S4 - Ep. 21 Honour - Wholesome Money W/ Andy Tudhope

Transcript

welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we're building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and we publish an episode of about 10 episodes every couple months this season is lean mean Capital allocation machines Capital allocation is the way that we decide how we're going to spend Financial Resources with web 3 we can do new more democratic transparent scalable precise weird ways of doing Capital allocation because now we have blockchains and programmable smart contracts we can program our values into our money how can we build cryptoeconomic systems that allocate capital in new weird ways what are the coolest experiments these are the themes

of green pill season 4 lean mean Capital allocation machines and our guest today is Andy thud hook someone who is practicing the weird art of capital allocation Andy has worked on weird things in crypto since 2014 you built the first Fair ranking system on ethereum while working at status he has made some friends at maker he wrote and ran the kernel uh Community syllabus with others and and the idea behind kernel was to give away a new manner of seeing crypto he created prison art to showcase the better uses of technology that we've created extended what nfts could be with sign. kernel. community and the Blue Book uh and he has most recently built honor a way of implementing wholesome money and uh that

is what we're here to talk about today on the green pillow podcast is Andy's philosophy behind honor in what ways could we Implement more wholesome money and uh how can we explore the design space of social Credit Systems and what does that mean to Andy what are his influences what are his values I think that this was a really amazing episode if you've never heard from Andy before I think one of the things you'll notice is that he's got this sort of like thoughtful philosopher aspect to him that I think is like really beautiful to listen to in audio form when I first met Andy in 2017 uh actually it was 2018 at edcon I was just taken away by just the depth of his thinking and um not just his philosophy but the fact that he executes I mean he built honor with his

own two hands and I think that you know the most interesting green pill guests are the people who can think about these things a priority but also can create experiments that create empirical results in how they're used in the world and honor. Community is one half empirical and one half a priority so it's always a pleasure to talk to Andy th hope and I think that you're going to really enjoy this episode hey Andy how you doing I'm well thanks for having me Kev yeah excited to talk about honor so what is honor honor very simply is a ERC 20 token on optimism it looks pretty much the same as your vanilla erc20 except it has two

additional mappings that have to do with how tokens are minted or burned uh and in this particular case it has no set limits and the idea is that honor tokens or h n on can be minted into existence as they are needed and burned out of existence when they are no longer needed this is an idea that mimics older approaches to money and is particularly influenced by David G's fragments of an anarchist anthropology and de the first 5,000 years it tries to replicate complex social Credit Systems on a blockchain and the way in which it does that is it takes

the erc20 standard and says hey we can tell a very different story about what this thing actually is because ultimately it's all just nemics right it's the stories that we share that inform how we use any given technology and Anna says rather than having these erc20 tokens represent assets what happens if the tokens themselves are obligations uh so having lots of tokens having a big balance is not necessarily a good thing it's a measure of your liabilities and those two additional mappings that are not a part of the standard what they allow for is consensual transactions so when you do something for me you can propose that I

take on some honor tokens and if I say yes Kev you know it's wonderful you've given me a spot on your podcast and I probably should you know return the favor in some way I'll accept some un tokens and then they are minted into existence and similarly speaking if I then do something for you I can either propose that you take on on and the same process happens or I can propose to forgive some of your already existing balance and there is a little bit of subtlety around the rules for forgiveness yeah I can't propose to forgive more tokens than I currently have in my balance is like the big rule and that very very simple little tweak

in the mechanism makes for sort of endlessly interesting games that can be played with this if you buy into the notion that tokens need not represent assets and in particular need not represent assets that give us governance rights over others which a lot of erc20 tokens supposedly do just by virtue of the story that we tell about them and I happen to think that assets which are tradable and which hold governance rights over others most likely mix the worst parts of capitalism and tyranny so honor is an experiment about how we can undo that and kind of go in the opposite direction and uh you know try and reimagine these very very rich social

networks of credit that GBA talks about in older communities but using modern technology well when I first learned about honor I thought it was quite provocative that a balance could represent an obligation instead of an asset and um you know that's kind of like a big pattern interrupt for me that if we're programming our values into our money we could program completely different value sets into into our money and you know I'm wondering if you could tell me more about your experience reading about uh Graber i' I've actually never read him so I'm curious about that philosophy and um just what kind of experiment what you're hoping to see out of the experiment Graber is an interesting person for many different

reasons and in this context probably the most important thing to say about him is that as an anthropologist he came up with a datadriven understanding of the development of money that is almost the direct opposite to what Adam Smith proposed in The Wealth of Nations Smith tells the story that we begin with uh you know barter for goods and because of The Coincidence of once problem we have to try and find some neutral measurement of value that we can trade rather than just like having bread one day or being able to do haircuts the other or having caught a fish this day so we try and find some neutral medium currency

emerges from the ability that people find to solve The Coincidence of once and then when currency fails uh then you kind of either return to b or indeed like if it's succeeds you get into credit networks and credit is like the evolution of coinage that's Smith's story in the wealth of nation and griev says it's in fact if you look at anthrop anthropological evidence it's the exact opposite when you look into SoCal primitive tribes that still exists today and he did his research in Madagascar but this is true pretty much across the broad when when you look at so-called primitive societies that haven't been exposed to coinage and don't barter for things what you find are complex networks of social credits

and this goes way back in the anthropological and archaeological records so the book that was published posthumously with an archaeologist David wro it's called the dawn of everything discusses the archaeological evidence for this in Greater detail than debt did which was just looking at the development of debt through anthropological data and it's it's really funny to have that patent interrupt as you as you say because we have this baked in notion that it's you know bter Coincidence of once coinage credit and credit is kind of like what happens when there's not enough coinage in circulation but in fact it's it's really the direct opposite and this is critical to understand because those complex networks of social credit hold such an interesting array of

insights when you start thinking about like what is the point of coordination like what is the what is the grand purpose for which we try to coordinates right like how do you how do you come about a narrative that tells a convincing and persuasive story about why coordinates because in those complex networks of social credits money religion and culture are all just different facets of the same thing and that that thing is how we share what we perceive to be valuable like money religion and culture all just come at that central question how do we share or how do we communicate about what we perceive to be valuable in from slightly different directions but it's really the same thing and and debt is a book precisely about this right because when

you really investigate debt there's this deep moral ambivalence about it you know like who is in the moral low ground is it the Creditor or the data and and it really depends on the nature of the relationship and and and how one responds to the other it's not it's never predetermined and in a sense you know can there's just so much to dig out in terms of the theological underpinnings of the money that we use and the kinds of culture that it supports because all of these things are deeply tied together and gria makes the point that you know like you can go through this progression of asking like who am I really in debt to you know he asks it on a global level is I don't know what is it now 300 plus trillion dollars of global debt who's it owed to

right and if you know if if we're talking to Regions it's it's to the future is like one very good answer to the face of still under the Earth as the Native Americans call it but you know gas's point in raising that kind of question is that you can say well if you look at the stories that are told in these sort of pre- coinage societies it's like well you're in debt to your parents and so you become a parent and then you're in debt to your teachers and so you become a teacher and then you're in debt to the sages and so you become wise right and then you find that you're kind of in debt to the universe but perhaps like you are the universe and then where does the debt go and and and so this this moral Ence at the heart of

debt links us deeply into the kind of narratives that inform the culture that we participate in and the sorts of religion that we seem to think are valid and it might seem a stretch to link religion money and culture in this way but if you look at the what I would call like the leading thinkers in crypto about this particular topic it's very much present and and those people you know just to mention like a few kind of projects that are somewhat similar to Anna at least in their intention is cycles. money by Ethan buan in Cosmos and uh Christopher Go's sort of scale free money in aoma and Ethan was in fact on bankless a while ago debating David and Ryan about you know Empires versus city states and

in that podcast he makes a wonderful point about you know like our money all all of it has religious roots and we need to get serious about that not in the sense of trying to be Evangelical or saying that there is like one true money or One True Religion we just have to be aware that the kinds of money we perceive to be most valuable imply very deep narratives about the cultures that we participate and what we really like at root believe in and the point that he's making in that particular episode which is something that I already resonate with and why honor is only minted into existence when it's needed and then forgiven out of existence as it's no longer leaded in the same way that these networks of social credit used to work

is that money is primarily a tool to clear debts right and it's only once the debt clearing capacity of your money starts to fail that its function as a store of value uh becomes preeminent and if you take the store of value function is preent the thing itself it implies a particular narrative which is quite static and authoritarian and hierarchical whereas money as a clearing instrument implies something much more relational processional it doesn't imply that there's one true God or one true standard of money or you know in God we trust it implies a relatedness to others a horizontality a plurality that is much

more appealing I think uh and you know it's in being aware of the deep implications of the kinds of money that we choose to use and transact with that we can come to a deeper understanding of ourselves and the kinds of relationships that we enter into that we find ourselves participating in because I think that this is something that can be quite a cause of cognitive dissonance for a lot of like especially regen people in in web 3 right you like hear about crypto and you're like oh there's all this cool stuff that I can do and there's Dows and there's the coordination and oh my gosh we're going to change the future of money and it just all sounds like so wonderful and then you actually like start doing it and it's like mostly people like running like quite complex scams or just uh you know doing all

sorts of things that are very clearly not regenerative and that kind of cognitive dissonance is difficult to pass and understand but if you begin to think quite deeply about well what does this form of money what is like what what are the values that are programmed into it and what does that imply about the underlying narrative then you know you can begin to see a little bit more clearly perhaps your own path through the Dark Forest to the little Glades of light where interesting things are happening and and I hope that honor is one of those right I I I don't necessarily you know Ethan and cycles.

money the project that they're working on in Cosmos is much more I want almost to say realistic than I you know like like Cycles is a protocol that plugs right into QuickBooks which is a commonly used accounting software around the world and then uses liquidity on the into block communication IBC to build a graph of obligations and to settle debts wherever it can find them there is a great degree of Elegance in it but also some very open questions about kind of well who gets to settle the debts first whose debts get settled first and for what reason rather a difficult one to answer but you know honor is a grand experiment it's statements left in

perpetuity right because the these things last a long time and I don't necessarily think that I need to get the next million users on boarded on or billion what do we what do we say next billion users onto blockchains right that's not honor purpose it's to stand there as a message in a new kind of technological medium that this is what is possible right it's it's not it's one way of thinking about money there's so many others and if we don't open our minds a little bit then we will end up just replicating the same old stuff that exists in slightly more distributed and perhaps less efficient ways right is that's not what that's not what

blockchains are for it's not to redo the traditional Finance system but maybe like include a few more like Geeks this time around you know it's something else is at stake here and my contention is that what is at stake is a culture that thinks about money differently and tells a different story about what is worth believing in yeah one thing that has been a theme this green pill podcast as we've explored lots of different ways that onchain Capital allocation will be different from the way we've done it is this idea of returning to Our Roots and so we had Scott Morris on to talk about Community currencies and then will Ruck to talk about commitment pooling and these ideas of social Credit Systems

that have in many ways been sort of Blown Away through Industrial Age money and Colonial money and in what ways could we return to our roots of social credit and mutual debt clearing and just being in relation with each other you know th those old ways of of sort of managing obligations and how can we bring those onchain and and refresh those now that we have this more expressive medium for uh for doing money and um you know I guess I'm just noting that that's a that's a theme uh and I hope the listeners listening to the last couple episodes will will will see that theme and I'm wondering if you if you have any sort of comments or or if you want to Riff on this idea of returning to Our Roots at all what's the meaning

of the word radical right uh have this notion that that radical means some kind of break or uh or you know like something completely different radical the radical is the roots of a plant in Latin it literally means Roots so like to to be radical is to go back to the roots and like you know I've spent a lot of time looking at different monetary systems I've worked in a number of them I I think that there are interesting aspects to locally exchange traded systems I think I've seen systems that use a functional programming approach to money where you can have name spaces for different coins and you can have infinitely nested name spaces for different coins between different people at any given time I thought a lot about circles. uvi you know the sort of trust graph you know a lot of these things uh

circles included and Community currencies Community currencies you know like some of existed in South Africa where I grew up and you know I know a fair bit about them through experience and and you know they're all still assets they're all still assets and Community currencies in particular have a half lifee that is largely defined by the usefulness of other people in the network and when the hairdresser leaves uh all of a sudden your community currency can no longer get you a a hair cut right and so it kind of begins to lose value and and that becomes and I'm sure that will would have said this because it's certainly what they found in Kenya with Grassroots economics right like it's enormously difficult to compete with a local Community currency in a global market and you know if you

look at Ubi it's the same thing it's like how do we get assets to people and I think that that's like none of that is radical enough right none of that is radical enough and none of it is simple enough either right that's why like an is an is a single contract there's there's no complicated protocol there's no offchain intents there's no solver Network there's nothing in it that could be susceptible to meev there is no part of it which looks in any way similar to the way that Finance is currently handled now this brings with it a number of other problems right because it puts the

pricing efforts you know how do you value on totally on the user there's nothing in the protocol which says on is worth1 or $10 or one nothing you can you can make it worth whatever you want and that's enormously weird and quite difficult for people to grasp there's a psychological barrier that is inevitably brought up when you do something truly radical which is not presentent in Ubi or Community currencies because at least they they they look somewhat legible because these are assets these are things that I want and and money is a good thing right like the more money that I have the better my life is that's a narrative that is pushed by the culture we are deeply conditioned in that are subtle and difficult to

understand for all of us around that and what an is saying is like forget all of that stuff right and and even forget what Ethan is doing with Deb clearing and I love Ethan I worked with him and I think that Cycles is an incredibly cool thing right but like as I say when you when you integrate into QuickBooks and you think about like the debt clearing and and and and it's this whole graph of obligations like who's Deb get settled first and for what reasons these are difficult questions to answer in fact there's no single right answer to it and in makes the protocol a little bit messy whereas what Anna is saying is like there's no there's no definition of what the price is in terms of anything else here and your balance is a measure of your obligations but how high that has

to be in order for me to not trust you and think that you're not credit Worthy is left totally up to you and your transaction history is a measure of your trustworthiness right and in the front end for on which you can find at on a. Community I have a very very simple algorithm it's 100 lines long right that defines the trust score for somebody but the the that algorithm is written in JavaScript on the front end right it's not a part of the protocol itself and the one that I happened to make was the simplest thing that I could think of which is that if you have transacted with an address that I have transacted with then you get plus one and if you and I have transacted directly you get plus two points and if you have transacted uh with an address in an

amount that's two orders of magnitude larger than anything that I have transacted with you get minus one and like then the trust score can go up or down infinitely it's not like out of 10 or some percentage because that's also the wrong way to think about these things but the point is that like you don't have to use that particular method of measuring trust and you don't have to listen to me about like what like what kind of balance would suggest that you're not totally credit worthy because all of these things can be usefully explored in Social experiments in different and interconnected networks that think about credit in slightly different contexts because they come from different contexts right and this is this is like the one thing that I think is genuinely

interesting about on as opposed to like what I've mentioned with like scale free money and and Cycles is that there is a single Global symbol right because this is this is the problem with circles and some of the Ubi and certainly Community currencies right is that like if you have to track more than two or three currencies the psychological burden for normal people is too much they lose interest very very quickly and there's like good research on this whereas like on is a single Global Civil Right like there's only one token HRM that's it so you only have to think about that but how people use it defines any number of interrelated subcommunities in which the price is completely different and and I think that that's

very weird I don't know exactly what the outcome of that kind of thing will be but what it enables is like like a single legible psychological space we're using on to transact but infinite nuance in terms of the communities that use it and how they Define what price they charge for different things and this is something that is interesting to think about in terms of capital allocation because you know traditionally speaking we say that the market is the best means of resource allocation that we know and I think that that's you know on a global scale probably true in the last 500 years but it's not necess it feels more like a local maximiz in me than a global one right because the market is never perfect and it doesn't take into account

local context and then trying to like take into account local context has always given us really really big issues because it means some kind of like Community currency or Ubi scheme or something but they're always local and they always place a greater psychological burden on people because now I have to track multiple different kinds of currency and they suffer from this halflife like Decay problem because as people leave the network for a more competitive Global Network your community currency loses value or yeah you lose the ability to do different stuff with it uh and so that's to me what's interesting about like like a global Ledges you can have a single name space right like a single thing to think about but it can be infinitely nuanced in the ways that it is used only if you keep the protocol as thin as possible as

simple as possible and you know that's that's that's what I did whether it's useful in the short term I'm not sure you know because like it is it's a lot to ask people right and and in fact I've had interactions with folks around it where people have got like quite angry because they're like no like money is like money is a good thing okay why you know like I'm I'm here because like long discussion with somebody from India who who came from really quite abject poverty and he's like I've worked so hard to to earn money to get myself to where I am like and now you're telling me that like no I'm just going to like make a money that like is an obligation I'm I'm not interested that's it very interesting reaction you know and that's kind of what I mean is that you you have two paths basically

you can either kind of like do the thing that is legible and like make some kind of asset but try and bake in some like clever logic behind the scenes that makes that asset function in a much more efficient manner and that's kind of what Cycles is doing and it's wonderful and Ethan has even said like the best kind of money is that with infinite velocity right that the actual currency never appears right just infinite velocity and it just clears all of the debts constantly and that's kind of what they're trying to build with Cycles so the actual currency never manifests and I love that but as I say I think there are open questions around the order in which things happen whose de gets cleared first but honor it's something different right and the the barrier to it is psychological and that's why I mentioned

the point about the religious narratives right because interestingly you know the first the first word that Jesus says on the mount at saai when he gives the the sermon that is mentioned in Matthew if you have ever read a Bible in in the original Greek version it is metanoia it says metano he actually talked in Aramaic but the original Greek version is the first written version of the Bible and met directly translated it means change your mind right change your mind it's very similar actually to like the DAP for instance say like all is mind everything is about how you perceive what is value because how you perceive what is valuable relates very deeply to then your choices about how you communicate it and with whom you share it and of course in the years

since that original Greek bible the Greek was translated into Latin and it was translated by a man called St Jerome and St Jerome translated metanoia in Greek to penitenti in Latin from which we get repent right and so we have in the English version of the Bible these days Jesus climbing the mountain saying repent a very different thing to change your mind and I think that that's that's that's kind of like the anyway that's kind of the burden that honor places on people says change your mind and it's it's a really big thing to ask of people right uh I don't that's why I say like what success looks like for me is not everybody using honor you you know I I think that's uh the pricing efforts and

the idea that money is a liability a bad you know quote unquote bad thing as opposed to something to strive for is is really difficult to wrap your head around but what success looks like is more people recognizing that you can program your values into money and and having a more playful attitude toward money right rather than idolizing it and thinking in simplistic ways about it having a playful attitude money is something we can play rather than idolize I think that that would be that would be really wonderful and I think we would probably be in a better world with richer culture and better narratives to believe in rather than the seemingly monocultural and rather gray

world that sometimes seems to be just over the horizon you know yeah I mean uh hearing you talk again definitely it's moving to hear where your vision comes from and and how you're actually putting in to practice and I'm wondering how the first experiments with with honor are going you know what are you actually seeing tangibly it being used for and what do you hope to see in upcoming experiments yes a great question the first thing that I did was make the there there's a particular lesson in the kernel syllabus in module two called money and speech and it is now token gated by Honor because the major point about this is that when you have a token

that is not an asset used to govern others but rather a liability and you use it to token gate content or a chat room the incentive when people get into that content or into that chat room is not to try and manipulate others and make price go up it's to find other people to serve so that they can forgive you your obligations so it seems to me to be a much more pro-social tool for exactly the thing that we want to do right like you you there is this inherent need in building communities to to find a balance between like quality ethos aligned people and growth right you don't just want to kind of open the community up to everybody but you do want to find some mechanism by which you can filter people coming in so that

there is like constant stream of like new ideas and new energy so that things don't stagnate and one of the solutions that people have come up with is token gating and bu out token uh you know participa governance and votes on snapshots and then like you know be a part of our community but as I say I think that actually when you think about the underlying narratives mix is the worst of capitalism and tyranny whereas yeah you know if you talk Eng Gates stuff with honor then people can get it relatively easily but they think about they think about it before they get it because they're like now I owe someone something you know I don't quite know exactly who I owe are perhaps in the case of like the token gated page on kernel because it's just a little API that proposals that you take on some on

but you know you still have an obligation and you need you need take on an obligation to read that content which is all about like the link between money and speech and and that goes all the way back to you know ancient Suma and further the first writing that we have is about that it's bills of lading from warehouses in what is now Iran um interestingly on that not just as a random side notes you know these bills of lading had uh seals clay were they clay envelopes and they were sealed with a particular stamp and the stamp often would have a check sum of like all of the stuff that was recorded in the envelope and then an invocation to God uh that whoever broke the seal without due permission uh would be cursed forever right money and religion have

always been intimately linked and what's fascinating about these seals I just bought for you K is that the seals are both a means of you know securing the contents of the transaction um the first sort of Proto encryption in those check sums and because for instance we know we found these Sumerian seals in like Mali uh we know that there was trade between Suma and Mari and so the seals become not just a measure of ensuring trust in the transaction itself but also of tracing how far the trust Network grows it's very fascinating anyway so interesting aside but honor is implemented in kernel and then like a bunch of different people mostly in Africa where I'm based are interested in using this and you know there's a few

sort of researchers out of the ethereum foundation who been one of whom said one on is worth one e and he's kind of like every time he every time he pays people he sends them on as well and and now he's sort of like uh trying to see how people how people respond to that and you know where it leads in terms of like the quality of their his relationships uh so you know it's kind of stuff it's it's really busy there's lots of like individuals around the place who might have thought about like the history of money and the philosophy value and then who stumble upon onor and they're like oh let me experiment with this but nothing bigger scale than that I'll be curious to I I don't know if you have this information

but the the EF researcher the EF employee who pays people and then sends them on at that point I'm curious to hear if any of those people have realized what it is and have sort of tried to clear their debts or the obligations because um if if they have if that conversion rate is high what you've created is sort of a a fractal system that as more people use it they learn more about social Credit Systems and mutual debt clearing in some of these some of your philosophies and I it's just neat to think about basically being being pilled on something as you receive payment that that's I think a really elegant way to spread the this meme yeah yeah I don't I don't think that there have been many ERS yet is the

honest answer it's on optimism you can look at the contract and you know it would be possible with a little bit of python to make a pretty graph and see you know whose creation of on has led to the most sort of onward going transactions which is probably something that I'll do a little bit further down the line but this is the other thing to say then is that like the time scale of the stuff is also radically different right because you're not trying to make a quick Buck because there's no there's no underlying scheme to exit to community or I don't know like make a profit the whole idea is to reinvent what profit means right like in fact that was the reason that I got into blockchains in the first place a decade ago now was that somebody told me hey man we're not here to get rich we're

here to redefine what wealth is and it's taken me 10 years to figure out what that actually means to me at the level of code right I knew a few years ago that like wealth means having enough to share it's like an old way of talking about it from again just studying some like different communities from around the world um but like what does that look like at the level of code well like on is my best destination but the point about is that like if it's true that blockchains will be around for a long time then you know we have the luxury to think in very different time scales about this stuff and you know if only 100 people use on in the next 10 years what does it matter to me you know

because if you are and I hope that you're right you know I certainly think so but of course I'm deeply biased and you should never trust an author about their own work I hope that it's a fractal scaling system and I do hope that the meme of like receiving a payment be like oh I have on of damn it's like not a good thing to have or kind of maybe it's a good thing to have because also when I have some I can forgive my friends but I don't know is it like good or bad maybe like good and bad aren't so like static and like maybe they're relative and defined by the context that I'm in or like maybe maybe like right and wrong isn't like so clearcuts or I don't know you know like I hope that that's the case uh whether it will be or not is is it's not in my

hands right and this is like another old story that like the I really think that the best we can do with life is how we are when we doing it's not the outcome right like you find it in the vadas it's like one two birds sitting on a branch one eats the fruit and one just watches and like be not attached to the fruit of one's actions nor the actor you know this repeated you know across pretty much all of the Traditions Jesus also talks about this on the m and the sermon that I mentioned earlier you know you like the fruit of one's actions is not the action wasn't even you and the fruit is not relevant to the state that you're in when you're doing it that's what really seems to the quality of one hearts in the work that we do and and

and and I think that that's like the underlying reality of how one encodes values or programs values into money in this particular case but into any work that you do you know when you when you when you find when you look at a painting that really moves you when you listen to a piece of music that brings you to Great Joy or an understanding of pain or you know there's so many things when that happens when when one encounters one really Encounters in an intimate fashion any particular piece of art or work that noat because there is something of the state of that person that is aart right that was imparted to the work in question and the same is true for like code the same is true for these things can be you know deeply meaningful

and uh the way in which that happens is not the outcome that the thing achieves right it's not uh it's it's how you are when you're doing it um and so that's the you know that's kind of be my focus in this and I think that again like that process-based thing is critical because it actually speaks to the underlying like philosophy of this particular kind of money as I said earlier like if your thing is monetary premium if it's all about a store of value like Bitcoin is the new digital gold right then like what that implies is a very static God right and I know that it's like quite a big leap from one thing to the other but like if you go with me here like you you when you think that it's always about the

store value you're always appealing to some external Authority for the stamp of approval that this thing really is valuable and there's one true value and everybody should abide by that right it's just like very static paternalistic notion of of reality of what is what is real right whereas when you're thinking about clearing and when you're thinking about the relationality of things and the network and the graph of obligations that we all bear both to ourselves and one another and to The Wider World in which we participate then you're in the realm of process theology right like you're in the you're in the realm of like what it means to to relate what it means to make real by relationship and I think that that's just a much more like it's a much more

intimate and moving place to be because it's not about dependency and obedience and fear which is the whole static paternalistic story it's about love and it's about intimacy and it's about vulnerability and it's about honesty right because like all of those things are premised on one one's ability to be honest with yourself and with others and when you really are and this is G's great point in dead he said like like be honest there's this moral ambivalence in everything including your own character and when when you're just clear about that with yourself then all of a sudden the space opens up for play right the space opens up for humor and

it doesn't become this serious thing of like trying to prove my God or my money or my way of doing things or the right way or the objective truth or any of this kind of stuff it becomes like how can I keep the game going how can I you know how can I experience love and that is an endless question right there's no single way of answering that there's no end a ways in which that happens so that's much more exciting for me you know beautiful I have more I want to say but we're getting towards the bottom of the hour so I got to lead you to my towards my final questions I have two of them the first is if you are maximally successful in the next 10 years what does the world look like or what do

these experiments look like so take me forward to 2034 honor has been massively successful or your vision has come true paint us a picture of that world this is all video that I like of Robin Williams it's called the world is open for play and gria actually wrote an AR like an article about play and its relationship with evolutionary history why do animals play and as I said success for me doesn't look like everybody using a right it looks like people no longer idolizing money and having a more playful relationship with us now I don't want to Define exactly what that looks like because I genuinely don't know uh but I do think that if we had more playful relationships with money we might have like richer and more

meaningful relationships and like that's like that's protopia for me right when I'm when the thing that I spend most of my time doing is tending to and caring for the of my relationships that seems to be a really wonderful thing and although it might be diffuse and like very difficult to quantify that is like the world in which I want to live right and and hopefully like Anna can help us get there by like Pat interrupting a few people along the way at critical Junctions and saying like hey there is a playful way of interacting with all of this stuff and that playful way opens you to a way of Rel relating with yourself and with

others but yeah that that is playful because money is so serious right we're so serious about money and I understand why right like I I really really do I have a family I you know I have to support people I have people that rely on me I I really understand like why money is a serious thing but if we weren't so serious just a little bit less serious about it that would be successful right I would love that because I think that it would it would serve our relationships greatly uh and um and I think that that is the way that you really find richness in the world that is that that's wealth means having enough to share and that implies that you have to have people that you think are worth sharing with right like and

and if I had a little bit more time to tend to and care for my relationships and a little bit less time spent on trying to just make a ton of money that would be great and I think that yeah I think that honor can can like carry that mean it can like spread that kind of like psychological attitude at least you know within certain like critical points in the crypto Community which is growing uh which can hopefully kind of spread it more widely it's really beautiful my last question is is there anything I didn't ask that you want to say Andy I don't think so I think we've covered most of it James P ends his book finite and infinite games with this not there is but one infinite game and that's that's lovely I think because Infinity

is this kind of like pluralist IC concept by definition there's so many different kinds of infinity who knew uh but there's there's there's this notion of Oneness in it as well uh and I think that that's probably the thing that keeps me most optimistic and playful is the remembrance that it's like it's all part of one process right irrespective of the different stories and narrative streams that I see moving underneath each of the different coins that appears and disappears as time has passed especially in the last 10 years I've seen lot of them right and I I I think a lot about the underlying stories meme coins in the most recent cycle really represent kind of the spiritual nihilism right so and there's this authoritarian

paternalistic appeal to Authority that one finds in certain ways of casting narratives around store of value whatever it is but the thing that really keeps me playful is this like remembrance of Oneness and Oneness is not a static concept it's not it's not a number right identity is actually the name for you know the when you talk about identity in maths that that means one and I love that because like it it is a pointer to like what our real identity is and I think that that's like a big part of what the underlying narrative work needs to coordinate us around right is like

remembrance of this shared identity without ever trying to enclose or predetermine what that is allowing it like a room to breathe and play it's you know the symbol which perhaps best captures this is the Eno because it's this one like perfect stroke but it breaks at the end and it it illustrates that what is with the end is with that and it leaves space for God to escape that's how they describe it and you know I I love that because it's it's exactly what I've been trying to say throughout this whole episode that like one shouldn't try and predetermine what these things are and certainly it's not about pushing a particular narrative or

saying there is a specific reason that we should coordinate or there is a specific like singular version of the good or the true or the beautiful but all of the like versions that we have are a part of like one Collective stream and if you have the courage and the honesty to drop your particular piece of Truth and beauty and goodness in there with a touch of humor and a sense of the total absurdity of like the whole thing then you know potentially it can really matter it can really have an

impact and not necessarily in the ways that are easy to quantify but like it's that kind of impact that I think is most lasting and it's most lasting because it's based on a realization that who I am is not like defined by this specific space between birth and death that who I am exceeds that that I share in that identity which is not uh just you know kind of limited uh in this particular like body and personality although this body and personality plays enormously in a great stream of things yeah so I hope that some of that

is carried by on and and I and I hope that like if you listen to this that you think about how weird it is that we can even like link those two concepts together that there is the potential to have this kind of conversation when talking about money because I don't think that it's been possible in a long time in a very very long time and that fact is very exciting even if you think that on is bullshits and you're not interested in taking on liabilities for people doing cool stuff for you uh you know I won't feel I won't feel offended if that's the case but you think a little bit more playfully about you know Oneness and your role in relating with it that's I love that well

what a place to end if you're listening to this episode you can check out Andy's work at x.com Crypt Wanderer uh you can check out honor community and then also there's a link in the show notes to these resources and also the colonel token studies on honor so thanks so much for joining the green pill podcast really enjoyed this episode Andy thank you K wow what an episode you just heard from Andy thud hope and I am excited about him because he's just so thoughtful and such a beautiful thinker I feel like I'm listening to an Allan Watts lecture whenever I hear from Andy and honor not money is just such a cool experiment in bringing his vision to the world thanks again for listening to the green pill. network podcast again we are featuring the people who are building a coordination a network Society of

thousands of hackers dreamers and doers who want to use crypto to bring positive some systems to the world people like Andy thud hope while you're here uh if you want to support the greenfill podcast you can collect this episode go to pods. medgreen pill and find all episodes and start collecting thank you to MMA on chain. and shroom chad. eth and also to yes for collecting our recent episodes there's a few other collectors also but uh they don't have ens addresses so uh if you're a collector of the episode and you want to shout out on the podcast then please set an ens name I'm not going to read your 16 character heximal address again go to pods. medgreen pill and start collecting green pill episodes

today if you'd like to support the podcast while you're here might as well make an offering to our algorithmic overlords Please Subscribe rate and review it really helps other people find the regenerative cryptoeconomic movement well this was a fun episode hope you enjoyed it Andy is wow just such an amazing thinker and doer and uh I'll see you on the next one peace