Why Berachain is Becoming a Liquidity Powerhouse | Smokey the Bera

Transcript

and I think it's also important for the application layer and the the security layer or the protocol layer to have like a net positive Su relationship so I think at the end of the day we have to think about building a business right like yes you're building a chain but you're also building a decentralized franchise that's meant to exist for a very long time and be the base layer for everything to build on top of like if Microsoft was or apple did not think about how to actually become cash flow positive over time I don't think that would Age very well this episode is brought to you by Aries markets to learn more about Aries markets follow the link in the show notes below hey everyone quick disclaimer before we get into today's episode nothing said on bell curve is a recommendation to buy or

sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and the views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not Financial advice our guest and I may hold positions in the companies funds or projects discussed hey everyone welcome back to another episode of B curve we' got a great episode today Michael Vance and I brought on Smokey the bearer of bear chain Fame we're going to be talking all about some of the mechanics and the nitty-gritty getting into the weeds of be chain uh but before we do that want to give a quick shout out to digital asset Summit so this is the conference we've been putting on since 2019 it's the largest institutional conference in all of crypto it's happening March 18 through the 20th in New York this year got Muhammad allerian Michael sailor Kathy Wood Mike novag Gratz Brad

garlinghouse Anatoli yakovenko of salana among many others Richard Tang the CEO of binance so this one's goingon to be really good if you are on the institutional side at all in crypto I highly recommend that you get your tickets because the ticket prices are going up so click the link at the bottom of the show notes make sure that you get them um and now on to this conversation with Smokey which this was really great we got into the weeds of some of the BD tactics the community building efforts some of the mechanics around the dual token system obviously want to disclaim here that framework Michael advance or big investors in ver chain but this is a really fun conversation I hope you guys all enjoy it this great the outakes are gonna be [ __ ] great that's how we're going to start the Pod with that with that little line

right there all right everyone welcome back to another round up a bell curve this is a special one you got all the boys you got uh Michaels one and two Vance uh today we're joined by Smokey the beara fellas what's up BM thank you for having me BM bmbm boys how we doing big we big uh how long has it been since uh since main that launched 14 days dude yeah I've lost more or less all perception of time but apparently we're two weeks deep which is a always a pleasure always a pleasure I mean it's you launched it maybe the worst time uh that you could have launched and things are looking pretty good though I mean you know there there's blood in the streets and uh and I wish

to dance but I think that nonetheless um I'm glad they're live you know what I mean it was a long time coming and uh people are happy Smokey can you uh can we start actually with I think one thing that would be really interesting for the audience is we're we're obviously going to get pretty deep in the Weeds on on bar chain here but I would love to get a sense what is it like um as much detail as you can share uh what it is like to launch a token in the year of Our Lord 2025 so you know there have been all these reports about right like and we've talked about this uh you know Vance and Michael a little bit about um you know Sky what it was like getting listed on a centralized exchange so frankly everything from just like what the

listing process is like for a centralized exchange what are all the different ticks that you have to kind of line up to just what is like the strategy uh for setting tokenomics uh in today's day and age right like I think sentiment has shifted quite a bit over time in terms of what the allocation should look like between team and investors to community and how you incentivize people like bar chain has a really interesting incentive um mechanism and uh sort of set of infrastructures but yeah could you just give us like a high level like what is it like to launch a token today yeah man um lot A lot's unpacked there so I guess I'll try to go as top down as possible um I think internally one of the most important things is uh trying to keep a team sort of 10 degrees above the

Horizon um in that you know when things are going well you don't want to get too euphoric when things are going badly you don't want to fully crash out uh so pretty much when I when we had our our team meetings for the month leading up I'd say to to tge I'd pretty much end every you know team All Hands by being like okay rule number one don't crash out um and I think that that is is something that's important to hold true because lots of [ __ ] happens you'll have the last minute partner that flakes on something on the morning of our launch um you know we had private safe instances that you know teams are using to predeployment is like it's it's always it's it's more

of what variety of [ __ ] show have you signed up for um when it comes to listing strategies Etc I think that exchanges are very much in control right now no matter what people think um I think that for a period of time um you know the the hyper liquid spot listings we're seeing lots of of of you know traction there and I think they continue to do quite reasonably uh and that's certainly an interesting you know angler competition to look like look at over time but uh there's few things that replace the 200 million uses of Finance or the you know 70% that don't sell if up bit just the volume is [ __ ] insane right um so I think that what I have seen evolve is probably the playbooks that people use um and of course while trying to be respectful of ndas Etc a

lot of that comes down to on one hand um developing the right uh relationships with with listing exchange agents well ahead of time being able to show a series of linear data points so that it's not just like hey this is a Fly by Night grift you haven't heard of us four months ago now there's a Galaxy campaign pop off actually more of like hey you guys have probably seen this for a year or two there's linear data points to tell you that there's something real Happening Here uh there's an ecosystem they can start to follow there's many things that they can see as follow-up sources of business trading volume for them and I do believe that we were were quite successful in that aspect um I think that more and more um it is nearly impossible to find yourself getting a quote unquote Fair listing um or you

know direct listing on exchanges like binance unless you're a mem coin or CC stock Etc and I say that with lots of love and respect but like the the stakes are high and and they they are the house uh so I they have no issue um you know they have no issue making that known uh and of course one can play chicken um but there's also a lot of optionality because one of the other things about TG in the year of ourlore 2025 is that there's a lot of [ __ ] projects trying to go live um and I think the q1 is is pretty busy from what I've seen right we had story go live a couple days after us we had kaito earlier today thank you for the Yap drop boys um you know I think we're going to have vanisha in the next

little while like there's just a lot of these in motion and half them I've heard of I haven't which just goes to show volume right um begs the question of who the [ __ ] is bidding the tokens but I see that as a later me problem I think that the other things that that sneak up on you a lot or that you know we didn't think about a ton until it sort of became more and more prominent uh is a lot of folks will tell you like you know be careful about market makers and they'll rip your faces off which is entirely true um but very few people I think tell you about how custodians will rip your face off uh or the additional you know degrees of logistical um troubles that can come out from that especially if those custodians have vaults more physical infrastructure

so on so forth I think that becomes pretty important uh I think the token distribution methods yeah go ahead quick question when you say rip your face off do they generally charge like a percentage of the token Supply or something like that or what is the um there's a lot of different ways that it happens um you know the way that I think has been probably tried and tested the best is sort of a a token loan with a call option of sorts with sort of like a floor and a price at which they can exercise um over you know given time frame right so when I say rip your faces off it's more just like you know they have a lot of optionality in terms of what they do with those tokens over a given time frame I think there's lots of ways to to hold market makers honest or

to attempt to do so we use the folks at coin watch that allows to have a little bit more of an eye on their supply and how well they're they're filling certain spreads Etc uh but few systems are perfect you know what I mean maybe before we get too deep into the the nuances of listing launching whatever tokens what are kind of the high level stats of you know what bridge over to be a chain I mean what you guys were keeping track of because I think it's like there's almost four billion on the Chain today something like that yeah man so bunch of different stuff I think that we look at a couple things primarily um what I care about most at the end of the day our applications thriving our users actually coming over and using the chain uh I I think the transaction counts are

interesting and right now like our transaction count on a daily basis is higher than eth but I also think that that's a little bit of a meme at the same time because gas costs are relatively low surely people want to spam the network I'm sure there's people trying to you know fill blocks to win gas Wars to win X or Y prizes on lottery games type stuff right um the main things I'd say we looked at Advance were one when we look at actually people who are bridging tvl over so boyco brought over what was originally about 3.1 billion in tvl then closer to 2.6 as the market Drew Down uh and since then we've seen close to 700 $800 million of inflows um stable coins are pretty interesting to keep an eye on over here so I think there's close to 600 mil at

least that I know of off the top of stable lick um that's mostly just thinking about usdc and uh and PUSD which are some of the main Stables that are are finding homes on the Chain before we have some more of of our fair weather friends um there's also a non-trivial supply of uh of USD over there from boyo and we're starting to see more ecosystem native Stables like uh like neck for example that's from barabar a few more of these pop up the Frack guys are heading over in a little while Reserve USD Etc or Reservoir USD I should say so you know that that's pretty meaningful because I do think Stables are a good indicator of economic activity and just overall back and forth volume um the next big thing I'd say was actually you know just looking at some of the the activity on different daps

right um so Dolomite when the the major lending markets on the Chain just sort of hit across a billion in tvl which you think is insane uh completely organic uh supply side rate on bar right now is like 50 to 70% depending on when you look at it uh so that means you can get some pretty pretty gnarly yield on that alone um and then the other thing that we were looking looking at is uh is sort of yield going to people who are boosting or delegating their bgt and without getting two in the weeds it basically just gives an indication of like how much value is Flowing from the core applications enshrined into the chain to the people that are effectively providing the most value to the network as we see it in terms of liquidity provision uh and you know holding and delegating that bgt token that they get

as a result of liquidity provision if you look at maybe maybe just on that point I think it'd be helpful to understand like what is bgt what is Vera what is honey like let's just get the landscape of the different tokens in the ecosystem um as cont you got a man so Barra tries to keep it pretty vanilla you know gas token liquid token speculative token if you will of the network this is what validators use to stake at the most base level right so one uses Bara as they would use ethon mainnet um bgt which is perhaps a little bit on the nose named the bar governance token is really where things get a lot more interesting this is a non-transferable or soulbound token um that is only received by effectively providing liquidity to the network or

participating in what we call proof of liquidity uh and I'll get into a little bit more detail here but the thing to keep in mind really is that each validator on be chain effectively has has two portions if you will they have their Bara stake which basically determines how often they produce blocks um sort of like in a linear stake weighted Manner and they have their bgt delegation which determines the size of their block Awards and the vast majority of bgt emissions in the network actually go towards people who are providing liquidity the chain the the important thing to keep in mind with the I guess the concept to capture here is that in a very standard proof of stake Network you have inflation or block Awards going to The Valor set and their stakers right um in the case of bechain that inflation or

those block Awards via proof of liquidity is effectively being reinjected into the ecosystem and the applications on the chain in a manner that is determined by the validators on the network and the people delegating their bgt to them so you can think of it as a sort of a degree of I I wouldn't call it you know I would call it like a gaug like mechanics or curve like mechanics at the chain level right um so what that really means is that each validator can say hey when I win a block I'm pushing x% of my reward to pool a x% of my reward to pool B x% to pool C Etc uh and then you can sort of build more interesting markets around that um honey to touch on that very briefly is is quite simple um effectively just stable coin unit of stable measure of the

ecosystem starts out very um simple and Regulatory compliant more or less a a rapper for usdc and PUSD helping to defragment that liquidity um but we very much expect that to evolve a little bit over time to Encompass more stable coins and help defragment that liquidity uh and perhaps even you know evolve in terms of Economic Policy depending on what what governance does um so that's the the very high level lay of the land one thing I would add really quickly is that the interesting thing is that bgt entitles people to really I'd say do more on bear train in that I think it makes governance a lot less of a meme than we may have seen in the past uh and is perhaps the only uh useful governance token as a layer one network level um and what I mean by that is that it

effectively allows users or you know boosters and or delegates whatever you want to call it of the bgt uh to earn incentives and fees from applications that are living on the Chain being powered by Pro proof of liquidity and what that really means is that you get this symbiotic relationship between the application layer who's actually you know bringing users into the chain giving people things to do uh and the validator or security layer which is keeping the chain afloat so you know don't want to Rabbit Hole on that too hard before we before I handle any questions this episode is brought to you by Aries markets Aries markets deployed on app TOS in 2022 and is now the largest lending protocol with $280 million in tvl to learn more about AR's markets follow the link in the show notes below this episode is brought to you by marinade

marinade is a high performance staking delegation platform that brings both liquidity and security to the salana network by connecting Soul holders with the best staking rates on salana follow the Link in today's show notes to learn more I'm just C like it's such an interesting uh design and you know this is uh I think one of the things that some of the other proof of stake chains outside of ethereum have had to learn uh maybe some like like the cosmos chains I think this was a really big lesson which is uh there's kind of this idea that cos or adom the token was going to be this index of all the different airdrops for the consumer chains on the Hub um but people sort of found that actually the high stake rate is okay you could stake and you get this really high rewards but

then people weren't taking their coins and doing anything anything with them in defi right so there's this tradeoff this Capital efficiency tradeoff in between stake rates and people are pretty optimistic about liquid staking for that reason but that's never really taken off either um so can you just uh describe you know Smokey from your perspective of you know were there any other like the dual token model I think is trying to solve that right with like the soulbound bgt uh token um were there other sort of like how did you arrive on this particular design were there other trade-offs that you kind of evaluated here like I could almost imagine maybe like a really naive design would just be um like a native LST mechanism at the validator level where you know you redirect lsts into different apps um so can can you kind of like walk us through

how you arrived at this particular design and then I want to get into like how you thought about which apps to be native and the trade-off between you building it versus encouraging other people to come in and build yeah 100% um I think that a lot of that has has certainly evolved in our thought process over time right uh on one hand when we you know conceived of the whole idea of like you know be chain in terms of bar and bgt uh close to three years ago um it looked a little bit more like sort of these like ve locking mechanisms like curves uh to to a degree of like enforcing locking right and we thought to ourselves over time as we saw that metosa play out we're like this is just delaying cell pressure I think this just turns into something that uh you know

becomes a Messier compounding problem in the future maybe we shouldn't lean into what feels like a little bit of an archaic meta um that has already sort of done its its one trick to some point no disrespect to curve to be clear I think they built a great D5 primitive but uh to be very clear I don't think that one could like run that same Playbook of lock your [ __ ] up for four years easily uh and see the same degree of traction right now right so I think that was one thing we thought a lot about Capital flexibility in terms of being able to turn that one bgt into one Bara at any point in time um so that was part of what influenced that design and thought process um I think the other part that we wanted to really enforce was to not

have like a weird way of of working around the process of providing liquidity right because I think what we just saw was so many of these proof of stake chains that had hundreds of millions if not billions of dollars securing the network and like you know doing their thing in the valer set but the chain is absolutely a ghost chain right and the simplest solutions that seem to be okay well let's make the only way that you get or you know the the vast majority of of these tokens going towards liquidity provision right um I I think to answer your actual question though Mike there's like a few different ways we could have skinn that cat uh this just seemed like the one is probably the the most balanced in terms of usable and potentially integratable into wider you know in institutional adoption methods in terms of you know

you can still earn a small amount of bgt by staking Bara but it's effectively a fraction um as in like sub 10% kind of thing compared to what you get by providing liquidity um so you know you get a little bit of optionality and at the same time it ends up being a mechanism that's pretty well understood by the vast majority of people participating in anything on chain um and this whole idea of liquidity provision is really I'd say the the core core aspect of defi as a whole right I think a lot of things just sort of revolve around that and end up being derivatives of liquidity provision in some form or the other yeah there was a actually an early idea I don't know if you ever looked at like I think Super fluid staking uh Sunny from yeah yeah but this kind of what

that reminds me of a little bit as well it's like the like the unit of yeah it's R for folks who weren't familiar with that idea is reversing the order of doing an LSD and then going into an uh like lping on an AMF it was taking your LP from an amm and then creating a just reversing the order there but the other thing I I would say that's interesting from just p and just the amount of assets that are on chain today so there's a single lending protocol called Dolomite which has a billion in tvl today uh you can borrow eth at 0.01% you can borrow usdc at 0.16% and the lending markets are super deep like you can borrow probably 80 to $100 million of size from this and I think this kind of

like speaks to what probably is like an emerging meta or something that's just taken a break for a while which is like um looping is always the killer use case of emerging blockchains like you saw that with steth growing where instead of getting like you know a thousand new customers they just took the existing 100 you know customers and gave them 10x leverage on their Ste like rwas and and frankly like other you know private credit plays like those are going to be prime looping candidates as well as just like ecosystem native applications and I think what you're going to see is like I mean I tweeted this today but like eth and Bara right now are the two deepest lending markets in crypto like that's a huge structural Advantage as things move from like kind of like a meme coin like a swapping

Centric Market to something that's a bit more leverage focused especially as the Bor rates in trafi comes down like the lending markets on these chains are only going to get bigger and bigger um so I think that's just something interesting to point out uh just like the lending markets on Barrow are competitive with Ethan that's about it in crypto but like maybe like tying it all together I mean thinking about what investors want in terms of l1s today it seems to be like a super aligned ecosystem with apps run the same direction as the chain you know no instances where like an app is making more fees than the chain I think that's one obviously like lowc cost High throughput you know you don't want

retail to you know be forced off the chain that that's kind two I think like a solid investor base is three just like you've seen the difference between like a k Le ecosystem and and like a more of a VC or like Community L ecosystem but like what what else do people seem to like in Vera or just like kind of this new complex you've created yeah I mean I think one thing that people have leaned into the most kind of ties back to your Fus Point Advance which is like the applications in the ecosystem are more aligned than anywhere before right and it's not just hey we've got this retroactive grants program it's it's not just like hey I know a guy who knows a guy and he gave this dude some advisory tokens it's it's very much hey like there's an actual you

know base layer mechanism for the chain to drive value to the applications and that is relatively inescapable and you know sort of going towards what what you know Mike I said before right like it's not it's not quite just a native LST it's actually just the chain functions by powering its applications and bgt AC Cru value by those applications passing some degree of of incentives or value or their own tokens back to the chain right so both sides are capital efficien Z maxing and both sides are aligned towards their own outcomes I think one one clarifying point just because I think it's useful is how does the bgt and we didn't really touch on this exactly but like you're earning bgt by staking your Bara it's a non-transferable token you can swap the

bgt for Bara but what do you get to do with bgt in Pro of liquidity and like you just touched on the incentives model and and we kind of like what the next phases are of growth for bar chain but uh I know applications and having applications launch and go main net uh is is one of the big hurdles that you guys are working towards but like how does that interact with bgt yeah 100% And that's that's a great question man um so you know the biggest and most important thing that you can do with bgt is actually boost a validator and or choose to delegate to a different validator and this is where people can very much get opinionated because they've earned that bgt in one of two ways either they've provided liquidity in a venue that is already receiving effect L you know P emissions right now

that's just the chain de or the the native beex as we call it which is meant to just be a safe simple sort of bootstrapping ground as possible uh or they've staked their bear with like an LST or like a natively through a validator and they're earning you know a very much a fraction of that lping yield so somehow they've got some bgt they're figuring out what to do next um each of these validators effectively has their own cutting board or pie chart which basically dictates what happens whenever they win a block and which pools they're choos using to to push those emissions towards across Network so it could be the borrow side of theath Market on doite like Vance mentioned earlier it could be a stable pool in the decks right it could be a more spicy concrete type derivatives protocol that's trying to sort of get off the ground and start

flywheel and what will ultimately dictate where most validators likely end up pushing their emissions uh ends up being the free market which is to say that these different protocols on the Chain will actually incentivize validators in a first come first s serve style order book saying hey I'm willing to pay you know 10 units of my token in exchange for five units of BT or whatever that might be um and if a Valor effectively chooses to change their cutting board or their pie chart if you will to that you know distribution then they start earning a portion of those incentives from those applications effectively requ like replacing a traditional liquidity mining type protocol and then Distributing the vast majority of those applications rewards to their delegates so that means that you can have valers that sort of end up

very opinionated and say hey I'm going to take super low low risk bets I'm only going to accept incentives in the form of like stable coins or I'm going to Nuke whatever I have into stable coins or bar or something and then distribute that to our jates um you could have sort of venture style valuers that say Hey I'm going to incentivize a whole bunch of these more like longtail assets and these new projects coming up on the Chain like ye and barad Drome and Dolomite and Kodiak and exponents and so on so forth um and you know hope that these tokens all Giga send and that I get to participate in that upside um and I expect you'll have folks to try to operate close to like you know hedge funds or ETFs as well and that some of them might just try to denominate into

Majors some of them might actually try to apply their own trading strategies to some of those profits Etc right so um at the end of the day to to really answer your question Mike it means that the valuators are receiving incentives from the applications in exchange for choosing to push part of their block Rewards or effectively inflationary rewards of the network towards those applications which are in turn passed on to those applications users so it's kind of like a reversing I would say of the expectations where you know the fees are generated by the applications they're stored within the treasuries of the applications they're paying fees down to you know in the form of the gas token down to the blockchain that they're built on top of and the inflationary rewards are going to the validators who are securing that Network and basically proliferating those those

applications this basically turns it around and says you point your bgt at the application that boost then effectively gives that application more Bara as as a form of you know compensation for the inflationary rewards uh and you basically you get compensated by the token and and sort of the the boosted amount that the applications want to deliver to whoever is boosting you know their their apps yeah I mean the the way to think about it like Equivalent Exchange wise is that the valider set has to point their bgt somewhere so they point that bgt towards the applications that are willing to in turn push part of their native tokens or whatever tokens they're willing to incentivize in towards those applic uh towards that validator right because

that effect just means that the validator can say hey I'm going to take call option on you guys and and help support um perhaps that validator has a number of large LPS who have boosted or delegated towards it that want to effectively autoc compound their own yields in a pool that they're in right um and that application then basically says okay instead of doing sort of like this open-ended liquidity mining program where I'm going to pair my token against Bara and then emit a whole bunch more bar or something like or my own token Etc um they ask you to say hey I'm G to give some of my token to this validator and they're going to give a whole bunch of emissions to my pool and you know in in a perfect world we see that Gap um getting as close to one or at some point

you know positive sum as possible Right applications are always going to want to incentivize with you know 0.8 and get $1 back worth of emissions and the chain over time would love to be able to see that get to the point where it's one: one or 1.1 to1 Etc right and that's sort of how you end up with with a degree of positive unit economics for the system um the other interesting element there is like you know the most basic and and the standard version of P I'd say is sort of that exchange between tokens and tokens as in you know native application tokens going to a validator bgt going to an applications pool um but that can also be in the form of fees and I think that's where it gets very interesting and even more sustainable where an app kicks back some portion of its fees to

the validator in an exchange that validator is pushing more bgt rewards to the app right so that you can sort of end up with that turbo cycle so Smokey zooming out for a second I think maybe uh you know some of the some of the historical problems that l1s have run into that bar train is trying to solve is one the sort of the capital efficiency problem at the validator level the alignment challenge in between um l1s and the applications that are built on them you see this in ethereum oh this is extractive and I'm sure when apps start earning revenue on salana it's gonna be the same thing um so sort of that balance right um and then ultimately this sort of um this kind of ve uh toonomic design which actually you know we talked about curve and maybe convex a little bit uh but actually the

original uh the sort of design here was actually Bitcoin right like curve was directly inspired by Bitcoin and you know when I think about the Bitcoin design and the curve design and you know what you're describing with bar chain as well is there's a certain amount of like reflexivity as well which is you know the Bitcoin in order for the security budget right to be um you know paid you either need transactions or the price of the token needs to go up same thing with curve and the gauge and I'm wondering how you view would it be fair to say basically there's some amount of reflexivity baked into the bar ecosystem where if the beer price is going up everyone's getting paid um in their Bea uh and like that's that's good right you actually want people to be like Tethered to this like kind of reflexive asset but

I guess the negative would be if barah started to go down and then their reward emissions like were worthless and so apps were less motivated is that like roughly a fair thing would you describe it as reflexive system or is that a a wrong sort of take no no like I think you've got a good grasp on it in that there's a degree reflexivity I don't think it's like you know shocking to to your reflexivity um but I think the roller coaster has a couple bumps um the way I'd see this is that there's a couple things that that we expect to to dampen those effects um one is some kind of cool stuff that I know different governance teams are working on that involves almost a degree of like re uh of of um responsive inflation or responsive staking rates for Bara and bgt um which is to say in times of

economic contraction you're going to want to incentivize people to stake more bar right and sort of stabilize that Network and create a little bit of that sync um this is by no means in place yet the Network's still very much in its nency so I see this as something that's you know a couple quarters down the road but something that's pretty interesting from an economic policy point of view um another concept which I'm quite bullish on personally is just this idea of um sort of uh creating a range-bound incentive system that effectively helps match the degree of inflation with the amount of incentives actually flowing into the system right such that you know if that incentive rate spikes massively and and apps are bribing like mad and all of a sudden the cash flows going to bgt are sort of like 1.2 1.5 to one then

maybe the inflation increases whereas if it you know is falling off a cliff and that in inflation decreases a little bit I think that's how you actually end up with a little bit more of that dampening effect um I do think it's important to have a meaningful distribution phase in a time in which the network just sort of like pathf Finds Its way to what um a stable incentive base looks like because really that is what will control or dictate a lot of that reflexivity um I think the second part of that equation I'd say Mike is sort of what I was referring to with with with with framework mik which is to say that apps pushing fees towards validators also becomes a lot more sustainable in that sense because then it's not necessarily just the value of their token emissions it's okay cool if people are selling

still racking up fees and that helps to serve as a little bit of a cushion for that value cruel mechanism so like my tldr here is I expect some degree of reflexivity I just don't expect like Unholy reflexivity maybe um just talking like more specifically about like you know po obviously like there's a permissionless forum there's a for that's like working towards permissionless um are there any things that you can tease in terms of like maybe base level Primitives that you're aiming to incentivized first versus second versus third or or yeah just like any context would be great well I think on one hand it's it's one where I personally can't be overly

opinioned because like my role in governance is is pretty much zero right I talk to the teams um I talk to folks and figure out what they're planning on putting forward to various forums so I have a little bit of a barometer on what I think is going to be out there but in terms of actually saying hey this is going to happen versus this isn't going to happen no [ __ ] clue funnily enough I actually haven't gotten my tokens from custody yet I should probably do that at some point but in any case like oh yeah I was like yo I hear insiders are dump thing where are my [ __ ] coins but in any case uh what I what I would say is that uh you know I know folks that you know leaning into what Vance was saying earlier uh and without

being too corny like you know give me some leverage and you know give me a lever and I'll I'll move the Earth kind of thing I think I think that there's definitely going to be applications that lean into that and turboing it with po um I think there's probably going to be some derivatives type groups that try to get off the ground because I think that PL is probably one of the best fits for these derivative protocols that rely on a conent stream or sort of velocity of capital going in and out so things like spicy perss credit defaults prediction markets that kind of stuff uh and then I think it's like well-known models that uh require emphasis at certain points so your your sort of cdps your Amo type products I expect to see a lot of those so as I see it it'll be def Primitives

then sort of spicy defi Primitives then sort of weirder consy stuff that'll use PL to almost incentivize certain actions within that application and and what's the what's like I mean the end state of this in my mind at least is like the fees that are associated with bar chain are going to be the lending fees the swapping fees the pers fees like the fees from basically all applications are going to Encompass the valuation of bar Chain versus eth where it's like those are all kind of their own separate tokens and their own separate valuation Frameworks but like it feels like it's possible for you to get to like multiple billions of dollars of chain you know fees in pretty short order here and that's like kind of

dovetailing on this trend which you started of just like apps with INR or chains with enshrined apps and Shrine liquidity yeah I mean 100% right like I think there's certain words that that my GC would like me to use and would not like me to use so I'll be cognizant of what I what I do say herec [ __ ] I know but but I do think that it's important for like it's important for someone to have a reason uh to hold a non-transferable soulbound token uh that Acres value in a network right and I think it's also important for the application layer and the the security layer or the protocol layer to have like a net positive sum relationship uh so I think at the end of the day we have to think about building a business right

like yes you're building a chain but you're also building a decentralized franchise that's meant to exist for a very long time and be the base layer for everything to build on top of like if Microsoft was or apple did not think about how to actually become cash flow positive over time I don't think that would Age very well um so our goal over here is to get to a point of sustainability right and I think that is a function of having the best applications that really do end up seeing a degree of product Market fit and then having those apps be so successful that they're able to drive value to the chain itself uh and create a bit of a virtuous cycle there yeah and I think that there is sort of like a fine line between like enshrining too much and enshrining nothing which is why we've tried to be

relatively light in terms of our opinionation there um sort of just basic def5 Primitives to start which is why we sort of mentioned you know the beex that's there so that people have a very uh simple safe battle tested design and and place to start earning bgt to start be a lending Market over time Etc and I think we work our way then into the more exotic stuff that you know isn't meant to be hogged by the chain it's actually very much just meant to be there um such that there's a standard that's Set uh in fact like you know I think that it's much better that we have some degree of been shrin out applications uh in terms of that back spend Etc as opposed to just having the ecosystem be home to like 20 different shitty Unis swamp and a forks and having people wonder okay

which one am I going to get rugged on which these is actually going to survive at some point I would almost rather like have a little bit of that that you know mini fed state to start such that the people that actually excel in the future have had to like surpass that that you know enshrined bar of performance if you will do you uh I'm very curious bookie over time um you know how how do you view the trade-off I mean I know you're just kind of getting into that there a little bit but you know it's been interest and I think you've seen maybe a trade-off here even in between you know something like uh ethereum which is very infrastructure heavy and it's very reliant on sort of uh third party or the private Market to make Solutions versus honestly even like a more monolithic

sort of design where a lot of this is kind of built into the functionality of the L1 and I feel like enshrined applications are the next Natural Evolution of this um how do you view the tradeoff in between or maybe could you get a little bit more granular in terms of how you the decks feels like the obvious one to me um but how did you kind of look at past the decks into these the different applications that um we would want to enshrine and what are the plans for enshrining in the future slash is the expectation that you think that eventually private Market actors will out compete you or do you expect like Becks to be the dominant one into the future I mean I would hope that private Market actors out compete us over time and that the Beck spend Etc very much serve as like baselines or

like fallbacks if you will right you know safe refuge in in a in a wild storm if you if you get what I'm saying um I think when we when we balance that equation it's actually kind of funny when we started working on bear chain FTX was still a thing and we're just like man it' be so cool if we built like an onchain FTX as a chain of sorts and you'd be able to like you know Swap and go long on stuff and like you know leverage against things Etc without thinking twice and it would all be interconnected and beautiful uh turned out that was like not very feasible in a centralized or decentralized manner as we we came to learn um but that did Inspire some for initial choice in terms of Primitives in terms of having like a DEX lending platform pers Etc um because

we very much thought these as like the most basic things or the I'd say the standard set of activities that people do onchain or for that matter kind of offchain as well right um we weren't going to go in there and say hey we need to build like the options protocol and the yield Swap and like the nft marketplace and the naming service or many other you know weird spicy cash cows uh it was more like hey let's build out the the basic primatives that people can use as building blocks for a little bit of everything else right so I think that's very much the the same opinion that we take right now um you know not trying to to not trying to black out the screens and and leave no space for people to innovate but rather um help help create a baseline for the products

that are normally taken over by grifters uh and then use that such that people can actually build around that or ideally you know out compete it uh and then enshrine something that allows the free market to have to out compete that as well because right now right um 50% of the lp fees from the beex are going towards bgt holder or you know bgt boosters affected right which is powering right now like 150% yields for people who are just boosting their bgt which is like insane all paid out in Honey the stable coin the Eco um but what I'd love to see and what I expect to see over time is more and more of these applications saying okay cool we're going to kick back 20% or 30% or whatever it is of our fees plus incentives in the form of our native token and that's why this validator is

going to push these emissions to me instead of the deex right so I think that's sort of like the both the social and Technical contract we want to enforce over time quick shout out to today's sponsor Aries markets Aries markets deployed on apts in 2022 and is now among the top 10 lending protocols across all blockchains with $280 million of tvl Aries markets has expanded its product Suite to become a fully integrated defi Hub combining lending borrowing and More in 2024 alone Aries introduced several new features to better meet the needs of its users including native usdt support an incentive program and more click the link at the bottom of the show notes head over to Aries markets and tell them that I sent you hey everyone quick shout out to today's sponsor marinade since

launching in 2021 marinade has expanded their Suite of product to provide solutions for both defi users and trafi including liquid and Native staking as well as direct Enterprise Integrations marinades platform is optimized for institutions to securely expand their exposure to salana whether through the provisioning of custodial or non-custodial yield integrating staking rewards into salana Financial products or leveraging marinades best and Market rewards rate for revenue and treasury management whether you're in defi trafi or somewhere in between marinade has something for you to learn more about marinade follow the link in today's show notes can you talk a bit more about honey and its role in the ecosystem yeah man Honey's had many rules over time on

one hand great meme like I think people like honey um at one point the the tagline was honey is money and then legal was like you cannot [ __ ] say that and I was like honestly that's very fair which is why I'm quite heavily and then at another point there was someone who was who was posting non-stop that honey needs to go to $5 and I was like maybe that's not quite right either but uh I think that you know to to seriously answer your question I think stable coins are one of the most powerful forces within crypto or defi as a whole I think they're one a few things that have real adoption um and I think they're one of few things that will probably survive regardless of what happens to the industry over 10 20 or whatever her time Horizon right um we

often found that as many people you know go to a new chain um their Stables are super [ __ ] fragmented you'll have 20 different Bridges and you'll have 20 different versions of usdc you know usdt if you're lucky and then you know fra and whatever else might be alongside there die so on so forth um and the original thought was honey would be a little bit more of like a a meta aggregator of sorts of these Stables um such that they can still find a a home if you will um that being said you know a stable is only as strong or a meta stable is only as strong as its weakest link uh and we also like to be regulator compliant so honey very much starts with the most basic stables in terms of usdc and py USD which we think is pretty

interesting from a long-term point of view because um despite you know masc creating as cartoon Bears on the internet um for the you know most part the guys that at beain including myself were suits in a past life and spend most of our time in VC PE building companies in the valley probably not too far where you are right now uh and we think a lot about how this actually goes beyond the the Ponzi games on the internet which lots of fun like again I wouldn't trade for the world but I also think there's a point where if you want to be the next ethereum the next Bitcoin the next salana I don't know if you be the next Bitcoin you know what I mean if you want to be the next chain that makes it out the hood um then you actually have to

find a way to get into people's hands and stable coins are one of the the most you know tried andr ways of actually getting a degree of under the hood institutional adoption whether that is you know hilarious Shopify type Integrations whether that's integration to PayPal type payment apps whether that's these e-commerce layers um or you know if one was to look at the defi angle getting more complex Lex and sort of floating interest rates at Capital efficient designs over time which can then go back to that whole thesis of how do you make the chain cash flow positive right so we see those as the two routes like honey is either you know institutional penetration or number grow up technology in a in a sustainable manner um Smokey that uh so as Vance was describing like one of the uh

superpowers of defi or what something that an activity that drives an enormous amount of transactions and fees is looping um as it reminds me a little bit just having a discussion with Lio announced their V3 and Constantine and hu came on and talked about this and uh he mentioned looping is one of the core uh features that or like use cases that they were trying to enable what has the profile of the average Looper changed over time like I me one thing that uh and just getting a little back bit back in the Weeds on defi in general um and it feels like actually looping is has become much more institutionalized like I'd always thought of Loopers as basically like kind of 2021 like d you know Meme coins didn't exist yet and maybe pre nfts people were kind of like

ripping these loops and getting liquidated and you know making a lot of money or losing a lot of money but it seems like it's actually gotten much more professional um and just the sophistication so can you just describe you know I think people kind of have this picture in their mind of like a 2021 retail Looper but has it gotten more instit like what is how's that changed over the years you think dude massively so in fact funnny enough um not long before I got on this call I was talking to the guys who have been uh the guys who are effectively The Firm that helps manage the the largest borrowers borrowers of of ethon a um because they've been diving deeper into the ecosystem helping deploy assets including PUSD Etc uh and we were just talking about different liquid opportunities on the chain and I was

like dude you guys should check out Dolomite because like you got some gnarly Loops over there uh and the fact of the matter is that as more and more yield bearing assets find their way on chain and in sustainable and and battle tested ways um which I'd say has primarily been eth and and Staples at the moment so think you're Athena you know something to something usual Etc types uh you you get these Loopers coming in in in droves because they're getting you know many many multiples over their their standard T bill rates and their risk profile really isn't that far off um at least if they're ready willing to be on chain in some way right um so I think that we're seeing more and more people either doing institutional earn programs through these Sexes or Asset Management firms or even hedge fund

types um and playing with very like battle tested assets here I don't think we see we've been going anywhere for quite some time I think it's also been a quite a while since we've seen like a a lending market like you know massively blow up um so maybe that's why people are a little bit more risk on in that sense as well um but the tldr is I think the average Looper is more likely like a family office or institutional type player than it is a d gen nowadays uh at least if you if you wait by by size and and I would also say like some of the real world asset stuff that's like further out on the curve like specific um they're deploying on bar chain they're excited about bar chain and like you know it's not like bar

chain was built with the the institutional audience in mind necessarily but Po and the Deep lending markets make it like the only place that you can really Deploy on where you're like okay I'm going to Garner enough liquidity where I can actually start to Loop and like that's what these rwa projects need so like they're the institutions are coming whether they kind of like it or not the institutions will come to the chain with a bear on it and uh I think the other reason that they might come home uh is is UN ironically Bitcoin right um this has been a little bit of a meme and like I think it's still a little bit controversial at this point in time and you know jury's out but I do think that the ability to stake Bitcoin and do something with that is

interesting um you know I think that Vance and the framework guys are involved in babyon as well uh and I think Bitcoin security is something that will either you know change the game entirely or completely flop I'm hoping for the former uh and I'd say that right now there's probably close to a billion if not more of staked Bitcoin type denominated assets on bechain and when you think about that combination right you've got the most hardened asset in history that is being treated by like digital gold and having every pundit talk about it and having everyone you know who wants to get exposure to crypto play with it uh starting to have a zero to one yield Source from securing other chains or securing LTS Etc right and um well I do think that there is a large task of of finding enough people that

want Bitcoin security I think that the ability to have you know over 1% let's say or even over 0.5% yield on bitcoin and then Loop that will be absolutely insane for some of these folks that are you know meaningfully risk off uh and looking for opportunities on assets they already hold uh and if you find a way to do that with Native Bitcoin in some manner which is already sort of built into some of these Solutions then you just you know you have an Unholy you know Triple Decker sandwich of of good Tech uh so I think that's one of the other things that's that's on my radar as a as an exciting opportunity that can be uniquely turbocharged on bear chain uh because you know you juice won those looping you know won those loops with with some P rewards and uh and you can

take that to the bank for for Smokey that's Chipotle on Chipotle on Chipotle oh baby yeah Chen on Chicken on chicken conversation um what what what is founder mode when you're launching a chain dude that's that's a good question um I think the term founder mode corny as [ __ ] to be very honest if I was a start it's pretty good it's good but the problem is it's like it's much like when um it's much like when SoundCloud DJ is like big things coming big things coming it's it's when it gets taken over by a bunch of of like the Lars and maybe I'm lar too [ __ ] but like you know when it gets taken over by a bunch of people

then you're like man I do not want to be in founder mode i' would like to be like cooking perhaps um you know actually what we have is my my team I I I I kept on saying in many places you know give me the rat give me the hat and I'm going cook these [ __ ] so my team got me a a Ratatouille uh headband come come to use every now and then uh but I think founder mode is is uh is being on top of literally every last [ __ ] thing and not forgiving yourself if you miss something uh that is that is sort of what it boils down to which is to say you have to be on one hand crash out police with a team who are managing a number of different things you know we had Jack thinking

about how to make sure the $3 billion do gets moved over to the chain safely without rpcs leaking and coordinating with a hundred different you know parties to effectively make that happen which was insane and uh an anxiety inducing for all parties it's making sure that all the calms are happening at the right times whether that be with exchanges who like to bombard you with different asks on the last minute uh and the night before at 3: am or whether that just be with you know Partners who are going to be important whether that's oracles or safe or you know tenderly whatever you might have um I think it's making sure that the community is aware of what's going on and that there's crisis Communications that if [ __ ] goes wrong there's a way to handle it uh I I think it's it's basically just like

extreme ownership is my take on this um as in something goes wrong you [ __ ] the bed something doesn't go wrong you probably still [ __ ] the bed you just don't know about it yet um and then cleaning up the messes along the way that's that's sort of what it boils down to for me this episode is brought to you by Moro Moro is the first and only defi protocol coinbase has integrated directly into their main app giving millions of users access to borrow against their Bitcoin on coinbase just as web 2 companies like Google Amazon and meta were built on internet protocols the largest financial companies of the future such as coinbase will build on decentralized protocols like Moro whether you're an individual fund fintech or institution Moro is for you follow the link in today's show

notes to try Moro today spooky what do you think uh uh on the can you just like peel back the curtain on what it's like to do kind of like BD and like courting applications these days like I'm very curious uh actually Michael Vance and I were talking a little while AG I think like the major l1s that have made it one of the common themes they have is there's like a specific type of guy that you can think of when it comes to that ecosystem right like like bitcoin's like the macro Doomer eth is kind of like The Optimist the like Sala maybe he's a little bit more pragmatic or something like that you know I'd be curious almost when you're thinking of you know when you close your eyes and you think about the ideal person or participant of be chain like what does that look like and

actually Victor brunin wrote a great post about how the BD meta is changing for l1s and is kind of moving up in the life cycle of the of the L1 product so maybe we could start with kind of like the maybe Fier question of like what ises a like a be chain ecosystem person look like in your mind and then we can get into some of the tactics yeah yeah uh We've thought about this a fair bit I think the answer that keeps on coming to mind is like [ __ ] Savant uh in that like they're they're pretty far left curve and they're they're not too far off on the right curve either uh that like look the perfect balance it's the Goldilocks of curve yeah like like they kind of got like that that horseshoe Theory going and that listen there's definitely something wrong with them um

but they're quite good at what they do uh and I think that that has probably been the most prevalent trait um and that if you look like you know at some of the most prevalent apps in the be chain ecosystem there's like the Honey Jar um and you know Janny for example who has his own massive following and and sort of cult status in the ecosystem he refers to himself in third person and has you know and communicates in in like this like you know squeaky Jenny voice and it's It's the funniest thing but he's also built I'd see the the closest thing to a super team type type octopus meets like Atomic Labs type product studio uh that's building everything from Community perks aggregators to entertainments to lsts to like you know I'd say questing programs Etc just all these levels of ecosystem support um and

the dude just comes off as a complete clown car if you if you haven't spent that much time talking to him and then if you actually dive into the weeds you're like holy [ __ ] like buddy thinking um so like there's guys like that there's guys like Lord peni from yeet who communicates again sometimes in third person and sometimes just goes on a spaces and says Yeet for like 5 minutes straight um but is built quite a thoughtful like bonding system Plus onchain game of sorts and has built a pretty interesting Community around that as well so like I I think that you get the folks who um will probably be passed over from the first time if you look at them from a purely traditional lens um but will be the people that you fomo into later uh I think that's probably the the most you know the the deepest

commonality I've noted um so like I I know I think I may have discussed this Advance before it's kind of like if you took like there there's little Parts where it's like if you took people in the bass ecosystem and kind of like deep fried them and skito them a little bit um but also added some like more interesting twists uh I think that's a lot of the the bar chain energy it's a little countercultural in a sense right yes but like you need the Cyber Punk values you do man that like what are we doing right like I don't think it's the basement dwellers and the guys who are like scaring girls of the party but I do think it's the people who are like probably a little bit socially awkward until they get two or three drinks from them uh and then kind of like you know

have some pretty cool stuff to say after that maybe they really like keyboards I don't know I love it um all right so we've got the got yeah hope you're uh not heating aive under there that's your soldier for the whole pod I'm not bad it's pretty funny actually so I guess in the like the BD trenches uh and for those who haven't read the Victor boonen post his his idea was kind of in the beginning there was like almost no BD for something like Bitcoin right and ethereum was very organic and then uh and then there was more of a coordinated BD function um which happened once the chain went live and then I think you guys and like like Barett chain and maybe manad as well did a did a pretty good job of moving it up even a little bit further in the life

cycle and you guys were a big Presence at eth Denver events um you know with kind of parties and Gatherings and hack and stuff like that pretty early like well before the chain launch so you know talk to us a little bit about that strategy and then also um yeah what it's what the pipeline kind of looks like for app devs and users and whatnot out there in the world today yeah for sure um I think that the the simple answer is if you don't you know go out and tell them that it exists no one gives a [ __ ] in most cases like there there was a one point this thesis where it's like if you build it they will come and then people tried that and they're like wait where are where where are the the people who were supposed to come uh so we we

realized that I think relatively early um and you know part of our gift and cursor is that we just like didn't have a chain for so long that we had to do BD because like well what the [ __ ] else are we going to do like talk about how we don't have a chain um so you know got out there messaging people in the in the right Trent interest in Brooklyn or uh and deep quarters of Discord and the internet and telegram uh and tried to meet the most uh you know sharp apds that there were in some cases that was a matter of like finding communities that that sharp people congregated around uh especially when that was sort of like defi leaning and then sort of following the like Network trees a little bit farther down right so I think that was perhaps uh the attitude that we took

which is very much the opposite of Les Affair um in the earlier days I sort of had kpis for different members of our ecosystem or BD team in terms of sort of like the number of calls they should be having and I I think that that has some degree of use but It ultimately falls off cliff at some point if you're just like filling a calendar for the sake of filling calendar we eventually managed to refine that from like okay we've gone super wide to you know there are these different tiers of teams there's some groups who we think have lots of potential let's double down and really spend as much time and effort on them as possible um of course there's a base degree of support to be provided to anyone looking to build an ecosystem um but there's only so many resources and at some point

in time you have to be a little bit more opinionated and say hey look like if our ecosystem wins it's probably going to be as a result of these 20 to 25 daps let's say that are really going to make it or break and and you know catch that virality if you will um qu question on on this process just to double click into two points number one you know you're building the chain as you're also doing BD how did you guys think about like collecting I mean in a lot of ways the application developers are your customers uh and it's not a pure comp but if you were to say you know listening to your customers is like what you need to do during product development like how much was the feedback fourth of like talking to the infrared guys about how to build staking

and staking mechanics and like what they needed and like how much of it was just like hey here's what we're building and like if you guys want to build like you should build look I think I I wish we did did more of this over time um I think we did an okay job but we could have certainly done better in terms of having like that that iterative you know product development cycle I think in many cases we just set the expectations too soon for ourselves so many times it felt like we were in like an infinite game of catchup um and even now it does feel like that a little bit to some extent right but I think where we were able to to outperform was by identifying the tooling and the you know basic pieces of infrastructure that each of these teams needed and making sure that we had all

of that set up and locked in ahead of time such that it's not like hey I'm waiting you know months or weeks for that matter for the infrastructure I need to build my dap that I normally have on Main net whether that's like your gelato your you know account abstraction Solutions or you know can I use hardat or Foundry whatever it might be um it was very much all that stuff is ready and outside the box um there's just definitely certainly things where I would have loved to have like iterated more on teams along the way on Stak and design Etc if we had more time um so I'd say like you know we covered our Basics and some in terms of infro but we could have been even better at it and and then equivalently as were thinking about like the universe of potential applications

and and developers of applications where you like all right we need someone to go off and build like I don't know heno who's gonna do like pump pun comp or or was it just like hey let's go find Founders and like listen to all their ideas like how do you approach it yeah I think it's almost like two buckets really on one hand and and I find that like almost every team has has something a little bit missing right sometimes you get you find a sick founder who like yeah this person's going to [ __ ] like no matter what they do they're going to [ __ ] but they have no good ideas and you're like well [ __ ] we got to find that part um other times you find you know a great idea and you're like man this team's kind of lackluster or you

know something needs to be upskilled here and I feel like the vast majority of the folks we found were in like one of those two buckets uh and then we just basically did our best to help Empower them in whatever manner that needed to be right um so I I I think that those if I had to like just categorize schools of thought and then there's a whole bunch of stuff in the middle and and a wide you know variety of spectrums there but um I think that the one ones that I tend to bet on Founders more than ideas to start and I I don't think that's like you know terribly contrarian in early stage crypto early stage investing as a whole um so in most cases it's just like yeah this person has like incredible amounts of of of dog in them I should

probably just you know try to throw ideas at them until something sticks uh and in many cases this ends up being like a team slash a a like hive mind type effort where there'll be like a builder group and people will toss ideas around or I'll be chatting with you know one of our investors or you know just a large user on Network or a friend and they'll say hey is someone building this yet I'm like oh not a bad idea should see if we can get someone building that so I think it's it's what we're trying to do over time is almost have like more and more of a repository of strong Founders and strong ideas sitting around such that as you know opportunities pop up we can help slot those forward um at the end of the day I think a lot of

these will just come about as a result of like you know of almost um entropy in a in a positive direction I should hope um but at the same time you know sometimes you want to be able to play a little more of like a guiding role there and builda bear is another ecosystem for this as well you've got it so like builda bear is sort of like arms length accelerator incubator um that you know spun off from the foundation um run by the guys uh you know Sammy who used to he basically take points on daero super sharp guy and one of the guys I trust the most when it comes to just mechanism design and and being an ideas guy if you will and the whole thesis of bbear is like hey like you know every let's say three to six months um let's find a way

to to really help prop up you know basically a te up to five different Builder teams from within the ecosystem sometimes there folks that will you know run with an idea that that Sammy might have had other times and I'd say much more commonly it's like hey here's someone who's building something that we think is kind of cool uh and has a real chance of being unique zero to one and some that we haven't seen before um let's do our best to really help these guys as much as we can in terms of access to you know capital in terms of you know introductions in terms of figuring out how to actually you know run a company in terms of figuring out how to like you know get networked in the right spaces in crypto I I I think that there's like some degree of YC

inspo um but I also think that like you know very different when you're looking at that with three to five companies versus 120 or 200 whatever the batches are nowadays try like 400 [ __ ] me uh we're we're cooking on something Smokey y oh yeah yeah oh yeah yeah we got we got gota look look upwards look upwards um what else do we got um I guess like what's uh yeah what's um I know we got to wrap up here in like a couple minutes but uh Smokey what's next man like what should people be looking out for obviously TG was about two weeks ago what's um yeah what's on the road map yeah man um couple different things one is like bar Pala is around the

corner so we'll try to have some some fun stuff to chat about over there um two is just like what happens when P rolls out right like who are going to be is in third party P if you will so who going to be the first or is that under WPS no I've learned to never give dates that always ends launch date let's hear it no but I I think that it's not too far out we're not gonna Edge people for too long and we'll probably end up leaking a little bit more up barala right now just sort of you know I'd say right now just doing extensive testing internally to make sure everything's working as intended um but I think that we'll start to see different teams and different groups that intend on participating in P sort of lobbying and getting into a little bit more of a

public forum about that and saying like hey like you know we're planning to kick back this many of incentives and this much of fees you guys should totally make this happen so I'm excited to see that one quick thing there how what's like the is there an interface or like how do you see all these different you know Pope just like if curious like go explore or like see what's what's going to be offered 100% so they won't be able to see it quite yet right but right now what they'll be able to do is if they go to um you know hub. bear chain.com they'll be able to go to the vaults page and as they see those different vaults those are basically different pools or applications that are able to to receive bgt they're effec you know P eligible so right now you'll just see those pools

with in the becks but over time as more and more stuff gets passed by governance that's where you'll see where you'll see stuff like actually existing uh and I think that's where it'll get very interesting because then you can also see okay like this these are the different uh assets being being incentivized with um and then you can actually go to different validators and say okay this validator is apy effectively is X or Y um if I'm if I'm a a booster or a delegate towards it so I think that would be very cool to just cuz like I don't know this this hasn't been done before and I think it'll be a lot of fun and I I'm a you know big advocate for Funky [ __ ] happening on chain um and then I think we're just going to see some applications uh start

launching their tokens in the not too distant future um I think that a couple of them already come out the gates and are doing quite decently but I think that some of these you know big Hallmark apps that people are excited about your Dolomite Kodiak ugab boa which has been absolutely cleaning up on the aggregator side um those types should uh should be doing quite well um and then I think we'll probably see like the the launch of some of the hyped projects within the ecosystem that everyone was talking about pre-launch so the steady teddies to sort of like took like the be chain e nft ecosystem and a few others very much by storm uh and have you know become a cult classic um I think Jenny's meme coin henlow and their Associated products weed to come out at some point so I think it'll just be the

the realization or the maturity of a bunch of random [ __ ] that's been in the incubator for the better part of six to 12 months nice amazing I well congratulations dude um very good work exciting to see what uh what the Bears do over the course of the next uh couple years and obviously I know uh got disclaimer obviously framework I know you guys have a little proud but maybe small bag holders or um couple but uh yeah so anyway guys uh definitely rooting for you and uh yeah guys we'll have to do like a six Monon check-in or 12 month check-in or something like that uh or you know yeah let's do it again sometime soon thanks man thanks for having me J appreciate you smokey [Music]