🚨LIVE: Tokenized Capital Summit In Miami Consensus Week

Transcript

Heat. Heat. Thank you, son. Lord, we'll see you around the timeline. Feels

good to be back. >> I think The Rollup is one of the most premier media brands in crypto and Andy and Robbie are great experts at everything they talk about and it's my favorite podcast. >> Adding it to my library potentially multi-chain deployments. >> We are at the connect day one here. You guys see? Heat. Heat.

JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish. >> He said it. HE FINALLY SAID IT. So bullish. >> It is bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. Heat. Heat.

Heat. Heat. Corola is headed to the top and we're

We're not already at the top. We're going to the top. >> Roll up is my favorite. >> From all walks of life, all over the world, all over this industry come together for the roll up. Zoom out. The institutions aren't

coming. They're simply here. It's the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. Zoom out. The institutions aren't coming. They're simply here. Taste the golden age of crypto, guys. Get right. Let's go. >> Welcome to the next. See you on the show. >> Capital Summit. Ladies and gentlemen, it is May 4th. There is a Star Wars joke in there to be made, but I don't think we're going to make one today because

it's not the industry of Star Wars anymore. It is the industry of suits. I don't know how we got here, but somehow we did. Rob, nice suit, man. >> One day, the industry of Star Wars will return again. But for now, we're in suits and we're live from Gamma Prime tokenized Capital Summit in Miami Beach. And man, does it feel good to be here. Um, you know, typically it's warm in Miami, but you know what? You're inside and the AC's going so it's a little cooler in Miami so I got the jacket on. How you feeling? It's been a few days since you had been on the show. El Salvador. How was it?

>> Surfing a lot. Went to Bitcoin Beach. Went to the Bitcoin farmers market. There is an absolute massive community of Bitcoiners down there. Building out like a whole new kind of like nation state in El Salvador. 5 years ago was the most dangerous country in the world by homicide rate. today. It is literally the safest Latin American country I've ever been to. Probably been to about 15 countries in South America and Central America. And it was insanely safe and very very beautiful. Guys, we've got Michael Van Pape, a friend of uh of mine from X, part of the altcoin sherpa era 2017. The TA gods. These guys were moving markets back in 2017. Not sure what they're moving anymore. Perhaps

just uh praying for a bull market. We're going to talk with Michael. Let's get him on. Michael, welcome to the show. >> Thank you very much. Thanks for being here man. >> Pleasure to pleasure to have you here, Michael. >> Thanks for coming by. How you uh how are you finding Miami? >> Uh pretty good, actually. It's a little bit hot, but uh we flew away in from Amsterdam on Saturday. >> It's okay. I like it. >> Beautiful. I like it. >> Yeah, man. >> Go ahead. >> There's just a Money 2020 conference coming up in Amsterdam as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's one of the biggest uh finance European conferences that are taking place. It's huge and very expensive by the way.

>> And so, so what are you doing here uh in Miami? What what is the you know your your purpose here in the tokenized capital summit? >> What are you hoping to get get out of this? >> For this primarily we were looking for allocators for our funds. >> Okay. >> Um other than that, the coming few days I'll be doing your job. So I'll be doing podcast interviews and uh being on stage but primarily podcast interviews. >> Yeah. Tell us more about your fund. I I was unaware actually. I saw that you had this kind of uh new X account, but what's how how did this start? What is the fund? What's the kind of thesis?

>> Well, um I always wanted to have a fund, but I never felt I was ready for it. And I think that within the Netherlands, the funds that exist are not really good. They either are building a basket of tokens and then praying for a bull market to happen or they are market neutral. And I wanted to be in the middle there. And that's why we created a multistrategy hybrid fund. It's a lot of words but uh it's three strategies in one in which we try to aim for a return in any market condition. Um we have a vault trading strategy in there. We have fundamental tokens that we that we buy as a basket but depending on the structure of the market we allocate more or less and then we do a lot of OTC trading. I

>> I'm most curious about the fundamentals of the market that you're talking about. What are you targeting? I mean, we've we've had back and forth conversations about how Bitcoin has gotten institutionalized. Zcash feels like the new Bitcoin. There's obviously the entire DeFi complex. When you're looking about fundamentals, what kind of fundamentals are most attractive from an allocator's perspective? >> Um well, use case is if they have a lot of um activity on the chain itself. One of the prime tokens that we hold is near just simply because of the amount of revenue that it generates and the growth rate that it currently has. And then you can start model it for the coming years to come. And then you can start build a a fuel where you can say well the current price is heavily underpriced

based on market circumstances not on the token itself. >> But I need to be honest that 95% actually 99% of the tokens have no purpose have no value. And even if they have a value, stuff like a can still happen. Yeah. >> So a is one of the tokens that we hold. But then if something else happens within the ecosystem, you can still have a draw down on the position itself. So it's not easy. That's why they are not having big allocations within the fund and most of it is actually the vault trading. But these are the core principles of it and that's why most of the tokens don't have an allocation with us.

>> Yeah man. I'm curious to understand how you're thinking about investing in this market compared to when you started, right? 2015, 2016, 2017, right? Like how how much has changed in the way that you approach the markets now, right? Like back then it was much more is much less sophisticated in in the sense that the average participant had less understanding of what was happening compared to now. Whether it be unlocks, VCs, dumping, market makers, decentralized exchange, cabal, there's so many different factors now. And then throw in kind of this institutional era like what has materially changed? Like how has your strategy changed as you navigate the current the current market versus back then?

>> Oh man, I want to go back in time. 2017 was so much fun be and I back in the day it was just retail traders trading against retail traders. Everybody had the same information and knew what to trade on. And the current markets are just as you explained super complex with a lot of insider info. Like for instance, we have taken some OTC deals back in 2025 and those were so large that you can actually just see what the price was doing and when the unlocks were going to come which were not publicly available but they were trying to lure in some people into that position and then you the unlock happens and people start to sell or the investors start to sell and retail again gets hammered on it. So when it comes to

investing in the markets right now, it's either you need to just stick to Bitcoin and eat or you need to dedicate your entire life and find the edge of some particular projects or strategies and that is just getting harder and harder. >> Yeah, this is the barbell approach that we've thought about for so long. We've also tal talked about this in reference to you know consumerf facing applications like poly market call she have found some product market fit and then on the other side you have infrastructure. you know, the infrastructure feels like it's just continuously getting commoditized. Do you see this the same way? Do you think we're going to get another L1 trade? Do you think we're going to get another piece of net new unlock when it comes to remember how innovative like the unis swap xk model was? It feels like we

haven't got something like that in so long with AI. Maybe it's becoming easier than ever, but then it also feels like it's never going to come again. It's been so long. Do you think we're going to get some unlock that's going to unlock new infrastructure or do you think consumer facing applications is where a lot of the new founders should focus? >> I hope we get one. I was actually thinking that DeFi would have been that unlock already. >> Um they are getting battle tested right now and I ultimately believe that with the Clarity Act and the fact that stable coins, >> the markets of stable coins have been growing but the Genius Act isn't yet applicable. It's later this year that it starts to be applied.

>> So I assume that within stable coins and DeFi, we will see that big unlock taking place and the convergence between AI and crypto is going to be massive. >> Yeah, >> I think that the entire market is undervaluing how big that is, but it's not obvious. And I think really finding stuff like smart contracts through Ethereum or Salana as an unlock or hyperlquid is the most recent one. I feel like they are obvious in hindsight. They are not obvious in the moment itself. So I think that some protocols that are building right now maybe bits tensor maybe near maybe some other ones there that are actually building some really cool stuff in 6 months time we

will talk about it like yeah it was so obvious. >> So your so your AI thesis here for the kind of crypto market is very much like bit tensor and near as like the two leaders there. >> Two categories I think bit tensor and near but also decentralized compute is going to be massive. >> Okay. The reason is that you you just need more compute for AI, >> right? >> Um, and everything is still centralized. And I think the topic will quite quickly switch towards decentralized comput. >> You know what we haven't seen so far? Despite all of the hoopla around data centers, you know how they say 40% of the data centers are not getting built out. They agree, they contribute all of this money and then they don't get built out. They get struck down for regulatory reasons or political reasons. We haven't

yet heard how decentralized compute can can help that. If if all of these data centers don't get built out, we still need the compute. It can be brought to the market via this decentralized distributed network. All of us can contribute the latent compute from our computers doesn't need to be there from data centers. Is this part of the thesis or generally how do you see decentralized compute fitting into the more centralized compute market like data centers? >> It's a tough one because the first question is do you actually need decentralized compute? And if you look at Nvidia and all those bigger ones, you I think you want to have control over the compute that you use and you want to have efficient compute and you want to have a market that is even stronger

which is fully decentralized in order that if there is any attacks or whatsoever that you still can continue to use the entire chain or entire ecosystem. So decentralized compute I think there is a use case for but we still need to find the fit for that. Um a lot of protocols are working on it. Uh load VM is a protocol that works on RWE filecoin render they are all working on this particular niche. Uh decentralized AI verifiable AI true tokens all those things will be really big because now it's just the prime focus is to use use AI but everybody wants to have control over how they use AI. They want to have privacy when they use AI. So all these factors will become bigger. Yeah, I'd

imagine open-source AI or decentralized AI runs on decentralized compute. You're probably familiar with Venice, the Eric Vorhees, you know, privacy enabled LLM. Well, it would make sense to me that, you know, something like a Venice would rely on something like a like a decentralized compute like an AOS because in this sense, you don't have a centralized bottleneck, right? All these other players have more verticalized stacks, but in the decentralized world, you don't want to be one of these onchain protocols that has AWS, right? Or like a centralized front end. If you're building a decentralized stack, you want the entire thing to be decentralized from from top to bottom.

>> Mhm. Actually, that's a good point. like all the attacks that have been taking place on Cloudflare, AWS and all those things. That's the reason why we need decentralized compute or decentralized servers in order to continue and have an higher uptime versus to what it used to be. >> Yeah. >> But the complexity is how are you going to build these decentralized service and and systems when they are so complex. >> Yeah. >> That's like the the balance that we need to like figure out how that you can't like Akash is a great product >> but If I look at Jensen and if what he's building or all those serves I man I a small team cannot build that.

>> They make it so easy. >> Yeah. It's just not worth it. >> No. So that's what we need to figure out in order to get there. But the reason that we want to have decentralized on everything is one you want to have control yourself and two you want to have higher up time. >> Right. >> And I I think the pendulum feels like it's swinging back. It feels like, you know, for for the hyperlquid era, it was like, okay, four validators, we're okay with that. Like, you can make a lot of money just with four validators. You don't need a lot of decentralization. Then you see these one of one DVN constructions, layer zeros, kelps, these sorts of things. We say, "Oh, we actually built these decentralized systems for a reason. We actually need decentralization." And so now it feels like the pendulum is swinging back and

we'll start to see decentralization more embedded into some of these conversations. Yeah, I fully agree on that. I don't know about like hyperlquid is a great example, but it's still a lot of questions on how things are executed there or what the future can be there. >> Um I do not see it as a decentralized exchange entirely. >> Mhm. >> But it is a great product and that's why it's getting so much attraction. >> Yeah. >> Are are you bullish on Zcash? >> Actually, I am bullish on privacy. Yes. I'm not sure about Ccash either. >> You're not sure about Zcash? At this point, I feel like, well, that ship has already gone. I'll just take the next one. Yeah, >> it's been on a tear as of last 100 or something. Yeah, but

>> I used to I'm trading crypto. So, if the thing is just flying off, I feel like there are so many other opportunities out there. But I can be wrong. It can go 10x, 20x. If all those big guys are still talking about Ccash, >> for sure it can. I'm happy to miss the boat. >> Yeah. Yeah. So this uh I think this week uh Micro Sailor Stretch product is going to have its next set of dividends be uh unlocked and then thus more capital is going to be able to enter this product and then he's going to have more buying power for Bitcoin. I think he's up to like a couple billion now in terms of this product size. people are a bit worried about how big this product can get until it's uh you know until there's not a material rise in the price of

Bitcoin to kind of support the product. How do you think about what Michael Sailor's doing and then how it how it impacts what Tom Lee's strategy might be with ETH and Bitmine? I think that we'll probably see him launch a similar product to Stretch as well for ETH. What do you think about these two guys kind of changing the way institutional market adoption of crypto is happening specifically for these two big assets? >> I think Jack Mus said it correctly or even someone else was it that if people are willing to borrow money to Michael Seder at a 11 or 12% rate then you should be happy to take that money and invest it into Bitcoin knowing that the growth rate is like 40%ish.

I'm not sure whether Michael Sailor strategy is going to last when there's going to be a five, six year ban market. That's going to be tricky. >> But if he's not doing it, someone else will. >> So in that perspective, I'm like, yeah, why not, man? Just get that stupid Bitcoin price up and then we can start seeing some more flows happening again. And I think that's that's what is super important here. If we get Bitcoin up, VCs start to deploy again, the entire sentiment starts to switch, and then we can start getting that innovation again. Yeah, >> but other than that, we'll see in the future whether Michael Seder is going to be right or not.

>> If Bitcoin goes to a million and he's still going to be right, he's going to be one of the richest guys in this world. >> Yeah. >> Well, congrats for that, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Do you think um do you think that this So, we had all these kind of, for lack of a better term, suits come on the show last year, like Q2, Q >> to Q4, and they were basically like the four-ear cycle is over. Yeah. >> And obviously you've had this conversation before, but I'm just curious what your current read is, right? like all all of these institutional allocators are saying like guys like don't be bearish here. Like Bitcoin's going to, you know, overtake 85 90K. We're going to get back into kind of like this bullish market much faster than people expect. We're not going to have to wait till Q4 for a

bottom. You know, where where do you think we are at right now? What are your levels that you're watching for for the current environment on Bitcoin specifically? What are we waiting for here? >> So, if you go onto social media, everybody says October is going to be the bottom, >> right? But if you go back to what these guys have been saying in 2024, I'm sure nobody was expecting Bitcoin to do an all-time high prior to the holing. So the markets are constantly surprising. And if you look at the structure of Bitcoin and what it has been doing, it never captures more of a downside volatility than the upside has been. So the upside has been two sigma as it is called. The downside has been exactly the same. So there's no reason to go

deeper than we have been going. And if you look at it from the semantics of Bitcoin versus gold, the reason that Bitcoin has been selling off when gold has been going up is because if you have a basket of gold and Bitcoin and the gold vault goes up, your risk goes up for the entire portfolio. So you need to sell the other one. And gold volatility has now gone down. So that's why you start to see the ETF flows coming into Bitcoin again. last Friday was like 600 million >> that continues to last and continues to build up as long as gold goes down and volatility goes down.

>> So I think that we are in the accumulation phase. I think that 93k or like 90k is where we probably find a resistance go back down again. Everybody will be saying it's a bare market or will continue to be and then we start to swing back up after the clarity act. So I think the chances of a bottom being in is significantly large. >> Yeah. the the uh analytics that you shared the deviation away uh is very very compelling as we look at Bitcoin specifically how much do you look at markets that are adjacent look at stocks you mentioned gold you know some of these things you know S&P's pushing 7200 now do you think it's helpful for for Bitcoin you know if stocks continue to charge upwards it's kind of adds to the

wealth effect other people have said hey why am I going to go into crypto when I can continue to allocate into stocks and just continue to get these amazing returns. Do you think stocks need to come down in order for the the reallocation or the or the uh the pivot if you will, the rotation into crypto to return? >> No, I think gold needs to come down. So, what the idea is is that >> if the uncertainty in the world goes up, the first thing you sell is Bitcoin. It's the riskiest asset out there. That's why in February saw it crashing down, then the NASDAQ came after that 3 weeks later. If you use the inverse on that, which is when the markets go up or when the markets become less uncertain, when some peace in the Middle East starts to take place, the first thing

they will buy will not be Bitcoin, but it will be the NASDAQ >> because of the fact that it's less riskier. You go into those assets first and then later Bitcoin. >> Okay. >> So, if you look at the statistics of any of those bounces, the NASDAQ goes first and then Bitcoin follows with like three to four weeks after that. >> Interesting. >> And then altcoins are just way down the line. So, it makes sense that the NASDAQ goes up and then Bitcoin follows through and we need the NASDAQ to stay strong and then the money flows into Bitcoin. There's a reason why at the beginning of the month the ETF flows are so positive for Bitcoin is because of this entire methodology.

>> Mhm. So, I'm very positive and I think that Ethereum is going to get killed for a little bit longer, but the money goes into Bitcoin, we stabilize higher, some verticals will start to do well, and then later in the year, we start to see Ethereum do well. >> Yeah. I mean, last thing on this note on this kind of uh capital rotation, I think the other big headwind right now for the industry is the AI trade that's happening. there's like this like bottleneck trade, semiconductors, storage, memory, and then also you have these massive three IPOs coming. SpaceX, anthropic, open AI this year. I'm kind of developing this idea that as these IPOs come into market and launch Q2 and the Q2, Q3 into Q4, there'll be a lot of that AI speculative capital that likely

wants to to rotate, take profits from those names and rotate somewhere else. I'm developing a thesis that they're probably going to rotate that at least some of it into Bitcoin. A lot of those early investors are also crypto investors. They have a history in this industry. How much do you think this AI trade is affecting the attention and capital rotating in into crypto? Is it just purely a gold kind of commodities attention market or is this AI kind of hype public markets launch affecting how investors are allocating to crypto? It's interesting because AI has gotten the entire hype right now, but smart investors will take their positions from AI and move it elsewhere. And the only asset class that still has a lot of

upside to get there is crypto. >> There's no asset class out there that can yield the upside as crypto can. >> And if you're a smart investor, you're in one of those rounds of the AI companies, it's going to drop off from a cliff. >> Yeah. There's no sense of a listing at two trillion to be actually making sense. It's just a peak boom market mania that we're seeing on the indices or whatsoever. So I think that the money rotation will happen and most of that money from AI is probably going to go in anything else from Bitcoin and Ethereum.

Bitcoin is just a gold play and if the gold market cap stays as it is, Bitcoin can go 5x from here and still not reach the same market cap in terms of percentage as it was in 2021. Yeah. Yeah. Michael, man, enjoy the rest of your week in Miami. Thank you for joining us. Hope you have a good content. Hope you raise some good capital for the fund. And >> thank you very much. Good luck, guys. >> Thanks, man. >> Thanks. >> All righty, guys. We will be right back with our next guest coming up here at the Tokenization Capital Summit in Miami. Give us just a sec and we'll be right back.

we're using. Um, and so for a lot of people, there's kind of been a bit of a rerating experience. So, um, you know, the IPO bag in the cryptoland has been a pretty mixed bag. You've had some some a couple of winners, but, you know, some quite painful reratings of terminal value, think of Gemini, etc. Um, so I think there's just kind of that that first piece. The M&A angle is, yeah, super interesting. Uh, there's going to be a lot more of it. The thing I'm actually way more interested in is we're one of the biggest investors in well one of the bigger investors in a company called Bending Spoons which is the web two equivalent where they basically go in um and they go and buy very overhyped previously overhyped um kind of web two companies which are trading you know you can pick up for fractions on the dollar

um and they go and basically do an M&A rollup of those sort of and they strip it take the technology that works and then re-mbed it and I'm very excited to find a web 3 version of that in the next 3 to 5 years I think we bit more of the cycle needs to come through but there's particularly things we're starting to see it slightly with things like tokenization transfer agents these kind of transfer agency live instances which are hanging about in companies which you know don't necessarily match to some of the parts valuation so that's an interesting one to check out for >> I would agree with that I mean we have a portfolio company called inversion that's doing precisely that right like they're finding businesses in the real world that could benefit from stable coin payments or from some of the

benefits that we're now seeing on chain and and they're looking to acquire that, bring that in house to then integrate the value. I think on the M&A and and IPO front, it's just healthy, right? That's the mechanism that you know traditional capital markets use to to be effective and we went through a window perhaps pre uh bridge acquisition from stripe where there was no major exits in in our ecosystem and and that was just a point in time in which there was just a lot of vibe investing and unclear in terms of what's actually uh exit value. So we have a few more data points now. I would I would argue it's still not nearly enough to to sort of make sense of some of the stuff you'll see in preede seed and and series A, but I think um there's a lot more to come on

on that front and that'll give us the the information and and ability to sort of think through what's what markets are valuing in this in this particular stage. >> I I'd say that it just ups the ante on, you know, kind of founders and founding teams to get your regulatory strategy right if you need one. um you know it takes a lot of time to get licenses and or to get exemptions or no actions or whatever you need. Um and so to the extent that you're building something that where that's going to be relevant, you have to figure that out quickly because you can't exit if you don't have that right. You're never going to get through diligence.

>> Yeah. just just to kind of go back to my original thing just because you can should you you know um what I think is crypto went through um it's first round of regulation but tokenization is going to come and as you clarify some of the tokenizations um regulation you might not need to IPO you might just develop deeper public markets right and that's something to be aware of in the future is like that traditional frame set. That's what tokenization is disrupting and it just needs a little bit more help to allow that to fully happen.

>> Awesome. Thank you guys so much for your thoughts. Uh please give a >> All righty guys, welcome back to the rollup. Here we are live at tokenized capital summit with our friends from Gamma Prime. We're here with Todd Alt bringing the alt blockchain live. Todd, welcome to Miami. It's good to see you. Welcome to the show, man. >> Happy to be here. >> Great to have you. Absolutely. Well, I love >> the crowd, by the way. It's pretty pretty packed. >> Oh, yeah. It is. It is packed. And they got us right in the thick of things here. >> Web web 3 is alive. >> It really is. >> And so, tell us uh tell us about your approach to web 3 and maybe a little bit of background about yourself.

>> I spent 36 years on Wall Street, started at Dean Witter, uh went to Credential, ran long only accounts, ran a hedge fund, broker dealers, etc. And about I think about 2011, started mining Bitcoin. Kind of messed everything up you could think of. I I really feel like I'm the poster child for every mistake you could make in web 3 um or DeFi. I've just, you know, sold 5,000 Bitcoin at $5, done all the stupid [ __ ] you could ever do. You know, I know this a live program hopefully. Can I use the word [ __ ] Um and so what happened was is we're a public company on the New York Stock Exchange. We got a lot of assets.

We were a a holding company. We're in four countries and now we're separating the company and I'm taking the sort of web 3 tradi component and um and it really became clear to me we were de we were because I was a Bitcoin miner still am I have a big facility in Michigan 30 megawws expandable to 340 I mine a lot of Bitcoin not I'm not huge but I'm relatively good size u we were debanked so many times like I just cannot when I say we were debanked 10 times I'm not exaggerating it probably was more than that so bad that my wife lost her Girl Scout cookie account cuz she was associated with me. Really bad debanking. And that set this this stage for me to figure out like what are the payment rails? How can I create a

system? So if you look at we're really dog fooding everything we do. So we're a trading firm. We we we I've been you running a hedge fund for a lot of years. And so what we did is we're building every tool we want in our own ecosystem and then making it available. So we built a with uh BH Harvest out of Korea. We built a a layer 1 blockchain on Cosmos SDK. It's EVM compatible and then we we basically build everything for ourselves and then open open it up for everyone to be part of it. So we launched uh mainet on May on March 2nd and we we launched our decks our per decks and other things starting over the next couple months really dog fooding everything.

>> Congratulations. Maynet is no no small fee. Yeah, you know, it's we we run a real real um node motivated. So, we have a million nodes and they're they really do real work. So, it's really proof of work and then obviously you can stake after that. So, we took it very seriously. Uh we wanted to be as close to Bitcoin as we could in terms of because I'm a bit ironically I'm a Bitcoin purist like I that's really why I started in 2011 and I we have a lot of Bitcoin. We have a treasury for our public company. Ironically, a lot of times the cash in the Bitcoin is larger than our public market cap. So it tells you kind of things are dis disconnected a little bit. GPUs trades on the New York American and it just uh >> it just can't really get much of a bid.

I think people are it's too complicated. So, we've agreed to separate it next year and have the the data the mega the 300 megawatt data center and the robotic business and the the blockchain business from mining as one company and then sort of our all capital group which is which is one of the big node operators that will separate into a public company with all of our other private equity. But we're really about uh global tokenization. So, we're tokenizing silver. We're going to tokenize gold. We're going to tokenize platinum and everything we do to tokenize because we have an issue with real world assets.

They don't really trade that. That's kind of the hard thing to do. So, we don't tokenize anything that we don't want to trade ourselves. >> So, we effectively also are the market maker. We have another division for that. And we're bringing whether any real world assets we bring, we want to own them and we want to motivate people to own them too. >> Yeah. when you're thinking about this kind of infrastructure buildout from the kind of this large warehouse that you have and also your uh blockchain project alt, how do you see them combining? Like is there a convergence happening between like kind of like this AI infrastructure buildout and what ALT is doing on the blockchain side? How do you kind of think about this convergence between AI and blockchain more more broadly?

>> Well, it's it's a great wow, that's a great question. Um so we have a business called ask ROI which is a aggregator of all the large language models. We run the video servers in our uh our data center right now. We run it for inference for ourselves and inference for other people. But ultimately I think that data center uh which is has a robotic component to it. We just became the largest of dealer in North America for robots because of AGI bought. We have a deal with them now. So we're bringing we just we're bringing robots to the United States for data testing. We're doing egocentric data testing. So I look at it this way. I think that everything effectively is AI, robotics, and blockchain. That's our core theme, which is those are all interacting. And so it's almost painful to put in your

head like how explosive that is because on the at the same time, we think that all the robots we have with AGI, we have a business called Omnipresent Robotics, which is part of Hypers Scale. That's part of the problem with Hyperskll. Too much in one pot. you know, I thought it was going to be a hybrid private equity firm. The market doesn't buy that. Although we have raised a lot of money, about 700 million. Um, I think the convergence of all those technologies, blockchain, AI, and robotics is the is the key theme, right? So, I think that if you look at web 3, you're going to have all these AI bots connecting and talking to each other. There's going to be payment rails that are really instantaneous that are using the blockchain. Um, we have our own project around something called Bitcoin Max, which is a Swissbased trust with a

Swissbased trustee with a Swiss bank. We got a no action letter from Finma and we're issuing Bitcoin Max. So, we're taking Bitcoin and putting into a trust and then we're tokenizing Bitcoin Max to the Satoshi level. So, one Bitcoin is 100 million Satoshi's that we think that's going to be a payment rail. We got it issued as a payment token. So, we're really motivated around those themes, AI, blockchain, and robotics. Yeah, we had Kathy Wood on like last week and she was extremely extremely bullish about this convergence between these three technologies. You >> did she actually say the same thing? >> Yeah, basically that's great. A lot of how the these robotics and technologies are starting to converge.

>> I'm a big fan of hers for sure. I because she's cuz she's full risk on. So I love that part. You know, that's kind of my theme. >> I can tell that. >> Yeah, I'm a risk on guy. I I've uh been doing this for 37 years in Tradfi. And to be candid with you, if it wasn't for Trump, I would have never really launched the blockchain. But cuz I tried to do it a few years ago and they debanked me and the government's really paved the way now for innovation. They paved the the Trump administration whether you like him or not is really paving the way for this technology to be adopted globally. I and I I love what he's doing around that space.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And you know we're we're seeing some some more positive news around the Clarity Act just today. The yield issue seems to be resolved. Hopefully it gets >> the yield issue. I think when you when you see the banks resisting that yield issue >> you kind of know you ever you ever know like there was probably at time you guys are too young for this but there was something called the pager there was a big push to like keep pagers around right but you'd never use a pager now right so when you have a bank saying hey we don't want to let you make money on a stable coin it's kind of it's kind of proof that the innovation's here and there's not much you could do about it I think what you're going to see >> is global adoption you're going to see

JP Morgan just basically dominate that space And and it's it reminds me a lot of the legalization of marijuana, which is the people who were selling marijuana before it was legalized didn't want it legalized cuz once you legalize and tax it, it changed the whole dynamic, right? And then it got too a little bit diluted. But I think this technology unlike uh cannabis this technology is so uh gamechanging across all you know validation manufacturing it hopefully even though uh you know you see people like Elizabeth Warren talk about uh crypto being used for the wrong thing.

Well no one's ever used the dollar for anything wrong. I mean don't worry that dollar bill has never done anything wrong. So I think that you're going to see um you're going to see a convergence of of there's such a small adoption so far like we're we're in it all three of us. So we think it's all that's happening but when I speak around the world and I do speak around the world I ask everyone to raise their hand if they've ever owned Bitcoin about only 20% say they own it and they're at a convention but which is crazy because I think the global adoption rate is less than 3%. Right. So there's 97% to go. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's why clarity is so important.

>> Yeah. I just got back from El Salvador. I was there for the last week and Bitcoin's legal tender there. You can pay for it, you know, pay for anything with Bitcoin. They're mining Bitcoin with a volcano in El Salvador. So, their entire country has done a one. >> You feel safe there? >> Uh, yeah. It's insanely safe. I've traveled around Latin America to the most degenerate places possible, all the way to the most safe safe place possible, and this was like the safest. It was It was insane. And and there was, you know, there's just Bitcoin everywhere. It it was a very very >> I think I have to go. A lot of people have told me that Paulo's down there.

Tether's down. I >> There was a Tether Golf invitational this past. >> There you go. That's cool. I I really like that. I I have to go. I have to go get down. I was just I just I flew from Poland last night to be here. >> Nice. >> And uh I think that I think that there's a wave of adoption coming that people can't stop, you know? I think it's unstoppable. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Are you directionally also very long on the kind of uh appreciation of these assets as it pertains to outperformance of other asset classes, right? Like just generally how are you thinking about the actual market for adoption and market for uh the actual crypto assets themselves?

>> I think I see the crypto asset market like the Mac 7. There's going to be about seven to 15 that are utility like that. You know, I was I was kind of motivated the other day to see Adam trying to think about merging with with someone else, right? So, I think the idea that that cryptos can merge someday or that or that they can the chains can get together and work out some solution for that. I think you're going to see that kind of thing over time, but it's too early. And you if you remember the days once again, you guys are young. Um there was a time where all that mattered was Yahoo.

>> Sure. >> And then Google showed up. >> Yeah. >> And then Google showed up more and then Google showed up more and Yahoo became irrelevant. Right now it's Yahoo Finance, but there's the divergence of that. I think you're there's you haven't had a Google moment yet where there's some like you see Tron kind of dominating with what's happening with Tether, but how long will that last? I don't know. I mean, will te people deploy there all the time? I don't think we're there yet in terms of where we've had like a Google moment where something is I know Tom Lee is pushing the Ethereum concept which is like that'll be the dominant backbone, but I don't know if it's the dominant backbone long term. I think that there's more um if you think of like a network effect I think what think about how all the

global telephone communications used to communicate together and it was really high cost to do that and once they obviously integrated and they used uh they used the web they were able to figure out how to transact really efficiently and fast and so network adoption is still small relative it's it's tiny relative to the rails of payment >> one last thing before before we let you go get to your panel I'm just curious about the alt blockchain in particular What is one key advantage of using Alt beyond, you know, Ethereum or Salana or some of these other elements?

>> I think we have an ecosystem for payment and motivation to get people to build on top of it. But mainly, I think the key advantage is that we're building tools and infrastructure that we want to use. And so if you're a developer and you develop with us, we're kind of side by side with you with whether that development will help us too. We we we don't need to capture for the alt blockchain a large portion of the market. We just need to get a portion of the market, right? you got a big opportunity in in in tokenization like a trillions of dollars of tokenization and speed's going to matter you know uh basically efficiency in terms of uh ease of use and being permissionless but also super support of the ecosystem. So, as a public company, we have two public companies that are part of our system,

which we'll be announcing a new company shortly called uh DeFi Capital Markets. And DeFi Capital Markets will only focus on building the marketplace for DeFi across the entire ecosystem. So, the advantage is we're connected with them. Um, and we we we put a lot of our own capital into it. We're we're an unusual circumstance where we have products already before we built the blockchain. So we aren't build it and hope they this isn't a field the dream moment and we'll build a stadium hope everyone shows up. We're already there. Our parent company's going to do over 200 million in business this year and we'll be putting and tokenizing products that we want. So the advantage there is that we're behind the tok we're behind the projects ourselves, right? I mean the technology is a leap. I would admit

right now what Bh Harvest has made is better and faster than anything else I've seen. But we know people leaprog, right? We're very fast, under 200 milliseconds. We're doing an epoch every every second. We're we have a big global network of of validators. So, uh we we we luckily the developers in Korea have been stellar. Bh Harvest is just an amazing firm that works with us and Mikai James Kaplan, he's been amazing too in terms of building the AI around it. So, we're we're going to very much push for AI blockchain and robotics to be together. But for us, our our at all capital group, we're really pushing for tokenization of real world assets in a way that they trade, right?

>> Yeah. Very cool. >> Todd, man, have a great day. Best of luck on your panel. Thanks for joining us man. >> Thanks, guys. Thanks. Good to see you guys. Good to see you guys. Thanks. >> Cheers, Todd. All righty, guys. That is Todd Alt on Bitcoin, AI, infrastructure, robotics, the convergence of blockchain, robotics, and AI. Similar to how Kathy talked about it. Uh up next we've got uh Johan Kerbot, the head of crypto at Robin Hood. Uh we're going to bring him up and keeping things rolling at tokenized capital summit. >> Absolutely. I mean you heard from uh you know DeFi Capital Markets with Todd Alt uh blockchain as well. And so this is uh it really does feel like the convergence.

>> Uh that's what's happening right in front of us. Uh it's very cool to see how these assets are getting tokenized and how uh players that have previously dealt in more uh you know traditional assets and asset classes are now coming into crypto and then more crypto native applications are coming in and adopting more of uh of the high quality assets as well. So very excited to talk talk with our next >> no one better than Johan to talk about what's going on post earnings last week. Johan, welcome to the show. Good to see you. Thank you for being here. >> Thank you for coming. Pleasure.

>> Yeah, man. Robin Hood crypto has gone from an experiment a couple years ago to a fullyfledged market. Joanna, what has it been like the last couple of years working uh at Robin Hood and building out this entire arm of the business? Um it's it's absolutely blowing up. >> Yeah, it's been very cool. Uh you know, we started in 2018 um actually during the winter of crypto. And so back in the days, a lot of people were saying like, why do you even care about listing Bitcoin and Ethereum? And so at the time our thinking was really like we want people to have access to all type of financial instrument that they care about and crypto was one of them. Um but it you know since then we listed more assets we started to offer staking in most of the states uh transfer we have

our own self-custody wallet. Um and we also launched in Europe. So last year we did north of a billion dollar in revenue just for the crypto part. And so we are really excited to keep building on it. And you know now the market is a bit calmer. Um but we are focusing on building the new feature that people will use the next time the market come back. >> Yeah like you said market is a bit calmer but prediction markets have been absolutely insane. You guys uh I have a stat here. Prediction markets search 320% on Robin Hood. Why do you think the market is so crazy about prediction markets?

>> Well I think it's gambling. >> I I I think you know it's a new way for people to invest. Um so for a lot of people before like they could not uh you know hedge against what are the feds going to do about the rates or what is the future of AI or what is the best uh company to to build uh a model but with prediction market and even contracts you really have different ways to actually hedge your portfolio. Um and I think that's something that is very new. So now if I want to uh you know invest compared to AI instead of trying to pick one specific stock like Nvidia, AMD or Microsoft or whatever I can actually uh pick one of the event contract that is about AI and actually have a lot more ways to invest in the market. So we

think it's a very different way that people didn't have access before and it was more reserved to very specific institution. Yeah. >> Um and so you know we're really excited. It's it's one of his uh fastest growing business at Robin Hood. And so, you know, it shows also the power of our super app where you have everything within one app. You don't have to transfer money between the different platform. Um and you can go from buying stocks to buying crypto to buying event contracts. >> Yeah. Um one one followup question on prediction markets. Given the success of the prediction markets product and and like you said the super app concept of Robin Hood, do you intend on verticalizing more of the prediction market stack? Right now there's so much order flow going through Robin Hood. I

think maybe there's other exchanges that are, you know, settling some of these contracts. Do you think Robin Hood might internalize any of that market execution? Yeah. So we we think that the exchanges are almost a commodity at this point and for for like for any product that we launch we usually route to multiple exchanges. So it's the same for crypto, it's the same for equities where we la we route to multiple market makers. Um and so for prediction market we already route to multiple exchanges. We have uh Khi obviously, but we also have Forecast X. Um and we announced a joint venture with CEOA uh Rosera, which is going to be an exchange that is going to support the type of event contract that we we care about. And for us, it's important because it will allow us to

really support everything that we want to offer to our customers. >> Yeah. when it comes to kind of integrating a lot of these under the hood products, right? Like as you said, kind of thinking about Robin Hood as an aggregator of crypto uh protocols and products. One that comes to mind obviously from a competitor is the way that Coinbase has done Bitcoin back loans with uh with Morpho. I believe that they've done this kind of setup where you can deposit your Bitcoin, borrow against with stables. I believe you guys have also integrated or integrating lighter for per um and and kind of think about how that works. How how do you think about building a crypto business with different product lines and utilizing the underlying tech, whether it be these onchain markets for lending, prediction

markets, per like is is Robin Hood crypto just going to eventually be an aggregator of all of onchain protocols kind of serving order flow to onchain protocols and and using them directly? like how do you guys think about that uh uh transition and kind of uh being the front end for a lot of the onchain uh products which don't actually have the best UX. >> Yeah. Well, that's really something uh that we focused for a long time. That's why we launched Robin wallet which is our self-custody wallet option. Um and the idea was to give you know all these customers that are used to the Robin Hood UX and UI and giving them the ability to go on chain and go on DeFi and to your point like uh interacting with some of these protocol is kind of daunting the first time you're trying to

do it or you always have to bridge you always have to think about gas so all these thing we are kind of taking it away and abstracting it so that people don't have to always keep thinking about this but uh there is more we can do to your point like I think for example the the lighter investment we haven't done any integration yet, but we we are investing into um the the company. Um and we think that we can build on top of it. Um the other thing that we want to use is crypto as a way to kind of replace some of our backend system. So for example, we launched tokenized stocks in the EU. Uh and where we are already with 2,000 stocks um US stocks and ETFs that are like tokenized and available to our customers. And for us it was really important to make sure

that uh we could offer like everything that tokenized assets can offer to customer from uh 24/7 to fractionalization to uh instancement. Um and so we can use a crypto rails for that replace slowly like the the old traditional system that we have and slowly we will be able to kind of bring all these advantages to to customer and so in the EU for example the markets are not always open when people are awake because of the time zone difference but with tokenized stocks they can actually use it at any time. >> Yeah. Yeah. One of the biggest business lines for Robin Hood is options. I think I saw a stat it was up to about $4 billion a year in options just from either being on the other side of the

trade or facilitating the actual trade itself providing that market. People in crypto often say pers are a far better and superior product to options. Do you agree with this? What's your what's your take? If so many people are effectively trading zeroday options, why not just let them have per? How do you think about per as a product comparison to kind of these shorter term options? And you know, I'm just curious how you may see per evolving into Robin Hood's product. >> Yeah, so we already offer PERPS in the EU, for example. Uh it's somewhere where there's a clear regulation to to offer per. So we've launched about 12 different contracts at this point uh with 10x in leverage. Um and so yeah, we think it's an easier product for a lot

of reasons. Like for example, you don't have to manage the expiration dates constantly. Uh you also don't have to worry about um some specific funding mechanism and with per you can always kind of settle on a constant basis. Uh which we think is a very big differentiator and that's why you know in a lot of places it's working so well. The other reason is uh the type of products that are being created on per you know we see uh commodities right now going on on uh some dexes in Singapore that are going very well and for the same reason like you know the the world doesn't stop turning on the weekend and so people want to be able to hedge themsel and invest on the weekend when something is happening in the Middle East or something like that. So um we we really think it's a great product and

we've been you know discussing with the CFTC like many others uh to see how we could bring it on shore in the US uh but we need to have clear regulation on this one and um the chairman has mentioned multiple time that it's something that is top of their mind. So you know we are hopeful that we'll be able to support it and when there are clear regulation we'll be ready like we already have the technology in the EU so we know how we can bring it here in the US. >> Yeah. Yeah. And on the regulatory front, your CEO Vlad has been very much bullish on Twitter like unleash the yield for the stable coin yield part of Clarity Act. We got a big push over, I think it was over the weekend last week uh where basically we got a bit more clear

regulation uh notes about the difference between rewards and interest. Basically giving banks their win on the interest part, saying look, idle stable coins can't just earn interest. you need to put them into, you know, from what I understand, and I'm curious how like the product side will look, but you have to like click a button that's like deposit them into some pro some yield interest kind of uh opportunity, right? Is that how it could look for something like Robin Hood? Like if I'm a user holding stable coins on Robin Hood, I want to earn interest based on kind of this notes from last week. Is it just going to be as simple as like earn using Robin Hood gold or earn using Robin Hood stable stable coin interest versus just

if I have stable coins I'm going to earn? Is is that how simple it is? >> Yeah, you know, we have to see the final final text because it's always uh until it's it's passed as a law. I'm trying to be cautious, but it sounds like we should be able to find a good compromise. And you know I think for us we were always clear like uh stable coin uh rewards are not the same thing as FDIC insured uh bank account or saving account. So we were never in this world like we were trying to uh change the perception of customer but at the same time and and you mentioned you know Vlad uh what we really think is that we don't want to penalize somebody who is using stable coin because they they want to move money quickly between wallets or between platform. Uh so we want to make

sure that when they're holding the stable coin they're also able to to get their rewards. So um it sounds like with some of these actions we will be able to to pass some of the the rewards and so uh we're pretty happy about it and we think that you know if we can unlock the entire clarity bill that will be also a great win for for the customers because it means that we'll be able to build uh for the entire US instead of having like this fragmented system right now where we have different products and different rules based on states. Um, and we think with cloudy we can actually start harmonizing all the products that we have everywhere.

>> Yeah, I've got somewhat of a general question. You know, there's so many things happening even beneath the surface. It feels like Clarity Act with stable coins, prediction markets, per DeFi, everything is just sort of looking around thinking what's going to break out next. What is what do you think? What what is the what what do you have any bold predictions? what is your boldest prediction for you know the upcoming year of things that you think are going to break out on Robin Hood or in the ecosystem in general? >> Uh we we think tokenization is going to be one of his big uh breakouts. You know I think it's still very difficult for a lot of customer to access international stocks. It's very difficult for international customer to access US stocks. uh you know if you think about

just the the north um hemisphere it's a bit easier but if you start looking at different type of continent it start to be a lot more difficult and you have a lot of taxes you don't have a lot of ways to get yield for example um in a way that is safe so we saw it with stable coin for example like the amount of countries that were trying to buy USDC or USDT because they wanted a safe access to the dollar uh we think that we can actually bring that to more than just uh currency we think that uh commodities, we think that equities, uh private stock, for example, all these assets are are doomed to be tokenized at some point and um people will be able to really easily just acquire them and build on top of it. Not just having them

sitting on their portfolio, but um actually lend against it, being able to borrow, maybe get a mortgage against it. Um and it's something that right now you can do as an American if you have a pretty big portfolio. Um but the normal you know uh person that is trying to access private equity for example it's either impossible because they are not a credit investor or they don't have access to the flow uh and we think with tokenization we can actually harmonize everything and make uh you know everyone being able to access it. >> Yeah. I mean one of the things that I'm excited about like for example right now the Korean stock market is going crazy >> right and it's absolutely mooning. It's like people are very excited about it but there's not really a way to trade that on chain right now. Same with like

these uh finally we've gotten like the pre-market IPOs for some of these AI companies, but there's also a ton of Chinese IPOs and pre-market uh AI Chinese companies that people want to get exposure to. Deep Seek's doing a funding round right now, I think, at about a $20 billion valuation. How how quickly can you guys move on this? Like how quickly can the expansion of listed assets as the tokenization kind of mania continues? Can Robin Hood be very fast to to list tokenized assets across tons of different jurisdictions? How much kind of uh friction is there to actually get those listed on the front end?

>> Uh it will depend depends of the the asset, depend of the regulation that we have around it. Um but overall, you know, we we have a way to build technology that uh we we've been piling on for the past 10 years. Uh we have one of the strongest engineering team in in the valley in my opinion. And so um if at some point we're able to do something on a regulatory front where we're able to move very quickly. So we've seen it multiple time for example with AI adoption in our products uh we I think are one of the brokerage that added uh the most AI system within the company. So uh if you go for example on a on a coin detail page or on a stock detail page will give you a digest of what's going on on on the market. And uh that

was one of our top requested feature. people wanted to understand like they receive a notification the price of a stock of a point moved, why is that? And so we we created this digest. Um and we also have the cortex assistant where you can actually discuss a bit the strategy with with the assistant and really find ways to to improve. And so it just shows you that uh when Robinood has an idea, we we can move very quickly on it. And on on this tokenization front, this feels like it's caught everyone by storm uh including the DTC who came out and they they announced that they have this development of this tokenization service. 50 plus firms are included in this uh this cohort. Robin Hood is included. Can you just give us a sense

of what this DTC uh tokenization service is going to mean for companies like Robin Hood? It's slated to go live October 2026 is when it's going to go into production. How do you see this progressing? What does this mean for Robin Hood? >> Well, I think you know for us it's always really important to partner with firms like this. Like we we want to make sure that if there is a tokenization effort, we actually support it. For a very long time, we've been very loud saying that, you know, T+1 settlement is too slow and that we need to to get to a place where we can go a lot faster and we want to get to 247 trading as well.

Um and so for us, we want to support any type of air force like this and that's why we we we are part of this one as well. Um but you know at the end of the day I think tokenization is just like the next uh phase of the technology where you will have to either adapt or you will basically die because nobody will want to go back to the old traditional system. Um and so it makes sense for for all this company to to adapt to the technology and to start building on it. >> Yeah. Joan, last thing for you. I know you have a panel to go to which I'm sure is going to be great. People on Twitter like to compare Robin Hood and Hyperlid.

They like to stir the pot by saying uh you know by comparing revenue metrics, valuations, users, scale, and make an argument for both sides, right? And so I I'm curious what your take is on Hyperlquid. Is this a competitor to Robin Hood in the future of Robin Hood crypto? Do you not really worry about what they're doing? People are like, should I buy Hood or Hype? People like, hype's a better deal. Why would I own Hood? There's all this back and forth, man. What is it like from your perspective to watch the the rise of this kind of massive per stacks come on chain and really try to be like a a center of gravity for uh bringing a lot of offchain and onchain prices uh or price discovery on chain. What does this

mean? >> Yeah, you know, for us it's two different type of businesses. You have one that has regulation and licenses and you have one that is fully decentralized. And so you can't really compare Apple to Apple on this one. But um what I really like about it is like the amount of people that are getting exposure to per now and getting exposure to these type of of new assets. And so it's something that we really care about and on our side we're also building it but in a different way where it's centralized where uh you know um if something happens you can actually go um against Robin Hood or you can talk to a regulator about raven. So so it's a bit of a different world. Um but in any case you can buy hype actually on the Robin platform. So, you know, we don't

necessarily see each other like as as competitor like that don't talk to each other. We we think they're a great team and uh we we wish them the best. >> So, you're bullish. >> You're bullish or no? >> None is bullish or not, but you know, you can you can acquire >> say he's bullish. Johan, they're cutting us short. You got to go to a panel. Thank you so much. >> We'll have again soon. >> All righty, guys. That is Robin Hood uh general manager of crypto. the lead, Johan Kerbot. Tried to um I tried to get him there. Tried to get him. He was bullish on hype.

>> So, you're bullish, huh? >> Uh he was not really able to say he was bullish on a hype, ladies and gentlemen. >> I find it I find it funny how he says, you know, you can buy hype on Robin Hood, but can't you also buy Robin Hood on hype? >> I I think you probably can. >> You probably could. You can't. You will be too soon. And so, one of them is dealing with the asset, the other one's dealing with the platform. >> But if you look at the numbers, guys, >> there's an argument to be made. >> I'm on the chat. I see Dan this guy taught spot on crypto bros will not actually want crypto legalized cuz government will take over longing Monero not sure that was the conclusion that I came to new type but congrats to you man Holland what's up girl how you doing how

you doing we are live here in Miami baby let's get it man feels good to have you back >> El Salvador >> there you go >> this event's pretty good man there's a lot of suits there's a lot of people a lot of people I mean everyone we've talked to uh so far today we've had Michael, we've had Todd, now we've had Johan. Uh, everyone's super solid. Um, and I think tokenization feels like the word of the week. >> I mean, yeah, it's the word of the entire month. It's the word of everything. I mean, we had Kathy Wood on saying that Larry thinks tokenization flip, right? His bullishness is is kind of what's driving a lot of the excitement and energy in this market. I mean, when Kathy is saying stuff like this, people do listen, right? People do listen.

>> Yeah. Um, Kathy was an incredible episode and >> the video's ripping, guys. Thank you for watching. >> Excited. Thank you for watching, guys. Hit us up in the chat on YouTube, on Twitter. We're watching the chat. So, you guys, if you guys have questions for our guests, keep them coming. Uh, we're going to be having a lot more for you guys today. >> Yeah. Why don't we get into some of the news? Han Ventures raises a billion dollar round, Rob. >> Yeah, Bitcoin cracks 80K. >> Is Bitcoin flying right now? >> Bitcoin is above 80K. Wow, that's bullish, man. 80.2.

Let's go ahead and get the news up, guys. We've got quite a few different things going on today. Uh we've got some good some good kind of like alpha news. We got DTCC news. Let's bring it up. Let's get into it before our next guest. Guys, thanks for rocking with If you're watching on YouTube, guys, hit that like button. Appreciate you guys being here. Subscribe if you're not already subscribed. We're also watching the chat. Happy to kind of chat with you guys there as well. Say what's up. Let's get into the news. >> DTC, >> I think this DTC announcement is one of the biggest things to come out because tokenization is such a big trend. This feels like one of the biggest things in tokenization. So, it's it's big on big as they say.

>> And um >> so what is it? Right. So, it's a it's a no action letter. >> It's a tokenization service and a no action letter. Correct. >> So, 50 and 50 plus teams. Let's just should we shout out some of these guys? Um so, obviously Alpaca, right? Anchorage Digital, Black Rockck, Broadidge, Charles Schwab, Circle, Citadel, City Digital Asset, that's Canton. Uh then you've got New York Stock Exchange, Morgan Stanley. You've got Robin Hood, who we just spoke to. You've got guys like say, that's kind of the only uh uh blockchain pure blockchain I see, but you've got uh do I see uh Securitize on here?

>> Well, I see Wells Fargo. I see JP Morgan. I see Jeff. I see Invesco, >> Ripple Prime, >> Franklin Templeton, >> Raymond James. >> So, a lot of >> uh huge huge names that are on this. But again, what is it, right? That that is the question. DTC's tokenization service will enable the tokenization of real world DTC custodied assets. So, for anyone who's unfamiliar, DTC right now custodies all of the share the the stock certificates, right? the pieces of paper or the digital certificates that basically say, "Hey, you own this stock." Now, a lot of people are somewhat upset with the represented

tokenization market. They want native tokenization because they don't want all these SPVS. I think they failed to realize that right now, the DTC holds all of these stock certificates for brokerages. We don't have native ownership. And so if you buy something on uh interactive brokers or mortgage uh you know one of these brokerage accounts the brokerage owns the stock >> right >> and they give you you know your representation of the stock but what we currently have is representative ownership native tokenization could change a lot of that and right now DTC holds a lot of those stock certificates for these brokerage companies but again what is this tokenization service the DTC's tokenization service is designed

to provide systemic scale where deep liquidity already lives. That's from the DTCC managing director. We continue to collaborate closely with the DTCC industry working group. Those are all the companies that we mentioned earlier >> uh to ensure that the service is developed in lock step with the industry's current and future needs as we collectively build the digital ecosystem of the future. Um, we also go on to say they received the no action letter from the SEC offering or authorizing DTC to offer a defined tokenization service for these participants and their clients for 3 years. The no action letter is good for 3 years and this service is set to go live in October of 2026.

And so I I think um what this really shows is that they're aligning on best practices for a lot of these private partners that are already doing this live. >> Yeah. I think ultimately, you know, we don't get a lot of detail in this announcement, but what this means is that we're going to see the Overton window for tokenization open wide, which means that all of the partners that are listed here are now going to be learning from each other. And it means the I think it's quadrillions of dollars of settlement volume that the DTCC does every single year.

>> People have been calling this a trillion dollar opportunity. It's really quadrillions of dollars >> of unlocked capital that can now be tokenized. I'll just close this point by saying the NEO finance thesis that we've been preaching on this show starts with tokenization. Tokenization is the catalyst. Think about what happens downstream of this. That's what I think everyone wants to understand and that is that all of this tokenized capital flows into primitives and protocols that we've seen onchain for years. It flows into DeFi. It flows into lend borrow. It flows into vaults and it flows into per.

And then ultimately an onchain dollar stays onchain. >> Maybe maybe that's a controversial opinion, but I think if we have tokenized capital, it's more likely to stay onchain than leave the chain. And that's when I think it's more natural for this capital to flow into onchain assets. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think a part of this timeline is that they're there's we're we're going to bring a lot of these tokenized assets to all of these different chains. One underappreciated team is Alpaca who is mentioned in this. Alpaca is the team that is basically connecting the DTC with the blockchain world via all of their licenses and partnerships with dinari securityize uh

and other tokenization players. They're basically powering the ability to tokenize these assets, bring them on chain, and they're kind of an underknown beast in this tokenization world, and I think that that they will probably be reappreciated, reignited their brand and kind of like the way that they're operating will probably come to the forefront a bit more. Ladies and gentlemen, we are live from the tokenized Capital Summit. We're going to take a super quick break, put the panel on. We had an amazing panel on right now. Uh, I believe the GM of Robin Hood that we just had on is onage and a couple others. We're going to go ahead and put that on and let you guys watch some of those panels as we get our next.

>> I just want to say DTC in this in this announcement says they custody over $114 trillion. They do quadrillions of dollars of volume every year. >> Yeah, >> this is the opportunity at our fingertips. Guys, we are live from Miami, the game of Prime tokenization capital of the world right now. the tokenized capital summit. >> We We're missing the tokenization tower. >> We've gone and left the tokenization tower. We're here from the tokenized capital summit in Miami Beach, Florida. Guys, >> back to the tower. >> Let's show you Johan, the GM of crypto at Robin Hood on stage right now at the capital.

>> You guys can enjoy some of these panels. See you guys in just a second. >> At the London Clearing House, which is the largest CCP in the world and and part of the byproducts of what came out of the financial crisis in 2008. So, I've spent the last 16 years in infrastructure. Um, most recently and and I just waited for the announcement to happen, but Swift will announce or Swift will launch this year a technology uh platform on top of the Swift network as an option for banks to start doing the interbank market and to be able to do crossber payments using their own deposit tokens. So, kind of uh great time uh to be out there, great opportunities. Uh love to be at conferences like this. in terms of my hot take and I like that we're in Miami so we can use American sports analogies

because it doesn't always work in other parts of the world but um for me we're in the first inning but but uh stable coins are are kind of already there at scale and of course a lot of that's in I don't have to tell our colleague here from uh from Tether is really in kind of retail and and the crypto markets but but it's coming into the institutional space. I'm looking forward to this conversation. going to have some ideas about what the unlock's going to be not only for stable coins and with institutions but also for securities processing and and for foreign exchange as well. >> Uh thank you very much. My name is uh Franchesco. Thanks for having me. Uh I'm the head of tokenization expansion at Tedor. So we were the first company actually to tokenize something. Uh we tokenized the US dollars as probably

many of you already know. So after that we decided to do it again and among the other project the other products that we have low AI um wallet etc. we decided to develop another another product which is Hadron and is a technology platform as a service and we use it to give the possibility to everyone to tokenize pretty much everything securities in general. So not only for new stable coins like just to name another one, we just launched a new token, a new stable coin for the US market which is USAT using our technology. So Hedron and uh we use it to tokenize like um shares,

bonds, tokenized deposit. Just to answer to the to the questions, I think that uh so the the main assets that are going to be tokenized in the next years are of course our stable coins and then fixed income because it's the easiest and the more liquid asset and another one is in general the yieldbearing tokens uh for like some reasons. One of them is the the use cases that a ilbearing token can uh I mean can be useful for. So if you tokenize something like that, you can use it as a collateral as well. So it's for traditional finance or defy because in

traditional finance um you can use it as a security collateral. So you can get some loans and in DeFi as well you can create a a vault on uh I don't know some defy platforms to get USDT or another another stable coin as a loan. So uh I really think that fixed income yield bearing tokens and other stable coins are going to be the most liquid tokens in the next few years. Thank you. uh titled I've been I spent 36 years on Wall Street traditional tradi and in fact I know a lot of people's up here as bosses uh uh or at least founders etc.

Um our story is one of dog fooding. We uh we've invested heavily in broker dealers, transfer agents, corresponding clearing firms. Um we literally did not want to have a field the dream moment where you build it and hope they come. Everything we do we dog food. So we're tokenizing silver, gold, platinum, palladium. We have a a reserve, you know, a license reserve to hold it. You delivery in two days of gold, silver, platinum, palladium. Um, we launched our own layer 1 uh blockchain. Um, I think I think uh I I always never want to say this perfectly, but I think we're the only one to sponsor as a public company a layer 1 blockchain. We are we are truly mining. I started mining Bitcoin in 2011. I made every mistake you could possibly think of in Bitcoin. like

stupidly selling 5,000 Bitcoin at $5. I I I have a a history of selling five I think 3,000 Bitcoin the last four years. Now we don't sell Bitcoin. Uh so we are Treasury Company on the New York Stock Exchange American. We also are bringing another company public uh DeFi Capital Markets and everything we tokenize, we we believe that in order for them to trade because you can everyone can say RWA, we're going to tokenize assets, but if they don't trade and no one knows about them, they're not relevant. So we dog food everything. There's not anything we tokenize that we don't want to trade ourselves. And so we're very motivated on that side. We our business will do about 202 million in revenue this year. That's what we're forecasting. And uh we want to work with everybody across the space. So we built

an EVM layer of blockchain and we're pretty motivated about it and love everyone that's up here. everyone's doing something what he what what Tom's doing and um it's a very big disruptive convergence in Tradfi that I don't think people realize it that 97% of the world owns nothing in crypto and so you have a huge opportunity here. >> Hi, I'm John. I lead the crypto business at Robin Hood. uh been at the company for about 5 years and so for us the main focus on tokenization has been to really uh make it accessible to the 27 million customer that we have. Um we don't think that tokenized assets should just be tokenized funds that uh institutions are

tokenizing themsel and just exchanging between themsel. Uh we want to make it accessible to every one in the world. Uh we've already tokenized 2,000 US stocks and ETF and it's accessible in the EU and uh we also launched our chain uh called the Robio chain that is available on test net for now uh with more than 100 million transactions so far. So we're really excited to bring more and more of this assets on chain and to build on top of it. I think um a way to sort of size like you're saying how far along the tokenization is yet to go uh again since we're in America if we're in a baseball stadium and there's you know 20,000 people in the baseball stadium the amount of tokenized assets is about like having about three rows of people

it's probably about like and the entire rest of the stadium is the 97% that have no actual exposure in it yet. And yet we have this example of stable coins which have become its own animal. People don't think of them as dollars. They think of them as the better version of something that I'm going to get wired to you, right? It's not tokenized dollars. It's stable coins. It's its own animal and it's better than dollars. You know, it's tokenized value. So, um let's talk about um uh sort of what are some of the the next pieces that are you think are needed for tokenized assets to become a more normal a more liquid part of financial market. So it can be anything that you think some ideas regulation

distribution we've talked about this in our last panel but uh settlement liquidity custody common standards where do you guys see the the friction point the the holdup where if you kind of broke that through the dam would start to flow yeah I'm happy to take a first crack at it I'm sure there'll be lots of complimentary things from this group um I I'll focus on privacy uh as the key issue uh for for us so grayscale we are investor And what we are trying to uh help uh investors do is figure out uh how to translate this tokenization vision into investment opportunities.

And there's lots of different types of blockchain networks with different network architectures. And one of the challenges at the moment is mapping those different architectures to the tokenization roadmap. Our thesis is that privacy is uh non-negotiable uh for real world uh capital markets. you absolutely have to have transaction uh privacy. Uh and for that reason somewhat controversially potentially I get a lot of grief for this view uh but my my view uh is that over the short term you are likely to see a lot of success by more institution ccentric blockchain projects. I think Canton would be uh one example of that. uh I think that they

have an advantage that they look more like the financial system does today which transactions are intermediated by institutions and those institutions ensure user privacy. Open networks like Ethereum, Salana, others they have a different model. They are transparent by default and they require additional tooling uh in order to bring uh privacy. I think that we are going to get there. uh but my take would be that you do not have sufficient privacy infrastructure on the open blockchains to deliver institutional tokenization at scale on the open networks and so we think over the short term institution ccentric models canon being one example probably will see a

fair amount of success we should expect to see a lot of adoption of those chains over time I believe that open networks have more upside for investors they have a more transformative vision of how capital markets can change, but they need more privacy tooling. And so I think we're not quite there yet. Uh that so that would be my my hot take. More privacy tooling needed to fully realize the tokenization vision on the open networks. >> Look, if you if you tell a bank all your transactions are going to be available for everybody to see, it's a non-starter. They're just never going to use it, right? So the question is, are you willing to go halfway and meet them there? And you know, there's things like ZK proofs. There's a lot of there's a lot of alternatives, but you do have to begin with that end in mind. And you

have to be like, look, we're going to meet you halfway, right? >> I think so. I mean, and I'm very optimistic about ZK proofs and lots of other related technology, but I think a fair take is that they're not fully ready for institutional onboarding as of today. It's going to take, you know, one >> you have, the problem is you have a whole generation that is on Venmo that can see what everyone's sending each other money to. So you, you know, I'm 56 years old and I want privacy, but the younger generation is as concerned about it as we are. I'm not suggesting that for institutional adoption that's not right, but you have an entire generation that's used to this phone and used to people knowing what's going on and sharing on social media. And you also have this other issue which is globally you have distrust of government. And so

the idea that you're the the idea that that um other parts of the world that are very active in crypto are going to buy into the idea that who has access and you're going to put an intermediary in in the middle and say there has to be that transparent that privacy whereas you have that now if they don't know your wallet address. So you you are there is conflicting ideas in the US we say hey we want privacy we want all these things that institutionalize and let the current system use it. But outside of the US, they don't want that. At least that's my experience. I I don't know whether it's true or not. I'm not a good, you know, obviously a judge of whether it's fully going to be adopted like that. But I think you have this moment in time where you're going to

have, like you did when cars came out, 2 3,000 car companies. You're going to have all these different features and benefits. But for for 18 years, they wouldn't even put a windshield wiper on the car, right? Used to stop every hour, half, you know, every mile and clean off your windshield. It's the same scenario here, which is there's all this convergent technology. It's going to have to figure its way out. And just as I I agree with him, privacy is going to be important. I want it, but a whole generation doesn't care as much about it as we do. So, there's a really important framing here. Okay? And I I I speak all over the world. I I spend time with central bankers and regulators, DC, you know, uh Europe and London, every place else. $50 is not 50 million. $50 is not 500 million. If you're moving $50, you're

moving value from one wallet to the next, for example, and you want it fast and cheap. In most cases, it's almost free. Okay? When you're a corporate treasurer or you work inside of a bank, you want certainty. So, if you say, "Hey, this might take 30 seconds longer, but if there's a problem, I know what's going to happen. If there's a problem, we know how to jur what the jurisdiction is, what the legal rights are." They want certainty. It's completely different ballgame in the institutional market. There's two things that um that I see that are absolute unlocks for institutional uh finance and I'm going to follow up with these guys on the on the stage as well. Okay. One is settlement. When you move settlement on a blockchain is technical settlement.

That's not legal settlement finality as defined by the BIS as defined by central banks around the world. It's just not settlement is a legal construct not a technical construct. It needs both. That doesn't happen today. Every settlement utility around the world, whether it's securities, instant payments, FX, which I worked at, everyone, every single one of those is either run by a bank consortium or run by a central bank where all the banks in that country play along like in places like Saudi Arabia. Every single one of them without question, without exception. So now the first thing you have to settle is how do you do settlement if you're a bank on a on a public blockchain or in a private network? That hasn't been worked out yet. Most of the central banks around

the world are looking, they're not saying, "Can we do this?" They're saying, "How do we do this?" And keep the financial systems in the world stable. It's going to happen. It'll get worked out. I'm involved in a lot of those conversations. Here's the second thing, okay, is that blockchains take care of execution and ordering. What it doesn't take care of is does do you have the permission to do that? It'll take whatever transaction you want and it'll write the block. And there's lots of things that are kind of being bolted onto that. Some of them might make some progress are not going to work. The unlock is to be able to have the governance, the compliance, everything about that token travel with the token and have an attestation service that can be kind of used by everybody but owned by nobody to set the

standard. So when you get that and you're going to put in your wallet, go, hey, that really did come from Tether. Hey, I really can hold this in Brazil. Hey, when I want to settle this token from Black Rockck, I'm going to get USDT in my wallet. You can't guess those things. The only thing that happens across boundary from Canton to, you know, through layer zero to A. The only thing that moves is value. So, if you're on the other side and you receive, it's like, well, what is this thing? And all of a sudden, your compliance people have to start doing work on that. That doesn't scale. Oh, and by the way, algorithms are are going to start making decisions that humans do. And guess what? every settlement system that we have including Swift and the messaging was built for humans. I send you a

message, you credit that account. So, Swift does 25 million messages a day for settlement for for crossber payments. What happens when that's 25 billion? Swift the scale. It's not the speed moving the message speed of light, but what happens to the exception processes? Because you're going to have different kinds of exceptions and you have millions, not hundreds. It's all going to change. We're not ready for algorithms either. I think it's an important distinction you're making which is that you know in the blockchain world we have this certain assumption that settlement means a certain thing but there's also a legal construct as to what that means as well and again this is a question of coming halfway right like the blockchain purists are going to be like well it is you know settled it's but then if if if you don't have that

recognition that there is an existing system with certain rules certain regulatory requirements certain compliance requirements if you don't have a mapping between those two then you're just kind of folding your arms and being like, well, it's my way or the highway. And in that case, you're not going to get adoption, right? In order to do that, you really need to find that bridge and build that. >> And I've seen that gap. I've been working inside the machine for the last six years. I work at the largest banks in the world. I I see what that gap is, and that's what I'm I'm going to build. >> Very nice. I I really think that when you issue a token when you do something in general, every single business or project that you want to do in your life, you have to make it like useful for people like you can tokenize

whatever you want but if that thing is not uh useful if people don't want it like it will never scale up never. So why for example I mean of course like I use our experience in this case like why USDT is this powerful today like we started in we launched in 2014 and uh we didn't do I mean we did zero marketing out of the for for USDT but why it is so big now because it's useful because if you go to Latam Africa Southeast Asia they don't have the access to to the banks to the banking system. But why?

Because it's too expensive for them. But they wanted to have the exposure to US dollars because their currencies are, you know, killed by inflation every single year. So we gave them this possibility. And so this is why USDT is um I mean so huge nowadays. If you go to Bolivia for example, you can buy a piece of bread, glasses, everything in USDT. really if you go there you will find USDT as a price for everything supermarket in every single shop we are too focused uh in um I mean in other stuff in other kind of tokens because we don't live that life we live in Europe in the US we have we have money actually

right we can we can afford um I mean uh a bank you know we they cannot pay five or $10 for a I mean for for a bank account. So this is why USDT was is this powerful and this is what we want to do now because like the technology is a commodity. You can build a tok organization platform in one week probably but so that is not the point. The regulation is increasing super quick. So that is in my opinion is going to be okay in super I mean in the next future but super super fast as well. The distribution is the pain point. So as we distributed USDT because it was useful,

we need to distribute other kind of assets in the same way and there are some players, some stakeholders in this uh environment which are for example broker dealer, traditional finance uh uh banks as well, um exchanges, uh market makers, they're super important here. And once they understand that uh in the next future the next finance let's say is going to be there it's going to be tokenized is going to be on blockchain because it's cheaper it's faster and everything. So everything is going to change but until uh uh until that that kind of players won't change their perspective we will not have that much

liquidity in um the token tokenized markets because and I and I finish um when we issue a token today like 90% of the tokenization projects are for private placements. So when we tokenize something, money market funds, a bond, a stock, real estate, uh pretty much everything, it's only private placements to traditional finance funds, banks, etc. If we want to change that, we need to I mean we need to change this ecosystem and um yeah and these kind of stakeholders have to have to understand that the liquidity is is there and it's

uh it's better for everyone. I >> already spoke so I'm going to defer to Robin Hood. >> Um I I think you know a lot of the things that have been discussed we we already have the technology for a lot of this. So privacy for example we can build it. uh we don't need to have a canton network or something like that. We we can use it within the smart contract and a lot of people have already done that. Um if you look at by USD for example, they implemented some of their privacy uh within the contract and so I think for us we we're really more focused on why do people want tokenized assets? Um I I think that's something that we forget sometimes. We are all talking about we need to tokenize money market fund but why do we even care about this? Um, and so that's

where I think we we need to focus a bit more of the time on. Right now, if you want to buy a tokenized asset, you need to create your own wallet. You need to find a way to fund it with fiat. You need to probably pay gas multiple times. You need to find multiple bridges. And then you can have your tokenized asset that doesn't bring you anything else than the actual underlying asset. And so for some countries in the world where it's very hard to get to brokerage, it makes sense. uh for some of the other countries like uh the US for example it doesn't really make any sense it doesn't give you any advantage and so that's what we need to focus on so tokenized asset can bring you 24/7 can bring you instance element uh it can bring you access to more type of assets from

private equity to international to things that you could not have before and I think that's really when we are able to offer that to the customer that they will be actually excited to to get in and uh to to bridge the the gap Um but overall I think you know if we are just all focusing on uh which layer uh we should use for this or which bond to tokenize first uh we're not going to go really far and and so I think for us that's why we've been really uh concentrated on the customer and what are they missing right now before we we are really tokenizing more assets.

>> Can I can I say that you got to pay attention what first Francisco is saying the we travel my staff and I travel all over the world. We I think we've been around the world three times the last six months. Most of the people out there like in Africa and parts of Asia are just motivated that they have a great cell phone, a new cell phone. Usually it's on the Google platform and they can buy and sell tether. They can they cannot use their own currency and they the the local adoption is they can pay someone else in Tether. So we I can even hear the conversation like Swift and you know Grayscale, Robin Hood, these are all multi-billion dollar companies. And yet if you look at the spectrum of the 8 billion people and you take about half them away, there's about 4 billion

people. So 300 million people have access to global finance, which means there's billions that are just hoping that they can get Tether in their wallet and pay for something or do a microloan. So the the we're when we're trying to transform tradi into DeFi or some form of DeFi, we're forgetting that what Tether's servicing are the people around the world that have no access. And that's what where the opportunity is. We're we're all just going to switch around say, "Oh, now our bond trades on a token." >> All righty, we are back. Hope you guys enjoyed the panel here from what's going on out there in the world.

>> Uh we're going to get into some news cuz there is plenty happening out there in the world. >> Apparently, where are we going to start? >> Fire in UAE and Iran has been disrupted. We're not gonna talk about that yet, guys. We got to watch this video. This GameStop trying to acquire eBay for $125 a share, about 20% higher than the end of the market price on Friday. Obviously, the stock has jumped since. Let's watch this video, guys. I think we can start with the idea that the market cap of of GameStop is call it 11 billion. uh you have $9 billion uh on your balance sheet arguably if you're if

you're providing uh effectively all of your stock and then and then the cash that gets you to 20 you have this letter from TD that's another 20 uh we're now at 40 uh but we're still off uh by call it uh 16 and and the 20 as far as I understand while it's considered a highly confident letter meaning TD saying they're highly confident uh that they would provide the financing. It's not locked financing. >> Yeah, we'll see what happens.

>> You're short $16 billion in your 20s. >> I I hear you. >> I understand that. I'm I'm just trying to understand where the the rest of the money would come from. It's >> half cash, half stock. I I I'm I'm I hear you. I'm just saying that that math doesn't get you to the >> to the price that you're offering. >> That's a pretty straightforward question. I don't get it. Like where's the rest of the money coming from?

>> Andrew laid it out pretty clearly. >> I I don't understand your question. We're offering half cash, half stock, and we have the ability to issue stock in order to get the deal done, >> but the full details of of the offer on our are on our website. >> So So they would just issue more stock, so they would just print they would just airdrop tokens to eBay to and dilute themselves. >> Gosh, >> we know how is $16 billion short of their offer. Their CEO, Ryan Cohen, goes on CNBC and says he doesn't understand the question of how they're going to come up with $16 billion. Then proceeds to say that they are going to issue more

stock to cover this. And you can view the details on their website. Ladies and gentlemen, he is one of us. He is one of us. This guy has lost his mind. He's trying to acquire a company that is three times, four times the value of his company just purely on market cap. He is trying to revive GameStop, bring back the GME meme energy and compete with Amazon with eBay, but he's short $16 billion and does not have an answer as to how he's going to get the money.

Guys, this is the state of mergers and acquisitions in 2026 here. Obviously, this is hilarious. I think it is fun to just walk through the the the mental gymnastics that it could, you know, if if you're the eBay CEO. Yeah. Right. We obviously know how this guy's thinking about this. >> Let's just go through how the the eBay CEO might be thinking this. Okay. So, >> I'm getting offered $10 billion more than the market cap of my company to be acquired. >> That sounds like a pretty good deal. Now, the guy, you know, maybe he comes up with the money, maybe he doesn't. You know, there was all kinds of negotiations when Warner Brothers was looking at acquiring, you know, Netflix was going to get in and Paramount and all of these things.

>> They ended up structuring something where, hey, I'll accept your deal, but if it falls through, I still want like a fee for going through the process, right? And so, if I'm the if I'm the eBay CEO and I'm thinking to myself, well, where's my downside here? Maybe I go through and I look the optics of this, if I take the deal and then it falls through, those are pretty bad. But if I make 5 billion, 10 billion, as like as like a as like a a walk away fee, if you have to walk away from the if I accept this deal, >> billions, >> maybe it's 1 billion, maybe it's two billion.

>> Yeah. >> I just think this guy Ryan Cohen's kind of uh kind of an attention mong attention monger, right? Just trying to like there's fearmongers, people who are doomers. This guy is an intent an attention monger in a world of attention. >> I agree with you. And I think if eBay if if I'm the eBay CEO, I'm calling this guy on his bluff. Obviously, this guy is scrging around for the money. I would say, "Hey, I accept your deal, but if you can't fulfill the deal, I want a billion dollars as a walk away as a fee." >> Guys, let's get into the next thing.

This was funny. Wanted to talk about it, but more serious and more pressing. There's quite the situation going on in the A kelp down layer zero dynamic. Here we have a coming out and filing an emergency motion to vacate a restraining notice served on Arbitrum DAO. So basically what's happened is Arbitrum DAO froze that 30,000 E. There is a law group who is going after arbitrum trying to essentially say that because there are previous DPRK exploits that have happened, this 30k E cannot be used solely for this exploit and actually would needs to be um basically taken and confiscated and either reallocated to

previous DPRK exploits or the actual members of the DAO have to get involved in this lawsuit. So, A comes out and says, "A thief does not gain lawful ownership of stolen property simply by taking it." And the law is clear on this. Um, these assets were recovered to be returned to users victimized on April 18th. Freezing them in this way harms people. Really, it harms A and their ability to get this market and protocol unfrozen. So, guys, I mean, we are very very very very hopeful that A can get out of this situation. I think it's also important to point out that the SEC the the 12 people on the security council for arbitrum, they get paid $5,000 a

month. Like they are not doing this for the money. They're doing this because they are security practitioners of the space and now they're in charge of arbitrating who gets repaid from this exploit. >> It's incredible, incredible scene. Um which >> we're going to see how this shakes out. Ultimately, uh it looks like a and this law group might have to go to court with one another. Yeah, I mean this law group that is pushing these class action and these kind of confiscating the free the frozen ETH and arbitum, they have been known to do very very very stupid lawsuits against Dows and crypto protocols. If you guys following Tavono on X completely unhinged, like calling you an effing little batch, but like

extremely extremely dialed on the situation. one of my favorite follows when it comes to this kelp layer zero situation. >> Guys, we've got our friend Zack Pandle, the institutional analyst who called this a crypto coldfront. Much lower than where we are today on Bitcoin back in the tokenization tower. These chairs don't swivel. Zach, welcome to the show, man. It's great to have you on. How is your panel in there? How are you? >> Yeah, I'm great. Great to see you guys here at Consensus. a excellent panel on tokenization. We had Tether and Swift and Robin Hood. I think a great group to be talking about that subject.

>> Absolutely. And and and yourself. I mean, why don't we start there? Would love some takeaways from the panel. You mentioned who was on it. Um and then we'll we'll, you know, kind of catch up to from where we left off on our on our conversation in the Empire State. >> Yeah, absolutely. Look, I think one of the panel topics is something that's creating some controversy on the topic of tokenization, which is the role of privacy and how it can be delivered to to users. Whether that's going to require a more institution ccentric approach, things like the Canton uh network I think brings out a lot of passions uh I find um or whether uh open public blockchains can adequately solve the need for user privacy. Uh that's something we've been focused on. uh definitely something that came up uh on the panel and there was some some

divisions. Uh I think uh not everyone likes to think that we need uh some of these institution centric models. Uh as you guys know we we think that probably they will see some short-term success because they give institutions a modeicum of control and they solve things like privacy and identity in a way that we I view think we have not fully solved just yet. Uh for open architecture blockchains >> I I take it and please correct me if I'm wrong here. you you value the role of privacy as it pertains to these institutional tokenization protocols. However, maybe we're not implementing it quite like we should. I'm curious.

Please fill in the nuance here. >> Yeah, look, I think the longer term vision are open architecture blockchains, peer-to-peer smart contractbased global decentralized finance. That's the vision I want to see. I think ultimately that's where the big upside is in token investing in crypto investing. But to realize that vision, we need to have a fully articulated system for a user privacy, identity, compliance, the types of things that are required for real world uh finance and we have parts of that uh today. Certainly there are privacy solutions uh for Ethereum for for Salana. I'm not sure they are fully there fully there at scale to solve uh to bring trillions hundreds of trillions

of tokenized assets on chain just yet. I think it'll take a few more years to fully get there. And in the short run, things that look a little bit more like the financial system today, institutions running their own architecture and speaking with each other, I could see them having a fair amount of short-term success for that reason. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Uh, one of the big pieces of news that came out this morning, I think, or maybe maybe over the weekend is the DTC uh and their tokenization service. They're they're going to start testing it, I believe, in July and then roll it out in October of this year. Um there was 50 plus names companies that are in this working group and helping to align on the best practices for tokenization.

Help us understand how the DTC plays a role in tokenization as they go from the current custody of over a hundred trillion dollars of stock certificates to more of a a tokenization partner for a lot of these companies. >> Yeah, I think the way to think about it is to go back to how a securities transaction works in the first place. You know how how it works is I call up my broker, the broker calls an exchange, the exchange calls a clearing house, the clearing house calls a custodian, the custodian calls a transfer agent and when all those books and records are updated, you have a securities transaction between Alice and Bob uh say that's how the system works and you know of course it is pretty efficient our cap especially US capital markets are pretty

good. uh but the first step will be moving more of that activity onto blockchainbased infrastructure to get uh more settlement asurances lower cost more transparency uh reducing the role of of human uh involvement. So that's how I see the DTC uh efforts and some of the you know permission private uh blockchain projects is moving us towards that tokenization uh future. In the longer run I think maybe we can disintermediate more and more of those steps with smart contracts. That's the longer term uh vision, but a first step is just moving what we're doing today onto blockchains to get a lot of efficiency. That's how I would read uh the DTC.

>> And ju just one quick question here. You know, they're currently cing hundred trillion dollars in stock certificates. What happens to this hundred trillion dollars? >> Well, they they still are doing the same. They just are uh instead of a book entry uh record keeping, it's blockchain recording. >> So, they're still the custodian similar same sort of thing. It's not that revolutionary of a change. I would say it's a step towards our tokenized future. You know, I think a cryptonative audience sometimes thinks, you know, what is the point of that? We could go so much further with open blockchains and smart contractbased decentralized finance. And I think eventually we are going there. Uh but this is where how the steps that it's going to take uh to get us there. I think it's a a good push towards that tokenized future.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. Zack, man, we've just since you came on, we were talking about privacy. Zcash has just continued to outperform the rest of the market over the last six weeks or so. It has been the quickest horse off the lows. Could you just give us the reasoning why Zcash is Grayscale's privacy bet? What is it that makes Zcash so compelling to the investor who perhaps joined crypto in 2017 or 2021, kind of missed the early days of Bitcoin? People are calling this the ability to enter and to uh be an investor in Bitcoin in 2015 but in 2026 what is the Zcash thesis from Grayscale from your work with their team with Barry and all the work that you guys are

doing there why is this thing doing so well >> I think it's not difficult to understand it at some level first we know that there is demand for decentralized digital currencies that that's one of the use cases of blockchains that's the Bitcoin use case it's a multi-t trillion market. Zcash is competing in that space. So, we know there's a huge addressable market. Second, it's time for privacy on blockchain uh infrastructure. As blockchains are interacting with real world finance, professional grown-up finance, I think the need for privacy is becoming completely obvious and AI is pushing that even further. you know, it's AI technology has the potential of increasing surveillance on open networks

like uh like Bitcoin and sort of increasing the need for real privacy uh solutions. And then the third piece is maybe Zcash specific is it's I think it is moving into a new era. Zcash is 10 years old, but it's made some changes. It's evolved uh in certain ways how privacy is implemented. New capital is entering the ecosystem, helping build out things like wallets, connectivity across chains through things like near intents. So all these pieces together, the huge addressable market, the I think pressing need for privacy and financial transactions because of AI and Zcash are really being ready for the moment. You put all that together and then you look at its market cap and it's very very

small. When I look at all of the currency plays in crypto, just the currency assets, Bitcoin is 93% of that category and Zcash is 0.3% of that uh category. So, a lot going for it. A modest market cap. I have pretty high aspirations uh for what we can see from Zcash this year and beyond. >> Yeah. So, you're thinking like a top 15 token in the future, top 10. I think it has uh very high potential upside uh if the vision is is realized.

>> What what are the just out of curiosity, what are the currencies that you put into that currency group that there's Bitcoin, there's Zcash that comes to mind. People like to make an argument for Ethereum. I think you know you can kind of go one way or the other. There aren't I mean maybe you could put Dogecoin in there, but you know what what that's got you know you can make arguments about that all day. What what else belongs in that category? >> Well, I'm gonna shamelessly plug our framework and then answer your question. So we use a framework called crypto sectors that we developed with our friends at Footsie Russell. They're a traditional finance index provider and we divide the crypto asset class up into six distinct sectors in the same sort of way that the equity market is divided up into industries like energy, consumer

staples, etc. We divide the crypto asset class up into sectors like currencies, smart contract platforms, AI, etc. So in that currency bucket you have Bitcoin, you have the Bitcoin forks like Bitcoin Cash, you have XRP which I would consider as a a pure play currency, Zcash, Monero, a handful of of other things. So we divide it based on use case and we look try to look at the blockchains that are basically just focus on the currency use case less so smart contracts and and beyond we put in another uh category Bitcoin the king of the category today. Zcash probably the smaller cap token that in that group we are most excited about.

>> We don't talk about XRP very much on this show but you know it's in this category. You've been around for a long time. You've seen the progression of how the sentiment around XRP has evolved over the years from the lawsuit and and and beyond. How seriously should we take XRP these days? >> Well, look to me XRP Ledger which is the blockchain that XRP sits on. This is a battle tested project as you say it's been around for a long time uh through lots of different ups and downs in the crypto asset class. It's performed well as a blockchain ought to do processing transactions without interruption day in day out for a long period of of time.

The company that supports it Ripple private company developing lots of different types of business lines which may integrate XRP L the ledger and the token uh over time. So that's how I would think about it. battle tested blockchain clearly one of the largest most liquid uh assets and its future is really a question of where does adoption go uh today you know can Ripple integrated into some of the other interesting businesses that it's building in a way that draws value to the token that's the kind of open question for XRP >> yeah Zack people are saying that we're going to tokenize ETFs is there any plans for Gayscale to tokenize its ETFs and allow the onchain crowd to buy into Gayscale's products onchain Well, let me say first, watch this space. Um, you

know, some some part of me thinks it's almost a little funny to say. I mean, the ETFs are taking crypto and moving that into traditional finance and tokenizing an ETF would be moving them back to crypto, which is a bit of a strange uh thing. But having given this a lot of thought, I think maybe there are some things uh that in that structure could be provided to an onchain audience. Um, you know, without kind of saying exactly what we may or may not do. things like indexes um with for multi-token products or the c the custody uh solutions that are provided in a secure way that maybe you can't get uh with bridge uh infrastructure uh on chain. So potentially there are some things that that could make sense bringing them but tokenization tokenizing our products onchain asset

management these are all elements of the future of grayscale. So watch this space and we'll have we'll have more to say over time. Yeah, we had we had Kathy Wood on last week and she was talking about how Larry Bink's conversion from being kind of like skeptical and bearish on crypto to being very very bullish, one of the most vocal bulls of tokenization was a massively important shift for her perspective on tokenization and kind of her thesis there. When it comes to some of like the larger players advocating for tokenization, last week we saw Securitize had big news in this in in this market. I think that they also just got a a FINRA, you know, uh regulatory guidance today and then we had the DTC

like what is the signal from the larger players that you're seeing? I know there's a very like clear bull case, but is there any more nuance signal that you're deriving from the tokenization broad kind of like for lack of a better term hype cycle? Well, I think mostly that people can see that it's a mega trend that is only at the very beginning. Like an American baseball analogy, maybe the first pitch has been thrown. $25 billion of tokenized assets is something. It's a good start, but it is just a tiny peanut compared to the size of capital markets. And so, I think all of these institutions, they need to think about growth. Where are we going to do with this business uh over the longer run? And tokenization is a fairly obvious growth driver of capital markets

for probably a couple of decades. And so that's why you see so much energy and focus. Let's get smart on it now. Let's think about how we can play in this market. What's going to be the right infrastructure uh to invest in and let's get going. So that that's sort of the the place that the story is. I think very very early everyone can see the vision increasingly see the vision uh and understand that it's a many year long uh journey and it's time to get acting now. >> Yeah. When we were in the tokenization tower, the Empire State Building, we were talking about, you know, I I had asked you what is the biggest blocker to the tokenization thesis, you had mentioned institutional wallets, institutional custody for these assets.

Has that been solved? I mean, we only spoke a couple of months ago. Where are we on institutional custody? >> Yeah. So, let me clarify that a little bit. So, I I would say it's not so much the infrastructure. You know, there is some infrastructure. If a large financial institution wanted to uh offer wallets to its clients, it could potentially uh do that. But we need to see that the capital, the investor capital needs to move onchain to buy the assets that we are tokenizing. So just like every other part of the financial system, it's about connecting saving and investment. People that are borrowing money and people that have money to to lend. That's what the financial system does. So tokenization is only one half of the story. bringing those uh assets onchain. We need to bring the capital

onchain as well. There is you know increasingly sophisticated highquality infrastructure around custody and wallets but it hasn't been adopted very widely. You know we go to all the wealth management uh platforms. You know Morgan Stanley, Wells Fargo, these are some of our our great partners on on the ETFs and they're just not there yet. They're not at a place where their assets their clients can hold assets directly on chain. I think that we will get there probably over the course of the next 18 months. The first couple uh we'll get there and it'll take another few years until the masses of capital move on chain. So that's what I'm looking for is not just the assets moving on chain but the investor capital moving on chain.

That's when you know you really have uh the flywheel going. >> Got it. Zach, I wanted to ask you again about kind of some of this similar conversation ETFs, tokenized assets, DATs. There's a a treasury company called Cippher Punk for Zcash. I know Grayscale is pretty involved in that. What is the latest with Cippher Punk to your knowledge? Um what what is that company doing aside from just accumulating Zcash, right? Because I think some of these companies are interesting to invest in specifically for assets like Zcash considering that it's somewhat difficult to get access to specifically onchain and some exchanges do have it. The big ones do, some don't.

Cippher Punk is like an easier way to get exposure to Zcash for a lot of, you know, typical investors. What is this company doing other than just accumulating Zcash? What is the the kind of latest updates there? >> Let let me say a couple things on this. Um uh so digital asset treasuries, they can be a fit for certain investors and they issue lots of different types of securities, common equity, preferred shares, convertible bonds, uh and investors can look at all those things. Maybe those are a fit in some places. Our view would be that access to the token itself is typically what the investor is after and there are usually more efficient ways like the ETF uh to get access to that uh product. So Grayscale has long offered a a private fund uh ticker ZCSH

uh that holds Zcash token that is already available today in brokerage accounts and retirement accounts and fingers crossed uh could be an ETF uh someday. That's the vision with uh all of our products is to convert them into that efficient structure. But these types of structures, they hold the token. You can bring a token into a brokerage account or retirement account setting already. I'm not sure that you need uh the digital asset treasury structure to get that efficient uh token exposure. The other thing that I would say is is onchain access is important particularly in the case of Zcash where the fundamental rationale is about shielding and privacy. you want to be have have shielded assets. So the ETFs or related structures, they can give you

investment exposure, but to get that full private experience, you want to uh move assets onchain into shielded uh addresses. And my own view is actually it's gotten quite easy. Uh I would recommend and I have no financial stake. This is just I think the product is cool. I would recommend the zodle uh wallet zod. Uh it has near intense uh infrastructure in the back end. So you can take assets from any other chain USDC on Ethereum or USDC on Salana or the Salana token itself anything like that and move it pretty seamlessly into a shielded address on Zcash. So these would be the two angles that I would uh offer is simple efficient structures uh like our Zcash trust product that holds

the token or things like the Zod wallet which make it relatively easy to onboard into a shielded address. >> Yeah. So, Zach, last time you came on as well, you mentioned that it's not a crypto winter. It's a cold front. Looking at the price of Bitcoin right now 80,400 the highest price in quite a while. Ethereum 2367. Uh, you your take is seemingly looking strong. The four-year cycle is over. Obviously, hindsight, it looks right right now. We had uh a a pretty big TA guy on earlier, crypto Mike from uh the Netherlands, and he talked about how there's some levels that are coming here. Your take is that we're basically going to have a shorter crypto cold front this time than previous bare

markets. What do you need to see to verify and validate that that is indeed correct and that the bottom is in? What's your current view of the of the macro kind of of Bitcoin and the majors? Look, I there's a lot of inputs of course. Um, and I think that the technical analysis I I do listen to some of that commentary myself. I think navigating markets, you do need to look at uh at the charts sometimes. But let me let me lean on fundamentals a little bit just to to add some color to that. What I would like to see is first let's get the markup of clarity uh in the Senate Banking Committee. I think the dominoes have been falling uh there. We got Kevin Worsh confirmed as a Fed chair. that clears the deck uh for the

Senate Banking Committee to take up clarity. We saw some potential agreement on the yield issue. So moving forward in clarity, I think that will be one very important fundamental uh sign. And then the other fundamental issue is just the the macro picture holding up. Uh okay. Uh stocks have had an incredible run uh lately, of course. Um, if we can sustain the highs, I think crypto can continue to uh recover and and maybe break some new highs, break above 80, 90,000, those would be great uh levels to see uh broken. Um, if equity markets were to wobble because the military conflict in the in Iran is not totally over and we have more challenges in energy markets, that could be a setback for lots of assets, including our asset class. So,

those are some of the fundamental things I'm I'm looking at. I can't I don't know that we can say we're totally out of the cold front. Of course, it's a a balmy spring day in Miami and I hope that you know it feels that way in crypto relatively soon. Things are looking good. Um I think these are generally good levels to enter. I'd like to see a couple more boxes checked before I can say crypto winter is totally behind us. >> Yeah. >> Zack Pendle adoption. >> Yeah. Thank you so much for joining. >> My pleasure, guys. Have a great week in Miami. All right. We'll see you around. >> Cheers, man. Pump it. All right.

Grayscale. Grayscale is coming to buy your bags, ladies and gentlemen. They are going to market to the boomers, to the RAS, the adviserss. Zach's your guy. Thank you guys. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> Beautiful. Um >> I mean, come on. >> Yeah. >> Are you bullish or what? >> What else do you need to hear? >> There's nothing there's nothing else. That's >> I need this commodities rotation to hit this uranium bank. >> Like Bitcoin's stuck in uranium. >> I'm stuck in uranium. How we looking today, boys? Not looking too hot. All right, we're just down a little bit. That that monthly chart's looking insane. Um, wow. This this event is getting full, man. It's getting packed.

Shout out to Gamma Prime. Let's give Gamma some love, man. >> Starting to get overflow into the podcast area. >> This event is filling up, guys. It is. There is a bullishness in the air here in Miami. I'll tell you that. I don't know what it is, if it's Bitcoin over 80 or if it's just the general vibe, but there is definitely more bullishness in the air. >> Bitcoin over 80 doesn't hurt. >> I think that probably helps. I think that probably helps. Next up, we've got Ryad. >> Absolutely >> on Global Capital Flows. Ryad is the founder of Rayad Group in Dubai and uh it's an absolute pleasure to have Rayad on the show. Pleasure to meet you guys.

Pleasure to meet you. Thank you. Thank you man. >> This is a very basic watch, I think, for wearing like much better watches. This is my basic like us. Guys, watch Mogus. Bitcoin must be above 80. Brad, welcome to Miami. Welcome to the rollup. Tell us a bit about what you do and about your group out of Dubai. Kind of what what you guys do in the space. >> So, we are a family office based out of uh the Middle East, based out of Dubai and we also uh our company started in India and then we set up shop in the Middle East. We invest in cyber security, communication devices, global ETFs. We've had partnerships with VFS, Tata. So BFS is a Swiss company and we

also at some stage were all you know we've also worked with education institutions from America well-known ones and in China and helping them set up in Dubai >> rather in the Middle East. >> I got a feeling your size is size how big are we talking here in this family office? >> Uh so you know we so typically we don't like talking about uh numbers. So we have 11. So what I can tell you is we have 11 royal family offices that are investing with us and we have been managing their capital for the last 40 50 years. The company was started uh by my father in 1994 >> and but it wasn't so structured as what it is now. But now we have diversified quite a bit and we've gotten into real estate. We've gotten into multiple

sectors >> including Bitcoin. We were also one of the first companies to buy and spot bitcoin in the Middle East. And so obviously you're here, this is a very innovative space, you know, uh digital assets, blockchains, these sorts of things, but you've been in business so long. How do you balance the risk of innovation with the potential reward? You obviously want to be make sure that you're you're building a sustainable investment strategy. You've been in the game a long time. How do you continue to sustain yourself and build a a balanced investment thesis? >> So for us, you know, for family offices, we typically have a longer term time horizon compared to VCs. So first capital preservation has been key. The second thing you know we off so we have a philosophy of we typically do three

things. So first is capital preservation. Yeah. >> Then it's about growth and then we make asymmetrical bets. So we've been consistently like even with Bitcoin since you guys were talking about Bitcoin quite a bit. We took profit all along 2025 and 2026. So although we weren't sure no although we weren't sure about the 4year cycle. See I'm not Master Thomas. I can't tell. But for us we believe there's no harm in taking profit. Sure. >> But we still kept holding 25% of a bitcoin. For us, it's important for us to rebalance our portfolio >> because we also answerable to our investors.

>> Yeah. So, are have you guys been participating in this uh kind of global capital flow around what are what people are calling this AI bottleneck trade, this energy growth, whether it be commodities or kind of memory storage. Have you guys been >> Andy's a big investor in uranium and so he just wants to feel like there's someone else that's on this train with him and so he's very you know we're very curious how you're viewing the like you said the AI bottleneck trade power AI digital assets how do you see these these things converging? >> Uh that's a very interesting way of looking at it. So I'll answer it in a >> sure in a couple of sections. So when it comes to uh AI, you know, we so let's say if you want commodity exposure, so

you can also invest for example in the Chile stock market. If you're interested in getting exposure to copper, you can if you want exposure in gold, you can invest in South Africa. If you want exposure in nickel, you can invest in the Vietnamese stock market if you don't necessarily want to invest in the commodities per se. Regarding AI right now, I I know this might be a little controversial and please, you know, and and I'm I've received a lot of push back for saying this, but I think AI companies are slightly overvalued. >> So, we were primarily investing in blue chip AI companies. So, we've been taking profit all along and we were invested in companies like Nvidia and even in the cyber security world, we use quite a bit of AI. We use ML as well. So we use

machine learning tools and AI for uh especially for certain cyber security related activities. >> Yeah. And and so you know when you're talking about the overvaluation of some of these AI companies and you look at anthropic you look at open AI some of these are going to IPO you know in in in the market very very soon. Um >> one to two trillion dollar valuations >> one to two trillion dollar valuations. you you I I take it, you know, how do you think the market is going to react when you have all of a sudden trillions of dollars in these AI valuations now unloaded on the market?

>> So, I have a counterpoint to this. Let's think about 1999 and all the companies that were there. >> Yeah. >> Out of them, how many have survived? >> Um, a handful. >> There's a handful. And a handful of those are, you know, you've got Amazon, you've got, you know, Google. like some of these guys, you know, were born out of that era and they've risen to the top, but the vast majority of them have gone to zero >> and and this is what we think will also happen with AI companies. >> Okay. >> Eventually, unless they can provide a use case and they can come up with a model where they're generating enough revenue, >> we believe something similar will happen.

>> Okay. >> Yeah. Is your family office allocating into outliers in the digital asset space outside of just Bitcoin performance outperformers, right? like how how do you guys think about allocating outside of just Bitcoin? >> So, you know, for so we we are allocating an institutionalized tokenization. We're working with two of the biggest travel companies, most eminent travel companies in the market. I even spoke about them before. So, I'm sure some of the audience will be able to pick pick up on it. >> So, you know, we are doing that. But you know the problem with allocating outside of Bitcoin for us especially is that we have to provide uh returns and uh there's a huge process for us before we can get the approval to allocate in

other asset classes. >> Yeah. >> Even to allocate in Bitcoin I had to fight with my board. I had to fight with a lot of people in Dubai in 2014 2015. They thought it was a Ponzi at that stage. The only thing which worked for them is I said this this is digital gold. Most family offices in our region will you know typically allocate between 0.5 to 3% of the portfolio in Bitcoin. We allocated up to 7% 8%. >> So we were allocated buying your bags baby those guys. >> And so you know some still say Bitcoin's a Ponzi. Michael Sailor is just infl he's raising money. He's pouring more capital in. I mean what do you say to someone like Michael Sailor? What's your

reaction to him these days? Uh Michael Sailor has been doing this for as long as what we are, if not longer. I think he's a he he's a pretty sophisticated investor. I think he has a long-term time horizon, especially if you look at the way the micro strategy stock is providing has been performing. I think the proof is in in the pudding. Although it's not done well in the last couple of years, but I think he'll be fine in the long run. >> Okay. Okay. Um and Tom Lee, is there any interest from your side in the Ethereum world? Tom Lee going and you know Bitmine what do you what do you think is he able to match Michael Sailor's energy >> so it's an interesting point of view Tom Lee does have a lot of energy he's very

well spoken he's very bullish on >> fault man >> yeah see Ethereum I think it behaves like a tech stock >> so I wouldn't want to comment too much on what Mr. that Tom V is doing. I'm sure he believes in his conviction >> and I I wish him the best of luck for the future. >> Yeah. Ryan, can you give us just a sense of your portfolio allocation right now? Um kind of like from the family office like in the percentages, what are the asset classes that you're allocated to and kind of what is the allocation percentages like roughly approximately you know look like?

>> So that's a very good question. So right now we're allocating to a consider considerable amount to like just normal uh ETFs. So that would be about 30 40%. The other 20 30% is going into uh probably like stock markets around the world outside of the S&P 500. So whether that's in emerging markets, we felt emerging markets would do really well in 2026. >> They look great right now. >> So So we invested uh in the Polish market, we invested in the Chile stock market because we felt we wouldn't be able to pick out individual stocks. We invested in the Brazilian market as well. In India, we invested in a lot of aggregator stocks. Although we felt the Indian market is extremely overpriced right now for what it is.

>> Okay. >> Uh interesting. >> There might be a correction coming along. Uh and then we had about about 3 or 4% in Bitcoin and then the other percentage is being used for cyber security communication devices. >> Yeah. >> And we're pretty much leaders in cyber security in in Asia. I I would like to believe we're one of the biggest companies >> for cyber security. >> The emerging markets index here I've got it up. Broke out of a 20-year range. This is this is kind of an index fund across all different types of stock markets and emerging market companies. I think the current narrative is that the world has overinvested in the US compared to the rest of the of the world. I is this part of the the family offices thesis going forward as to why you kind of allocated to other index

funds? Kind of give us your emerging markets thesis. >> So when it comes to emerging markets, uh you know like we've seen with China, it's extremely undervalued. uh but with China I would only recommend that you know you should probably get in when there's a stimulus before that I wouldn't really even recommend investing in China uh when it comes to India our thesis has always been that uh it is slightly overvalued right now for what it is maybe a good time to invest was 2020 >> uh we hope that once the interest rates go down the emerging markets start doing a bit better because you know the dollar is still the world's reserve currency so till you know you don't get better interest rates. I think it'll be a

little difficult for emerging markets to really do well, but the Brazilian market looks interesting. It it does really well in uh election years typically from what we've seen. Uh and so let's see how how the Brazilian market plays out this year >> and and you know given your position as a international investor, how do you keep track with some of these emerging markets because these things are so dis disconnected, right? Are you keeping track of interest rates as sort of a highlevel gauge on everything or do you go into Brazil, you go to India, how how do you keep track of all these different disparate emerging markets?

>> So that's a very good question. So we don't have a so I I have an overview of everything that's going on. But we have sector experts, okay, >> across different countries who are keeping a track of every single market. We have analysts. I don't know for how long you will even need people like me and these sector experts. Probably we'll all end up being replaced by AI. But I I still think we will need connectors. So hopefully a connector like me will still be required going forward. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Ri, thanks for joining us. Pleasure. >> Hope you have a great rest of your conference here. See you next time. Man, >> thank you. >> And get that 7% to 10%. All right, let's get the bigger presentation.

>> 100%. If probably even more than that. >> If it was you, you'd be all in [ __ ] coins huh? >> Probably not. >> Probably not. I I still like to see some use case. I like the thesis. The technology should be there. >> But thank you. Thank you for your time. Nice to talk to you guys. We'll see you in Miami, man. >> Thank you. >> Cheers, man. >> Ladies and gentlemen, the Middle East family offices are buying your bags. >> Yeah. Not this not your bag, not the [ __ ] coins. They're not buying uranium, buddy. >> I don't know, man. They're going to have to buy uranium after this after this commodity market goes boom. And these guys need energy. They will be needing energy. Guys, we're going to get back into the news that we were at because there is more coming. Um, we are live

here at the tokenized capital summit. It is Monday, May 4th and A and Layer Zero are still trying to figure it all out. Rob, let's get back to the headlines to to the news and show what's going on. We got Brian Pelro coming out and putting out his statement. Rob, I think the market has been waiting for a long time from this. I am very, very glad to see this come from Brian. He says, I've been asking myself, why has it taken me so long to write this? Ultimately, I still carry a huge amount of cognitive dissonance here. In my mind, layer zero, the protocol was like nois and the application was setting their config.

And who the f would secure billions in TVL on a 101? I don't know, Brian. I completely am with you on that. I cannot believe Calp down did that. >> That was the default configuration. >> Literally zero. I would have bet almost anything on that because almost every other major application we helped up their configs. Someone then going mainly changing that to a one of one was outside the realm of possibility for me. >> There seems to be some inconsistencies here because un kept is saying that it was the default that it was one of one.

Now Brian is saying they set it up helped them set it up. It wasn't one of one then they went back and changed it to a one of one. Why would anyone do that? Beats me as well. There was a conversation this week speaking to a customer and they just screamed at me at top of their lungs and swore for a s a solid three to five minutes straight we'd implemented additional security measures of forcing a more stringent RPC quorum. See, I think this was the big issue. They while it was a one of one, the RPC selection, the ability for them to uh kind of manipulate the RPC that actually cuz guys, RPCs are the things that talk directly to the blockchain, right? So, when you're on a MetaMask

wallet, a rally wallet, and you're doing a transaction, you're sending it to an RPC. The RPC is sending it to the chain. There is a heavy reliance on the RPC and forcing every chain to provide multiple RPCs and we had done it without telling them and I blah blah blah with their business which is frankly is a dead scene. We had messed with their business and they said communication wise we were completely blowing this. They were completely right. So he goes on to say that basically these have been in terrible last two weeks that he has not known what to say and how to come out and say this and that he's very very grateful for a for Mike from Ether and for a lot of these trying to get a

solution out quickly but guys as we spoke about earlier because of this lawsuit there is no there's no resolution coming imminently like we thought maybe it would be this week we we're going to get the funds we're we're going to get these things released. But no, this lawsuit is going to put a stain. A and this and this lawyer group are going to be in a fight for that 30,000 ETH and that's probably going to take a while and that is going to be be a big cause of concern for the users of these protocols. So, I'm just not sure when when this resolution is going to come out. And I think the market's going to be quite happy that that Brian comes out and, you know, makes a statement,

but it does feel like it took a long long time. And again, there are discrepancies in the story here. We don't really really know kind of who was at fault between kelp and layer zero. You you kind of argue both sides. Um, here's where we're at. >> I mean, one one shred of hope in this is that the market is going up. >> Yeah. If a's markets were still frozen, ETH was going down and we were still looking to >> unfreeze at 2378, >> get some of these things back, >> we would have had liquidations out the wazoo, things would be looking very very grim. And it's not to say that the market can't turn around, you know, and and go down,

>> right, which would be very unfortunate for everyone that is still stuck in these frozen a positions. >> Yeah. >> But at least at this point, it feels like we've got some breathing room. >> Yeah. Obviously, people want to get their money out. They want to reallocate, but um you know, there is a shred of hope there uh that the market isn't turning against them, at least right now. >> Look, I mean, it's good that Brian put this out. I don't have a lot for Brian. I I I mean, look, obviously the guy's in a tough spot to >> tough, incredibly tough spot.

>> Incredibly tough spot. Um it doesn't feel like this is very substantive for the ecosystem at large. People wanted him to make a statement. He made a statement, but it's not helping resolve the situation. Now, the situation is between this law group that is holding up Arbitrum 30,000 ETH from getting back into the hands of a depositors. >> Maybe Brian was like in the villain character for a little while and and maybe that was where he should be, but it feels like now we're starting to get some closure. He's come out. He's sorry. He's sorry. He's sad, understandably.

And now we're seeing the villain character get assumed by this law group for holding up. >> And that feels like our adverse our adversary right now. >> Yeah. It's very much less like a versus kelp versus layer zero versus chain link versus all these other teams trying to fight for stuff. >> It's like the entire ecosystem against now this log group that's holding the frozen. >> I mean, look, there's people that were deposited in these other exploits that they're trying to get uh reimbursed for. those people are on the side of this law group probably >> or potentially at least >> potentially. But it it feels like at the very least it's a versus this law group.

And you'd imagine that DeFi would rally with A. >> Yeah. >> So guys, let's get to the next piece of news here. We've got another big big raise. A 10 figure raise this time from Han Ventures raising $1 billion to start a new crypto fund expanding their focus to AI agents. Somehow I made the appearance today in the run of show. Thank you. Thank you to all the all the haters, all the lovers. Uh, looks great. Smells like somebody sprayed a lot of cologne or Freeze in here. >> I don't know what happened here, but my goodness.

>> Um, one of the largest raises in the last few years for CryptoVC. This is Katie Han, who has previous experience at, I believe, A6Z. Uh, she's now raised a billion dollars for Han Ventures, who is going to expand into CryptoVC with an adjacent focus of AI agents and just generally AI in practice. I honestly just assume that in order to raise a significant amount of funds right now, investors are going to be like, "Yeah, we want you to also invest at the intersection of AI and crypto, right?" Like like the whole like crypto VC thing is like, "All right, we'll you know, you guys have done well. We'll invest into you, but we want you guys to also invest into AI and we'll also be on the the, you know, the fringe and the edge of AI." Look, I I I think this is why

cryptovc is not on easy mode anymore because you have not only the one the the there the power law is starting to play out. I think it is still early days for some of these sectors, but at the end at the end of the day, the this market is so much more mature. And so you've got large winners that are now just going to in continuously increase their lead and increase their market share because we're going from a a a world where a lot of people had a lot of different slices of the pie and and I heard this stat actually. I was listening listening to uh the all-in guys great show uh and they there were some deep math and and analysis that was done around the power law. 4:2 to1 is the ratio that the power law typically

sets at. And so you can imagine this looks like this looks like uh you know 50 25 uh 15 and then maybe some like very very small players but the largest player typically gets more than 50% share of the market. The the next biggest share of the market typically gets half of that leader and then it's 4 to 2 to1 in that ratio. And that's how the power law typically plays out. That's what we're seeing play out in these digital asset protocols. The larger players are getting even larger. their leads are increasing. If they're raising, they need to raise more.

>> That means bigger checks. >> Bigger checks come from larger VCs. And the larger VCs have traditionally and typically been in AI. They've gotten a lot of uh of gains from these companies and now they're coming into digital assets to write these larger checks. At the same time, you've got these crypto VCs that have essentially graduated, but now they're they're competing with those large AI funds that are coming from more traditional markets. So ultimately, it's the same convergence that we've been talking about at both the ground level in the trenches building also in the investing world and that is making it a lot more difficult to ultimately compete because you you got to you got to play

the game on heart. You're on expert mode now. >> Yeah. Ladies and gentlemen, we are going to flip you to the panels. It has been a big day today. I mean, we've got some good news, some not so good news. We are here at the Tokenized Capital Summit. We've got our next our next panel for you guys coming up with some great great guests. We're going to pan you guys over there and be right back with our next guest after. See you in just a second. Thanks for watching, guys. >> Is the key. Uh I don't see uh when Bitcoin goes uh drops every time Altcoin drops with with BTC every single time.

It's uh the graphic when you can see market cap orange is the bitcoin and blue it's altcoins every single time every single times when bitcoin drops altcoin drops as well and right now I think we are in beer market and uh I expect 40k until the end of the year it's not financial advice guess you know but uh but as the founder or as the like leader of fund You should have strategic vision and for example with the mind that we put off our TG next year but mind right now we have bigger community bigger presence on X than even Monat or other big projects we have 200k

users 60k on discord 60k on X but I put off TG because you should have distribution when you decided to go TG then no matter how good startup is no matter how solid the team when the markets is shitty it's really big chance to be wrecked if the project decided to go to G in not in a pretty good market for just uh for the case zero G they on uh in October it was all-time high it was when BTC had uh had like 125k K and their price on TG was5 bill

and on upbeat $16 bill. It's pretty huge. The next thing how I know it uh I did pretty deep research and uh run simulation and it's my result uh from this cycle. I managed some money from my investors, from my business partners and I got 3.9 access. It's almost uh 4x for 3 years. Then I think I I'm not going to teach you but it's my experience.

Then uh you maybe you're going to ask me what what I'm doing right now in investment stream. Then uh my approach right now it's no how to uh how not to lose money rather than how to make 100x as uh black rock says uh first rule don't lose money and second rule don't forget about first rule that the point and right now uh I find three pretty nice uh focus investment focus first is the OTC I don't know if you're familiar with the OTC guys. It's when you can get access to big projects that already

trade on exchanges like Coinbase, Binance, etc. and get discount up to 50%. But the thing you can hatch your risk, you can short and hatch your risk uh token to be dumped and for half a year because it's usually less than half a year. 50% is pretty nice yield. Uh second thing it's loans. Very few big projects then don't want sell their tokens with a big discount and they thirst for a loan with a collateral. How does it work? You deploy your money and they give for example 50% 15% per three months. It's 60% per APY.

It's pretty nice person and it's low risk because it's with collateral. And for for example right now we have uh one loan in nail banking it's pretty nice term and second thing we decided to raise 10 mil fund to manage OTC if you not uh if you don't have experience how to structure how to manage and hatch OTC deals you can just just deploy money and get your success fee it's simple then guys uh I that's All I would love to talk with you after my speech or catch up in San Francisco also hear our

the main person uh head of partnership uh Julia. Julia please stand up. It's Julia. She's beautiful lady and very smart. You can ask anything Julia. And uh that's all guys. Uh, God bless you. God bless Web 3 and thank you. Happy.

Oh. All right. All right, everybody.

the perspectives of uh of people who are providing opportunities in uh in investing is is always interesting and and the ones who are empowering opportunities is actually a very interesting conversation to me personally when we hear from allocators uh family offices and the like um it's obvious that uh you know they have survived longer than three generations. There's a Chinese proverb that says, "The first generation are oxes. They work hard. The second generations are pigs. They eat everything. And the third generations are chickens. They pick up the scraps." Well, there must be something going on in the families that are able to p last that that amount of time and are able to build and acrue wealth and build on legacy, including

and beyond the capital that they sit on. So, we're going to hear from these individuals. We're going to learn a little bit about patient capital and fast markets. Let's give the next panelist a round of applause. Come on up everybody. All right. How you guys doing?

>> Great. Thanks for having us. >> Yeah, it's good to have you guys here. I get to talk with uh some of you uh on on a more of a regular basis than 35 minutes on stage and other ones I just met. So, I look forward to uh where this conversation is going to go. Uh before we get into it, I'd love for us to start with a brief introduction. um and then maybe a little bit about what interests you in the space of uh uh in the space right now. So let's start with you Pete. Hey guys, uh I'm Pete Naggerian and I'm the founder and managing partner of Raptor Digital. Raptor Digital is a blockchain venture entity that we built in partnership with the Raptor Group.

Raptor Group is a family office founded by Jim Palada who uh essentially built Tutor with Paul Tudtor Jones, then went on to own a couple sports teams, has done a ton of frontier tech over the years. Um, and occasionally he'll find a lane that he wants to go in deep and he'll bring a team in and put them in business basically, which is what Raptor Digital is. Uh we spend the majority of our time looking for realworld use cases for blockchain tech and that is you know not to be confused with the the hype around real world assets. Our focus is where we can find business opportunities

and founders with domain expertise that are disrupting huge industries with uh certainly the biggest addressable markets and are using blockchain tech and interesting ways to do that. >> Awesome. Thanks Pete. I got my own opinions on domain expertise and its usefulness but uh we'll save that for a coffee table chat. Bundep tell us how you're doing man. Hey, thanks for being thanks for um your great event here. I was at the one in Hong Kong and that was brilliant. So, this is like you set a high bar for yourself. So, I've been in crypto for more than 10 years. Um really find the disruptive potential to be the one to be capitalized on and think that philosophy if you don't have an alignment with it, you shouldn't be

here. And if you are and you have that alignment, then you're a true believer and this is a great time to actually get into it because the market's down, the naysayers are here. This is the time to build. this is the time to buy. So I've also done Tradfi. So about 11 years ago, I set up a company which finances insurance premiums. It was a PowerPoint with a spaghetti chart 11 years ago. Today I have Black Rockck, Madison, Dearbone Partners, Stonepoint Capital on my cap table, on my board, which makes for fun conversations. Uh and HSBC and Morgan Stanley fund my loan book. We'll do over a billion dollars in loan volume this year. Got into back into crypto about three years ago. Co-founded a stable protocol, one of the original co-founders of Tether. It's called STBL.

And what we do uniquely is we split out the principle from the yield. So you get a principlebacked utility stable coin just like Tether and you also retain the yield which you don't surrender to Tether and let it make billions off your back. And more recently I'm out to promote crypto adoption because I think the thing we're missing is we're all trying to find more juice from the same lemon. And that lemon is about three 6 to 7% of the world's population. And if you all remember the famous Clayton Christensen book about crossing the chasm, you need to get to 10% to make it move towards ubiquity. So I'm with Brett Calip who's back there. We are uh starting a new company to promote crypto ownership and take that market share up from 6 to 10% and it's called Clubcoin.

>> Love that. Get 1% better every day and get closer to 10 all in. How you doing Nick? >> Thanks for having me. Hi everybody. My name is Nick Dukeov. I lead institutional growth at the Salana Foundation. Um the vision of Salana is this idea of internet capital markets where we're connecting the world's investors with the world's assets in a single liquidity venue. And when it comes to patient capital and the fast markets, as this panel is titled, we really think there's a once in a generation opportunity to bring access not only to new investments to global investors, but also to bring global access to capital to the world's productive businesses. And right now that is very bulcanized. It's happening

in brokerage accounts around the world. It's happening in local angel markets around the world. But on Salana, we see unifying that market into a single venue. And uh in the last two years, we've grown RWA on Salana from zero to$2.5 billion dollars. >> No small feat. Nice work. >> A lot more to go though. >> Yeah, a drop in the bucket, but a but a big drop. Well done, Ryad. Good friend of mine, Ryad from Ryad Group. Uh oh, you got to turn it on if it's on.

>> It's lovely being here. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And likewise to have you. Uh please introduce yourself and then maybe also give a little bit of color on um which area of tokenization is most exciting to you and your group. >> Hello, my name is Ry Kamala. Uh I'm the managing director of Riyad Group. Uh our company has partnered with VFS Global, Tata and Stanford Universities in the past. Uh what really excites us about tokenization is institutionalized tokenization. We are actually right now currently as we speak working with two of the most eminent travel companies in the world. Uh I think what they really liked about tokenization was that they could they wouldn't have to dilute their

shares. They wouldn't have to access private credit and they would and they could generate predictable cash flow. >> Amazing. So I'm going to go ahead and make an assumption. And I'm going to go ahead and assume that you know with the large portfolios that you manage that a small part of your your uh you know uh uh important is is capital preservation. It just might be like hey let's let's preserve a little bit of our portfolio while still getting uh >> and we're back from the tokenized capital summit.

>> Yes it is indeed. We left the tokenization tower in New York. came down here for the tokenization capital summit and uh we're here in Miami Beach with our good friend Yachts >> a friend of the show but you've not yet been to our Empire State Building tokenization tower studio. >> Well, I need to go there but thank you for the invite. I look forward to that. That's the one thing that I'm missing is to go to that tokenizing studio at the Empire State Building is exactly seven floors doesn't get bigger than that. >> Well, yeah, you've been traveling a lot, man. Welcome to Miami.

>> Thank you. I take it uh this is not your first time. Probably one of your one of your dozens of times in Miami. >> No, actually we have a couple portfolio companies in Miami. Um you know in for instance um Igloo uh the Pachipenu guys are basically you know based here and actually originally Yuga Labs had their base here as well. So so there's a bunch of companies that we've been so been in Miami beautiful weather it's great um nothing to complain about. >> Busy as hell I have to say. I mean it took a long time from a traffic standpoint. Yeah. Yeah. You can say, you know, booming city is uh the traffic is one indicator of that.

>> Yeah. With F1 as well. >> F1 this weekend. We had the Cadillac Championship at Trump's Golf Course. So, it's been a lot happening here in Miami. Um >> also hearing some big news coming from Igloo potentially sooner than later. Just hearing things. >> No comment. >> Oh boy. I uh Okay, we'll save that for later. Um well, Anamoka Brands has been in the space for a long long time. Um and and we'll get into the AI side, the agentic side, stable coins as well. But before we do dig in, why don't we just get a a quick update? Um I think the last time we saw the last time I saw you was uh Korea, the end of uh 2025, I think a little bit earlier in the year for Andy. Um what what is the first half

of 2026 been like for Animoka? >> Well, the world certainly has changed, right, from from 25. Well, first of all, I think a couple big news for us. You know, our joint venture, Anchor Point, which is a joint venture between us, um, Standard Charter and Hong Telecom, was one of two, uh, sort of recipients of the stablecoin license in Hong Kong, the other one being HSBC. So, that that was sort of a sort of, you know, um, a pretty momentous moment in the sense that it was like 3 years in the making. Uh, and also sort of indicator that the rest of the world is also looking at stable coins, not just the US. Uh the second thing of course is uh you know we just like literally just a week or or so ago sort of closed around for NUVA. Uh NOVA is an incubator project that we

basically together with Provenence uh myself um Mike Kagny and then Sachin as well are basically joining the board of that. So that's kind of you know um a big thing. Uh and then you know from the other thing for us is you know the agentic AI stuff. I know we're going to talk about a little bit but you know we rebranded it from Animal Minds to Hello Minds. um that we think is really completely going to alter the space uh you know we believe you know I talk about sort of the agentic web as kind of like web 4 basically the next situation uh and why you know it's also going to save basically onchain blockchain in a way that um uh has been sort of struggling you could say uh and of course the other thing for an anima is that u you know last year we announced

that we were planning to go public in NASDAQ with a reverse merger with currency group that's still sort of you know um on the way uh and of course you know there's progress um there's developments in that I can't talk too much about that per se cuz it's all public. Um but uh but that's sort of something that's still still on track. Um and our business itself, you know, we are now tracking over 630 maybe even 650 portfolio companies. We continue to invest. We continue to sort of you know um expand in the space. Uh you know we're big believers in it even though it has been a tough year. I mean we got to just say you know um so so one hand it's been positive um with the policies the regular shift on the other hand it's been negative um and you know our space

has a lot of drama I mean now the most recent one with world liberty and Justin it's like you know filling up my feed I'm just like you know like oh wow okay so um you know so it's it's it's uh I got to wonder if like you know basically sort of drama series are down because crypto is just so it's just so much going on there but yeah Man, so we've been having the I think we had the figure team on quite a few times, Mike and a couple of the digital assets guys and yeah, they're building on um this blockchain providence. They've also got this heliloc product. >> That's right. Helocks will be available in Nova as well.

>> Yeah, that's grown significantly. Tell us a bit more about the thesis of Nuvo. What is the overarching vision here for what you guys are trying to achieve and what makes what what makes this different from other RWAs or tokenization uh platforms? Yeah, I mean so first of all um you know it starts off obviously with helocks but RWA generally first of all as a thematic it's you know it's it's not just on everyone's lips it's basically going to be I think one of the most important ways in which we can bring the masses basically to digital assets because of stuff that they understand right um NUVA of course is we can think of it as the merging of the expertise of a group like figure and providence that really understand essentially the space in particular sort of institutions productization development side of

things and then we're the consumer side in terms of you Like I mean if you think about how do you know what happened in the Philippines or in Indonesia or in Asia not just expanding the Asian market for RWAs but also bringing essentially people access to an asset class that they wouldn't normally have had access to and then of course also adding an alternative asset class into the RWA space as well. you know, a couple years ago, we announced, you know, more of a more of a what's called an experiment, the tokenization of a of of a Stratavaris violin, which is a super expensive violin that, you know, together with Galaxy at the time. Uh, and this was pioneering because it demonstrated that you could actually tokenize something really valuable and make it more available. Um, and and that sort of is is that next evolution of

that. Um, and right now, you know, I think there's it's no such thing as there's only one. there's going to be many many RW platforms but you know which ones are the going to ones that going to reach the consumer market as well and the one that also has a reach into Asia which is really sort of where we're strong at >> yeah you know one of the things that Andy and I have been talking about on the show has been the power law it feels like it's started to play out in some of the categories of the market so far you look at per you can kind of see hyperlid and lighter pulling ahead you look at prediction markets you see poly market and cautious as the clear market leaders in some senses it still feels very early But then in the other sense it's like

how can anyone ever catch up to the poly markets and callies of the world feels like they will just continue to increase their lead. What categories do you think are still early enough where we haven't seen the power law play out? They're still unclear market leaders. Do you think this is broadly the case or do you think there's certain categories where where this is more the case? So I think one of the reasons why I guess the power law apply seems to apply so so so so much in in some sense is because of the concentration of capital right because capital and money has a network effect in and of itself right liquidity gets liquidity right so if you have a lot of liquidity in one center then you say oh well where can I get the bigger bets where I can get the bigger spreads

you're going to go there >> but what I also what I would want to challenge there is that when you look at decentralization when you look at for instance you know you could argue that why was it even possible to have essentially someone like hyperlquid when you had the major sort of centralized exchanges for instance, right? You know, it wasn't exactly it wasn't like per was invented at hyperlquid, right? You've had basically sort of, you know, these type of sort of futures in other centralized exchanges before. And yet here it drew people. It was because the product was better, it was more efficient. And the other thing I would also say it was more transparent, right? At least to the eyes of traders, they saw benefit. So it really comes down to what is the innovation, right? So the power law applies when you're all

playing the same game. But when you play the game differently, that's when the power law no longer applies in the same way. And I think we see this in all sorts of all sorts of industries. So I would say if you can find a way which you can play the game differently, which doesn't always work by the way, right? But when you play it differently, then it's all up all up for grabs, right? So now in classic sense, RWA, I think there's clearly no winner at this point. And you know, again, I think there's also a geographic issue as well. things like poly market and kalshi do feel to me that eventually it's going to have to move into the regulated space certain aspects of it right so politics probably not sports you know like like for instance certainly um you know I won't comment on the US but certainly in Hong

Kong it's not possible because in Hong Kong things like sports betting is definitely in the category of a a sort of lotteryy's license and in Hong Kong it's under the jockey club so so there's certain categories where right now you know it's a little bit like we're not paying attention to it that doesn't mean that it's okay right which is kind of been life story of a lot of crypto activity, right? Uh and so that will come into the regulated space. The same thing with stable coins as well, by the way, right? People talk about sort of, you know, stable coins, you know, like Tether and Circle, they obviously have a market lead, but when banks are coming in, when you have regulators coming in, right? Like, you know, the stable coin, you know, with anchor point, uh, you know, that we have basically with

Standard Chart and Hong Telecom. That's an example of something that requires a regulated setup. Is it going to be possible to someone launch sort of a stable coin in those regions uh in an unregulated fashion? probably not in the in the future maybe in the short term it doesn't matter right so that kind of stuff as well right so I think I think there there are these elements so I don't know that we have sort of the classic power laws come into play uh because there's also innovation I mean you could have said that about taxis versus Uber you could say that about sort of AI right but it's also so it's just can you play the game differently right um and of course the one thing that you know one could also argue is like over things like things like gaming everyone's like saying gaming is dead

all that kind of stuff actually from our perspective actually from our perspective and we can talk about a little bit about AI agents later because we think actually that's the tooling for that we think actually is an example where you know um it's still a multi-billion dollar space right and you know if you look at NFTs you know last 30-day trading volume about $ 250 to $300 million right so it's not nothing right um so if you are the market leader in that era you're doing okay right it's just that maybe and of course what's driving that is also interesting which is interesting enough Pokemon right so it's not It's trading cards and Pokemon cards is flying right now.

>> Exactly. And blockchain, what did it do? It made it more transparent, more available, more accessible. Right. So, so again, one would have said, well, are NFTs dead? Not at all. Right. And more importantly, that market is growing and other people are saying, well, Pokemon did that. Actually, how could I do that? How could do different things? And we're going to see a different type of onchain experience because of that. Right. So, so it's it's still very much early days, right? I think it's very too early to say. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. getting into that kind of AI agent uh conversation a bit bit of a segue. We have a question from the audience. Does Yat own a Sooi Play, the handheld gaming device built by the Sui team?

>> Uh I do not. Um so I mean we you know we we do have uh you know all sorts of gaming devices but I do not have a a Suie play. I I think honestly I think these these are devices that are cool but they're kind of early right. I I had one of the early Solana phones and then forced to experiment around it. Um but you know I would say the real sort of the real gamecher uh to us is agentic AI because agentic AI is sort of similar to to my thinking a little bit how sort of you know AI kind of replacing apps right they're building everything for you for instance like the other day I basically had my AI agents literally just make a sort of custom game uh because you know I I for me it was like 5 minutes I just

said oh make me a whle game but don't make it like five letters make it seven letters give it this, you know, what kind of, you know, make make it based on geography or something. Boom, boom, boom, done in five or 10 minutes. Put a website, launch it out, and that's it. Entertainment for just me and my family and my friends. >> Maybe it's the only game I'll ever play on that one. Who cares, right? Or maybe I can share it with friends, right? Right. So, in that sense, traditional ways of software different applications are all going to go away. 90% of apps are all going to disappear. Agents are going to do everything for you. And then, of course, this is the key part for us in the industry, which is that well, how are agents going to pay? How are they going to transact? It's going

to happen through blockchain. They have wallets on the back. Uh you have to digital identity. All the things that we're building before, you know, everything, you know, I was talking later on stage, you know, seven or eight years ago when CryptoKitties first launched, millions of dollars basically melted Ethereum. It couldn't do anything. It couldn't transact, right? And today, trillions of dollars, no problem on chain, right? So that's basically sort of, you know, the agentic banking system that is now possible. uh because humans are still aren't using it as much as we'd like to. But agents, no problem. My mom's going to get onto crypto whether she knows it's crypto or not because her AI agent is going to do the transaction for her, right? And they're going to do transactions with each other, right? So I think and I think also, you know, we're going to

have many more agents than humans, right? The average number that I mean, how many agents do you think you'll have? >> I don't know. I have one right now on on OpenClaw on Telegram and it's cooking, >> right? Right. So you think you'll probably have more than one >> for sure. >> Yeah. Right. So the average number that a lot of people on stage when I asked them we said oh three to five right um I have 200 and if you want we can talk about that I have >> 200 agents yet. Yes, but I and I think we should talk about that as well because I think agents the way you use agents matter because I think a lot of people are still using agents in many ways like in a as an quasa extension >> to chatt uh when in fact actually AI

agents can do so much more because they become your co-workers uh they actually can also be very social they can connect your friends right so so you know so we can talk about that but but generally speaking I think you know we think there's going to be hundreds of billions of agents in the world and they're all going to have wallets and they're going all transact with each other and by time that we've had this conversation, our agents probably did a 100 different transactions that are probably like a micro fraction of a of a of of a cent or something. Again, blockchain tokenization is perfect for that. >> So, I'd love to understand what the 200 agents are doing. How do you interact with them?

>> What what kind of prompting do they prompt each other? What are they doing? What's the flow with your agents like? So, so I think the the the one thing for us to understand is that if you're using cloud co-work anyway or if you're using perplexity computer, you're basically using sub agents anyway, right? You're not using one agent. You're using the orchestrator communicates with you, but off the back you're doing having six, seven, 8, 10, 12 agents doing different stuff, >> but they're only there for that moment in time. >> Imagine if those agents uh and and just to just just to go there before like the reason it has to do that is to deal with hallucinations, to deal with all the problems around sort of context, right?

you tell your agent too much, right? And it's the same agent, then they get start to get confused, right? That's why you have those sub agents on the back and sort of deal with this. Now, imagine though that those sub agents actually aren't just sub agents that just sort of come and go. They actually have persistent memory for that particular activity. So, an example might be, you know, legal work, right? My agent isn't going to be the best lawyer because Claude will probably be better from the resource standpoint, but that will know what I'm looking for in the legal contract, will have my customizations, will understand that type of stuff. So when I pair my let's call it in-house agent lawyer with claude lawyer then you have a real powerhouse right as an example right um the other thing of course is that you know I have agents

can be social our agents in animal minds are very very social in a sense that I can introduce them to friends and people so for instance your your telegram agent that you have would you give it to your co-workers >> no >> no because he has stuff that you might want to share on it >> way too much on it right but you might want to give an agent you know for your friends or your work will you communicate with them differently, right? It's a split up. Um the mental model I have is think about how many people you interact on a sort of let's say business transactional or relational level in one year. It's not five people. >> Yeah.

>> It's like 30 people, 50 people, you know, maybe just for a week when you go holiday. Maybe it's a restaurant you keep going to. Maybe it's like a network that you know, maybe it's your employees or worker or sort of sort of co-workers that you have, right? So you have different networks, right? That's kind of how you can think of agents, right? because you're segregating them and connecting them into these different subnets, right? And of course, just to the 200, I don't talk to all 200. I mean, I have a company to run as well, right? So, so um I have more like really 20 to 30 that are my main agents >> and then they have the sub agents beneath them, right? >> But then they organize them and they basically create the prompts themselves as well and launch them.

>> Yeah. They become promptless. >> They become Yeah, exactly. >> There's a large trend towards this promptless agentic world, right? And that was the big unlock for me with open claw versus like just using claw or I mean co-work is a bit different but chat you can see as well they're very it's very like uh descriptive and like here's what to do and like let me tell you what to do whereas uh when I talk to my open claw it's much more prescriptive in the sense that it comes to you correct it will come to me with like I I just did this do you want me to try this do you want to do this let's do this >> and then over time they start to know your preferences so in for instance for my coding agents I used to prompt my coding agent with a later setup. Now I

just clone them. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Because because uh so basically it's my coding agent's children if you will, right? Uh because they basically have the methodology that I like, the preferences that I like, and you can upgrade them and change stuff. The LLM will change, but some of the base stuff like, you know, what font types do you like, how do you what do you look for? You know, he's not going to be the best coder, but he's going to have basically all the preferences that I that I appreciate like and they basically just go on autopilot. Uh and the craziest thing is you know from from just like say 3 months ago I had to do a lot of work with them and so this example about where it just wrote this sort of miniame for me for instance just for fun and

entertainment I was basically I gave it a single prompt and it just did that because of course the harness was set up correctly now right um you know it can do slides and presentations and other stuff but it takes some work to set it up and once it's set up you're ready to go right and I think this is the part where that sort of you know the setup that you have is going to be something that you might be able to sell. >> Sure. >> So, we actually think >> that's the big opportunity, right? Because I'm like, hey, I designed this for restaurants or for coffee shops or whatever, right? Now, I'm just going to reproduce that and sell it to you or give it to you. Right.

>> Uh, and I think the aha moment for us was when, you know, we we had sort of, you know, through a portfolio of ours called Ethosform, we' actually already had the system, but we didn't really see the moment until openclaw came out and we're like, holy [ __ ] Because, of course, open claw wasn't ready at all. I mean, with all the faults and issues that it had. So, as a company, we would never launch a product like that. We're like, there's no way we could launch a product that was in alpha beta, but then when it came out, it was like, okay, we got to hurry up. Um, it demonstrated not only that it could do stuff on your behalf. It also demonstrated personality.

>> So, I think a lot of things that um and that's why the social aspect of agentic AI is often not well understood. And that's kind of what we're focusing on animals with Hello Minds >> because >> for instance how it's connecting friends and relationships by just putting an agent to help not just schedule stuff but then communicate deal with stuff you know restaurant bookings food recommendations right that's incredibly social uh you know over WhatsApp and Telegram u that's actually sort of an agent really impacting our life on a day-to-day basis I can totally see for instance in my mind cuz agents are looking stuff on your behalf do we do we need a Tinder in future or will your agent just find your dates for you and communicate with other agents as on your behalf and figure it out and get to much

more refined candidates, shall we say, by the time you actually have your date. And that may seem like something you're not thinking about. You're thinking more transactional, but actually the entire social relational aspect of agents is completely underserved. Uh, which we think is going to be really, really big. >> This is fascinating. I'm just I'm just over here thinking that I've got to upgrade my agents. >> You don't have an open claw yet, man. I've got, >> but you don't need an open claw. I mean, sorry, this is going to be a little bit of a plug, right? You can basically just go on Hello Minds, set up one with all the capabilities of claw, >> hello Minds, >> Hello Minds.ai, right? And what's interesting about Hello Minds is with a click, um, you basically have an AI agent. Uh, it's email based, can be on

Telegram and on WhatsApp as well. But the reason we didn't give it a chat interface is because we wanted it to feel like a relationship, right? So, so instead of saying, you know, for instance, what did you call your what did you call your open claw? >> Uh, chef clanker. >> Chef Clanker. Okay. So, you already gave it a personality. A lot of people, a lot of people name their first AI agent like you know like calendar agent or like coding tool or they give it a very mechanical name. >> By the time they use it and they have new agents, they start giving them first and second sort of names. >> Yeah. Yeah. Mine was full name.

>> Yeah. And then and then you start creating sort of a social relationship with them and then they go, "Oh, okay." And then you know it's it's the whole parasocial as well right uh where you know um in fact you know uh one of our internal conversations is that maybe this is what the metaverse was supposed to be. >> Oh interesting. >> Yeah >> I like that. I like that framing as well. And so Hello Minds is a portfolio company of >> it's actually something that we incubated. >> Okay. And um and so you can launch a mind and so >> notice how we called it a mind not it is good branding. Yeah.

>> And so the idea is and so so this gives you all the power of an open claw without the security vulnerabilities. >> Well, security vulnerabilities are you know one of the reasons why open call has security vulnerability is because you give them access on your local computer. So this is not on your computer. It's cloud-based. You have to give it permission on your email and that kind of stuff. Um it has its own wallet, right? So uh what's interesting is that you can pay it tokens. It converts the tokens into cognition credits, right? So you don't you can of course use a credit card. So that's kind of a sort of a neat thing. But also when you build a skill actually you get paid for it. Yeah.

>> Right. So it's kind of like an app store in itself. And and by the way I think all the skills and applications that AI agents are building are going to completely replace the app store. Right. Most applications and software is going to go away because AI agents are going to build stuff for you. They can code they can build stuff. They can do everything that an openclaw does um except that they can now basically also be social. And the wildest part is when you bridge agents with other agents and they start communicating and and and solving problems and stuff like that. Um, so for instance, if my agent was talking to your agent because you needed help with something, um, that's actually one way to which you could interact. So we think that's going to be really powerful as well.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. And your 200 agents are all Are they all minds? >> They're all mines, right? >> So now I do I do have So I probably tried like 50 VPS open claws before. I do have a few of those. My my very first open claw setup I still have just because it's little sort of, you know, you get attached to it and you've got stuff going there and you're like, "Okay, I want to shut it off." Cuz when you shut it off, it feels a little bit like you're killing it. So Yeah. Yeah. And Chef Clanker is going to stay around forever. >> Yeah. Even if it's like even if it's like an old version of that, it's like it's like keeping your old Ford Mustang or something, right? Um but uh but uh the minds, you know, um because they communicate basically in a in a lifelike

manner uh and they understand you well, they start coming to you with solutions. So I'm busier than ever by making decisions, >> right? Because essentially what an agent does it gives agency in a very powerful way not for the agent itself but for the end for for you as a human you basically having to make decisions time and time and time and time again but I think um knowing how to construct them is a key part and the reason why I have 200 agents is because you can't have one agent do everything right if you haven't everything it's just going to hallucinate it's going to go all over the place >> yeah that's this problem that I struggle with >> when it's like managing schedule and sales and meetings and >> that's why you have to have sub agents right >> reminders it's like it's doing too It

like it like mixes different things that shouldn't be mixed automatically somehow. >> Yeah. Because because it doesn't have the kind of intelligence we have. It's a simulated intelligence, right? So you need to get make sure the context basically remains focused. Uh so what you so but what you can now do is you can still have clanker do your stuff but now clanker can be set up with an anima minds. >> The reason is you don't have to think of an agent as exclusive, right? You basically just connect it and say okay clanker will be your main communicator. However, why don't you set if let's say it's restaurant bookings or travel arrangements or maybe trading or whatever. You basically have animal commands do that.

>> This one just interfaces with client like a markets agent and like a very specific like client agent like I I need very contextfocused. >> Yes. And then they get powerful, right? And then they can also have their own sub agents off the back and they do the work, right? And then and then that's actually where you basically get sort of that that setup. I think a lot of people uh find that you know confusing because maybe they're not used to man. So if you have managed people before >> it's very natural. >> If you haven't managed people before then it feels like you know like um maybe you're not comfortable ordering them around or doing that kind of stuff but but actually um it's basically that next level of like everyone will become a manager. We think the whole future is not going to be you doing work per se.

You're going to be orchestrating agents to do the work. Right? the better you are at orchestrating them, the more valuable you become because your power amplifies because you can now like if you are someone who can orchestrate a 100 agents, you're more valuable than someone who could orchestrate just 10 agents for example. >> I I've got a bit of a philosophical question. I I have we had a great philosophical conversation last time. >> Do you think the most valuable form of human work is making decisions? Oh well, so if you go back to the uh days of um I think Aris it was Aristotle who said that uh sort of um uh basically philosophy is the is the and sort of alo polus sorry politics is the and it's not in the context of how we think of politics today right polus is the most

important and valuable sort of thing that we should be doing as humans right so you know in the early days of Greek democracy you know the height was we sit there and we debate right and we discuss the world and everything around that hence polus uh whereas you know everyone else you know does the worker stuff right and so we elevate right of course back then you know you had slavery and the hell outs and all that kind of stuff so take that aside right um those are the agents so the agents are doing the work and we can focus on what makes us human which is essentially discussion debate philosophy higher plane stuff um I certainly believe in that I like to think of it more in terms of creativity right um I think I'm not sure if I said it on on on your show but you know there

was this interesting study that showed that um you know they followed this uh from children from the age of five until 15. Um and what they demonstrated was that we are born creative in the sense that over 90% of the children who are 5 years old scored over 90% in sort of being uh sort of creative in their problem solving. By the time they were 15 it was around 8%. >> So so it it decreased massively. uh the creative ability of people decreases >> massively right as a George Land Bethany Jarvis that's a study that you can find there's a TED talk on it as well um and um uh the adults that were measured that were 21 years of age it's 2%.

So it's just deterior. The creative mind deteriorates. >> But but but it wasn't that humans aren't were sort of taught to be creative. It's a fact that creativity was taken away from us because we had to be machines. >> Schooling taught us to be compliant with society. It said you have to follow these rules, right? Um you know because if you had an entire classroom full of El Musks, you can't control that classroom and it would be difficult, right? But of course the world has changed, right? And so now we need to get everyone to stay creative because we have these tools that machines are basically now able to do that humans used to do right and in the same way when you think about blockchain the entire infrastructure we humans were the P for the block basically for blockchain

we proved scalability we proved digital identity we we proved all these things but it was very difficult for most humans to use enter the agent right so we're not going to get to onchain to billions of users onchain directly but we're going to get to tens of billions of agents on chain who are acting on behalf of humans. That's kind of how how we think of the >> very cool. >> Yeah, man. >> Thank you so much for joining. Thank you so much. >> Always a pleasure. >> More of our shared portfolio companies doing well. I'm going to have to try out Mines and thank you, man. >> Please watch some mines. Thanks.

>> Have a great week. All right. >> Thanks. Cheers. >> We'll see you next time, man. >> All right, guys. I think you got a good call to action here from our guy. Yeah. Hello. Is where you can get your swarm of agents. I've got one chef clanker. Go ahead and tell my chef clanker himself to just go in and start setting that up. Please goanker to Hello Mind an agent on Hello Minds.ai. So yes, this is my agent is going to set up his own agent on Hello Minds.ai. Let's see what he comes back out to. I also have a tuxedo rental reminder as well as my travel plans here.

>> You getting a tuxedo? >> Boys going to weddings. Getting old these days. cuz all my friends are getting married. Except I'm over here just mogging the whole world. Staying. All right, here's what Hello Minds is saying. Personally, an agent that handles emails, bookings, daily tasks to get started. Please set up the agent >> mogging the whole world. I really I I you know Yacht Yacht's very uh he's very correct about some of the early philosophers and uh the highest form of human uh the highest form of human spirit and spending your time uh in discussions and managing these things and that's a lot of the inspiration for this show.

>> We have uh our our friend is coming to tell us something. You want to make an appearance? We're live. >> We got Yoshi from Alpaca ready to join us. Ladies and gentlemen, we're going to pass it over to the panels real quick and be back with Yoshi. Don't go anywhere. Be less than a minute or two. Get Yoshi up and then we've got John from Coinbase. We're going to keep it rolling, guys. We'll be right back. Jo

All right. How great. >> Check. One, two. How great was that? I get excited about conversations like that. I don't know about you guys, but I love hearing from the people who uh who can help me build legacy for my lineage the way that uh the way that their forefathers built for them. So, um I don't know how everyone's doing, but I'd love for you to take your seats. We have an exciting keynote from Alexis from yellow. It may not be your favorite color yet, but after this presentation, you just might change your mind. Everybody, let's give a big round of applause for Alexis.

>> Thank you. >> I love the hat, man. >> Thank you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Hi, guys. So we came to speak about uh trust and my sto my first story is about shoes and we all have these stories that we trusted people and we were deceived or we trusted people and uh and we earned our trust and we is really trust is this fundamental of human society and that's what Bitcoin is all about. Bitcoin was the inspiration of yellow my hat that was given to me with a bitcoin. So what what is this trust? Cuz everybody talks about the centralization but uh crypto

was all about removing trust having a currency that we don't need to trust a government being able to send it to another party without needing to trust a bank. It's it it offered us this. And then came Ethereum and u it gave us this uh trustless uh execution and arbitration. And we don't need to trust people to execute or we don't need to trust judges to arbitrate on smart contracts. Okay. So, well, my story was that I trusted Indiegogo to buy these uh very cool shoes, moon bots, because uh I used to work in the European Space Center. I was a a space engineer and it was like

walking on the moon they promised. But me and all these other people, we got scammed. Um, sorry, let me put this properly. Oops. So, we we all Is it good or not? Not very good. No. So, we all got scammed and we didn't get our shoes, of course. And um and this was the problem that um eBay initially solved uh uh with a centralized intermediary and um two strangers could buy from each other without trusting each other. Okay.

There was the centralized party like eBay. So, a bit like blockchain. >> Ready, Leo? >> Yeah. >> All righty, guys. We are back with Pete Najarian. His size is definitely size. Ladies and gentlemen, we're talking about investing at the highest class of global markets. Pete, welcome to the show man. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> How's my industry? >> Pleasure to have you. >> Good. What's not to love in Miami? >> You give me big Miami vibes like you're a Miami guy. >> I don't know about that. I um I did my first full winner down here this year and I was congratulations of my things.

I don't want to leave. >> Now now we got you. Now you're here. Well, you just got off stage. Why don't uh would love to hear uh you know what you were talking about up there cuz we've been we've been behind the desk. >> You guys have been here. Yeah. We were talking about um just kind of the universe of tokenization. What's real, what's not, what's investable, where the opportunities are. >> Yeah. And um you know we take a sometimes unpopular view at Raptor Digital which I I believe is starting to become proven to be right but um tokenization we wholeheartedly believe in the using this technology stack as proven by what's happened with stable coins to to really do amazing things

globally we certainly think is real. Uh but we think you have to be careful as an investor to find the lanes like all RWA are not the same right. >> Sure. >> And there's a lot of capital that's chasing tokenization of equities um tokenization of private credit etc in ways that um I just think you got to be careful on timing a little bit. >> Yeah. >> We tend to get excited right now about opportunities in emerging market economies.

>> There we go. where and I had a background before I get I got into crypto in 2017 as an operator first um at a company called Zapo working for the I think one of the most interesting Cubans on the planet Wus Kazarus and um I ran the institutions business there which we sold to Coinbase and prior to that I ran global emerging markets at UBS so I'd had a 20-year Wall Street career and the majority of that time I was in emerging markets full-time and that You know, that's a world in which you're you're in countries all over the world constantly kind of moving risk around and bringing institutional big pools of institutional capital into

interesting opportunities in country in places like Brazil in you know Eastern Europe throughout Latin America etc. And I think that's where tokenization is going to really shine. I think you know when you look at the demographics of countries like Brazil and you look at the amount of credit that is required that is that is floating in those countries but is required for those countries to go to even the next step of their own development and then you pair that with the institutional capital that exists and with largely now retail capital from around the world that's interested in participating. There's some really interesting tokenization opportunities

there. I think um when we talk about tokenization and this is what we were the point I was just making on the panel you want to look you know look for the opportunities that are in which real problems are being solved right and you know the example I used is yeah it's going to be nice for someone in Indonesia to be able to buy Apple stock but does that really matter right now Yeah. All right. >> Where the things I'm talking about in in places like Brazil that are credit related are really interesting ways to take risk and attach it to big pools of international capital. The other thing

to look for in or the way we think about solving problems is look for industries and I think Figure's done this well. >> Yep. Look for industries that are that have multi-layered rent takers. >> Yeah. >> So like the residential mortgage industry, >> right? There might be four layers of rent takers from the time a mortgage or more from the time a mortgage is originated or in the process of the early innings of origination till that mortgage is sold in a pool. >> That wouldn't be the case in a tokenized version in an onchain >> resi mortgage originator, right? Done right. So I think and there are opportunities the insurance industry I think industries that are highly regulated this is where it's hard

because they're regulated ind but we're but we're entering this time where with the clarity act that whole universe can change. You can find industries that are highly regulated >> that are huge in terms of TAM that have layered rent takers. >> Those are tokenizationable. Those are markets for tokenization. Yeah. >> Which can in which you can build a platform that actually, you know, is an IPOable idea as Kagny's done with >> Fig.

>> So I mean I I I I >> we think that >> all of the origination, trading, settlement, custody of all assets over time lives on chain. I believe in that premise. But as an investor, you got to get the timing right of which lanes are going to get the flywheel spinning fastest. >> Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the tokenization efforts have just solely been focused on getting access to US investors to get their assets into the hands of the global investor, right?

It's been get tokenized equities, tokenized stable coins, right? Just as themselves. But there's not been a lot of focus on getting global investment opportunities into the hands of more western world investor. >> There's a dirty little secret about stable coins that nobody talks about. First of all, why did stable coins originally exist? They existed because there were no off-ramps, on-ramps and off-ramps in the banking system for crypto. >> So, a bunch of money was made early in this in this space. >> But to move that capital around, you needed a vehicle to do that. That was the origin of stable coins. Sure. And people will argue and I agree that yes, but they're creating an opportunity for people to own dollars around the world

in places that people want to own dollars. That's true. And that's huge. Why does that matter? It's because we talk about the US dollar like it's the reserve currency of the world, and it's not. It's the reserve currency of the West. The dollar is the reserve currency of countries that don't have capital controls. Mhm. >> It's not a reserve currency in Argentina. Why? Because there's a limit to how many dollars you can own. It's not it's not a reserve currency in Turkey because there's a limit to how many dollars you can. And the reason for that is that those countries can't let themselves just be dollarized overnight.

They have local debt in local currency. They have local economies that are built in local currency terms. Fragile as those currencies may be, that's how their economies are built. You can't just take all that indebtedness and just and just allow the those economies to dollarize overnight. So for a long time it would it it felt like the US was going to try and limit the amount of dollars that could be bought offshore in the way that they always have and they would limit stable coin adoption. And if we had this conversation three or four years ago that would have been a smart premise but some interesting things happened.

Most notably, the Japanese central bank and the Chinese central bank stopped funding our budget deficit. But and how did they do that? They stopped buying as many US treasuries. >> We're manufacturing debt in the US at a pace like we've never manufactured before. And and a couple of our biggest buyers have slowed down their purchases of treasuries. So what did we allow to happen? We allowed dollarization to start to happen in countries where it hadn't before using stable coins. So that's all super real and those and that's the momentum of that can be massive.

That's very different than the pace of that happening is very different than to expect that's going to happen with US equities overnight. >> Right. >> Right. Again, all real world assets aren't the same. the dollar access to the US dollar globally is a very different thing than taking your wealth and buying other stuff that's dollar denominated. Now again, I believe all that happens. >> All that will happen over time. >> It's just a matter of if you're an investor, you want to get the the cadence and the timing of how that all unpacks right?

>> Yeah. Well, we we realize your time is limited here, but want to want to get a sense of maybe just it it'd be helpful to just get a sense of how you foresee countries like Brazil, the emerging markets there. You mentioned why they're prime and right for tokenization. And when you speak about onchain, you speak about credit. Is it is it the idea that there's so much capital inefficiencies that tokenization going into those emerging market >> simply that now Brazil's an interesting case because they've got a bunch of announcements out of the central bank about limiting >> crypto movements internationally.

>> Yeah. >> So yes, for an economy to really grow it needs credit. >> Yeah. >> It needs it needs like like the sweet spot of real growth separate from like countries that own huge deposits of natural resources. The sweet spot of real growth is a stable currency, a young demographic broadly, and access to credit. >> Sure. >> In a world where currencies are not stable, but they're not constantly devaluing in some of these countries.

They found some level of stability. Demographics are right. The missing ingredient is credit. And it's hard, you know, as these countries grow, they're trying to generate internal sources of credit. But I don't think people fully grasp how much the growth of the US economy was born out of the fact that that as an economy, we created unbelievable access to credit broadly from, you know, easy examples like car loan and car loans and mortgage loans, but really there's credit everywhere in the US. that doesn't exist in that way in certainly in emerging economies and and the reason for that is it's hard to underwrite the risk. Well, if you can

find interesting ways to tokenize that that risk, you will find demand for that risk from international investment >> because it's easier to extend the credit because you it's difficult to make defined investments in local currency. If you look at the EM investment managers, the emerging market big pools of institutional emerging market capital, they all now do more and more in local currency terms in local credit than they did certainly 10 years ago. Significantly more.

>> Used to be a used to be a sovereign debt game. Now it's increasingly a local credit game. >> There's demand to be able to underwrite credit and underwrite risk in high growth countries. >> Yeah. >> Tokenization could play a role. >> Yeah. Pete, thank you for spending some time with us. Um, you got it. Great. It was a pleasure. That was like a That was like an emergency master class. I love it. >> But you uh it's worth what you paid for it, guys. We'll see you later. Take care. >> Thanks, dude. All righty, guys. We've got Yoshi from Alpaca joining us up next man.

>> He's been He's been around the block. You can tell. >> Yeah, definitely has. >> Yeah. Very, very cool to see. Uh our producers chatting him up behind the scenes and Yoshi up. We're gonna get Yoshi up in just a moment. >> Big DTC day today. >> Huge tokenization bulls in the tokenized capital summit here today. Miami Beach. Tokenization is >> Let's get Yoshi up and have some fun, man. >> Big news today from the DT. >> Come on over, Yoshi. >> Yoshi is back.

Let's go, brother. >> There he is. Pleasure to see you. >> Yes, Yoshi. >> How are you doing, Yoshi? How do you find Miami Beach? >> Great. Great. Like I don't think it's Miami Beach yet. >> Downtown right here, but Miami down beach next from tomorrow, right? >> Yeah, you got that right. Yeah. Weather will be a little bit late better later this week. Uh then we'll all enjoy Miami Beach as we know it. Um man, tokenizing big news out of the DTC. Tokenization is the word here today. >> How are you approaching the news out of DTC? Alpaca listed first. might have been alphabetical reasons but obviously you guys strategical naming >> right first in the phone book right >> yes >> big tokenization how are you guys approaching this space today

>> no like we continue to be the de facto underlying securities custodian for the tokenized stocks and then we've been very close with the DTCC uh in like a lot of initiatives that they're doing so like it's amazing we finally able to announce that uh this like list of the uh participation into the DTCC working group >> yeah man and so Maybe you could just explain a bit let I'd like to get more into the services but could you just educate the audience a bit about the exact role that alpaca plays. I think the first time we spoke I grasped it a bit but then I talked to Arouche over a workout and I really grasped it and so maybe just help us understand >> everyone knows the likes of dinari ando

and these types secured size these names that are tokenizing equities but tell us about how alpaca fits in that picture. Yeah, definitely. So, like I think like you know as SEC announced there are like a few ways of uh saying the tokenization, right? Yeah. And then right now like you know what's actually getting the most attention and then product market fit which I think it you know symbolizes by uh trading volume is definitely that like you know tokenization that's you know basically issued and wrapped by the uh tokenized issuers that includes like next stocks uh Dinary Ono and all those guys. But in order to do that like you know you need to have the underlying securities that all those players need to put those into the safe location so that they can create tokens uh on top of that like you

know the security that's been protected in some safe place. So that you know where we play like we are the custodian we're the member of the DTCC. So we have the very safe location account that basically secures those underlying securities where on dininary backed utilize to issue tokens on top of that. >> Got it. So basically without you guys these companies could not properly tokenize and custody these equities. >> Yeah. I think like you know that we can go back like you know few years four years ago if you remember Luna protocol >> that basically didn't have any like you know backed securities right yeah of course >> and then like know it just like went nowhere what's important here is that like you know trust and then like you know the why it's safe why it's safe is

the underlying securities is custody at the fra or register you know bulletproof proof uh you know custodian right I think that is a key component >> and so earlier today we had Zach from Gayscale talking about how the current structure of ownership and custody works when it comes to equities. He mentioned, you know, you have a trader. They talk to the broker. The broker talks to the to the, you know, uh, custodian. The custodian talks to transfer agent. I think there was even more intermediaries in there that I'm going to skip. >> There was like five. And then we just had Peton talking about these multi-layered uh, industries, right, that are ripe for >> discussion. Multiple rent seekers in a particular stack. And so it's no surprise that tokenization is going

after financial instruments as a means of innovation. Where exactly in the traditional equity structure does a custodian sit and how are you innovating but also playing nice with some of the existing players? >> So I I think that what we have to be very clear about is that like all the players that you mentioned um in a way we're using the word same tokenization each of the players actually talking about different ways of the tokenization. right now like we use the word the same tokenization right >> but it's actually not exactly the same >> different different parts of the tokenization stack >> yes and then there's like tokenization of the DTCC registered certificate there's a tokenization of nonDTCC registered certificate and that you know how you actually tokenize them is very

different process >> okay >> that's why you don't hear like you know securityize super into this like know DTCC registered securities and then like vice versa right so even though we use the same tokenization word we have to think about Those are all different things. However, what's important is that the goal is exactly the same. We're working towards putting all the financial assets or even real world assets on chain and there will be multiple ways that we have to try and we'll see what sticks, right? >> Yeah. >> And and so yes, sticking with the DTC given the announcement today. >> Yeah. The service >> the the service tell us more about the tokenization service exactly how we should see this coming out. It'll be released later in the year. What should people expect from the DTC's

tokenization service? Of course like you know there are a lot of discussion points and like there are so many things that I cannot really talk about in the details because of the basics but but >> come on y didn't bring you on here for nothing man >> what's important what's important is that DTC is so proactive like you know they are extremely knowledgeable they understand what needs to happen like like I think that ultimately what is ideal is that we don't even need to have the like you know transfi certificate you know that's backing the tokens on chain right now we're going go through that step but like you know DTC also understands that like you know the ideal scenario in the endame state you know they want to make sure that like actual certificate happens natively on chain

but there has to be a process like you know that you know that it goes through DT certificate and then you know the DTC member like us support them to be you know creating the onchain version of it so that that's the step that we are taking together so in a lot of these conversations we've been hearing that there's this massive disruption that's possible from tokenization. In fact, even some of the largest banks like I think it was Jamie Diamond came out and was like tokenization is going to disrupt a lot of banks. You need to get in front of it and kind of be your own disruptor kind of like selfdisrupt or self-destruct type of energy, right? How how kind of aggressive is the tokenization of equities as far as you

know kind of going after incumbents? To me it seems a bit more kind of friendly for my conversation with Arouch. It actually unlocks a lot of different possibilities in terms of loans in terms of better liquidity on the weekends and then also your business has several different lines that previously weren't necessarily possible because of the tokenization aspect. >> Maybe you could just talk to us about this disruption angle and then I'd like to understand a bit better some of the angles of and lines of business that you guys have. I think like when we talking about disruption we have to firstly visualize what it will be at the endame state.

>> Sure. like you know I think like you know the endgame state what will happen is that everything's going to be on chain and then basically issuers which are the companies like including your company uh has to be registered and created on chain to begin with right otherwise you cannot turn the trafi company into the onchain company in the middle and that's the reason why like you know we are having this like wrapped version of the tokenization because like you know all of the companies that exist right now these are trify companies and in order to create a certificate that represents the equity portion of the companies stratify companies would be of course stratify sec certification and that that needs to be like you know the tokenized which means that we have to have some issues utilizing that to make a token right so that's something that

we are still dealing with and I think in terms of the disruption like I think we have to think about is like what will be disrupted I think what will be disrupted would be probably like you know the registration certification of the record but like know there are many things that will continue to stay I think like when the original crypto uh probably two summers ago in terms of another season or summer crypto. Summers ago, we always had this ideal there has to be all consolidated player who has all custodian exchange execution broker dealer and even like you know dealing with the end clients at the exact one company. But look at it now like you know we are now having the uh separate responsibility and accountability because this is how like you know it

works in order to create the right uh investor protection for the end customers and then making sure that there is a less systemic risk as a financial services in in begin with. So I think we have to of course think about disruption but we also have to think about what will not change. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yoshi, one of the things that I think is interesting is in traditional markets, the way that order flow works in the global equities markets is quite different than the way that it works onchain and in crypto. So, Robin Hood pays market makers for really good order flow on trading their equities, right? Like they pay to get pristine um pristine execution. But in the onchain landscape, it's actually quite different such that there's order flow that could be happening with

tokenized equities onchain that alpacco would have access to that. There's a world where you guys could also get paid to give order flow to brokerages. So rather than paying brokerages or market makers for order flow, there are order flow that's happening or there's orders and transactions happening on chain that could be then uh given to other market makers or brokerages. Am I thinking about this correctly? I'm probably missing something. What is the nuance here about the kind of like inverse relationship that tokenization of equities provides comparatively to traditional equities in terms of orderflow?

>> Yeah, I I'll think about it, you know, much simpler like regardless of its own chain or like tokenized securities or like you know regular trusty securities, it works very much the same way. Uh so I think when you say like global equities market, the reality is that US equities market is extremely unique. This is only uh you know one equity market that has like you know tens of the exchanges including ATS which is alternative uh trading system. It has like know tens of them and if you look at like you know the Tokyo or like London stock exchange which are these you know the the one of the biggest exchanges after US stock market has almost only one exchange. So in order for all those like tens of exchanges in the United States for the US stocks to survive, they had to create bunch of the incentive systems like okay

you charge fee for certain order flow you actually pay for certain order flow and because there are so many incentive equation by multiple exchanges there is a player that was born which is market makers. Market makers understand every single incentive and calculation of the how the exchanges will pay or will take the fee and then consolidate it and create the best algorithms to make money from order flow. Those are the wholesale market makers actually like those citadel those guys pay out the money to broker dealers like you know Robin Hood. you know the uh the different float of the money that the money that where it comes from is like you know the coming from the taker fee maker fee bid and offer spread and sometimes like you know

those market makers take a position and make some positive net uh uh revenue and they basically give that out as an incentive to the broker dealers like Robin Hood or US or like most of the other way around. >> Yes. So like but but I think like what's important here is that like each of the exchanges they're going to fight for the liquidity. They want to compete for the liquidity which means that they need to invite more people who can give the liquidity which are market makers which going to attract more flow to come in right so which means that they want to create different incentive structure you may just you know exchanges may pay money to get the liquidity to come into your exchange right some some some exchanges say no no no we're going to be super super straightforward I'm going to charge you fees so I think there are

many characteristics for the each exchanges and they're going to compete for the liquidity and I think we're going to see very similar uh you know narrative and situation that happened to the uh US equities market. Again, US equities market is very unique compared to any other stock market in the world. >> Yeah, I'm I'm thinking about the New York Stock Exchange, their alternative trading system. They're going to be looking to launch tokenized stocks very soon. Um I would imagine that we're going to see uh digital assets in terms of cryptonative tokens right alongside tokenized equities. Who do you think is in a better position to win this race?

Is it a team like Hyperlquid maybe more cryptonative or do you think New York stock exchange alternative trading system is in a better position to serve both markets? >> I think I think like you know in my very naive point of view I think all of them coexist in my opinion. The reason why I say this is that like you see a lot of liquidity of the like you know Bitcoin in the of course like you know bunch of the both DeFi exchange and also the central finance crypto exchange and then we see BT Bitcoin ETF liquidity in the basically trfy exchange as well they all exist and there are players who trade all of them to make the best out of it.

So I think that's what in my opinion we will see. So I don't think it's going to disrupt each other. I think it's going to coexist in my opinion. >> Yeah. Is there a bit of a race right now to get tokenized equities available to US customers? Because from what I understand is that there's some access and availability right now, but it's not like it's certainly not set. And I know there's teams that are launching US equities live for US investors very soon. What is this like? What is the current tokenized equities race for accessibility in the US look like?

>> Very, very good question. So, so, so there there is a a lot of conversations around that like of course genius act and then there's like an SEC actually clarify that crypto asset we now call this tokenized stock like we call it crypto asset security that is official terminology on the SEC website. >> Okay. >> And then we they they also clarify that crypto asset security as long as it's security it's security. >> Yeah. Yeah. So that's what they clarified. However, that the members of the broker basically the broker dealer like ourselves who are interacting with the end customers are governed by the self-regulatory organization which is FINRA. So PINRA needs to also understand how to make sure that broker dealers like ourselves are you know treating these crypto asset securities in a very

safe way. that's currently in the process and it has not been yet um in a way I wouldn't say the clarify but like you know ferment is working really hard to understand that like what is the process that broker dealers have to follow >> so that like you know us customers can you know be uh you know advertise and like actual buy and sell and a lot of >> we're very close >> yeah it's very close it's very close of course like you know us as a company working very closely with the regulators to make sure that like you know giving lot of knowledge uh sharing this is what we're doing. That's what's happening.

So, yeah, like it's getting close. >> So, what's interesting about this is that there's a lot of parallels to how the DTCC was formed, right? It was kind of this coalition of different people in the very beginning, market makers, firms that were kind of like came together and then set like here's how we're doing equities. And then the regulatory bodies came in and were like, okay, you guys are the you guys are the DCCC, you guys have this control. It kind of seems like Alpaca is leading like this like coalition of like the tokenization the tokenized version of this kind of just trailblazing it saying this is how it's going to be done. These are the companies that are leading and the the regulations kind of following it. Do you see similar parallels to the way that

tokenized equity market and the way that it's kind of being formed to the actual equities market was formed in terms of the DTC and the members of the coalition? >> Yeah, definitely. I see that because like you know I don't think this can be done by any one player and that's that's the reason why you're saying like DTC is a membership right it's a membership of like around like 100 financial institutions basically putting the you know capital and then making sure that like all the systemic risk of the financial services are mitigated so it has to be a partnership amongst the people like you who are getting involved and that's the reason why like we continue to try to partner with as many players as possible in both new and old because like I think that is the only way to like accelerate what's happening

uh into the tokenization like I I so that's why like we try to be as friendly as possible try to be welcoming as possible that's our attitude >> yeah very cool >> I mean that that's the way to do it that's how you bring together the two worlds that are able to accelerate the entire thing you converge them and then ultimately you're able to harmonize the two of them and it creates something new as a result and that's what has been born out of this industry >> very cool >> Yoshi enjoy your week in Miami thanks for spending some time with us man it's a big busy week for tokenization. It feels like the whole industry is growing up, right? Last time we were in DC with the regulatory center. This time it's like everyone's wearing a shirt with a collar or a suit. I mean,

>> you are wearing jacket. >> Yeah. I don't know, man. I don't know if I can do that, Yoshi. >> We'll get him. We'll get him. Thank you so much for coming. Cheers, man. >> Yeah. Pleasure meeting you, dude. >> Take take it easy, man. >> All righty, guys. We're just going to tokenize everything. Do a quick check in. BTC still over 80 amidst the UAE Iran escalated conflicts. We don't really care. We're just going to keep sending it. >> That's absolutely the case. Um >> we've got we've got just bullish vibes in the room today. I mean we are just things are bullish. Like the energy is up. This event is great. Gamma Prime has put on an amazing event and we just have great great speakers. Coming up, we've got a Coinbase Ventures investor following Han Ventures

>> large round. We've got Jonathan King, investor at Coinbase Ventures. Guy's got a big smile on his face. I think he's stoked to be here. >> Jonathan, what's going on, man? >> Nice to meet you guys. >> Yeah, thank you. >> Everyone was saying CryptoVC is dead. Today, Han Ventures comes out with a billion dollar raise. >> Baby, we're back. >> That's a billion more dollars. And I'm hearing things as well for more coming this week, man. How are you Jonathan? >> I'm good. Really excited to be here. You know um Coinbase Ventures were representing um for consensus this week. We have Salana Accelerate and you know going to spend a lot of time in the ecosystem and you know figuring out where builders are spending their nights and weekends and those are the teams we want to back.

>> Yeah. Very cool. Tell us a little bit about the Coinbase investment thesis. I mean you guys obviously have one of the largest centralized exchanges in the US. So that provides a lot of synergy for up and cominging projects. Uh the base ecosystem is flourishing. give us a sense of what you're looking for in early stage founders. >> Yeah, sure. So, you know, just a bit of background on based venture. So, we started the fund back in 2018. We invest entirely from our balance sheet and even though technically yes, we are a corporate venture arm. We, you know, optimize for driving financial returns. I would say roughly 80 to 90% of the investments that we do are financial driven, 10 to 20 on like the strategic nature. And so, more broadly, you know, we primarily I would say focus on seed series A. We are stage agnostic. uh

we're being very concentrated in terms of where we're deploying capital being very thesis driven and some of the areas that I think are starting to manifest is really like things around stable coins and payments. Um we're spending a lot of time in the intersection of crypto and AI and things that we're seeing with like agency commerce and the launch of like X42 by by Coinbase and then just thinking about like trading and activity more broadly. So very exciting time and you know we invest in all market cycles. So this is the best time to kind of be in the market for us. >> Man, part of the Han announcement that was interesting to me was like we we've raised a billion to do crypto and then and AI agents. Yes.

>> Right. It's very much I think there's a lot of investor appeal in that AI kind of realm as it intersects with with crypto. What what is the kind of current stage of that intersection? Right. I think in the beginning there was a lot of decentralized inference compute type of companies. Now you know that then we had that very interesting like kind of like fake agent craze that like memecoin craze and then now we're kind of firmly in like the agentic AI era. What does that look like for uh an early stage investor like where are the convergence opportunities that you're seeing? Yeah.

So you you're absolutely spot on in terms of like how the intersection of crypto and AI has evolved and how we've tend to thought to to think about it is really there's a difference between like decentralized AI and now where we're kind of seen as onchain AI. So decentralized AI was mainly like democratizing access to inference and training compute and models and that's really bringing like the elements of like blockchain crypto properties into the AI world. Now we're kind of seeing like AI come into crypto in new and interesting ways. And that's either way you have agents that are being equipped with self-custodial wallets, right? They are actually trading and participating in some of these markets. We're giving agent um stable coins as like a new form of like programmable and permissionless

money um so that way they can transact. If you believe in a world where you know we're going to have millions may perhaps billions of these agents and they're going to be performing these microtransactions on behalf of humans then you essentially need you know this kind of permissionless new form of machine capable money and we think that stable coins is going to kind of play that play a very important role there. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um obviously you guys are big on stable coins everyone is. Um I'm curious how you see the path of stable coins progressing from here. Um, it feels like it's still a national priority. Like stable coins are one of the biggest buyers of treasuries and so it almost feels like kind of for once in this industry's life like the they almost like they need our business more than we

need theirs. >> Sure. >> H how do you think this is going to progress and grow as we uh as we continue to proliferate stable coins all over the world? >> Yeah, it's a really great question and you're right. Like I would say stable coins and payments is our bread and butter. Um, and that's not only from the investment angle, but also from like Coinbase and where we're spending our our time. And so if you zoom out and kind of look at the numbers, right? So last year's in the stable coin market, $33 trillion in transactions. In January, we had 10 trillion. In the last couple of months, 26 a.5. So certainly the pace of an adoption of stable coins is is is um accelerated at this stage.

And we're seeing like you know better advancements with Genius Act and some of the things we're seeing from regulatory front that we're now getting more institutions involved in stable coin markets and that's just like thinking about just the US right when you zoom out in the US and like things around remittances and crossber payments right and so we we're seeing a lot of activity in emerging market stable coin providers whether that's localized yeah localized stable coins um to just kind of building the existing payment rails and so I would say stable coins and payments is probably the most dominant like topic right now, but also that's where a lot of builders are spending their time and likewise that's where we're spending our time from an investment perspective.

>> Have you guys done a lot of deals this year? >> We have. So we've done roughly 30 to 40 deals um just this year alone >> and have you found there's a lot less competition than in the last year or two or has it been like what's kind of the state of that side of things? you know, I would say like anytime, you know, the markets are, you know, a bit slow, right? Um, you know, you will see that, you know, rounds and fundraisers take a little bit longer time to come together. But for us, you know, it's always been business as usual, right? We're always actively deploying capital no matter what's happening in the markets. And so, we actually make some of our best investments within this particular sector. And that's because like the builders that are just keeping their heads down and really spending time like

ignoring all of the noise, those are the builders that we want to back. And so we're we're constantly seeing a lot of activity. Again, being more concentrated, being very thematic, but we're actively deploying capital into a multitude of different sectors. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Some some of the context around around that last question. I mean, follow up here is, you know, we we've said that crypto VC is essentially on hard mode now. It's you're playing it's not easy. It's and now we're on expert mode. Um part of the reason is because a lot of these uh companies have started to reach some product market fit. They're looking at larger check sizes, larger rounds. Um and then you've also got uh some of the more traditional VCs that kind of grew up in Silicon Valley and did really well are now looking at the industry as it's

matured and starting to come together. >> A lot of those VCs are now coming in. And so it feels like these two worlds are colliding and there's some more competition in some sense from the larger players but maybe less competition from the traditional cryptovc native funds. Are you do do you see this on the ground? Is this kind of the case? Yeah, I do think like that convergence is happening and primarily in the stable coin payments I would say asset tokenization sectors because what's happening is that you know traditional fintexs for example are now starting to enter the crypto markets through things like stable coins and you know building on top of blockchains to advance like their tokenization efforts or leveraging you know APIs for

embedding yield in like let's say you know their products right so you see a lot of like you know crypto enabled Neo banks and so it's very fun for us because now it's you know broadening our aperture for what we can go after from an investment lens right like we always want to see Coinbase visions will always be a cryptonative crypto first fund so we always want to see like there is some type of crypto blockchain component right so it gives us it's given us an opportunity to kind of look at some of these traditional businesses and looking at some of the use cases that are starting to emerge >> yeah are you guys also investing in companies that are like supporting the vision of like circle and arc like is that like thematic for you guys.

>> Yeah. So, you know, Coinbase Ventures, we are ecosystem agnostic, right? So, you you can look around and say any major blockchain eosystem. >> I find that hard to believe. >> No, we are. Seriously, >> I will not. All right. So, tell me some tell me some tether based companies that you've invested in, please. >> Tether based companies. Oh, that that one might be a tough one, but we have a lot of Salana based companies. So, contrary to popular belief. Um and the reason that we kind of set up that way is that you know again our investment you know agreement is to go very broad and broad right we want to back the best builders irrespective of the ecosystem we actually carved out a separate base ecosystem fund that's managed by the base team so that way they can optimize and focus on base builders um and then

we're going to go after like some of the the best talent that is out there irrespective of the exact and that's why we're here this week to kind of spend some more time within the Salana ecosystem Salana accelerate being tomorrow etc. >> Nice. Very cool. Yeah, I mean I'm curious what you're seeing on the valuation side. How has that changed this year with, you know, bit of a depressed market? Are we still doing seed rounds five and 50 or we down to like the $30 million valuation? We've done like two deals this year and I think they were both around 30 mil. >> Yeah, I think like it's probably like this year has been a bit odd in terms of it's eb and flowed on the valuations in my perspective. Right. So where you have seen you know some seed rounds that were probably down in like that kind of sub

30 on average we have seen like kind of like the 50 and it really just it's case depending depending on like the sector right because again if I look at just like stable coins and payments sometimes you're talking to very established companies that are ARR generating sometimes 5 $10 million rounds and those companies actually look like more growth equity type of plays. they are like some of the relatively agentic commerce AI businesses that are kind of starting to take some of that AI premium as well. So it really just varies but again you know we while we are valuation sensitive our main thing is just thinking about value capture and what do we have to believe to get a very strong outcome on that investment. Yeah, incredible.

>> John, what are the kind of key objectives for Coinbase Ventures when it comes into helping their portfolio companies? Obviously, uh people probably think, oh, like you're going to get listed on Coinbase. It's not that easy. What do you guys actually do to help your portfolio companies? >> Yes. So, that is the one area that we cannot help with help with. >> But, you know, most of our portfolio companies, they really see us as the API into Coinbase, right? So if they want connectivity into let's say our product teams, early access to products, if they wanted some like advisory support, we're always open to providing that. We have the largest portfolio in crypto, so 600 plus companies. So oftent times you see our portfolio companies selling or

collaborating with each other. Um, and then we're just well connected beyond just having like the Coinbase brand on the on the cut table. We're well connected uh within the industry to be able to kind of facilitate intros where needed. Well, Jonathan, go out there and get some deals, man. I I appreciate you spending some time with us, man. Um any are do you have a lot of meetings booked up this week? Are you Yeah. >> Yes, it is a backtoback week, right? So, I like I said, I will be at Salana Accelerate all day. So, for any of the builders out there, feel free to stop by, say hello, um we can connect and I'll be here um throughout the entire week.

>> Hell yeah, man. Thanks for the time. >> Thank you for having me, guys. Thank you. >> Thank you, sir. That is Jonathan from Coinbase Ventures, one of the largest, if not the largest by portfolio companies, venture firms in the space powered by Coinbase's balance sheet themselves. Great guest, fun guy. We're going to take a quick break, guys. We're going to throw you on to the panels. There is some awesome panels happening today with a lot of institutional allocators. We're going to get you guys there, get them set up. We'll be right back. And uh people do this because um you you want to receive this reward because bitcoins are valuable and ethereum are valuable. So the value of the crypto adds to the utility. The more valuable the crypto is more utility that it has.

So when you look at investing into crypto we've launched uh in the last 13 years I think over 200 projects 300 maybe. And I tell you that over 95% of them, they didn't understand this philosophy of why crypto, why do we need a crypto? Most projects don't need crypto. So, so when you when you invest into a token project, make sure that it has a utility that the more valuable the token is, the stronger the utility will be. In our case, for yellow, for example, it's the escrow mechanism. So, you need a an expensive token for people to to not want to lose that escrow. So that's that's the basics of of token investment and if you just follow this very simple thing you will in utility

tokens not rwas then you will you will make it and you will invest in the next ethereum or the next bitcoin >> but if tokens are just a form of equity and if you just look at it as that would you say that >> I mean every company needs their own equity they all need stock >> so if it if it enables an open market to be and a programmable market of uh and that is the utility in and of itself. >> Tokens are are the product that the company has. It would be the iPhones for Apple. It's not the equity of the shares of Apple, but it's very correlated to the profits. Uh so the more iPhones you sell, the more profits you make and the more your equity is valuable. So there

is a correlation but equity is much less valuable than the sum of the the the value of the equity of a company is always less than the sum of the sales of the company. So the tokens is the product not the equity. >> Brian take us home. >> Yeah. Yep. Can they hear you? Can you guys turn the mic? >> I know we're at time. Check. Check. All right. Here we go. I know we're at time so I'll keep it quick. Um the the reason why a token is that crypto has a superpower. price discovery being one of it and uh rate discovery being the other the other part and uh being able to create one of the best secondary markets in existence is another superpower of token. The butt here is that every

single governance token or every single token that has come to be has seen somebody come in from a centralized entity and change the organization structure. You can look at a you can look at kelp you can look at arbitrum. So when push comes to shove, you need to centralize and you have to like be able to fight that war and do the next right thing, but then it's not completely decentralized in the token. So tokens in and of themselves are are a superpower to do a certain number of things, but you will almost always be giving away some form of control and rights that you have to be aware of.

>> Thank you guys so much for your perspective. Please give a applause to our uh speakers. Thank you. Check and uh all of the people putting the

program together, we have accomplished the objective of being the largest side event uh beside uh uh consensus in this case in Miami. So, let's give everybody here and yourselves a round of applause to begin with. All right, for real, this this is not possible without all of you and all of you people on the screen. We're going to introduce uh the next keynote. This is Guy from Phoenix and he is going to talk about the privacy layer of tokenization. Come on up and tell them what it is. >> Let's give him a round of applause everybody. And if you're in the back of the room, please make your way to the front or outside. Thank you.

Amazing. Um hey everybody, glad to be here. I'm Guy. I'm the CEO of Phoenix and I'm going to talk about the privacy layer that unlocks the Ethereum liquidity for tokenized markets which is kind of a mouthful. I know it's a very long name. The short version of it is basically how can institutionals tap into the Ethereum liquidity without being compromised. So first thing why do I care about privacy? I've been working about privacy related technologies for over two decades starting with trusted execution environment moving to fullorphic encryption as well as blockchain privacy and about two and a half years ago started Phoenix and I'm here not because I think privacy is important from an

ideology standpoint yes I agree that it's important but really because it is a vital component for institutional when they're starting to move into the blockchain space so let's just take a moment to understand what's been going on in the last couple of years. We saw significant growth and the business demand for tokenization. But as the demand grows, so does the problem that blockchain brings is being unfolded. And that is that everything on blockchains today is visible by default. What it means is that basically when you're working on an Ethereum ecosystem, which is where the liquidity is, where you want your tokenized solutions to be at,

everything out there is public by by by default. And when you take something called like a block explorer, you can literally see the entire activity that took place. So the identity of who did the transaction, the counterparty, the amount, the position, everything is visible by default, which clearly is a problem for a business that wants to build a tokenized asset solution moving into the Ethereum ecosystem. So think about it from a business perspective. If you are now looking into building an RWA or stablecoin solution that is now running on permission permissionless blockchain when you're building the stable coin the commercial flows subscriptions on tokenized ROWAS

everything around ownership transfers balances it's all out there and visible. So what what is the default? What happens when the the when when entities are starting to look into where they want to build a tokenization solution, they would typically want to reach out to where the liquidity is, which is the Ethereum ecosystem. So, as they start looking and understanding that the fact that Ethereum brings you full transparency uh and and you're too exposed, they automatically default to the familiar environment of what they know, which is more of the permission blockchains. Um they give them control access. It's a familiar ecosystem. It's privacy by isolation. But what the permission

blockchain don't give them is the access to the Ethereum liquidity. And this is where the problem lies. So we'll talk about how we solve it in a minute. But first thing I just want to explain what privacy is because it's kind of a convoluted word. We've been talking about privacy for many many years. But like different flavors of it. So privacy think about it as an umbrella term that has two verticals. The first one is anonymity hiding who is transacting and the second part is confidentiality hiding the content of the transaction.

So anonymity in that regards is the ability to mask who is transaction who is who is transacting with one another. So you have your identity concealed and the counterparty concealed everything else is quite visible. So projects like tornado cache that that were out there for several years uh provided anonymity. It's definitely quite useful for users but from an institutional standpoint that need KYC and AML this is not the right solution. What institutionals are mostly looking is confidentiality.

So a solution that would allow them to hide the content of the transaction, the amount that's being transferred, balances that you want to keep encrypted position and strategy while being compliant with what the compliancy team want, which is KYC and AMO. And to be clear, confidentiality or anonymity shouldn't contradict with the compliance need. Selective disclosure enables you to get both the privacy that you need and meeting the need of the compliancy team by allowing certain conditions that you would be able to share the transaction data with your auditor, your compliancy

team, the regulator and third parties under certain conditions. So with that there has been several solutions out there trying to solve this conundrum of how do we bring privacy compliance uh into the ecosystem trusted execution environment. We're the first one trying to use hardwarebased to achieve uh privacy. They're very fast, but there is a dependency on the hardware. And in the last couple of months, there has been several numerous articles about the ability to break these trusted execution environment if you have access to them. So, they're quite useful, but not in a decentralized ecosystem. Zero knowledge that probably

most of you have heard of, you can think about them as a very useful cryptography for scaling. It enables you to prove that something was done without revealing the the source. and they're quite useful for anonymity and scaling, but they're not a computation technology. And then lastly, multi-party computation. The ability to split computation into multiple entities that are not colluding. This is very, very powerful. But the limitation of MPC is that it does not scale in a decentralized ecosystem. So now we are getting into the meat of it, which is fully homorphic encryption.

Um, I know it's a very long name. Fulium encryption is a very novel cryptography that's been out there for several years. It enables you to encrypt data, compute over that encrypted data and then decrypt the data in a very secure fashion. So the user has the data encrypted then all the activities that are happening over the encrypted data they cannot seen they cannot be seen by anybody outside of the users themselves. And of course the decryption part. FHE is very very powerful. And one unique value that FHE has which I think most of you are probably not thinking of today and probably should is the fact that it's quantum resistant. And this is like

the first time that I'm starting to put quantum up there uh uh in my slides because quantum was always considered as this like thing that it's in the sparse distant future. Maybe into five to 10 years is when we need to start worrying about quantum computer. But actually the quantum clock is ticking and about a month and a a month ago there was a research published that demonstrated there is significant improvements in the quantum cryptography which actually now enables entities in probably somewhere between two to three years to break ECC elliptic curve cryptography which is the core fundamental cryptography that many of us are using. So now people are starting to think, you know what, I

actually need to make sure that I'm not only quantum safe in 2 to 3 years, I actually need to make sure that I'm even quantum resistant now because quantum computers that are going to come there in like 3 years are actually going to be able to see all of the data historically. So put it up in your decision tree when you're starting to look about solutions for your uh tokenization platform. And then and this is one of my last slide. I just want to make sure that people understand integrating privacy is a lot easier to deploy than people think of. If you take the standard that's being used today in the Ethereum ecosystem ERC20, ERC20 has all the transfer balances amounts out there in

the public. It does not have an ability to do freezing and gating. But with less than 50 line of codes, you can now get into a different standard. We we use the FHRC20 standard that gives you the option to pick if you want the balances and assets to be either public or confidential if you want to have compliancy through selective disclosure and if you want to have freezing of the assets. So it's becoming extremely easy today to make sure that you don't need to actually work on the permission blockchain because you feel that that's the safe environment. You can actually now access the Ethereum liquidity through a privacy layer. Ethereum is the core underlying settlement layer that has all the DeFi

and all the liquidity out there. The FH privacy layer that we're building is on top of that and then institutional applications are going to be the ones that are going to utilize all of it. Um, so that's it and I hope it's quite understandable. If anybody has any questions, I'm going to be out there after the talk. Uh, feel free to come and talk to me. I'm

ready. We are crazy. Hello.

Hello everybody. Can you hear me? I think we got to turn me up a little bit. I can always do the cuff the mic thing. So, you know, we've heard a lot from a lot of different players in this space. Now, we're going to take a deep dive at some uh some institutional players. We're going to talk about what makes institutional capital move. I would say that if this was happening 5 years ago that uh JP Morgan uh Dennis and his team at JP Morgan probably would have taken a real close look at the agenda. Not to say that they haven't today, but the times have changed and they have came with us.

So, let's give a round of applause for the next panelist. We're going to get into it. Let's go. And if you can turn my mic up a little bit, that'd be great. There we go. We're trying to line up the the Hollywood squares with the live actors and uh and here we are. So uh again, my name is Chaman Mali. I'm with Gamma Prime. I I play the role of janitor. Uh sometimes I do more than just clean up and I have the privilege of speaking with these esteemed and

established guests. Thank you all for being here. Um take a moment please to introduce yourselves. Uh and let us know about what still needs to happen before tokenized assets or digital assets become a standard portfolio allocation rather than this like exploratory venue. Blue. >> There you go. You're good. >> All right. I'm Dennis Cressello. I'm the head of asset wealth management for KEXUS, which is JP Morgan's blockchain business units. Uh my background is I spent 10 years building portfolios of hedge funds, private credit funds, co-investments. And as part of that, I was doing due diligence on crypto funds.

Made the pivot over to Kexus to focus more on tokenization about four years ago. And to answer your question, give the quick version, I guess, uh, around what it's going to take for institutions. I think for tokenization specifically, you need better products. You need products that are actually better than what you could get available in a BAU or business as usual manner today. I think we're getting there. And I think some of those things will be around liquidity. It'll be around precision of being able to move these assets. And then also some use cases around collateral and composability. But you need better better products.

>> Better products. That's what it's going to take for the big boys and girls to uh to get in deep. >> Uh so hi everybody. My name is Sam Tincade. I represent State Street Investment Management. Uh State Street Investment Management is the fourth largest asset manager in the world. We are working on a lineup of products. My role specifically is to do the digital strategy uh which includes bringing crypto exposure to traditional investors as well as uh new tokenized products that have new features that are attractive uh in the D5 space. Hey everyone, my name is Katrina. I run Portal Ventures. We're a dedicated preede fund and the thesis goes the highest alpha in crypto still having a preede if you can be early and right. Um very easy to remember us. We only lead.

We only come in at the first institutional round and we don't back competitors. So once we're in, we're all in. That's our thesis. Now I'll be augmenting the panel with some uh venture perspectives. Hi everybody. My name is Renee Berman and I'm an adviser to a private equity venture capital fund called Motive Partners that only invests in fintech. Um, previously I was at DTCC in their digital asset group. And to answer your question, I think new products and products are important. Um, but I think distribution is really critical because if you don't have distribution, you don't have anything.

>> If you build it, they won't come. That's what I'm hearing. >> Beautiful. I forgot to answer the question. So let me >> Yeah. Yeah. Go for it Katrina. Would love to hear it. >> Yes. Um I would say from the venture side and what I'm seeing on the earliest stage, I think founders need to start thinking of themselves as a manager versus just entrepreneurs. Um over the past cycle, we've been just optimizing for the yield when people um approach onchain product. But then now you know when you talk to the institutional and this is this cycle is all about the integration between traditional finance and DeFi like risk is number one like regulation risk uh which a lot of you can vouch for. So that I think that that is the missing link right now.

>> We'll put it over to Richard. >> Well it's really pleasure to be here. My name is Richard Dolan. I'm I serve as a special adviser to Polymath. Uh I I oversee and run the Dolan uh family office. And when we were looking for a company in the world that can tokenize a billion dollars of assets that were cool, significant, and culturally significant, from sports investment to film to media, from our friends like Mike Tyson or Drake or LeBron James, uh we found Polymath and was so in love with their technology and all of its underpinnings, knowing that we operate in a very highly regulated space where compliance is not our our most favorite thing, but it's a mustave and a non-negotiable. uh we went all in on

Polymath. Um which is why they're likely being listed over the next 60 days uh in America and and we're staying behind them. So to answer your question and and just want to say thank you so much to this panel like I've never seen so many good-looking people all on one stage at the exact same time. Like isn't that true? I mean you can I got one applause. Absolutely. Um and smart. I I think as I said earlier on the the I think regulatory finality not interpretation is the time for blockchain. I think right now rather than looking at it as a nice to have it. >> All righty guys, welcome back to the Gamma Prime Tokenized Capital Summit.

We're here with no other than the CEO himself, Evan. Welcome to the show, man. I like your tie. >> Thank you. >> Very nice. >> People know me for it. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Yeah. Well, it's a it's a pleasure. Thank Yeah, absolutely. Thank Thanks uh thanks for having us out and thanks for spending some time with us. Um I think it'd be most helpful for anyone who's unfamiliar. You guys put together a great show, pulled a great crowd. For anyone who's who's not already familiar, you know, a little bit about yourself and about Gamma Prime. >> Sure. Sure. Uh, I'm Evan Sue. Um, I'm a longtime commodity trader. So, I've been doing like, you know, crude oil, gold, you know, futures and treasuries for like over 30 years. People actually don't believe it because they don't

think I look old enough, but I actually been doing it over 30 years. And what we learned with uh you know with Gamma Prime and all of our sort of startup colleagues was there's a whole block of these kinds of investments that are really hard to get access to you know so how do you find a good commodities trader a good forex trader oh hello please we got some food coming in an interview so thank you >> um and um >> you know hedge funds uh private equity these things that most people are sort of not really familiar but actually make great investments because they're different from the stock market. They're different from bonds.

Not that they're like somehow special. They just don't all crash together. And that gives you real diversification. And so what we built Gamma Prime for was essentially like look, let's make these sort of alternative investments more accessible to more people. So you still have to be accredited which is a requirement in the US you know you know to do any sort of private investment globally overseas they all have their own sort of accreditation requirement. So you still have to be credited but most people don't even know where to go to start to find these things and so we figured we'll put them all in one place.

>> Yeah. And so who who is the primary customer cuz like you said plenty of experience opening up uh access to a lot of these alternative investments. Who's the primary you know buyer and in demand of these things? So I would say we range anywhere from the the sort of basic accredited investor that's maybe putting in you know 10 20,000 $50,000 into investment all the way up to just short of the institutions. Okay. So we will sort of we'll sort of end right around the ultra high net worth large family office. We have several family offices. They're even in the billion dollar range which is quite large but it's not institutional. It's not a pension fund.

It's not like sovereign wealth or something like that. So, we sort of span that kind of bracket and those are often the people that have a hard time finding these things. Okay? If you're an institutional >> pension fund for Chicago, you know where to find this. They'll come find you, you know, but if you've got medium, you know, high net worth, there there's no nobody will come service that market because >> strangely it's too small. Like it's just not worth their time. And so are your clients active digital assets investors that are quite you know longer term in the space quite quite bullish or is it more of like an education to allocate to digital assets? What's kind of the spectrum of clientele as far as their exposure interest to this asset class?

>> So actually most of our investors are not investing in digital assets. Most of the stuff on the platform is traditional stuff. So but it's just exotic. So reinsurance is a great example. uh litigation finance, film finance, we have like strange things like that. But then there's a large crypto side too. So what we learned is that people want what they want. They come in, they have an idea of like what it is that they're after. We just help them fulfill that. So recently >> a thing that's been ex in hot demand is preIPO secondary. >> Yeah, definitely right. It's just we just go where people want. So our job isn't to sell them. Our job is to make it available, to vet it, to make sure it's legitimate and it's properly audited. Um, but what we've learned is

there's a strong demand for crypto among certain types of large family offices. Often time the boss is like, "Hey, go out and find me 15% exposure in our portfolio to crypto >> and they come to us and they're like, I don't want to just buy Bitcoin. Like that's just like super volatile. What else do you have?" or like we have tons of delta neutral things that are funding the infrastructure like staking and restaking liquidity provisioning you know um buying over the counter and for them this is often a surprise cuz they like they think oh all I can do is buy me coins like that's crazy like I don't want to do that but when they discover no you can fund the the backbone of of crypto and get paid for it um that's

often much more appealable >> and and so time and time again, every guest that we've had up here has been preaching tokenization. Um, this has been it really feels like the narrative that's taken hold of everyone. You know, as you're looking at more exotic alternative investments to to list on Game of Prime, how does a tokenization thesis play into it? You mentioned film industry, delta neutral, all these things. How how are you offering some of the more exotic tokenized products out there? Be it RWAs, be it airliners and onchain credit and all these different things. How much of the that opportunity space are you starting to explore and what are you hearing from the demand side about what they're most interested

in? >> You know, this is maybe a bit controversial, but we we take a very pragmatic view on tokenization, which is why there's not a reason to tokenize. We actually we don't we won't do it just for the sake of doing it. Right. Right. And so what we find is that let's say you're investing a large investment into a hedge fund. There's no need to tokenize any of the that part of the transaction. Now it's a lot clunkier if you do it through like kind of the oldfashioned way. But you can just do a lot of digitization without going all the way to tokenization. Now on the other hand you have certain applications um where being able to fractionalize would be amazing. So I'll give you an example. We have a fund of funds. We call it fund zero. It's an internal fund of funds.

It's the only thing that we do inhouse. And what we do is we essentially blend funds for people. And when you put all those into a bucket, the next thing people want is give me something where I don't have to put $100,000 in. Give me something where I could put in 500 bucks, you know, $2,000. And normally there's actually most people don't know this, but there's actually rules among hedge funds in Cayman Islands where there's actually a minimum investment of $100,000. And that makes it really difficult for a lot of these people to get into. That's a good place for tokenization. So what we end up having is you have two tiers. You end up having a secondary tier, which is a tokenized version of a block. And that tokenized version allows people to take much smaller chunks.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think the why question is something that, you know, we hear a lot about. All right, you have an asset, you tokenize it, then what, right? And just kind of like what are you doing there? You know what could be interesting for from the kind of fund perspective, I'm curious if you guys are already doing this is there was a lot of like centralized exchange and decentralized exchange arbitrage. There still is. That was a large generator of alpha for a while. I think now perhaps there's going to be a tokenized commodity equity on chain on a venue like Hyperlquid or or a different venue and then the assets price on Schwab on the NYSC on CME on other brokers.

>> Kind of talk to us about what you're seeing in that kind of basis trade or arbitrage opportunity. Is there real value right now in that? Is there output in that or is it still too small? chain. >> I I'll tell you because that's a very specific kind of trading style. I don't feel like I can really speak to it because I'm not in that particular space. I can tell you what I've heard, which is that the straight R play is actually pretty armed out. Like there's not a lot in there for that. But what you do get is you get people sort of arbitrageing I would say like the the like second order effects, right? So it might be like

arbitrageing the difference in the basis trade prices on different exchanges, right? Or selling one and buying the other. But it's something that the straight A R play is, as far as I understand, is is is no longer really viable. Um, but uh again, because that's not my particular area of expertise, uh you could end up with some guest that comes and is just like, oh no, he's totally wrong. Like that's live and well. you just know need to know how to do it and it's in this corner, you know, which is always the way trading works, you know, it's like you can't be a master of the entire space, >> you know. We we love the controversial opinions you shared a couple already here today. What what are some bold predictions you have for the second half of this year?

>> Well, uh I'll be straight up. I I went on uh well, I'll give you two of them actually. So one of them is um Bitcoin is uh has been behaving a lot like uh you know in the same way as gold and two-year treasury notes when every time there's a war scare right so every time crude oil goes up all those three assets dive down >> but if you look at the overall trend you're seeing a divergence you're seeing two-year notes having a lower low like crude oils essentially made like a higher two higher equal highs right so if you look at the brand like crude oil prices like hit 115 twice in about the last month. You just look at what happened with two-year notes, it hit a

lower lower. So that's like people are scared and getting more scared. If you look at gold, it hit a higher low. So it looks like it's like bombing. You look at Bitcoin, it's pretty much breaking out to like new highs. It's breaking over that. If you're a technical trader, you know, the resistance area at 80,000, you're looking at underlying accumulation. I'm actually long it for the first time in a year and a half and um I'm long it with some size. The other thing that I think people are completely overplaying right now is the inflation scare. I think people are talking about um you know oh this war is like going to you know drive all this inflation into the system and you know this is my personal model. This is not the truth is that

inflation drives into markets when there's strong demand. When people have jobs, they've got money, and then they like push prices up. When they don't have money, what happens is it just drives into like pushing the economy down. In other words, if you don't have money, what are you going to do? You're going to stop going on vacation, right? You're going to stop buying the extra television. It's not going to like you're not going to let the prices pass through. You're just going to stop spending. And I think what's going to happen right now, if you look at the way people are reacting, they they're all focused on inflation. I think if you look six months out, you're going to see that whipssaw back the other way. and it turned into pretty intense recession.

And I think the these two-year notes, you know, are going to be way up, meaning the yield's down. I think gold's going to be way up. And I think Bitcoin's going to be up, too. >> But again, that's not a popular view right now. >> Yeah, we had Kathy Wood on, and she was saying that there's actually like this good deflation happening from AI, from productivity, and just generally in the way that inflation has came way down. And she was kind of formulating that this good deflation is very bullish for markets. Liquidity is returning. If you look at um the Fed balance sheet is QT has ended. It's bottomed out and now kind of some stealth QE has begun.

>> Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, I would say the stealth QE is essentially um the turning of the business cycle. You know, I think you know interest rates are on a on a cut and I think if you look historically an oil price shock, people don't remember this, but in 2008 there was an oil price shock just before the like crash as well. All it does is just adds fuel to the like economic cycle. You're you're you're you're adding a tax, the energy tax when people can least afford it. And I think >> shouldn't that be the end of the business cycle? >> Yes, that's what I mean. I think we're headed towards the end of the business cycle and we're headed down which is going to mean not inflation.

>> It's going to mean massive deflation and not I don't think deflation of the type Kathy Wood's talking about which is kind of the good type. I'm looking at business cycle type deflation like job losses. Last year it looked like they had decent job gains all year. And then the VLS revised their job numbers down and it turns out we had almost no job gain the entire year. Remember you need a 100,000 per month just to break even against like the population. So we're already in a bit of a jobs decline. We're in what they call the flat part of the beverage curve. And I think that just it just hasn't hit yet. I don't think people realize what's going on there.

>> So you're bullish Bitcoin more in the interim then? >> Yeah, I actually am long. And like I said, it's a long first time been long in about a year and a half. >> Yeah. >> So, >> very cool. >> Yeah. >> Well, Evan, we know you got a panel to go to. Uh, thank you for spending some time with us. Really, really appreciate it. And, uh, thanks for having us out. >> Thanks for coming out. >> This place is still absolutely slammed. It's 4:00. I mean, people are still here. >> We actually are consistently the biggest side events at Token 249, at Consensus, and Abu Dhabi Finance Week and um, >> and it's all free. So, >> did it again here in Miami. Thanks, Evan. Good to meet you, man. Good man.

Appreciate you guys. We'll see you next time. Thanks, >> guys. You heard it here. >> Oil is the end of the business cycle. Pack your bags and cash and and get your bunker ready. Ladies and gentlemen, Evan is going to ARB your ARB. I'll tell you that man. >> You're going to arb your AR. >> We'll see. I like going on record like this because, like I said, everyone talks about it after the fact, but this is like making a call when it's not popular. And if it works out in 6 months, >> it is. >> Well, then I can be like, "Hey, I was on record for you." >> We'll stand by it. Guys, we're going to pass it back to the main panel stage. The the end of a panel is wrapping up with some heavy hitters and then we are going to get them on the show. We'll be

right back, guys. >> Quite there yet. And I think there is a lot of learning and education that needs to happen for these institutions specifically on wallet, which I thought was interesting that that you brought up because they don't necessarily want to hire another provider. They don't want to, you know, pay someone else to hold the wallet on their behalf. They certainly don't want to self-custody these assets because that's incredibly risky for them. And so I think more likely over time is you're going to see this third phase of wallets where they're more integrated into traditional infrastructure. So it sits side by side with a regular way custody account or brokerage account.

>> I I got a confession to make. It took me two years to accept the fact that a wallet can be outside of my pocket in order for me to trust it. And I lost out on some opportunities between 2016 and 2018. But uh true story, you know, I I was an old dog looking at it. You wanted to say something? >> Yeah. No, I was just going to give you a very specific example to sort of illuminate why institutions might be slightly hesitant in this space. So, for example, if you're using stable coins, and so you have USDC on Salana, you have USDC on Ethereum, you have USDC on uh Avalanche, those are all three, even though they're the same quote unquote asset, they are different in your wallet and they sit on different chains. And now you have to manage liquidity on three different chains. You need an

interoperability provider to be able to send those assets between those chains. So it's not like where you had before one bank account that had x amount of dollars. Now you have three accounts on three different chains and you have to manage that liquidity across each of those three chains. So from an institutional perspective, it actually makes it more complicated without buying or you know pending on additional tools to help you facilitate that interchain uh complexity. >> You make a good point. Yeah, I want to hear hear what you have to say and get get back into that conversation on institutional adoption. So please continue.

>> Yeah. So the other I was just going to make a point that if in that scenario not every blockchain is the same also. So if you're an institutional investor there are new risks that you need to take into consideration because the financial risks might be the same but the operational risks are very different. Now you have to think about governance risks. You have to think about smart contract risk. You have to think about interoperability risks. There's a whole host of new risks that you need to take into consideration. And I actually worked when I was at DTCC, we wrote a white paper specifically around the risks of issuing tokenized securities. And then most recently, I've been working with an organization called GBBC, which is the Global Blockchain Business Council. It's great. Um, and I've been working with them and Oliver

Wyman very specifically to work on um to identify what are the very specific risks if you're issuing on an L1 or an L2. Like what do you need to think about? what are the operational risks that are new and novel for your consideration because I do think investors need to take that into consideration. Something else I'll add from a venture landscape is um when you're thinking through the idea like and especially if the end goal is to integrate with this institutional there's always the question of buy or build and I spent some time talking I can't really name which one but kind of collecting requirements almost in a way from some of these largest players and there are

two distinct areas and maybe some of you will resonate that like they will likely buy or work with versus build themselves because when they build they either cannibalize you or you know do aqua hire. Um one is the last mile integration. For example, when it comes to payment um the last mile where how you onboard different vendors locally in emerging regions that is one area like these large players will not likely touch. Um the other area is exactly what um you described kind of this connective tissue between DeFi and CFI. Even for example like if I'm um if I'm I manage you know investment management and then I'm trying to deploy into a D5 protocol like what do I choose between private

credit a and the Athena and all of these and how do I rebalance like actually it's it's it's very complex to do that and if you can abstract that away to give a almost like a UX layer for institutional I think that's quite interesting and what we are seeing um so I just want to augment that with the early stage lens >> yeah no absolutely that's very good color and and and perspective to be shared uh in this discussion. And I, you know, at institutional size, what are the biggest risk filters that determine whether a tokenized opportunity is actually investable? Is this liquidity?

Is it governance, compliance, operations concentration something else? Um, let's start with Richard if you have some thoughts on that. >> I think it's none of the above. I think those are all the obvious things that we have to look at, check out, and ensure we're in alignment to. We all are operating according to our errors and omissions insurance. We we cannot step outside the confines of what compliance will allow us to be regulated within. But I think what's more important is is not so much the which area is most important or the filter in which we must look through is the filters in which we are looking through to recognize the opportunity at hand. I'm going to say this in 90 seconds cuz I want to make sure I'm courteous to my panel and my friends.

>> It's a it's a soft stop. Keep going. >> But check this out. We we folks, you guys remember the game musical chairs. When the music is playing and it stops, those who get a seat play on. Those who are left standing are out. Now imagine this. We have over over here it comes over five 50 million people circling chairs right now metaphorically speaking because we have a baby boomer turning 75 every 7 seconds in North America. There's one right there calling and telling me I'm right now. With that being said, there's only 450,000 shares. So 50 million circling 450,000 shares.

What does that mean? While we have financial advice givers, financial planners, investment advisers, and portfolio managers retiring equally at the same rate boomers are, you've got billions coming, you've got millions in need and no one to help. So, I believe the filter is the opportunity filter and infrastructure is the only investment that both Wall Street and Main Street should come together and build because it's not about that world and our world. It's about this is our world and for us to become the custodians and futurize our platforms in architecture, the plumbing and the electrical as one from JPM to State Street to money managers and great special adviserss all of us must really sing from the same song sheet. Do I think my friend the filters

opportunity >> Dennis? >> Sure. >> Yeah. >> Uh yeah. No, I think the conversation that we have around risk maybe one nuance answer to to think about is we constantly get the question of like what is the benefit of being early? You know, like we could see this play out. We could wait for a bit. we can let others go ahead and tokenize these funds and buy these tokenized assets because as mentioned, you know, we're we're not quite there yet as far as delivering a better product in a lot of respects versus what you can get regular way. And so what we have to describe and what we have to talk about a lot is that the opportunity cost of sitting still right now is great and you

need to get going on these kinds of projects because they do take a while. It is a journey to be able to bring a fund on chain. And it is even longer journey to be able to distribute that fund very scalably to an investor base whether that's institutional investors or high net worth investors. And so the opportunity cost of sitting still is is the risk right now. >> But you got that edge. I mean JP Morgan make no mistake like you have distribution channels that are like I got less neurons connected in my brain than you have distribution channels. >> And it's helpful. I mean you know we're blessed with having a lot of different businesses that we could use and develop use cases with. But with that comes size and it takes time to get things done and we have a lot of different people we

need to convince that these are good ideas. >> Well, my goal is to get enough of a critical mass of uh of of of buyers for JP Morgan to to uh to just buy us instead of compete one day. So, make no mistake, you heard it here. >> Yeah. So, I think there's there's many many many different risk uh lenses that we look at when we look at investments. I would say maybe some of the top ones is the first uh is regulatory. So I think the clarity act will help bring additional guidance to um sort of the regulator regulatory perimeter around securities with the SEC and then commodities and other things like that with the CFTC if we get one. Um and then you know I would really look at the the who is tokenizing the asset. You have third party tokenizers that are not

related to the issuer that are creating tokenized versions of assets. And so I won't name any names, but there's a lot of experimentation going on outside of the United States that's for a specific reason uh under certain SEC exemptions. And then you've got other tokenized assets on other platforms that can potentially offer you some utility, but you introduce additional counterparty risk. Um and then there's sort of issuer-led uh tokenized assets out there. There's only a few that have really been successful so far. And there you're not taking you're taking less counterparty risk. Um but you're also sort of giving up some of the utility that you might get because those are temp those are tend to be uh whitelisted or allow listed and so you actually introduce uh somewhat of a friction when you purchase these types of tokenized

assets because uh you're not able to sort of pledge them into a protocol like you may want to. um getting redeeming out of those assets might be slightly more challenging take potentially longer than uh you know buying a traditional share on a on a broker uh with your broker and so I think there's trade-offs um we are definitely seeing uh more interest in tokenized assets on chain um but then you know even to Rene's point you know each blockchain itself has additional risks that that get carried forward so I think you have to look at sort of multiple levels when you're looking at an investment um and and definitely the the tokenizing agent and the issuer do things that you really should be paying attention to before you invest large scales um and and and have those tokenized assets uh reach any type

of scale. >> I'm hearing trust. There's a lot of trust underneath that >> trust. Absolutely. And then I think for large players like say street and and and um and others on the stage um you know that trust takes years to build and seconds to be broken. And so any kind of hack or or or uh something like that is something that we are very very conscious of. So reputational risk and establishing that trust with investors is is of the utmost important. The utility comes second. Um and then you know eventually cost will will drive a lot of our efforts as well. >> The question is what what's investable of course what's investable for me is very different from what's investable for the rest of panelists. from the venture arm. I I I think about this quite a bit like what's the common

denominator of some of the most successful companies uh including you know um within my portfolio and across the board. I think it's obsession right especially at early stage it takes a long time for my perflow company to get to work with one of these guys and obsession is how they generate um unfair advantage through you know depth through time and the other ones obsession is how I know they wouldn't give up even tomorrow no one wants to back them because like I've seen it over and over again if you just stick it out and keep bang your door uh bang your head against the door you will work but you just have to have like the support to hold it together and that is the most important and the preede. Um so yeah that's obsession is what's most investable for

me. >> No I love that. Thank you. It's inspiring for me. Over under around or through. Pick one and keep trying right. Yeah that resilience. Love that. >> I know we're running out of time but just as I mentioned earlier you know risk is a really key thing um for institutions. the risks that you mentioned, they're all important. It's not one or the other. I think you have to look at them all in in aggregate because you need liquidity risk. I mean, there's liquidity risk, there's, you know, um regulatory risk and but there there's a bit of a hierarchy, but even if like because you do need to start with regulatory risk because it needs to be, you know, you need to ensure that

you're um compatible with >> not in prison. >> Yeah. What? But but you even as you go down the path you go down the path all of the risks I think you need to take into consideration. I don't think it's one versus another. >> Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more and uh you know there's there's uh there's so much to consider. It's kind of the question is alluding to what how that hierarchy looks as you see it. We've gotten uh some pretty interesting answers. I want to wrap this panel up and I want to ask a few of the panelists here this question. over the next few years, which areas of tokenization do you think will attract institutional capital? And if anybody says what's happening right now, I mean, please try to look a little bit further beyond in years, like where is it that people are

not seeing, right? Where is the puck going as a Canadian would would put it, right? Cuz that's where the best player in the world was. He wasn't where the puck was. He was where it was going to be. So, where is the puck going to be as it relates to to tokenization uh that you think will attract institutional capital? Going to give you a couple of uh uh categories and you can go completely out of this if you like. We're looking at funds, treasuries, credit stablecoin deposits infrastructure. >> I'm going to give you one different. I believe that beyond the uh tokenized treasuries, private credit and structured credit, uh private equity, venture capital, beyond all those things, and I don't want to compete with my panel because they're incredibly brilliant. Um I think it's

infrastructure. I think infrastructure will be the future investment for institutional money to be moving into. I say that as a sitting institution uh who believes in an institution like Polymath is that I need that utility to work impeccably well with my compliance, my regulation, my investment mandates and all of the of the things that are orbiting our dollars, our capital, and our assets. So, infrastructure would be my statement. >> All right, let's go to Dennis. Where do you think uh will attract institutional capital first in the next few years? >> Yeah, I'm going to go with a barbell answer on the one end. very boring deposit tokens.

>> Okay. >> And then the other end of the spectrum, tokenized private equity is going to come back and and come back in a big way. And then lastly, for a bonus, uh tokenized identity, I think is going to be really important five years out as far as enabling friction-free investing and composability on uh all the cool stuff that's being built. >> We're going to get along just fine, you and I. Who's next? >> Hey, hey, by the way, isn't it funny that the biggest guy on stage is the one who used the barbell analogy? I find that interesting. >> I don't know. You're pretty big, bro. Um I think >> yeah you can keep it on like no trouble.

>> I think one of the biggest opportunities that we're going to see is around collateral and collateral mobility and that's going to bring institutions to the space. So not necessarily from an investment standpoint but collateral is going to drive institutions into the market because the ability to move your collateral instantaneously globally 247 is a phenomenal use case for blockchain technology. It's something you cannot do on today's rails. Similar to the DLR example I used earlier and the savings that it will generate for institutions is significant. I've heard upwards of 300 million, you know, annual savings just in interest. Um because it'll allow trap capital to be released that's being held globally by institutions. And I

think that's probably one of the biggest use cases that will bring the market. They'll bring people to the market and will force them to figure out like how do they actually support digital assets and engage in them. >> Yeah. Just as like a ret like a QP. I I I would love to see a world where I can take that piece of paper and my my private investment and collateralize it. just can't do that right now. So >> I will go beyond financialization. Financialization is one expression of what blockchain is good for. But another expression is actually this incentive. Um so blockchain as crypto rather as a incentive for productive action is actually one powerful mechanism of blockchain that has not been fully

realized. Okay. And for example, at the frontier tech and how do you use crypto as a incentive to get people to do the stuff they wouldn't otherwise do to bootstrap a new type of technology. And I'll give a quick example. We invested in you know quantum crypto two years ago where you know quantum computer is going to be one of the most transformed technology after AI. However, it has a go to market problem. Like if I cannot cryptographically tell you, hey, G um QPU is actually superior to GPU, why would you spend 15 million bucks to buy this computer I don't even know if I'm going to use. So this is where let's call it deepen 2.0 know like this thesis to fractionalize and create the first world shared um quantum computer using

cryptographic and you basically you have a I don't want to get too technical but basically every provider will join as validator to provide a compute and you have go to market layer through crypto incentives right so this is kind of just a sneak peek into what we're looking into um sitting up pretty um early >> uh so I I I think I mostly agree with Dennis um and and with Renee around maybe you know the the treasury exposure is really going to is really what's happening right now and I think that's going to continue to grow over the next year and then in the next 5 years once we have you know tokenized equities and other things like that I think something that uh will come up uh in the next 5 years is really like direct indexing tokens uh or you can almost think of

them sort of as vaults and I think the sort of the concept that you can highly customize for an individual investor the types of assets they want and then sort of automate the actual purchasing and fund construction I think that's a really interesting area to watch and I think that's again sort of driving additional utility um to be able to customize for each individual investor. I I think that's going to be a big theme over the next 5 years. >> All right. Well, hey, thank you everybody uh for this interesting conversation. I look forward to carrying it on longer with you guys either in the back room or over a coffee through the week. Uh everybody, thank you for uh taking part in this conversation. Let's give the panelists a round of applause.

A lot of strong. around. going to be around.

Let you feel Check. >> Hello everybody. I'm Evan Sue. I am uh one of the co-founders here at Gamma Prime. We are your hosts for today.

Welcome. This is the biggest event side event of all of Consensus and we've also been the biggest one for Token 249 and Abu Dhabi Finance Week. Um, thank you for coming out. We love uh meeting like the community and having you guys come out. Uh, I want to tell you a little bit about what Gamma Prime is because a lot of people are like, "Okay, I did this Gamma Prime thing." Like, I don't really know what they >> All righty, guys. Welcome back to the Tokenized Capital Summit. We are here with Alpha Growth founder Brian. Brian, welcome to the show, man.

>> Andy, >> thanks for coming, man. >> Yeah, man. Good to have you. Uh, how's the event training there? >> Oh, this is a wonderful event. We were at the Singapore event and the Hong Kong event, and it's one of the best events of consensus. >> Yeah, >> man. There's this ongoing DeFi layer zero kelp a drama going on right now, man. I don't know if you saw any of the stuff from today. A is uh doing a lawsuit against the lawyer group that is trying to effectively confiscate the 30k frozen ETH on arbitrum to repay previous DPRK victims. Layers founder Brian Palagino came out with his statement today effectively saying I had no idea that Kelta was running a one of one and

had billions of TVL. How would they who would ever do this? Kelp saying that that was layer zero's default configuration and of course that's that's what they were doing. >> Yeah. So here's where we're at. What's your read on this, man? Where are we at here? Um, give us your honest take. >> Uh, honest opinion, it's a multiple failure from a multiple entities. It's a problem for layer zero because now they have a brand issue. Like how can if they're if I'm there and I'm trusting layer zero to be my canonical bridge. If they're just saying, "Oh, it's not my fault." Then how can I trust them ever again with any other token in the future? So that's a problem. The other problem is Kelp itself. Why did they only have one of one validators? like ostensibly if you like look at the evidence it seems to me that DPRK hacked

the two validators of layer zero uploaded a a binary and so that's a legitimate hack. So that's like layer zero's like core thing is like if that's the if that's the issue that's a hack it's their fault. Um, I think when you have starts to get into these weird lawsuits, I may know a little bit too much information to to talk about, but there's the public lawsuits and then there's the private lawsuits against individuals at A Labs as well going on right now. So there's, >> right, so they're getting sued on all sides. So as soon as you step away and you try to start to centralize away from the DAO, now you open yourself up to like regulatory risk from everywhere and every person all over the world. So, you

know, if you look at like ACI and Zeller like kind of stepping away, >> like that was their legal cover. >> Now it's one person or a couple people that hold all the >> liability. Was it good timing? >> Well, was it just good timing for Zeer to step away before this all unfolded? You know, he he basically pointed out a v4 and all the incentives around that and saying, "Hey, A is not positioned for the future. you know, they're going to give a bunch of money to A Labs and so we're just going to step away from this and a lot of the other risk curators and contributors to a DAB did so at the same time. That was what 2 weeks before this hack.

>> Is that just good timing or what going on there? >> Look, I I think maybe but like last month was the largest hacked vector ever in crypto. Like the most amount of hacks, the most amount of money. I don't think that's going away. Like I think we're going to see this for like the next 6 months. Like Mythos or whatever and this like AI agents, it's getting easier and easier to hack these contracts and like dude there might be people around here right now working for a nation state government. >> There's a nation state attacking our industry.

>> Yeah. Yeah. And you're right, there's a lot of these older smart contracts that haven't really been maintained properly. And I think there is some sort of like scanning being done across the entire onchain landscape with some very advanced LLM technology that is basically like looking for easy vectors, right? Like there's probably a spectrum of difficulty in terms of like how how much effort, how much capital is going to be required to do this. And this definitely, you know, there's that scanning that's happening. That's why you're seeing these little small like little $1 million, $3 million from like old protocols and it's just kind of like well they haven't really been >> pennies. Yeah. I mean like if you look if you look at these old contracts uh there are businesses in crypto uh where we've like kind of turned down maybe

they're making like 200k a year in revenue. We're just like it's too small to like take on that liability of securing that running growth running marketing for a particular protocol. like the cost of some of these like Dows. Compound Dow was paying $4 million a year to for risk and security. Yeah. A was paying closer to $8 million. >> If they can't keep their stuff secure and on point, >> honestly, who can't? >> Yeah. You know, it's crazy that Chaos Labs also announced their departure prior to the exploit as well. They were kind of like the main risk curator and they were doing things with a there.

Yeah. Yeah. And then two weeks later after your risk curators leave is when that's the most riskiest time for the protocol. >> No, but it was that was because they they didn't want to secure before this was V3. >> Exactly. It was very similar to why ACI left from and Zeller left. >> Yeah. >> Zeller is a force of nature and people were loyal to him. It's really that simple. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Tell us a bit about Alpha Growth. What are you guys doing in the market today? I know we're kind of short on time, but what is your kind of uh holistic view on marketing, on protocols, on financial products on chain? Where do you guys kind of fit in?

>> Cool. So, uh we recently, this will come up a big announcement coming up soon. Uh Oiler DAO handed us over their DAO markets to start running for the Oiler uh as the main risk curator. Uh so, we're working a lot of with Oiler. We work with like a lot of different chains on growing their TVL, growing their ecosystems and then we're launching our own set of uh structured products for a couple private LPs. >> Uh in terms of like the future, I I think there's Agentic Finance requires blockchain. So, a lot of these agents like you're not going to be able to spin up like an LLC for every agent. You're not going to be able to spin up another company. It's going to the organization is going to live on chain and we may see like the the rebirth of Dows again in

the form of investing in an agentic company. So kind of excited for that. Uh and I think it might bring back DeFi as well. >> Yeah. And and so you're saying agents might be the members of these Dows and they'll be governing themselves in the structure. >> The Dow runs the agent. >> The Dow runs agent. >> Some of these agent like think about the liability of running an agent that may go may or may not go rogue. >> Like are you as a company going to take that on that liability? like a self-driving car. If it gets into an accident, who's ultimately responsible? As these agents are online communicating in all these different we're going to see these single person or agent like single agent companies that will be like a business. How does it interact with the world? How does it get funding? How

does it get its compute? And then a DAO model seems like a an interesting model. >> Yeah. Very cool. And so um how do these structured products work? um you know what you mentioned that for a handful of LPS >> what are what is the what is the contents of the structured product >> all right so I can dox our strategy it's pretty simplistic the main strategy we have right now is what's making the most revenue in crypto right now >> you guys know hyperl exactly the funding rates are crazy so if you just take a look at the lending rates it's about 2.5% to borrow ETH on a right now to lend out on hyperlquid it's 12% >> so That diff is there all day long.

There's about 17 different per venues that we interact with, but mostly hyperlquid because that's the most volume. That's the highest funding rates. Uh and so if you just manage the money market leverage between the perpetual and the money market, that's effectively a lot of our structure products. >> Really simple. Yeah, absolutely. So it's just active management. >> I hope you don't have any E stuck in it right now. >> No. >> Yeah. Thank god. >> There we go. Um Brian, what's your take on the state of DeFi post what all that's happened? Where do we kind of go from here? Hearing rumblings about institutional allocators, you know, being worried about this, not wanting to allocate but >> are they slowing down?

>> I've spoken to some and like some of them haven't even heard about what's happened. You know, they're not even like >> Well, I think so. We were running um growth and marketing for Compound and all the BDS for for about 18 months and we talked to a bunch of institutions and there was three things that needed to be in crypto for them to to like come into play and they're still not all there. Number one was fixed rates, one number two was smart contract insurance. Um and number three uh was just the size. I mean DeFi is really small. We're like down to like 80 billion. Like they these guys play in like5 billion chunks, 10 billion dollar chunks at a time. If we if any money market got consumed that much capital, it would crush the yields.

>> So the sizing um the smart contract risk insurance and so the security and insurance I think is where we're still struggling to see that. So I still think we're going to see a lot of blood being spilled over the next 6 months with AI and North Korea uh until we just like harden the entire industry. >> Okay. And you think we're ultimately going to we're going to come out stronger as a result of this? Yeah, of course. I mean, like the the promise of being able to do financing. The superpower of blockchain is like price discovery, store value. Everybody kind of knows that. But the the two things that we're looking at is rate discovery.

So, what is the global interest rate discovery to buy a home per per entity per country and what is the interest rate of like the interest rates of gold in China are different than the interest rates in gold in America. How come? Why? So, we're going to see global rate discovery on chain with lending. That's not going to go away. Uh and it's the the other superpower is the largest secondary market in the world. If you have a any asset, the secondary market to to sell and buy any tokenized stock, tokenized asset, tokenized equity, it's going to be on chain. >> Brian, thanks for spending some time with us, man. Hope you have a great rest of your week. Hope you guys can do a good job of curating risk at Oiler. I know that they're kind of looking to capitalize on this in their own way, if

you will. Spark has. So, thanks for being here, man. >> Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Thanks, Brian. Thanks, bro. Next time. Thanks, Brian. >> Man, that uh the the hack that just continues to shake the DeFi world, right? >> I mean, >> I mean, it just continues. >> It felt like we were nearing completion and now we're just in this uh now we're in a legal battle. >> It was a bit naive to think that there wasn't a legal battle. >> Legal battle, man. So, guys, we're going to throw you on to the panels and we're going to get our next guest in. >> Actually, I think we've got our next guest. >> Awesome. >> Ready to go.

>> What's going on, man? >> Hey, >> how are you? Good. >> Welcome to the show, man. >> Nice. >> Andy, nice to meet you. >> Robbie, what's your name, man? >> Sam. >> Sam. Pleasure, man. >> From State Street. >> From State Street Investment Management. >> Very very cool. Uh, and so tokenization is happening. Sam, I know you guys just had a good panel. Catch us off. What do we What did we miss on that panel? Um, what were some of the spicy takes? >> Uh, spicy takes. Well, I I think I think I think the message that came from the panel is that institutions are really uh putting their best foot forward now and really getting involved. And I think that'll be a theme that goes throughout the rest of this week, specifically, you know, we're here at uh the the first day

before consensus. Um so, I think the institutions are here. Uh it's going to start slower probably than most uh people want it to happen, but we're definitely here and and every bank and every asset manager across the world is looking at tokenization. Yeah, >> you you know, we had a a large um family office on the show earlier today and and he was talking about how the stable coin catalyst really sparked tokenization as a whole. >> That happened very quickly um once it started to get going. Now that's that's really burgeoning. But he mentioned how as we go further down the risk curve in terms of bringing a lot of these things on chain through tokenization, each step down the risk curve might take longer as a result to bring in. And so do you do

you think this as well or generally do you think that there's pockets where we can move a bit faster? >> Yeah. So I think I think we look at the tokenization journey I think um stable coins is absolutely the first place to start because if you look at what do stable coins offer they offer you sort of additional access window. So today we might be limited by fed wire access to certain times during uh during the the workday. Um and stable coins offer that sort of 247 access that you that you can have. Um, and by the way, so do tokenized deposits and uh deposit tokens. Once those, you know, get to some sort of scale. Um, so I think that the the 24 access piece is really interesting. Then once you have stable coins and you have that ability to get in and out of different funds, I think

we'll see tokenized funds become more prevalent. And that's because now we have the onchain cash and then we can invest in other things. When it comes to tokenized funds, I think the main driver is going to be utility or at least for institutional um investment, it's going to be utility. And why is that? because you can already buy uh registered funds in a in a pretty seamless way. You know, you have access to a brokerage account. You can basically buy them, you know, um Monday through Friday. Um adding stable coins allows you to now purchase in and out of those other than the Monday through Friday. Um so that's maybe one piece of the utility. And then the second utility is once you actually hold, let's say, a share of a tokenized fund. Um today that that fund just sits in your brokerage account, you can't

really do much with it. right now if you have a tokenized version potentially you can now pledge it into a lending protocol or you can use it as collateral for another type of financing product. So I think the the products that are really going to take off in tokenization are going to be the ones that actually bring you additional utility for your assets uh rather than just having it tokenized for the sake of being tokenized. >> Totally agree just like the do more with your stocks kind of idea right like whether it's lending or yield or 24/7 trading etc. You know, one of the things I think the tokenization complex is very focused on is bringing the world's ability to invest in US assets globally 24/7, sometimes with or without KYC with or without a brokerage in a self-custom

fashion. What I don't think a lot of the world's or or a lot of the kind of tokenization focus is is on bringing and opening up non US assets to US investors. So giving us investors access to Korean IPOs, preIPO Chinese stocks, emerging market funds, etc. How do you think about the dynamic between emerging markets and the US markets as it pertains to tokenization? Are you solely seeing kind of like let's tokenized US assets or are you seeing other kind of types as well?

>> Yeah, I think all of the excitement and and and and the regul and the evolving regulation really starts here in the United States. So there's a reason, you know, that some of the largest stable coin issuers are in the United States. Uh we had the the Genius Act that was passed um uh at the end in the end of summer last year that really starts sort of a flywheel effect. Now you've got US dollar denominated assets on chain uh in a reliable, safe way, particularly if you're going with a regulated stable coin. Um and then I think they're going to really go into uh US tokenized assets. That's not to say that there isn't innovation happening everywhere else in the world, but there's this sort of momentum um in the United States where you've got a core set of the the uh key companies that are doing tech uh

tokenization. You've got the onchain cash here in the United States. So, I think the US is really going to be one of the areas where you're going to see a lot more uh investor interest both in terms of tokenizing US assets and making those available outside of the US as well as US investors investing in US assets. uh I think there's a lot of potential for um uh you know assets outside of the US to come into the United States but I think that as a sort of a secondary wave not necessarily the first wave and I would mention that u I believe that we're going to see a market but the clarity act in the next you know hopefully 30 days or so right um and I think that's going to be another additional flywheel effect where we're going to have the SEC both regulate um

more clearly around tokenized securities as well as the CFTC regulate everything other and uh securities. And I think that additional regulatory clarity is going to drive additional investor interest because at the moment you still have um some regulatory risk around some of these assets. You don't necessarily know what you're getting. And then the third thing that I think would really drive some of this more investment is real clarity um and transparency around what you're getting when you buy a tokenized asset. So, for example, if you buy a tokenized US stock outside of the US at the moment, are you really getting that tokenized share or are you getting more of a derivative product? And are you sophisticated enough? Make sure you do your own homework, understand how that asset is really constructed and what and what you're getting when you

buy it. >> Yeah. When it comes to Yeah. Well, I I'm just curious, you know, a as you're thinking through, you know, how you react to tokenization from the State Street perspective, you know, given that you guys, I I believe reported, you know, $5 trillion of assets under management end of 2025, you know, we kind of understand the user journey as it pertains to do more with your stocks from the shareholder perspective, but when it comes to the business case for a large institutional player such as State Street to come into this industry, you know, you I I have here you guys launched your digital asset platform.

You're helping teams with tokenization. How do you see this as a business opportunity to come in and start to insert State Street as a name in this space? What are some of the services that you can provide that ultimately you know and then what are the benefits to you getting in? What are the benefits to your business as a result? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, we see tokenization or distributed ledger technology, blockchain as a new technology that we think can enhance many of aspects of our business. So I think you mentioned um uh last week we announced that uh or actually at the beginning um uh in January we announced that the digital asset platform so that's on the state street custody side is live uh and that is one of our core services. So state street is uh one of the largest custodial players in the

world and so of course we're going to be uh um working to to bring this technology available to our existing investor base. So for state street uh bank and trust we have the digital asset platform. Uh then we've got tokenization as a service as well as uh transfer agency which is really you know paired together. Uh and then there's also fund administration and accounting which is already live and is available to any types of investors that are investing in crypto assets or other things like that to have that accounting and that and and that recordkeeping available to them. Then on the asset management side that's sty investment management. Um and there we've uh already released a number of products uh earlier this year in partnership with Galaxy Digital uh that brings that kind of crypto exposure to our existing investor base through uh

product rappers that are familiar to our investor base. And then we're working together again with Galaxy Digital to bring additional products to market there. And that's where that partnership is really key for us. Uh we are a large asset manager. We have a lot of experience in in managing uh different portfolios and and and portfolio construction. Uh, and we partner with Galaxy Digital to really bring that different expertise. So, we have that DeFi expertise together with that Trafi trust and expertise. >> I I'd imagine that there's still a rather large percentage of the overall business of State Street is allocated to crypto. Revenue coming in is still somewhat small marginal to the >> It's very early days. Very early days.

Yes. >> Like how small are we talking like like like bips of the business? >> Like less than 1%. >> I I I I couldn't say. It's still uh it's eligible >> and and so >> but we're there and we're ready and we're we're assessing the marketplace and and most importantly we're listening to clients and our clients are starting to ask us now you know what how do I think about stable coins? How do I use stable coins? And then once I have stable coins, they're they're looking for a tokenized product. >> And and so, you know, we continuously hear from, you know, small native players all the way up through institutional that all of this will be on chain. And it feels sometimes like we're at a crypto conference. They're saying what we want to hear, but do you agree with this premise? And then as

that journey takes place, how do you see a rather negligible part of your business sort of capitalizing and transitioning into a larger part of what how do you prepare for something like that? >> Yeah. So um I think we again we look at as like a as a promising technology and so we don't actually carve it out from our regular business. We tend to embed our subject matter experts in our lines of business so that each of the lines of business will eventually adopt this technology where their use case matches the potential. So um we don't have a digital team that sits outside of our custody team that our digital team is embedded in our custody team. Our digital team is embedded with our transfer agent and our tokenization solution. Um and similarly on on the uh on the asset management side uh I lead

digital strategy. I sit within the cash team because that's where really where we see the first promise uh of of of digital assets uh and particularly tokenization taking a real effect on the on the value proposition of what it means to have a tokenized money market. For example, a money market fund today is not transferable. It's not easily used as collateral in derivatives uh financing or in securities lending. And so when you have a tokenized version of a money fund or represented uh share in a tokenized form, now you've got additional utility that you're unlocking. And that's what's really uh driving our interest in this space and our desire to create tokenized products.

>> Yeah. I mean, it has to start with demand, right? It has to start with with actual demand or else you kind of run into the issue that that that we've heard quite a bit of just why, you know, like why um when it comes to the actual business lines that the digital asset kind of arm or the cash arm could end up developing at State Street, is there any indication on what those business lines may be? Right. whether it's on the asset management side on on on the trading side like it like what is the potential for the business lines of a asset manager like stage street when it comes to digital assets >> so I think there's a lot of potential um where you know state street is starting with money funds um and that's really sort of the natural progression and I

and just to give you sort of the the business case behind that right so you see about 350 billion uh in USD is is invested in stable coins these stable coins are traveling everywhere where um stable coins aren't really paying a direct yield to the end holders and sort of maybe put the politics aside of whether they can do that eventually. Um you know that the uh holding a stable coin is like holding cash and you don't actually get any kind of return yield on that. So there's a really clear business case for those who hold stable coins to be able to sweep that into some sort of uh yield bearing asset just like you would in the traditional money funds uh space. you know, investors don't like to sit on idle cash and so having some sort of money fund or some type of yield

bearing asset that is uh relatively risk-f free uh is is sort of the first business case. So that's really where we're starting. Uh it's definitely not the end goal. I think you know if you look 5 10 years down the road you're seeing a lot more interest now in tokenized equities and tokenized funds. Um and there's a few drivers behind that. One of those is utility. Can we get can we create a product that investors have uh can can drive more utility from? And the second is can we reduce cost and I think the cost aspect is not totally clear at the moment. Uh you know we're doing new technologies and so very often we'll be running two different we'll be running a traditional books and records and then we'll also start um running things onchain. Um and eventually hopefully those those uh we'll we can sort of stop running on the

traditional books and then switch over uh purely to a digital onchain recordkeeping system and that should theoretically drive a lot of the costs down. But make no mistake, that is, you know, 5 10 years out in the future. And I've been, you know, I can tell you I've been in this space for about 7 years now. And every year I think, man, this is going to be the year where everything explodes. And it it's a slow burn. And um and that's because, you know, as a as an institution like State Street, we need to take thoughtful steps and make sure that we're doing things in a trustworthy way that we that we um we deliver products that investors can believe in, uh that they can value. Um, and so that we're not, you know, shooting from the hip and and and we don't necessarily need to be first. Uh,

we want to be an innovator and we want to make sure that we meet the demand of investors, but we want to do so in a responsible and safe way. >> Sure. >> Yeah. Sam, man, I know you're busy. It's going to be a crazy week. Thanks for spending some time with us today. It's been a great event. I know I know your panel was great as well. Keep fighting the good fight. Bringing the clients on chain man. >> Any any closing thoughts or bold predictions before we let you go? Um I I you know I I think the I would love to see u more tokenized assets come on chain for sure. I think that's I think this year would really be the year of tokenized um uh equities and tokenized funds. Um and it can happen in multiple ways. So it's not there's just

one answer to everything. I think that's often what people think is okay there's only going to be one way to tokenize. I think we'll see this year, for example, the DTC under their SEC no action letter, they're going to start tokenizing the uh products that are in their depository starting in July. So, that's going to be one mode of tokenization. I think that's really attractive for a lot of institutional investors um because they already have those relationships and holding those entitlements in different ways. And then we're going to see other third party platforms. You'll see some of the trading venues um start to issue tokenized versions of uh underlying assets they may hold. And then you're going to also, I think, see more issuer-led tokenization. So there's there's sort of all these different models of tokenization. I think they're all going to live in in um they're all

going to have some part to play in an investor's portfolio and how we think about uh investing in assets going forward. And then I think we'll probably see some consolidation towards you know 5 10 years from now one type of tokenization method might sort of outpace another. And that really is going to focus around, you know, can we really drive utility and additional benefit to the asset when it is tokenized and not just tokenize it for the sake of tokenizing. >> Yeah, exactly. >> Sam, thanks for joining us, man. >> Absolutely. Great. >> Appreciate you guys. >> Coming up the good fight, man. >> Take care. >> We'll see you next time. >> All righty, guys. The the large firms are out and they are bullish on tokenization. They are bullish on stable coins. They will continue to be. Guys, we're going to pass you to the panel.

There is another great panel ongoing here in Miami at the tokenized capital summit. venture picking the real world bricks. We're going to pass it over to you now. >> Second time Miami very very excited and especially I'm so happy to see this summit growing every single time that the team is hosting it. I mean big shout out to Gamma Prime what they're putting up here is just incredible and so big shout out to the team. We're investors in Gamma Prime. So when Evan told me first that you know we starting this liquidity summit and tokenized summit and all that stuff it's like amazing you know uh we're doing events ourselves so really understanding that you know what goes into putting something on like this and it's just amazing to see that grow. We run a

venture capital fund called TBV. We're based out of Singapore so it's been a bit of a journey to get here. Same as with uh our friends from Gondor Capital. you know, we flew half around the world to get here, but it's it's amazing to see the atmosphere, the energy here in Miami that's going to happen. And just to answer your question about what's difficult to underwrite, I mean, I agree with everything you guys said, but I want to just maybe point out a a specific example because that's something we just backed a couple months ago. And, you know, it's this whole part about tokenization. And I think a lot of people if they hear about tokenization, they don't think about the animal industry. And there's a lot of interesting angles within tokenization that is a tremendous market, but a lot of people probably wouldn't write a a

check immediately. And we have that opportunistic bucket in our venture capital fund that does some of these investments that are maybe, you know, not immediately easy to understand. But if you look at the big picture, it's a tremendous market behind it. And there's this company called Animal that we we invested in, we're very excited about. They're basically tokenizing cattle farms. And now you can own a cattle and you can support with liquidity to tokenized farms and they're able to scale and grow. And we've onboarded now already tons of farms in in Brazil in other emerging markets where the capital just isn't there to go from 100 cattle to a,000 to 10,000. And the return is interesting and it's definitely something that you know you guys all

consume unless you're vegan or vegetarian and it is a trillion dollar market and I think there's a lot of interesting need where blockchain and crypto can support not only in the cattle side but you know animals food all that infrastructure is very very interesting and that's something that you know we like to look at that from more of an opportunistic uh point of view. >> Sweet. Thanks. Hey everybody, Joseph Bjornson, founder of Profit. We've essentially built a platform that lets you trade against AI about anything. Um, I would say I'll I'll take a I'll take a step back and and say I I think uncertainty right now is generally at

pretty much an all-time high. At least sentiment from people in my generation and around different types of markets. No one really knows what's going on. people think that they do, but we have no clue what the next wave is going to look like. And so I think from at least my own personal experience, trying to solve a problem that may or may not exist in the future is probably not the best place to put your chips right now, but rather take inventory of your own problems that you're seeing day-to-day. And if you are trying to innovate in the space, don't put it all on a derivative outcome of the future, but rather figure out something that actually needs to be solved today. and and go from there.

>> Hey everyone, I'm uh Guy Syskin. I'm probably the odd one out here. I'm a founder, not a VC other than some angel checks. Um I really spend my time building. Uh so at Phoenix what we're doing is we're building uh postquantum secure cryptography uh and helping institutionals bringing onch uh assets onchain uh while maintaining their customer security and privacy. Uh we do that using um a technology called fully homorphic encryption. So my background is as a researcher and a cryptographer. Um and I maybe I'll give it a bit of a different answer. I think right now uh I don't know if people have seen the Google

report and many other institutions uh it seems like um non quantum secure cryptography which is basically the cryptography underpinning blockchains but also all banks and financial institutions that's going to be um maybe broken in the next two to three years. So this is the thing I'm excited about right now. This is I believe something that we all should be working on. Obviously we have a vested interest in that but that should be something that uh I think the investor community should also be paying attention to um but it is very hard to underwrite. It's not quite clear what will be the right solutions how that will take shape and form. So I think that's a very um underallocated and it exciting area to explore.

>> Wow. Thank you. That's a lot of information here. Are you guys taking notes? Just checking. >> Okay. Cool. Perfect. Thank you. Um, so given the undeniable uh institutional focus on crypto now, how differently do you think investors should approach their investments? Is it the different types of projects that we're looking at that just hit the narrative that's there right now? Is it the diff is it the different deal structures? Is it what is it what is it that you do differently?

uh what should people pay attention to once they start building under the current conditions? >> How would you like us to answer this one by one or >> Oh, please go one by one. >> All right, then. Um I think that having institutional focus come in doesn't fundamentally change what has been done so far. uh it accelerates quite a lot of different things because it means that more and more aspects of society and parts of the ecosystem will have more liquidity and funding as well as support plus plus integration with other parts of it. Right? Cryp crypto is not just some niche corner where people and hobbyists are playing around, right?

More and more serious folks are taking it seriously. um that allows another world of opportunity and possibilities to be opened up for crypto to actually go out there, impact more people and then be more widely adopted in the world. And I think that's my view. >> Yeah. So, I'd echo what you just said that in some ways like not much has really changed in what you're trying to invest in, but for us at least in reality, some things have changed. Um I would say that we try and maintain a higher standard um for underwriting investments. Um something that that comes to mind is

like we think much more about um balance sheet efficiency. So how much is this project raising? How much do they realistically need to build this product that they're describing? Um, if they raise a certain amount of capital, will they? >> All righty, guys. We are back at the Tokenized Capital Summit here in Miami. We're with the managing director of Gamma Prime, Shamon Molly. Shaman, welcome to the show, man. >> Good to be here, man. >> And thank you for having us out. >> Yeah, man. Gamma Prime rollup collaboration. The first of many, I hope.

>> First of many indeed. We heard your next one's in Singapore, so we're planning on joining you out there as well. >> Yeah, we shut that place down. So, >> yeah, let's go. Let's shut it down together, brother. Let's do it. >> So, I understand you work a bit more on the buy side of things, kind of facilitating some of the deal flow. Talk to us about what you're seeing out there as of late from your clients, from your customers. What's the kind of give us the lay of the land? >> Yeah, absolutely. So, I'll start with the fact that when it comes to the buy side participation, I I really take a pulse on what it is that they're looking for. Look, I'd be lying to you if five years ago when we were concepting Gamma Prime very deeply, uh, that we're like, we're going to have litigation finance

structured products in our, you know, that we're going to we're going to have specific types of deal flow that that investors are looking for. That wasn't the case. We let we let the we let the people who populate the marketplace dictate what exists in it. And in doing that, I believe we got a winning model. So, what are they looking for when it comes to crypto? whether you're crypto curious family office or you're uh you've been in it for a while, they're they're looking for safer bets, right? Uh you know, an 18 to 25% return profile is a lot more interesting than than 100% or you know, 1,000x uh moonshot as it relates to like a liquid fund or a or a native coin. So, >> yeah. Yeah.

>> Very cool. And so, how has the business of Game of Prime progressed? Because we've obviously seen how the crypto digital asset industry has matured quite a bit as of late. Um, it feels like we're going through these natural evolutions. How has the business of Gamma Prime progressed through digital assets, through some of these alternative investments generally? How have you seen demand follow in maybe the last couple of years? And I'm curious, maybe we can forecast out a bit. >> Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think a very bad question to ask any investor, any allocator is what are what do you invest in? Like if they if they're if they're investing, the answer is typically yes, I invest. Yeah.

Yeah. A better question would be what are you investing in next right like where is that balance as you perceive balance to be in your portfolio going to be and how can we help you uh access quality deal flow uh that's there right so we don't advise them on on what what is good we we get an understanding of what they're looking for and then we bring quality deal flow there's a lot of front-end heavy lift of weeding through Am I allowed to curse on here >> yeah go for it there's a lot of the heavy lift on of weeding through [ __ ] right like you come to suare like this you talk to people you connect with them and then it's like okay this is you know and then you you get one or two quality deals but what we've done is that so they don't have to right so

we've said no to about 400 different structured products or dealflow providers and we have about 38 on there uh where has where's the puck been going uh lately a lot of a lot of interest in access to uh to latestage marquee companies >> so uh so we've helped facilitate access through our GP and LP network which is global uh to help families and other other uh investors who have a position divest from their position like look if I if I bought Anthropic early I mean why wouldn't I take a little bit of uh you know liquidity from that um so we've been able to help that now our platform is actually going to be able to operationalize and improve the efficiencies of on-ramping and on-ramping into typically illquid

illquid deals that are worth a lot of money right >> how do you think that these IPOs are going to land on the market >> um look I think that uh it's been a long time since an IPO is nothing short of a liquidity event. Uh you know like look at Microsoft. You know Microsoft when they IPOed they they acquired capital and liquidity and then they built all of this cool stuff. That doesn't really happen anymore. I don't think that it's going to be as bad as all these doom and gloom like you know pitchfork and fight and torch uh uh people like presume it's going to be. I don't think it's really going to be bad at all. I mean the markets are cycles right? Like things go up, things go down. I mean, it's how long you're in the game and and how much

of your how much are you exposed? Uh let's be clear here like for me to have access to SpaceX um before it it's you know public great opportunity probably don't have it if I'm you know your average average Joe even if I'm an accredited investor probably don't have it. Um so >> I don't think that the future of space exploration I'm just using this as an example is anything shortlived. I don't think it's going to go anywhere, but uh but I also am not giving you any financial advice. So again, >> yeah, >> if somebody wants to access uh you know a company that that I personally think is nonsense, >> I don't have that conversation. I don't sell them on what it is that they're looking for. They are smarter than me.

They know themselves better than me, right? So this is what you're looking for. Great. I'm going to make sure that it's not >> not fagazy, right? That there's a quality counterparty on the other end of this, right? and that there's uh there's the things that you're looking for as the other counterparty um that's necessary for you to have the deal. >> They know their time horizon. They know their preferences. You don't get in the way of them in their business. I I am curious more about Gamma Prime, you know, given that you've got essentially a very wide breadth of of assets that you know you can make available to some of these investors. They know what they want. They come to you, they say, "Hey, we want XYZ."

given that, you know, you're kind of gota you've got to go go out and find it, but you don't know what they're going to bring to your table. How do you do that? Like, how do you bridge expertise and and sift through all the things that are out there when you don't really know what's going to come in the door, but then you've got to go find a counterparty for it? >> Yeah, you know, that's a good question. So, we do a lot on our end. Like I've mentioned, we've said no to over 400 funds. So, we have about 39 structured products or other fund fund like vehicles and we have about 39. So like that process we went through it. I'm not that guy but we have somebody that's you know that is he's an institutional person. He's got you know four different licenses. Uh he spearheads that

department. So he makes a decision on whether or not um you know this deal is good on the fund side. Well you don't have a you don't have a fund administrator. Uh we don't do the crypto just trust me bro thing. Um of course you know why? Because that's not what they want. So uh yeah I mean that that's that's as good as I can get into that on the other end. And like really the big the big uh picture of what it is that we're doing and building here isn't about serving the people who are already accessing access accessing the steel flow. It's not also about like helping people in third world countries put a thousand bucks into a hedge fund. That's not the the play either. But there are there is this pocket of of not at all served individuals uh in the states that

do qualify but they just don't know where to find it. Well, you can find it at Gamma Prime and that's why we exist. uh for every one uh entity or family with uh $10 million of investable assets or more in the United States alone, there's like 160 with one to three. They have no idea where to find this stuff yet. So the idea is how it is that we can be the Robin Hood of private investments. >> The idea is to serve that market as well as serve these other ones. And that's what that's how we believe we can scale beyond >> all of the profitable failures out there in this business. I'm curious what part of the business right now is driving the most growth comparatively to the other parts of the business. Maybe not the most nominal dollar growth, but what

part of the what part of the business is growing the most right now? >> Well, if you look around and you ask people about Belgium Prime um and they know that who we are, it would be uh it would be surprising that we've only been outward facing since February last year. M >> so all of this being the largest side event around all these major token conferences um you know we've had friends who are with very boutique uh you know firms uh private equity firms going to uh Davos and they're like oh you know I'm with so and so and they're like oh yeah I'm also partnered with Gamma Prime like oh Gamma Prime so like what is the result of that the result of that is essentially the ability to to execute on distribution and the ability to execute on distribution actually is a

transferable skill when it comes to marketing right and communication. So, with that marketing engine and the way that that works, like that's I would attribute all of our success to that. Um, if I were to talk and interface with these people and say, "Hey, my name's Chum and you know, yeah, I took a couple companies public, uh, you know, back in my, you know, and I've I've had a couple private exits and I've helped six other companies go public, but I don't have that visibility. I probably wouldn't be able to do my job to the degree that I could without the team that put all of this together and everything outside of our events together. So, Definitely, man. And I mean it this place is still buzzing hard. It's what? It's 5:00 p.m.

This place is firing. It's not slowing down. >> Before we let you go, just curious kind of what your personal directional view is on digital assets. Um I think that there's obviously a lot of excitement across different sectors, across tokenization here today. What's kind of your directional view on the market? >> Okay. Yeah, that's a good question. So look, if we circle back 5 years ago, you could put every single coin on like you could put most projects onto a board and you could throw a dart blindfolded and you probably wouldn't win if you had 10 dart or you probably wouldn't lose if you have 10 darts. Well, the space is maturing. Uh people uh groups and companies are being left in the dust because they simply don't actually solve any problems. Like I'm a remedial math determines whether or not I believe

there is a business upside. Are you making more money than you're spending? Are you making more money than you raised? Let's start there and then talk about the rest. Right? It's like, and then there's the other end of it. It's like, what is your project? Are you a project that has a token and a business >> whose um success is solely determined on people buying and selling your token? I'm like, I don't see much there. Right? So, I think that when it comes to digital assets, when it comes to it's mature. There aren't so many inefficiencies that you can capitalize on as a trader. Um there aren't so many um buzzwords that are that are that are going to get the uh get the lift or the uh the traction that you would have got.

You know what was a what was the narrative? Oh, we're an L1. Okay, we're not an L1 anymore. Now we're this and now it's AI and you're doing all this stuff just in order to appease a narrative but not really have anything. It's like anybody with half a brain or some maturity or legacy, they've had intergenerational wealth, right? They don't care about that. It's real simple fundamentals. So I'm going to focus out of like digital assets per se. I'm going to focus on the technology of web 3. Right? If we integrate web 3 technology to serve and improve efficiencies in existing businesses and to also remove some of the fat that uh that exists in the operational capacity of a business.

So you spend less money, you go faster, you scale faster, you automate. That's where the the future lies. >> Yeah. Very very cool. >> Sean man, again thank you for this event. Thanks for spending some time with us, man. uh great crowd, very institutional, very kind of mature as you say about the technology and about the way that the industry is evolving. You actually see in the culture, >> there's sophisticated capital here. It's sophisticated energy. >> Yeah, absolutely. Do you see all of those people wearing mascot outfits? No. Neither do I. So, uh yeah. Yeah. If you like if you really want to know where money is going, okay, and you want to you want to you want to hang out with some adults in the room. Um, and or you know, you made your crypto bag going on that roller coaster and you're like,

"Hey, it's about time that I start being smarter with my money cuz what I did in 2017 isn't going to work anymore." Come holler at me. Come check us out. We'd love to have you. >> Let's go. Cheers, man. >> All right. Cheers. Thanks for coming, man. We'll see you next time, man. >> Yeah, for sure. >> You heard it here first. The sophisticated capital is in the room, man. It's in the room, man. >> That guy was funny, man. >> Yeah, he was great. Camera Prime's been tremendous. I think it is going to help. No beard gets it every time. >> The beard gets every freaking time. >> Guys, we're going to pass you over to the panel. I think the rest of the venture panel is live right now. We are at the tokenized capital summit here brought to you by Gamma Prime. Ladies

and gentlemen, it is 5:00 p.m. in Miami. We got a new chat message. Let's go. Canton, >> Mr. Canton. >> Oh boy. >> All right, guys. We'll pass to the panel now. And I'm not sure whether I don't know what everybody else thinks is that if they are doing well, I will want to deploy more capital into them to make sure that they definitely have enough more than enough to do even better. Um, I think that's the simple VC game. If there are VCs who decide to take out capital, especially on projects or for projects that are doing well, I think that's just a generally a bad sign.

>> Yeah, 100% agree with that. like most of your bets are not going to work out. So the ones that are showing signs of working out, you have to you have to support them. Um yeah, so we haven't really changed that and you know pretty much every investment we do has some kind of lockup with it. So you know we're structurally in there for the long term, you know, come good or bad. Um and of course Amber Group has our market making arm which is market neutral. Um we have our statarb team and other you know kind of like systematic strategies. We have an onchain team that does look more at these sorts of uh yield farming opportunities and they'll of course try

and you know participate in points programs for what they consider to be the most promising protocol. So um like to answer your question Amber Group as a whole yes we do kind of everything. Um, and at least what we've seen is that, you know, some there are some periods where one of those isn't working out, but another one is. And, you know, it sort of goes back and forth. Sometimes, uh, the VC stuff is doing better. Sometimes the, you know, points farming is is outperforming. Um, so you hope that ultimately your your winners outweigh your losers. But yes, 100% on the venture side, gota got to back your winners 100%.

Um in our case today we have uh 10 portfolio companies. We're very concentrated. Um we are now actually kind of like increasing it and start deploying much faster. The last year and a half we saw valuation quite high and now we see them declining going down. Um in our current portfolio let's say eight eight out of the 10 are positive uh cash generators. Uh so like we have LiFi and Chaos Labs and some other pretty known project that uh generating cash. We're highly recommending most of the projects to learn from the get- go what's their business model um and how they can leverage it. A token it's a token like

it's the way we see it. It's it's it's a good solution but not always. Um, yeah, >> we're not a trading firm, so we're like venture capital fund. We haven't really changed a ton of things. We always invest more in a market like this than in like a bull market. The bull market, we try to kind of like more, you know, watch and see and make very few bets because it's typically very overpriced and it's hard to make a decision. I'm a very strong believer in progress over time. Um, so I like to do smaller checks first and then sort of grow with the company because uh, you know, it's very it's very easy to give a

very good pitch and have a good documentation, but then it all comes down to execution. Um, and kind of like doing more selective bets and conviction bets rather than just like going in a market and invest in things that like sound really awesome but haven't really done that sort of proving point yet. Um, and especially in this market, there is a bit more time to make decisions. There's a there's less noise. So, I think it's it's generally like better for operators to to work in there, but it's also a bit rougher, of course, because money isn't always maybe immediately available.

My trading strategy has worked very well for me over the past few cycles. Again, also pretty unorthodox. I've uh borrow stables against ETH Bitcoin and buy physical gold and silver and at a conservative LTV and it's uh if [ __ ] were to hit the fan and the internet goes bust then our cryptos vaporized anyway. Um and then the gold and silver would probably 10x overnight. So it's kind of like a lottery ticket baked into a double barrel long strategy on kind of an anti-dollar libertarian maximalist.

>> Wait, sorry, could you repeat what you do? Yeah, that woke you up. Um, I I basically I borrow stables against ETH and Bitcoin and then buy physical gold and silver on, you know, bullion dealers online and then you're long Bitcoin and ETH and then also long precious metals. And so if something were to happen to the internet in a doomsday scenario, you have physical gold and silver that would probably 10x overnight because the internet went out. Um, and then you're also if you're anti-dollar and you think the dollar is going to keep getting weaker, which I believe in, then works out.

>> So, if you missed it, there's also a recording on that. You'll be able to find that later. >> Don't look up where I live. >> I have very little to say here. I took notes. I mean, great advice, everyone. Thank you. I'm just a buy and hold kind of boring guy for like things that I believe in 10 years plus. So, >> thank you so much. What are the cooler exciting trends that you see now and how do they compare to the existing projects versus new projects coming out? Do you see more trends with already existing businesses that sort of get this second breath of fresh air or is it the new

stuff that's coming out? >> I mean there's a few trends per dexes and per dex is related. There is prediction markets and prediction markets related. There's defi deepin and a bunch of other things. Then there's the whole AI agentic AI economy kind of stuff going on. I think at this stage of what I'm looking at in the environment, a lot of the work is being done not setting up the foundations because by definitions the foundations have been set up by certain companies. I think it is trying to finesse what is already out there and try to improve and or deliver certain outcomes. For example, leverage markets on prediction markets for example or taking leverage bets either

here or there. Um so there's a lot of good stuff that's happening there and my view is that foundations are set up but do remember that crypto is still a very small bubble. There is a whole world out there who does not touch crypto in any way shape or form. Uh to bring that person or persona into the crypto sphere so as to speak uh we have to make products give them what they want I suppose or solve problems for them. Um so roundabout way of answering your question I think there's a lot of stuff that is going on to optimize and or build on what has already come and I think that is exactly the right way because that's where that that gets us to the next stage of what crypto can be.

>> Yeah. I think um I I suppose it's a trend now but it's been an idea since like a long time probably since I first started back in like 2017. and it's like tokenized regular assets um whether it be stocks or commodities. And I think really the the big advantage that we're seeing happen real time is like their 247 nature of them and like having decent liquidity 24/7. I mean, you see, you know, news headlines that happen with Iran and they happen to they tend to happen around like close to futures open, but not when it's open, you know.

So, it's nice to be able to have um that ability to trade headlines regardless of whether or not a market is open. Um, and again, like that's something that people have been talking about forever, but now it's sort of like a reality and it's um uh it works well. So yeah, I think we'll hopefully we'll see more of that. >> I'll pass this one. >> Pass it. >> Uh yeah, I mean I keep I keep it short because I'm I think we're a bit out of time, but very much agree with what you guys said. I mean I think trends in in web 3 always come and go and you know I'd like to see something that actually

sticks and remains. I I honestly really like the the angle of deepen and now deepen is dead and now we're moving over to then Bitcoin was dead and now it's prediction markets and then it's AI and then it's for me it's a little hard to make investment decisions in VC when you're long-term based on trends right if you're a trader I think it makes sense because you're kind of more in and out but if you're investing like let's say the equity of a startup and you're looking at like a five six seven years horizon and it'll be like oh deepen is amazing let's put all our money in deepen I think is a very bad idea. So for us or for me how I look at it is very much like what is actually just solves problems and if deepen has an angle to that amazing if it doesn't

okay. Uh if AI can support that problem great if tokenization is an angle that you know I see this whole thing as just like a tech stack right it's like we try to solve this problem and what's the best technology to get us there in the cheapest and most efficient way. Um, and if that's what it takes to solve that problem in the best manner as we believe at that point in time, great. And that's how I look at a trends overall. >> I I would say for me it's the next wave of what is coming in in AI. The first first wave you gave it words, it gave you back words. Second wave we gave it words, it gave us songs. Third wave, we gave it words, it's trading for us on Poly Market and making dinner dinner reservations. But the next wave, I'm

going to call it audacious AI, which you give it words, it goes and gets a legal entity and a PO box and a phone number. And I think that's when the fun's going to start. >> Yeah, I'll stick to this to the um infrastructure side. So, uh postquantum security and really AI security. >> Thank you so much. I've had a different question prepared as the last question, but let's make it a quick blitz round. Just say yes or no. Do you believe that TRDFI will integrate well into web 3 in 5 years? Yes or no?

>> Yes. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. For sure. >> Yes. It's uh going permissionless. >> And that's the end of the panel. Thank you so much for joining. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you. Yeah. Yeah.

Ah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ah, yeah.

Hello. Hello. Hello everyone. Please let me introduce your next speaker, which is profit AI. That is an AI that predicts the future, helps you see what's coming before it's obvious. This allows you to trade any market you can imagine. Please welcome Eno.

>> Thank you. Thank you very much. Hello everyone. Hope you're enjoying the the late afternoon and you're here CMO at Profit and I'm here to introduce what we've been building. Profit is an AI that predicts the future. What exactly does this mean? It means that you can ask Profit any question and it will generate you the odds. Once you have these odds, you can then take a trade directly against the AI. I was going to open a market earlier. Will the teleprompter have my notes or not? I I would have traded no and hedged my bets.

This is how profit works. If we can click play, you can type in any question about the future. For example, will African penguins be extinct by the year 2035? >> Could we please hit um hit play on this this little demo? Yo, we just we just need to play this. Thank you. Nope.

It's possible to hit play. Otherwise, we're going to we're going to keep keep going. >> Cool. We're going to keep going. How it works is you ask Profett any question about the future. for example, will African penguins go extinct? What the model then does is it aggregates consensus between six different large language models to present you with the odds. Once we have the odds, we'll present it to you and you can choose yes or no. Which would you like to trade? You can think of this as the world's first single player prediction market. Traditionally, for prediction markets, you need to have two parties, one to trade against. With profit, we always take the other side of the trade. You can think of it

as AI is the house. We sit with a bankroll and we will supply that capital into every market based on the odds that we able to generate. We funded an AI with $10,000 to trade against the public. This is TR one and it's how we building our platform. In order to build an AI that can predict the future, we know we're not going to get it right first time. So, the way we've done it is in tanches. With this trench, the maximum win per market is $10. You can ask any question. We'll generate you the odds and within the time period it will resolve. We then learn which markets we can back and which markets we shouldn't back moving forward.

The idea here is really to try and break it. To try and find different niche markets that you can open where we'll get the pricing wrong. To try and find markets where you can manipulate the outcome. To try and find markets where the AI >> All righty guys, welcome back to the tokenized capital summit. We are here with the Amber Group investment partner Austin knows. Austin, welcome to the show man. >> Thank you guys. >> Thank you for joining. >> Yeah. Oh yeah, >> bro. >> Uh, you know, I have sport events. So, we'll >> keep it we'll keep it chill. Yes, >> sir. I just I just got back from El Salvador. I was at Bitcoin Beach doing all the El Salvadorian things. Tell you

what, that's that that place is an up andcoming place. >> Well, yeah. My grandma's actually from there. So, >> I need to I need to make the trip down. >> Yeah. As a crypto person, it's a cool spot. >> So, what's your prerogative here in Miami? you know, you like you said, lots of work night events, investor meetings and whatnot. What What are you trying to accomplish this week? >> Um, yeah. So, I'm always at these events for, you know, networking, uh, meeting projects that either are looking to issue a token and and that need to hire a market maker, um, or early stage investments. Um, so yeah, I'd say this week is more gonna be on the market making side, but you know, we're always open to opportunities, so it's kind of whatever people have to offer.

>> That whole market has changed up so much. I'm sure I'm sure you've seen it, right? Like just the amount of awareness that people have about the shenanigans of exchanges and market makers. Like you guys get a bad rep. >> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. But like how has that materially changed in the last year >> in terms of our reputation or in terms of >> No, in terms of the the market structure dynamics. >> Yeah. Um I'd say for us it hasn't changed that much because we've always uh worked very hard to maintain a solid reputation >> and making sure that we're doing things by the book. Um there are some market makers whose employees got arrested recently for doing like active market making where they're effectively, you

know, manipulating token prices. Yeah. >> vindication that you know we were doing the right thing. >> And so what separates active market making manipulation like these people got arrested for versus like market making the right way. >> Yeah. So when you're market making the right way, you're you're placing bids and asks in the order book and you're maintaining a certain amount of uh order book depth, right? So that way people can execute larger trades without pushing the price without without facing a lot of slippage, right? Whereas active market making is, you know, uh uh being

a price taker and pushing prices around to paint a chart a certain way or to achieve some some goal of of maintaining a price, defending a price, whatever. Uh so that's that's where it crosses the line. >> And so as a market maker, are you able or allowed to take directional bias and you know say, "Hey, we have a long bias on this thing because we believe in it. We think it's a good project. It's doing it's doing a good job. We want to make sure that there's a liquid market here, but we also want to, you know, be biased towards the upside or or would that fall into active market maker?

>> We don't um we don't have a view on the tokens that we're trading. Um a market maker, I like to think about it like uh pawn stars, the pawn shop, where yeah, that guy doesn't care if you come in with a guitar or a gun or a map or whatever. he's gonna set a price that he's willing to buy and he expects another buyer to come and buy from him shortly thereafter. So that's kind of it's the exact same thing we're doing. Um that said like you know in the in the course of market making you will gain some exposure sometimes right because it's like someone sold to you okay now you're long and you're trying to get back to neutral and sometimes you end up longer than you wanted to right like if

people keep selling into your buy orders then you will naturally accumulate a long position then you're trying to get back to neutral and this the the reverse can be true as well that people are buying tokens from you buying buying and so you're selling into those buys and so you end up net short. So, but the goal at all times is to maintain market neutrality. >> Yeah, >> man. So, there was this crazy token called Rave Down. >> Yeah. >> And I don't know if you saw that that that move in the subsequent fall. >> I did see >> what was happening was there was like these a lot of like these like like the funding rate was at around $20. The funding rate was around4500%.

So it was nearly impossible to even short without just getting without, you know, absolutely getting blown out just by the funding rate. And so there's this way that these that these funding rates are like luring shorts, blowing them out, luring shorts, blowing them out, and then just collapsing these things. >> Yeah. Uh >> not great. Anyway, >> yeah, I I honestly can't I don't know. I don't know what they did or how. >> Me either. >> But that thing was insane. >> Yeah, it's it's definitely crazy to see and and we don't like to see it. Are you guys market making tokenized assets as well? Like non-crypto assets? >> Uh, a little bit. Yes.

>> On hyperlquid or >> we've started trading um tokenized stocks a little bit like X stocks I think is the is the main one. >> Yeah. >> Um >> so yeah we are looking to expand. We looking a little bit at prediction markets that kind of thing. >> Okay. >> So yeah like it there these things are happening more often on chain um and we have all that infrastructure set up to do that. So yeah if there's um good opportunities there. We don't, like I said, we don't have a view. >> Long or short, like we don't >> just provide liquidity. >> Exactly. Like there are people that want to gain or or remove their exposure quickly >> and they're willing to trade at a less than perfect price to do that, right?

>> You know, like if they stuck around or more were more patient on average, they would get a slightly better price, right? >> And we're just there providing that service. If you don't want that risk or you want you want exposure to that risk, here you go. I'm providing that service and hopefully, you know, I'm I'm giving I'm getting a slightly better price for myself by providing that service. >> Austin, we know you've got to run to an event. >> Some beers to be had. >> Yeah. So, we uh appreciate you taking some time here and give us a quick 101 on on the basics of market making. >> Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's that's what I'm here for. Like my job is just to explain what we do and how it works because you're right, we have a bad rap and but once I explain it to people,

then they say, "Oh, okay. It makes sense. I'm comfortable with that." And >> it's a helpful service. >> Yeah. Yeah, they see it as a helpful service. That's exactly. >> Thank you so much for joining. >> Thanks, man. Good luck this week. All right. Take it easy, man. >> See you next time. >> There we go. Market makers aren't the worst, guys. That's That's the DCs. >> Take it easy on these guys. >> We're having some fun with this guy, huh? >> You don't want to be a liquid. >> A little bit of fun, huh? >> Ladies and gentlemen, we are at the Tokenized Capital Summit. It is a beautiful day in Miami and it is getting to be 5:30 p.m. I think we've got our next guest up.

>> Do we? >> I think so. We're We're going to pan you guys to the panel and we're going to be right back. We've got a nice keynote up right now. >> Three topics. One, rate discovery. Two, a new financial taxonomy. Uh, yay, boring words. But when you put these things together and deal with what agentto agent finance actually is, I think it paints a decently cohesive picture as to what I think we all know the future looks like. So starting with rate discovery, crypto did a great job of price discovery. Everyone thought it was cool.

We got dexes led to money markets, pers, launchpads, um protocol owned liquidity, LBPs, all kinds of really cool ways to discover the price of assets that had no inherent value. Um, Bitcoin was a great proof of concept. Love P2P cash. I hold Bitcoin. That's fantastic. We probably didn't need 10,000 billion governance tokens of things that were hoping to get a 100red users and keep them active for a month. Um, it it never made sense. It was a bubble. But there was speculation around something really cool. What's cooler than price discovery is rate discovery.

Rates are in everything. You're dealing with assets that have price that now you have to factor how long they lock up. What are rates in different countries? Rates have had moes from regulation that we can now bypass with international trade. There are ton ton of opportunities that we're doing. would love to talk to you afterwards just with rate discovery and rate arbitrage instead of price arbitrage. um that it works with you know per it works with money markets just any anything especially international trade anything trade finance there's some kind of rate game around it take the yen carry trade do it with every asset ever imagined so pillar two we're going to talk about a new taxonomy you guys probably check

when the rates change every quarter um see how the breakdown is like oh goodness M2 is now 4.1x what M0 is that might collapse s where where's our taxonomy for crypto? Are all stables the same? Are you cool taking USDC or can I like pay you US instead? Or now the stables with, you know, 11 digits after it because everyone can make a stable coin. So then what makes it different? If we're going to have stable coins be the basis of transaction, then it has to have a really solid taxonomy that's understandable by all parties. But we've been using what's easy for people that is grotesqually inefficient that agents

wouldn't stand to use. So let's go into what basically a stable coin is. What an M2 is you're going to have the base deposit. You're going to have M0. You're going to have cash under your mattress and you're going to put it into a bank account. They're going to lend it out. They're going to earn money. They might give you a tiny bit back. They might not. But then you're going to have a deposit slip that you can redeem for cash at some point. This is the same as a this is the same as Morpho. But you have the deposit earning money and then you have the circulating liquidity layer that doesn't earn interest. So that it could be high velocity you can transact in. I'm going to talk about one of our clients and

protocols we're we're working with here called Defreate how the Federal Reserve and local banks work in a way that makes sense for AI. So you guys have probably heard of USDC. USDC uses the same process. You know, they've got M0 capital. They buy T bills. Those T bills are generating yield. That yield goes to Coinbase. $98 million last year and some to Circle. Good for them. Have you heard of M0? M0 took that same process and they're like, "Hey, how come they're giving $98 million to Coinbase? like can't we just give it to you as a chain? You guys, the whole chain has a stable now and now you

guys keep it and you can kick it back however you want. That's a step in the right direction. It's slow and it's clunky. But on the other side of USDC is literal banks where they don't even kick the 98 million back to circle. They just keep keep it for banks. So you have banks, little bit better as USDC, lot a bit better as M0, but we need to get to a point where it's smaller and faster and AI native. On the other side, um, where AI payments are, they're calling it agent to agent. There are no widespread agent to agent protocols right now. X42 M.

>> All righty, guys. We are back at the tokenized capital Summit. Robbiey's taking a beer break. I think he needs it. We've got the profit founders on, Ano and Joseph. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. I'm digging the sport coat, man. I don't know what this is, man, but we we'll give you a pass. All right? You know, >> I've already been made fun of for wearing shorts. It's >> No, come on. It's Miami, man. Come on. Gentlemen, you guys are the founders of Profit Markets, a company that is predicting the future. So, my question to you is, if you can predict the future, why are you still here talking to me? Why are you not on your yacht?

>> Super fair question. So, we already have our yacht, but we want to give you a yacht. We want to make sure everybody else in the whole world can get their yacht. And if you think that you're better at predicting the future than AI, then play around with profit. >> There you go. So prediction markets have really grown in popularity and in size obviously, right? I mean these things are really becoming the de facto in some cases an insurance layer in some cases a a hedging tool in some cases just a tool to place bets or predictions or gamble. talk to us about what you guys are doing in that space to really make this something more accessible for people who want to utilize these tools and get you know you know build a way with AI to make better predictions and decisions

>> for sure. So just just to zoom out on poly market currently there's 1,700 markets that are live but if you think about how creative people are and the amount of different things you could speculate on the longtail prediction market is insane but today if you wanted to open up a market will say LMFA on the roll up you wouldn't be able to open it because you would need to place liquidity there's some um other companies that have risen up and said we we allow for curated markets where you can curate a market but you're still stuck with a liquidity problem. So that's really what we're solving in that we have an AI house and we take the other side of every trade. What that house does is it's a pricing algorithm that generates the odds and then us ourselves would will trade against the

users. So it's sort of like a single player prediction market. >> So you can create a market for like more esoteric longtail markets. >> Anything >> anything >> you want to you want to trade on whether or not the penguins will be extinct by 2030. >> Yeah. >> Trading endangered sea life big markets. And so as as you were saying the issue has been a lack of liquidity for these more longer tail markets and this is the core problem that you guys have effectively solved. >> Yeah. So we've built built profit under two assumptions. One is that prediction markets currently require too many humans. So you need a human to actually create you the market on something like poly market or call sheet. You need a human to take the other side of the trade and you need a human to settle the

market. And so we removed any of the needs for humans and we basically tapped AI to to give us uh give us all the resources there. And then on the other assumption that we're building under is that AI will be better than humans at predicting the future. So if you if you disagree with that in the short run then come and get your fill. >> Yeah. And so what are some of the markets that have been created so far that are more esoteric or longer tail? >> Well, we've been live for approximately 12 hours. >> Oh wow. Congrats guys. One of the most the most entertaining markets so so far is will Elon tweet scam Altman in the next 3 days.

>> Okay, >> it's pretty niche. Someone else someone else asked will will stretch DPEG. Um someone else asked >> will Elon tweet May the fourth be with you? Um we probably have around 10 10 15 markets live at the moment, but they're they're coming online every couple minutes. And so is the thesis then that the there's a a cohort of people that would like to uh engage in these markets that aren't just not going to be available on poly market and Koshi and so you can kind of come to profit markets and have kind of your pick at anything that you want and also engage with similar-minded people who are probably thinking about you know similar uh games or outcomes as well.

>> Yeah, absolutely. So there's right now, you know, there's there's a lot of these mass mass market prediction markets that you can jump into like, you know, Trump and all these different these big big ticket items, but the more longtail niche ones, if you have local politics that you want to trade on, if you have local weather systems that you want to trade on and things that are not going to be maybe as mainstream, AI is virtually infinitely scalable. So you can you can very easily do that. And you're the, you know, you're the creator of your domain. So the the world is your oyster in terms of what you're able as long as the AI can objectively settle the market, you can create a nonprofit.

>> Yeah. Because because that becomes the question with some of these markets is the resolution. Right. On poly market, you've seen UMA the Oracle have certain debates in terms of their DAO. You've seen that you know Khi kind of solves these markets internally. The the resolution becomes a problem on these esoteric models. >> Right. So in the actual you can explain the >> the way that the resolution works the resolution. So the user who creates the market is very clear how the AI will determine the outcome. >> So what it first does is it validates the question. So if you ask a question about what happens on the rollup, it will say based on a script published by the rollup.com uh on this date at this time. And there is currently still a

hallucination effect that can happen. it's sort of part of the risk that the user is taking because it can also happen in their favor where it hallucinates and the market resolves in in the way that the the user the user wanted. But yeah, we don't we just don't think it's feasible to have humans and it definitely not necessary long-term resolving all of these markets and having whole committees around like simple yes or no questions. >> Yeah. And what model are you guys using for the uh AI part of this? So, we've got an amalgamation of a ton of different standard models under the hood. Plus, on top of that, we've got some proprietary stuff that we're embedding to basically make this a dynamic living machine that's going to

keep getting smarter over time and learning from its own mistakes and successes. >> So, basically, you're going to be training this mo or this, you know, aggregation of model, you know, and and intelligence over time. Exactly. to effectively build something that based on previous successes or failures can give slowly over time as the intelligence of these models increases and as there's more information and data and training can effectively become better than anybody else at predicting based on past events. >> Bingo. That's right. Yeah. The more the more we throw at it, the better it's going to get at catching.

>> Yeah. Maybe just to break down a bit of the launch strategy, this is trunch one now. So, we've got $10,000 in the house. Markets need to resolve within seven days. Chance two will double it up. So markets can resolve within two weeks, 20k in. And slowly but surely, we'll we'll see how much money did we win or lose. And at some point, we'll have enough track record to really open up the gates and allow for people to create markets at scale, increase the size of the markets that we back. There might be a scenario where we see that the model's really good at predicting the price of Bitcoin on fiveminute candles. So we allow for the max bet uh that the house will take to be $1,000 on those markets.

whereas it's only $10 on will this person tweet something because I can be manipulated. >> And is there a way for me to like tail the AI in the future or like say I see the track record of this intelligence that has been built and I'm just like you know what I want to put 20 grand to just copy all of the decisions that this AI makes. >> So you want to you want to say this one? >> Yeah. I mean that the longterm we're building a house that we will essentially have to raise capital into. If we can show a track record over 12 months of the house consistently winning, it basically becomes an investment option.

>> But then as a user, why would I ever come to play on a platform where I'm the odds are stacked against me? I mean, you could also make >> Have you ever played relet or craps? >> Have you ever gone to Vegas? Right. Like of course >> it's a blast, right? Right. >> Um, so the other there's two ways right now that on our road map that a user can essentially back the house. One way is immediately >> as soon as the house places a bet, you can come in and you can basically absorb the house's position. So you can just you can just buy the house position immediately. The other way is eventually we will open it up and democratize the house revenue stream. So LPS can come in, retail can come in and deposit into a vault that essentially is the liquidity of the house.

>> Yeah. Because on like perplexes for example, similar level of I guess dynamic between player and house where they've got these kind of like LP vaults that you can deposit into effectively take the other side of the trade from from everyone who's on the platform. >> Exactly. Then you got to worry about, you know, people trying to manipulate the platform or, you know, stuff. >> Yeah. There's all kinds of toxic flow that we've got dozens and dozens of fail safes against and we'll only going to get, you know, it'll keep getting better and and uh we'll figure out how to get the people that are counting cards out of the casino.

>> Exactly. Gentlemen, congrats on the launch. Um, thanks for spending some time. I know it's just a couple minutes, but just wanted to catch up on the launch. I know it's been, you know, some time. Great event here and hope you guys have have a great week in Miami. >> You, too. Appreciate you having us boys. >> Congrats on the launch, guys. >> Thank you. Appreciate it. >> All righty, guys. We're going to pass it back to the panels and we will be right back with our next guest here at tokenized capital summit >> has lasting value. Come down to a few of the following items. Number one, understanding what's worked and what hasn't worked based on what's come before you. choose choosing the right asset to attach to it, the right use case, make finding something that's actually useful and going to retain the

value. Third, the the community, the brand, getting pe getting people on board for it so that you can bring in liquidity. And finally, protecting the growth that you generated through the community that you sustained through the usefulness uh by protecting yourself from taxes and properly structuring your your endeavors the right way. And this panel that we have here today represents all of those different angles of it. So Julian, >> we're missing someone today, but they're on their way. Is this Cersei Fiani up here? But uh he he'll be here shortly.

>> So to get things started off in one sentence, what is a to successful token launch look like in 2026? And how do you how do you see this evolving? And what role are you playing in this evolution? >> So a successful project to me is a strong community having access to resources to continue and incentives to continue the the influx of cash flow and and uh liquidity into the project. And what role I'm playing is I'm I'm bringing strategic partnerships uh curating uh spaces and events to continue growing the community.

Antonio, >> I think to be able to um launch a token, first and foremost, you need an asset, right? So, you need an asset. We we we base the projects we do on real world assets. Um a real world asset is something which obviously has some sort of value in the real world. It's not just some digital um asset. There is something which is a collateral security in the real world. And then ultimately after launching the token you have to be able to to either maintain the value of the token or increase the value of the token. So for me it's a lot about community, it's about experiences, it's about kind of connecting the dots between the various touch points. So these I think the two aspects I would say for a successful launch um in 2026.

Um, what I think as far as a su a successful launch is teaching people how to structure things correctly from the beginning because people think about launching things but you have to have the proper structure in order for things to come out correctly when you want to exit because it has to be an entrance strategy and an exit strategy. So structure is very important in launching. You have to think about both the entrance and the exit. So this one is for Antonio say because you say the intersection of aentic AI and tokenization. Could you walk us through where AI stops being a

tool and starts becoming infrastructure for token launches? >> I I think we heard it throughout the day, right? So so especially agents um for me when we think about the the smart contracts, right? So far, smart contracts are able to execute automatically certain rules um at certain trigger points. What I find very interesting is when now the machines start talking to each other actually. So when let's say a certain situation is being triggered, something is being executed, the contract comes to fruition. Now what does that mean in the real world or the traditional world? A lot of people sit on a lot of timeline and dates for contracts. that we're not

even aware of. That problem is being solved with smart contracts. But then you actually have to have the ability on two sides to pick this up and do something with it. So I see this new multi- aent world and it's happening today already in a way that these agents are able to communicate with each other are able to trigger out outside workflow situations based on the fact that you know a you know smart contract or something has been triggered. This this this ability to automatically trigger workflows in addition to execute the workflows is something which is happening today. And if people don't have that strategy embedded in their companies, in their funds, in their, you know, tokenization projects, then I see them being falling behind significantly.

>> And Julian, you're tokenizing real estate and infrastructure across the US and Latin America. Crossber RWA is where most projects collapse on compliance. What does a framework look like that actually attracts institutional capital look like in practice and where do most operators get structuring wrong? So first and foremost you want to have a proper structure. Private wealth chateau which Margarita's representing is one of those types of structures where they can architect your company your personal state to make sure you're protected and you don't get ridiculously taxed. Right.

And then secondly, the framework of El Salvador is one of the best in the world and it's the easiest to get to structure your project. And um what you would do is you would go out there, you set yourself up, and then you could be able to launch your project out of that country just like people do in Dubai and other countries except the regulatory framework in El Salvador is clearcut and you can scale and do things you couldn't do in other countries. What was the second part of the question? >> Where do most operators get structuring wrong? So most operators just decide to go to like Malta or Dubai and there there's no consumer protection. So if I was going to invest in your project, I wouldn't feel safe because you could run off and there's no rep like no one reprimanding

you for, you know, stealing people's money. where in a place like um where the like United States or El Salvador where it's you get you know jail time and it's serious people feel safer because they know their money is going to be um protected. >> Excellent. Margarita, real estate has been about to be tokenized for the better part of a decade. As a broker replacing real assets with global clients and family offices, what's actually shifted in 2026? And what still has to change before tokenized real estate gets treated as a real allocation rather than a curiosity?

>> Well, I my first tokenization on real estate was done in 2020 when people really weren't talking about it. I was affiliated with a different company and we took an asset in Bickl, the SLS Bickl, all the commercial spaces and we tokenized it. It was a $20 million transaction. It was unheard of at that time. People were weren't really talking about it, but we were able to take that asset, tokenize it, and now the asset is worth three times that amount. So, people weren't looking at it back then. Now it's something that's more common in in in conversations in places like these. So I would say that tokenizing is the way to go because you can take an

asset, get multiple investors involved and then you can grow your asset and then that's where Shatau private wealth advisors come in where we can help you when the asset appreciates to be able to have an ex exit strategy for that capital gains and not have such a large tax implication. >> Thank you. You're welcome. >> So, and we're we're going to do a round robin with this. What separates a token with lasting liquidity from one that pumps and disappears?

Utility. Uh, so lasting liquidity requires incentives for the holders to continue to hold, right, and participate in the project. All righty, guys. We are back at the Tokenized Capital Summit hosting tons of founders, CEOs, institutional allocators today. This place has been full of really, really highquality people all day long. It's really been a pleasure. Shout out to Game of Prime and their entire operation. We've got the co-founder and CEO of Kia, not the car company, Mark. Welcome to the show. >> Thank you. Thank you for joining.

Pleasure. Yeah, >> absolutely. Well, you're our final guest for the day. Last certainly not least, we've talked to the likes of State Street, Robin Hood, all of the heavy hitters out here. Very, very excited to learn about Kia. >> Please tell us a little bit more. >> Sure. Sure. Um, first of all, amazing events. Was great to see such big names here and ideas, learn so much about the industry like from from uh the the decision makers, which is amazing. Uh we are building a global uh stable coin and banking infrastructure for the corporate clients.

>> Yes. >> With the mission to bank the underbank clients globally. >> Okay. Okay. And so when you talk about the underbanked clients globally, are we primarily focusing on Latin America, other regions? What's kind of the prime target customer base there? uh these days due to regulatory fragmentation uh compliance friction and so on so on any client especially corporate clients can become underbanked like we've seen the phenomena of unbanked clients the clients um users that don't have full access to financial system banking system uh without like full inclusion now we see a huge emergence of those who have access to banking system but for some reason due to the risking due to inefficient procedures and processes

like a lot of especially corporate clients these days become unbanked debanked de and they struggle to get a bank account. I think like most of the founders, most of the digital businesses experience to some extent that issue. Um and and the uh problems are clear. Yeah. Regulatory tech uh and general like approach towards dealing with corporate clients is old >> whereas like the products the uh demands completely changed like what they offered. I if I have a uh if I'm a corporation, you know, I uh I'm in a country with capital controls or some regulatory scrutiny towards towards digital assets, I get debanked. How do I

go about leveraging stable coins reaching out to KIA? How do you help improve my business? >> Right. So, first of all, at this stage, we work only with corporate clients. So if you have a structure which is I don't know international business company or some entity which is dealing locally u um historically yeah we've seen stable coins was used originally as as a movement of liquidity between huge exchanges. So we're far far uh ahead of this um what we've seen uh the first uh emer like significant surge of stable coins being used uh in original like crypto OG use cases and payment method right so we see the things that uh crypto checkout solutions uh crypto

payment processing which we're actually also doing ourselves like emerging and actual settlements with Visa and Mastercards with payment schemes in stable coins are like growing like crazy this year. >> Uh that's that's one and second sorry uh second which is very important is like thing called uh stable coin sandwich which is basically like leveraging stable coins to uh basically bypass the inefficient swift network >> to use like local rails on both sides of transaction. So which is amazing that it grows. Yeah, man. I actually had the head of stablecoin strategy on from Visa and he spoke to me about their stable coin settlement business and he said that they're already doing billions of dollars of ARR in stable coin settlement

and it's pretty much just on ramping and offramping >> for them. Billions is nothing, right? We wait till it I think it's already reached trillions, right? And we're talking about settlements between uh card issuers or acquirers uh between the Visa and Mastercard directly in stable coins without offramping. That's like growing. >> Okay. And that is the process that they're trying to solve. They're trying to be able to bring your money into their portal and then be able to get it to other jurisdictions or other currencies without going offchain. And so you're saying you want to plug into that kind of sandwich?

>> Uh pretty much. So the beauty of this stable coin sense which is a stupid name but for some reason it's uh something that industry uses >> I love it. It is what it is, right? But the beauty of it that the payments stay local, right? the local rails uh are still much more quick uh much uh it's like less friction like it's much more comfortable for the local payment players to process a local payment right so if you're based in I don't know in US and you have a supplier in uh India >> instead of making an international swift transaction with FX on the way uh you can just do local on-ramping in US smooth comfortable for the banking partners most of the time

>> then you have stable you paying stable coin. You have very nice clear uh onchain proof of the transaction. You don't need this denses with a PDF proof of payment to persuade the counterparty you actually made it. No one believes you. Uh and then the local uh uh the supplier locally offer that again smooth local transaction without uh uh 3 days swift payment which you need to wait and pray that it actually lands on time. >> Yeah. Are there are there uh jurisdictions where you specialize certain local regions?

>> Right. So historically we're uh we were mostly focused on European markets and euro payments and separate transactions. We've grown uh to Middle East >> uh since we added uh AD accounts. Uh recently we added USD named accounts. So we're expanding to uh to North America. Beautiful. Uh but again it's anyone that uses USD uh is our target client. Um yeah. >> Yeah. Amazing. >> And is it just US stable coins, US dollar, or are you guys expanding into non dollar stable coins?

>> It's so Yeah, it's a great point. So, as we know, as of today, like 99.9% of stable coins are denominated in USD, which is go both like a benefit for like I said, emerging markets that want to get access to hard currency. Uh however uh what we expect is the competition uh between stable coin issuers will be increasing. The um stable coin issuers need to provide like something more than uh historical um um monopoly like you know we know who. So like we expect like things like payment infrastructure integration. We expect things like hopefully if regulatory framework will allow like yield um rewards maybe um

some different incentives cashbacks maybe we're talking about uh if we're talking about USD and if we're talking about other markets uh of course the competition arises local players in Europe are uh trying to get uh Mika compliant stable coins I'm based in Dubai and UAE so it's still like the moment when it's determined whether stable coins are crypto famous payment tokens and so on but still it's coming in place local denominated stable coins are fulfilling this uh stable coin sandwich uh in a much much better and more efficient way so we definitely expect it will grow today 99.9% are USD denominated right Mark very early days

>> keep fight keep fighting the good fight for onchain finance for stable coins it's been a great event so thank you so much go get yourself some clients out there Mark of course appreciate you coming on. >> Thank you guys. Have a great rest of your conference and a great rest of your event. All right. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you, man. >> Gentlemen and ladies of the crypto digital assets ecosystem. That is the wrap of the tokenized capital summit capital >> by Gamma Prime. Shout out to having us out guys. These guys were great hosts.

one of the best curated events that I've seen in a long time in terms of the speaker list, the attendees, everything was top-notch and they did a fantastic job from the registration all the way up to the speaker guests themselves. Couldn't have asked for a better time and really appreciate them having us out. >> Guys, you are watching the rollup typically live from the financial capital of the world. We will see you tomorrow live from the onchain summit again early around 11:00 a.m. We we'll be doing a full day push there as well. If you're watching on YouTube, hit that subscribe, hit that like. If you're on X, much love. Appreciate y'all rocking with us, man.

>> We love you guys. Thank you so much for watching and from Miami. >> We'll see you tomorrow from 305, baby. Peace.