🔴 Nebular Summit Paris Livestream - Nebular Stage

Transcript

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welcome to nebula summit uh thanks for being here this is really exciting um i'm super happy that everybody showed up the turnout for this event has been the enthusiasm around this event has been you know quite quite uh quite great to see uh all throughout the week here at ecc and uh i'm glad to be here amongst you know fellow cosmonauts um you know we started we started playing this event about two months ago and originally we wanted to do a meet-up of sorts but it turned out in something i think much much larger i hope you'll enjoy it my name is sebastian cuccio i'm the founder of interop ventures we're an early stage venture fund backing teams building protocols and primitives um on the interchange

and uh you know at earth we firmly believe that the interchange of the interchange vision and the cosmos vision of interoperable modular proof-of-stake blockchains and you know we feel that the ecosystem has the potential to become uh one of the primary open economic networks uh over the next couple years so i've been in the cosmos community for a couple years now and you know i've always been impressed with the people in the space and their desire to build really cool stuff and so i hope that's what we're going to be able to showcase here today um so we have a pack day for you today with two stages we're running a little bit late but we're gonna have two stages we'll have the main stage here or the nebular stage and

here you'll have back to back conversations and talks from uh builders and pioneers in the space talking about their vision for the future of the inner chain and the challenges that we need to overcome as a community uh your mc here on this stage will be yuri of the cosmo verse conference and friends ventures give him a round of applause and upstairs we'll have the builder stage and here you'll get to hear from some of the top developers and engineers in the space talking about the latest and greatest tech and your mc up there will be elnest obiti of kiln who's standing right back there

so i'd like to give a really heartfelt thanks to our sponsors for making this possible um so we have our galactic level sponsor evmos and fede will be giving his keynote presentation in in just a few minutes we have our super nova level sponsors inoma and neutron thank you so much guys for uh for being here and for being a part of this and we have our stellar level uh sponsors agorik and club thanks guys also for uh for helping um set this up [Applause] we also have two workshops going on today so down here on the ground floor right across the courtyard uh we've got um in the room called the apartment we

have celestia team uh hosting a workshop on deploying sovereign roll-ups on celestia uh it's being led by nader dabit who's a developer relations at celestia it starts this morning you know like take your time uh to head over there and they'll be starting a sort of mid-morning uh thanks to celestia for for sponsoring that workshop it's giving roman applause [Applause] and upstairs throughout the day in the showroom so if you go up this on the on the left side of the venue here on the showroom uh we have the validator commons workshop which is being organized by daniel wong of uh whose head of protocol is at stake fish and the goal here is to bring validators

together to establish best practices and norms around protocol governance um this workshop is mainly targeted to individuals and companies who run validators but it's open to the public if you like to participate and like listen to the debates that are being held during this workshop and thank you to the sponsors of this workshop chain flow assistant dell one and steak fish this conference also wouldn't be possible without the team who helped put it together um so you know we've been working on this like i said for about two two and a half months uh and um is where is he i think he's still getting stuff you'll

see raymond today given pattern on the back um for uh for for being uh you know the the person doing most of the heavy lifting getting this organized he's been leading operations for the event found this great venue got us the great food and the great atmosphere and the great ambiance that we'll have here throughout the day and managed to get everybody t-shirts on time as well i hope you like the t-shirts um also thanks to preet singh who couldn't be here uh but prieta is a designer who is the brain behind like our amazing branding uh which i absolutely love i'm so so in love with the branding all the cool swag he couldn't make it today but uh you know we're sending our our good vibes to him and uh if he's watching on a live stream uh hey preet

and also thanks to all the volunteers who are here uh helping you guys be comfortable directing you uh you know around the diff around the venue who are at the registration decks um so give a round of applause to our volunteers as well [Applause] and uh yeah i also want to thank my fiance mumta who who's here today taking pictures and who's been a great moral support throughout this whole thing and she came up with the name nebular so thanks all right bit of housekeeping uh we'll be serving lunch upstairs hopefully around one o'clock um you'll find refreshments there all day and you can check out some of the sponsors anoma and

evmos are also sitting up there and there'll be a rooftop cocktail after the conference um if you want to have lunch at aura feel free this is the restaurant here uh that is part of the venue you're free to have lunch there if you'd like we're also live streaming all day at nebula.paris live do send pictures and everything on on twitter using that nebular summit and if you need assistance throughout the day talk to anybody with a hat so let's kick this off fede please come to the stage oh

cool awesome um well thanks so much for being here excited to [Music] talk today about atmos and why we believe it's going to become the next frontier for evm development um so just a bit of context um it was great news uh last month when dydx announced that they were like migrating to cosmos because for the second time um for the sec for the second time like an application from ethereum migrating to the cosmos ecosystem but the first one um unfortunately didn't manage to overcome the

complexities of launching its own application specification so today i'm going to talk about how we can scale decentralized applications to live today on the evm ecosystem by deploying them into the customs ecosystem and allowing them to scale and mature into their own into their own application specific blockchain so how has it been working so far so all these applications because of the modularity and composibility of the evm allow them to just quickly go and deploy on different ecosystems and they're looking for mostly different metrics in order to choose which chain they're going to deploy next like for example traction liquidity tvl community and especially support from the core team

but the main limitation here is that these applications need to track and manage every single ecosystem they're deploying to so as there are even more evm based chains or even more layer ones they're going to have to deploy and manage every single integration so in our view this model is not going to be able to scale for a long time because as i mentioned before there's an ever-growing number of these chains we believe the opposite to a multichain strategy an interchange strategy one where you deploy once and you're able to interact with all the different chains in the ecosystem including evm and interchain ecosystem is going to be what makes

sense so in this case you will be able to deploy to evmos and then interoperate with evm compatible networks on cosmos sdk networks through ivc native interoperability and evm bridges this is what we call interchange composability the [Music] the functionality for these decentralized applications to scale beyond just the evm and being able to have seamless interoperability but again some of these decentralized applications in the past when they're trying to grow and mature fail to be the failed to do so like for example the case of aragon chain if you remember a few years ago and also compound chain in

the pocket ecosystem and they're not succeeding because of the high complexity of building sake-based chains there's like a high com technical knowledge on the cosmos and sdk inner workings sak modules uh and also tendermint core consensus you need to also bootstrap your community and your validator said and you also need all the integrations that are very resource consuming you need the core basic infrastructure the oracle services the indexers etc to just bootstrap your chain because now you don't have the money legacy that you're using ethereum where you can just go and deploy and then like from day one you get your application up and running

and of course all these business inter integration business developer efforts that are really necessary to get all these integrations so atmosphere is able to offer a unique opportunity for these smart contract and decentralized applications where you can find the programmability of the evm plus the sovereignty and interoperability of cosmos so that we can create a unique value proposition merging these two ecosystems into a single one so ethmos for the ones that are not familiar with us is a full interoperable fast finale evm channel cosmos that means it's ivc enabled that aims to create long-term incentive alignment between developers validators and also

end users fmos is introducing share security as a mechanism for these applications to go grow a scale and mature and eventually become sovereign using atmos by directly renting security from the atmos validator set and i'm going to go through each of the steps on why these scaling mechanisms for your application make sense and why it's unique so the first step is build undeploy on avmos so why would one application build on fmos if they're like a multitude of evm compatible chains and of course you can choose from a wide variety of layer ones

so atmos is as i mentioned before an ivc enabled evm that allows you have native interoperability and also compatibility with evm ecosystems also local first has a low cost for users you can discover new cases that weren't possible before in other evm chains and you can also as a project get revenues directly from the fees from your from your users that are interacting with your application um you'll be able to expand your user base beyond just the evm by talking directly with other cosmos projects and also the seamless user experience the the native interpretability on the evm programmability offers so

let's talk a bit more about like the atmos evm it's fully evm equivalent that means like you can just board over any smart contracts that leaves right now on ethereum or any other evm compatible chain but that's not all because we also offer ivc which is one of the main selling points of mmos you can have ivc transfers and as soon we're also adding ibc queries so you can benefit from talking to on using all the core infrastructure that will be deployed on mmos like oracle services indexers etc you'll be able to have contract calls as well so that non-evm chain like for example customs hub juno somalia etc can pack an ivc contract call directly on the ivc data

and interact with the smart contract on atmos we'll also offer interchange accounts and share security the atmos evm will also have custom contract pre-compile so you can we can also define like ivc pre-compiles staking on other custom functionality that is not available on other evm networks and of course we're adding additional functionality like tendermint avci plus plus which will offer us better performance and better integration on native liquid staking directly implementing or implemented on the protocol you can also explore new use cases by deploying on fmos so for example somalia which is a

non-evm chain and offers a co-processor directly to ethereum currently works with gravity bridge but by talking directly to avid that will be deployed on fmos they'll be able to offer their users a mechanism with lower latency and lower transaction fees so that they can serve their users in a better way here you can see an example how their codes module for their obvious sellers can work directly by using ivc and packing the contract data directly be ivc and talk to these smart contracts fmos will allow all these use cases for all these essentials applications and of course interchange accounts you can completely

forget about the user experience of switching the networks on metamask on kepler which is completely detrimental for the end user experience especially from someone coming from the webster as a user you should only care where you about your portfolio the tokens that you have and not where those tokens are at the moment so no matter what recipient address you have interchange accounts will be able to quickly route the tokens based on the topology of the network so you can like send a transaction uh based on the um fastest route so lower latency or lower fees this is able to create a massive ux improvements because now you could you

can create uh smart wallets and this is going to be able on fmos so that you can interact native with other chains via ibc and also with the atmos evm we also offer developer incentives as a mechanism to create alignment between all the different users now with fmos every time that as a user you interact with a smart contract you'll be directly creating funding to the smart contract application so and this completely shifts the paradigm of how these applications get funding in the first place so you can deploy on day one use a core infrastructure deployment atmos and get funding with liquid fmos tokens with 50 of the transaction fees directly

streamlined to your project's wallet we you will be also able to expand your user base as i mentioned before we have uh native interoperability and now you can benefit from um ivc tokens represented as erc20 and vice versa so for example here you can see a use case from diffusion is one amm on fmos that is able to offer pools with osmosis represented as an erc20 and usbc bridge from um from ethereum so you can get additional liquidity from all these different uh cosmos chains and so here we're also trying to ease

the user experience by um displaying ivc tokens erc20s and in all the different formats so you can just go and transfer them to easy user experience from these two uh cosmos and ethereum ecosystems and of course seamless user experience now you can use ibc transfers and all all the interoperability functionalities um directly on atmos so that you can send all your tokens using ibc transfer signing with metamask which is erc2721 a standard that we're using for creating compatibility between the these two different signing formats and we also sped up the block time to two seconds to increase the on um increase

the user experience so now what about the traction now you decided to deploy an atmos what's next how do you get traction so we are launching the first ever dopp store as a mechanism uh to create more engagement additional discoverability and curated content for all the all the applications that we'll deploy on atmos the dopp store is a decentralized marketplace for developers and users where users will be able to go and see all the default applications core infrastructure validators applications in the interchange connected to fmos so that you can like benefit from these additional tools to create a better user experience especially from users coming from the

web2 ecosystem because that's the way right now that they're used to interacting with applications you can also have user incentives so besides this 50 transaction fee that you get uh from every interaction with their decentralized applications your users at the same time will be able to get um liquid fmos tokens as part of a completely decentralized mechanism for creating incentives we're allocating 25 percent of the newly minted atmos tokens so that they can we can incentivize additional usage for smart contracts that have been approved via governance we have created a token model that is able to completely align every single user so that you can create more growth

and more tvl by having a mixture between like the usage incentives but also the developer incentives that you created so that drives more tvl and more usage so that we can create like a flywheel of economic incentive alignment between all the different users and now scale what happens when you reach maturity in the same way that dydx reach maturity on ethereum networks and now you want to deploy into your own sovereign chain and this is the main core value proposition that we're trying to sell so and this is often an understated problem which is the business development problem of layer ones

so scaling on deploying a new l1 is mostly a business development problem rather than a technology problem because you need to get the basic integrations you need to get the explorer you need to get a wallet of course you need to reach out to all the validators and relayers and of and if you're deploying a smart contract compatible chain you also need the oracle services the indexers the rpc providers the bridges off-ramps etc and here liam and our team has been leading all that effort so how do you as a new chain that has been deploying are still able to grow and scale without having to duplicate any efforts in business development and this is

also relevant to the concept that we call evm specific chains like the same way that dydx grew by deploying into ethereum and then into cosmos we're often offering a mechanism for these decentralized applications to first deploy anatomas and then grow into their own opt chain that is specific to their eva to their use case but they can also now maintain evm equivalents and still interoperate with atmos the atmos infrastructure the ems applications and services and other chains in the ecosystem atmos will become the main infrastructure hub where all the services and infrastructure core

infrastructure like block explorers oracle services indexers rpc providers etc will be natively implemented on fmos a new chains spinning out from the atmos evm into their own sovereign chain will still be able to use these through native interoperability so here's how it's going to look like you as an application create a governance proposal on the fmos chains to spin out on rent security directly from fmos and so once that gets approved you will be creating half of an ivc connection alongside with a genesis state with your

with your smart contracts including the code the storage and the state as well as the accounts and balances but and here's the main problem that i mentioned before you don't have any of the basic integrations you don't have any as a new chain you don't have any infrastructure so how do you allow these new fluorescent ecosystem of applications to grow on this new chain with native interoperability um that means evm to evm interoperability on non-evm to evm interoperability we will allow all these new chains to directly talk to the infrastructure that is deployed in mmos

so they from day one they can still use the main applications on services that atmos will provide us the infrastructure hub for the evm ecosystem on cosmos and to be able to offer all these services we'll be creating tools for user acquisition remember like the hard spoon concept where you took like all this data and hard spoon it into your own um into etherman back in the days we're adopting the same mechanism but for new chains in the um fms ecosystem we'll be also offering um airdrop mechanics ui so that you can replicate our same air job but

for your own specific chain and this is also going to be available for other chains in the on the cosmos ecosystem so that you for example can select uh the staking eligibility the liquidity provisional eligibility as well as selecting smart contracts on the fmos chain according to gas gasoline meter filters that you define so that you can create your own air job exporting it to a csv and just go with one click and we believe that this is also going to be hugely beneficial for the entire ecosystem as we see a fluorescent ecosystem of evm compatible chains on the cosmos ecosystem that is able to talk

and interoperate directly creating true interchange composability and also more utility for the entire network thank you very much [Applause] any any questions um was atmos um funded by the cosmos hub okay

um are you guys planning and then my second question would be is evmos planning on using interchange security from the cosmos hub no we are offering our own interchange security to other um chains in the ecosystem especially evm chains so i guess my third question would be if the cosmos hub actually funded the fmos development why wouldn't you guys be using the security from the hub because we are offering a unique valuable position where these new chains will be directly using core infrastructure from from the atmos chain um our alignment with the cosmos hub has been mainly in the form of the airdrop and we're also upstreaming a lot of the work that we've been doing directly to the cosmos sdk um

so we've been core contributors of cosmos for a long time yeah and we keep maintaining like core infrastructure that benefits not only atmos but other chains in the ecosystem like the cosmos hub on any other chain that uses the cosmos sdk okay yeah i just think it'd be wise if someone funded your development to like use the security from that okay um we like our value proposition is offering these infrastructure on services blowing up most two other chains in the ecosystem any more questions

one round of applause [Applause] so this was a very good start i would say and now we will have a panel together with branger from composable finance agnew de la barrie from nomad peter kim from polymer and raoul saythoram from connext about

building bridges in the interchain and beyond and besides we will also have a keynote upstairs on the builder bridge at the builder stage about ibc hold by susanna evans so you can check this one out as well susanna evans um but yeah now peter kim brain jar brain jar is two minutes late yeah so just get started without him and he'll join you in a second thank you it's a real name

i guess we're not interesting enough i mean it's pretty you know early um in case you wonder we are still waiting for the last panelist so you should be there any minute did he bring his security first yes

did he bring his security first oh last time last night was that rockaway as well yeah he's always he's always he's not fully enough yeah last time in austin it's actually not a bad idea walking around chilling with in dangerous areas

are you guys going to um colombia i'm thinking i'm probably maybe you should yeah we don't unbiased party over here a lot of people are afraid so i hope my dog gets accepted nice to meet you so

we are complete thanks for joining us brinjar um so this this panel's topic is about building bridges in the interchain and beyond and before we dive deeper into the conversation i just want to announce my awesome guest on this on this panel today so again on my left i have ranger from composable finance then of course arunu de la you're from nomads but then raul says ram from co next and of course peter kim from polymer so and

um before we dive deeper it would be super cool if you all could give us a brief introduction um about your project so maybe you want to start ranger sure so um composable is focused on essentially creating a orchestration layer for crawling applications by tapping into trustless bridges such as ibc to create higher order logic for applications that are intended to become kind of blockchain agnostic but first and foremost focused on uh sort of multi-functional in use um hello everyone uh nomad is a generalized um

protocol for passing arbitrary data between uh between change or domains and it falls to the optimistic family of designs um which makes it uh very lean and very uh simple and elegant yeah hi everyone my name is rahul i'm one of the co-founders of connext so connext is basically a decentralized liquidity layer uh we've built a couple different versions of cross chain bridges in the past uh built on state channels atomic swaps and our most recent upgrade is going to be built on top of nomad so using nomad as the low-level message passing interface and we handle all the liquidity uh as well as kind of like a interface for passing

uh messages across chains hello everyone my name is peter kim i'm a co-founder for polymer labs and at polymer we're building multi-chain infrastructure uh specifically by scaling ibc to all other chains nice and now as we are like deeper into the bridging topic now i just want to reflect on the past of bridging in the early days so in a nutshell bridging in the early days was slow centralized and insecure i remember when i first used the bridge between ecsta and ethereum it took like almost a day to bring my assets to another chain um so could we elaborate on this for a second so why was it so complicated to bridge your assets from one chain to

another just after the d5 summer hype of 2020 maybe you want to start about product i mean yeah so i think first of all like we've we all sort of understand now that validator-based bridges need a lot of additional like security guarantees on top if we're going to actually trust them um they should probably also have economic security associated with them um most validator-based bridges at the moment do not have that so there's just operating knowing that the risks that's your could get wrecked is like one piece and you think that you'd also have a solid user experience um with those risks in mind but the user

experience is also so i think um we still have a lot to go for for bridging i do think that like yeah some of the new interfaces for bridging nomad and connects have really provided a solid um ux for allowing someone to move from one chain to the next but also of course um the model that for instance nomad has there is delays associated with that but of course that's like ensuring security um so i think that at the end of the day we're going to have to make some sort of um compromise whether it's ux whether it's

speed whether it's security and hopefully more bridges can basically sit in the middle and that's obviously why we're so fascinated and excited by ibc so i think over time we will see kind of not only applications providing better user experiences for these bridges but also the bridges themselves hopefully will evolve to like compromise across this like trilemma which that's the real trilemma in my opinion we always have trill ms in in crypto right um but you mentioned ibc and it's actually pretty interesting because for me it feels like ibc is super old but it's just one and a half years old since it was shipped um kim you guys are working on ibc

and it unleashes really the true power of the cosmos ecosystem because i can use everything so smoothly without interacting with a bridge so could you elaborate maybe a little bit more on the power the true power that ibc brings to us yeah definitely i think you know to your point about the history of bridging um you know when you think about it starting in 2017 is when there were all these icos for like thor chain or ren which were what i call interoperability 1.0 for bridging um cosmos ibc being a year and a half i think there's been um it's really the most battle tested solution out there for bridging but right now it only exists within cosmos

you know that's why we're so excited about our partnership with composable building ibc integrations with polkadot to enable substrate-based interoperability with other chains and also recently composable had their uh proposal passed with near foundation as well but ultimately we think after surveying the interoperability landscape ibc is the most advanced most community driven open source solution and we think that that's very important to make sure that there's security when you look at the past like three years the most i think the most pressing issue in the entire blockchain industry is bridging like it's over i think two billion dollars in a lost user funds whether

it's poly network or thor chain or um ronin yeah axia all these different bridges have been drained like wormhole as well yeah yeah speaking um about that i mean if you just followed rekt news most of these news were always about bridges i think like the chances that you were able to spot a bridging hack there was um yeah was very very high so maybe if you could elaborate a little bit more how you are preventing these risks at normal i think that would be interesting to know um so most of these bridges are in essence multisigs so there is a consortium of people that you trust that

they will always do the message passing as they should um so if you send 10 usdc on one end you will have 10 whatever usdc on the other the problem is that if they they have super power like they have root access they have pseudo to the network so if they get hugged um then your funds are stolen right so in uh nomad as an optimistic system even if the validator like this uh special person in the system gets hacked it's impossible to to have this kind of of frauds and the reason is because you have a watcher as we call it which is a an agent of the system that looks over

and if it says fraud it will freeze the system basically and that's why you have the lag as uh you mentioned is because we have to wait to see was the fraud or that messages correct um in essence in instead of trusting a set of people the system tells you like you should trust these validators we move the power to the user and we allow the user to trust a watcher so we will tell the user you will choose who to trust and if at least one honest player exists then the system is safe of course that has a lot of trade-offs like uh these bridges um they have a lot of good things for

example they have speed you know they are instant they are simple very easy to reason about so i don't want to to say that there is a silver bullet here it's all about traders yeah i agree with that and um what i find interesting is um like you mentioned this example that they are basically companies that are handling my funds to send my assets from one chain to another chain but we all also see kind of a shift now so you guys from connexio also building on top of bridges now so could you maybe talk a little bit about this i think you also work with earn moss so we see kind of all these puzzle pieces together in bridges itself become a playground in order to move capital between different chains so could you maybe dive deeper

here yeah totally so i think you know there's this concept of intra cluster communication which is where ibc sits right if you're like in in the middle of this ecosystem this cluster of chains then there are these native solutions for bridging which are the best possible solution right because ibc it's incredibly secure it's all light client verified it's basically like it solves this trilemma essentially but then when you get to these other types of zones like if you're going between a cosmos zone you're going to like ethereum roll-up or something like that then you don't have this kind of light client verification mechanism so you need to do something else and that's where you get to this sort of like an easy way of bridging which is the easiest way is uh use a multi-sig or the easiest way really is to use like a

centralized server but then people are decentralizing that a bit by saying it's a multi-sig then you're getting all these other trade-offs where you have to trust this group of people so you know we really sat down tried to figure out the best way to solve this problem there's one thing you can do which is an atomic swap which is what connects is currently based on but then with that the trade-off is that you don't have this kind of like generalized ability to smart contract calls and so that's when you get into these kinds of more clever systems like we found that nomad pretty much is like the best best solution for all these different trade-offs and that's where we sit with connex is we take our decentralized liquidity providers and we're going to plug into the best possible communication method between the chains that you want to bridge between

can i add that another solution for moving assets between chinese coinbase you could in essence like sx could be uh considered a bridge so to say yes but then of course there we have the um the trade-off that also coinbase highest kind of high fees and again it's super centralized so but yeah um theoretically i agree with that but yeah let's talk a little bit more about ibc because it seems like that ibc is an all-in-one solution you do not have this risk of centralization it's pretty smooth and i mean the icf worked very very hard on it and now we see that

ibc is being shipped to other ecosystems as well i think you know what i want to talk about now with nir we saw this governance proposal coming up everybody's excited um so maybe you can share some insights alpha with us yeah sure i mean so basically i mean i'm always going to conferences shilling ibc to other ecosystems so i sound like a broken record at this point but basically like i think for us the ibc is was architected with bringing it to other ecosystems from the beginning and if an ecosystem doesn't have like client verification available then it's like

eth2 will have this available solana does not have this available so you can sort of see like uh that some changes don't prioritize security other chains do prioritize security and so i do think that over time essentially most chains will be able to be connected via ibc and so our recent progress is when we keep going to these different ecosystems people initially get very um like weird obviously so within polka dot obviously xcm is like the preferred communication standard um and so when we started talking about ibc it makes people feel very uncomfortable but i think um

you know it really is just going to sh it's already like it's essentially the only interoperability standard that has processed as much volume um with the rate of transactions as it has had to date um and we know that it can also be sort of 10x more than what's what's currently happening now so when we go to people like near when we go to people like polka dot we sort of like have already a solid foundation to say look this is already working in production um here are the changes that we need your protocol to make to be able to integrate with this interoperability standard and that's that's where we sort of run into like a lot of technical conversations um sometimes these things get

pushed forth like the near stuff sometimes these things don't get pushed forth and we have to end up um resorting to like politics and other types of things um to to push things forward but overall i would say most people are pretty excited when we say we want to bring ibc to their ecosystem because they know that there's already a strong like tvl based community and um like it's been tested for over a year now so i think that's pretty valuable 100 and you touch based on something very very interesting like the wide adoption of ipc i mean for sure if you are launching your cosmos sdk chain you most of these chains have in mind

already that they want to enable ibc um but we also have lots of existing chains with lots of liquidity and i also remember a keynote help by zeki at avalanche summit explaining how to ship ibc to avalanche and now kim peter sorry we um we talked about this um before the conference started so i was talking to a friend from multichain and he um told me in a perfect world we would just have ibc so to say so what hinders us to bring ibc to every chain in the space so what are the challenges that we have to overcome generally speaking to bring ibc to as many chains as possible i think i think honestly it comes down

to technical overhead um you know rahul mentioned that there's this there's the categories of intra cluster versus uh inter cluster uh i think currently ibc is intro cluster but ibc is just a specification it's something that can be applied to all of their change which is our focus at polymer it could ultimately be inter-cluster um and to omar uh brainchild's point um yeah it's it's something that composable and polymer are both working to bring to all of their chains um this could you could you repeat the question i feel like yeah it's um what are the precise challenges oh yeah so yeah in terms of the technical

overhead with polymer we're basically integrating like clients of every other chain onto polymer and with what we're calling a roll-up relayer we're able to pass the data between our chain and the other chain so polymer is ultimately going to be this hub that connects cosmos and non-cosmos chains i mean i just wanted to add really quickly like i was on a panel at osmocon with sergey and he said for instance um connecting ibc to other ecosystems is really hard and yeah it's hard and i think it's hard because not only do you have to understand the ibc architecture and then fit it to a whole other ecosystem where

ibc was not intended for but also it's like very political like proposals need to be passed you need to speak to the right people you need to have basically like clients on both sides you have to have the relay infrastructure to do so so it's like a very like multi-party effort it would involve like a full hard fork of any network right yeah essentially and i think at this point is like again coming back to silver bullets like ibc has obviously some tradeoffs of complexity um it's expensive like if you can't implement the light client on ethereum you would have to go to a rollup so

yeah i think it's important to always keep in mind that it's a very complex protocol which is obviously the you know the end state but yeah how would you imagine this end state precisely and how far is it away from us um i'm not as deep into ibc so i wouldn't be able to say how the end state would look like or when i mean um ask an engineer for a timeline and then double it um but uh yeah i think obviously having light client verification uh it's instant is trustless etc but in essence i have

personally that's my personal like engineering personality that um i have a fear for very complex solutions and i think if things have shown like the past is that more simple things that may be more simplistic in some terms or uh 80 there usually um are more successful because blockchains are like intrinsically very complex systems we have a very complex distributed system in itself and then we're trying to do more complexity um yeah so it seems to me like the end state would be like every chain validates every other chain possible so that would mean like essentially the node overhead like multiplies or goes like m to the n

power or whatever so it just seems like that's going to be really hard especially on like something like ethereum which is kind of trying to prioritize extremely light validator nodes like i i don't really see how it would be possible to make ethereum like client or like ethereum light validator nodes that are running on like a raspberry pi validate literally every other blockchain in the universe so that seems to me like really run into kinds of issues i i tend to disagree i think that it wouldn't be every chain uh verifying transactions on every other chain it'd be more like a hub and spoke model where one chain like polymer chain will verify transactions on other chains and what we've been dedicating a lot of resources to is zk ibc research where we can

prove the like client verifications that polymer conducts and posts that information to other chains as well i think i think the end state ultimately is uh all chains connected by ibc ibc being the uh open source standard and i think the most important part about that is that when you look at all these other exploits that i had mentioned earlier with interoperability 1.0 is that they were all their own unique designs and implementations of bridges and you know hackers and exploiters they went through and found flaws in those but if it had been one open source standard and there was a larger community of white hats or just builders that looked at that and gave their own feedback and improved it together then there would likely have

been less exploits i i fully agree with the vision of course i also think that there is a world in which uh well we essentially want the future to be focused more around passing data securely as opposed to passing assets um and so i think it's also like important from the application layer for developers to actually understand you know let's let's actually start using cross chain stuff for something more complex than just like cross-chain indexes or uh just simple token transfers or just cross-chain nfts um you see a lot of these uh interesting new use cases sort of

being talked about but i think the like vision of like all of our cross chain projects of like what the use cases should be versus what's actually getting built it's like a huge gap and trying to actually bring people uh to this like level of understanding of like what does it mean to go across chain um what does it mean to have additional market efficiency because of going cross chain these things are like just barely scraping the surface so i think long term something like ibc is uh going to dominate the ecosystem because i just i for sure don't see a world in which validator-based bridges exist after like two to three years

but i think thereafter like there is definitely a role in which ibc essentially becomes the the sole kind of interoperability standard yeah and i totally agree with you also about this vision and i would also say that the aspect that you mentioned that we didn't scratch the surface is not in a so distant future actually we see mass protocol for example basically combining the best out of ave and ume by deploying their protocol in different chains but still having their own chain everything is connected with ibc and people can also take um take advantage of arbitrage opportunities let's say on juno while they spotted it on another chain so we slowly but steadily see the first puzzle

pieces coming together and this is also how we started this conversation ipc is not that old and we see so much progress already after one and a half years which is insane if you think about this we are a little bit behind schedule so i would you know take the first question so are there any questions from the audience thank you within the cosmos ecosystem there is xlr that is building cross-chain communication how this is integrated in the whole ecosystem is it different from ibc is it working with

ibc sorry for technical question to my knowledge it seems as though they have um for chains where there is an ibc they have essentially a validator-based bridge um and essentially where there is ibc they have a wrapper plus a bridge fee that's what it seems like to me maybe i'm wrong you know actually uh one of our earlier designs at polymer was similar to what axillar designed but i think what xlr i believe does use ibc but they also have their own what they call cgp cross chain gateway protocol we think that ultimately that adds user friction for developers if developers want to build and mult in multiple chains um

right now with what we're building they would just have to understand how ibc works with what axillar is building you would have to understand what ib how ibc works and also how cgp works and um to add on to the point i made earlier you know you're adding an extra layer of design and implementation that loses the network effects of um having multiple eyes on it for improved security yeah it's basically like a vendor lock-in type situation right so you have to build specifically for axler which is an issue versus a open protocol like ibc this is actually like one of the main reasons why we also decided to push ibc as well because it makes absolutely no sense to reinvent the wheel like just

thank you so um yeah um i think this was a very interesting uh discussion and a very important one um and yeah i hope that we see more and more network effects coming out of um ibc and yeah exo is actually also um a very good point here um so yeah this uh this was it um thank you so much for attending this panel i just see sunny entering um entering the room so you're the next speaker so you can immediately come here actually so big applause please for peter thank you thanks so much yuri thanks guys thank you

thanks man thank you sir thank you good stuff guys it was very good nice and i'm very interested in i was reading ibc all night i just i just set it up here

so um hope everybody's in the room i will now want to introduce you to the next speaker which is sunny agarwal co-founder of osmosis and he will talk about exploring the wild rest of osmosis mev a very hot topic at the moment thank you so much yes indeed mev very hot topic um so yeah i want to talk a little bit about exploring osmosis mev i was i kind of came up with this slide uh last night because i normally have like a prepared pitch deck which is like cosmos 101 exploring app chains and i realize that that's probably not what this audience wants right you know i feel everyone here already already believes in cosmos

so i was like okay what what's an interesting topic to talk about what's a relevant uh topic right now and so you know i think mev especially cross chain mev is really growing as a um you know a point of interest for a lot of people so you know very relevant today so i want to talk a little bit about how mev is growing in osmosis and how we are sort of planning on approaching it so what is mev first of all right so it stands for minor extractable value um realistically the term was created in uh in a bygone era back in like you know phil dyan he created the term uh back

when like everything was proof of work but really what what it really is is proposer extractable values right so you know obviously in all these cosmos chains we're all running proof of work but you know we're not using proof you know we're not using proof of work it's all proposer extractable value what is this like proposed extractable value though right what i define mev as is the ability what sort of powers do proposers have that they can single-handedly do to extract value and there's actually a number of different things that they can do right you can do things like um censoring other votes or you can do timestamp manipulation but

we're going to focus very um specifically on transaction related uh mev right so what are the powers that a proposer has when they're creating a block and when it comes to transactions and i think there's like three main ones that we have to consider there's they have the ability to read the transactions from the mempool they have the ability to choose which transactions come into the block and they have the ability to choose what the order of the transactions in the block are and that's what the order that they execute in and via these three powers they can kind of achieve a lot of interesting um you know extract a lot do a lot of

interesting value capture where uh you can do things like sandwich attacks front running generalized front running with you know dark force attacks if you've heard that term before which we'll get into in a bit but you can also do and these are things i would classify as bad mev right like you know this is very extractive of value from users but i would say there's also like good mev that exists right like the ability to do liquidations right this is good for protocol health right you want liquidations to be happening or you have cross-chain arbitrage happening you want the arbitrage to be happening because you know that's how you get your uh dex's prices in sync with external markets as well so you know we have this

interesting like you know and i guess they i've been a very like mev minimalist but i i've realized over time that there's actually there are some types of bad there's a lot of types of bad mav but it's also good mev that exists as well and so what we should be doing as um you know an ecosystem general is we should be trying to one minimize the bad mev but to internalize the good mev and so i'll get into so we're going to start with talking about how do we minimize bad mev and then we'll talk about how do we internalize good mev so what is bad mev sandwich attacks generalized front running

censorship you'll notice that a common trait around all of these types of bad mev is the ability to read transactions from the mempool and so if we can solve that we kind of actually end up eliminating most of the bad types of bad mev and so how do we do that well well before we get into that what you know i'll walk through some examples of how uh front running works so normal front running what what it is is alice will send her transaction to the block composer in this case it's sikka which is a very bad validator never delegate to them they're evil um the validator what they'll do is they'll add it to their mempool and what they'll do is

you know they can read all the transactions of the mempool and maybe alice uh is doing a trade or something right so what sticker would could do is they could insert their own transactions into the mempool and sort of put their transactions before alice's and basically you know what happens is you usually set a slippage bound when you're trading on a dex and what what what the uh a malicious validator could do via sandwiches deck is like you know make sure they take all the value from that uh from that trade um you also have these issues like generalized front running which is like you know also you know called a dark force attack because this blog post that dan robinson georges wrote uh but basically the idea is like imagine like

a toy example where there's a five dollars that goes to the first person that can show a solution to a puzzle you know it's not really a puzzle it's like some sort of arbitrage opportunity or something like that but what happened is alice you know you know she spends a lot of time finding the results to the answer and she can broadcast our transaction but the problem is that the validators could read the whatever submission she's uh whatever solution she submitted copy the exact solution and submit their own exact same exact transaction and they can make sure that their transaction gets in first and so they get to you know whether it do the liquidation or do the arbitrage

opportunity or whatever it is and steal that value from alice so you to solve this uh both of these situations there's a simple solution which is encrypted transactions you want to make sure that the validators can't read from the mempool and so what we actually do is we have a system where what we're going to do is all the transactions that are being submitted to the blockchain are encrypted they get sent to the validators and then all the and then what happens is uh we need a way for us to come to consent we create blocks of fully encrypted transactions and only once a block is finalized and the

inclusion in the block is finalized and the transaction ordering is finalized then we so oh sorry animations don't work on this i guess um but that's when we decrypt the transactions and then execute them so that way it's too late for anyone to front run it because we're creating blocks of you know no one can read the transactions what before the block is actually finalized so you know there's actually a couple of ways of achieving this system uh you know i guess there's three main ways uh that i'm aware of or there's a couple more but you know uh the other ones have like very far out cryptography needs so the three current ways of doing

this are trusted hardware which is you know the sgx system time lock encryption and threshold encryption and so you know we spent a lot of time sort of evaluating these three systems um you know when it comes to sgx systems i think sdx's are you know pretty cool uh i think you know secret network is doing cool stuff but like i don't think it actually solves uh it doesn't work for defy applications where you know every two or three years the sgx ends up getting broken um and if you really wanted to break the sgx how much would it cost you know you could probably hire a team of like 10 top-notch researchers pay them like you know

20 million dollars and you'll probably break the sgx in like six months right and the thing is mev is worth way more than 20 billion dollars on ethereum right now and so it's a economically rational thing to do to go break the sgx and you know today on sgx based systems you know mev might not be worth that much so it's not worth doing it but once it gets to the point that it is it people are going to end up breaking so breaking it so the the security budget of sgx based systems are just not that high so we'd rather rely on cryptographic systems rather than like these black box trusted hardware systems so then we're left with basically time lock encryption and threshold encryption

and i'm not going to go too too much in detail but time lock encryption is quite cool as well but the problem is that it has a lot of ux concerns basically all transactions get delayed you know you have to you know you make a transaction then it gets executed like a few minutes later which is like you know maybe not that bad but like i think the ux that we've come to expect is you want uh transactions to be executed you know as almost as soon as they're uh created so we're left with threshold encryption and how threshold encryption works is basically you know today in tendermint uh we have this bft system where two-thirds of validators have to submit transactions or submit votes on a on a block before it gets finalized so

how threshold encryption works is there the similar to threshold signatures if people are familiar with that where you know you have a quorum that says like hey uh these set of people can sign a transaction it's the same thing but with decrypting data so what will happen is all all users they create transactions that are encrypted to this uh shared key that all the validators have and then the proposer will create a block of of you know the block it has encrypted transactions in it and then as part of their votes validators will include their decryption shares and as soon as you have and and to make a valid vote on

a block you also have to have a valid decryption share and so as soon as you have two-thirds valid votes on a block you'll also have two-thirds decryption shares and that means you can decrypt the data and so uh as soon as a block is finalized that's when you also have enough decryption shares that you can decrypt and execute the transactions in a block meaning that uh decryption is fully atomic with block buttock with block production and there's not this like weird delay that you get with things like time lock encryption or out of protocol systems so yeah this you know basically what we do is like you know by making sure that no one can read

anything from the mempool we get rid of things like sandwich attacks generalized front running all this kind of stuff and we effectively for the most part i think minimize bad mev this bad mev is really a privacy failure right when you make when you want to make a transaction you expect like you know you have some sort of privacy until time of execution and today i feel like every single blockchain is basically a leaking leaking that information so with threshold encryption we solve this problem but what about the second part right this is the and you know i i feel like i've talked about the threshold encryption stuff a lot before but i guess the new part today is this internalizing good mev what does that mean

so you know anatoly had this like good tweet a couple of weeks ago where he said that like you know really the full value the value of l1 tokens is their ability to capture mev and the value they can extract by doing that and that you know this tweet actually stuck with me for a little bit i've been thinking about it for a while and then what i realized was it's like you know as an app developer why are you leaking that value to an l1 token when instead that full pro value could be captured as part of your you know i mean this is part of the pitch of app change i guess which is like you know you should be capturing that value as part of your protocol and distributing that value to your apps token holders right so how can

we take that mev that is inevitable the good mev in osmosis and give it to osmo token holders so there's a couple of ways of doing this right so what are the types of good mev you know we have things like liquidations on-chain arbitrage opportunities and there's all sorts of like sort of things you can do so let's start like internalizing them so step one you know let's build an on-chain liquidator so i i guess one thing to note is that you know there's quite a bit of mev in osmosis today with just the trading but it's going to get more and more over time right like we're we are moving away from you know we're moving from the amm model towards order book systems right like that's definitely a plan you know

you're going to see order books on osmosis within three months um and once we have that we're going to have way more mev opportunities or you know once mars launches on top of osmosis you're going to have like a lot of liquidation opportunities so the amount of mev on osmosis is inevitably going to go up so how do we deal with this so you know you can build things like on-chain liquidators so if anyone's familiar with liquidity on ethereum they have this like on-chain stability pool that gets like first access priority to liquidations and so you know they end up instead of get you know things like maker and compound they end up leaking a lot of value to the off chain liquidators and like giving

giving that value to them when instead that that value can be internalized to the protocol uh you can you know because we have these cool app chains and stuff you can actually have these liquidations happen automatically in the protocol in the begin blocker you can you know make a bunch of very easy checks and say hey you know we're gonna check to see if these things are liquidate can be liquidated and you know you can do them and this is good for protocol health because you know you want you want to get rid of bad debt quickly but also you know it's it's protocol revenue for for the protocol you know this the full value of liquidation instead of giving it to you know whoever's triggering it it can go all to stakers for example

um the same thing with the pro on chain protocol arbor so you know when people in osmosis there's a lot of like you know pools and you can route through different ways and what inevitably happens is like pools become out of sync and what's happening today is people are submitting you know arbitrages where they you know they want to be the first one to sort of you know you can do these circular arbs where you can like you know trade on pool a b and c and like you go through the same thing and you can get some profit from that well what we could be doing is in the begin blocker of osmosis we should be running a basic arbitrage protocol you know the problem is that like solving these like arbitrage opportunities is actually like

an np hard problem so you're not gonna get all of the profit but you know even if we can get like 50 75 using some basic system basic tools you know that should be protocol of revenue that could be going to all osmosis stakers right so you know that i think that's it that's another source of protocol revenue in the in the long term and then finally you know like you mentioned you know there's some there's things that you can be like application specific that we understand things like liquidations and on-chain arbitrage but there's things that we just won't understand you know there's mav opportunities that people are going to be discovering all the time and so how do we capture you know the tail end of the i think like through things like

on-chain liquidators and on-chain arbors we're gonna get most of the mev and internalize it into the protocol but eventually there's gonna be you know there's this tail end of things that we you know might not be able to understand and so you know how do we capture internalize that basically you know okay so how is this done today is you have systems like flashbots which are these off-chain transaction prioritization systems uh and what happens is searchers you know people who are finding mev opportunities they submit these what they call bundles which um are like uh sets of transactions to a centralized system like flashbots and what they do is they basically simulate the

transactions and say like hey if this um you're basically bidding for the first slot in the block and what it's doing is there's really two auctions that are going on inside uh blockchain today for uh blocks where you there's one auction which is you know you just want to be included in a block here just make you know let's say you're making a payment you don't care where in the block it's happening and then the other is people are competing to be like the sort of the first spot in a block you know they want to be the first ones to pull off the liquidations or arbitrage opportunities and you have these like off-chain systems like flashbots which are like exploiting this like discrepancy and saying that like hey you know here's a centralized system where you can bid for

the first slot in a block without like you know messing up the auction for the rest of it but what we realized is you know you can actually build all of this on chain so you can do these full like on-chain transaction prioritization systems in protocol so what we can do with especially post-threshold encryption we can say that hey transactions can like make bids to they want to be the first to execute in a block they want that first slot and so they you know what we're going to see is transactions are bidding to be like the you know pull off these arbitrage opportunities and all the revenue from those bids can actually go to all stakers you know with these off-chain systems you have

situations where that you know all transactions are going through these like very centralized mempools um and you know the value is going to validators when really what we want is this to be internalized as protocol revenue to all osmo stakers and by building these systems in chain rather than allow relying on these like off-chain um centralized services we can we can internalize that protocol revenue and so you know we see that we actually have a rise of like more of these off-chain systems uh in you know in ethereum and stuff they definitely have taken a big rise they're starting to show up in cosmos as well

and my general take is that you know we should be trying to avoid them um i i think functionally they are effectively validator cartels uh you know if you look at things like threshold encryption it's only it's not safe against a two-thirds collusion of validity right so threshold encryption it works by two-thirds of validators sort of you you require two thirds of validators to decrypt data before it's done before the transactions are created and the i i'm just slightly worried that these things are like these um systems like flashbots are like a foot in the door towards validator cartels and you know what happens when these systems

decide like hey it's pro revenue maximizing to bypass threshold encryption because it will you know increase revenue for these systems so that's something we're a little bit worried about it's something we've really started thinking about in the last few days and let's like what do we do about this and this is kind of like you know a question just i want wanted to kind of open the discussion up for people you know hopefully this will like raise you know interesting discussions throughout the rest of the day but like what do we do about these validator cartel systems um i think there's different things you know different levels you know i think one is like you know just in the protocol we can do things to make sure that like they're not as effective you know build

the on-chain prioritization systems the on-chain in protocol prioritization systems will always sort of win out against the off-chain ones but like other things we can do otherwise you know dev for example he's like he wants to build like slashing conditions for like if people are caught using these like uh you know these off-chain validator cartel systems he wants to like start like slashing validators you know i'm just interested to hear from people of like what are ideas of what we can do about these validator cartel systems so yeah that's it thank you [Applause] thank you sunny we have one we have time for one question

thank you thank you sunny for the great presentation it will be hard for me to follow on with mine um i do have a question actually i think it's a great thing to think about how do you create value for osmos takers and you know the participants of the osmo ecosystem but my fear if you integrate the arbitrage directly in the protocol maybe you won't be able to attract professional market makers that also provide liquidity in this kind of systems so you kind of take away parts of the revenue that they would generate obviously to protect the ecosystem but at the same time maybe it's also a trade-off

to leave those professional arbitragers that come build the whole tech to connect to your system and then also provide liquidity maybe lp and also you know like just benefit uh and provide also value to the ecosystem what do you think about like this potential like double edged sword yeah for sure you know i think i feel like the mev game has been one of the best like marketing systems and just like you know it actually has brought in a lot of talent like the number of people who i know who started with like mev uh searchers and stuff and then ended up

building like in you know getting bored of that and started actually building interesting protocols instead and like doing you know real value-add stuff has quite quite a few people have done that so i think that's a valid point um but i do think that like you know when it comes to like market making and stuff i think like the arbors are a pretty different class of users than market makers right and so the people who i don't think like reducing arb profit and internalizing that into the protocol will actually reduce the number of market makers necessarily and also what ends up happening you know the way to if you want to realize that profit of that you know from those are opportunities you know by internalizing into the

protocol it brings up value to osmo stakers and this is kind of why uh incentive systems are so important and why we you know make sure that osmo is like you know majority distributed to lps and market makers so it kind of aligns those incentives in that way by making sure the market makers and stuff you know the best way for them to realize that the arb opportunities in mev profit from their market making activity is by uh owning osmo big applause for sonny please so radar you just introduced yourself already

so radar will now hold a keynote about from d5 to brandfi yeah if you want to have q and a's and you have to stop there and if i hold it will be a quite short presentation so how how do i this one this one yeah

um i think 10 to 15 minutes so how do you how do you go full screen on this oh yeah ah so if i like just do that yeah no it's not oh you need to open it i'm not with google docs

maybe you need to download it yes maybe we call guys we can't see the presentation we should put it full screen i think how

do you put it full screen here is it with this way i don't know it was yeah it was like that and then up i think you just need to put it yeah presently here like that yeah no perfect hi everyone well thank you for coming it's always hard to follow just after sunny uh it will be a quite a straightforward presentation about um

what i think is kind of wrong in the defy world and how we can fix it um so i'm reda i'm the founder of the key foundation the key foundation is about building bridges bridges between traditional finance and decentralized finance bridges between actual real-life businesses and defy the first product that the key foundation has delivered is club it's a neo-private bank that offers investment opportunities uh to people that belong to that club and it was the first utility of the key token of the keychain but we're not here to talk about club we're here to talk

about defy so who here in this screen knows what this is yeah don't be shy yeah that's for people that know what this is it comes actually from us moses do you see what does this represent i think that this represents what is completely wrong about defy you have a curve that goes to the sky and then it just crashes down this is defy it builds value on top of hopes and expectations leverage and a lot a lot of trading and collaterals and personally i think that this is

wrong and this is like the accurate version of what defy is this i actual defy traders building leverage which is some kind of scaffolding and they use the below stage to build the next stage and this is how the fake value is actually being built in so it's cool because a lot of people are able to extract value before the others but at the end of the day it's kind of like depressing to live through those bull and bear cycle and like be very very happy and end up completely wrecked my vision of crypto assets my vision of defy i think that

for the last 40 to 50 years we have kind of reached the limits of capitalism and we've been by capitalism and crypto blockchain has been created to fix that in my opinion crypto assets it's the best tool to build something new to build what i call stakeholder capitalism crypto assets are the vector that connect a project a vision a mission with its community of stakeholders and the community of stakeholders are numerous you have the investors you have the users you have the funders you have

the teams you have all kind of actors that actually participate to that and the asset gets the value from the activity and the value that is generated in the ecosystem so a lot of assets have been created like uni token curve token like all of those ecosystems that actually get value out of the usage governance transaction fees and is shared with the community this is actual value it works why because it's an infrastructure people use those infrastructure but at the end of the day a lot of people in the space think that like all of those assets get value in in some kind of magic way those asset needed liquidity so dexes amms osmosis uni swap have been created

so this is how like the idea of traditional finders has started to dig in and come into the crypto space so basically liquidity has been created and then like the vision of traditional finest has started to also chip in so borrowing lending leverage has been created but at the end of the day what happened with traditional finance ended up happening also in crypto and defy a lot of hopes and expectations that's what we've been hooked to in the crypto space i like this meme this cute one enters the key foundation so what i said

we try to bridge real life businesses real value to defy so this is why the keychain has recently undergone an upgrade that helped it become a l1 protocol that enables real businesses real value being built on top of it and i'm quite happy to talk about one specific company that is currently building a system that i find quite exciting to bring continuous real value into defy i'm talking about rewards which is a company that builds loyalty tokens for brands

to incentivize a community of consumers to have positive action toward the brand so how does it work it restores the power of the brand lover lovers and enables you to interact with the brand and it's a single app for community ownership so if the brand launches an nft then you have it on your wallet on rewards and if you have tokens of that brand then you have it on your wallet on rewards so the app is completely connected to the keychain and the token love lives in the keychain and and actually the brand lovers are able to interact with the brand through those systems you are for example

uh a customer of 11 paris so 11 paris is an example of a brand a real life brand a fashion brand that has 80 000 customers and they are the first ones that have created a loyalty token connected to defy and that actually lives on the keychain and they have built a virtuous circle and ecosystem of stakeholders that enables them to enhance the engagement so you stack your lvn tokens you stake them you get access to tiered services and rewards and then depending on what you buy with 11 pairs then you get more lvn tokens and those lvm tokens either you use them

to buy other products with 11 paris or you use them to get to the next tier of services and rewards 11 paris chips in 1.5 of their revenue to buy back the lvn tokens so that they're able to redistribute them so they have created like a very virtuous token economics about the lvn token so that there is scarcity but also there is demand and value that accrues to the token a few numbers that are quite interesting so 11 paris is a company that generates 18 million dollars of revenue and in the last two months with just the nfts and the token they

generated 300k of revenue from something that is actually not their core business and this is just direct value that have been created with the tokens and the whole defy space what's quite interesting is that all the people that receive tokens and nfts 100 of them have actually converted as users of rewards because they are engaged and what's even more interesting all of the holders of the nfts receive weekly payments of lvn tokens more than 32 percent of click-through rate among those customers this is actually massive because the repeat business actually becomes bigger and the

investment that has been done by 11 paris is actually minimal the return over investment is crazy there is value that has been created value created from customers that use their hard earned money to buy product on 11 paris and part of that money goes into the token that goes into defy and i'm quite excited to say that starting yesterday a pool has been created on osmosis the pool 772 with a base pair xki lvn i'm just asking for people that work at osmosis to merge the pull request so that people can actually buy lvn

tokens if they want i think this is just the beginning and we actually am quite excited that we have created this new term called brandfi branded finance and this is just the first step the lvn token is going to become an asset of value that customers engage customers need to own to benefit from their brands benefits from services that money can't buy and the lvn token could be used for example by the the same company as a collateral to get access to more liquidity to invest in other projects

it could be used also to fund community products it i think that most of the brands are going to chip into this vision that is actually getting executed with the keychain and we're in talk with the a few uh of the big names in the fashion industry but also in other consumer services and we're quite excited to see that we're going to bring tens of millions of dollars of real value into the d5 ecosystem into the cosmos thank you very much if you have any questions i'm really happy to answer [Applause] yeah i think we have quest we have time

for one question are there any questions uh thanks a lot for the for the speech i was very interesting and i agree with that with your vision of brentfi uh it's pretty great what 11 is doing and their vision but do you think that big names uh in like web 2 or traditional um companies will be able to have the same paradigm shift and we're able to give up maybe parts of the centralized aspect and part of the revenue for this kind of model thank you for the question

it's actually a very good question so i think actually it's not only thinking it's actually numbers that we see it's not giving up part of the revenue because they already give part of their revenue for acquisition and getting new customers what's interesting and what we saw is that there was a raise of 15 of orders uh because those people actually got engaged with those just nfts and not even the whole system so the people that get engaged more than with just like uh hey you're a member of 11 paris and you get access to five percent discount

etc etc if you engage them in a more financial way and also providing them in the future with more governance rights towards the brands and access to new stuff that they didn't have access to and like it's kind of becoming transactional i think that the repeat business from those guys he's going to be he's going to be bigger and and the value that you give back which is maybe one point five percent two percent of your revenue actually you get it tenfold in repeat business what's important in a business repeat retention that's the most important important part if you have a business that has a 60 80 retention rate then you don't even need to invest in in

acquisition at a certain point in time because everyone is here they love your product and they will bring you also even more people that's what brand fi and loyalty tokens are gonna fix and also it will create another angle that brings you to a point where you think i'm part shareholder of that company why would i buy my shirts with that other company the money is gonna actually with 11 pairs the money comes back in my pocket so i'm gonna buy when i'm an investor in a company i only use the services of that company why would i use the competitor well if i don't have the the choice i would do it but obviously i think we're getting into a point where

transparency trustless environments and crypto is enabling something that was not possible previously which is liquefying the whole value of businesses and finance in in a very uh like a homogenous ecosystem of stakeholders customers partners etc etc and i think that um and also just to to to let you know we're talking with big brands like international and also brands that are in the stock market the only point that is actually a problem for them is regulation that's the only issue they have they want to create loyalty tokens they just don't see the regulated route to do it without like

being sued by the sec they want it we just need to provide them with the framework thank you so much radar and now we will continue with a panel about the recent terror drama hosted by ivor the last tour are you here and also with sunny agarwal and radar you will join us once again thank you

thank you hello everybody um really humbled to moderate this panel and uh thanks for all the the to the nebula summit team for forty organization so we have a very easy and difficult panel a lot of things to say about the terra luna meltdown so you are all more or less or we're more or less close to the terra luna ecosystem at least with

ibc which is the consensus so uh what were your faults before the meltdown and what are they after yeah always i've been skeptical about the algorithm of luna i run a fund we never buy lunar ust to to make yields because i think the mechanism is kind of flow if you don't have an interesting value on the token that that burn to make some stable coin because when you have the death loop you have nothing to save this loop and if you have another usage the tera was having some a lot of usage but

all the usage was kind of related to usd and there was no diversity of usage on the terra layer one and i think that it it is very important for an algorithmic stable coin in my opinion um if you if you keep the same programmatic and logarithmic algorithmic logical to have some value on the tokens that you burn because if you don't have that value you will have a worthless minting uh when you really lose the peg and if you have some other usage for example if you if you were on the term and you have many usage on atom and you have other usage it will be different i think and so

it's difficult to imagine that a protocol like that could sustain a long long term vision and to and that the protocol could have a market cap of stable coin that is higher than the market cap of i'm gonna get give me a hug gonna give a hot take which is i think i feel like tara like so when like tara first came and like you know you look at their white paper when they first came and talked to us at cosmos like you know they have this idea that like can you build if you build up enough demand for a stable coin real economic demand for a stable coin can that itself maintain the system and like you know the the system that the the

mechanism they use was like without real the idea the question was the hypothesis was can you use demand to build to build that system and what it was you know terra is like actually the closest thing we've seen to like on-chain fiat cards it uses a very similar dynamics to like most fiat currencies um and i think that like you know anchor was the problem right they kind of like got really greedy after a while and they realized that like hey as the supply of ust increased that you know the value of luna kept increasing and so they got kind of greedy gave out this like 20 fake yield and one of the problems was that like the problem with the 20 fake yield is

actually made it harder for people to build real use cases for ust because you know we were building our lending protocol on osmosis called isotonic you know we're not doing that anymore we're kind of working with mars now but like for isotonic we have to to get deposits of ust we had to beat the 20 yield from anchor which is like actually makes it harder to build real use cases and they kind of like just undermined their own you know the experiment that they set out to do they kind of just undermined it by instead of like building real natural organic demand for usda it was all just this like fake synthetic anchor demand and like you know and those people ran for the door as soon as uh you know

usd started like deep pegging so yeah that's kind of my like you know i feel like i wonder if like in an alternate world if this mechanism would have worked without anchor without them like providing this fake yield i need to be fair with the terra luna because i was quite optimistic before what happened um in my opinion there were some misrepresentations so basically they claimed that chai was running on top of uh ust and that transaction fees were settled with with ust which actually was just discovered that it was fake and and that was the organic demand that made me optimistic about the fact that

you had one of the major products in korea using ust as a settlement layer even though the value was not 100 captured but the velocity of billions of dollars of transactions actually can create value out of that now we know that it was fake and actually what drove the value is the greed of the anchor protocol the value has been created out of hey we can we're giving you 20 yield on stablecoin yeah it was it was a honeypot and basically um i think that from what sunny was was saying i think that it could have worked if there was if those representations were real i think that

it could have been like the real decentralized uh fiat currency but basically i think that um we need to be more careful about stable coins uh in in in the world and that today if you talk about stablecoin then you you need to be packed to fiat currency so i think that you need to think twice when you use a stablecoin is it emitted by the actor or the institution that gives you the collateral that's that's the most important part in my opinion yeah and i think picking up on that from the perspective of an infrastructure operator we were chainflo is a genesis validator for terra

and it's also the first network we decided to stop operating on we stopped operating on it back in 2019 i guess it was and we did that for two reasons one we weren't i mean just to say it this way we really weren't happy with the way doe was running the show we didn't like that he was essentially telling validators what to do and validators were doing it um so that was the first warning sign for us and then when the stablecoin launched quite frankly we just simply didn't understand it and we didn't take the time to understand it so based on those two things we decided to take down our operation and this was back in yeah right around late 2019 right around defcon osaka and so at the beginning that was our take i mean there's some fomo i'd say over the past what nine six to nine

months but you know ultimately now you know while we sympathize with a lot of people who lost a lot of money um in the you know because of this you know we feel grateful that we stuck to our values so we had some suspicions early on you know i think it's easy for those suspicions to get superseded by fomo fortunately in our case it didn't this time but i mean that's to be said that because we're so new in all this and for some things i think we'll talk about later you know it's easy for the other thing to happen pretty fast too thanks a lot now it's introspection time guys uh it's easy to criticize on twitter but it's also good to say what could i do

better on a personal professional level on a community level to avoid such things or to improve it what are your thoughts about it tokonomics auditing and economics editing and economics editing i think we we just don't look at economics as a serious thing as technical stuff for example we have start to see that some protocol and some logical have particular attention to the consensus layer particular attention to a few layer layers of execution etc etc but we don't see the tokenomics as an essential

layers also that should be study and study and study to be very resilient and i think in the case of uh of their eyes uh even more important to look at the techniques as the protocol is economics uh mechanism but uh i really think that the the main problem was not doing so much auditing on the company people who run the the company the foundation people who run the foundation and maybe the protocol itself and yeah that main major problem of crypto i think it's uh it's a problem that we all have because the space is very quick and

if you have to take decision and of investigation decision sometimes you don't have the time to to make proper audits and due diligence yeah i i i need i i'm gonna double down on this and and less trust more control and more paranoia like the the problem in this space is that we need to be paranoid uh like you receive a linkedin request from a dev that wants to work with you like 90 chances from north korea so basically you need to think twice when you use something in this space you need like to audit it you need to think about

the worst case scenario like we have been so i'm going to talk about key we have been like one of the and we're still suffering from the usd collapse because we had like a 1.5 million dollar pool in ust on osmosis and we still stuck with it so basically we're suffering every day from external incentives being distributed to people providing liquidity on usd pool um and we have decided to rely on ust and it was our choice it was our mistake to say hey let's trust uh terra let's trust the ust and i think that so now we even though

i think that the axler team is like quite solid and they have built a great product i'm cold feet right now when i see that it's a bridge stable coin and i think one of the most important thing that we need to have in the cosmos so this is my learning we need to we need a real native stable coin in the cosmos we'll have native usdc on osmosis very soon oh that's amazing that's an alpha whoa so i think that like control paranoia is is something that is really important and and in in the in the blockchain and crypto space um everyone that builds a product needs to have that sense of like i should not

trust i should like really yeah i verify just emphasize that i mean i think that's super important i think we do trust too much and then i think in addition to that i think we have to look at the leaders of the projects quite a bit and i think you know we have to make sure that we align with the leaders of the projects especially when we're putting a lot of money behind them but to your point things are moving so fast so often and people don't want to miss out that you know a lot of that diligence often gets overlooked but i think from a scientific point of view and most people i think you know in the space tend to come from an engineering background you know at least believe in the scientific process i mean getting to a point to make you know

proving something isn't broken as opposed to believing it is fixed you know it's probably the perspective that we need to shift more to and then finally from a personal perspective i think you know i probably could have spoken up more loudly than i did at the time you know i wrote a post recently or not recently i wrote a post after the fact called the rise of the activist validator that talked about the experience but didn't even really name tara so i think from a personal perspective i could have spoken up maybe a little bit more loudly but i'm not sure that that message would have been heard you know i think for some other reasons we can get into when we can talk about what's moving forward but yeah i think that's my perspective oh now you can hear me should i go through that again

so the short version is i think uh probably as an individual speaking up uh louder you know when we made this decision to come down from the network and then as a community yeah um to your point be skeptical and you know make sure that you prove to some prove to yourself that something works as opposed to believing that something works and and hoping it doesn't break um from an osmosis perspective i think one thing that we should do in our are moving towards is just like a revamp of how incentives work so our incentive system right now is like very much focused on like looking at the current state of the network and reward and like you know

what at a very high level what the incentive system is doing is looking at the assets that have the most volume and putting incentives towards there because you know we're we're trying to do this sort of volume maximization and so um i feel that that like is not the right long-term approach because what you want to do in the long term is like you you don't want to just look at like hey this is what the state of the uh market is today we want to we actually want to do is say hey this is where we want liquidity to go and and we should put incentives in the place where we want to uh accrue liquidity so this is what we've started doing which is like you know we've moved into a world where like hey we're

looking to like okay look we want more east liquidity we want more usdc liquidity let's put incentives there and le and then let liquidity aggregate so instead of like being this very passive system where like we let you know oh okay look ust and luna were high volume assets so let's put all the incentives there oh not all but like you know half the incentives there uh instead we should be like you know more osmosis governance needs to start being more strategic about government about incentives and like thinking about where it wants to be making sure it's well diversified and things like that yeah thanks a lot uh for your transparency um

some people say that government uh it's not my personal opinion but government with crypto are good at two things doing nothing or overreacting so uh is regulation a necessary good or an s3 evil on such case like detail meltdown it's always non-binary i think always all is gradient so it's not yes or not but uh my opinion i think you know but the regulation is that it must be optional and very [Music] very constructive with a lot of sandbox not low before we know how things will

work and so in my opinion i think that right now the regulations that will arrive in europe with mika is pretty bad for the stable kind of environment because it's it's made by people that doesn't know how stable code works it's made by people that i think even have don't don't take a look at the metric of stablecoin because like a 1 million limits of volume per day is totally crazy for the stablecoin so the u.s bill the draft right now i think it's better really regulation is a good stuff to give a framework but it it must not stop

innovation it must not forbid all the stuff it must be privacy oriented right now is not the case of most of the regulation so for me yeah regulation is more um an enemy right now of crypto than an helpful friend but yeah maybe when they will have more suitable regulation and more optional logical because if you have an optional logical you let people create and you know you could still punish robbing or stuff like that even if you don't have a regulation on

banking system because if something rob europe you have contract with with people you have a contract that is not respect so for me you could have optional agreement that permit to have a stem by authorities but you could have have some companies that that run critical business uh without that stamp and just reputation because cryptocurrency is about that it's a it's an economy of reputation since the beginning and i'm really attached to pseudonymous uh logical and to pseudonymous reputation and i think identity we in the long run will help us to build very resilient system without regulation and without being present uh as name and to have very uh

important people like it's the case right now but even more unchained people that that will be very important and that maybe will be judged on the future addiction of crypto and stuff like that for me we have to build this this world of trust with absolute animus and privacy logical uh without the states and make like our own regulation by code because there will always be disputes you could have the best smart contract you you want at the end you will have discussion and dispute between human and we must have jurisdiction and we must have people that can judge uh with the constitution of a project with the law of their own

project i'm sorry i i don't agree with you i know i know yeah yeah because we have this discussion many times um i think that uh so the pro the enemy is not regulators the enemy is the lack of education on what blockchain is and how does it provide value in the in the ecosystem um let's not forget that terra was an experiment and all of us here knew it was an experiment and we were ready to take the risk the real problem though are those centralized actors that offered high-yield savings accounts without telling people that they will like aping into ust and anchor this is

the problem and the regulator should have acted there other actors i'm going to talk about something else they provide you money it's like it's a security you're providing them something and if you don't provide the information about what's happening and what are the risk this is the this is the lack of transparency and regulators work in that so for example when you provide a product they ask you to have like a document that explains exactly what are the risks and and that's that's the problem actors like celsius

that actually promised defy were not defy actors they were centralized actors actually doing the job of the bank with fractional reserve and aping into high volatility assets and hoping that people won't get their money back because they get healed from the money that is deposited and that's where regulation needs to act those actors that actually do centralized stuff non-auditable non-untrained stuff defies the solution regulators should not regulate defy the old way they should make sure that d5 protocols actually respect auditability trust

security this is actually what needs to be done and that's how regulators need to be educated so at the end of the day sure the regulator could end up as an enemy but not because they want to stop uh they want to protect that's what they want to do and and what happened in the 80s in the 90s it has just happened again in the last three three or four years people getting yields out of nowhere and they want to get those yields and and they end up wrecked like so that's that's the price but you also have a transfer value yeah more actually smarter people and big pockets get with even bigger pockets and that's that's the problem and this is why regulators

are here why i was talking with karin earlier and we were saying why is prop trading regulated when a bank does prop trading and trades with its own money it can trade against their customers and this is what goldman sachs has done and this is what many actually banks has done and regulation is there to protect the retail from those smarter people that actually can extract value out of the people that do not inform themselves and and i think this regulation is important i think i i have two questions or i think this it's really two questions for me it's one should uh should regulation be here and then two who should be doing the regulation i agree with a lot of things you said

but i don't necessarily agree that regulation to date has been protecting retail investors i think that's that's the smoke screen for what's really been going on but moving on from that i think to the degree that the community itself can self-regulate that will go a long way in toward then hopefully influencing how much governmental regulators need to get involved so if the community can do a good job in educating themselves and self-regulating themselves hopefully maybe the need for regulation by the government will be a lot lighter than it will be otherwise because if we have terra after terra after terra after terra then sooner or later the governments which are very slow moving to begin with will start to kick into gear faster

so i do think that if we're able to hold them at bay at all in order to better establish ourselves while also um showing that we know what we're doing to some extent and are capable of some self-preservation then we'll be more resilient once the governmental regulators start knocking down the door what do you think of the showcase that the community has shown us with the juno whale situation yeah i mean i think that's part of it that's one of the problems that needs to be overcome one of the problems that needs to be overcome is that people need to be paying attention yeah the problem is that the community actually there is an asymmetric way of getting information and you can manipulate a community to do something if you have enough reach towards the community and i think that's hoping that the community can

self-regulate it's a very strong hope i hope to but i kind of lost that's a matter of incentive you have the good incentive you need you need to take the time and you need to read and you need to educate and i think that's like 10 that of people do it well i mean to that to that point i think you know i talk a lot about decentralization particularly in validator sets and a lot of times that message doesn't get hurt and what i keep hoping is that you know not hoping but in a way hoping thinking that eventually people are going to start paying attention to these things when enough pain is felt right so in this case i thought maybe tara

would be the forcing factor for people to start feeling that pain and maybe doing their own research a little bit more i mean once the numbers start going up again who knows i mean all bets may be off but i do think that there needs to be some intersection between the community and the regulators because if the regulators come in and do what they're doing now you know all they're going to do is buy time for the big institutions to come in and get their hooks in this and then what are we left with etfs you know crypto etfs and a six percent return actually actually the regulators only listen to the people that take the time to talk to them and i think that we need to take the time to talk to regulators to provide them with the vision that we need to see executed

i would agree with that part maybe to finish on a on a positive note and looking to the to the right direction um [Music] what excites you for the next step and what outcome can you come from this meltdown to do a a better contribution to the cosmos and and blockchain ecosystem in your opinion yeah i think just picking up on where i left off i think hopefully this can be a forcing factor for people to really understand that to the extent that we own these networks and we own these and you know these communities are ours we have to participate we have to pay attention and hopefully this is a forcing factor for

more people to do that um and i had one other thing but i forgot so i'll pass it on um yeah i think you know in general it was a you know osmosis was hit pretty heavily by the terror collapse you know uh we were the biggest decks for ust uh and i almost close to half the liquidity on osmosis was with usd and luna combined and so you know we definitely took quite a hit there and so you know i think just definitely a bigger focus on diversity of assets but also like you know safety systems so you know we had we've had these ideas of like you know volatile volatility aware amms that could have

helped protect our lps um in general uh you know i think with bridges like you know building safety limits into bridges like there's no reason that more than 25 of your bridges like assets should be like leaving in like a one hour period right if that's happening there's probably something wrong and you need to like pause your bridge or something and so you know building in these more automated safety systems into the protocol to like protect lps and users um in the long term is sort of what we are spending a lot of time a lot of our time thinking about i mean after all it's like if you're not doing that like what's the point of defy yeah there is no free lunch

never forget no no to to be more serious i think uh it's a good listen of uh of terra and luna was to show also the resilience of protocols of d5 even if economically there was some problem clearly it was a big demonstration a big improvement for customers to show that customers sdk to show it it worked very well 1 trillion of volume in 24 hours managed by tendermint and the cosmos sdk i think that we're all here and we can say that we have the best consensus protocol in the world because it has been stress

tested and there was no bailouts and there was no you know it's um it's always interesting to compare eventual our capital surface etc there is no bailout when it's unfair to bailout but there is bailout when it's kind fair to bail out for example wormhole or stuff like that and it's interesting to see how crypto start to self-regulate even financially because when you have some platforms that get down and it's fair to save them or people have very great interest to save them they save them and it's a big difference between a crypto and traditional war because they're too big to fail could fail there wasn't too big to fail that failed

because it was too uh unfair and too unrealistic to to save but some are safe because there is interest of the biggest number to save i think we could also talk about the proposition about the tierra 2 that would uh save uh where there was there was a lot of arbitrage to know uh where was the new airdrop and stuff it was i think not so great but if i remember the the repartition but those uh just demonstrate how we self-regulate self-regret it it's interesting to see that crypto uh is more and more active and that is the community and governance of all protocol

and operations start to be more and more decentralized with a lot of people uh participating like four years ago it was not the case you you don't have form where people will discuss proposals during hours and hours and many many people not just your team or some active users i think it's quite clear that edli and i speak a lot because like we have the same conclusion uh one the first thing is that yeah we've been stress tested and i think i'm quite hap actually actually it's like the trade-off we lost 1.5 million of liquidity but at the end of the day it that the cosmos sdk was trusted and the second thing um and i think that

is something that quite interesting we didn't have like i prefer a horrific end than a horror that does not end and that's what we had since 2008 with like the crisis of the subprime everyone we all paid for this but with the terra and the whole like meltdown and defy defy actually worked the people that were involved got wrecked that's it and i think that this is the great thing to do it's like if you take risk you want to get have big gains then you take risk but at the end of the day when it hits it hits and it won't

touch your neighbor who was not involved in the thing and and i think that's that's actually yeah well indirect direct q enable yeah but at the end of the day i think that uh it's also proof that dfi works on uh on economical uh like level and and that's great i'm i'm quite hopeful for the future uh great guys uh unfortunately we don't have time for questions but please feel free to reach out to these amazing guys they are biddlers and and very precious thank you guys thank you

[Applause] maybe we have time for one more question depending on if if zeki is here already zeki are you here already no so we have time for one more question okay thank you first for the debate and uh asking important questions i don't have a question uh i just have some remarks i think uh that's saying uh you know do your your due deal uh don't believe is obviously true it's true until a certain extent first for small project we we know what to

look at then when it comes to very high-end innovation already there is a level of there is a time when you need to trust and based on the market cap of the project um it seems to me a lot of very smart people were involved in the project one way or another so and a lot one also yeah no exactly so you know very good for you but you know and and some of us we're in the luna not in the in the ust surely not in the ankle protocol somewhere in the ust not in the luna surely not on the anchor protocol etc etc so but you know the belief makes it difficult even when you know it's linked because we all knew it was linked to

just move away completely from it but that's again just a general remark then when it's on the topic of regulation like who should regulate i think progressively we will move towards the way the traditional world is uh governed if i may say for an obvious reason which is interoperability so we all remember the day of uh osmosis and how the you know cosmos ecosystem suffered indirectly so even if you were not in induced project you suffered and then you know on that very day i remember thinking this is the limit of interoperability basically so so i think the mix is probably un until um you know when the project which

reaches a certain level and certain market cap maybe there should be sort of a consortium you know in banking in entrance or you know not consortium but you know call it whatever committee when people look at each other kind of and uh you know then there's like some people who are able to raise a on you know a red flag i mean i heard you chris saying maybe i should have been louder or maybe you know some people should say hey you know you got you saw that what do you think what do you think and then maybe saying you know like you know people you know maybe not the people in this room but you know just people be careful because we see this and that then from a regulatory point of view i mean i

hope we'll see the sec moving away from the you know security non-security uh debate and have obviously a specific regulation uh you know for crypto assets i think it's it's gonna happen soon uh i mean if if we have a regulation for asset-backed securities different from stocks then there is no reason why you know uh there should be one for for the for these assets and maybe the combination of both makes it you know easier for for for everyone all of us and the system two quick comments on that um regarding what we understand and what we don't understand and the founders and not the founders i think that gets back to my point i mean there are a lot of smart people in the world and you also have to understand the values behind the people

so i think if you're making the jump between understanding something and not understanding something maybe the way to fill that gap is by understanding the values of the people behind it and then on your point about raising the red flags there's a group of validators working up there right now on this so if you're interested in that i'd encourage you to stop in this afternoon sure and to finish on too big to fail so it was not too big to fail i mean it's not too big it's too big for the ecosystem it's not ecosystem exactly so when you think about you know the word of tomorrow which is decentralized hopefully and we all want to see that then you know you just don't want to be in a terra luna situation anymore because uh it's i think we've all very

lucky that it happened now and that it doesn't happen in five years or ten years uh so we everybody can learn the you know the lesson from it including the youngest people who never saw major crisis in the past uh and then yeah you know act from it and yeah but i prefer that there is no bailout you know for example i would love love that american bank and world banking system just collapsed during well it happened you know it happened it didn't happen and because there is a very shitty guy and the chicky guy is a states and give money free money and not directly the states it's a political uh money to influence bankers central bankers that that should be private and independent

entities uh and they give money to bankers they give money to states like crazy and uh right now they will buy bonds and bonds and bonds because uh states are totally in-depth and the money only goes to the wealthier right now because all money is debt creating so it's a different subject sorry no no it's a very good question but coming from triad phi there is a real question about the role of central banks and we were talking about this i think we're all more and more educated about social banks i think the last generation didn't know it was working and now we are very lucky because we understand and we can say this might be wrong

uh i was just going to talk about central banks in general you know i mean i feel like don't i we used to talk a lot about like how we see the future of money evolving and we are like two very different views or same goal different views of how to achieve it you know my my general take on money in general i think what's gonna happen is we're gonna see a you know today you have those like three functions of money you have the unit of account medium exchange store value and i think these things are going to get like sort of uh taken apart and you know i i guess like a couple years ago i got like really into like monetary policy and stuff and like just understanding it

and i'm like you know i became a fiat maximalist i think fiat is actually the coolest thing ever um be honest so i think fiat's like the greatest invention of the last hundred years um but like the problem is it's very like discretionary like you know letting central bankers choose when what to do with it is like doesn't seem right what we want to move towards is like algorithmic monetary policy right like the fundamental basis of fiat is just this idea that like you want money is a market and you want the supply of money to um react to changes in demand for money and so fiat is a system that does that and you want to just make that more algorithmic and so

uh i think tara was an interesting approach of how to try to do that um but you know the approach that we're going for with inject you know my long-term vision of what the point of osmosis is is i want to see a world where every asset is money like you go to a store and you pay with uh your you apple stock and the merchant receives um i don't know shares of their favorite nfp right like all assets are money and we're gonna you missed the brand fire keynote yeah so i don't know i i think that's an interesting world that we move towards and then like the unit of

account will become like this like dictionary unit of account so if you look at like chile what they do is they actually have two units of account they have like the chilean peso and the unidad de fermento uh which like the uf is like it it's it's a index that the central bank puts out every day and it's not it's pegged to inflation and it's not an actual asset it but like and so you know you go to the store you buy something it's it's nominating chilean pesos but all your long-term payments are denominated in uf your rent your mortgage your car payment you know all of these are denominated in uf and it's like i don't know this idea of like dictionary units of accounts are very interesting to me and i think like they

eventually like central banks are going to move into this world where like they become standards and measures institutes where what they do is they like study the economy and then output these indices that like you know act as unit of accounts for the for people to use but i think it's going to be communities i think i think those units of accounts are going to be generated by communities by brands by institutions by by and that's quite interesting because it will create like i think we're moving towards a world of tribes that are interconnected and like if you see the cosmos ecosystem we are kind of tribes that are internet interconnected through one protocol

and i i completely agree with this vision and that's i think that's gonna be the implementation of the stakeholder capitalism great conclusion thanks a lot guys thank you yeah sorry guys you'll have to stay there for a little bit um just quick question because you were talking about the horror that never ends and we've seen it with uh terra kind of because they launched terra 2.0 which well it exists somewhere there and it's working i guess do you think it was an honest attempt to give money back to people who lost some

of some of it or was it just a way to say to regulators or to people coming after them well we tried it didn't work out but at least we tried so we did all our best so you cannot really attack us you remember that scene on the wolf of wall street when he needs to resign and at certain points he comes to do the speech and he says i'm not leaving i think that's what's happened with terra 2.0 um but uh i i don't know actually it's it's it's uh i don't know what happens in in in the mind of someone who actually had a 80 billion dollar ecosystem that goes to zero in uh

in a few days um i think there is maybe a honest attempt of saving the saving phase or saving there was an ecosystem on terra actually and there was some builders ontario great builders um but i think that it was too centralized and i'm quite happy to see people from mars protocol going to build on osmosis i'm quite happy to see other uh like loop i think is going on juno um no it's it's exciting to see the cosmos work as it was supposed to work yeah i think the the only perspective i have on that is that everybody's attention span especially in the crypto space is really short

and i think a good way to keep people a good way to distract people is by giving them something to do so you know if nothing else i think it's easy to distract from what happened by looking forward so i would i wonder if there's a little bit of that in terror too yeah i feel like i don't know i feel like i might have accidentally incepted the idea of terror too uh where i mean what i was telling them was like what they should have done like very early in the dpeg process was like you know i don't know i i guess i saw that the system was going to zero anyways as soon as the d-peg started and i think at like what they should have done was just like halt the chain

convert all ust or allow all units usd to be converted to luna at this uh last known spot price on astroport and just like you know they had an ecosystem there and they could have just like done that but yeah i actually think that they believed in you know to their credit kind of they like believed in the mechanism like you know i i don't think they were like scamming people i think they like went down with the ship and they like believed it till the last minute and so um yeah so they wrote it all and then and then they were like oh okay well wait should we do that idea of like doing doing the you know saving the ecosystem like guys it's too late now but yeah so i don't know i think there

was actually an op there was like a window of opportunity there where like it would have there was something that could have been done but like yeah they didn't take it a big round of applause [Applause] questions of any kind what

oh kill switches yeah yeah so we added a functionality to osmosis for expedited proposals where you can basically um you know the validator set can like uh tr you know we don't have to wait the full five days before proposals connect you so that will definitely help um and you know i think we might end up having you know i supposed to stay very apt chain focused but like we're going to eventually have more stuff on osmosis so like the the situation that we had where the we had that hack and then we

halted the chain for five days like that's pretty unacceptable going forward right especially when you have other systems on the chain right like uh you know this is something mars has brought up with us with like guys like hey you know you can't just halt the chain for five days we're gonna accumulate bad debt in that time that's not okay right so i think being able to pause certain functionalities without halting the entire chain is gonna be like you know something we we definitely need yeah

yeah um if anyone wants to submit a pr to remove be able to like stop those incentives um are we moving it on to the next person i don't know where zaki is oh

any more random questions for me who's your designer our designer his name is kevin uh he is amazing he is the first person so uh we worked with him back at aib um he you know he was working on iris for a while worked with us at aib as contractor one of our advisors you know early on before we even knew what we were building before osmosis was given idea he's like yo you should hire kevin he's amazing and i'm like shouldn't we like hire like an engineer or something first and then no no no hire kevin and i'm like i'm like all right fine and then yeah so good i think like you know it's weird like you know

normal companies have mascots right like you know mcdonald's has ronald mcdonald or geico has the lizard dude and like why don't crypto projects have mascots it feels very obvious to me like i think like being able to like absorb the persona and like you know brand in the mascot is like very important um yeah i was just going to ask about mars mars protocol like is there a timeline on that i know you're not um yeah i i don't know the exact like exact timeline but it should be in the order of a couple months basically um yeah they're gonna have like a lot of cool

stuff i i i i really like mars i think they're actually the best lending protocol in like all of crypto like they're doing some like really cool things like one of the cool one one for example one of the cool things that i really like is like they have this idea of like margin accounts where what will happen is when what you can do is you can borrow instead of borrowing into your normal account you can borrow into this special like smart contract account and then you can use it to you can use that account to trade on osmosis pools against for for any asset that is like mars would have accepted as collateral anyways and so you can basically what the what the smart

contract account does is it's actually still controlled by the protocol mars protocol so it can liquidate the trading account itself and so that can count towards your collateral so if you go on like centralized exchanges today right like you borrow assets you don't you can't like withdraw those assets from the exchange right you they're kept in this margin account and so mars is kind of doing a very similar thing and so this actually lets you like reduce a lot of the uh collateral requirements when you need when it comes to like trading assets so i don't know very cool sort of functionalities and like i think they're just working on like things that like no other lending protocol is working on will be um implementing interchange

security on launch um i i mean on launch no because like you know that would require us giving up our validator set and like i you know i think the world that we're we'd be more interested in like i forgot how the version numbers go but maybe like like v3 or something where it's like you know we want to maintain our own osmo staking but then still you know we can augment that with like interchange security right we're not going to replace osmo staking completely right we spent a lot of time working on super fluid staking and stuff i think the long term end goal of how like shared security evolves is it's not actually going to be a hub and spoke

model what it's really going to be is this like mesh network of security where you have a lot of app chains that are like all providing validity proofs to each other and uh common slashing conditions so you know eventually you know we just have to accept that like look all of these chains all have like 75 overlapping validator sets anyways and so what's gonna happen is validators are going to opt in to like joint slashing conditions so a validate or some let's say a validator does something malicious on uh osmosis they're gonna you know get slashed on mars chain and dydx and you know wherever they're gonna get slashed everywhere and i think that's actually gonna happen this i i say we

have like soft shared security right now anyways because like look if someone like if a valentine axelr like steals money from the bridge like i'll be okay we're probably gonna use governance to slash them on osmosis right so i think it's more of a matter of like building this more uh automated into the protocol but i i feel like yeah security's gonna come this like sort of everything is securing each other it's all this like mesh of security rather than a hub and spoke model so would you say it's more of like a hybrid like having osmosis stickers and yeah okay so what's gonna happen is like you have osmo steak but then if you back it with steak on other chains you know you get more

voting power or something like that yeah i have a question um but what's if we look will it's uh compared to not as much as to the money what if the money is a communication protocol it's not accounting of something it's not about even value it's about how we can economical communication between each other so i come to somebody and tell will you write for me a code and person tell what i will get for the right in your code i said i will give you one billion mongolian two greeks and persons ask what is the one million mongolian two

greeks this economical protocol of connection is not applaud to me i say okay what what you are accept or i accept uh dollar or euro or bitcoin it means that the protocol comm communication protocol of economical connection bitcoin is uploaded so person who don't accept the bitcoin or ammonia secure cryptocurrency just don't upload this communication protocol for this person it's like a mongolian two greeks they don't understand so um and um if we will look on this like and on the communication protocol how my economical connection will be

go through which protocol it's totally changed the economical understanding yeah yes we'll discuss outside i think we move on okay here sec here with his huh yeah yeah lunches after this cool all right last taco for lunch sorry i was late i didn't make the schedule uh i can't be in two places at one time uh there's a myth that i can but it doesn't actually it's not actually true um so what is we're going to talk about isd is this going to work sweet start here cool all right uh what is ist

ist is a stable coin why do we care about stable coins uh there you may have heard there was a thing that happened to this the stable coin that was uh sort of dominant across the ibc ecosystem we've been working on ist uh as sort for all more than a year uh it is what you would imagine as like the first use case of the igorik platform um so agoric is an ibc connected smart contract lawyer that lets you write smart contracts in javascript um and so you can build arbitrary d5 things on top of it part of the plan for gorick has been to sort of launch with one family of smart contract applications on top of it before we sort of open it up to the entire world because agorax is this like immensely sophisticated platform uh like

the uh the sort of kernel or operating system of the smart contract layer is 200 000 lines of javascript uh it's this like really fancy uh thing that is going to be like a smart contract environment that like no we haven't seen before i mean it like builds on top of 40 years of work but like our first demo of this is the uh ist stable token so what are the like sor core uh uh features uh it is an over cap over collateralized stable coin um the basic mechanism design is very similar to multi-collateral dye um it is it because it builds on top of it is all built out of the eugoric framework it's not built out of the cosmos sdk or cosmosm it is this much more dynamic environment

that uh allows for a programmability and extensibility of the issuance system of the co of the liquidation system of all the stuff and that's mostly what this talk is about and then it is the ibc native uh it is an ibc native stable coin uh uh mechanism like we want to be with ist what maker is to eat uh the sort of root uh uh uh leveraged debt-backed uh decentralized stable asset across the entire ibc ecosystem um yeah so that mostly covered that okay so like what are the what are the pieces we're gonna go uh you know i did a talk at uh gateway with

dean uh that sort of was like an overview we're gonna go this talk is gonna focus more on like the bits and pieces that make ist work um so we have the vault system uh the vault system is uh is uh as a cdp system we have a parity stability module um you uh may hear about sort of the fluctuation and how much dye is backed by usdc and how much dye is backed by eat and other uh liquid assets and why that's why that fluctuates uh in order to build the system you need to have a similar mechanism um we have this mechanism called build boost which is mostly about we'll come back to it but it it there is a mechanism by which uh you can get small amounts of ist if you are a a holder of

the staking token on uh on uh or if you're a staked holder of the if you're staked of the staking token of the agora platform um we have a native automated market maker uh because dexa's rule everything around them um we have a liquidation module that is plugged into that uh automated market maker and then there is a stability reserve uh that is always sort of the fallback mechanism to ensure stability of the protocol under extreme volatility so you think of vaults so what is the vault user experience the vault user experience is going to be um i want to you know uh the there's going to be an economic committee and a vote of build holders

that determine uh exact collateralization ratios but you imagine something like adam i have um i want to build uh i want to uh i want to have uh like mint a hundred dollars worth of ist uh i need to bring 150 worth of atom over ibc lock it up in this vault now i have my vault um i can use those uh i can use i have this fault my ist is minted to me uh if i want to get my atoms back i repay the ist um there is the collateralization ratio also determines like where you're going to be liquidated and there's a liquidation penalty uh if you are liquidated um and so many of the same dynamics that we expect to see uh that you see in sort of

the eth world you are going to see around these vaults uh you're going to have people arbiting liquidations you're going to have people uh uh scrambling to top off their wallets you know when the market falls by ninety percent uh you know it's gonna we're gonna we're gonna bring a lot of the fun and excitement of of uh of of the sort of maker system to the cosmos okay this i think is the is the is the thing that is um the most difficult thing when you're designing a stable coin for people to understand like why do you need a module that says hey we're going to take usb could you say that uh you're going to take uh

uh you're going to why do you need a mechanism okay we like we want decentralized stable coins we have in a world where they're decentralized stable coins we want to back them with like you know robust decentralized assets we have atoms we have osmo why do we need this uh why do we need to bring in custodial stable coins into the into this mix and like what is this does this make any sense the most important thing to understand about all of this is that when the market is long you expect the volatile assets to back most of the ist as the market uh uh when but when the market turns short when we're in a bear market you expect uh the the

main thing that is happening is people are buying who want to buy those uh uh uh those volatile assets at discount um because they like you know this is a great time to like sort of like you know build up your position uh and there's this great discounts on all these volatile assets that are getting uh liquidated um uh as the market goes down and you need you but you don't want to you don't want you you don't want to put your own you don't want to open up new cdps to do that you want to bring over usdc uh and use usdc to arb the system um and so we ex what you would expect is what you see with multi-collateral die which is this continuous fluctuation between being backing uh most of the die outstanding

uh between uh uh volatile assets when the market is in sort of up only mode and during periods of high volatility and when things go down you expect people to be bringing over usdc and so a lot of work collaboration with the osmosis ecosystem with the atom ecosystem et cetera talking to circle a lot um you also were going to have bridge stable coins over you know other stable coins bridging over things like axillar and nomad and all the stuff it's going to be up to build holders to again set limits on how much uh ist gets minted by each one of these potential assets how much risk we want to take but this is the this sort of core

mechanism the reason why you need to have the parity stability module is that it is going to enable efficient arbitrage and efficient retiring of debt uh during periods of volatility and will maintain the stability of the asset okay this is the thing that like triggers everyone um so the first thing because like you you hear oh i can lock uh uh the staking token of the platform i can get ist this sounds awful like tara and luna like are you recreating ust so like why are we not doing any why like none of this is happening like obviously we're not we're not doing that um why are we not doing that so first thing is you expect this value to

be really small you expect this mostly to go so the way the protocol works is ist is native to the l1 um it is a sort of a special enshrined stable coin uh on the on the agorik l1 that is run by build and so as long as ist is growing or as really as long as ist is continuing to function there is going to be a steady stream of ist from various fees to build holders and basically what you're saying is i'm going to just take essentially like an uh uh i'm going to take out a loan against that future which is that future stream of ist income that as a staked build holder i i get

and i'm gonna use that uh uh future to get like you know maybe like something on the order of like one to five percent of the dollar value of my build um so i can start paying transaction fees so i can start participating the ist ecosystem without having to have any other assets um it's especially important uh when you think about the future in which ist will be like where the full agora platform is sort of online and you have nft mints and like all these and like lots of other d5 primitives and all of your transaction fees have to be paid in ist and you're like i have build why don't i have any ist and this sort of enables you to like sort of get native access to the ecosystem so that's

the purpose of build boost uh it is going to be the expectation is going to be a very small portion of the uh total ist issuance uh the economic committee which is this all right uh the economic committee which is also this piece of the uh of the of the ecosystem is also going to uh which is like sort of this enshrined set uh elected by the build holders of people who are going to advise on the parameters of ist um are you gonna set all of these things about like how much of the how much fees do you have to pay for this future loan to the protocol what is the interest rate what are the debt limits uh how long do you give up the ability to

unstake your build um when you participate in this build process you're going to be extending like the period in which you can't unstake like far beyond you know the typical 21 days so another thing that is sort of a key piece of the ist ecosystem is there is an amm uh on uh there's an amm on uh on the uh on the agora chain um this amm system mostly is there right now to support ist it's supposed to be the it's supposed to be a place where you can buy ist where the protocol will be locking liquidity itself um it's going to be the first place where liquidations happened

it is not intended right now to be like a you know a real challenger to many of the other dexes that are coming into cosmos um but it allows us to um it allows us to not have the problems of having to like um sort of run the like liquidation auction system it seems we we believe that this will be a more stable liquidation mechanism and a much more ibc native liquidation mechanism because you know one of the things that we expect to happen is we expect to have most of the ist will be off of the agora chain most of the ist will be out in the inner chain on evmos on juno uh on neutron on like lots of other on osmosis so it'll be it'll be in osmosis

liquidity pools all these places so when liquidations happen you need to be able to bring uh uh you need to be able to so we're like liquidating into the amm pool but we don't liquidate all at once there's like a control function that is constantly looking at how much the price oracle has changed how much liquidity is available in pool how much how the price in the pool has been fluctuating relative to the oracle and we are constantly figuring like there's this continuous control loop that is like trying to figure out how much liquidation to do at sort of every block and so arbitragers are going to be able to we'll be ibc uh uh ist over uh participating these liquidations uh also shoring up the collateralization ratios

but this is what this is like sort of a key sort of component of the of the vault system all right so sort of walked through what are the core bits and pieces of what makes uh ist really unique um a lot of people in cosmos are building stable coins it's pretty logical that that people are you see them coming out of various ecosystems and many of them are you know especially with algorithmic stable coins being so disfavored or are doing why do i think ist is going to win uh why do i think ist is the potential to be the dominant stable coin in the in the ibc ecosystem and the real reason is

i think the competitive landscape of stable coins is going to continuously evolve um and if you've looked at like for instance how maker is coded like the way maker was built is like all of these like widgets strung together that were like basically like code generated in evm excel assembly and like formally verified as like connecting correctly together it was it's like this beautiful monument um but it's also like it's like essentially the people who uh who built all of that moved on and like you're never going to see like sort of major changes uh to that code base one of the things that the gorick sort of smart contract environment is doing it's like safety properties it's extensibility your ability to like

naturally write asynchronous contracts and reason about asynchrony and failure modes and all this stuff is that we think we will be we expect that ist will be very extensible so you know with dydx coming to cosmos uh supporting interchain accounts you will be able to have positions on uh on like on on perpetual markets that you'll be able to use as collateral in you know with future ist upgrades you can have liquidation insurance provided by other parties we can liquidate potentially in the future on not just the native amm of agorik but on osmosis and other dexes that will exist the uh

the role of the amm can be swapped out with a vote of the build builders dow um so you know we could start out with this like uniswap v1 style uh liquidation mechanism and amm um there will you know people will bring new build new amms on top of the agoric platform uh those can eventually be swapped out so and that can have the same mechanisms with liquidations with the with the protocol holding liquidity there uh those are those all of that stuff can be integrated so my biggest concern relative to like all the other platforms is like agorak was built for this it was built for building these like extensible complex composable

uh multi-component defy ecosystem things and is designed to arrive allow like rapid development and rapid evolution uh relative to other things there is so much we don't know about how ibc will work in the future um and i think the agorak platform really allows us to build like a truly radical state-of-the-art stable coin um so just like dive a little bit more into the details of of of what it is that we've got here how does the liquidation work you have this oracle the oracle is plugin is uh the oracle is driving uh it's providing a continuous speed of asset prices i think we have another slide where i go a little bit more into

detail about how the oracle works um so you have the vault factory like think software factory object um you're putting assets in you get you get an individual vault you're continuously feeding into the oracle as the as the oracle prices drop eventually control over the vault is handed over to the liquidation mechanism where the liquidation mechanism is tries to liquidate as much as retire as much ist debt as possible that's essentially the model um people wonder like hey another question that like continuously comes up is oh like how can you back a stable coin uh with an asset that's very volatile um it isn't this the whole mechanism for stability

does not depend on stability of the underlying backing asset what it depends on is whether or not you can efficiently arbitrage a price the the discount that exists during liquidation so like can you retire ist from the system can you remove ist from the system faster than the then the uh uh can you remove ist from the system faster that like uh the price is falling and your the value of a collateral is flowing and this is why we think adam is a really good asset for this uh adam has traded on a lot of venues um you can be buying uh uh you know a well capitalized market maker uh can be buying uh discount atoms and selling them without actually having to transfer them

sort of instantaneously on multiple venues um so this should be a really robust mechanism for insuring stability in the event that that mechanism fails there's also this protocol reserve of assets that can continue to buy uh ist and retire ist from the system uh when collateral uh like prices are falling um this is the sort of a description of the mechanism of uh if you are staking build how do you participate in the system and it's basically that every user of the system is going to be paying you ist uh so again this the uh bld right now is an inflationary token uh there's like i

think roughly like five percent inflation right now on the agora chain um so there is is some uh agoric rewards we do expect that as the economy uh uh takes off eventually build rewards are gonna be sort of become less necessary and ist rewards from people using these systems will eventually take over uh but again ist is like this is like one of the advantages of having sort of a native enshrined stable coin uh is that you can like deeply work it into the crypto economics and the token of the system um and so you know if you hold build you should be very excited about the uh uh sort of launch of ist uh it is going to drive a lot of value and like allow you to earn stable coins for staking

um this is just uh again sort of reiterating the uh the mech the stability mechanism over collateralization liquidation price oracle that is going to bring in prices from a lot of different places um we have this reserve which is an initial capital allocation that it will actually be locked in the liquidity pools plus gas costs plus fees uh continuously growing the reserve as the platform grows and then also the build holders can sell build to build up uh the reserve as well we have an oracle network um the oracle network is probably it's still the thing that like i think

we have uh the most work to decentralized um we will have the builders the bill dao will like so right now currently elects a set of uh oracle network contributors they will constantly be pricing in usd the price of the collateral um we've sort of worked with a bunch of people who are sort of big operators of chain nodes um who are also sort of uh uh uh agorik validators um to ensure that we can like improve this it can be cont can be extended like we can we can add interchain queries and stuff like that so that you could financially get prices from like osmosis and other dexes to inform this in the future um and so node operators are are continuously submitting prices to an

aggregator um think very similar to like the the maker oracle uh has been the inspiration and then finally we have this like sort of two-tier governance system there is going to be a proposal soon for members of an economic committee who are going to be involved in uh tweaking some of the parameters in the system we've already announced a contract with gauntlet um to help inform this um and so they can they are both like sort of have direct control over these things like debt limits collateralization ratios and interest rates and they can also propose like larger changes to the system um but also like any cosmos chain or most cosmos chains we do have like

sort of token holder governance and so they elect the economic committee the add new collateral to the vaults you know if you think um you know if you think that your token should be there uh in the vault mechanism you know there's going to be this back and forth but with the economic community and the builders dow to sort of add new collateral system but it is expected to be dynamic um and then all of the code changes and upgrades especially in the early days when any new code that has to be deployed on agorac is going to require a full down vote um and then setting the reward weights adding new liquidation mechanisms so how do you get involved um we have uh uh we have a lot

that we are looking for the uh sort of ibc and cosmos community to get involved in um we are looking for alternate front ends um there are probably a few technical milestones that are like that before that like really uh but like should be soon before you can really do it um if you think about how liquidations are going to be working you can see how mev is going to play a really strong role in this and sort of the naive sort of cosmos mempool is not going to get us uh to where we want to be in terms of the stability and security this platform when you have people where you have these time localized events i.e the price of atoms just went down 30 percent now you have

people racing to uh uh short you know to add uh collateral to their vaults to re to or pay down their ist death and then you have liquidation starting and people racing to arb the liquidations um so we need sort of a next generation mempool all of this mev stuff that like people like mecca tech and skip are working on is going to be incredibly valuable uh to this ecosystem and then as i said like all of this code is all open source the parity stability module the decks the vaults we are looking for contributors um if you are a market maker or just a whale there's going to be a lot of opportunity to participate in this arbitrage system

uh we're looking for people to write tools for this we have this like uh event coming up called the economic stress test which please reach out to me where we're going to be like sort of simulating how does all the software perform under different volatility conditions and giving people the test opportunity to test out we might run this continuously even after we go into production um if you're bridges we're looking for all of the people who are building uh bridges to to be uh participating in our collateral onboarding process um and to move ist beyond the ibc ecosystem and then you know we are very excited about sort of order books delta neutral stable coins uh building on top of perps building on top of all the new d5 primitives uh that are coming to cosmos

so i believe uh that is it um so we have these we we have been embracing the ice tea time the ice tea ist i i see meme for us the twitter account is in our protocol uh we do we've been doing relatively regular community chats but we are uh excited to do this uh you know we're pretty hopeful that we'll be live for cosmoverse that's what we're hoping for um this is uh continues to be like sort of our overwhelming uh position as an engineering community and then we have uh inter.trade is sort of the first website sort of describing the protocol and we have the intro

protocol twitter account uh and we have a discord chat uh all these things are pretty active at this point uh but really excited about more community uh participation uh please reach out to me uh and this i think is going to be like one of the biggest things for adam utility going forward and so really excited to bring more people into the community [Applause] i can do a few questions or people can go to lunch depends how hungry everyone is any questions uh

okay let's try this so one question about stable coins i assume that there are going to be some steroids that are going to be lost so in the final there's like some deflation in that what do you think about that if really or the amount of ester cons can be like block or no well you expect the amount of ist to like be variable over time right like as demand for like leverage goes up like people want more leverage on you know either people are like hey i have like a lot of ad you know my atoms are way up i want to buy house or yacht or whatever they'll they'll you know the go and

issue a bunch of ist like one of the reasons why i think this kind of stable coin has become such a key piece of like the defy ecosystem is because it gives you this like instantaneous access to leverage whereas in any traditional like lending protocol you have this time mismatch between like the borrower is there but the lender doesn't exist or the lender is there but the borrower doesn't exist and so you either have idle capital or you have insufficient capital to meet demand and you have this cont and like it takes time for the capital move when you have a stable coin protocol like this yes it in some sense is it's less capital efficient but like you don't have this time problem where you can immediately get access to uh leverage

and so this is what i expect is like i think you expect to see like and you see this with maker this like fluctuation in the amount of diet that's out there it just like goes with basically like how long everyone is on the protocol cool anyone else so the question from tom was uh why build on top of agora instead of someone else somewhere else and i think this is the this is the this is the key key piece right which is cosmos sdk cosmosome none of these things were really designed as like as the as these like lego building

infrastructure where you have this like complex protocol that is made up of many interwoven subparts that have to that like are are linked in this like complex world and then like also designed to work with like all of the asynchrony um that comes from the ibc world um i think like building a liquidation mechanism for instance that like operates over inner chain accounts and like liquidates uh uh that is like that is like liquidating with uh over interchain accounts that is talking to like a cosmos smart contract somewhere else having like this kind of asynchrony friendly easy to reason about uh control plane that like is both secure and extensible it's like to me this is like the the the

the true stress test of the agora platform and like if the igori platform can do this it can actually do all the other things that we imagine it'll be able to do which is basically allow us to build like sort of next generation defy yeah absolutely so um i on it i expect that like liquid as the like liquid staking market matures with quicksilver and stride and uh and like lido and all these things as soon as we sort of get the the liquid staking stuff uh uh figured out

eventually the dominant form of collateral is probably gonna be the liquid staked assets um uh and not not not the native assets but one of the things that you need is you need arp to exist and so that requires liquid markets for those assets to evolve over the next couple of years indeed right yeah yeah and like everything about the way the software architecture is built means that you could be like hey like there's a str there's cash flow coming to my uh liquid staked asset so that my vault is like sort of self-repaying right um and that this is like why again like to like loop back why this is

like why agoric like why do this this way is because like the economic components that like we're going to keep building on top of like don't exist yet and with every every other way of doing this it's going to be like yes you could like build this like kava like you know system uh on top of on top of cosmos and then if you want to change anything you have to replace the whole thing right and you get all of the risks that come with like making these like large risk these large changes the idea of if you look at the ist code right now everything is like nicely abstracted and componentized so it's like oh i want to have a new kind of vault that has this like self-repaying mechanism interacts with

ibc and according to this api and can be like my quicksilver app you know my q atom my q osmo et cetera are going to be paying off that asset um you just are creating a new vault you don't have to touch the rest of the code there's like a defined vault interface and it's not like you know and it's just like like go was not intended for doing anything like this rust is also not intended for doing anything like this um you know so that and like you know mark miller and dean and all have spent like the last in you know dan connolly and all have spent the last 40 years turning javascript into the environment to do this and so we have the pieces to do this um and i think

this is like again this is like why you do it this way um ltv yeah it's going to be something on the neighborhood of like one to five percent it's you know basically we have to estimate like what the rate of growth of the ist ecosystem is and what we expect future isd cash flows are because you don't really want to be like taking because like you have some term at which you're like you're expecting the like

you can't unlock your bld if you're doing bld boost you can't on stake until you're until your debt is paid but like you still you don't want people taking like 30-year pld mortgages right you want it's like a year is like roughly what you're looking at cool any other questions thank you very much thank you for your patience everyone have one [Music]

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morning oh [Music]

okay i hope you all had a very nice lunch break we're a little bit behind the schedule but yeah just slightly uh we will now continue with the keynote held by adrian brink from enormous so the stage is yours cool all right i can use this okay fantastic how's everyone doing great okay i i'm glad to see that at least some people made it back from lunch um i think the rest is surprise either still confused or still eating on whether the talks are starting again okay can we switch back to this yes great uh okay thank you very much for coming i'm adrian um

i'm one of the co-founders of anoma and really in a nutshell anoma is a unified architecture for full stack decentralized applications and today i'll sort of spend this talk to go over what this means what intent centric design means how this matters why everyone is currently converging on this kind of architecture but not in a generalized fashion um since we had a i'll give you a little background sort of on anoma and myself and the team because this is a cosmos event so i joined cosmos or tendermint uh in early 2017 i was one of the first co-protocol engineers this is also where i met my two current co-founders we built up one of the very first

proof-of-stake validators for cosmos called cryptium labs luckily we're out of this game and someone else has to deal with infrastructure if you're running valde you know what i mean cool i'll do a brief historic recap here on sort of the evolutions of protocols that we have seen um and how we got to where we are today so and i'm using a very different delineation than i think most people use for thinking of evolutions of protocols so the first generation was bitcoin and gave us scriptable settlement right and with crypto scriptable settlement we could build cryptocurrencies we could build things like colored coins we could build things like namecoin uh which coincidentally actually namecoin wasn't

built on top of bitcoin but rather on a fork of the bitcoin core client but so back in 2008 until like 2013 people try to be as expressive as possible within the constraints of scriptable settlement on bitcoin as a result of the limitations of scriptable settlement we eventually got to the second generation which was programmable settlement and all of a sudden we could move away from colored coins and have esc 20s and we could move away from coin and get ens and actually vitalik talks about this in the ethereum white paper which is sort of the predominant reason why ethereum came about was you know to

overcome the limitations that scriptable settlement offered or had on bitcoin the very nice thing though is that we not only got the applications that so if we knew back in the day we wanted to build on bitcoin and we made them slightly more efficient we got a whole host of new applications that weren't possible to be built on scriptable settlement like we got daos we got nfts we for some reason now have solar on tokens um we got like private voting we got batch or like we got these auction protocols to run the early icos and the early fundraisers right so something i think no one imagined when they like when ethereum early on came out but now we have all these very cool

applications that we can build with this but there are also limitations to programmable settlement because it's not everything that you need so if you look at sort of some of the modern applications like dexes amms nft marketplaces like openc they all work but again they work in a clunky fashion they are very specific trade-offs where generally speaking you get at least one centralized web 2 component in the stack and so for example when you think of openc right what does a user do in openc a user signs a message sends it to a specific web 2 server run by the openc company which then aggregates a bunch of these

signed messages does some compute then the server does some compute and then the end result is settled on ethereum this is true also when you look at xerox when you look at kaoswap it's always this pattern a user assigns a thing has to send it to a central server central server does some compute and then ends up settling executing the sort of resulting state changes on some other system i have to say and because most people use different delineations and scriptable settlement program and programmable settlement um we've made a ton of advances on programmable settlement but i would call them different colors of like slightly different colored versions of ethereum right we've made advances in proof of stake we've now have a bunch of

scaling solutions using roll-ups whether optimistic or zero knowledge we got advances in privacy we i mean everyone i worked on tendermint back in the day like we have massive advances in consensus with tournament avalanche and maybe at some point these two single start finale we'll see but fundamentally they're all programmable settlement right like when you what near offers in comparison to let's say ethereum is like it's a different color it's like a slightly faster vm it's a slightly more sharded vm at this point but it's still exactly the same application model that's just programmable settlement and this is the important part settlement is not sufficient settlement is sufficient if the parties

already know who they are what they want and with whom to coordinate but many apps actually need infrastructure for counterparty discovery because generally speaking most individuals don't innately know with whom they should be trading bitcoin you need to find have some sort of way to discover which counterparties you can trade with you can settle with um and also you need help agreeing with those kind of parties on exactly what you want to settle this is true for marketplaces where you have buyers and sellers this is true for quadratic public goods funding where you have actually many more parties involved with project projects donors and funders is true for dows this is also true for roll-ups right when you actually think what a roll-up does is

a user signs a message message they send it to a central server that central server does some compute and then that that compute gets settled on some underlying programmable settlement system uh this is true for optimism this is super stark net and and currently everyone builds this as completely isolated stacks as in the intents that people sign for optimism or the intensive people sign for openc or starknet aren't composable anymore they are application specific and they're centralized right so what actually contemporary approaches to counterparties to this problem of counterparty discovery well you can do an amm in the amm world the unisop contract on ethereum becomes

the central counterpart discovery point you can also do an on-chain order book that all these approaches are expensive because you're spending gas to get a globally ordered set of transactions even though you probably don't need that and they're kind of silly because you're fundamentally rate limited how fast you can do this because you have to set up everything in consensus the second approach is you do the single operator centralized database openc does the xerox does this flashbots actually also does this where a user signs the thing they send to the flashbot server the flashbot server does some compute and then submits it on chain we start to see some more app specific sovereign chains to this like dydx is a good example here but again the problem is this is a lot

of work and there's still trade-offs where now you just have a slightly faster consensus you still don't have the right abstraction because what you actually want to express is that people don't have transactions they have intense and intents are partial in their nature in nature right like i don't have all the state to craft a full state transition i have like the intent that i have a bitcoin and i want some ether and zero bitcoin that's an intent and i need some counterparty discovery and this is like true for most things that blockchains are currently used so this is true for all of trading this is true for all of voting effectively this is true for auctions right so with this i want to talk about the third generation of protocols um which is our noma in my mind a norma is

unified architecture for full stack decentralized applications and now that i've sort of gone over the history here i think you can start to get what i mean so enormous it's an architecture for um intent centric privacy it's an intense and privacy preserving protocol for decentralized counterparty discovery solving an atomic multi-chain settlement i won't talk too much about the atomic multi-chain settlement isaac gave a talk earlier about how you can use typhon to use camaro chains to get on-demand charting if you're interested in that kind of stuff check it out it allows you to do very cool things like have

atomic settlement between two sovereign chains so if the best example i can always come up with is imagine that the new york stock exchange has one decentralized blockchain and the london stock exchange is another and with atomic multi-chain settlement you can do like a conditional 100 billion dollar trade on both exchanges at the same time but today i really want to focus on the first part which is intent centric intense centricity and counterparty discovery and solving so anoma follows two key design principles the first one is intent centricity and the second one is homogeneous architectures heterogeneous security so what does intent centricity mean it means that users express what they want

and not how to get it and so the easiest way to think about this right now is that when a user well when a user authorizes a transaction in ethereum what they they don't authorize a specific state change they don't authorize what they want they authorize a virtual machine to run some compute to maybe get them what they want but effectively a transaction on ethereum authorizes a execution trace and users have to reason through the entire execution trace to understand what it actually results in this is the reason why you can have exploits using proxy contracts because if you end up calling a broken contract or you have some a broken contract has

somewhat the ability to inject itself into your execution trace you end up in a scenario where that contract can make arbitrary state changes to your account because as a user you never authorized exactly what state change you're okay with you authorize which execution trace to take and so intents are really binding programmatic commitments to state preferences the simplest example is that you can say that i can't that you currently have one bitcoin and you're willing to have zero bitcoin if you have a hundred eth right this is sort of a very trivial uh limit order but you express exactly what state you want to end up with rather than expressing how to compute your resulting state

and intents are fully programmatic as in they're just arbitrary code and state they are not limited to specific order formats when you think of something like 0x or openc there's like a specific format and you can only express that specific intent uh in the enormous architecture intents are you can kind of think of them as they're evaluated at runtime so it's just arbitrary code that runs in order to verify whether um your state changes have been met there's also an intent gossip network that is not consensus critical as in different participants in the network can have different views of the state of the network

this way you can have 100 million intents floating around the system different participants in the network can subscribe to different intents um as in like topic-based subscriptions where maybe someone is only interested in trading large sizes of bitcoin orders maybe some other people are only interested in the private sector second price auctions and i mean i'm not talking about the economics here but there can also be uh economic incentives to keep gossiping intents that prevent liquidity from being broken apart because if you don't have this you always end up you often end up in a scenario where different gossip notes don't want to gossip onwards the intense because they think they um sort of benefit from

holding it all for themselves then you have solvers and solvers look at 100 million intents or a subset of them and try to find compatible intents for example in this bitcoin ether example this can be that someone has exactly the inverse so someone if your intent is that you are willing to sell one bitcoin against 100 ether and someone has the exact inverse that they are willing to sell 100 eth against one bitcoin those would be compatible and then a solver would look at this and go oh these two intents are compatible let me create a transaction submit it but this can also be that you have a hundred intents that together form a valid transaction where

maybe you have a hundred individual counterparties that are willing to trade a portion of a bitcoin for some eth right and this is the very important thing intents are composable um as in different applications will have different intents but as a solver you can reason through all of them and so instead of having a specific intent that just works with openc you can have intents that work with openc and also 0x and when solvers look at this they can take all these kind of different intents and compose them in settlement chain and yeah then transactions are settled on the settlement layer on the solver part this is most likely an np-hard problem to build a generalized solver so most likely as a solver you should pick some subset that

you want to optimize for whether this be fundable talking trading trading or like the voting intents or the like nft intents um and this kind of architecture is necessary to enable decentralized counterparty discovery and this is what the majority of mainstream dapps are starting to realize because everyone is trying to build this kind of counterparty discovery service except that everyone currently builds this as a centralized web 2 server that is completely non-composable with what everyone else is doing and this leads to a declarative paradigm for dapps where instead of authorizing execution traces of how smart contracts are allowed to change your state you authorize the state changes first and then the system

can figure out what is the best way for the system to get you to your desired end state as a result you get a very nice black box architecture from a user site a user only has to author and submit an intent then magic happens where the system figures out how do you best satisfy the sort of desired state changes in a user intent tries to optimize that as many people get settled as possible and afterwards users just need to check that the state has been updated that their intent was actually set launching which coincidentally is i think what most people have as a mental model for when they interact with blockchains

i think when someone trades on unisop some ease for die they don't think that they are authorizing an entire smart contract called stack to do arbitrary things and that they need to verify what every single instruction does the mental model that people have is that trading like some state some die for eth right um but an anama really or an intense centric architecture like anoma allows for the so intuition that people have to match the reality what's happening in the system so i won't go through the entire thing this is sort of the over art arching architecture of inoma um i'll very briefly run through this i'll skip over a bunch of the privacy stuff um

there are different talks we had a talk yesterday two days ago about tiger is the unified execution environment so this should be online as well and chris will give a talk at zcon if anyone here is going to zcon about the unified execution environment so the first component is this box on the left which is decentralized counterparty discovery here users can write intents that could be transparent shielded or private as a result intents include the desired state changes maybe they include some zero knowledge proofs as well those intents are then submitted to intent gossip notes intent gossip notes gossip these intents around they can begin an arbitrary number this is not limited as in

consensus critical messages that need to be globally ordered there can be 100 billion of them and if you don't want to see some of them you can just not subscribe to that specific intent or that specific topic or that specific class of intent solvers look at the subset of intents that they're interested in if you're very good at building np-hard algorithms you can probably write a generalized solver and you then could look at all intents and try to find optimal computational results um but generally solvers will look at a subset of intents once they found a set of composable intents and this could for example be that i am willing to trade east for bitcoin someone else is willing to trade

um bitcoin for atoms and the third person is willing to trade atoms for eth or bitcoin whatever completes the cycle um those three intents would be composable a solver can take them combine them into a transaction um the important thing here is at that point solver before someone submits a transaction they encrypted against the public key of the system uh we are using fervor here as our distributed key generation protocol it's a shared public key that is controlled by the valve data set that allows us to only have encrypted transactions in the mempool as a result none of the transactions are front runnable because they're they are hidden from sort of the general view

then now we come into this consensus box so the transaction mempool only contains encrypted transactions uh validators take these encrypted transactions they put them into blocks they can't inject their own trades into this they can't front run background or sandwich people here um proposals propose blocks of encrypted transactions in the next block um the value i said jointly starts decrypting those transactions but the ordering is already fixed so they again can't front-run you there anymore the way this actually works is this requires abci plus plus in order to get something called vote extensions um to make the entire decryption step happening this is why we

are very interested in implementing abc i plus plus intended core right now we have a finalized block uh all transactions are decrypted oh the decryption step also follows the same bft threshold so any two-thirds of the valdez i can decrypt which means that no individual value can decrypt those transactions either yeah and then we go to the execution environment and here the interesting thing is this execution environment can actually be on many different systems uh this could be on you could like use ethereum as an execution environment you can use um a normalized execution environment this is sort of i'm coming to this in a sec with regards to heterogeneous uh homogeneous

architectures heterogeneous security right homogeneous architecture heterogeneous security protocols benefit massively from everyone agreeing on the same protocol this is why ibc is great for example because if we all agree on the same interoperability standard we can just use the same underlying protocols and this is actually fine because everyone wins just by agreeing on the same protocol even if you could write a slightly better implementations um like the losses you're taking on are marginal in this case uh homogeneous architectures are what makes phones great because my phone that i bought in europe works in north america

and it works in asia because we've agreed on the cellular backbone protocol and there's a homogeneous protocol on my phone can just roam between these different systems however security domains aren't benevolent monopolies they can charge you rent they can steal your money different people may have different requirements for what they would consider secure for example some of us may consider that the cosmos hub is the most secure security zone and we want to have all our security to be derived from cosmos hub a bunch of other people last week or this week earlier this week probably consider ethereum to be the most secure settlement there and they want to have all their security derived from ethereum i would probably argue that most people in the real world care about their local communities being able

to control their security i think my parents would feel much more comfortable if like their local city guarantees them their security for their financial transactions and their blockchains the important point is not that we need to pick the important point is as long as we agree on protocols every user can pick their own security model and they can decide to opt into either global cosmos hub or ethereum security model or they can opt into a local security model um so yeah we get a lot of benefits from separating protocols and architectures from the security model as a result with the this kind of with the enormous architecture you get different deployment patterns you can apply this as a sovereign l1 you can deploy this as a community operated chain by your local village in

switzerland you can employ this as an l one and a half if you just want to decentralize a specific dap or l2 on ethereum where you just use the intent gossip and solving part you can apply this in l2 where all of your security is derived from from a different blockchain this the l2 deployment would most likely be the shared security deployment with the cosmos hub yep so then in one in the first case you only use the intent gospel network and you sequence and settle elsewhere in the second case you use i know what to decentralize not only the intent gossip but also the solving or you can use it to decentralize specific dapps and the last example is sort of everyone deploys this as their own server another

one right dabs are not so what components do they actually have they have intent formats which describe what users actually submit and there will be some standards but they're not encoded in the protocol on how do you form these intents so that solvers can easily figure out and look at many different intents to be able to compute over them there are solver algorithms which take specific intents and try to find optimal solutions for them and then there are validity predicates which enforce settlement and variance for example for bridged assets you have the invariant that if you have abridged an asset the system you're currently on can't create extra of these assets so for example if you're sending bitcoin around your settlement variant is that the

transaction can't create or destroy bitcoin um it can just make sure that it moves from the from different accounts to other people um yeah and this kind of vertical integrated architecture architecture means that you get engine security guarantees liveness oh liveness and privacy guarantees and the really cool thing is that you don't get vendor lock-in because you can take your applications and roam across different security domains which is what happens in the real world at the moment like when i fly to the states my phone now roams from my european security domain into the north american security domain uh this is incredibly convenient this is also kind of what like how passports work people roam from different security guarantees security

domains but with a homogeneous architecture okay oh well two minutes uh right what can you build with a normal so these are examples of existing dapps that you can build but with full stack decentralization you can use a nomad to or the anonymous architecture to decentralize things like 0x and kawswap to decentralize openc or to build very capital-efficient amps you can also use them to decentralize roll-ups or things like public goods funding which i think the people in the back will have a hard time seeing it's at the bottom here um generally speaking a normal generalizes this architecture which everyone has which is you need decent horse counterpart discovery solving as well as programmable settlement

but just as i mentioned in the beginning when we went from ethereum from bitcoin to ethereum later on we realized that there are a bunch of novel applications that we can probably you build on top of ethereum that we didn't even think of when we upgraded from ethereum to bitcoin and in the same sense i expect that there will be a lot of novel applications that people come up with over time that can be built on a noma that we aren't currently even thinking about one of those things is something like private dials where the votes are private but the results are transparent the other one is private auctions you actually need fairview for this for programmable threshold decryption where you keep all bits private until you have all the bits in and then you do the revelation all at the same time without new bits being able to be

submitted this is how you implement um trustless second price auctions um yup you can build something like private games i i think the thing i'm most excited about is multi multi-party multivariate private bartering the idea that we don't really need to have base money anymore if we can just all barter directly with each other and we can have 100 million intense and all these intents are composable against each other so you can take 100 million intense and everyone gets what they want if they net out in the end oh and you can have on demand or runtime roll ups because what is a rollup effectively a rollup is a netting out of state changes so if i have an intent and someone else has an internet the third person has an

intent and this only results in a tiny state change on the underlying system you can just run these as like intense just compose as runtime rollups um for now this is like very different because no one has intense and everyone builds these like very specific applications but once you generalize this pattern you just get these kind of kinds of things yep anoma is built by helix atmospherics if you want to check it out we have t-shirts upstairs and i think there is a non-public version of the white paper still there so if you want to find the white paper check that out as well yeah anoma a unified architecture for full stack decentralization thank you very much [Applause]

thank you adrian um for questions you can find me later yeah because i'm out of time sorry find the schedule um and um yeah i think you will be around i guess so um the next keynote is actually a very interesting one because it's um held by sorry vasily shapovalov he is the cto of p2p and he will introduce us to neutron the very first project that will leverage interchange security governance proposal 72 passed very recently and kicked off this development so here you go yeah this one

i have to and yeah i think i'll manage so i have the same 25 minutes right yeah okay okay okay okay um so how do i click it there yeah okay i think it downloaded already we'll have wait for a few minutes while

the deck is downloading still beautiful [Applause] um i think i'll start without the slides and we'll pick up the slides when they end right i'll ask you to put it on right when downloads

okay um so um folks asked me to hurry because we're running late a bit so um i'm vasilishapavalov cto of p2p and i'm going to talk about neutron the chain to be secured by a cosmos hub using interchange security that is going to be um permissionless smart contract platform that leverages cosmos and ibc primitives to be the their chain to deploy the interchain application the glue for the interchange [Music]

the story of neutron is we try to find a like a blockchain like this that would be very secure in economical sense and would have the um no hassle-free deployment for cosmos smart contracts for project that can be on the cosmos hub umbrella would be maximally aligned with cosmos hub but chain like this doesn't exist so yeah one second chain links doesn't exist so that's what we had to start making to make one

okay yeah okay uh so we are in p2p uh like uh cosmo soji we um started with a validation with genesis we participated in game of stakes and we were one of the winners the game of zones also winners there and there is nothing more exciting for me in cosmic system that making atom useful so i think it's a great development um so yeah we wanted the chain that would be aligned with cosmos hub but would allow us to make interchange [Music]

enabled protocols and we asked the community uh using the proposal 72 that was controversial for a bit but then passed with uh great success and a lot of engagement which i can thank all of you for for so that is that was very energizing and we're making the permission smart control platform that will have state-of-the-art interchange capabilities and the security of cosmos hub which is very exciting for me um the basic idea is that the chain itself the the interchange you have done of neutron will

what it will do it will allow it uh the smart contracts applications to deploy but it won't host any like in any enshrined applications uh it will help a permission smart contract platform uh and it will have state like the the bleeding edge ibc uh uh standards like for for now that's like interchange accounts interchange queries that are connected to cosmos so you can actually iterate on them using the smart platform and it's it's all secured by cosmos cosmos hub [Music] so uh why

like people would want to use this uh why why it's important uh why it's why not deploy your own zone like many other dice and kasparoka system that's basically the premise of cosmos system to like roll up your own blockchain that's what people do here right so the gist of it is cosmos sdk zones are more powerful you can do a lot of more stuff with it like you can hack on p2p layer like kanoma here is doing like right you can hack up uh heck on validated us like terra was doing this with oracles that were working validators cover was also doing this with validators

and uh you can add additional responsibilities to them like thought chain through chain that uh makes validators also the like shots of cast off of the centralized cast idea that uh handle the money basically um and you've got your result environment that protects for clogging by the applications and you've got like full sovereignty but like what you lose actually smart contracts development is like 10 times faster it's easier to pump out code test code share code you have better tooling you

have better development experience like you have cheaper maintenance because you don't have to maintain a blockchain you have only to maintain a smart contract which is like in some cases it's zero maintenance when the smart contract is immutable and for uh many smart characters platform the default model is synchronous environment where all contracts can work with each other and that is like great for compassibility you have seen this on the room to play out as a great uh driver for success of uh slice finance uh digitalized composible protocols etc and cosmos has place for all of it

so you need high customization you need high sovereignty you have and you have basically resources to make it happen you reload your own chain you are not sure that you'll have resources for it you want to test things out uh you want more compatibility uh you want less expenses you roll out on a smart contract platform because it's cheaper to start and then if it's if you want to do it you can uh rule out your own chain later or you can stay here um and what we are doing here is making this

smart control platform very much interchange capable we're connecting the interchange accounts with the smart contracts so like uh interchange accounts are basically uh uh like telekinesis for the blockchains uh you've got a zone and you've got a different zone and one like the zone one can trigger the actions on zone two like whatever transaction it wants basically and it's represented by a ghost on the other chain like the uh ghost hand which is sort of like a virtual account and we allow smart contracts to have as many virtual accounts on other chains they want

um that allow them to act in the inter chain uh according to the like programmed rules on the blockchain of neutron that can be made much more safer than like a custodial approach [Music] and we're working on interchange queries which are like a bit more harder technically um the risk of it you when you have a abc connection to other blockchain you can read parts of its state and prove they are correct and that allows you to query state of the blockchain you can query for example

the like the current balance of the code you can query the uh the delegations of your account you can query if the transaction you did with interchange accounts was the success or it did fail for some reason so you can communicate with other blockchains and you can understand what's happening on them and these two options allow folks to have uh protocols that um basically do interchange stuff as many blockchains algorithmically and very transparently so it's

not the simplest thing technically like you need to basically transfer a lot of data from one blockchain into other user layers and reconstruct this data in a readable form by re-implementing the logic of one blockchain another but it's possible and it's very handy so imagine for example the the protocol that for some reason needs price price heat and a zone that provides robust price hits like band or something and uh without enriching queries a request is sent from one zone to another

it is replied on the other dawn and sent back using ibc uh and in like in between the the like the threshold for query should be reached which also takes some time and it's high latency it takes like in the best case it takes like half a minute or so uh and if with interchange queries when you need to query price for example on the band again or on osmosis or like whatever wherever you want to solve the price for uh the smart contracts basically puts up a request relay immediately picks it up and release the data from the other blockchain the one round trip less

basically and it's validated by uh by the smart contract that treats the query it's like half of mass latency and uh more universal basically you don't need a specialized oracle blockchain to read prices and it's all running on the cosmos hub umbrella so basically it's secured by cosmos hub it's got a virtual cycle so like interchange security makes cosmos hub makes neutron more economically secure than like basically most other uh places and cosmos most hot zones cosmos

and neutron shares a fee income with cosmos hub so adoption neutron drives revenue to the hub makes it more valuable and makes that makes neutral more secure that's a virtual cycle so what's next for us we want to like run neutron we want people to deploy neutron to make uh this analytics exchanges yield strategies like cross-chain yield strategies aggregators for uh for trading on cross-chain the liquid stake in protocols any nft marketplace any fantastic products you can build the dow toolkits uh like interchange dolls

will be a thing right so we want folks to build it um so like we were asked a lot if there like there will be a token and the answer is yeah um we don't have a final uh version of uh what's uh what the exact design here will be um but that's what i think right now i think we're going to be uh to run with uh v model where the uh the token for the neutron that is provisionally make named rhino [Music]

will be having some like gunners power over economics of neutron like it will be uh used for um uh funneling emissions of uh of rhino to the project that to the gold that can be anything from liquidity incentives to like common goods uh receivers to like funding of the development to like whatever basically whatever governance thinks his guests is good it also helps have some uh some revenue from fees and some voting power in the minimized guns or neutron

that's can be changed right so that's not set in stone um and the transaction fees uh i think uh should be split with uh between burning the like buying and burning the arena token uh getting some uh rewards from uh um from fees to varinas takers and uh some of that should be transformed to stables in the treasury um one thing we we want to discuss the community the initial proposal had the all fees on uh neutron b patent atom maybe there is a better way like the

fist paid and whatever and swap to adam but we'll find out so if you're interested if you want to uh build on neutron if you're interested in newton if you want to be on the team or learn more or support us uh please reach out we've got like the contacts laid out for you um and i think that's it [Applause] thank you so much uh vaseli i think the other two panelists are not here already so i think we have time for one question

if there's one question in the room hi how do you plan on competing with other smart contract platforms such as juno terra secret um so i think that two parts that makes uh neutron like stand out a bit here is uh cosmos hub security which is really important and for for many like very like sensitive security applications uh if we like if we have the same like security as cosmos hub in economical sense it's basically like 10 times more

than uh than juna at the time so uh that matters so to to some people and the commitment to like bleeding edge uh inter-chain capabilities for smart contracts uh the self-contained uh blockchains uh will have hard time like the smart cardboard platform will have hard time to find a niche in the market but like very interchange-enabled is a new thing and it's it will have new new protocols on it that haven't been uh that can't be built by basically on the uh legging smart control platforms here

so um yeah that's it thank you any more questions because we're still waiting for the other two panelists okay thank you vasily thank you for coming it's gonna extend now hi nice to see you again

limited set okay okay so we are ready the next panel will be held by my german friend felix lutz from course one um and they will talk about the future of d5 whether whether it will be multi-chain or not enjoy

thank you hello everyone yeah i'm felix luch from chorus one uh we're a staking provider in the cosmos ecosystem and other ecosystems and i'm joined today by some ogs in the d5 space to discuss um you know what is the future for defy in the cosmos ecosystem and especially like the interchange ecosystem unfortunately we also supposed to had mark here he was on ravi yesterday and going too hard and can make it we're not sure um but um luckily we have uh the other panelists here so i'm gonna start just by like introducing uh or letting you introduce yourselves right uh maybe let's start with sean from mecca tech uh hi sean welcome on the panel and like maybe tell us a little

bit about how you were engaged in the cosmos defy ecosystem right now sure yeah my name is uh sean braithwaite and i'm the ceo of mecca tech where we work on interchange block space markets so trying to like redo how mempools work and how uh cross-chain interactions will happen awesome thanks and yeah julian yeah so my name is uh jordan butler i'm involved in a few different projects i've founded a fusion project like state doubts also it's uh we accumulate governance tokens and um we it's a kind of a wealth management mechanism for for asset that you have in your portfolio so maximize your your yield

rate news uh it's the uh deep uh dark side of the ecosystem where we analyze and study uh what whatever happened in the defy space blackpool the h fund for nft uh we are one of the biggest leader in the space we invest and we also have an esport vertical we make those assets at work state capital is the um family office and we have a crown side so we also do like uh validation staking liquidations market making arbitrage and name them uh yeah that's it yeah i think that was a great background i think also like maybe to double click a little bit on you sean uh can you talk a little bit more about um how you're engaged in the cosmos

defeca ecosystem today how did you come to build the project you're building right now right okay so i used to work at the icf as an engineer on tendermint core and uh and then we kind of split off and did informal so we started like this verification and development which was like the biggest development org in cosmos at a time maybe it's different now but it was it was back then and i stepped in as a cto there we shipped ibc so i worked on the the like client and protocol specs and you know a range of things a range of things and uh i guess one of the issues we had working within that that that icf grant

structure that it was there was a lot of things that we wanted to do to tendermint that we couldn't do um so we wanted to like stop tendermint being like a holistic thing we want to split into libraries and maybe like redo the gossip player one like change gossip we didn't like how gossip was done and uh yeah it didn't seem to work in that um configuration let's say so like myself my co-founder uh alex zimmer we we kind of started our own company to take another whack and look at different ways that we could sort of align economically with that kind of work so we could hire you know really really high-end people and renumerate them well and the short answer that was mav you know it seemed like that was that was going well when we started the company and it started to become like a dominant source

of revenue it seemed to be where a lot of stuff was happening so we tried to think of a way that we could make that so flows of capital much better governed and like how do you how do you balance incentives when you have like overlapping preferences between relayers and full invalidators searchers hedge funds passive active liquidity like it isn't clear that our current block space markets like have those kind of facilities we want to build that so we started mecca tech awesome thanks so much yeah we're gonna like dive into that a little bit later for sure i think you know julian you mentioned a lot of your projects and obviously you were around in a lot of ecosystems you're like one of the early d5 people in a way with curve with a lot

of other things and also early in the cosmos actually like many people maybe don't know but yeah say capital is a validator and always been there so i think i'm it's i'm very curious to hear how you um kind of see the cosmos ecosystem the default ecosystem compared to other things and and where where it stands right now yeah it's um well times time passes very very quick remember we did a game of steak so we uh uh back then when um multi-chain was not a thing and that was only ethereum and bitcoin and uh well the rest of the community there was no defined um so like chorus one and figment and other guys were like pretty small

companies like we're involving tasers and uh cosmos i remember like there was this competition game game of steak we spent a year and a half two years our time and there was no concept of money back then so it was just like purely investing time and resources and capital and energy and more importantly at the time it was pretty painful but it's kind of how did the space change uh it's pretty attaching and congratulations on ibc because back then it was like the concept of ibc but people were like no this will come in 15 years 20 years never never happened well it's a massive piece of work so congrats on that yeah so

the question was more like the situation of all different chains together yeah like just like d5 in cosmos right uh obviously that's kind of the core of the infrastructure yeah so i think it's um in the cosmos and tinder means and then the consensus mechanism of ibc what i see the ecosystem of cosmos is the ability to easily uh power a few different uh ideas and projects in the ecosystem rather than um for example in polkadot or in ethereum uh cosmos is it's the sdk of cosmos the the uh the project the ecosystem of cosmos is super easy to build and boost up a project and that connecting those projects between each other in uh by a hub having hub

but then bridging across different multiple different chains like evm compatible and and so i see cosmos as potentially the and that's the vision i think in uh to be the hub of connecting all the different blockchain together yeah yeah super cool thanks and um i guess if you think about the role this big role of cosmos like obviously we have to somehow get there and do you need like projects actually building on it and maybe uh one way to look at it would be to kind of question what is actually lacking in the cosmos ecosystem to kind of make this a reality uh in your opinion maybe whoever wants to start um

i think it's i'm not sure if it's something i should say but i think it's still like the uh cryptonomics behind the atom concept because if cosmos the vision is to really like empower projects at the end the token economics of the project is more important than the rest of the economy such as the atom so the token economics of of the atom is bad right but did that stop cosmos from expanding well expanding um the disappointing like how do you uh gouge expansion compared to ethereum for example like in the uh billions of u.s dollars being traded a year um if cosmos is fast and cheap why not more project for example like curve

like avi like uh that's my point it's like there's a there's a paradox between saying the change is already alive and and people can go there and and have access to free transaction and super fast transactions but right now so that i totally agree with you like people should pay for people should pay for re-layers the validity of revenue is terrible on most chains like zero transaction fees like funded by inflation as a bad economic model for sustained growth and i think like this market cycle really revealed that but i think the point that i was making is that like one of the key things i would say the key thesis of cosmos is about sovereignty is about things like not being dependent about like limiting coordination even between economic systems so like terra

got up to like a billion dollars a day in volume without any coordination from cosmos from the from atoms right that's my point yeah there was no interesting value of the project creating value back to the token atom that's uh that's completely disconnected there's no correlation dichot correlation you can have the most successful project on cosmos and actually not used atom and that's that's the thing it's like at the end a project that is so successful can actually be and become the token economics of the chain i personally i think that's a great thing i think that you're not tied to the monetary regime of atoms as you're developing cosmos i think that's very important but vastly just for like just talked about neutron which is going to be secured by atoms so

i think that's going to be the that's where it's going to start to accrue value like i think that was always the plan to sort of like not not charge tax for as long as possible in cosmos was very very important to uh to go into market versus an ecosystem like polka dot which you know some people would would admire the technology there and look at all the capabilities amazing but they don't have the adoption one reason is because the tax is too high like the value cap the value capture is you know disproportionate to the value delivered so it's if i do the uh they will advocate it's it's true but look at ethereum islam is super tax you have uh one of the highest tax in any custom and the most uh usability and in the usage

so there's two things there's value acro like value capture and value are like delivered so like going on ethereum like like ave or whatever gets like free composability with every other protocol on ethereum that's amazing right you have like you know unit swap and sushi swap and then one inch on top that gets builds a whole protocol based on that liquidity without permission that's awesome right versus on cosmos or whatever you have to kind of like build that from from scratch so or you have to you don't have to build it from scratch but there's the composability story isn't as effective so like the ethereum composability store delivers a tremendous amount of value and i think that's why it uh why people were willing to pay high gas fees for so long yeah

also the the remember like because we know each other for quite some time and and and back then i was uh criticizing a few different projects uh for me in the customers world we're spending more time to maintain and and build their blockchain rather than actually building the product and i think that's that's a big big issue in the in the cosmos ecosystem is that you have projects and ideas about changing the world and like climate change or any type like this without mentioning the project but then at the end they just built a team of devops a team of guys that build a blockchain but they don't build the product and this was a big i think i think still see that as a big issue

that's very interesting but so you're saying that is kind of a problem because the infrastructure in cosmos wasn't ready right like so this unnamed team is actually now a big opportunity for consulting company to be the consulting aspect the technical aspect for those projects yeah like kind of it's it's getting easier i think we see that right like building a cosmos chain gets easier you have more modules you have more things there from the toolkit you don't have to like code so much now we have also cosmos and i guess we're kind of getting there but yeah i do see your point i think maybe what's also interesting is i guess the other direction of this trend where it's more we are seeing right like application specific blockchains dydx moving to its own chain from the um you know high-tech ethereum environment in a way is that gonna be

like a trend and uh i guess for me if i look at it i think like cosmos like kind of frond ran that idea and it stands for that right so is that the end state or how do you think about are are like successful applications gonna move to their own chain to be able to have the value accrual to their uh token instead of like paying the tax to the exactly king it's really it's really a trade-off right because when you like the app chain thesis is playing out like a lot of people are launching change dx is one but if you look at the number of air drops right you obviously people are are launching chains and the the marginal cost of doing that is going to go way down with stuff like celestia right so right now there's a lot of things that suck about launching your

own chain right forming a validator set like going through test nets like going through that cycle getting bringing up that that building that economic security such as makes sense takes a while but as we're seeing with interchange security that cost went down when celestia comes out again but you don't even have to build any you just like you're just a roll up it's going to go down again so those stories are going to that story is improving one story that still needs to improve is definitely that of composability like on ethereum you get incredible composability and it's synchronous right awesome it's atomic on cosmos it's asynchronous and sort of at the intersection of uh of those two security models is mev and we got to figure out how that works yeah that's super interesting i guess that's also like a area i wanted to dive

into so right um basically right i mean i mean i don't know like i hope people know what mbb is so basically we are talking about um kind of value that is able to be extracted from uh the unchained state of of the different uh protocols by its users or by like validators essentially in the end and uh sean i guess you're building a project here julian is also active in this space in terms of like uh making the market more efficient like uh extracting mvv in the end and uh definitely one of the core uh differences i guess is you don't have that synchronous thing like composability now um when you say

we're figuring that out like what is a way to do that is it just like ibc are we always going to stay in this realm that you will just have like a different kind of composability or is it possible to get to that stage where you can do like a flash loan uh in the corresponding ecosystem across chains maybe even yeah like when you think about atomicity what we're really talking about is execution right so what is like the risk that something you think is going to happen happens in exactly the way that you expect it right so like if you're taking an arb on even an l2 right and trying to go across a bridge and you're waiting seven days like the opportunity's gone by the time you get there right so this is execution risk and right now there's a lot there's a

lot of execution of this in ibc but i claim that probably in like i don't know two three years there will be atomic blocks in cosmos as in you will have like entertained blocks as couple proposals for how we do that anoma like isaac was dressed up here no adrian was here but there's another guy another nice person from a noma named isaac who's working on a new kind of uh i think he's calling it shimra's right now some heterogeneous packs anyways there's a lot of work being done um and it's not done but it is it is becoming uh more uh believable and and you think that is like kind of it's a core piece to make defy or successful to have this is it that important for the ecosystem yeah it's good because it'll like if you could have like liquidity on one chain

um that applies to an operation another chain doesn't mean you have to move it and it doesn't mean like so all this this this multi-chain world right where the same protocol deploys on multiple l2s or whatever or there's multiple competing sort of thesis of oh this is a better dex whatever it's just fragmenting very limited liquidity like the like the whole blockchain space is just not that big you know and as we sort of partition you know limited resources we have just so we could like execute in parallel it hurts ux because it means like execution between those two chains is just very expensive um so i think that's what's going to drive like the inner chain blocks might happen either like at the protocol era there

might be like this sort of builder layer in between blockchains that sort of like figures out how like the optimal execution for these interchange operations and then gives the user a fixed price and they say yes or no like i will take that and then the user doesn't care whether it's done on optimism whether it's done on osmosis like i don't like right now i think because of inflation there's like a lot of brand loyalty to to dexes right people made a lot of money like being early in in in osmosis but we think about like the next million users i think users just want a really good experience like just give me the trade at a good price you know with no trust assumptions don't lose my money i don't care who fulfills it right whether it's like an lp here or a lending protocol there like

doesn't matter yeah this is what i call a layer 3. it's basically uh as a user you want to use a product you don't really care about the underlying technology you don't really care about how the the system works uh behind the route so you go there you go to curve you want to get some token you swap and then the mechand the system will swap potentially across different multiple different chains uh you want to get the best landing rate uh on ave then you would just borrow across multiple different uh liquidity on those different chains and for us as a quant it's it's kind of like it's beautiful it's uh it's bringing the the concept of arbitrage liquidation and flashlight to next level

because then you instead of having um one scalp one isolated uh market then you type directly into many different markets kind of like in caps like the fx market if the fx market was just one market then you can just type into a six trillion usd market cap in a instant instant uh uh away so yeah it's it's fantastic and what we've been doing in uh mev or like like more like arbitraging and across different different chains so we usually do like leverage or aging according our arbitrage that we take uh so we at the moment in the multi-chain world of quant quantitative algorithmic trading that we we operate we do that more as if it was a centralized finance

so for example social fires and should take arbitrage and you will add yourself another centralized finance that's what we're trying to do with the blockchain the multi-multi-chain because of rewards and early stage the project so you might use them and say even if the price is not the best you will do that because you your airdrop or plan in the future to receive um like governance tokens yeah that's super interesting i think i mean i see like there's also like kind of problems with this right like we're fragmenting the liquidity like incentivizing more venues for exchange and then someone else has to make it efficient again like isn't this kind of a perpetual game that like where does this end and can we consolidate this or like what's the i think there's like so

long is there's so much like capital in the space that we just want to explore as many sort of permutations of like core product thesis and parallel so we could and hopefully as cheaply as possible without like the mala location of like human capital like people are what matter and if you have people working on dumb projects for too long that's really really bad so you don't want to like over finance unproductive projects that are sort of trying stupid things okay yeah maybe also like taking it back again a little bit i guess it's kind of meta philosophically here in a second for a second but i guess the question also more like technically in cosmos now we kind of talked about this asynchronous communication

um thing and how cosmos has to work that out but is there something unique in cosmos that like kind of the cosmos stack allows or that you see that maybe hasn't been seen in ethereum or other ecosystems in the d5 space or is it i mean it has like the best trust assumptions of any bridge like all the there are other bridges and they all have different trusts i don't think any of them are as good as ibc um it is this trade-off of like like a long time ago there was this decision to choose like safety of their liveness and this was like a huge research contentious debate and like ethereum spent what seven years coming to the same conclusion it seems like uh but like

coordinating uh they do amazing uh research it was just like it's a very complicated issue and like with finality you could have these good trust assumptions so that that has worked out for for cosmos other things haven't that has worked out anything you see durian again like being in the ethereum because it's a more um yeah does anything excite you in the cosmos that you think will position it better than something or like as we say also maybe you said like we want to make ibc the standard for all the ecosystems like how do you get actually people to adopt that

right like this standard um i mean we're seeing like i guess like one example like avalanche where it would be amazing right if they would use ibc instead but they're building like their own subnet protocol i guess portagot polkadot has the same um yeah i guess what are your thoughts on this is this like um no no i mean like the um um as shen mentioned and in uh in early of the panel i said the the ibc thing is the killer of the the god uh for cosmos the bridge is uh the bridge functionality and being able to bridge asset across different projects this is the killer um i see the the thing i have in the cosmos

environment to see like this project being able to use the technology but not necessarily bringing value to the uh the car system for example you might be able to use the technology of cosmos which is incredibly uh powerful but be maybe a layer two of ethereum so a functionality that will be allowed to for your term using the technology of cosmos um so yes but the the tech and the car system is beautiful in order for people to jump and start using is again the value i think we we passed the phase of uh incentive incentivization like incentivizing users to come just for the fact of paying them to come because there's no value it's kind of like the same thing of

pay to play to earn or get paid to to play a game uh we we passed this phase because now the in the econ system you have so much utility and value that people will prefer just going for the value in the utility and still making money rather than make getting paid to not have value um so what we need in customers the car system is the same like if it's uh maybe maybe these cost mods could be used for one type niche market for example high frequency trading maybe or derivatives options uh but finding a niche and then people like us as a quant we'll jump into it and then we'll try to abstract

like all moses and all different products but um yeah it's just different and that's maybe that's the question coming question but then you have a clear uh the question is like are the chain going to be able to uh survive when the marriage of ethereum happens because of being if if the vision of having a free transaction and fast transaction happens then those different uh blockchain will need to uh find a niche market to to survive but i think there's a lot of reason why people want their own chains like if you're like a big product talks with a lot of gaming companies that are looking to integrate and it's like so why would uh like a business take on exposure to the congestion of someone else's network

would be one question that's this point i if the vision is of no transaction then uh congestion then you're bringing infinite capacity so like not infinite capacity but uh multiple layers you bootstrap like a layer like like and then you become the the game but without the point um i mean don't get me wrong i'm uh i'm pretty big in the cosmos uh it cost this time i was there in the early days uh team is fantastic i made i've got a lot of friends from the from the costume the only issue you have is like the fact that users or people that are building a product they also need they also need to maintain the infrastructure well the vision of blockchain and the vision of this decentralization as i see it is normally used are agnostic from the

infrastructure the infrastructure is serving all of us and we just plug on top of it well here you still need to operate it's just this paradox for me but i still love it but it's complicated to justify that a team inside a team you need to have expertise in devops for making a product that will sell ice cream you know but i guess like what do you think of uh like what the ethereum foundation is doing to reward the client teams as in they're like giving them some initial stake and then those client teams will run validators and then that revenue will kind of secure them for a little while like what if what if a validator just became like

developers were validators what if those two groups were like one thing and they were economically incentivized that's the vision is the vision is to have uh anyone running a mobile phone to be a a 32 east stake inviter and or liquid staking or whatever uh at the end of the day the infrastructure should be run by all of us and not isolated to a project so but maybe it's still for example as i mentioned if you're concentrating and the point is like i think for product that uh financial product it's very important to run your own infrastructure for example for us if we do arbitrage and customers we will need to to run faster uh because this is the the business and this we need to have access to uh all the transactions before anyone

else and this is what we're doing in avalanche it's what we're doing in solana we have ideas with big amount of money uh so we can uh we can monitor activity i really agree with that like in how much it sucks and like what kind of a barrier to entry that presents like i know that like a lot of market makers will not come into cosmos because the volumes are too low and the cost of running like setting up the infrastructure it's just not worth it you know so it's only like the right now it is really a devotee you know cottage industry even though there are big validators you know like block damon figment you guys you know like you're serious people but there's like a whole other host of people that are are still on the sidelines you know waiting for the

economics to improve yeah because like 100 150 invaders is small do you think that that is actually hindrance i mean i guess maybe a different discussion but i guess just to wrap it up i think we don't have that much time left i wanted to talk a little bit about like a project in cosmos that had or like build on cosmos that had like a lot of traction and evaporated overnight um a little bit so like terra right i guess there was this use case a very financial use case and using the cosmos um technology stack of course you know what we can argue again about the value crew but maybe more just uh your perception of this event how did you perceive it did did was it like good for cosmos bad and and what's the opportunity now

uh that terra is gonna like what are the learnings for you from the whole terra episodes so it's very hard to say that it was great just because so many uh average people lost their savings like that was terrible um yeah but there were good things about it right for when the fact that like tara came and collapsed without affecting anything else in the ecosystem really you know was kind of interesting in terms of anti-fragility um in terms of like so we were in the market so we run searching operations as well and we were in the market when that happened and we saw like what it looks like when a network is under pressure and you know what was it both from an infrastructure perspective and from a mechanism design perspective we learned so much uh during that period

which now we could we could deploy to benefit the entirety of the rest of the ecosystem so i think yeah there's there's a lot we learned from the terra collapse on that side uh well i wrote articles uh we wrote some piece of articles and wrecked uh i also was very strong raising voices like before the event um like six months before like saying that the um talking about the terra and the mechanism and saying this was a very dangerous game and um [Music] what i think is what we learn as a that's what usually we say is like uh you always learn from

the mistake and not never from the success so what happened is actually fantastic for the ecosystem and come back to sean a lot of people lost money uh but it basically taught us um that those things can happen and we have to be very careful we have to be and also we don't uh we need to stop shaming people when they try to have a pragmatic approach and rezoning on a public uh sphere like such as twitter when someone is saying okay this mechanism is is not backed by mathematics and it's not uh it will collapse at some point because it's built and design uh looks like it's bouncy you know the only way that it's working is because people are joining in and they're making money so you sell your back to the next

person but in terms of technology it's actually showing that the the project failed not because of the the stack it's because the product the person who designed the product the company uh was completely uh uh flowed uh as a big flow inside the process but the technology and cosmos tendermint and other stuff this is beautiful and it's so like strongness so that it was actually working then yeah on the violator side but then we come back on the limit of validators this translates decentralization of cosmos which is another aspect which for me is uh it's a bottleneck of the protocol right now um but otherwise the tech is still working all right i guess we can wrap up on this

i think we could also like continue the discussion talking about like the validator set and if is anything else actually oh yeah maybe we can even take a public question if anyone wants to ask something um kind of cosmos defense related okay thank you so i guess the umk you made a great point about the product about atom because i guess there was a trade-off when uh they decided to go for sovereign blockchains uh which has its own utility so basically it's built on the same technology but it doesn't bring value to atom however we have interchange security coming up with uh where

the atom token will be valued a little bit more because they will be able to validate on other blockchains and then we had ibc which was implemented last year if i remember correctly and so my question is from a technical standpoint is it possible for other blockchains such as ethereum avalanche or any others to implement ibc so we don't have to go through bridges where we can have tokens directly on the blockchain from a technical standpoint is it possible i mean yes i think it kind of depends on the consensus mechanism or like the finality assumptions and how

because you have to build like a light client for that specific chain that kind of speaks ibc and kind of can follow the standard i'm sure you're uh more versed in this topic but yeah essentially i think for some it's harder than for others especially if there's like some probabilistic finality or the consensus is not well understood like for example solana where it's kind of like you don't know what you're where you're at but in others it's maybe easier to to build and i think there are people building it right like um i think composable finance team is is building it for the near like a light client of thunderman to to be able to use ibc we actually like horizon we did like some work on tendermint in solidity uh that for cello so this is not in production but like

there's work being done on multiple fronts to kind of make that possible and i guess yeah the end goal would be that this is adopted and really used yeah there's a project called polymer that is building like a light client for ethereum that's gonna that's for eth2 that's pretty exciting um but yeah there is like there are trade-offs to ibc you need uh succinct electronic proofs and you need to find instant finality so all these so maybe you could have like a gadget that says like ah i'll just like wait for some i don't know let's see what's coinbase at 50 blocks 50 okay the coinbase threshold you know is the finality gadget for maybe that'll work uh yeah but it but you can do it and there's people doing it and they're they're making progress

yeah you can see on a ets research that ch you have like a huge feed about ibc implementation or project trying to implement the ibc mechanism into ether like clients and a piece of stuff like that thank you guys big round off applause please so and i just see it the next speakers in the room gregory this time without a hat interesting yeah nice that's cool is it too crazy too complex i don't know if the audience is like following it oh

was it no at some point i was like oh should we take it back and try to explain mvp for a second oh i think i guess like the audience is smart enough hopefully too i just focus on having fun i think if we have fun on the panel then the audience is fine yeah are you next yes oh okay i'll stick around we have many reasons for going slow [Laughter] do i didn't upload a pdf so i could go to i made the um i sent a link to it

so there's a p there there's a um i don't have exercises it's not the end of the world are you just not at the end of the world i i all i had was a logo uh yeah you could do that it's not a okay here we go hey everybody

um [Music] is there any way that somebody could bring me a little water that would be amazing and also can you tell me how long i have 15 minutes perfect thank you all right hi everyone i'm gregory landauer i'm one of the founders of regen network and um i'm going to give a little talk about what needs to be true for the cosmos ecosystem to be the home for refi or regenerative finance i just came over in an uber from the sustainable blockchain summit

which is a parallel event taking place in which protocol labs and cello and solana and a bunch of other ecosystems are having this conversation about regenerative finance and tokenization of carbon credits and other things so i have a lot of like very fresh insights to share it's like hot off the press you know what needs to be true so i'm gonna i'm gonna try in my 20 minutes to do three things um one is i'm gonna sort of like explain wtf refi you know in just at a high level what are we even talking about here and then the second thing that i'm going to talk about is

a little bit about what region network is actually doing you know functionally and in terms of our business development cycle and you know just the applica the app chain that we're developing what is it but i want to kind of keep that brief because really what i want to talk to people in the ecosystem about is how we as a community need to approach being attractive for the regenerative finance movement which is an enormously important movement for the planet and also for you know i would argue for just financial viability of the blockchain world okay so what's refi it's

comes from this concept of regenerative finance um so you're sort of like smashing regenerative finance not refinancing loans into the the you know the hashtag meme refi and what that what most people are talking about really relates to climate action the the the dominant narrative in the refined movement is around um carbon sequestration avoiding emissions and fighting climate change and sort of integrating and upgrading the incumbent or legacy carbon markets using blockchain technology there's a lot of that conversation that level of conversation but i also think broadly that movement is trying to go a step

deeper and ask the question what happens if we redefine value flows and creation to align it with some sort of public good that a community identifies as important for their existence because that's a level deeper than just the climate question right because climate change we're sort of saying hey we have a biosphere all of our lives depend on the biosphere all of our industries depend on the biosphere our monetary system is sort of like a figment of our human imagination and our human imagination depends on the biosphere functioning well so how do we connect the financial how do we connect and coordinate our human economy with the larger world the real world the tangible

world of climate flows of carbon cycles of water cycles how do we do that in a way that and and if you do that if in some way there are assets and collateral and financial instruments that are all linked in a legitimate transparent and plausible way to to ecological health or regeneration think about the transformation of what economics means and what finance means and what money means it's really mind-blowing when you start to you know go in deeply into that so refi it's a huge deal in the rest of the crypto space

right now the ethereum community has kind of glommed on to the regen meme and refi and there's a huge amount of activity it's quite frothy it's pretty hand wavy a lot of it isn't great but it's like a thing people are really pouring lots of money and time and energy into it the same is true like every ecosystem now is like jostling to try to get in on the thing which because it somehow has to do with i think the kind of utopian roots of the blockchain movement almost all of us probably are here because we genuinely think some sort of open distributed permissionless democratic system

is going to be better right so all of us have some you know impulse to try to serve and transform society and that is pretty deeply resonant with this you know the deep maybe the the one layer deeper which is hey let's tangibly connect those aspirations to real world regenerative outcomes okay um regen network our our attempt is to create an open thank you so much our attempt is to create an open system for communities to define and mint ecological assets and we're starting with carbon markets

because there's an existing market and people already exchange these ecological assets in the form of carbon reductions or avoided emissions so there's and that market is 350 billion dollars per annum or so and it's growing at about 30 percent a year and most people are forecasting that specific market to be something like two trillion dollars per year of economic exchange so there's like a there's a that's real money that's a real market that's a market that is going to surpass you know the the far surpassed the current crypto market and our market cap as a community but fundamentally

that's that go-to-market strategy is really in service to a set of tools that are meant to allow communities to kind of define how they're going to incorporate ecological health into their value system i'll get back to why that distinction like why i'm not just sort of like why we're not all in on just like the the carbon market thing where we're like yeah we'll we need to serve this emerging carbon market right we need to improve it we need to make it become more legitimate and more more efficient more transparent but

also it's it's not everything there's something deeper that we need to pay attention to there's a more holistic kind of regeneration that's really at the deeper root so region network currently has a structure in which the community can delegate the ability for someone to create a new credit class that credit class has to have a set of metadata it has to sort of define the minting standards whereby you're using science to say there's a outcome somewhere like a carbon unit or a biodiversity unit or a water outcome and

we have more than 40 different projects all around the world doing some of the most inspiring things with eco credits soil carbon sequestration coral reef restoration marine protection areas green carbon sorry blue carbon kelp regeneration sea grass dugong conservation salmon watershed regeneration it is amazing it's like astounding the creative and powerful things and these are you know scientists from yale or mit and their indigenous communities from the amazon the spectrum of people who are trying to collaborate to innovate quickly and one of the

interesting things is that's because in the legacy system for carbon markets it is incredibly claustrophobic it is incredibly bureaucratic it is incredibly just like constricted and what we're trying to do is open up a creative space and say put the community of actors in charge of defining their own minting standards what is you know and let the market decide the value markets are good at that that's what they're for you know so so that's what we're building at region network there's a couple of other pieces which are important we're trying to do some backwards compatibility with legacy

institutions and markets so that's why we've been super slow recently to get you all the nature carbon ton apologies about that we're building a bridge and that's proven to be a little bit harder than we anticipated so coming shortly region network is going to have a full featured user experience that allows you to buy and sell and retire eco credits to bridge existing carbon credits over from polygon or cello onto region and therefore into the cosmos ecosystem where they can then be used to yield farm on osmosis or potentially who knows there might be

other sort of fun financial applications that are coming and there's also a user experience for people to go through the origination process so to define a standard and to provide the data that backs that standard and to mint a new eco credit into the mark directly into the marketplace right in a disintermediated way the last thing i'll say about regen is each of these credit classes each credit is essentially a self-governing dow right so that's the that's that's the concept right um i'll um i think i'll refrain from going uh a layer deeper in sort of like what's what's happening with regen network

because the real meat of the talk that i want to give and the real conversation i want to have with everybody here is about what we need to do as an ecosystem to be attractive to this movement you know and and region has a big role in that like what we need to do is build fantastic tools for project developers and farmers and scientists to make it easy for them to bring their their land their stewardship and their scientific expertise together to create a representation of regenerative impact or conservation impact like that's our role right that's what we need to do well but as an ecosystem at the cosmos

ecosystem what we need to do well to be attractive to this broader movement because that's just one application right but refi that's that's like at the root of regenerative finance it's the deepest layer origination without good origination you get what happened with klimadow anybody familiar with that anybody klima holders so what happened there is they tried to jump directly into financialization and liquidity and they sort of chose a sub prime carbon asset and tokenized it and they there was like a massive market

whiplash so they relied on hype and they relied on the sort of like djinn ape were all gonna go in it together and you know that's a market for us that's an important thing to understand but deeper than that we have to understand the the roots of legitimacy and and the roots of how we create assets that are deeply meaningful they have real impact they represent real regeneration is actually a hard thing to do so we're trying to do that at regen network but we also need we need a bunch of other things so i'm going to outline the things i think we need as a community number one we need to mature our capital formation as a

community capital formation in the cosmos ecosystem sucks let's be frank we're trying to work on that with cerulean ventures so we recently raised some money we're raising some more cirillian ventures not r d inc or regen foundation we said hey let's get a let's have a vc fund that focuses specifically on the cosmos story for regenerative finance so we raised seven and a half million and some region and they're actively raising i can put you in touch with them but it needs to be bigger and better than that that's one organization we need to be serious about capital formation in our community we need to be able to deploy

startup capital and follow on rounds and make it attractive we need to have capital formation attention around regenerative assets right in like cello um their treasury and maker dow now those treasuries for backing stable coins are super aggressive in trying to buy carbon credits and other regenerative assets right they're trying to market make we need to make sure that inter and you know any of our other stable coin projects are understanding the key role of these types of assets on their balance sheets and i could go on a whole dissertation about why that's financially responsible and an important thing to do but just to say in capital

formation there's sort of the the market making of the asset itself and there's the investment in startups and projects and infrastructure and development that actually makes it all work so so capital formation the the second thing we need to do better as an ecosystem is around the the defense and articulation of the value proposition of app chains and why it is important to have your own sovereign state machine for many of these applications because it is legitimacy is sourced vitalik even wrote vitalik wrote one of the most cogent defenses of the app chain thesis that's ever been written and it was the blog that he wrote about legitimacy and in

that blog he said legitimacy doesn't come from the immutability of the blockchain it comes from the community of actors choosing to imbue legitimacy and here in the cosmos ecosystem we understand that we can link the consensus of a state machine to the community's generation together of legitimacy and we can tie that to specific features that we would call sdk modules where there's executable logic of some sort that the community thinks is important and legitimate right and so for these markets for public goods regenerative outcomes impact

that sovereign state machine that inclusion of the entire community in generating consensus about what's going on is you know if you really dig into it from a game theoretical perspective is far superior than running on a giant rent-seeking arbitrary smart contracting platform right where people have different incentives they their incentives are any asset is good any activity is good as long as i can extract value as a miner as long as it hypes and pumps which is different from a scenario where you're trying to align people's incentives around a set of qualities of an impact right and that's where the

value is being derived so we have a philosophy we have an ethics we have a tech stack that is really deeply aligned with this thesis of regenerative finance really deeply aligned but we need to do better at being able to articulate you know why that is true why is it true and we need to be able to like make that argument kind of over and over and over again because everybody kind of like has this um i don't know i kind of like to call it the machine brain right where you know there's a set of assumptions and people just like or keep keep on those assumptions it's like the ultrasound money thesis of ethereum right it's just a mantra so we kind of need to develop our own mantra about you know sover like the the roots of

sovereignty in legitimacy and and that legitimacy is the pre-prerequisite for a regenerative economy so you really can't run this on you know an arbitrary smart contracting platform that's owned by a bunch of vcs or owned by just a bunch of early people who happened to be there that have nothing to do with your use case either way so that's number two of the things that we need to be thinking about as a community so there's capital formation there's sort of like our brand our marketing that defense of sovereignty linked to legitimacy linked to regeneration and how important that is

for us to articulate and the third thing is the tech stack we just have to do we have to continue to do better at composability and lowering the cost of deployment there's been huge leaps in this recently right and i know the sdk team is is cranking away on you know app wiring and other things that are going to transform the developer experience and with interchange security this is going to transform the modular blockchain stuff that celestia is doing is going to transform this this is all kind of like about to happen right it's all about to happen but we do need to to understand as an ecosystem

that those are barriers to getting adoption from from passionate talented humans who want to deploy their time and their energy and their capital to try to make change happen in the world because let's face it it is more expensive to do it in cosmos so so while that is true right the capital formation like winning the meme war and winning the tech usability story you know while we're still not quite there on the tech usability we have to really you know lean on these other two right we have to be willing to fund and

make it possible to receive funding and you know and be generous and aggressive in making it an open dynamic community and build on we need to sort of subsidize that a little bit more aggressively than i think we are and we need to just keep reminding everyone why doing it a little bit like doing taking the time to it costs it costs more money and it costs more time to deploy an app chain than it does a smart contract period full stop why is that important why is it important right and i tried to make my case for that

i would just encourage everyone like i guess the purpose of my talk is to just like say let's have that dialogue over and over again and let's sort of like distill our community story around why that is so important why why sovereignty connects with legitimacy and why legitimacy is the foundation for a regenerative economy and if we can do that to ourselves if we can articulate it and believe it i certainly believe it right i am a i am a deep believer in that that's why we put so much time and energy into from the very beginning building on the cosmos stack before the sdk even really existed and contr that's why we

contribute to the cosmos sdk is because we believe that having an application specific blockchain technology that any community in the world can create a state machine that links to their cultural system of value and their ecological state is really the thing right region network is important and what we're doing is essential but the bigger game here is making it cheap and easy for communities to link their value production on their own terms without there being some sort of weird incentive rent-seeking situation so i'm not sure where i'm at with time i'm i'm done thank you all for listening it's always

a pleasure to see everybody i'm so stoked to be here and this venue is amazing isn't it good job you guys thank you thank you gregory and i think you will be around for a while in order to answer some questions um actually i have to check we actually supposed to have a small break but um i don't know if it makes sense but yeah go ahead make a break let's do it we will continue in five minutes i don't know because it works better on a link if

it's possible uh

is all right we now continue with the last keynotes of the day and we will start with erin from celestia introducing us to the concept of modular blockchains stage is yours hello hello i'm super excited to be here um i'm talking about some of my favorite things today so i'm talking about abci plus plus celestia and also uh just app specific chains in general so

ah yes and here here's my um twitter and my github you can get a hold of me there i also have like a repo on my github that contains some of the links for this talk because i think i only have like 20 25 minutes so i don't have time to cover everything so i'm i kind of link things a lot um crazy things that you can do with abc i plus plus so i think first i'm going to talk about uh what abci is what abci plus plus is i'm going to talk about how we at celestia use abc i plus plus um and then i'm going to talk about some of the other things that you can do

with abci plus plus so abci abci is i think it's literally just stands for application blockchain interface and that's exactly what it is it's a way for your application to talk to a blockchain so it's it seems it's very simple it it allows for developers to sort of separate things out you know i can focus on working on my blockchain and someone else can focus on using on building their application and then those two things can talk to each other it saves a lot of time for development wise but also an interface is inherently limiting right you make a certain set of

assumptions when you have an interface and currently like the current abc i it just makes your application um it is it essentially assumes that it's a state machine and that's it you can't really do anything else if your application isn't stateful then it's not really that useful to you so i even go to the point of saying that abc i plus is one of the most important advancements in tooling for app specific chains yet and the like i know that's kind of like a slightly hyperbolic but

uh considering like how limiting the current abc i is i feel um pretty comfortable saying this so the abci like i was kind of hinting at is like the abci only does stateful mechanisms and then abci plus plus does state also does stateless mechanisms and doing abci effectively just does what smart contra smart contracts can do but abci plus plus is doing what smart contracts could never do and if you don't mind i'm going to start a timer and open up my speaker notes

okay so abc i plus plus effectively just adds a few methods so this the first method at the top is called prepare proposal and this is what happens when essentially a validator is creating a block so before with abci you effectively just took all the transactions from the mempool and you just include it in a block and gossip that block out to the rest of the network that's as simple as it was like there was no call back to your application your application had no control over that now with prepare proposal tendermint or anything that's running your blockchain

will essentially call this function and you can have arbitrary logic before you even gossip the block so this is an incredibly powerful tool same goes for a process proposal process proposal is when the got when the block is gossiped to you you effectively can run some arbitrary logic on that proposal block which again is a super super powerful tool it's you can effectively add block validity rules arbitrary block validity rules into process proposal and now we go to extend vote so this this all this is all sort of going in order in like a typical round of consensus or yeah so then now we go to extend vote

so extend vote is when um during consensus you've already agreed upon what will go in the block for that proposal block and now you decide to vote on something else so this is um this is when you can whatever's running your blockchain will call your application and pass it some and then like essentially tell it it's like hey it's time to vote on this new thing and again this can be arbitrary logic same goes for verify vote extension it's like sort of like the um sibling method to extend a vote so now you can verify the vote extension in any way that you want

and then finalize block and commit basically does like almost the rest of what the old abc i used to do so celestia we have a test net running right now that uses portions of abc i plus plus and we can utilize abci plus plus in such a way that effectively we can take off-the-shelf tooling and create like game-changing technology which is kind of crazy it's like this was just an interface change it's just that powerful of a tool where before we were stuck doing only stateful transitions and now we can have all of

these different tie-ins with our application into consensus so celestia is scalable trust minimized and modular so it's scalable in that it has really good um it has it one for one it doesn't have a state machine so like no execution layer so like what's the most expensive part of running a blockchain it's running the state database well we have a very very very tiny one so essentially all the money that we would normally spend on a blockchain on running the state machine we don't we instead spend that money on bandwidth now it's it's very trust minimize

because like clients sample data and then they effectively convince themselves that the data is available so they're not even really trusting the validator set that the data is available and then they also do something called just like listening for fraud proofs and when they listen for fraud proofs and sample for data essentially they have the full security of a full node which is kind of crazy like that this is the game changing aspect of celestia we're able to do this in a trust minimized way and we're able to make it so that the amount of data that a light client has to download is significantly smaller than whatever

the actual block is however big the actual block is and it's also fully modular like the first title said it's the first modular blockchain so it doesn't handle execution it sort of just lets your blockchain handle it but since it's so scalable and so trust minimized and so agnostic in how it's built celestia sort of just um celestia just lets you build this build basically whatever you want in this trust minimized way and we can do these game-changing things because we just

use abci plus plus and off-the-shelf tooling um and like effectively like our engineering team like really isn't that big considering so yes scalability without compromising on sovereignty so this is something that i don't want to spend too much time talking about because we already have a blog post that covers this very very well but effectively you can have something called a sovereign rollup so we're all cosmos nerds here and you can have the sovereignty of a cosmos chain but the scalability of a rollup and the security of a rollup as well

so we do this without using any state transitions there's like one state transition right you have to pay for the data that you post but that's it so the original abc i basically wouldn't let us do anything like like uh it wouldn't serve any of the purposes that we actually needed to do so we had to adopt something new like we had to use abci plus plus so we have like um this is our our data square so effectively we take all of our block data and we organize it in such a way that we can stick it in this first square here

the original transaction data and then we erasure it out and this is what allows lite clients to sample this data now the one of the main things that celestia changes is the data route so it's effectively just tendermint but then we take the data route and we swap it out for a commit to this square and that's basically like the blockchain part of celestia like the rest of celestia is a different peer-to-peer network for data availability sampling but just the blockchain part of celestia is effectively just this and again this

is like a very simple thing it would be really nice if we could just plug directly into tendermint make this one single change and then continue on building um other things and having just the security that we would normally get by using something off the shelf like tendermint something that's battle tested so there there are some things that like clients need to do with the square that we incorporate into abc i plus plus so the first thing that they need to do is we need to create the square like i was talking about in the first first case is like light clients need to sample this square so we we've created this the square we've erasured the data that's fine but

we also need to organize the data in such a way that the light clients can find can prove that their data was actually included in the block and again this is this is something that isn't that difficult if you can have a plug directly into consensus yes so uh this is kind of like what i was talking about earlier we have the transactions organized in in like one effectively an index and the same goes for all the rollup blocks so the messages it says like message one and then message two that's effectively a rollup block um

you need you need the messages to sort of be isolated into their own shares so that you can so that you can as a like client you can easily look and find out that if a uh if your data that was actually relevant into your rollup block was included in the celestia block because you're already convinced that the data is available now you need to know that it's actually included in the block and in order to do that you have to have you have to like malleate the transaction so again with the old abci there was just no way to do this it wasn't um like it wasn't possible you had to have this tie-in before you before you

actually propose a block you have to be able to uh you have to be able to basically make this call to the application so this is basically what exactly what we do right like like i was talking about before we have that one method called prepare proposal and block producers organize the block data during this step along with that though is that we have validators verify that the data was actually organized in the correct way and that all the the rollup block data was actually included in that block so now there's also an important note that

the light clients don't actually have to trust validators to do this there's fraud proofs but that's a separate thing i just that's kind of important to note um ah yes now so that's how celestia uses abc i plus plus and that's how celestia can like we can utilize tendermint we can utilize the sdk using avci plus plus it doesn't it take a small team can create like incredibly powerful technology but like i said like we're like the first team to really use this in a test net there's still like a ton more that you

can do that other teams have already started working on so one of the things that is going to get like really crazy with with the advent of abc or the introduction of abc i plus is effectively mev it's going to be incredibly easy right to for validators to add their own code before they propose a block that's literally one of the methods it's called prepare proposal it's before you prepare a proposal block or before you you actually propose a block i'm going to call a method that's like literally giving the validators here here's where you add your mev code that's that's literally what it is so it's going to get really crazy

um now this gets a little more interesting in a delegated proof-of-stake situation but more like another interesting thing that you can do is custom mempools so uh currently now with the cosmos sdk and with tendermint like the mempool is in tenement this design decision is just so that like application developers don't really have to touch the peer-to-peer part of the code but if they wanted to and if they had some very custom needs for the mempool like i think dydx mentioned to this is you can take the mempool and you can just stick it in that first method

so every time you call every time a validator is going to call prepare proposal they can just have their own mempool their own custom mempool take the transactions from that mempool and stick it in the proposal block which gets gossiped and then let's see you can also have like i was getting uh i i think i briefly mentioned with process proposal is you can add block validity rules so you can add extra rules arbitrary rules on the block meaning that like if if you want the transactions to be ordered in a specific way you can do that if you want the transactions to be

ordered by the amount burned you can do that if you want to execute certain types of transactions before other ones you can do that and if the if the block producer doesn't actually do this then the block's invalid full nodes just look at the block it's obviously doesn't follow the rules we're going to ignore it it's like this is like a super super super powerful tool okay so immediate execution one of the things that's kind of troublesome with tendermint is that it has um deferred execution we don't have to go into that too much

now but effectively um how am i doing on time really quick i didn't keep track of 10 minutes okay awesome okay so tendermint uses deferred execution deferred execution is a little bit problematic not only for us to think about because we normally expect that if a transaction was included in a block it was executed in that block that's not the case with tendermint it's actually executed in the block afterwards but it's also important for certain block validity rules it's like if you change your transactions a little bit then um you kind of need to know that they're executed that they can be executed in

that block in order to add a certain block validity rule so this is something that you can do with abc i plus plus is like with process proposal you can add your own specific logic some of that logic could be executing the entire block in that block instead of waiting until the next block you can also have malleated transactions so this is something that celestia uses and um you can take a user's transaction and maybe this user's transaction has some metadata the the block proposer takes that transactions they malleat it they change it in a way and then they then it gets actually gets

included in a block so this is like a really really powerful tool we have to use it in celestia but you can also use it for u2 utxos general purpose utxos so i'm not a complete expert on fuel at all but they do use certain technology like this this malleated transactions that have general purpose utxos which is super super super powerful you can do um batching of transactions there's a huge um array of things and like literally right before this talk john just explained to me that this is like you could actually describe most of what abc i plus plus can do is

malleation of transactions but this is like just being ex starting to get explored with blockchains um it's super super powerful and i'm really looking forward to what people come up with with this but you can have dynamic resource pricing okay so i'm not really sure why you would want to do this but you could you could um as you are including transactions in your block you could execute them and then you can see like maybe you have uh there's there wasn't a lot of storage used for that block so maybe you decrease the price of storage i don't

know like you can you can really get crazy with the things that you can do with the application logic that you can tie into preparing a block and processing that block oh yeah and now we get on to the vote extension portion so [Music] i think anoma is doing this and i know that osmosis is doing it and it's mempool privacy so via this extend vote method and this verify vote method is you can actually have all of the transactions are encrypted when you send them the when the block proposer proposes a block

they include all of the transactions in that block already but they're still encrypted and then whenever you move to um this extend vote phase they ask all the validators who each each of which holds some portion of the key to unencrypt them and then this is a dramatic oversimplification but effectively they get they get unencrypted after or in the next block and executed in the next block but they've already been agreed upon so there's no opportunity here to order transactions which is what mev is penumbra uses this for privacy and in

like a very similar technology it's like the public key they sort of have the validators collectively generate a public key and then they do homomorphic threshold encryption i'm not an expert on this but this is like sort of the powerful things that you can start to access with abci plus plus you could have low latency app-specific super secure sovereign oracles and that is the biggest word solid you will possibly hear today but it is very important so oracles are traditionally like we're all familiar with like chain link and having an oracle in your smart

contract it's not very secure it's just a multi-sig um it kind of like gives you a headache it's just i'm not even sure if it can actually be secured unless it's an app-specific sovereign oracle now you can do that you can vote on arbitrary data this is kind of like the like we're starting to get into just like i hope i'm trying to illustrate to you like you can really do some crazy things with this you can do um ah yes optimistic bridges there's probably something you can do with optimistic bridges here if you change that can't use ibc you could do this with abc i plus plus

um and with rollups there's nothing stopping you so this hasn't been implemented yet but there's nothing stopping you from using a committee that's not in your validator set so this could be modified in the future to have anyone vote on these things and verify the votes yourself so again this is not implemented yet this is super far speculation but i think that's it ah yes before i leave i have to mention a few things celestia i think i already mentioned that we're the first modular blockchain we have sovereign rollups we have an amazing blog post that i encourage all of you to read um that's just

um at our blog it's like blog.celestia.org um celestion enables you to have these rollups and you don't have to have a validator set instead you just use an api and then if you um are also curious to why celestia is so awesome in the first place i would encourage you just to look up mustafa al-bassam and that's it we're hiring um huge shout out to everybody who's put in so much work into abc i plus plus uh it's been a lot and i know that we're all just like a decentralized team and sometimes we don't all agree on the same things i just appreciate everybody for giving it our best

and that's it i don't think i have any time for questions i'm sorry but [Applause] now thank you evan indeed we're a little bit behind the schedule but i'm sure you will stay around here for a couple of minutes right so nice and now i welcome the next big speaker to the stage saga from lum network hi everyone

first of all i'm really happy to see the cosmos community in paris which is my city as you can guess so today we are going to talk about value creation and how to create an ecosystem with value creators and i have a first question for you according to you how would you define a cosmonaut so i'm not talking about the real cosmonaut of course but about the cosmonaut of cosmos community and we have been in cosmos community since 2018 and recently we asked ourselves this question how can can we really define this community so we could say that

being a cosmonaut is your old cosmonauts and some point because you are participating to cosmos events we could say that people that own some one of a kind of app chain or protocol of cosmos ecosystem could be a cosmonaut but is it actually true when you take example of people using cosmos sdk and if it's someone who is buying like atom on a centralized exchange really engaging with the community so the really interesting definition we found was actually one that was uh quoted on the first very first version of cosmos website

and it was like a space program becoming a cosmonaut means that you are not only at the forefront of the blockchain space race but you are pushing the boundaries into deep space exploration itself so really like esoteric definition i really like it but at luma we decided to follow this definition that cosmonauts of cosmos community create value for the community and get value back for their contribution and actually i think at loom we are all cosmonauts we have built a layer 1 protocol

that is that is a really to foster trust and engagement between consumer and brands so we produce open source tools for rating and reviews for loyalty for acquisition we have been working on this field since 2016. first we were developing on ethereum we migrated to cosmos in 2018. we launched our mainnet in december 2021 and we decided to have a huge focus on the ux to really pursue this mission of mainstream adoption and now we have redefined our mission and our mission is that everyone every consumer or could become actually a cosmonaut

so we will do it step by step okay i think it's uh one of the first uh cosmos conferences we started to organize uh conferences uh in lisbon prague and we will be in medellin but what we decided to do is really to tackle a real-life business which is called skippers the name is not really famous but they have brands in 40 countries and they are known as verified reviews so their business is to collect independently rating and reviews after a purchase so to check that is a real consumer that made a purchase

and to collect them independently because if the brand asks you directly for your review review or your rating there is a bias that they will not publish it and so on so they are trusted third party and to emphasize the trust that people can put in the network they decided to partner with us but we saw there an opportunity to actually push this mainstream adoption so yes and i talk about mainstream adoption because um this is a group that is currently uh developing in 45 countries they collect 30 millions reviews every year that correspond to 700 millions email sent to users every year

and they work with more than 7 000 brands and what they needed to do is to emphasize the trust because currently people can say okay they collect a review but maybe they will delete it at the end so we have a whole process on the on the explorer to show that no review is deleted um we want to increase the return rate because if you think when was the last time you put a review online most of the time you noticed that people they put a review and they are really satisfied or really dissatisfied but in the middle you don't have any new ends so sometimes you don't have the the quality and talking about the quality most of the review are really short like yes

the product was good or yes bad and you don't have any insight so what we did is that we decided to create a program based on the loom token to increase the quality of the review by incentivizing them in a really transparent way currently you can check on the loom explorer that for every review you can see the exact number of loom that is attributed to the review and even if the review is one star or five star this rating doesn't count in the review attribution only the quality matters why we do that and why the brands want

to get all this content it's to build community so you will see the loop at some point it's to build a community because when you gather inside of your community of your consumer who are evolving all the time you can adapt your communication strategy your marketing and co-create the values of your brands so we have been working on this field for more than six years now building this experience of gathering insights and developing communities and now the time has come that we decided to give back also to the cosmos community all of this insight that we have been

developing we would like to pursue this mainstream adoption not only giving loom token but giving access to all the tokens that make sense uh in the cosmos ecosystem and when i say i make sense is that all the project protocol people that are building values that are contributing to this interchange community and what we want to do is to bring non-crypto people mainstream users like the average consumer but also to develop all those those definitions of values to also develop cosmos community around other crypto communities i will not develop that because i think

you are all convinced about that but crypto cosmos is one of the best crypto community in terms of tech in terms of people in terms of vision and we are currently backed by the interchange foundation we discussed the program and the the tools because we are building tools for the community for mainstream users and crypto people so i already said that because i was too excited to talk about the community when we started in 2018 it was funny actually because the cosmos community was didn't really exist i can say it started really really small and there was no ibc no

osmosis at this time and i believe that this community has been developed in a great way because of the philosophy and this notion of international blockchain and interoperability which is to my opinion and to all the loom team the core philosophy of blockchain itself so what i would like is to not having one team working with interchange foundation but really pursue this mission with all the protocols all people that want to have an impact on the cosmos value definition and contribute to this development of

tools that we will make accessible for the public so i there is a link to a really really short type form we are starting this work currently um and we will announce everything we have built together with all cosmos protocols um in medellin so happy to start the discussion with you from there and i try to remain really short because i know we have a tight schedule so thank you everyone and so glad to see cosmos community in paris and cosmonauts like you thank you [Applause] now yeah thank you sarah we are actually

very well in time so are there any questions for sarah thank you very much for this presentation uh via validator of loom we validate loom network and we also think that this is a beautiful and nice idea and how we can uh what is the main uh steps that you think is better to do now like we want to contribute with the something important that will help to develop the network and the community if you can tell which steps are the most important for now on the stage of development we will glad to contribute with the most important yeah

really good question actually this is everything we are building right now so we are creating a group of people to discuss those subjects because we really want to to build those tools as community tools so if you wanna fulfill the type form and then from them we are creating notion group of working groups and so on to uh start discussing that we are quite advanced in the definition and now what we really want to do is to define the values and the you know the the all the players that will be involved also another question thank you sarah thank you

[Applause] so we now continue with a panel uh once again smart contracts on fmos here's our moderator my partner from friends validator and cosmo vs fabian where are your fellow panelists hey guys yeah in the meantime maybe we can talk a little bit um about the upcoming cosmos conference actually um as long as we are waiting so what i find so fascinating fascinating

right now is that we had just one cosmos conference last year and this year we will have four cosmos conferences across three different continents so what is the next continent we are going to approach yeah the the next cosmos conference will be cosmoverse in medellin colombia um which is pretty cool because the latin american market is it's uh it's a very untapped market for the for the crypto industry um so yeah pretty excited to bring cosmos to to this um new continent basically 100 we are pumped and it will be much larger this year

actually so and here are our um fellow panelists federico from athens so we have uh we're still waiting for dimi and manfred how was ecc cc was good um hey cool um yeah to see what's good um

a lot of projects building and uh i mean i'm excited about like ethereum in general and i'm excited about like what we can build with interoperability baked into the avm yeah i'm really bullish this sounds promising um when do you think we'll actually um the shared security model of fmos is actually a timeline yeah so like the shared security model it's been built by the icf like like the module and the core component but what we want to do is like as they work on this functionality we want to work on in

parallel on some functionality that will allow these new consumer chains to use ivc without any looser composibility that means like evm compatible evm specific chains will be able to send uh smart contract calls to smart contracts to leave on fmos so then you won't be able to like lose any um time getting all the basic integrations from day one does anyone know if andreas here in paris maybe let's use the time to maybe like

introduce yourself a little bit so um manfred moffrey or how do you pronounce it okay um maybe tell us a little bit more about you know so we have some so yes gno is a an ongoing in progress blockchain um we're building it with jay the creator of tendermint [Music] actually we are building it as something new we don't want any secondary chain using the code right now to just have zero dependency zero dependence and be able to make absolutely what we want and the goal is when it will be production ready to extract from no what will be tandem into two what will probably be ibc2 with a

focus on making the next level of interrupt interoperability between the smart contracts and sorry it's a chain focused on smart contracts with the new language and new features and one question on that note so also ignite splitted recently and also no is now part of that and also took one split so maybe can you talk a little bit i don't have but at the end there will still have ignite existing for probably services integration and a lot of things and another company which will probably be named newton nominees inc will maintain the nominee probably some part of the cosmos ecosystem and will be the owner of the

gno and tendermint ii etc so we will join the global initiative what is what is tendermint ii phenomenon ii is a wheel from jake one to make tournament more simple more pure with less modularity less choices so basically we will unforce having only one language one way to do peer-to-peer one way to do everything we want to make things very simple finished at the moment so tournament one will continue to exist and be more focused on [Music] being modular you have better performances and with 10 minutes too this is not a like some software we need to migrate there will be two versions it's more

like python two and person three two language exists one is considered more pure but you still can use the previous one and i think there will be a lot of into one chains for a very long time and it's completely okay but yes it's more simple more focus less modular just one way to do things is his goal right now is to make something we run in a few years and that will stay for hundreds of years without maintenance so we want something stupid simple just doing one thing great okay looking forward to learning more about this new tenderness i guess it's here it's everything i can

say at this point because i haven't looked into specification and specifics of the implementation most of the details are not yet defined and open to contribution we have a lot of things we want to address a lot of things we for instance stupid example we want to remove to remove protobuf and replace with amino which was kind of deprecated and turn them into one because we want one way to do it one simple way reduce the complexity reduce the dependencies etc so that's that's one example of multiple things are just going in one direction and yes hi sorry for being late i was in another

talk cool okay okay so now we're all there you guys still awake it's been a long day cool okay um so i have here manfred from canola and failure from athmos and dimi from juno sitting next to me how are you how are you guys good good good good perfect so welcome to our panel about smart contracts in the in the chain um so let's start with an introduction of uh because you guys run basically three different smart contract platforms so could you all give us an introduction of what what it's all about and how it different from differentiates from each

other so i actually don't run a production blockchain yeah it's not a minor right no it's not my net so we will talk about what is our current state and what we plan but i don't run production and road blockchain is focused on smart contracting with a dedicated language no no kind of of isolation you can access any smart contract from this new smart contract and we have a vision of having trouble interoperability between blockchain with ibc2 and being able to not only read the state of the other

chains but also right make parallelized rights on the on any chain so basically we want simplicity with a new language and mass parallelism um and anthropo interoperability i'm federico i'm the co-founder of atmos i've been in the cosmos ecosystem since 2017 where i was an intern at tournament one and uh now i'm the co-founder of atmos been building the evm on interoperability on the cosmos ecosystem since 2020.

hi i'm dimi i'm a protocol specialist at stake fish and i'm also one of the juno founding community members yeah juno is a smart contract platform that uses kazan wasan and it's permissionless and uh anybody can develop application on it yeah the cosmos ecosystem is pretty unique because we basically have um our own communication standard called ibc it's basically a language for blockchains to easily communicate with each other so this basically is very unique in the crypto ecosystem my my first question is are there maybe

new use cases that develop when it comes to launching smart contracts in this interoperable ecosystem i can take that one yeah definitely i think like interoperability offers like unique possibilities for decentralized application developers to to bake that into the smart contract so for example we in particular have interoperable er c20s but are looking to expand that in uh so that non-evm based genes um like for example juno um that runs smart contracts which are not which is another ev vm or cosmos hub can also talk to smart contracts so don itself

uh expands the user base of the decentralized applications that are deployed on a shared state like an evm or cosmosmen yeah absolutely having interoperable smart contracts i think it's one of the key features of all these smart contract platform and also from a developer perspective it's very different to develop an application or a smart contract that interacts with multiple blockchain especially in some kind of asynchronous way because ibc it's asynchronous so you need to wait for transactions to be relayed and

so it it is a new challenge for developers and it's very interesting and in our case we are trying to to not fix today's problem but see oh we can do maybe something dj for the future and we try to make the ibc spirit on the smart contract and hello creating kind of big merkle structure composed of many chains so some examples could be like an ens service where each blockchain does not only have its dataset but also its own implementation and as the app developer you can maybe just call i want to verify that user i don't know what the original

database the blockchain is and so this is the merkel tree making some kind of micro services in the traditional world into the blockchains allowing independence of the chain but the ibc way of making transactions for the contract fmos juno and knowledge basically all use different smart contract program languages are there maybe any issues with ux when it comes to communicating to each other i think the main thing that needs to be resolved is like how is the interface on ivc for communicating between the two um

the different languages so like i think there needs to be a specification for how to communicate um smart contracts that are on the evm uh on smart contracts that are written rust on cosmo asm or any other language compatible with wasm d and so um i think that's the common approach that needs to be built so that you can build like interoperable smart context no matter which language they're processed yeah as soon we will have some kind of standard in ibc for across smart contracts communication the standard can be adopted by any language so not only rust or

solidity but i don't know golang yeah yeah and so the main thing here is like um composability so um smart contracts on one chain being able to call oracle service providers on for example in the evm or you can call like um junoswap directly from a smart contract on fmos and and so on so like you can create like unique use cases are use special tooling that are deployed on each specific uh smart contract platform and then there's also like unique functionality coming back to your question um that you can do with cosmos in particular um that is that makes

different um like building a smart contract platform on cosmos and on any other um like for example like forking the evm now you can change the economics you can change the gas metering you can like do all sorts of things so that your smart contract platform has a unique functionality as well do you think that internship accounts can help in this process yeah i think interchange accounts can alleviate a lot of the pain points especially around the user experience when running smart contracts so interchange accounts on juno or atmos can control smart contracts on the other one

on the evm itself smart contracts are not another type of account just you just have the code embedded so you could even have a smart contract control another smart contract on the other counterparty chain in this case like juno where the uh smart contracts are like linked in a way through interchange accounts or even like like an ibc standard amazing how do you think will interchange accounts but basically change the crypto ecosystem especially when it comes to towers um i think internet accounts is really relevant for managing portfolios across

the entire interchange ecosystem so like one specific use cases that we've been talking about is like smart wallets so like you can control erc20s um you can also control like the um like smart contracts on or you can talk to smart contracts directly in juno and the same applies to governance so you can directly bone on different proposals with just one single account without having to switch um [Music] like any particular like account and so that is also relevant for dao platforms that are basically on the interchange so like the same dao could be

managing a portfolio uh across different uh smart contract platform yeah i totally agree uh having interchange accounts and especially for dowels is great uh for example you can have a dial on dowdau that it's a interface to run dowels on juno and you can basically do anything you want with the assets that you have on that specific smart contracts so for example you have uh the smart contract on juno that may be staked on cosmosab or other chains or interact with another smart contract on fmos for i don't know yield farming whatever we will have so

it it will empower those to do anything and cross chain so we we are used to see these kind of things but they are limited to one single chain usually on ethereum uh having the possibility to do the same but in a cross-chain world open a what bunch of possibilities and we can literally compose the phi on different protocols and this is uh just amazing yeah one particular use case that i'm really excited about like interchange composability and like talk having smart contracts talk to each other is what you mentioned like uh cross chain like farming or as i call them like interchain workflows so you can set up a

workflow in the same way that you you farmed on ethereum like using different smart contracts here you can create like a sequence of ibc transfers like for example i want to talk to us morris's like and then provide liquidity and have the token and then the token you can transfer it to like a smart contract on fmos and then you get another token from that interaction and then you can send it out to juno and then basically bake an entire like workflow workflow for farming into a single interchange transaction where you execute all of them sequentially and you can create like

new opportunities for for farming on the interchain and this is one particular use case that you can like create um by having these interoperability standards across different smart control compatible platforms yeah i can't i can't wait to see that and uh one thing that maybe i'm a little bit concerned is that you know for every uh hope that you do in this uh composability route uh interchange route uh you are you are relying on the security of that specific chain and if any of these piece broke then everything will

fell off right so we need to somehow educate the user to be aware of the risk of doing these kind of things i mean of course all the cosmos chain are very secure but anything can go wrong anytime and everything in tershen is something we think a lot about interesting account it's shane unique guest token interchange yes a flow of running things or powerlization and concept level of transaction etc so we are considering everything and most of the time we try to think about extremes one extreme which we will be okay this is a an abc feature or this is a smart

contract on a chain but the bridge is very easy to to to use so any chain can say okay we have intersection account but technically it's that chain which manage everything so we try to each time think about um make improving uix having more possibly to have one tool for our for the for the whole ecosystem one one account one gas token etc but we try to to consider okay should we unforesee it should we propose it for instance recently we decided to say that if we do some kind of staking it won't be something current in the chain it will always be it will always be something in the contract because there is no need from the chain to know

completely what is taking about and we try to rethink everything to to make it more flexible and say okay to today's uh the staking is on the chain but tomorrow it will be maybe delegated in terms of rules in terms of uh being split so basically every every feature attachment security etc we are thinking about how we can just make it a contract on a chain but make it easy to call it from another chain and there are just uh we don't we didn't decide we didn't decide anything strongly but just to for you to know we are considering the extremes one thing i also want to talk more about

is is basically that the vision of of how our depth matures is very unique in cosmos because um our our vision is that basically every depth ends up building their own chain right and you guys um you have um like fmos noland and juno are basically general purpose blockchains right but the vision of cosmos is um is that every dep ends up building their own chain so how do you approach approach this this issue and how do you see this yeah i have a very specific vision for the long-term development of juno uh i don't know if the community will agree with me but i will share about this and uh

basically i see juno not as the forever place to build your application but rather as a kind of launchpad where you can oh sorry but you can [Music] deploy your project quite easily you can reach out to a very wide community you can you can get engagement and as soon your project will get big enough you can decide to disconnect from juno spin up your own chain and you can also decide to use your own validators or get interchange security from cosmosab or maybe from juno if we will be a

provider and uh yeah in the roadmap i see all the the toolings that we can provide for uh dap builders to disconnect from from juno and later this morning i was speaking with some guys and they pointed some very uh concerning i mean difficult topic that it's uh uh if if you want to disconnect from the juno chain but you are already live you will probably have your own token that it's already locked in various chains around the cosmos through ibc and

so i would can you spin up a new chain without losing the tokens that are already locked in different protocols so this is this is a challenge that i think we should focus on in the future yeah um i have like a similar vision for atmos where evmus plays like a central role as an infrastructure have uh not only for evm based chains but for the entire uh cosmos ecosystem and so the way that we see this is you first deploy your application on fmos and then like once you get maturity you exit the state by taking the smart contract the code the storage the accounts and the balances and then you create an ivc connection to

the new uh chain that is um being created uh deriving security directly from the fms validator set or you can have your own [Music] chain directly be connected via ibc without renting security but what we want is to like have long-term value creation for the entire ecosystem and so we see this as a way to scale these applications and help them scale mature um into their own sovereign chain and we plan to keep knowledge as a so the first chain not the language of the vm system we want to keep it the official playground place to allow

anyone to create anything we don't want to make it the best place to build the biggest project we want to encourage people to create their chain if they think they will have a special needs or special requirement in terms of performance or something but um with our plan to make entire operable smart contracts and being able to basically be based on another chain's data or structure we have multiple migration flow in ed so you can start something somewhere continue somewhere else by just saying the data source is the other chain during a certain time there will be a lot of transaction and one day it will be automatically only unchained on the new chain

or the other approach with a merkle structure where from d1 you consider that you will always be multi chain maybe one optimized for long time archive data another one for microtransactions etc so yes we have this in in mind and try to just encourage uh not living on one chain so migrating from mention to another is like just having two chains at the beginning yeah cool um one thing that i've been personally asked a lot from from our community is if if it's really the case that dapps launch on a general purpose blockchain and then spin up their own chain

um isn't that bearish for the for the general purpose blockchain itself or is it is it actually pretty good so what are your thoughts on that so i see this as a way for scaling the general purpose chain and to create value by having this chain not live on the state but leave on its own sovereign chain but still using the main applications and this is why it's important to build like this interpretability standard for cross-chain smart contract communication so that this new chain can still benefit from the applications and services build on the general purpose chain i i think that you will be still able to talk to smart contracts by using the

like in this case like the uh general smart contract token um from the chain and so like you will have to use that for to still pay for fees still pay for security or participate in governance while at the same time um acquiring value amongst like all these different chains that are using shared security uh et etc yeah absolutely so it's not bearish it's uh the opposite and actually i'm very excited to see this in the future and uh it's you know drive driving back the value to the main smart contract platform uh at least in the case of juno will be

like up to the dub that will launch their own chain they can they can choose to maybe use interchange security from juno and in that case juno will get some direct value from it but we can also maybe say okay you got a grant from the community pool now you are launching your own chain give us back some tokens with your native tokens so all these kind of economic incentives i think will happen some somehow naturally and like this is the vision of cosmos right we don't want vertical scalability we want horizontal scalability where every everybody will have their own dopp chain so i think this is great

and i think your question goes more about like how do we create value amongst these different chains that are spinning um spinning out from the general purpose chain other than um versus uh how do we prevent um serious some games amongst these different chains so for example if there was like another in our case another chain that uses avm how do we collaborate together so that we are creating value for the entire ecosystem as opposed to like having uh them extracting some of the user or extracting some of the value i think that's the main question and the cross-chain interpretability standards are going to play a huge role in how how do we create

more value by connecting all these different chains and having them um talk to each other specifically between smart contracts yep cool anything anything to add okay i don't think we have much more time yuri already gave me a sign so yeah maybe we should go and take some questions from the audience thank you thank you very much [Applause] any questions can i just speak yes okay um i wanted to

ask the question to dimi um the point that you said that when you launch a new blockchain and you were before having the tokens locked up it's a challenge um do you have any possible solutions already in mind how we could solve that problem i didn't restore this enough yet so i don't know something yeah i think what you can do is like basically you burn all the tokens on the general purpose chain and then you mean an equal amount on the new chain and for all the chains that were connected through ivc if those tokens get sent back to the general purpose chain they will also get burned um redeemed on the new uh

compatible chain so it needs to be like a solution where you can adopt that and like basically send an ivc message saying like oh i burn these tokens from the general purpose chain you need to mean tokens uh to this user um yeah i think that's a lot of work yeah i mean it's you need to build an ivc module to to make it work and um but yeah i think it's doable i have a question uh hey guys um so you're looking looking at the stack of say something like you know the like the web in the internet in general there's um there's homogeneity homogeneity

on the bottom of the stack right with like tcp and http in these protocols and then heterogeneity up the stack uh with application uh development platforms that like vary you know and there's like tons of them how do you see that playing out in the crypto space uh and like blockchains generally um you know you guys all sort of represent a a different way to build applications but at the platform layer um how how is that going to play out and how are we gonna be able to have like interoperability across all of these different heterogeneous you know blockchains uh if if standards don't exist i mean standards exist in cosmos

of course but once you start getting outside of that into the evm space that gets harder you're well aware of this and then if we start plugging like other ecosystems like solana et cetera what's your vision i guess for like where the homogeneity and the heterogeneity has to sort of start to present a gradient yeah so i think that the at the base interoperability name native interpretability through ibc needs to be included i think that's a main like interface for all these like general purpose up like general purpose smart contact chains that uh use you can build applications on top so

you have like ivc in the cosmos stock and then on top you have like the platform and on top of that you have the applications and the applications can communicate between each other through this interoperability standard um that in this case will be ivc but um depending on the consensus mechanism if you're using probabilistic um a probabilistic consensus like nakamoto consensus then you need to rely on and other mechanisms like uh bridges to evm compatible chains or other l1 so i think like pushing for ivc and pushing for more standards of interpretability needs to be like as an ecosystem something that we need

to push for so that we can create no matter like the application you're that you're building in which stock is is built like maybe it's written on juno or it's a solidity smart contract or it's written on on no land you can still use ivc or any sort of like common interoperability standard to have them talk to each other yeah absolutely and i think in the next future we will see more and more chains also not built using cosmos sdk adopt ibc and i mean i think there are already a couple of and yeah we discussed a lot with about this part and think ibc could be integrated in a lot of

other chains etcetera ram etc it will be more complicated with bitcoin or other proof of work chains but technically we can have a basic version of abc that remove both the the atomic swap with uh with record or with something centralized you can still have the consensus on both sides and make entertain [Music] yes collaboration from different protocols yeah you can even use solo machines i mean there's a standard for that um that i think there are only like a few chains that have using i have used that so far um i think crypto.com was the first one to use solo machines to issue dot tokens on crypt.com and i think like us we push

for those standards um we can use certainly that with other uh linear ones that maybe are not ivc compatible at the moment thank you guys [Applause] so we will have now the last keynote of today held by arno from from nomad and then we will wrap it up

with a final panel um are you here there uh [Music] nervous

hi everyone thanks for joining so today i'm going to talk about like how to remain like safer in the cross-chain world from like a devops perspective so my name is arno de la barr i work as a necessary devops engineer for nomad my favorite things are like fixing broken things can be like software like engines i like to work on doi projects pretty like a topic that i really like to talk about is like how to incentivize people from planting trees or farming oxygens um so i've been like in the industry for like only six months i've been like

working as a devops engineer for like uh 15 years so what is nomad um nomad is actually like a protocol cross chain messaging and uh what we've built on top of it is a token bridge and we have also uh built like a cross chain governance module um we also have an sdk um that is here for like developers who can use it for like building custom application um and what differentiate us is basically like to we are using like um we are using um an optimistic like verification to validate transactions

so on the agenda so i'm going to talk to you about like what really keeps me awake at night and the different like components that like constitute or like or or bridge like the unchained component and the off-chain components and like how do we try to secure mostly like the off-chain component and then we're going to talk about the three different pillars of security and how we're applying it at nomad and the best way is to start like improving your security as uh operations so what keeps me awake my cat mystic that play with my feet but like once i'm awake i'm actually like uh have like all those like random thoughts but like why rainbows are actually like curved it's

an actually an interesting topic um and also like making sure that nomads like protocols remain like uh secure and and the products that we have built on top of it also like uh seeker so my anxiety around like security here comes from like all these news that we have seen like for the past years and or two around like uh the bridge is being hacked so we have uh reached like over a billion dollar being stolen over like last year so the different components here that we have for like our token bridge um so it's um so we have pushing like smart contracts on like

fmos for example like which is the replication and uh ethereum um so the um log contracts are of course like open source um so it's like um we're like working like in a public facing environment it brings like some good things and bad things um so working like uh in open source so it's great because the community can like see what we're doing and they can contribute but also like he exposes us to eventually like security vulnerabilities so on the other side too is like we're deploying to public blockchain so like the the perimeter security um so anyone who basically have permissions might have

like who still like uh like private keys to run transactions uh can uh hack us um or and also like those bridges have been prime targets in their industrial world because uh there is a lot of money involved as well and um so the blockchain also security like really is really helpful for us also like for uh i mean by using like this cryptographic consensus and decentralization now like the off-chain components um it's really what we have seen being hacked over like the the the last year and so the agents that we're building are here to orchestrate the actual like movements

of the funds from like the blockchain a to blockchain b um and so it's also open source it's written with rust it's running on more like standard like infrastructure so it's uh it runs um it runs on like on the cloud um so inside docker containers and like with like orchestrator with kubernetes and um so those agents interact directly with the on the smart contract that are unchained and what we're really like trying to apply is like the traditional like security um that is like really that has been proven is efficiency like from web 2.

so web 3 security challenges well one thing that i've seen is like there is like it's a very new industry um um and there's not a lot of like resources of our guideline in a way like how we can uh build the infrastructure um so a lot of like for example like the financial industry or like the healthcare industry have all those regulations and like that you have to follow to build your um your infrastructure and to be compliant in order like to handle for example like in the healthcare industry like to handle like health information so there's no such like regulation in the web three and so

as a devops engineer it's really hard to know like am i like doing the right thing or the wrong thing so the way how we're trying to look at it is like really go over like the different industry and see like what makes sense for like web 3 and trying to apply it um also like there's a lot of startups that are um um very new and like they're building a lot of projects and uh their main focus is really like to go to market and a lot of time like because we all try to go and be on market first like we put aside like the security component um and decentralization so decentralization is actually

interesting because we are like really like um the way how we like thinking and like building systems we are trying to build it in a way where like uh we assume that um the the actor or like the component that we're decentralizing is going to be corrupted at some point and so the goal is like really to the way how you build it is like to um to uh to make sure that even if it gets compromised then like uh the funds or like the whole system like is remain secure so the way how we like think about security at nomad

is to follow like those three pillars the people process and technology a lot of time like the people component and like the the the people pillar i mean and the process is forgotten and a lot of people think about security has on the technology side and in this industry like it's a lot about like the unchained component that is very important however like the off-chain the off-chain side of it is also important so the combination of like all these three pillars really makes security successful so

one thing i would like to really um that we should all pay very close attention is the people that work in the industry your employees and and making sure that like uh that we're all aligned with like the the we're all aligned with like the mission and also the values across the organization by like uh how should we think about security is it actually a priority for the organization uh once like the organization and the the once the organization and uh everyone is aligned on the priority um we can then also like put in place like a training program for like your employees and um once you have like a a training program and like your employee like are

aware about like how to handle like for example like social engineering like um social engineering so because like social engineering is really like uh it's it's been like 90 of like the security hack that have happened in the past and so you can then reuse like that and see your employees as like human firewalls once they are well trained and not like potential like uh potential like targets for hackers and the security is also like something that cannot be achieved by one team or like by one person it's really like a team effort so as long as like the software engineers everyone in the

company is like always like thinking about security first then then like the whole like we all like here to to make it better uh number two like i would say the process is also very important then for example i would highly recommend for um when we work in the open source uh in the open source fashion um that we uh embrace like the actual like devsecops model and so devsecops model is really like to embed like security as part of like your devops model and the devops model is really here like to streamline like your process for like uh the code to be pushed all

the way to production in the very quickly um so it's here like to really improve the velocity and the fact of like embedding like the uh the security uh part of it um so you are able like to catch um you are able like to catch like potential vulnerabilities uh very really early on like you are like actually like proactive and not reactive on those vulnerabilities so once you have detected like vulnerabilities so what you can do is like you need to have a way out to triage those vulnerabilities so it can like it can be detected like when you are like scanning your infrastructure or like uh or like as part of your ci in cd um so you need

like then to think about like how do you uh assess the risk if you accept the risk and when you are planning to resolve it another like thing that we should all get better at as developers it's like trying not to submit like prs with like thousand lines of code that change it's very mean for like the person who is going to review your code and um and it's also like really bad for security i haven't seen like anyone like really like paying close attention to those massive pr's and it's really hard to like to review and uh and no one wants to do it anyway so if you want like

if you really want like somebody like to pay close attention on the logic and think about like security first like trying to always like submit small prs to your peers and then on the process side too i highly recommend to um to schedule like regular uh security audits it can be done like internally can be done like every quarters it can be done like every quarters or every six months every year it's up to you it can be done like you can do like an internal audit or you can also do external i highly also doing both because like like it's always good to have like external eyes and and like get external expertise for

that technology so when you're like managing a whole stack what we do is usually like we're using like different difference in depth so the difference in that is really like kind of like a swiss cheese uh layer uh model where like as you are heading layer then the whole start like filling up so it's the same for like the difference in depth as part of your stack so here like you have the the the perimeter so you can apply perimeter security so meaning like you should not have physical access to your servers or

no one like should like be able like to touch i mean to have physical access to it then network security so meaning like have like the right file i mean firewalls put in place um not have a port range open um or and also like the that involves like the transport layer uh so having making sure like everything is encrypted then the host host level security making sure you are like hardening your your infrastructure meaning like everything is to be updated all the time on the regular fashion so put in place a process around it to make sure that like or automate it oh i

mean ideally it would be automated um making sure like you're always running the latest and greatest uh patches or like uh like on your servers then application security more like embedded as part of the logic here's the data i will like refer it as more as a blockchain and um yeah so number two protect your production environment i mean uh don't like allow ssh to your engineers i would say or trying to think about if your engineer needs ssh it probably means like because you don't have the right in your interface setup and meaning like the interface like

if your developers need access to logs like well you need to use like a log management system or like matrix or eventually like need to pull some data trying to like build and prevent like your employees to really like go and having to ssh in your servers the number three like sounds like kind of obvious but from my experience i've seen a lot of like places where you can see secrets and clear such as like passwords or private keys um so it's always good to remind everyone to encrypt sensitive data um so people like

who are able to get to a different layer uh or like a hacker won't get access to like private keys for example so really use like uh trying to leverage like a secret management system such as vault uh or like if you are using like if you have a cloud provider like there is like secret managers usually that are embedded and then think about like how you are going to move um your uh secrets um how you're moving your secrets from that secret measure and how it's going to live on your uh on inside your docker container for example and then last but not least setting up monitoring and alerting

so it's always good like knowing that we are being hacked i mean always good no sorry it's never good knowing that we're getting hacked but uh but once you know then you can put in place like the right defense process that you should have set up prior to that i know like and and and follow like that process when you're like being hacked it's like you i mean you don't really have the overhead to to think too much so like putting place those pro those process prior really helps you like when there is like urgencies like that do not not to panic and follow the procedure so

the key takeaways here um i would like to say that cyber security is not really everyone's responsibility is really no sorry it is everyone's responsibility in the organization so even if you have like uh an infosec team or people like really specialize in security use them as a resource like talk to them and see like how you can make the difference um how you can help making uh the system more secure at your own level number two is like the complexity is really like the enemy of security well it's actually the enemy of like many

things uh it can be also like if you think about processes uh if like your process is actually too complex like it's gonna be a hard time to be adopted by your employees so sometime like you we don't or like end the code as well like so take time and think about how can you refactor the process or anything that has been complexed because like once you once the process is actually simple then automation becomes simple so then you can have your computer works for you uh and you don't have to have people which are like usually like the the main

bridge the people are like usually the main bridge unlike the security and then the last one i would say like to re always like stay humble perfection isn't impossible and like there's no such thing as like a bulletproof like uh process or system always like question your choices that you have made like six months ago if it's different mean like you have learned and it's great and if it's still the same means like here go you nail it um so where to learn more about security what where i like to start usually is like there is like those series about awesome series on github

so i always go and when i don't know about something i start from there and so awesome devsecops there is an awesome security those are like great uh great place to to start so thank you we also at nomad have a 1 million dollar bug bounty program so get started thank you thank you are there any questions in the

room okay but you will be around for another yeah so if some emerge then perfect then we will wrap up the day with a final panel um held by sebastian and he's not here is john adler here susana is also not here gregory is also not here ariana marina nice okay um give me five minutes yes

this is for you um resources

hi everybody how's everybody doing are you ready for a really exciting conversation all right ariana's coming up coming down she's in the other stage can you go hurt some cats can you hurt some cats like heard people in yeah cat hurting it's an important part of every conference should we deputize anybody else want to volunteer anybody else want to volunteer to go go bring three people back no volunteers no taking all right no takers

cool well um glad to be here with all of you here on this final panel it's really warm in here take this off um yeah it's been it's been an incredible day i think there's been like tons of really great conversations uh you know bringing us here to you know what is the future of the interchange and like where do we go from here as an ecosystem um there's there's a couple of things i i wanted to touch on but first uh please i'd like to have you all introduce yourselves briefly um to our audience hey everybody i'm gregory landay i'm the ceo of rnd inc which maintains the cosmos sdk and is

building region network hello everybody i'm reena stedley i'm from settle one we are both validators and ecosystem contributors for the cosmos ecosystem hi everyone i'm john one of the co-founders and chief research officers that's celestia labs and we're building celestia the first modular blockchain network i'm susanna and i am the product lead for the ibc team at interchain we're working on the ibc specs and the ibc go implementation thank you so as a first question here i think maybe one of the things i like to do is first talk about like

you know the the the problems or the challenges that we face as an ecosystem that we're gonna have to solve uh over the next few years uh and then you know talk a little bit more prospectively about like where we're going as a space so you know in each of yours uh your opinion where where are the big challenge challenge areas uh that the interchange faces moving forward whether you know like on the tech side um you know talking about things like uh building technology that allows us to uh create scalable blockchains or you know whether on the user experience side or adoption or things like that so what are what are your opinions about what are the biggest

challenges we have to face should we go into line again let's go from the other direction yeah let's go there um well i think on a general level blockchain user experience is still pretty horrible and that's like have been an ongoing problem um also i mean from my perspective working on ibc if i'm sure any of you guys have ever done an ibc transaction it's still pretty horrible to do like looking up the channel that you have to have to use manually um i mean there are some advances for instance osmosis have their own front end to do ibc transactions um so seeing user experience improve in that direction i think is going to be

crucial for more extensive adoption um but then generally like cross chain compatibility if we are going to have an interchange future all of these chains need to seamlessly interact with one another and i think hopefully in the future you get to a point where you don't actually really care what like blockchain you're actually using just everything functions as one like thing for the user yeah so to i mean to give a bit of my own experience using ibc uh as someone who has spent a bit more of his time unfortunately in the ethereum land i will say that using ibc is orders of magnitude better ux than anything i've seen uh in any other in any other ecosystem so you know

a lot of amazing work has been done to get ibc to where it is and i'm sure a lot of amazing work will continue be to be done to make it uh the best means of communication across domains i think one of the big challenges that's still kind of open in making ibc as good as it can be is this notion of shared security currently each cosmos zone is an independent domain that has own security mechanism and having a way to have all these zones share the same security and be as secure as each other simultaneously means that you'll be able to have communication across loans that can't be corrupted you would have to corrupt both zones simultaneously instead of just the

source zone so i think this is going to be a pretty big narrative point in the coming months and years how to get shared security across the cosmos ecosystem that's a very good point actually but i wanted to follow up on what susana actually said because coming from a builder perspective and coming from a platform that tried to solve the ux solution it's still very tough and definitely we solved the ibc problem actually we we made it in the one toggle but um on a side note in general when it comes to interoperability not only within the cosmos not only with ibc when it comes to interoperability that is like cross chain meaning you want to connect ethereum near particle salinity

cosmos it's still a harsh process because of the bridging thing and that's something that's definitely going to be addressed in the like shortest period another thing i wanted to talk about is the staker education actually because today we had a wonderful vladivo commons meet up and we touch upon how stakers don't really know what's like what's cosmos how we should contribute to the education in general so that we can actually empower validators that are more um you know professional to vote and to determine the right governance so that's something that's definitely to be addressed as well but overall i think cosmos system is going in the right

direction yeah well so i i guess i want to frame the the question is around what are the challenges um i want to frame my perspective about what the challenges are is everything is kind of born from the tension between sovereignty and coordination and that's a cree that's a like that's a real creative tension and it's a real creative tension that that i want to applaud the ecosystem for like being focused on because really nobody else is focused on that um the challenges that that brings up

there's a bunch of user experience challenges and most a lot of that has to do with how do you coordinate to have a canonical you know registry of channels or or state machines and that's a governance that's a coordination versus just like hey it's a free-for-all do whatever you want which creates a bunch of cognitive overload for users and for operators and everybody so that's like core tension i think is the core sort of creative tension of the space i think um you know i think there's like moving forward how we address that core tension i think we're going to need to mature the thing i think we need to mature

as an ecosystem most with is governance right and it's it's it's governance and coordination around maintenance of libraries maintenance of ibc channel lists maintenance of it's kind of boring governance it's kind of like technocratic boring governance but we need to do it in a transparent and inclusive way because that's what's going to maintain the openness and the dynamism of the ecosystem that's so compelling and exciting for all of us are there any particular libraries or infrastructure pieces that you think have been uh or that have been particularly problematic uh when it comes to governance

um that's a good question i don't know i've the things that on my mind maybe are related to kind of like what's the role of the cosmos hub there's oftentimes conversations that i think start to drift into this which like is the cosmos hub somehow maintaining sort of like an inter-chain naming service is the cosmos hub maintaining uh you know a router for ibc in order to offload some of the coordination issues how do we kind of create central coordination systems in a way that the ecosystem trusts and is sort of neutral enough and isn't extracting value that's that's what's on my mind when i'm thinking

about it so like ibc dnom and naming is a big one of those i think which relates to user experience and ultimately i would put that in a category of a governance problem you could you could monetize it like you could solve that by being like the first to market and being the one that everybody adopts but not really kind of like solving the root issue um or you can solve it in a you know more cumbersome bureaucratic way or we could like choose to not solve it at all and see what happens i'm i also think around that question of governance i mean for instance i think on lots of chains in the ecosystem uh for instance i was reading about there's

always governance proposals um to adjust like incentives on osmosis and people aren't really engaging with those kind of proposals because like the average person doesn't really care about those things so i think there's also kind of a failure in letting people vote on every single thing that nested governance kind of yeah who decides what yeah and for instance things like you can vote um it's a governance vote to update like an ibc like client and like most of the people who are going to vote on this proposal probably don't really like know exactly what they're voting on or don't really like care for instance so like maybe in the future there should be um leveraging more like kind of technical

experts or trusted um kind of authorities who are going to make like technical decisions which like probably the average person doesn't necessarily know or really care about but then obviously this is like trading off some decentralization for greater kind of efficiency i think that the problem you're addressing here is the problem of specialization which is like bound to happen in the space i see like two big challenges from you know extracting from what you guys have said here so there is the specialization problem which means that as uh things get more technically complex and as more people enter the space it's gonna be harder for folks who are not super plugged into the ecosystem to be able to make decisions

about right what's right uh and you know we start to see a little bit of that in cosmos with like some of the uh contentious governance uh votes that have passed in the last couple months that's been really fascinating to watch by the way like i mean looking at that and overlapping that with like you know things that happens or like more macro politics has been really interesting and the other um the other uh challenge you know i think you put it quite well is the challenge of um is the trade-off between sovereignty and coordination and and here i think within the cosmos space i think we have really good technology to facilitate the coordination uh aspect

while maintaining sovereignty but to your point like that starts to follow that starts to to to to fall away once uh you start getting over into other ecosystems and and then you're just like expanding this coordination problem to like a much broader set uh of technologies so you know looking at looking at the the bigger picture yeah i i tend to think of the interchange not just as like cosmos but i like to think of the interchange as like the broader blockchain uh you know decentralized or ledger uh space um how are we going to arrive at coordination and you know maybe maybe to put in perspective let's look at the web right look at the internet and the the amount

of coordination that we have at the base layer like tcp um there's a tremendous amount of uh you know these technologies are are homogenous and then there's a whole lot of uh heterogeneous technologies up the stack and it feels like in crypto it's going to be hard to arrive i'm struggling to figure out how we will arrive at homogeneous coordination at the base layer while dealing with the challenges of specialization and governance and remaining decentralized like i think this is really the tension how do we arrive here like you know this is sort of long-winded but like how do

we get to the the kind of grail of like decentralized technologies with no central control and sovereignty and etc but still maintain uh a homogeneous layer at the base layer everybody's looking at me i i think i ibc i think standards right yeah so i think it has to do with if if you if at the base layer we can have a non-rent-seeking non-political technology that works well that people can adopt iterate and expand that's an open standard which i think is this is

the beauty of cosmos right is that there is an attempt at least to create that you know to use inter blockchain communication protocol to create a standard that then people can you know move up a layer and have more heterogeneity around their state machines and their the specific application logic that they're following you know what they're what who is able to vote on when these sorts of questions what the application does and like getting all the way up in there so i think i mean without being like super just hand wavy i mean i think the answer to that question is ibc uh so i guess i also have a few thoughts

on this which is that uh it sounds like the problem that you're describing is kind of like comparing something like let's say no i you know i the ip right protocol uh tcp protocol and stuff which are you know effectively you know the specification implementation and so on are you know public goods you can't really profit off of them uh but they form a neutral a political base layer that you can build applications on top of uh in the blockchain space like you said we have blockchains which are inherently political which are inherently not necessarily for-profit but they're rent-seeking in certain ways so you know this is like fundamentally blockchain the blockchain blockchain protocols start at a different point than something like a tcp protocol

the suggestion of you know some sort of committee some sort of apolitical standard seems to be a reasonable one although if the standard is designed by a single protocol then you get into the point that it's effectively just a mechanism for implementing some piece of the protocol itself rather than actual rather than an actual standard so if anything if you really want to have some sort of you know neutral standard that works not just in the cosmos chain uh in the cosmos ecosystem but that works across the entire interchain including other chains such as ethereum such as potential maybe not bitcoin uh but such as you know ethereum solana avalanche what have you you know across all the chains across

all the interchange uh potentially it would be good to have something like a shared standards body that is funded by all of these protocols together that can make apolitical decisions uh since it's not subservient to any single protocol of course how close are we to having that with i don't think we're any close not close if i had to place my bets i would say it's not going to happen in the next 10 years but it'll be nice this is really interesting because like you know in the web like we do have these bodies we have like the web 3 and we have ieee i'm not exactly sure w3c w3 sorry web3 w3c yes um i'm not exactly sure

if people think those are or if there's some amount of corporate capture of those for sure bodies and i think that you know the the ethos of the of of crypto and like decentralized technology is like not have this capture because it introduced it introduces points of centralization and perhaps of uh coercion um you know i'm going to throw that as another point of tension here uh or like as another like sort of issue uh that we'll need to arise i guess like you can can we arrive at truly decentralized technologies with you know like no central point of control or you know is there always going to be sort of like

a point where there could be capture uh of of the of either the tech or the or the applications or the standards i think that's a philosophical question more than a technological one and i i guess my answer is i love to talk about philosophical questions around kryptos yeah well it's i think the my answer to that is this will always be a dynamic tension and they'll always be sort of a evolution evolutionary process that is moving back and forth between the incentives and the desire to capture something in order to extract value from it and the incentives and the needs to

create sort of space and freedom and push against that and that's going to kind of go back and forth a lot and i think you know you could that that happens in different levels i personally see ibc as a sort of like a tool i would say that many of the network many of the blockchain networks currently end up sort of like in a position of some sort of like coercive economic sort of like forcing function to try like pulling people you want everybody needs to be on this and you kind of get a cultural thing and a tribalism occurs around it and in some ways ibc is

actually kind of like the antidote to that at this at this moment from my perspective because i think it's fairly light what it prescribes you know you need fast finality kind of like it's but it's also uh that the ecosystem is young so not so like from what we're seeing kinda i guess it's the general tendency of like big companies coming over to the places what's gregory basically mentioned so and yeah basically i believe that the um with the development of cosmos with the more applications and more like niches coming to the ecosystem in general it will be more of the companies trying to get over

so yeah i think like uh i mean there's in the history of the world there's like multiple ways that standards form and like for instance you could have a committee that's kind of saying this will be the standard or sometimes they can just emerge on their own based on like everyone is literally using this thing so therefore this becomes like the standard that everyone's using so um it's not inconceivable that that could based on like utilization uh be like natural standards developing in the ecosystem and obviously like i think we're all hoping or thinking that ivc may become one of these standards in the long term so i think it would be cool to have this like body of all the blockchains coordinating but

it may not be necessary as well and long term things could just um emerge in other ways but i do think that the cosmos has the potential to actually scale to more like ecosystems and from our like like bad dreams if that makes sense so basically it can be an additional layer like a deep tech layer that can actually connect a various ecosystem not like 100 bridges but like the built-in solution to easily connect various ecosystems not like it ibc is nailing it like no wonder but if we can create a kind of layer that's um that's has the potential to actually scale to various like ecosystem and establish cross-chain

applications so the cosmos will have an opportunity to share this standard and to actually to provide it to you the like the general uh practice to all of this so if that that's possible it's also kind of far away from now i guess uh so with respect to uh ibc being an emergency standard uh potentially one counterpoint is that uh you know the requirements for ibc as you said are very little you basically just need fast finality but unfortunately there are a few chains that just inherently as part of their social agreement of the chain itself think that fast finality is a bug and that thinks slow finality is actually a feature

which might hamper the adoption of ibc for those chains for the simple reason that they can't use it what are your thoughts on that um well so you can still use ibc um without having fast finality but it wouldn't be with like a like client implementation so the trust assumptions would be changing in this case but you could still tap into that standard um but you would be compromising on like your security assumptions um and i mean we already see like other chains that want to tap into ibc um not directly like through but for instance axillar is kind of acting as like a gateway for other chains to tap into the ibc ecosystem um like siftain uses like a peg zone to interface with

ethereum not having fast finality so i think we're already seeing these things kind of happening and it's still like early days um but yeah obviously this is like a existing constraint but there are workarounds i guess for what it's worth i did use axler the other day to move stuff from ethereum to the cosmos ecosystem and it was absolutely amazing how fast and efficient it was it was great it's great yeah shout out to explorer yeah yeah unfortunately they couldn't be here i want to hijack the i have a question i i but uh have a question for john and everyone because you had mentioned the the vision for excuse me

interchange security and i think up until now i think most of that conversation has centered around a hub and zones and what i was hearing you say sounded different and exciting and one of the most exciting things for me has been the the idea of sort of nested shared security and governance in which different zones and hubs are co-securing each other in kind of an alliance in which it's not just a simple like we're the security and you're getting it from us but instead we're providing some security with our validator set and

you're providing some security with your validator set it's very exciting is that what you were speaking towards um you know that distinction between sort of like a hub just leasing security to people but more a heterogeneous sort of like security swapping ecosystem of some sort to a certain extent it could be construed like that uh like the notion of you know your your hub and all you're doing is renting out security and that's it and it's like a unidirectional exchange uh i don't think is the end game uh which apparently you imply you don't think it either maybe uh but you know there could be a mutually beneficial relationship where essentially you know by getting security

from uh from you know another chain uh then you can you know contribute fees to that chain uh and essentially reinforce additively and with compounding effect as more chains borrow security in this mechanism uh you can effectively have additive security as more chains use this uh zone so it's not just a purely you know i know it's a parasitic relationship but it's like a mutually beneficial relationship where one side can get security and the other side can provide not just a fixed amount of security but that can provide increasing security uh as more chains use it that's the kind of model that i'm thinking of that's the future of shared

security so a little bit different than my galaxy brain there's like a security co-op of some sort you know i'm like thinking of like nato for instance because what it's secure it's a security alliance right i mean it's a different type of security but it's a useful political metaphor yeah i think i think uh some of the things that uh were being discussed today around uh tenement 2.0 and uh typhoon and you know these sorts of algorithms sort of start to tend towards this this ability to have this nested sort of like i don't know shared security where people are like different zones or in different ecosystems are are um

are sharing their security we could contribute you know i'm thinking of you there's one total maybe it's just before yeah well you know and i think this is a present moment conversation right like regen network we have our a sovereign validator set we also love and support the cosmos hub it you know is there a scenario in which regen network would you know forego our validator set and lease security from the cosmos hub because of some increase in security in some additive economic relationship will we forego our sovereignty or is there a way in which our validator set is is valued in that exchange as well and they maintain you know they're like we're like taking another step it's like

actually with our powers combined you know captain interchain or whatever yeah uh so if you've heard of this notion of sovereign rollups uh from the celestia team which i'm a co-founder of uh the notion of sovereign roll-ups is essentially that you can have a zone a domain that runs on top of celestia and that shares security not with celestia but rather with all other zones and applications that are built on top of celestia and that's where you can get essentially additive security where every one of these uh essentially adds to the total security of everyone uh so it's not just a strictly you know you know what unidirectional relationship now the beauty of sovereign rollups is

that for a variety of these zones who already have their sovereign validator set and who enjoy the privilege of being able to hard fork the chain or soft fork the chain or make governance upgrades with the sovereign roll-up you are not subject to the rules of a particular base layer this is different than ethereum applications where an ethereum application is subject to the governance decisions of the ethereum community or ethereum foundation if if you think it's you know governed by the ethereum foundation uh with the sovereign roll-up on celestia you actually retain sovereignty in your application you can you retain the ability to hard fork and you retain the ability to accrue value to your sovereign token at the application layer so you essentially

gain shared security but you don't give up sovereignty and you don't give up value accrual to your application token effectively getting the best of both worlds how is that different from like if i like just using interchange security to lease from the hub like lease security from hub as an app chain how specifically would entertain security look like i think there's there have been a few proposals for entertained security uh mechanisms like what what mechanism specifically are you thinking of my understanding is that you would

apply to the hub so that's all i'll stop you right there if you want to be different if you want to be a sovereign role in celestia you don't need permission from celebrities maybe that's the core difference between sort of like the proposed hub interchange security system in which hub votes to say yes you're accepted and will sort of grant security and the celestia vision in which there's sort of permissionless ability to um access that security we're uh we could go on here for a long time uh i didn't even ask all my questions uh but we're gonna have to wrap this up

here because we're we're uh we're conscious of everybody's time and there's a cocktail going on upstairs i'd like to ask one last question is like what's the you when you think of the interchange in you know let's let's talk about reasonable time frames here say like you know five years uh what does that look like what's the topology of the interchange look like uh this is something i think that i think about a lot is like the topology of the interchange network uh in fact the interrupt the podcast that i host like the tagline is we study and we try to understand the topology of of the interchange and the technologies that make it up so yeah what does that look like in in your guys's view in five years you told well whatever time frame you're thinking about maybe

you're thinking hundred year time frames but like cross-chain applications like on a built-in level so that i can i don't know borrowing one blockchain like item and then go for repayment another which is a kind of a cool use case for cosmos and when we first joined the ecosystem that was our you know main vision so and the cross chain applications that are enabled for average users so no need to you know to dig deeper and from the ux perspective it should be more of a you know couple of click solution so that's what i'm thinking but it's not like five years not even maybe around

ten so but we're developing uh i would expect within you know five years which is a very reasonable amount of time when you first said a reasonable amount of time i was i thought you wouldn't say one year or something and i was about to you know stop you and be like no this is not reasonable but five years pretty good i would expect actually that we would see some emergent adoption of ibc across the interchain not just uh within you know cosmos just not just within a cosmos ecosystem but rather i would expect that we would see independent implementations of ibc across many many different chains and we already see one happening i think near protocol recently announced they had native americans there had the beefy like client for

parachains and also their near light client there you go so to expect not just not just two now which is news to me i would expect you know many many hundreds potentially thousands of chains outside uh you know developed outside the cosmos ecosystem to adopt uh ibc as a uh interchange communication protocol i'm sorry and is near like building a bridge or how it will look like um so i think the work is the collaboration between composable and uh the near foundation are also obviously collaborating with them and so they'd make like a light client implementation so that they can use the ibc transport layer uh with a near-light client and then you'd use a tendermint like client

as well to go to cosmos chains or the beefy like client to connect near to power chains as well okay thank you greg any final thoughts um well i think you're going to see what we're talking what we're calling blockchains being used for municipal elections and local mutual credit systems and i think you're going to see it also being used for like global nested jurisdictional carbon accounting where you know big agencies like the u.n or nation states and public blockchains are all interoperating and i think that that

that's going to be running you know on ibc as sort of like the the base transport layer but people are going to be choosing a pretty wide variety of different you know development frameworks so i think a lot of it will happen in the cosmos ecosystem cosmos sdk you know cosmos and i think there's going to be really strong adoption of that but i also think you're going to see you know significant amount of work happening with other toolkits and i guess um you know the political dimension to that is i think there's going to be pressure and need and in five years quite a bit of um

kind of like blockchain alliance stuff that is not happening with the traditional like hey let's just swap tokens before genesis but instead is going to be established existing blockchains figuring out how to do essentially like blockchain mergers and acquisitions basically and you're going to start to see that happen incentive alignment will take place and it's going to be pretty weird and fun very cool looking forward to that weird fun stuff thank you thanks to all of you and thanks all of you for sticking around on this last panel [Applause] panel selfie

all right great well i'll i'll keep the i'll keep the uh closing remarks oh yeah um we'll ask the questions upstairs [Laughter] so just quick quick uh quick closing remarks here uh you know i know you guys all want to get a drink and it's it's really warm in here um i mean it's been a fantastic day i'm so so thrilled with how everything's uh went here today and uh just yeah i couldn't be more happy to be here with all of you um i've got a lot you know we've gotten lots of great feedback from everyone uh about the venue about the food about the vibe and so i i hope you guys all had a great

time uh i had the time of my life here today um a couple people thank uh once again i want to thank the team that made this possible so ibrahim abubakari who is somewhere uh you know probably not here um who uh helped organize the event found the venue got us all the great food uh made sure everybody was comfortable today uh the volunteers oh there he is give this guy a round of applause right here this dude um the the volunteers uh who you saw at the registration desk and all around today uh thanks so much to them for being here let's yeah volunteers

[Applause] and uh yeah preet who i hope is watching the live stream uh who came up with all the great branding and everything and also la kazan marian and the whole like is on team the security uh they've been great and also the catering and everything so yeah this is it this is never the summer edition number one next year we'll do it even bigger and hope to see you guys all again next year thank you [Applause] oh and of course i want to really thank our our mcs yuri and aaronest who uh you know ensure the a smooth transition between all the talks and

um yeah keeping time and hurting speakers thanks so much to them as well [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

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