Is This An Inflection Point for Crypto? | Roundup

Transcript

all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve before we jump in quick disclaimer the views expressed by my co-hosts today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated with uh nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode thanks welcome back to another episode of bell curve you got the Roundup you got myself Vance and Michael number one no mic number two today how you guys doing crap what up how we doing amazing wow you guys just say uh a quiet day and crypto ecosystem pretty good day

we are ripping narratives are funny huh everything sounds better when the prices are higher that's right yeah it's good I was like man a lot of product Innovations this week yeah technology improving rapidly technology improving yeah yeah we love Ripple huh we love we love Ripple yeah I kind of forgot about this case I mean I think this is a good example of uh these cases take years to play out it's been going on for years huh I don't know how much Rickles spent it's got to be at least in the tens of millions I wouldn't be surprised if it was hundreds of millions that they spent on this case um yeah oh my God it's coming up on it's two and a half years already and you

know they've had every single lawyer that they could possibly find working on this and they've I think they actually also hired a bunch of people specifically for this case yeah or internal counsel um I'm I wouldn't be surprised at this in the nine figures yeah so for anyone living under a rock who missed us basically for the last two and a half three years the SEC has had a lawsuit against Ripple claiming that uh they issued unregistered Securities which was xrp their token and today a judge uh I think it was a federal judge basically came down and said they issued their statement against this and said that uh there's kind of two buckets here they decided that the institutional sales and like fundraising side of what Ripple's done with with xrp some of that

was Securities however the big news is that um the programmatic sale of xrp on exchanges was not a security um that was my takeaway in like in another there's a lot more details but is that you guys read that the same way I think that's roughly the uh my conclusions as well and just to give everyone context this started what with Jay Clayton leaving this was like the last thing that he filed so this is this is something that's been going on to Michael's point for a long time yeah the only other variable I'd say is um they also defined that that granted summary judgment to the defendants I think that's exactly how it goes for the executives who are selling as well so Chris Larson Brad darling

house seemed to be uh five with their transactions as well yeah yeah so to get in detail a little more so SEC Bruce Ripple in brief Ripple putting xrp on exchanges for trading and funding their operation with those sales is not an investment contract therefore it's not a security Ripple paying people in xrp is not an investment contract therefore not a security xrp is not a security in and of itself even when offered through a Securities transaction so that was the good news though like kind of other side of this that wasn't making the big headlines was Ripple selling xrp directly pursuant to contracts was an investment contract and therefore a security um and that's like I think OTC deals direct from treasury type deals

um yeah those kind of like these basically institutional sales deals so yeah what do you guys make of this positive I mean overall this this this is uh there are a number of different ways that this decision could have happened it could have been all in favor of Ripple it could have been all in favor of the SEC it seems like they've decided to split some of the decisions and frankly I think a lot of this does make sense just in some of the initial you know Twitter uh um perspectives this isn't necessarily a one and done and sealed it's all over perspective I you know we would expect that there will be some appeal this doesn't actually clarify a lot of the different you know elements of what potential new regulation would clarify so I think this is definitely a huge

victory for the crypto industry in general uh but I think there's still a lot of work to be done so I I would say the the other thing just as like a point of delineation uh you know when you're raising capital and you're selling assets whether those are you know Securities Commodities property whatever to do so that contract is is considered to be a serious transaction and you know when U.S investors invest in companies those companies have to file for what's called form DS with the sac saying that they raised you know private Capital to sell equity in their business or sell whatever in their business so I think that's probably the The Logical thread that the judge is taking here when you're doing direct sales whether it be OTC or institutional or or Capital formation you know that's where you need

to actually go through a Securities contract and that contract itself is an investment contract whereas if you're selling these on an exchange what they call the programmatic selling where the seller doesn't know who the buyer is and the buyer doesn't know necessarily that they're that they're buying from Ripple Labs itself and the market determines the price through the order book based transaction that's where you know it seems that they've taken the stance that those are not Securities transactions um so just a little bit more color on the difference yeah that's what do you think you had a nice little bullish tweet earlier this week a little bullish tweet I mean yeah like we were talking about it's just crazy how one these things it can kind of come out

of nowhere and just totally change the narrative and yeah to some extent the trajectory of the space as well I I still like my take on all this is um you know there still might be appeals like there still might be all the stuff that's going to happen but um like we used to get laws for this stuff like this even this decision doesn't really make a ton of sense like you know selling it it's a Monumental development but it doesn't it doesn't reach out at law yeah it doesn't right it's it's a great you know like we definitely won everyone has that sense all the crypto lawyers are having a field day just nerd sniping each other on Twitter but I I think uh yeah we just need laws for this stuff like this doesn't feel like a consistent framework that we can apply

across an industry that's going to change a lot and grow yeah what do you think yeah go ahead on that point great timing I mean we have the the stable fund Bill the market structure draft uh you know there's a lot of stuff that's been moving and uh at least you know as of a couple weeks ago there were supposed to be some initial votes internally and discussions internally within the house uh and then also the Lewis dealer brand um redraft just came out a couple days ago so you know this stuff is also happening in parallel to the discussions and negotiations and drafting of laws so I think if anything that's probably the biggest takeaway is that this is just just perfect timing for us to to go into discussions um with the lawmakers themselves yeah all right let's talk uh let's talk about

like why this actually matters so do you I've seen a lot of like tweets today that this means that all tokens are not Securities I think that probably is too far and I think that's probably too bullish of a tweet but that one entirely okay okay I mean it does feel like though um there's kind of two types of tokens that are kind of coming into view here there's like app tokens and there's infrastructure tokens at least this is how I'm kind of seeing the world uh infrastructure tokens are it's becoming more and more clear that they are Commodities where the commodity here is basically what what uh what an L1 is doing is selling block space and we have no idea how to Value this block space it's a totally new business model

but the token here is basically represents the the commodity that is the block space and I think a lot of these like L1 maybe L2 tokens will be seen by regulators and policy makers in years to come as a clear commodity I think the jury's still out on on some of these app tokens yeah I mean that's why you see everyone launch l2s right or like things that look like infrastructure they kind of create these weird perverse incentives to ship things where the market is kind of like already naturally saturated um and so like if you have like a D5 token if you have you know some different type of app token to your point like it's still pretty unclear where things lie yeah I I would say though that even from this decision there's nothing that changes uh or that

reinforces that perspective you know I mean this is very specific to xrp itself it's just the facts and circumstances of the xrp and the transactions that the Ripple Labs team had like once again like I I it's great that this happened and this is definitely a feather in the cap of the crypto industry to move forward with more momentum but I don't think it has anything to do with any other token yeah that's her it does I think help the coinbase lawsuit right because if if listing xrp on exchanges doesn't make it a security the sec's case against coinbase is kind of toast here I feel like xrp was probably the easiest coin that the SEC could have used in the coinbase case but maybe on Trials we have no idea we're not we're not lawyers obviously I mean

like reading through the Ripple case it was about as egregious as you probably could have gotten yeah um and yeah like I think my internal expectation was that I like I it was like probably 50 50. yeah definitely was not uh foregone conclusion at least for me Vance you had this uh you had this tweet earlier in the week so maybe I'll just let's just zoom out a little bit from from this report Ripple news um yeah the screen just kind of like zooming out talking about just bigger narratives like where you're seeing the industry can you just tell us like about that tweet and like kind of what sparked that yeah I mean just like uh I think it was off for like 10 days or something and you know it was working during it but just was looking at um the things that were happening on

chain real world assets you know D5 starting to really kind of pick up and be impressive you know stuff that we're seeing on the private side you know prior analogies to past Cycles like the the timing of where the happening is is you know a really big factor in each one of these things um and you know in in 2021 being three years away versus being you know less than a year away today that's a lot different um and so I think you know there's definitely a narrative that crypto is is failing and that the out or that the Outlook is not as optimistic but I just I don't really you know I I've tried to kind of like try that perspective on for size it doesn't really make as much sense if you really consider all the evidence and facts and

things that are being brought on chain like we've talked about this a lot but if you have 600 million dollars of real world assets that's growing 30 per month and there's like 15 different companies that are trying to bring the stuff on Jane like somebody's gonna do this and it's gonna work right um so yeah I mean I I see that you know historically like tokenization has been a big thesis as well and the hard part about tokenization historically is that really nothing has been worth bringing on chain and that was a function of rates being low so like you know we were bringing on like crappy Aspen condos with no no one to buy the other side like like nothing that would really make a difference but now since rates are high like we have this window of the most attractive

most accessible lowest risk Financial instrument being brought on chain and you know Asia was a big place for uh you know uh stable coins like I wonder if we could see something similar happening you know at some point you know someone will figure out this regulatory structure um and I think that would be really positive so I think there's a lot to be optimistic for and the people who I talk to are generally you know sidelined um in one way or the other and I think that's kind of part of the other side of the story what is the folks our sideline going to this bull market I mean like even even in nutritional markets like the people that we talk to

especially kind of like East Coast folks like this was supposed to be the year of the Stanley druckenmiller recession you know everyone was like all build up on or I get beared up on that idea and it just hasn't come to pass yet not not saying that it won't eventually since then sax was wrong I mean everyone that's really on that train and everyone you know in the NASDAQ just had yeah 40 up first half the best I think ever yeah um so like you know that's painful if you it like there's really nothing uh like just watching something just ripped in your face that you want a piece of but also hate it's uh it's like a religious experience and so I think a lot of people are going through that

right now yeah did you guys see the uh the Patek Philippe nft loan talking about bringing things on change you guys see this this week I mean not until you mention that but like this is there's still you send me the telegram but this is super cool like yeah I'll describe it if people didn't see it so basically this week A lender gave a stranger this 35 000 loan at a 12 APR um and they used uh a Patek Philippe as collateral here and the kicker was that this was done completely on chain basically or with an nft that got kind of moved into defy land so the details of this is that all right so you have a bar or a borrower sent the watch to an escrow company Escrow Company then sends the watch back or sends them back in nft

which represents ownership of the watch the borrower then listed the nft on Arcade uh accepted the best loan offer and then the nft was then transferred to an escrow wallet until the term is up or the borrower repays in full and the only way to get the watch back is by burning the nft so if the borrower defaults the lender can claim the watch um really cool right it's obviously early days and like the lender it's cool we prefer two reasons one is the lender doesn't even have to know the borrower's name they don't have no credit history any of that kind of stuff they just have to know that they are the right owner of the watch which is kind of what the Escrow Company and and the nft does here um and obviously kind of for the naysayers who might say yeah you can do

this in traditional Capital markets for anyone who's got tried to get a loan on a weird like a kind of an asset like a watch or a piece of art like yeah you can you can take a watch to a local pawn shop but yeah you're going to a pawn shop yeah you go to a pawn shop to do it um where you're getting hosed on the rates um but I mean 12 is still pretty high but anytime if you look at any Market in the world like any time you tap into Global liquidity versus local liquidity eventually you end up converging on the best rate possible and so the rates are going to be high in the early days um but uh eventually you end up bringing these kind of like long tail of assets on chain I actually think seeing this the long chain of assets coming on chain

is probably what drives this Market instead of bringing something like t-bills Unchained lend I mean t-bills are the biggest category so those are just gonna be the biggest but nfts are going to be like if you can actually create like a digital pawn shop that's super interesting because you know at a job you can sell something but you can also just post it and borrow against it I guess here's why I think that the long tail will bring these folks on chain and then it comes from treasuries is if you look at how all these web 2 platforms develop like YouTube and Airbnb and Uber and Spotify they basically gain traction they don't start by bringing the existing supply of whatever they're selling on the marketplace on on on chain or onto the platform first they get traction by enabling this kind of

long tail of Supply that wasn't ever possible and accessible with prior platforms so like here let me give an example so Spotify first starts with all these like Indie musicians that no one can listen to once they gain traction then they bring the big labels on onto Spotify Airbnb there was no way to access that kind of long tail of like people posting their houses once that happens now the like hotels are posting hotel rooms on Airbnb um Uber like uber same thing uh Etsy right Etsy started with this like long tail of like weird merch like just little like merchants and craft people now big brands are posting on on their stuff on Etsy as well so I I think um like YouTube as well like vloggers home video content only after that was

successful did YouTube get these like sports games are streamed on YouTube and traditional TV shows now you can watch on YouTube and so I think like when you try to tie this back into defy it seems like Rob leschner came on the Empire podcast love what he's doing with super State I do see that treasury's coming on chain is a big thing but like the typically platforms get traction and drive adoption when they allow people to access Supply that is not possible to access anywhere else gets traction then the Big Supply comes on board I could see that but I could potentially see that happening I actually I I would say the likelihood is probably the reverse for playing out in that the access point that you don't have access to currently

is is frankly treasuries for stable coin-based treasuries as in like the pools of capital that all these protocols have raised um and I think that that's going to be the Catalyst to drive adoption to tokenize other things and that's the enablement uh that's the new technology because right now like uh you have to send them tax relate to a custodian who meets the nft you're not able to wear that Patek Philippe or you're not able to look at that piece of artwork while you are also borrowing against it like that that ability to have utility as well as the financial services applied to that asset I think is where you take this next and that's when it becomes really interesting frankly you have to have a digital asset to be able to do that so for instance you have to be able to have like a contracts you know

security whatever it is that is represented on chain that's in a digital ecosystem versus a physical item I I haven't come up with a good enough solution to cross that analog digital divide um but we talk about this a lot you know whether it's real world assets Brock Lesnar calls them traditional assets I think the the short period of time you know in the next couple of years while we see interest rates at you know four or five percent that's going to drive adoption and tokenization of assets in general and that will drive the enablement of more financial assets that give you the higher yield that make them more interesting they're more bespoke um and and so I I mean what we talk about is we think treasury yields will be the the driving force here and yet you know the treasuries was cash sitting

idle to invest in it but then it'll be the tokenization of the long tail that drives consumer adoption but you have to have yeah more enabling Technologies to have that long to how are you guys investing right now does this like bullishness change the investment thesis at all or just business as usual business as usual honestly I feel like we we've just thought through like what are the credible thesis areas for crypto to manifest and I think there's you know probably like three or four right now um and a lot of this is just already assumed that stuff like this would happen or like not maybe stuff like you know the the Ripple case but um more so just courts pushing back or

legislation or regular regulatory Clarity in some way so yeah like we're always investing for these outcomes does it really change anything um other than the price it's nice to see it's nice to see yeah I went back and looked at this recently but apparent uh I don't know if you've seen this advance but our pacing has been consistent every single month this year in terms of new deals that we've done um so I think that's probably the biggest sign that things haven't really changed or slowed or or you know sped up um the one the one major difference Advanced this point is the price and the valuation which is which is interesting at least for like the base layers because like

the technology is improving meme is actually true um because like if you have eth which goes up it's the main asset of collateral and defy which then gets more credit taken out on it which boosts nft prices which boosts confidence like it is this kind of self-reinforcing system um and so yeah like it it does change some things in in for for some people like you know you're probably gonna see people throw out even higher targets now like that will be the some good 100K eat prices and you know as well as anybody like when people get riled up you know it's it's like this uh you know the dog chasing its own tail it's crazy how quickly you can see the impact of like

narratives changing on on on actual things that like Drive revenue for companies inside of crypto so like for for us like one of the ways we make money is permissionless and we're having a biggest one of the biggest ticket sale days that we've ever had from permissionless and I think that in the last seven days it was the biggest permissionless sales ticket week that we've had since we launched permissionless so it's like it has very quick which then gives us more money which then we can find more people which then brings more people into the industry and it's uh it is this nice cycle I've I've I found people's maximum you know narrative cognition level is about a month like a month ago people probably can't remember what exactly the narrative was

yeah I actually have been doing this thing since covid we're at the end of every day I just write I it actually started doing Kobe to just get thoughts out of my head when like my mind was just racing just like end of every day just like brain dumb thoughts onto a piece of paper uh into just like a notion Doc and then just let it sit and then I'm like okay now I'm done with the day I can like go to sleep or whatever and it's really interesting looking back at these things so I've been doing it every day for three and a half three years now damn yeah and it's like usually one sentence like do they suck this this happened they're like today was great like you recorded a good bot at like hired this new person and yeah like today I don't know they're

like Ripple case bullish fun fun day or something um yeah but it's really interesting yeah even like a month ago I was like damn like things are grind like it just kind of like bearish sentiment you know I mean people can't remember how Max bearish it was near the bottom they can't remember what the sentiment was a month ago they don't remember the last cycle what happened like there is there is this thing uh I forget it's it's in it's one of Edward Chancellor's books the guy who write who wrote Double Take the hindmost but he's like you know history is like usually like a guiding post for every single uh you know discipline except for finance like Finance is like like you have like a year of memory total which is which is interesting well at this point I'm

switching up yeah strength of a year yeah do you know what happened is after a year ago Celsius to put up bankruptcy wow I was gonna say this is around the uh Terror blowing up too probably a month after no I didn't say 2022 that was May of 20 May 8th or 9th of 2022. uh and then you had like June 13th ish as when everybody was just like Market selling all the different assets and that month up until July 13th and today is July 13th um that was the extent of the like Max bearish Max Payne everything's gonna get sold off we're gonna get liquidated tracking everything on chain and then you know when Celsius declared bankruptcy that's kind of when

everything was over to a large extent you know obviously you have the the FTF stuff which happened later in the fall but there was like a month period and you know this is sort of like the marking of the end of that crazy period um so I was I was thinking about that before we started recording today yeah if you look at it like most of crypto um well I guess Bitcoin did make a fresh bottom but east bottomed in uh in June I believe or maybe it was July it was it was around it was June 13th right not 900 900 888 yeah of course it was like a meme number um because we just roll like that but uh then you look at all the other

technology stocks and and they bottomed in the fall um and it is this kind of like you know first in first out or like you know yeah exactly crypto definitely leads a lot of these moves and it's been lagging recently but compared to stocks but it uh it'll be interesting to see for the rest of the year Tom Lee um I don't know the buttons the butt Strat guy yeah fun strike oh yeah Michael and I have subscribed to him for probably like probably at least like four or five years at this point and uh you know a lot of his calls really optimistic really bullish but like mostly contrarian and he like whenever he goes

on CNBC they just take him to the Woodshed they just you know especially when he's like wrong just rip him apart but he's generally always bullish he's just an eternal optimist he is and he seems like a really nice guy too but I met him back in 2018 at Pop's office and yeah good just a good guy like he doesn't really kind of play around the crypto hoop until like the bottom of the bear market and then he's like the only guy who's like still bullish but he he really did call this this Market over the past year just to the extent that no one else has being offered pays off only yeah um coinbase is up like 150 I think on the year it is uh 80 this month or 50 percent this I got I

haven't looked at this stock in the last day or two but I think it's been ripping anyways coinbase and that's two big things this week one was uh base is open open for Biz so I think Base main net just opened to users today or yesterday and then uh they also announced uh wallet to wallet messaging this week which is whether or not it's a big use case is I I have no idea but I just think it's cool to see people pushing the Innovation on the wallet side so if people miss this basically uh coinbase wallet launched built-in messaging which is powered by the xmtp protocol it is end-to-end encrypted private portable um you can see them kind of trying to compete with someone like a signal maybe on uh and how they message this thing but it allows you to connect directly

through your wallet engage with both b2c and kind of B to all right like see just like consumer to Consumer I can message you Vance and Michael and then we can also we were pretty excited about this at block works because we can message our community essentially on chain so for example like at this here's like real use cases we we sold these permits right and permis get you access have a bunch of utility they get you at like if you're a permeable do you get access to blockworks research for free you get a lifetime pass to permissionless there's like a private Channel like all this cool stuff and permit Community super strong it's there's no way for us to message them like when you let the U.N bought a permit today there's no way for me to go message you Michael and tell

you what we need to tell you like hey by the way you get a free past permission list it's in September um we have to basically rely on you following us on Twitter and then using the tweet and then jumping in the Discord right so now for the first time ever we can message all Army holders and be like hey by the way if you haven't got your permissions ticket and then they can respond to us very very cool so it's a good way for these on-chain protocols and companies to engage with their communities I mean at the same time you have uh Google Play announcing a reversal of their previous opinion of not allowing nfts in app uh to be bought sold used as um you know basically for the adjusting purpose that you're talking about so Google Play Store Android phones will

allow apps with nfts going forward uh I mean I think that there's going to be a large large-scale recognition that nfts are going to eventually become not just a an asset uh with financial value and interest in that respect but it's also to be something that has consumer appeal for you know use cases outside of the financial ones yeah look at the Google product manager he his quote was from reimagining traditional games with user-owned content to boosting user loyalty through unique nft rewards we're excited to see creative in-app experiences flourish and help developers expand their business it's huge I mean like even messaging in the interplay between games is super interesting like if you can really get the social network

going on chain and then you get an ad Network like you can you can build it up pretty quickly into a very real probably not quite as like degenerate ecosystem yeah I think they launched an ad Network I have a feeling coinbase will launch an app Network and so there's a few people trying to build ad networks it's um that's another Antonio yeah there's there's a lot of uh interesting efforts in on that space yeah what else you guys looking at what else happened this week oh um Richie the uh Richie Flores Juarez yeah shout out Richie Torres so this uh Richard Torres is um Congressman for NY 15 in the Bronx uh he he tweeted out about an hour or two ago he said uh garrigan starts acting like an overzealous traffic cop

arbitrarily ticketing drivers while keeping the speed limit a secret great analogy actually uh it prefers to community uh he prefers to communicate by enforcement rather than by rules or guidance but that's no way to regulate crypto I'm calling for an investigation which is Big because this is uh if you look at the people who have called out Gensler in the past it's primarily Republicans right um and this is kind of the Dems starting to turn on genser as well so it's I mean it's kind of hard to imagine that FTX was what like nine months ago yeah I I would have thought this Arc would have taken a lot longer like because we've gone through

it happening you know everybody being in trouble enforcement actions lawsuits cases and now it's kind of like the pushback is is a little bit there on the SEC and and people are more seeing it our way it's just a it's just quick honestly in my opinion I thought it would have taken longer yeah I I have no idea what an investigation into the SEC actually means what the process is but just the The Narrative um I think is really positive yeah a lot of these things are like also political statements exactly like when Warren Davidson said he was going to fire you know Gary Gensler you know it's just not gonna happen yeah great what else is going on how are things on

that framework things are good um just kind of getting back from from break for the most part Michael's on on his uh his week off we tend to switch off just in case you know anything goes wrong you each take every other week off right yeah yeah yeah consistently Summers yeah um what else honestly just uh investing but the bar is high I think that's kind of the theme with everyone that we talk to um and there's a few different verticals that you can pick like it's not it's not like one thing anymore which is nice it feels like more disperse than when

everyone was just trying to do D5 with any with any Venture investment um you know this kind of goes back to what we were talking about with the delineation between uh that the judge made in the in the Ripple case you know it depends on your jurisdiction and it depends on you know the legal perspectives of that jurisdiction but just about in any Venture deal you're selling equity and tokens and so it doesn't really you know matter which side you you are on when it comes to the investment itself but um yeah I mean if you're doing a private deal it's going to have both features included just because over the long Arc of things you know I think a lot of companies that don't expect to have a token will probably have a token and many of these companies start off as Labs organizations But ultimately wash a

in infrastructure based L2 or something like that where a token is necessary so I think a lot of the convergence will happen over time especially with Venture deals what about Arkham oh God that's awesome what are they doing they're trying to like docks people on Jane did they do the token sale because they failed a fundraise or what what happened here there was a lot going on I don't know what happened with the fundraise honest people love Arkham's product I feel like it was like starting to compete with nanson and then they just they just blew it I mean the Mike and I were talking about this the number of like companies that just self-sabotage themselves I'm like do you what are you doing guys yeah

and the self-sabotage in crypto is remarkable the bear Market tends to bring that out in people I think there's just a yeah I mean some bad operators or or the bull market decisions kind of come home to roost that's the other flavor yeah the bull market decisions come home to roost oh yeah oh yeah we did this thing two years ago it's like oh no I mean I tweeted this a while ago but I think just about every startup that dies is not killed by homicide but actually suicide quietly I feel like a lot of small seed companies like some 10 person companies have just kind of been closing their doors some are returning Capital have we seen the end of that or is that do we is that does that keep going

basically for the rest of this year I would assume it keeps going keeps going yeah yeah I I would I would imagine that this fall it gets even more dire um just because you have a lot of the people that raised for 18 24 months during 2021 they're out of capital by the end of 2023. and they're they're probably have done things to you know sustain or prolong what what ultimately will be the inevitable which is uh a massive you know write down in terms of what the valuation is based on last round you know needing to raise Capital to survive or frankly just to wind down like we've seen a couple of companies who were raising and then they came back to the table and said actually you know we're just not going to raise and you

know shut things down um which is the first time that I've really you know seen that I think it it comes from a recognition of like the market has completely changed the outcomes have potentially completely changed as well and people you know just get burned by the bear market and their their Heart's Not and frankly entrepreneurship is not something where if you're not 110 in you can't do it um so I think a lot of people are realizing that yeah yeah a lot of them were I would say consumer crypto startup having some trouble probably the nft ones that market has changed a lot but yeah you know if people want to continue on they can generally raise money at a Down Round you know fire sale whatever valuation it just gets back to Michael's Point like how bad do you want it is

that worth it to you versus going off and doing something else with you know the next couple years weeks like this meant we think we're gonna have a fun time in the next few years but I don't know I'm a board yeah the pivot to AI is dead so I'm stoked up around yeah I saw a tweet today that was like is Chachi BT the Myspace of AI maybe not but it kind of does get you thinking chat CPT month over month is down like 10 like the the chart on interest like for doodle trends of chat apt is not looking positive do you guys use chat probably one time yeah like if I want to find out like some random kind of like permutation of like a Wikipedia fact you know it's pretty good for that

but like I don't know well I'm like yeah I don't fully get it I use it I use a lot what do you use it for basically like getting off zero with a with a Google doc so like here's an example we just brought on a um like a VP of sales and uh like we create 30 60 90 Day plans for everyone who joins Lock Works especially like execs or leadership team and um I don't know I've never had a VP of sales right and so I just I was like sitting at this Google doc being like all right let's discuss 30 60 90. and uh I just went to gbt and was like all right here's some context we're like a 50 plus person media company and crypto here's our Revenue

here's here's like how big the sales team is we got this VP of sales here's where he's coming from uh create a 30 60 90 day plan I mean like 70 of the it spit out uh spit out like a summary and I was like make this into a two pages worth of stuff gave me super detailed analysis I was like break it down week by week and then I copied that into a Google doc and chopped it around and then added you know added my own flavor obviously in word context for for me for at least what what we do I don't think what you guys do is as useful I mean we've like played around with like you can you can actually like connect not gbt but there's some open source llms now like we've debated basically um connecting like a couple of

the open source llms to our governance platform and uh maybe I shouldn't share this whatever I'll share and like uh it could might leave some product Alpha that's okay though I don't think other teams know how to build it and um basically making it so that you can update the governance proposals in real time as they come in you can summarize them um using like a open source llm give I like that yeah to me that's like not me using AI it's like you using AI for me I'm I'm down for that though that sounds great we're Subs we sub to block first research fans you tried like seven times to subscribe to it I kept getting failed another vacation I'm I'm the nightmare user that reads

all your stuff yeah all right should we wrap it [Music]