Programmable IP in the Age of AI

Transcript

GM and welcome to the rollup today's episode is with Jason from story protocol and story is building the programmable IP layer IP is the practice of protecting our ideas so that someone else cannot pass off our ideas as their own and traditionally this has been done through a very slow bureaucratic process of trying to get a patent it occurs with a lot of back and forth and it takes weeks if not months or years Jason recognizes and so he decided want to build story protocol to fix this problem patents just don't move as fast as we need them to in this new paradigm of ultimate idea propagation online and so in doing so Jason built story protocol

and he also built an idea economy because once we take our ideas and we tokenize them as IP now we can combine them and compose them with all the liquidity that's available on chain and in defi we talk about this idea economy as well as all of the enforceability that is necessary for tokenized IP and we also talk through some of the history that dates back all the way to the printing press on why IP is important I hope you enjoy this video and before we get into it first a word from our sponsors that help make all of this possible enjoy fuel achieves Higher throughput by utilizing a novel utxo based approach that allows for parallelized execution this design significantly accelerates transaction

processing which enables fuel to handle vastly more transactions than nonp parallelized systems thanks to advancements introduced by Fuel ethereum rollups are set to be more powerful than ever before and fuel is not just enhancing ethereum Roll-Ups it's redefining them making them faster more scalable and more adaptable to meet the needs of modern applications and developers go to fuel. network that's fuel. Network to learn how to build on the rollup OS welcome back to the rollup uh here today with Jason Z talking about programmable IP Rob and I are big pudgy penguin guys so this is an area of crypto space which

we've kind of left unexplored on the rollup so we're excited um Jason welcome in doing great doing great excited to get into it yeah I me let's just do just that let's jump into it what is programmable iip what does that mean and what is like the history of Ip absolutely so without going into whole full-blown history lesson of Ip I think before even talking about what is programmable IP it's important to just understand like what is this idea of intellectual property and how does that relate to crypto so what I'll say is you know at a high level if you look at the history of intellectual property as an idea it it's not it's not a natural idea right natural property or like physical property is very intuitive so I have a

house it's on the beach there's only so many houses that can be built on the beach it's naturally scarce right and so there can only be 10 houses or if we build a highrise there can only be 100 houses so the idea of property itself started from physical property with natural scarcity and intellectual property ideas creative Works patents trademarks they're not like that right if I have an idea and I whisper it to Robbie and then he goes and tells you and tells the rest of the world and post on Twitter I'm screwed because now everyone can use that idea there's no natural scarcity it's not like a beach it's infinite and and so I think there's a very interesting property here if you look at the history of Technology it really shapes also the history of intellectual property so this idea of intellectual property wasn't invented

until the Gutenberg Press was invented and what the Gutenberg Press did was it just took ideas and made them infinitely replicatable right so now I can take someone else's work and just put it on this printing press and share it with the world right and and when that happened we need a new way to incentivize people who are creatives people who are trying to create new ideas because otherwise they had you know their ideas could be copied at scale so with new technologies like literally you know few years after the gudenberg Press uh statute ofand was created which is the first copyright loss so with new technologies come the need for intellectual property and now we're seeing this new era come in where with the internet and especially with generative AI we're not just copying

things anymore if you go on chat gbt you ask it to write a poem you're sure it's using data from the internet but it's not copying anything that existed before so our copyright system literally the word copy is in there it's completely broken now with generative Ai and you're seeing the sort of cracks that at the edges right you have chat gbt and open AI being sued by the New York Times for regurgitating things from the New York Times even though it's behind a pay wall you're seeing interesting experiments that are also breaking the edges of the IP regime with things like SoundCloud remixes having Drake's voice and the weekend's voice getting to number one in a day uh right there was this guy named Ghost Rider he put out a song hard on my sleeve that went to number one on Soundcloud and neither Drake or the

weekend were actually involved but it was an amazing song right and and with YouTube there's Harry Potter in the style of Blen siaga Harry Potter if Wes Anderson were the director and these are these are great these are amazing for creativity but as you can see like our current IP regime has no way of handling it it's like a new Napster moment right like the internet is inevitable Ai and creativity is inevitable like we cannot cease and desist and and you know try to hammer down like play this game a wacka but at the same time there's no value capture right because if I'm JK rling someone creates awesome Harry Potter and Balenciaga video I don't get anything that person doesn't get anything for all the effort they put in we just have to take it down right so that's the current model it's lose lose for the Creator and

for the remixer so can we create a new IP regime just like after the Gutenberg Press we need a new IP regime can we create a new IP regime that introduces something that's native to the internet where we can have a win-win where Creator can register their IP somewhere have everyone be able to use it remix it with their terms and their economic settings and then allow both the Creator and the remixer and of course this IP to grow like a network with network effects as a platform so that's that's kind of the change that we're seeing now and we don't like this infrastructure doesn't exist right now which is why we have all these problems and so as we enter this new era really what we're trying to do as story is introduce this idea of programmable YP and we think just as the

Gutenberg Press created this challenge that need to be solved programmable IP will be the sort of Ip internet native IP standard that will allow creators and also their communities to be able to monetize and sustainably grow the internet um so that's the idea at a high level and I'm happy to dive deeper into exactly what that means yeah before we get too deep into the technical architecture of how you've constructed this coordination mechanism for programmable and programmable IP and and kind of ownership of ideas before we get into that let's just take a like a quick zoom out while while we're still high level and talk about why ideas need to be owned like there's this thing of like Collective Consciousness like if I put out an idea like it it just kind of like

generally benefits the Zeitgeist and then ultimately maybe the person who executes on that idea first or best is the one that should kind of like have ownership over it why is it important to protect these ideas from a first principles perspective absolutely this is a really really great question and it comes at the core of some of the values that crypto has because crypto is all about open source Open Access and sharing ideas and so a lot of times when people think about IP they think oh we're trying to gate ideas and prevent people from using them right so I think that at a high level the mental model to have is there are two forces the forces of openness where everyone can make use of ideas and that's a public good and the force of innovation where people are incentivized to to create new ideas

right and so if you have complete openness everyone can use ideas that's great but then no new ideas are created because why would you create a new idea when you have no incentive to do it right you might have some Innovation on the margins but really it's about incentivization and that's I think a language that crypto you know and blockchain people can understand it's about having the right level of incentives and balancing that with openness right so if you have completely closed system where you know you have a patent or copyright that lasts forever then there's no you know you you the society gets no utility from the IP because it's only used by one person and so really you know even though you're incentivizing this one person a lot to create an idea Society doesn't benefit from that incentive so that's bad but if

you have a purely open IP regime everything's totally open then why would I go and create new drugs why would I go and create new art why would I go and create a movie because there's no way for me to keep doing that so it's all about finding the right balance and the way we think about programmable IP is very important is that when you program something you're setting the configuration you're setting the settings for how you want it to be used so on story you can go cc0 you can go full cc0 like now you can also go full Disney or like web 2 traditional media and not let anyone use your IP but the magic we think is in the Middle where we allow people to say look you can use it under these settings or if you pay me this much and then you know there can be

a sort of Organic darwinian Marketplace where people can say hey this sort of level of openness seems to work really well and people are really succeeding this sort of seems too open it seems not open enough and for different creators that they might have different tolerances but the idea is to give people the ability to choose where they sit on the scale between openness and closed and between you know public value and private incentive let's start with some definitions uh because I think our our audience may be a little bit unfamiliar with kind of like what c0 means like how open or closed is that and then and then Disney and kind of like what their current uh what their current open L level is and then once we just kind of like unpack that a little bit I want to I want to kind of use this

frame a reference of incentives that that you talked about leading into this and and highlight if you would the incentives that exist in I'll call it Trad IP what is the current incentive model there and then how does that how is that similar or different from the incentive model in programmable IP okay I love that so just to give everyone a primer cc0 is basically a very common type of license used to give away all of the commercial rights and make IP completely open so nouns is a great example of this anyone can use nouns you don't have to have the nft you can literally right click save as you can make money off of it you don't have to share any of that money just think about cz0 as like the absolute most open you can get as a Creator you create

something you're giving up all your rights to monetize that anyone can do what they want with the IP they don't have to share any of the revenues and so there's no so that's CC zero and then if you look at the way that Disney works very different so they're creating IP you know with writers and artists and animators that they've hired and then they're mon monetizing that IP in a single player way right so the company is Distributing this and deals with Distributors but the idea fundamentally is that the IP is an asset owned by one person and that that one person is the one that gets the benefit from that IP right they can show it to other people and monetize but it's a very sort of single player mode and so when you think about you know what are the incentives in that single player mode you'll see

you'll see that this sort of cracks start to show and the best way to see this is that you look at Hollywood right we have it's a fundamental question of we have the best technology in the world now to create movies to create music we have generative AI like you've seen the open AI models where you can create insane videos so everyone has Godlike tools and everyone has god-like Distribution on the internet right so like I can go post a Tik Tok and tomorrow like tens of millions of people can see it if it goes viral so why are why is Hollywood struggling like they they should be the ones in the lead leveraging this distribution leveraging these tools yet last year six months out of the Year there was a massive strike of all the writers right and all the the ACT in Hollywood and so clearly the

economics of Storytelling are broken because the incentive model what happens when you have the single player model is you're incentivized to basically protect your IP and to not let other people build on top of it because that could be stealing you know your upside and what happens is you you get into this war because attention has become super scarce on the internet right so now if like let's say I'm Netflix right I'm more traditional model I create a show I'm competing for attention with my IP with every other Show on Netflix I'm competing with Tik Tok I'm competing with Amazon Prime I'm competing with Apple TV I'm competing with movies I'm literally competing with anything that could attract people's attention so how do I compete what are my incentives I need to get as many eyeballs as possible but I can't do that organically so I

have to pay for ads so you have this huge problem in the economics of traditional storytelling in single player mode where you have ever Rising customer acquisition costs where for every dollar that you earn 99 Cents needs to go back into this ruthless battle for attention in the advertising game so it's not like these traditional studios are evil or stupid it's just that 99 Cents out of the dollar needs to goes to ads and Only One S can go to the creators so can I pause you just real real quick because I'm sure you could you could keep going for for a while here I want to just draw a quick a quick analogy to like the way that IP and advertising Works in that traditional sense and like the block supply chain on a blockchain because I can see how on a blockchain you have these block builders

that are bidding for transactions they're bidding for transactions in the tra traditional IP world you have these you have these uh uh these companies that are bidding for eyeballs bidding for eyeballs in this attention economy and then you end up squeezing all of the value that that ends up getting created because you have to once again bid for that cost uh that cost of the eyeball cost of attention similarly in in in blockchain in me you're bidding on these transactions you're trying to get this order flow or this attention flow uh in a blockchain world so that you can fulfill that and similarly you're bidding on this attention so that can fulfill that that uh users's request for some sort of content or entertainment and so I just I think it's very it's

very cool because we haven't quite seen this convergence uh play out yet but uh please please continue cartey is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain technology carty enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cy. that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today oh yeah yeah sure

I'll I'll wrap up because I do want to talk about the tech as well and exactly what programmable means but so that's a single player mode you you kind of have to you know as as Robbie you put it you have to be in this rot this war you have to bid for attention and the the problem is like why can't we Market IP like Facebook why can't IP be have Network effects why can't it be a platform because Facebook never spends money on marketing right like in the early days just people just joined right and the more people joined the more valuable the network became people just advertised it themselves so why can't IP have those effects in order to have those effects IP needs to be multiplayer IP needs to grow into a network so you need to go out of the single player mode and have

the ability to share the upside and the rights in your IP to other people this goes back to what we're talking about with AI like imagine if I could create a new franchise and instead of shutting people down when they create AI remixes of it or when they contribute fanfiction to it we can actually give them some upside some economic incentives and skin in the game to go and create different versions of that world so we think this is going to really supercharge IP and create a new economic model and that crypto is the best way to do that so that that's kind of what we see as a difference is can we use programmable IP to turn IP from single player high cost to multiplayer network effects so talk us through the incentive mechanism here like talk us through the new economy that comes out with programmable IP in

multiplayer mode yeah I'm really glad you use the word economy because the way that like the best way to describe what this looks like is to make a comparison to Defi and we're very inspired at Story by what defi did for money and so that's actually where we took this term is programmable money and I think everyone in crypto understands that intuitively what is programmable money it's like the difference between this dollar bill I have in my wallet and a usdc or usdt and it's the same value right I'm not going to buy more or less with that dollar but now because this dollar is transformed into software because it's rable I can I can have this entire parallel Financial ecosystem that's limited only by the powers of software right like I can swap this usdc on Unis swap for eth stake that eth on Lio get Stak eth put into

compound get compound Stak eth all these are just independent pieces of software that like amplify what I can do with my money and they're all composable and they're all open but if you think about IP right and we've talked a lot to to pudgey we've talked a lot to the Zuki team like we're very close with these teams that are building some of these cool IP franchises if you want to actually transact IP uh it's still very off chain right like imagine that I wanted to create like a comic with you guys and I have a pudgy and you guys have an isuki right what would I do I would go read this license that's on a website for my PUD i' have to understand what the hell that means then I'd go look at your license for your isuki forgot okay what can I do then I have to

get in touch with you guys and work something out on a deal who gets 50% of the comic do you get 20% what what what are the rights can I use your IP in this or that way and then we need to actually codify that in a legal contract that none of us know how to make so basically like this is the same as if I wanted to swap on Unis swap I had to go call my banker and find a counterparty and then Robbie you have to go call your banker and you have to go call your banker and then we make that deal happen so yes you can move media on chain but we haven't moved the rights on chain okay and IP is not just media files it's media files plus rights the rules for engagement so what programmable IP is is and what

we're doing at story is allowing people to not just bring like this media file this image of a penguin or of an isuki but also all of how other people people can use that IP and license that IP and remix that IP on chain so you'll see the terms for you know how much you need to pay to use this IP where can you use a license who can create derivatives if you generate Revenue how much revenue do you have to share with the original all of that is on chain so you almost have an API for rights embedded in every single piece of content on the internet that's our goal every piece of content on the internet whether it's music or art or story has like almost like a file or an API an interface attached to it that allows other people whether it's a

program or a person to see how they can use it and so in this new analogy like if your IP is registered if your PUD is registered on story and my isuki is registered on story I just look through the story Universal IP database and I can see oh this is like a really cool IP and I want to use it and here are Robbie's terms click a button pay my eth get get a license and boom I'm off to the races right so there's no intermediate so story is like its own blockchain it's its own like layer is it a rollup or is it a L1 yeah great question so there's two so story has two components and the second component is actually something that we're just now announcing so really excited to share with you but the first component is the protocol so the protocol is where all

the core logic happens of what I just talked about that is a set of smart contracts currently evm compatible so we can deploy that on uh any really evm compatible blockchain but the really important part is we've also built a story Network and so the story network is essentially the world's first composable programmable IP ecosystem so we want this to be the goto place the sort of canonical location for all IP to be registered on chain and so we've natively deployed essentially a blockchain solution where the protocol is a first class citizen so IP registration is built into the network um really really cheap gas cost through data availability with Celestia so we have all of these different features native account abstraction so everything is by default web to UI if creators want

it to be we even created native pre- compiles that allow people to sign on mobile and so developers have access to basically the top set of tools gas fees that are extremely low subsense even at millions of transactions and this native IP infrastructure attached to this blockchain so we really want this to be the sort of Ip Hub or the IP layer of the internet and that's kind of what we're building so story is you know to summarize the smart contracts plus this blockchain that we're building that's focused on IP it's amazing with Celestia underneath millions of transactions sub one cent almost almost magical love uh love the architecture that you describe uh story protocol and story Network um walk us through what an example could look like because Andy and I are both Penguins uh you mentioned Zuki like nfts

are are are still thriving especially in in some of the core communities for each of these chains um I've seen Pudgies have this platform where you can you can kind of apply and then the centralized puggy company could choose your pudgy uh and make a plush I've actually got one you can see it it's right there and it's a little tiny it's a little tiny guy but they're making these and and they're picking and choosing which nfts they're going to use to turn into these physical toys so let's say I'm a toy company I'm not pudgy the company but I want to use nfts and I want to maybe make a physical isuki toy or a physical Mady toy how how

might those companies engage with nft holders and and use the story protocol or the story Marketplace to exchange IPS and and form engagements yeah it's a great question so I think what we're trying to do and overpass what you mention with py it's awesome example of like the types of interaction we want people to have we're close with Luka we know how much work the pudy team put into that that was something that's only available to you know one of the top NFC collections they spent months building it super complex so really like this is only you know the top 1% of projects can actually do this right and same with Hollywood like if you're Hollywood studio okay you don't have to worry about licensing you have 100 lawyers you know all the people you're licensed to have 100 lawyers so this is not for the

top 1% right but even for PUD it was very difficult to build that and it took a lot of custom architecture a lot of legal work like you know how to talk to lawyers create customer licenses things like that what we want to do is one click you know no one has to worry about the legal no one has to worry about the tech what happens in the example you gave is we don't even need the Zuki team to be on board although you know you know I think they would be but the idea is you're an isuki holder you have the rights to your isuki this really cool Innovation where you have IP as an NFC you just register on story protocol now you set your terms for how you want other people to use it now literally any application that's connected to destroy

protocol can Surface this entire universe of of your IP of everyone else's IP whether it's a game that's leveraging these IPS for skins whether it's some sort of nft marketplace whether it's a licensing like ipy defi sort of tool where your IP can be used as collateral every app that's connected to story now has access to your isuki and it can see the terms that you've set right so you can imagine something like overpass but built for every NFC collection where they can just pull like from an API all your isuki everyone else's stuff they can Surface your terms and then anyone else whether it's a studio a game whatever that wants to user IP just clicks a button and they get a license automatically and that license is also an nft it can be traded it can be fractionalized we used as collateral so there's this whole sort of

financing Market as well around IP which is literally like hundreds of billions of dollars Market but super locked up asset right so there's also a real world asset Angle an rwa angle to this where you can actually start making liquidity and price Discovery for IP as well by registering a story what might these terms look like give us some ideas yeah so the terms can get extremely complex we built like a programmable IP license think about it is a YC safe of story protocol where it should work for 99% of use cases but if it doesn't you can bring in your own license into the protocol but for for most people the programmable IP license with the pill is going to have most of the options they need and that has like 15 different terms that you can set like region upfront fee all these other things that

you can set that's probably too complicated for most people so we've also created like very very simple presets so you don't have to worry about the details if you don't want to but to give you an example of some of the core variables one is upfront fee like how much does it cost to generate a license you can set this as high or as low as possible you can also let a defi protocol set it for you so like hooks very similar to unit swap V4 so it can be a variable pricing scheme or like a bonding curve or something like that um upfront fee can and then is this a commercial derivatives or non-commercial derivatives so if I have a license can I just use it for my own like use cases but not make money off of it if or can I make money off of it as well right

getting this license and then Downstream of that is if I can make this commercial like if I get a license I can Revenue earn revenue from it what percentage of the revenue do I need to share so some of those economic terms are really important um and I think that's what we really focused on yeah yeah because the economy is like is it also has to be programmable right and I imagine that a lot of the the sales that occur from licensing these IPS whether you turn it into a movie or a game or or a physical toy a lot of those sales are going to happen offchain so how do you enforce these Revenue share agreements between nft holder and company that that creates something with that IP how do you enforce the in that the incentives do

end up going to the nft holder yes yes so in the onchain setting this is easier right as you alluded to because we can actually see what's going on we built a royalty module that essentially once a license agreement has been set in stone creates a wallet where you can shove funnel the royalties into and then because we have this whole IP graph right like there can be three layers of derives they can Branch out it's very complex but our royalty module basically if money comes into any of the edges of the graph it will flow appropriately through the graph and will handle all that logic for you whether the graph is 100 deep or Too Deep right so if it's on chain it's simple but as you asked what do we do when I like create a t-shirt collection with an isuki that how do you

how do you enforce that yeah exactly so there's different layers to this the first is that there's a happy path right the happy path is even for offchain revenues we have a wallet created every time you generate a license where the money from that deal should go so number one is there's if you're a good actor you want to follow the rules you can put it in there and essentially it's just as if you created onchain Revenue right that's the happy path and I wouldn't discount that like especially in crypto people discount that but think about Getty imides shutter stock these are both multi-billion dollar businesses if I go on Getty I can like I can I can screenshot anything right like and it's easy to get rid of the watermark but people don't want to break the law so like you know it's not profitable to do

that so there's a happy path that's first layer the second layer is we've built a dispute module so if you notice that you've created a deal and this is a decentralized we've created incentives around people being able to dispute uh just like you know Liquidators in a lending protocol so anyone can dispute but if you notice that someone is not doing what they agree to including this royalty payments you can dispute them and if that dispute is successful we shut down the ability for that IP to generate revenue and there's a reputational element as well and then that is no longer shown on the API level like we're never going to censor IPS on the protocol level but on the API level we won't show it and that's the second level of escalation which is onchain disputes the final level is and this is why the programmable IP license is

important these are actually binding legal contracts right this isn't like some sort of onchain game that we're playing it's real legal contracts we've created one to one to match with our onchain logic so in the worst case scenario someone is not paying you a significant sum of money you can go and take it to court and we've worked very very hard with legal teams to make sure that this is something that's enforcable so the worst case scenario on story is the best case scenario for creators today which is someone screws you over you have to go to the court so we have different layers of escalation and we try to move as much of it on chain but in the final analysis like you can still you know it's still legally binding so in that in that middle part if you can dispute it means that

you need a dispute resolution process yes and so oftentimes onchain Dows or Pro protocols will use social consensus in in in resolving those disputes you can think to ethereum and ethereum classic should we or should we not Blacklist this this person's tokens and they they ask the ethereum community everyone voted using their ethereum tokens they ended up hard forking away ethereum Classics tokens and so social consensus calls for a token and so feel free to answer this if you like but I almost I was going to retract this question because you it sounds like you don't need a token to enforce social consensus or dispute resolution in this

mechanism you actually rely on legal agreements to enforce social consensus you you go to like a normal legal proceeding to enforce whether or not this dispute should be resolved in one way or the other you you don't need to rely on like how a tokenized community would vote you can rely on how like a jury would vote and so I think it's an interesting like element of like almost like it's an interesting element of modularity because we haven't seen like offchain or modular social consensus quite yet um and you guys are plugging that in which is which is uh fascinating to see how how this is going to play out a quick comment on there with I think you exactly pointed out there needs to

be a dispute policy so the way we built our protocol is extremely neutral composable pluggable modular and so there you when you register an IP you choose what dispute policy you want to use when your IP gets disputed so we can we have an offer we have a default story protocol policy but think about things like claros like Uma um or even it can be a completely offchain policy if you if you want so you select the dispute policy that will be triggered when your IP gets disputed and other people can see that as well so if I see like you've registered your isuki but the dispute policy I don't trust because it's all offchain I won't license your work like it's just a Marketplace of trust that's that's what we're building and so um you're right that not all the dispute policies will involve a token some of

them can have the you know can be from a dow that has a token or you can create a separate token just to create some sort of voting scheme for specific dispute policy so there's many different options when it comes to dispute policies but that's all transparent so you can decide whether you trust it or not before you build on an IP yeah very cool shout out Uma guys I mean they're they're building some really General flexible Tech um and it's really cool to see this use case navigating multiple blockchains can be complex and combersome let's say you want to deposit into a lending Market on polygon because they have the best rates but you only have funds on optimism so you bridge your funds to polygon only to realize that you need madic to pay for gas maybe you use a centralized exchange or you ask a friend to pay for the gas

but only then can you finish your transaction in a chain abstracted future powered by connects this is not the situation you can connect your wallet to any dap from any chain with all the complexities of swapping bridging and depositing all completely abstracted behind the scenes head over to connect. network that's connect. Network to learn more about connect chain abstraction toolkit I just had one last question you always that up yeah you said that you had talk to the penguin Community um is that something that that could be a possibility in the future where you know

pudgey Penguins or other nft collections could utilize story like permissionless to have my penguin be used in movies or books or Etc so actually if you're a penguin holder you can literally register your Penguin on story now it's on testnet of course but once we go on Main net you don't need permission from anyone right this is the true like nature of programmable IP it's just like what defi like you have the token it's yours right uh and you can do whatever you want so as a py holder you can register your IP set your terms on story and literally anyone can already license it that being said like I said we've had many conversations with the pgy team so there's there's a possibility that something cool could happen there um and and we've talked a lot of other top collections in the space so this is

something we're very looking out for but like I said you don't need permission from from these projects right you just need to be able to have the IP yourself but on the project level I think there could be some cool collaborations as well awesome Jason thanks so much for coming on man this was uh this was something I think a lot of people had been thinking about and it seemed pretty intuitive um and so it it's very very cool to see it finally come to fruition definitely yeah I appreciate it yeah thanks for the time guys appreciate it cheers man