Private Order Flow is the new MEV

Transcript

this episode is brought to you by core the brand new non-custodial wallet that offers a seamless and secure experience on Avalanche you'll hear more about core later in the show [Music] all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve if you're listening to this on the Empire feed Santi uh Santi went soft on Santi got kovid actually from token 2049 so uh if you are hearing this on the Empire feed we have plugged the bell curve Roundup with Vance and Michael uh who are the founders of framework Ventures um into the Empire feed so enjoy there's also disclosure that we have to read uh because we have been apparently leaking too much Alpha on the show so we are

reading a new disclosure the views expressed by my co-host today including Michael and Vance are their personal views and do not necessarily represent the views of any organization with which my co-hosts are associated and nothing in this episode or any episode of bell curve is construed or relied upon us as Financial technical tax legal or other advice damn you guys uh well did you just get new lawyers or something that is a good that is a good disclaimer cover all the bases I have I have seen that email come through every week being like you guys need to fix the disclaimer I'm like ah or the disclosure so anyways here we are um sorry guys it's all right it's all right

all right we got a lot to talk about today um so I want to jump straight into it we are do not have uh macro Mike joining us today so we will be skipping the macro we will be skipping the charts that I think uh are just a bunch of tea leaves what we are going to do is jump right into sushi so a couple things I want to talk about today Sushi um maybe Solana Mev maybe polygon supernets I want to get your guys's take on Cosmos and the whole narrative and just cause Adam 2.0 potentially talk about this idea about uni chain and like app chains right after Cosmos but per usual we'll see where this conversation takes us uh for those who missed it uh Sushi swap um uh brought in a new head chef so I can kind of give you let me share my

screen here and show you guys uh the story if you can see this here um Sushi swap head chef election was settled by golden tree and Cumberland the reason that that was the title of the blockworks article is that there are 13 million votes um to basically elect a new chief executive of sushi swap aka the head chef uh Cumberland and golden tree uh cumberland's a huge like OTC desk Market maker um trading firm in crypto golden tree is a massive asset manager they have 47 billion dollars under management uh they cast a combined 8.1 million of the 13 million votes uh there were three other kind of big whales that cast 11 million of the 13 million votes so 11 million of the 13 million votes were cast by just

these five big whales and they elected this new guy Jared gray who used to be the CEO of D5 platform eons Finance there are two other people someone named Andy and someone named Ken who finished second and third so sorry sorry for you guys Andy and Ken um Michael and Vance what do you guys think about this I mean I think uh you kind of got to go into the history of sushi first um which like you know the very like Cliff Notes version is uh launched is like you need to swap copy pasta uh you know they vampire attack them with tokens it was like kind of this populist movement there's like so much drama with sushi swap you know uh Chef uh Chef Nomi oh yeah Nomi rugs returned it um a lot of behind the scenes stuff

happening um Joseph Delong was the CTO for for a good while and and was kind of like the like beating the populist drum against uniswap um like he he left there was like a struggle for for leadership and this thing's kind of been like you know floating in the water for probably like a year now just waiting on on what it does next and um I had honestly kind of written Sushi swap off as kind of like one of these uh D5 protocols that was like you know frog Nation uh Luna like too decentralized like not enough central control not enough of a strong leadership figure and so you know had written them off was surprised to see somebody step up and say like I want to be the head chef of

sushi um digging into it like it it does make sense like there is some value in this ecosystem like there's certainly a good deal of trading volume I think for us uh projects that have a lot of like emotional and drama baggage are hard to kind of like you know be excited about I think like you know uh it's definitely one of like kind of like the more like rookie style mistakes of like just saying like oh yeah like we can fix this you know like I can I can save this project like there's some that you definitely can there's like probably a large group that you can't um but yeah I mean this is probably the first E5 protocol that was super decentralized to have someone pick up the reins and try to run with it like yearn you know uh Sushi swap frankly like these are kind

of the two main ones that we're waiting to see what happens long term but it's certainly a positive sign I think just to piggyback on that um I I I kind of think about this in the comparison of centralized tech companies or startups uh you know the rate of decision making the speed of the the veracity of the decisions that are being made um everybody's swimming in the same direction you lose that with decentralization versus centralized and when you have these major pivots you know like this situation or or any other major pivots in in D5 protocols uh in in the past few years you know synthetics has gone through a number of pivots or changes it used to be called haven um that takes a really really strong

founder usually or a really really strong person to be able to Rally the community get the core contributors on board bring in new people to help fill gaps or grow the team and it it's also true in tech companies you know when when you have sort of a founder-led technology company and this is one of the the tour Theses of a lot of venture capital firms they want to see Founders be the CEOs um you know Mark Andreessen has talked about this a lot is because you have the content you have the history you have the ability to buy in the rest of the company and you also have the ability to to have a long-term view as opposed to someone who's going to be a little bit more mercenary or short-term oriented um you know in situations like this so I

you know hats off to the team I wish him the best um but but I think generally it's going to be a really hard uphill battle unless you have that history you know of being the original person and just decentralized organizations are going to be tougher yeah does does sushi sauce still have the same model so I my memory of sushi um is that they have the is was a fork of uniswa but they put in fees basically so that is what distribution holders got like 0.05 and liquidity providers got like 25 bips or something like that and that was really the primary difference was on the fee structure yeah and I think they I I could be wrong they also maybe did like the X sushi so like the X token concept first for stating

um was another component they also released like Trident like it's not like a pure copy paste Fork um of unisop anymore like there's certainly differentiation I will say like you know thinking back on it like a little bit more deeply like this is not the first time someone's tried to turn this around I remember Defiance uh I remember ARCA as well uh I think the difference here is like you have the guy and it's always just a matter of like who's sitting in the seat so you know we're gonna find out pretty quickly if if he's legit or not which is cool but I really like to see people just like doubling down and throwing their weight behind something I feel like a lot of times in crypto like everyone's like perpetually hedging like what's the next rotation what's the next app category what's the like it's like no like you

actually have to sit there and like Hands-On keyboard like build this thing and so yeah I think that's a positive there are no amount of Jeff Dorman tweet threads that could save uh could save Sushi not not enough in the world not enough but not for lack of trying um but let me I'll play devil's advocate here actually um so argument that says this is maybe not going to work out and that's who she's just gonna continue kind of following is that uh super messy project they've been out without kind of leadership since uh Xerox Maki they've been looking for the CEO for a long time like insane amount of drama drama around like how much to pay people too which was just like all out in the open because it's a dow um and like you just got to imagine that unisoft's just gonna continue innovating

more more than uh Sushi will um the counter argument maybe could be that okay so Jared gray gets put in as head chef uh process obvious obviously wasn't that smooth the community had a lot of pushback because it felt like this very centralized uh process but he's going to focus on uh I don't know it's like you've got this it'll be interesting to have like a non-crypto not I guess he is never mind I was gonna say it'll be interesting to have a non-crypto like non-d5 Builder come in and really focus on just like hyper focusing on revenue and market share but he is I guess he is a defy he did one kind of where I think you were kind of heading um and one of the things that I've been

thinking about just in reading this news is like okay let's take the competitive set of sushi versus UNI and who knows the death what the details are and we can probably talk deeper about this uh later or or we can save it for now too um but you know what's going on with uni right now you know there there are at least rumors that they're raising for uniswap labs how does that relate to the unit swap token does that change their General strategy going forward does it mean that they're maybe moving away from you know a token based decentralized Dao based model um not to say that they've ever been as decentralized to Sushi but you know like there are big questions going on right now as to like what the direction of uniswap is going forward and and I think there's there's a bit of like okay if

they're going to say then then maybe Sushi's going to be able to zag and have some counter position perspective um so I do think that's actually kind of an interesting Dynamic of like what's going on with uni yeah I think the other part is like um uniswap is certainly really impressive right now I think they've got like 70 80 percent of the market share of like Dex is on at least like Ethan ether l2s um what we found just you know being LPS like we were the largest LP and you need to swap for I think like over a year at one point um it's really hard to make money in the unib3 setup especially when you're like you know accounting for things like permanent loss and like your positions being stale like it's incredibly hard to

make money and a lot of times when you're an LP and you swap E3 you're actually losing money and so like the long-term customer for these like all of these things is not actually the swappers it's the LPS like the liquidity needs to be there to manifest swappers right now is a swapper on unit Swap and it's someone who uses this stuff a lot like I feel like we're getting really good potentially too good execution on a lot of things that are either stale or you know LPS that are having problems making money and so you know one thing that I consider is like is it really uniswap versus Sushi swap is there a better different model that's going to come out and actually like disaggregate these um and I think the answer is probably yes um over the long long term uh just because like the lp setup for for unit

swap LPS right now is so dire and you're not really making a ton of money um like we've had startups that have gone off and tried to build position managers for uni V3 and have done you know like I guess like two years of economic simulations on how it works and what what the best optimal position is they're like we can't build a position manager that makes money here and so like that is like a pretty big red flag and I think what that points to is like there has to be some other model if is it payment for order flow is it you know something else that that really comes in and disaggregates it like you know like people uh like okay you're trying to compete with Google in 2001 uh what's the best way to do that probably not build a search engine probably go build

like a social media Network like there has to be some other Vector that is the real competition because this doesn't seem like it's the one yeah I mean here's maybe another competitive angle that they could take so it's it even though what's this guy's name Jared gray it seems like he's coming from from uh from defy he's clearly backed by Wisdom Tree in Cumberland um and it seems like Wisdom Tree and Cumberland we're doing some work behind the scenes before the vote to make sure that the community was was kind of backing this guy um maybe Sushi now becomes like you know you've got this protocol that's spitting off Revenue they've got the fee structure already implemented like maybe uni becomes the um the excuse me sushi becomes like the protocol that's favored by some of these like bigger more

traditional funds right like uh I don't know if you guys saw Avi Feldman from Wisdom Tree Wisdom Tree is obvious out of crypto Wisdom Tree Wisdom Tree is a 47 billion dollar asset manager they I mean they have a tiny microscopic position it's five million dollars I think which is like 0.01 of their book if I'm doing that math right or like even less than that well I think golden tree is their crypto sub right no golden tree is defined golden tree is the fund oh you're saying Wisdom Tree uh golden tree thank you thank you golden tree okay uh golden yeah golden tree um and they they came in and they posted this government uh this thing on the governance Forum being like hey we want to help like we want to help with tokenomics we want to help with General design and general strategy we've been

talking through it with the team so if someone like a golden tree gets on board cumberland's on board like IDE maybe you could see like traditional funds coming up coming on to something like sushi and now you've got this new guy gray uh who's like clearly kind of uh favorable for these folks I think it's back to your point of like you know uh how many Jeff Dorman tweets can save this project it's like probably there's not enough and like you know like we throw our weight behind projects and we'll put liquidity and trading volume to them at the end of the day it needs to succeed on its own merits like there you know the VCS are not going to be able to make the difference you need good product would be trending in your favor as well like are you the solution that's better

or are you the direction that the Market's trending um too early to tell for sushi but it's going to take more than just like governance posts and this is like you know inclusive of all the things that we do as well like we're not going to be able to save projects or or really even make the difference we might give you 30 or 40 better off percent better odds but like at the end of the day it's about who's sitting in the chair so I think the big question here is what does it mean to have all the funds on your side right uh it doesn't mean that everybody's buying up Sushi and voting in governance and participating or does it mean that they're actually sending flow through because that's really all that matters at the end of the day and I I have yet to see an Institutional

perspective of hey this is the preferred institutional way to way to trade if we're still here in a year talking about this and you know golden tree has made good on all of their promises um I think that's amazing but like there is this thing with hedge funds where you know things are said you know is there the follow-through if the price goes in half is there still the same level of commitment um I think the plug for VCS which are often shot on is uh you know like we have like a 10-year time Horizon 15 if we really need it yeah yeah so I you know I mean that's a great call it's like when you see some of these hedge funds posting on Twitter uh that they're like long this thing like

they could be long for the next three days and then and then they're out like well I love how press love you know uh Bridge uh Tower Bridge whatever they're called love uh you know all the hedge funds like a lot of respect but you know here today potentially gone tomorrow like we just need to see yeah let's um let's pivot because I want to talk about um so we were talking about sushi swab let's talk about uniswap so Dan ellitzer um had this thread and like a piece uh about the inevitability of the uni chain so I'm just going to summarize it a little bit um he basically said the uni chain is and this will tie into our Cosmos conversation so over the past few months like talking about Cosmos there's been a

lot of interest in app specific chains um or like app chains basically uh Universal office the dominant decks they have 400 billion in volume across like 39 million trades in the past 12 months uh Dan's argument is that a unique chain is inevitable uh there are three as Dan puts it there are three costs right now to Dex Traders swap fees to L swap fees to LPS transaction fees uh to validators and Mev to the validators and market makers today um uh and and swaffey's being so like those are kind of the three costs right now that are happening and his argument is that if you moved on to your own chain uh you could get rid of a lot of those costs um and by being an app chain

unit would basically minimize the transaction fees and the Mev internalize all the marginal revenue from those activities that rep marginal revenue can flow to the uni token um and I think I think that's the argument there so I'm curious maybe Advanced what do you think of something like a unit swap moving to a uni chain right uh we've talked about this before but Robert leschner compound um and we have an episode with Robert and Stony coming out on Monday actually where I asked Robert about this like moving to their own chain they they tried right they tried to create compound chain with polka dot and it just they just didn't like polka dot um so what do you think of this is this something that you would recommend if you were advising the unisplot team uh uh no

um and here's why Defy is um D5 is infrastructure you know I'm not going to uniswap so that I can go hang out on uniswap.com like there's nothing there it's like a little swap widget there's nothing there's nothing there what I am going to do the swap for is so you know if I'm some retail guy from last year so I can trade Shiba Inu token so I can trade you know Dogecoin token um and so like I'm not going there for you to swap.com I'm going there so I can trade these these assets okay now let's let's follow the logic tree into like why are the assets on ethereum the assets are on ethereum because that's

where the highest you know net value of customers are that's where everyone's transacting it's like the world stage of finance and so like moving to your own chain uh might be great and it might sound like it makes a lot of sense but like who's coming with me you know it's like the the Jerry Maguire thing it's like you know it's like well there's not a whole lot of people coming with you there's no access on the Chain there's no value there there's also no users so you need to like re-instantiate this world convince everyone to launch on your chain like only then with the assumptions that Dan has really play out what do I think is like a more likely concept um I think uh the people who are actually drawing people into the ecosystem last year that was the stupid you know dog coins next year I think

it's going to be like the well thought out games that have a lot of utility when they're successful enough they're probably more of like the Machiavellian nature where they're like I want to internalize the whole thing I want to own the Mev I want to own the spread I want to own everything um and so they're going to launch their own chain um for uniswap they're gonna have to go launch on the new chains that like you know people are making like it's not going to be unit chain it's going to be like game shame and then uniswap will be so lucky as to be a major participant in that but like this is where this thing that we're just talking about like sushi swap versus uniswap is Sushi swap gonna get there first is you just walk gonna get there first is it some other payment

forward a flow model that gives more economics back to the games gets there first none of this has to do with uni-chain but it just is like illustrating why this is kind of like a faulty logic assumption yeah at the same point but um there is a fourth uh cost associated with trading on a DEX which is slippage slippage is predicated on how much liquidity you have in the amm and if you're building your own Chain by default you're going to have less liquidity until until the bridging is strong enough robust enough Lindy enough uh but that's gonna take a long time and it is this sort of um the reason why all this stuff is on ethereum is because you have the liquidity to be able to trade in size so where it's

actually useful and interesting and I think disrupting that is uh I I don't think that it's a great idea but I think it's also potentially disastrous for your core business as it exists today hmm Vince what's the counter argument to what you're saying like why should why should they like where in What scenario are you wrong or what would make you change your mind the counter argument to what I'm saying is something like um so assume the assets are going to launch on the place where there's the most customers and that is going to be you know Ethan Solana BSC whatever whatever you want the counter argument would be you know the assets that are being

traded or the games that are bringing people in um will continue to live at the layers that everyone knows and love loves but uniswap will be able to have uh people transact uh through them through their chain but still have all the assets live on these these commonly known and acknowledged base layers and like that might make sense that also has like a lot of like interoperability assumptions where like the assets stay in one place but like your taxes actually executing and functioning on another um you saw it frankly doesn't seem like the team to build up like a ton of like interop assumptions into their business model um I think that would be kind of the counter argument the other the other counter argument is now like uniswap is

such a big player and they have uh such large market share of the commonly traded base pairs so like Ethan USD that like maybe moving this whole thing over to the other ecosystem uh isn't so bad um I think the problem with that argument is that uh the the basis points and the slippage and the Mev on like eth usdc transfers really not that big like most of what uniflot makes its money on are like like the out uh the ample force of the world like remember when that was going on like when that uni swap pool was just like popping off they were rebasing the coin like speculative activity like unless they have that like this argument gets a lot weaker hmm Michael when does it okay so if it doesn't make sense for someone like

uniswap to do their own have their own app chain when does it make sense to me have to have your own app chain or maybe this is getting at the heart of your guys's thesis that you don't like the app chain thesis no so I have chain app chain thesis is Alive and Well I think when you need your own app chain it's when you need to control things like transaction throughput transaction costs you need to like control the economics of the core user experience and so I was actually going to say the counter argument to uh uh as well as have you know a core infrastructure layer that's you know it's kind of like driving a manual transition versus an automatic like you got to Source the validators you got to make sure they're all on board you got

to make sure the upgrades do it smoothly like right now ethereum basically takes all the back-end Services of running a a function like swapping assets and handles it all for uniswap and yes you have to pay gas fees and that's that's where you know users are paying those fees but if you want to if you want to kind of go manual and and do it yourself that's great it also provides an additional utility for the uni token itself because that's what is secure in the network and you know right now uniswap uh for uni versus Sushi it's just governance and you know there's no fees for going to it currently sure there's the mechanism eventually if that gets turned on but then having the additional utility for the unit token is something that I think you know could be

additionally valuable the the thing that I you know to advances earlier point on my D5 is infrastructure liquidity is so important for D5 it's really hard to see without a really solid example of extremely trusted bridging it's really hard to see how you can be able to trust putting all the liquidity on fragmented different app chains at least in the current state of the world maybe in like three to five years when we've like got IBC completely functional and everybody's in agreement but right now like I'm not going to put any of my assets into a bridge or trust a bridge in any size and so that that like negates me as like a large Dutch user uh of being able to like move my

assets over so what I would rather have is a situation where you have less value on these app chains and only bring them over when you need to and I think we've talked about this maybe two episodes ago I think actually games are a perfect example of how the app chain thesis plays out less D5 infrastructure because transaction throughput is not going to be a dating item nearly as much as games will be and if you can control your own technology you're on scale uh games make a better ecosystem uh example for for the for the app chain thesis versus D5 because you want to aggregate liquidity within D5 whereas games it's not necessarily as important for that yeah I mean you could I think you could argue

that liquidity is the most important feature of D5 100 but by far uh like if you think about it and I think the reason the reason I say that is because it enables liquidity across defy enables the experimentation of financial products to be 100 times faster in D5 than it is anywhere else um like I was talking to Mike about this the other day if you if you launch a like first off if you want to launch a financial app in like uh within like a bank like at Goldman like you want to launch a new product or maybe I was talking to you guys maybe this is on one of the podcast I think we've talked about this here but like if you want to launch a product at Goldman it takes like four years to launch the product if you want to launch a fintech

app you first have to launch the app it's easier to launch an app than launch a product within Goldman but you first have to launch the app how are you going to get users you gotta you gotta raise a [ __ ] ton of VC money go spend that on a bunch of Facebook and Instagram ads and then acquire use or you could you know obviously sponsor the bell curve podcast uh and acquire a bunch of users that way and then uh and then but like there's no way to get the liquidity takes years right and D5 liquidity liquidity can take minutes so I think that's the powerful part I mean this pitch this storyline this narrative is exactly probably in like most of our pitch decks yep I want one uh one just like brief note on unit swap not to get like too far

away from the app chain thesis but I think there was this really big old case on amm's and composability uh kind of like two two and a half years ago and I think where we kind of mostly saw that are things like flash loans and Mev kind of between like the big money markets of a compound and like uniswap and Sushi swap like I remember ndydx like when they used to do uh I think it was like unlimited flash funds or something but like there was this kind of like big imposibility moment happening and people like extrapolated out like okay cool like what's next and I think what people thought was next was effectively um and we we backed a couple a couple companies that tried to do this unsuccessfully was like cool you just want the super composable let's build stuff on top of it so like

what what did we fund we funded but things that were building position managers on unib3 and like it just turned out that you know the lp experience was not good enough where we could provide uh effectively um you know a way to manage his positions automatically to unit V3 so that really never happened the other category that we backed was kind of like margin or Futures Trading built on top of uh in one sec you're gonna kill you're gonna kill the listeners years with that sorry got a girlfriend um the the other thing that we backed and and you know which didn't work was kind of like people building out features and margin trading on on uniswap on top of it using like literally the underlying

liquidity from the unib3 positions to rehypothecate leverage positions that also didn't work it just became too hard to actually within the unib3 context like build out this thing and so one one kind of like additional like bearish like piece of information about you swap is like the composability movement of like higher order products being built on top of it just kind of hasn't happened um and so maybe that's like an Avenue that Sushi swap can uh can build out and differentiate on but that was something that we were super bullish on which just like didn't happen all right folks this episode is brought to you by our friends at Avalanche and Ava labs they have just dropped a new crypto wallet called core you're going to be hearing a lot about it over the

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I want to hear your thoughts from from that research the other place is um I really want to get you guys to take on private order flow um I was on a call earlier today with a big big Mev uh like like a cert uh with a searching firm and they're like private order flow is the new Mev and so I've just been trying to think about what that means and so Vance because you're giving me those uh the the cute eyebrow race I will pick on you for this answer see you're muted Michael should we let him just keep going for a while I could tell he's passionate about the topic that's good though I mean leave Investments there so of

course I am but uh I mean I I do think this is kind of like the okay if you want to go compete with Google go build something some on some entirely different vector and like what are the vectors um the first one is just like it's a better LP experience well actually sorry Vince can we zoom out can you explain private order flow to me yeah sure so if you think of a decks like uh you know like a front end like zapper for instance um they're the fourth largest decks like people don't know that but they serve a ton of flow towards uniswap and towards matcha and and what happens is uh you know someone wants to swap uh cool you're accessing the unit swap or the matcha RFQ system

um and the order executes that way um that doesn't really happen in traditional Finance there's not like these large latent pools of capital that are just willing to serve you execution at probably like a sub a better than you should expect price in in Trad five the monitor the the model of monetization is payment for order flow and what does that mean it means private order flow kind of like we've been discussing but you know Robin Hood has a trade okay cool we'll sell that order flow ahead of time to Citadel who you know gives the customer zero basis point fee swaps and internalizes all the flow and volume and use it to monetize it in a different way and so you know like let's apply that model to crypto so instead of uniswap um and you know this like 30 basis point

model you send it directly to a protocol or a set of people that are willing to bid ahead of time for your order flow um they're willing to bid up to the cost of you know something like a unit swap so the unit users get like 20 or 30 basis points of spread you know back to them um but on top of that the market makers sell the flow or they execute the flow and they give the wallet back you know a few basis points on that and like it's basically taking the payment for the flow model from tradfi and exporting it to D5 what are the downsides of this um not everyone is sufficient enough to bid on order flow like you have to have a very specific perspective you probably need to be based in some sort of you

know uh an Lai discipline to really kind of tell what it's worth long term and so it's a more exclusive kind of participant set and that's kind of generally how D5 has been trending you need V2 throw 50 50 eth usdc in we're all going to have a good time you know we're all going to make it uv3 okay you need to have a perspective on where you're setting your range like how the price moves like what are you going to do even more exclusive and we're kind of moving into an even more exclusive world with payment for overflow and private order flow in general um so the the negatives are um that it's a more exclusive you know experience for the LPS the other positive I would say is that this reduces Mev entirely like Mev is as a result of basically

um bad execution I would call it you know just at a very high level and this basically ensures that users get the best price at any moment based on you know the market Maker's understanding of the flow and the current price on the on the exchange so there's good and bad I would say it's overall more mature I would also say it's just easier to Port Place to Place if you've got a game launching on its own app chain you don't have to Port over the unit swap contracts you don't have to Port over the liquidity okay like what assets do you need okay I don't have those okay I need to go get them like professional market makers professional Dows that are bidding on overflow take care of that and so if you're a bull on the app chain thesis on the fragmentation thesis of

these chains private order flow is probably like a more interesting model than like reconstructing amms everywhere you go so one one thing that I just want to double click on and I'll pose the question back to Vance maybe or or I can take it on as well it's like let's let's just dive a little bit deeper onto the economic model so right now you've got a Trader that's on uniswap and they're going to experience the 30 basis point fee by using unit swap there's also going to be some you know cost of using the ethereum protocol which is the gas fees then there's also going to be Mev which may be another base couple basis points where they're not going to get the best execution because someone's going to front on them or or you know reorder the block as it's being produced how does this change when you've got

payment for order flow in the like and where does basically where does the advantage come from well yeah yeah it's like the the supply chain of Mev right is like user to the wallet to the Searcher to the Builder to the validator right yep so yeah so how do so how does that look different in in this system so um it'll be a good analogy here so if you think about like kind of uh an order book uh and like the order book goes from like you know the very top of the book The the trades that retail are doing uh to the very bottom of the book so like the

super complicated map trades that are happening and like people are fighting over them payment for order flow kind of lives at like a higher level of abstraction where you're just meeting the user right where they are you're saving them 30 basis points that it costs to trade on uniswap um and the wallet is making money instead of the LPS that's kind of like the fundamental change and that's like really at the top of the order book the MAV stuff is like okay is there sloppy execution on amm are there still orders like did the price move while the amm's price didn't move like that's where all the MAV stuff comes from and so really like payment for order flow kind of serves to eliminate Mev if it's you know if if everyone adopts this in Mass like it should eliminate a lot of the map

that exists in ecosystems today and so it kind of throws a lot of like you know to go back to like the unit Shane thesis like if map doesn't exist you know like that's going to be a big change for how blockchains are economically constructed it changes the Bold case for the app chain thesis it changes a lot of things what is it super bullish on it's bullish on the payment for order flow model a key key Point here is that you're sending these these orders this flow to a centralized Market maker you're not sending them through to unit swap it's different than that so like done correctly and we've made an investment in this space like we cannot talk about it because lawyers but um the best model of this why why paper forward flow sucks in Trad fi is because

it's only Citadel bidding on it and it's like you trading versus Ken Griffin 24 7 365. like and that's largely because of their regulatory mode in like the uh egalitarian payment order flow model that we think happens it's like you can have Dows bidding you can have centralized market makers bidding you can have groups of people like it's an auction process that includes a lot of different types of participants and like we don't want the model to be you know Australian against Citadel but like in D5 this time like we want it to be open to everyone and that's what I think a lot of the promises here so you're basically yeah okay I I okay I think I get it and so so in one example you can take all the transactions instead of routing them through like the open RPC you could you could take a

private RPC basically the private RPC sits as the aggregator um and uh oh interesting okay and the paperwork model too you're bidding for order flow ahead of time yeah so like instead of the wallet the auction happens before right right the auction happens before you're you're selling your order flow ahead of time yeah and so like you'd imagine you need some pretty complex like models to understand what future order flow is like uh or it is worth but yeah I mean these are these are the things where it's like the D5 Protocols are like you know going head-to-head with each other I don't know how much that moves the needle but if someone builds like at a

different level of abstraction this is going to be what eliminates the unit swaps of the world yeah so this got it so this could bring this would bring down if this system if this got bigger and bigger this would want this bring down Mev by like 95 or something something you basically get rid of MAV and D5 transactions uh that exist on chain because what you're doing in that stack of like which would be bad for the option which would be bad for the app chain thesis right which would be bad for the app chain thesis for D5 okay but good for for the gaming thesis for instance because once again you can route all these transactions to you know a centralized payment for order flow transaction module where you don't have to Source liquidity on each individual

app chain anymore the app chain can just be you know the experience the game what have you some economics but then the liquidity comes from a single point of you know peace off and like like who who benefits here um the people who are swapping uh they benefit because there's lower fees um they also benefit because there's lower Mev like you're not getting taken to the cleaners every time you swap uh the wallets win because they make more money you're able to monetize their order flow um like compare that to uniswap where it's like you know this cross-section of like semi-professional LPS kind of loses on most trades it seems like uh the wallets don't get to monetize or internalize any

of the monetization that happens because of these swaps like this is where in our opinion a lot of this is going um but but apparently I had one last Point um the key part here is that it's an open auction we don't want to recreate it all we want to recreate like a healthy ecosystem of people that are bidding on overflow that are reducing Mev that are giving customers back their money and they're monetizing wallets or whatever the the conception of wallets are and I think that you know does the app chain thesis get more bearish as a result probably at the start um but like Mev goes back into consumer's Pockets like they have more money to spend over the longer term if

you build something that's retentive and sticky you know they should be spending that back on you like that should just only kind of like increase the amount of value that you're capturing as an app chain so I don't I don't know if it's distinctly bearish long term I would say short problem yeah will the meth will the MAV vote like who's a big like like flashbots is flashbot's gonna look at this see that this is where the market is going and potentially monetize by hosting these private order flow auctions if you if you yeah we're participating in the private order flow or participating interesting um and and they have like even you know they have like more conflicts too like you're serving the order flow you're serving the MAV like like are you a wallet monetization service like my

instinct is that these need to be like purpose-built things like you can't really be a staking Service uh of you know a med service and like payment form to flow like there's gonna be things that succeed I don't think all the Meb is going to go away either like there's going to be a lot of appetite for uni V2 style LP experiences that just have met indigenously there um so it's gonna be a mixture I guess it's actually this nice like uh positive feedback loop which is private private order flow is going to help you build these higher value blocks which are then accepted more by validators yeah which because the as the blocks are accepted more then more people are going to give you order flow more order flow right so so it's uh it's actually a nice positive

feedback loop that's interesting huh all right I'm excited to see your guys's investment um I was explaining Mev to a couple folks on the team today actually and they were like like why don't we do Mev like why don't I make some money with MEP I was like it's a little more a little more complicated than that so I just want to ask you guys who who are the who's making a boatload of money from from Mev right now is it like winter mutant Alameda and jump is it like these tiny little five-person shops that have a bunch of quants like it's a mixture I I think like The Usual Suspects for sure uh just to be clear we don't do any Mev uh because that is a it just has some regulatory uh complications so yeah we we don't do any

of this um but your lawyer is so happy right now you've got that call out you've got the disclosure at the beginning phenomenal episode for the lawyer usually I'm the one getting in trouble too so there's also kind of like these one-man shops I don't know if you remember Edgar from last summer oh yeah yeah and he was gonna like crash ethereum I literally did not sleep that entire weekend because I was concerned that all of our things were going to zero but like guys like him like you know they're on like BSC they're doing they're doing their thing there um like BSC is kind of like there's different types of in each ecosystem too like BSE is like the land of like the penny slots people just like submitting you know hundreds of thousands of transactions trying to get like a like a little bit of Mev because the

transactions don't cost anything ethereum is more of like an equally uh like you can lose a lot if your algo starts to misfire like you start to spend a lot in gas fees like that could be very costly especially if you're doing a lot of transactions Solana is like an entirely different Beast where I think most of their transactions are probably Mev um but it's the same dollar value as like you know some other ecosystem that's comparable so it's kind of different and you have kind of like these different archetypes in each the bottom line I would say when you're thinking about Mev is like who's monetizing it's The Usual Suspects um it's a small handful of people maybe like five or ten and then everyone else is LARPing um as far as we can tell and I I think the the other thing too is

you don't have to be a Searcher or like get some huge raid that you set up and like start doing this I mean the staking most staking Services have met boost on uh you know it factors that into the whole thing and and so you know it's usually an additional like one to two percent in yield um so I you know I don't think that there's actually too much like individual or business opportunity to go after and like start doing Mev now hmm um let's talk about a lighter I want to get you guys to take on Cosmos but I want to Quick interlude I want to get your take on a lighter topic which is gaming um you guys raised like a massive amount of money I think it's 400 million and I forget if the whole fund is going

towards gaming or half the fund or like some large allocation towards gaming we have an episode that comes out on it's either Monday or Tuesday with um with stani and Rob uh Rob from compound and Stony from um from Ave it's the last episode of season one of bell curve it's a really good episode you guys should listen to it but actually at the end I was like what are you guys excited about for the next cycle and they're both like gaming like we just need we need need gaming to bring people in and we think that gaming will bring people in obviously Stanley had to plug lens uh into centralized social but they're both really excited about gaming so I just want to get your guys's like an update on like where is gaming at right now because gaming feels super quiet as like a user who is just

lurking on Twitter and like not investing in a bunch of games but for you guys I'm assuming you guys are saying like wow it's crazy space like I'm assuming all the l1s are fighting over different games like can you just give us a state of like gaming right now yeah and to go back to when we raised the fund and I think we closed at the end of q1 last year or uh this year wow it feels like a year ago um the uh you know the reason why we said and we didn't say like the whole fund or what we said is half the fund is earmarked for gaming and it's not you know the second you put down like targets for how much you want to put in each uh dollar value into each category you're like you're gonna ultimately be wrong but like at the time the reason

why we said that is because probably 60 to 70 percent of the game of the pitches that we see on a week-to-week basis relate to games in some way uh either individual solo titles um Publishers they're going after sort of like the ecosystem approach of games Bill to this day or back then I would say it's even higher now um and uh not not by much but slightly higher um and the quality of those pitches I'd say has you know waxed and waned a bit it's done up in time it's gone down in times but like it's been pretty consistent in terms of the quality um and so that's the reason why we said it it's just like well this is where we're spending like way more than half of our time like this is probably going to be a major theme because usually what

we're seeing from the pitch perspective becomes reality like two years later and it also makes sense too the the business model here is 200 billion dollars a year is the global Gaming revenue going up to 350 in the next five years and basically like that is 200 right now is more than art music and movies combined per year so like the entire box office music industry games is larger than that there's three billion people that play games every single every single month you know almost almost half of the global population so when you think about the market sizing there isn't really a larger market but really the the kind of minutia within that is um about half of the money that goes

into gaming is for mobile based games and uh two things have happened one Apple and Google have gotten rid of their idfa which is basically the identifier for advertisers which kind of negates a lot of the free-to-play business model concept and and so what we're seeing a lot of is the game developers who know how to build games they've been building them for decades they basically say hey blockchain isn't just like the next platform that could be kind of interesting it's like blockchain is actually the only thing that I think I can build a viable business on for my games and and the second thing that's happening is one to three percent of free to play Gamers actually monetize and make up that hundred billion dollars when you have the ability if you're just thinking about it from a player perspective when

you have the ability to instead of spending 999 19.99 or like 59.99 in a game for these virtual tokens that whenever you're done or bored with the game like poof that value goes away if instead you're describing that value and buying something that has a residual value in the form of an nft and you're buying it for ten dollars and maybe you're selling it for five or eight or twelve but that model probably means that the monetization threshold for what these games can expect goes up tenfold so from one to three percent maybe it's 10 to 20 and that's just a completely different business model for for how you look at gaming and you know the the there's been a lot of stuff to your point that's come out axi uh you know zedron a lot of that stuff is basically

just like random number generator attached to a UI and like speculative token economics I'd say they're exactly zero sustainable token model games that have launched so far that have you know residual playing value but in the next 12 months I think we're going to hit that Candy Crush moment where it's like okay we see the model it's working it's scaling let's go yep so just a couple other stats there were 55 billion mobile game downloads last year seven per person that's that's crazy uh Fourteen and a half billion dollars were spent on uh mobile game user acquisition in 2021 that's half of all mobile acquisition costs for users in general so like this is the biggest

industry on the planet it has the most money coursing through it that's all great um everything that Michael said is true like these games are coming they're building why does it seem so quiet I think one of the harder things that scripted people are going to have at time wrestling with is that uh potentially this doesn't involve us as much as something like defy did like D5 felt great because like we were stuffing money in liquidity pools and like we were swapping it and like you know things happening and like the nft mints were crazy all of that stuff I think at least will be 10 times larger next cycle it'll be you know that much more interesting nfts are gonna pop off again like I'm I'm sold on that on the gaming stuff like unfortunately it just won't involve as many people you know like

from the crypto Twitter audience that at least they don't need us it'll involve a hundred times more people but like no not as many of them are going to be the crypto Twitter set and so like I like my instinct is that crypto Twitter's gonna disparage most of these games it's a shitty game with like you know some token or the nfts suck or like you know there's no way for us to use it all of this indicative is like it's not about you like it's not about crypto Twitter anymore like and that's the point of all crypto like we're slowly onboarding more people and it used to be about Bitcoin and then the bitcoiners couldn't get into ethereum and they were salty about that and then the ethereum people couldn't get into the multi-chain world and they're assaulty about that like we're just gonna do this with ever increasingly

larger audiences but unfortunately it's just gonna involve less of the the people that are kind of in the industry today I I think everyone's I so I think maybe that could be the start of where this like reception of all boats though like that's the that's the case it's like we're gonna make this thing like so much bigger and so much cooler and have so much more economic value but like it's not going to be stuff I've actually had an emotional reaction sometimes to seeing the web 2 companies come into crypto like Disney doing like polygon or like the Starbucks thing or like I'm in the this well actually nevermind I won't talk about that but um I'm like I'm like that's that's like that's a load of fluff like there's nothing there like they're not doing anything and uh and but but I'm like but

I should be rooting for it but I'm having this like emotional I'm like and that's the the reaction that folks are gonna have when these games starts so history history suggests that you are absolutely right and that this stuff is never gonna go anywhere it's vaporware it's just for PR it's like some BD guy who met with some other B guy and that's like let's do a deal and and that's it and and never comes your fruition I I think imagine a world where you know you have one of the hardest things to crack into is the App Store the second hardest thing to crack into is getting them to support you from a payments perspective there's been talk in the last couple of weeks that Apple has come out and and they've been talking to developers about being okay using in-app purchase within within iOS to purchase nfts within app

like that Concept in and of itself is probably one of the biggest pieces of news that is maybe underreported I we we turn it really seriously but what that suggests is a user experience where you're playing a game an app you've downloaded it you've never touched a blockchain before you don't even have a coinbase app you don't buy an nft and it's just all seamlessly right there it scans your face you use your thumb and like boom you just spent 49.99 to get this nft maybe you never even know that it's on a chain or like you never pull it off the ecosystem but but maybe one of your friends is like hey did you know that that's an nft and like you can actually sell it and maybe the nft goes up in value and and for instance you bought it for 50 maybe you sell it for

60 or 70 or or maybe it's like hey I'm done with this game it's like oh you should like pull that nft out and like go sell it you know at a 50 discount and re-tube half of the value like that type of an experience is where you get someone who's absolutely non-crypto into crypto and actually using it because there's a financial reason to do so you just Trojan Horse them with iip like that I think is a really really huge onboarding experience that you know that's what that's what Robert and standing are referring to foreign let's get it so our who's uh what what L1 is winning the gaming oh the game all these gaming companies no clear winner like we we uh start a super portfolio company kind of tells us like you know where are people building it seems like

a pretty evenly hooded race at the moment between polygon Solana immutable X um yeah like I would say those are kind of the four the ones that we don't see are like the app chains like game developers are just trying to figure out how to build stuff on chain like you talk to them about like having their own token running their own ballot they're like like no no no no no no yeah absolutely not and so like you know do we think that they're going to want their own app chains eventually probably the biggest ones um I would also say like things like board ape Yacht Club uh and like how big and how impressive they are like they weren't even able to do this so like it's harder than you think um but yeah it seems like kind of

they're all fighting it out Avalanche as well is another one um yeah kind of the ones with the best BD are the ones that are that seem to be kind of like winning I don't know if any of them are the long term games yeah it's possible we still haven't seen that long-term gaming winner I would say probable that we haven't seen that yeah probably yeah that's fair uh Vance how's the atom 2.0 research it's good it's good uh you've talked to our analyst yet didn't talk to the analyst did all the research myself not uh not some Boomer who gets somebody else read the white paper for me I think it's it's super interesting um like I think I came away from my Cosmos research like super bullish on

tendermint less bullish on Adam um effectively what the value prop for atom is is that um number one uh there's this concept of like uh shared security or being able to rent security from kind of like uh atom stakers and you know if you're trying to bootstrap your own chain like just renting security from Adam is like a pretty easy way to start um I think that's interesting like you have to pay for uh you know the security with your own native token which kind of like makes it seem a little bit akin to like polka dot in many ways where you have to like rent a parachain slot like can people say that these things are completely different I think they're

probably more similar than many would care to admit but um you know that is um interesting proposition where like everyone's exchanging their own native token Adam becomes kind of like this index bet on all the products that are happening within the ecosystem I don't know how much that reflects like where the ecosystem is going today like back in the day like you know a year ago two years ago I think like this would have been like you know great fertile ground for like D5 projects like frog nation and like you know the really like dgn populist ones to like start on uh I see less of those projects in the future I also see the the case for like a defy app chain less clearly than ever before um and so I think it's going to be games

that kind of like use tendermint as like their app chain basis but like you know these are like big game studios they're not just like giving away tokens to people and it's like egalitarian crypto Funk future like they're business people they're gonna go rent security from somebody cheaper and not for like three or four percent of their token Supply um I think also the kind of bear chain with with uh bear case with things like Cosmos is that you know for games the most likely candidate for an app chain like there's not a ton of like cross-chain stuff that happens almost definitionally like you're not gonna be able to take a sword from one game and put it into like the farming game in another like it's like these games are Divine designed very specifically to have a very specific balance like and so like you know there's not gonna be a ton

of like cross-chain interaction with the games that have their own app chain and I think that's pretty bearish for like atom value accrual uh so yeah I mean like I think what they're doing is really cool and it's gonna work on some level I just wonder like long term like what is the actual constituent set of people that are gonna both build on tendermen and rent their security from you know atom holders and and how much cross chain stuff happens too unclear good good take Michael what do you think I I'm totally agree and you know I didn't do as much research as Vance did into Adam 2.0 so I I kind of got the digest from him um but we divide and conquer um

the the stuff that I think about is like what is the open source level it's kind of like a AWS versus um Linux and um one of the things that we've been thinking about as well is like is there a business model to be like basically like app chain as a service and uh if you do want to spin up you know an app chain whether it's for a game or a D5 protocol or something totally different like there's a lot of stuff that is involved in that and tendermen is somewhat akin to Linux in this example but but that still makes the question of like who's AWS and who's going to be able to help you like bootstrap the first 21 validator nodes who's gonna be the one that can help with like user

provisioning managing The Ether standard equivalent you know building having off-the-shelf tooling that's just going to help you you run your your system um and so I think that's kind of a narrative that's popping up with this app chain thesis as well um like there's going to be ancillary businesses that that come about um because of this yeah do you guys disagree on anything yeah awesome um should Vance get a haircut or not have you G minor last year I had like like kind of like shoulder length hair and he had like stop and now like now it's locked yeah oh damn you do got the lettuce Michael

yeah he's he's good I took it I tuck it when it's when it's camera time [Laughter] uh what do you guys disagree on uh uh some of the speculative nature of crypto I think we disagree on um like Michael thinks like uh I would say like a lot of the D5 speculative super d-gen stuff like won't come back I think it'll come back and like basically the exact same format and just be much larger um I think that's one like what's one is like like yam from 2020 or something like that I don't think that's coming back like but like do I think someone's gonna launch like Shiba Inu coin too and like everyone's gonna speculate on you

swap on it like I I see that happening again um I see like the nft crazy mints coming back as well like you know like speculation is part of blockchains because blockchains are built for Value transfer and programmability and like you combine those things together like you can create like a bunch of like things that are like really interesting from a speculation perspective you can also create like Financial Napalm which just like torches people like kind of like in Mass well like that's just kind of part and parcel of what we do and so like I'm pretty bullish on like degenerate activity returning uh where I don't I don't think I think Michael is is more uh on the regulated kind of side regular perspective that like that's what's going to bring people back games were pretty aligned on nfts were

aligned on like we think pfps are you know Silly um but like I at least think they're going to come back and and be big I think you're probably more bearish on that um friendly what else what do you think Michael anything I think that that's it that's the correct breakdown I think the the perspective that I have on I think the biggest difference is like this dgen D5 permissionless D5 versus permission D5 essentially um I I think the value proposition of D5 is twofold the first is transparency and being able to see everything on chain like that that is a true innovation in terms of financial services the second is composability so building apps on top of each other leveraging different

protocols and but but I think you know reading the Tea Leaves of what's happened over the last six months with you know the the massive explosions that we've seen retail getting blown out uh there's gonna be lawsuits to follow don't Quan is on the Run um all the way to like the ofact tornado Tash sanctions and you know we didn't we haven't talked about it uh and it's nothing legitimate yet but like the oti Dao bzx uh stuff from the cftc like it's extremely and and as well as you know Micah uh all the different potential regulations that are in process right now within within the senate or the house um every single one of them basically says permissionless Defy is illegal and

in some way shape or form they basically try to stamp it out um do I think they're going to be successful likely no um you know is there in the current implementation of these different bills or regulations or changes it's not going to happen and you know the the cfdc stuff is just complaint it's not a ruling like but if this is the direction that everybody is leaning it's just it's not a question of if it's a question of when this stuff becomes real um and I mean we've talked about this kind of a little bit so far but on previous pods but the we haven't been able to move fast enough as an industry within D5 to get to the point improving true core value to Consumers

to have the type of stuff that just happened be washed under the under the rug and and I think there's going to be stuff that we as an industry are going to have to pay for that and and so I think you know being permissioned is probably the only way being kyc it is going to be the only way that you know the the stuff will continue to proliferate at the like 10x 100x scale from here do I think the existing D5 stuff is going to go away absolutely not it's gonna continue on you know you can't take the smart contracts down but I just don't think they're going to have as much attention um you know the narrative over the last 18 months of like the institutions are coming well now they're officially not coming or they're not coming to the ones that that we were thinking they would be

coming to they're they're going to be running towards the things that they know they have regulatory cover on and and that I think is going to drive a lot of activity um do I think retail flows there maybe um probably if there's enough liquidity um but yeah I mean it's just gonna be really interesting and a lot of this is driven it is driven by sort of like the the actions over the last six months my perspective is pretty strongly changed uh maker just went through with their 500 million dollar investment in treasuries and corporate bonds I think it was like 80 treasuries uh 20 corporate bonds I I think it was today uh it went through they went through with it do you guys think that is a good move because it like aligns them more with like it it almost makes it harder

to sanction them now because you're kind of hurting the traditional Capital market system if you're a regulator because there's now 100 million dollars in corporate bonds or does it is this a bad move because it makes them more like or less censorship resistant like what do you guys think of this move I think good move um number one they're probably gonna make a bunch of money on the bonds they bought I mean yeah I mean less from a neck well yeah actually I want to hear your whole story and also like the long-term roadmap is something that you have to keep in view where it's like roona stated like the goal is to get as much assets and profit into the protocol before it goes fully decentralized and kind of gets cut off and so like it seems like they're moving towards that direction I don't think maker governance

is one to declare like we're going in this direction and we're never turning away like I think you just kind of need to look more at what they do versus more of what they say um I also think it makes them more censorship resistant like cool uh you know you sanction the PSM we have like 800 million dollars of bonds somewhere that we can draw on in a worst case scenario um and so I see it's like better for resilience better for the long-term vision and getting to like more profit in the Dow uh and yeah I mean like you know when yields are higher like people are going to rush to export Capital outside of crypto when when it flips like it'll be importing um and this is kind of like exportation season at the moment yeah and I think your point you know is 100

right in that this does make them uh more you know permissioned public defy right this isn't they haven't implemented kyc and they haven't done all the things that you know regulars would probably love for them to do but this does put them more in the camp of like Hey we're willing to at least entertain this stuff and and maybe not to the same level that you expect but like we're getting creative yeah you guys have any memes of the week hot takes of the week tweets of the week let me see I got I got nothing oh there's some good ones I don't mean to pick on them but basically everything Tom and Gisele has been hilarious

I thought this one was pretty good anybody who's watched the uh the Dahmer Netflix special I mean incredibly disturbing and strange but uh there's this one scene before he uh kind of takes one of his victims where he like makes them watch this uh this movie The Exorcist and uh and Angela BTC switch that out for uh the Bitcoin 30k chart that was pretty good yeah I saw that this guy oh it's a it's a creepy TV show um yeah I got past one episode and I was like all right I can't watch this person kill anymore I mean I think uh side note if you look at all of the top podcasts and like a

lot of the top shows on like the streaming service True Crime and like serial killer actually yeah I mean it's all true crime it's all I was talking to um we're trying to like scale up our podcast Network right now and like really add more shows and stuff it was a true crime crypto podcast in there somewhere I know so I was I was talking I talked to like the head of podcasts at Vox at HBO at like bar stool at gimlet at Wonder like I talked to the head of podcast to like try to learn like what they're doing and they're like all of them they're like you want another Secret True Crime true true crime there is there is no other Secret in podcasts that you need to know True Crime bro just do 2021 just a true crime season of things that happened back then I think

uh I mean like the dokwon Interpol story is just nuts I was gonna say should we go I mean there's a there's like an investigative like eight part series podcast on like a dokon honestly I want to do the a podcast series on like big moments in history where it's like an eight part series on the like on the Block Wars like um like Bitcoin cash with Bitcoin it's like a deep dive into that then it's like a uh you know some like an eight-part series on like Mount gox then they're like like something I I think that'd be really interesting I think so the other it comes out I mean we're recording this on Thursday it comes out tomorrow yes that's what I was gonna say I'm hyped for that actually I was uh I was having dinner last night with uh one of

our friends who who used to um you know be one of the design leads at coinbase way back in the day uh and and he he said it's gonna be really funny it's basically a two hour produced by coinbase written by coinbase about coinbase with only twin based people in it yeah yeah I'm excited I'm I'm pumped I honestly think this was Brian Armstrong I think this is what could be more about Brian Armstrong than about coinbase and I think this is Brian Armstrong being like I'm [ __ ] pissed that people like do not like do not understand how hard my freaking job is is being in the ass to be a Bounder I want people to like understand this that's what that's what I got from the trailer this is gonna have more marketing pull than their Super Bowl ad I agree

I think it's a brilliant move and by the way every other exchange has been talking to filmmakers to do this uh behind the scenes and now they're going to look like they're copying coinbase exactly good job to coinbase for moving good Speed Run I think the the biggest uh the biggest thing of the last period of time is uh let's get a debrief on your on your wedding with the ring in the view oh oh you don't Oh you mean this uh I mean the wedding caused the caused a little mini bull run you know what it is I I was gonna say yeah the highlight of the wedding is uh we I mean we had a wild horror which was um uh which was uh very exciting and it got

so crazy that my friend was like in picking up the you know the chair and my parents were in the chairs and my mom my mom flew out of the chair forwards so there's a video of my parents like and then my mom flies forward and my friend catches her so that was like uh yeah that was a good here we go that's incredible yeah so yeah congratulations to the both of you yeah thank you sir I will actually just say I'm feeling more like refreshed and energized about work than in I have in a long time and I think that is just a shows that folks in crypto should probably take breaks more because I mean we were talking about this before the episode I doubt you guys have taken a break since you started framework Mike and I hadn't taken a vacation in three

and a half years I'm not sure Mike had ever taken a vacation I hadn't taken one in years um and this was like you know Mike's Mike's on vacation right now I I got married when I'm a honeymoon like and I'm just feeling really refreshed so I would say there's people should learn from that I love it there we go good message whenever you guys are like I'm not taking vacation but we uh we we yesterday we were joking uh Vance is gonna make our team uh I survived 2022 t-shirts nice yeah we'll take a break in 2023 maybe yeah exactly some and as well as good uh good episode again if you guys are listening to this on the Empire feed go subscribe to bell curve uh it's a good

show uh Michael advancer on it every single week so all right see you guys next week for another episode of bell curve foreign [Music]