Joseph Lubin: What's Next for ConsenSys and Ethereum

Transcript

so Joe why don't you tell me or chat for breakfast demolish petit dejeuner not prefer a that leche okay a is good I had a I had the German side breakfast piece of fried fish which is very much not not not though not the French yeah yeah hey everyone welcome to epicenter my name is citizen Fujio today we have a special episode for you as we bring you our conversation with Joe Lubin I

recorded this interview with my colleague that I get Ernst at the etherium community conference in Paris which took place in early March now it had been over a year since we last had Joe on the podcast you can check out that interview here it was a good opportunity to check in and see how he's doing I've always enjoyed talking to Joe because he's a really down-to-earth guy and he's always got some interesting insights so we discussed a number of things including the consensus reorganization or as he puts it the continual consensus reorganization we discussed his vision for interoperability between public information blockchains we talked about the prospects of governments and central bank's leveraging aetherium to issue stable coins and of course if you're in 2.0 and the challenges they have now keep in mind that we recorded this

interview in early March and that a lot has happened since then the world is a very different place now than it was three weeks ago and this got me thinking like many of you I'm sure about how the crypto community is dealing with all of this so I'd like to organize an event where we can come together and talk about these issues my goal here is pretty simple I want to create a space where people from different communities within crypto can come together leave their ideological differences at the door and talk about these issues so there's a lot of things I think that need to be discussed for one how teams are dealing with confinement of course remote work is pretty widespread in our industry but I think this crisis is forcing teams to think about new innovative ways to collaborate the other thing a lot of people's minds is

some of these assumptions that are being tested at the moment and the correlation between crypto and traditional finance and also I think it's the right time to talk about monetary policy both in crypto but also in the broader economic context governments around the world are implementing massive stimulus measures that are gonna have lasting effects on startups and on our industry so we're still in the very early stages of playing this but I did want to mention it here to gauge the interest so we set up a website where you can leave your email address and we'll keep you informed as things developed the link to that website is in the show notes but I'll mention it here it's epicenter rocks / reset everything and with that here's your interview with Joe Lubin I love that we're starting this off in

French because you know we're here at HCC and so it's and I could and I can't speak French it immediately makes this a challenging interview thanks for joining us thanks for having like you know - transparent cage for for blockchain professionals that also serves as a sauna it also serves as a quarantine box against nice yeah so you know we last spoke to you I think it was probably about a year ago I want to say feels longer than that yeah must have been 18 months yeah I mean I feel like it was around January of 2019

so I remember what we talked about blockchain maybe we did some folk like Chan yeah so yeah give us a sense of you know how how you think the ecosystem has evolved in a year which you're sort of take away on on so on the development front I think the the growth the innovation has been astonishing on the sort of speculative financial front it has pretty much continued in doldrums on the enterprise front it has been just charging it remains in exponential growth as far as we can tell so on the

development front there there still spectacularly talented people building in the industry and being drawn into the ecosystem and with respect to scalability privacy confidentiality we're seeing we have seen over the last 18 or so months massive breakthroughs that are coming online so whether it's zero knowledge techniques for privacy and confidentiality zero knowledge techniques for scalability in the form of optimistic roll-ups ZK roll-ups Stark where did sort of experiment on main net where I think they landed about 9,000

transactions per second throughput yeah it's really it's pretty incredible we are working with project called scale networks which is an EVM compatible layer 2 network solution we have a our commerce and decentralized finance team has a product and set of services called activate that is enabling us to both launch their token and facilitate some of the operation of their network and so we can launch we can still launch utility tokens so there has been much interest in tokenized Securities and we're seeing a little bit of traction

there we did the project called mattock capital there we're doing a handful of other projects with tokenized securities but we're still big fans of utility tokens utility tokens would not be considered securities by securities regulators around the world in most places and have some sort of utility in the network and we're able to help projects like scale launch because we have a deep understanding of the securities regulatory infrastructure around the world so we can help launch the token we can ensure that there's usage of the token we can ensure that there's full lifecycle monitoring security monitoring of the token we have

a another tool our Pegasus engineering group has another tool called Orca straight that as we move into a world where we have these business networks and they're effectively merged with financial infrastructure because we're tokenizing everything orchestrate can enable businesses that are operating on networks like like scales Network to manage gas and nonces and cancel transactions when they're in flight and resubmit transactions and register smart contracts etc and so those kinds of breakthroughs are bringing the technology to life effectively so it was

already pretty apparent from me onto that consensus still has a lot of different projects but consensus is being reorganized to a certain extent and can you talk about that yes consensus from day one around five years ago has been in continual reorganization a lot of the organization has been smoothes organic evolutionary we had two events where we essentially made bigger changes and those events saw us shedding from a little north of 10% in in each case job functions that effectively weren't core to what we were

as an organization so more recently we let me go back a little bit so consensus started about a year after the theorem project began it started with the the vision and mission of continuing expanding on that project and we started because it was an immature technology and there was no ecosystem or developer tooling etc we were trying to build decentralized applications but there was no infrastructure a developer tooling to enable us to do that and so we gathered a whole lot of brilliant entrepreneurs and technologists and began to explore the solution space and exploring the solution space we incubated invested in

launched way over a hundred and many of those have developed a very significant traction a real product market fit many of those did not we ran lots and lots of experiments in a pretty freewheeling culture and we're at the stage where now we have a bunch of projects that do have very significant traction these are hyper ledger Basu the Pegasus tools and products around that it's in fear its Mehta mask its viewport to Salif theyo and all of those essentially fall along what we're calling a core

tech stack so they are working increasingly closely together and and we're building effectively a what we're calling a blockchain operating system out of those pieces so in recognizing that there were some pieces that had lots of traction but didn't fit in our core tech stack and some pieces that did fit in our core tech stack over the last year we've really been sort of separating into two major functional groups within consensus and will effectively become two companies an investment company and a software company and so in that process we realized that we didn't need a massive

marketing group and and we had the ability to streamline in various other ways so there were certain regions that we weren't doing great in and on the professional services consulting side we made some significant adjustments and so we're just a much leaner much more coherent and integrated software company and the investment company is also we architected to optimize our portfolio and make new investments quit and ask about these two companies in a bit but it just before that so basically consensus has been hugely instrumental in and growing the ëthere ecosystem and there recently was a discussion on

twitter where someone said Ethier iam so ether is the contents of soakin in many ways that's extremely flattering how did you feel about that well I didn't pay attention I wasn't aware of that Twitter discussion and in a sense there's some truth to that but other than for operational needs consensus has never really held ether we are certainly aligned with a called a strong monetary policy and certainly aligned with growing the value of the etherium ecosystem a strong ether brings talent

into our ecosystem it brings attention into our ecosystem it adds security to the protocol but very directly it doesn't increase the enterprise value of consensus absolutely so the two companies you talked about earlier so if I understand correctly one of them is kind of the investment arm and I don't really want to talk about that all that much but tell us about the other company the company that builds stuff so is their token going to be associated with this how are they how all of all of these diverse diverse projects in this cool tech stack going to work together and what what what what are the thinking's on that sure so the

cortex tech company is called consensus and it is so internally we call it software Co versus invest Co and consensus is a unique organization in that it's pretty much the only company in the world that has a very sophisticated public main net solution that is full stack and also we use the exact same code as a sophisticated private permission aetherium solution when we stand up networks or enable others to to use our tooling we over the last year or so as we get more and more

integrated and integrated means that our different teams are working very closely together to create coherent documentation coherent and shared api's for four different domains of focus shared product roadmaps shared go-to-market activities when we take that into a discussion with a prospective customer we can basically offer from a coherent and optimizable solution from the protocol layer with hyper ledger Basu and and orchestrate and other tooling called Pegasus plus that enables enterprises to have the comfort support

and tools around the core protocol element to infrastructural elements so that's in fira on main net but it's also potentially in fira direct in a private permission system so pegasus and in Furyk an respond to some of the same API calls soon probably all of the same API calls we have developer tooling in the form of security audit infrastructure in the form of truffle which we work extremely closely with still Pegasus orchestrates enables us to enables people to orchestrate their transactions but also

do real-time security monitoring very suman's so that that infrastructure layer is critically important than we have identity and reputation solutions so decentralized identity verifiable credentials we we lead the decentralized identity foundation and the verify verifiable claims in credentials group with the w3c in there's meta mask the wallet which works very nicely across public in private systems it's got a a plug-in system called snaps that's enabling us to start addressing different protocols around the world and we definitely have a an increasingly active inter ledger strategy and then at the application layer we can do document management and all sorts of other

applications including tokenization so various different forms we're issuing bond in equities and municipal bonds and lots of other things and all of that we can do because going all the way back to the etherium token launch we've done a tremendous amount of legal work with securities regulators around the world and we can navigate that space with confidence and so we can deliver those solutions in a perfectly regulatory compliant fashion you met you talked about so the interchain aspect here and I'd like to ask you we're sort of taking a step back and seeing where this is going I mean there's a there's a pretty important professional services

component to consensus but you're also building technologies that are operating on the public side moving in the future how do you see so the public permissioned interactions playing out do you see permission chains moving more and more towards public networks or do you think that they'll remain sort of in their walled gardens I mean like we're seeing things already in cosmos where like already we're starting to see sort of public validators validating private blockchains their permission blockchains how do you see that playing out in the etherium yeah the the bifurcation of our ecosystem into public permission lists

and private permission was a sort of necessary ramification or circumstance that was essentially natural and caused by no enterprises what enterprises are and and what they need to be conservative about and pay attention to so we saw the same thing with the with companies adopting web technologies where they wanted to use certain protocols but they needed to use them inside firewalls in on internets until they became private enough confidential enough scalable enough back then and secure enough and so we're seeing the

same thing we we fully expect that the worldwide web will become an increasingly decentralized world wide web where it will we'll incorporate many decentralized protocols for trusted transactions on blockchain networks defer decentralized storage and bandwidth and heavy compute and proof of location decentralized identity etc that's just starting to happen I think in the enterprise of theorem Alliance is driving some of that activity we so first by using the exact same technology for consortium networks

like Congo Network that we built or Co Ventus that we're building enterprises can build out use cases in a private context and use the exact same technology the same expertise to move towards the public permissionless network we can also when a theorem is scalable private and confidential enough we can lift these systems whose logical constructs and drop them down on public main net if that makes sense do you think this will be restricted to businesses or do you think governance governments will also result with the etherium public blockchain yeah I absolutely believe that the government's will find utility on public block chains

so government sirs are sort of the platform on which businesses run and the whole world is filled with platform risk so you know we've seen platform risk in in building your solution on Facebook or on LinkedIn or on the Apple Store etc and it would be great if we moved into a world where there was less platform risk for startups but also that's platform risk for for larger organizations as we move so we've done a bunch of provenance

supply chain track and trace work we have a group called trium that is working with Procter and Gamble to put the provenance of materials and diapers in and very their P&G products on the blockchain so that a consumer can scan a QR code and see where where the materials came from all the processing steps etc supply chain tracking trays is going to be an incredibly important use case for blockchain and it's going to be especially valuable to have that on on public may not be improperly manipulated but also as we move into a world where we have different kinds of conflicts

like trade conflicts having an infrastructure that is sufficiently decentralized that even nation-states can trust that nobody is able to improperly manipulate it will enable us to take our supply chains which are currently massively interleaved and as long as we have say signatures identity for devices as long as we have good data coming in to blockchain systems then these systems are gonna be able to keep that data fairly clean and so when we do have conflicts hopefully we'll be able to still continue to trust our interleaved supply chain networks so

when I do it to government's at earlier I mean basically what what governments do is they issue currency so do you think they so do you think governments will use these it will use a theorem as a base layer to issue you know central bank issued currencies so when you're owed I yeah that's happening so I I think most governments will move to a central bank digital currency it's just a natural evolution of you know bringing technology to money systems I do believe that central banks will use similar

cryptographic primitives that are used in blockchain systems I think very few of them actually need a blockchain system in to implement a central bank digital currency I am hopeful that some of them will be interested in introducing privacy of your financial assets and confidentiality with respect to your transactions to the monetary systems of their nation-state so I think there will be some countries in the world that that value that I do think that probably the world would put will put pressure on those governments or central banks so that they'll say ok you can have your

citizenry appreciates privacy and confidentiality in free markets and stuff like that and so we will be comfortable if you know Holdings under certain size or transactions under a certain amount can be perfectly confidential or private there there are certainly other countries that will continue to use technology as a surveillance tool and they don't need blockchain to to do a really good job on that so so do you think that so some countries will sort of position themselves as as many do now as sort of

fiscal paradise right like where but you know moving moving towards the future you'll have digital currencies that preserve privacy and this sort of thing and others that have like made me more kyc less privacy and a sure thing so we're just talking about nation-state issued money and technology is moving so fast it's people are going to be able to do very impressive things that enable real privacy and confidentiality on on these networks but with respect to nation-state currency I think there will be some countries that distinguish themselves so christian carlo formerly of the CFTC has been so he's driving

thought leadership around central bank digital currencies and he feels like the united states to the extent that it upholds principles of freedom in privacy in free markets etc is a place where because of rule of law and because of how things are constructed with respect to the Constitution and the law in the United States it may be a place that creates a really good version of a central bank digital currency it may be a place where you know certain protections will apply always the optimist yeah I I just think it's really interesting cuz cuz when he mentioned

that to me I was like yeah maybe America could create something that's pretty good it's not gonna be what crypto anarchists appreciate of what can be built on these networks but I think there lots so we should have choice we should have optionality in our monetary systems and our payment systems and central bank or you know nation-states and central banks have certain responsibilities and they have the right to issue their own tokens basically and they have the right to create the rules around those tokens and their citizenry should work with their leadership and take a look at the what's

available in the different technologies and make their best choice and you know some nation states will make choices that I wouldn't make but that they're free to do that yeah you know I tend to agree I said I think despite the fact that people always some people sometimes Peck the US as the surveillance state I mean in here indeed it is it is a nation state that values privacy a lot more than other countries so for instance in the European Union in some countries you can't transact you're not allowed to do transactions over a thousand euros in in in cash and in America of course that that's completely fine so uh yeah I

would I would tend to be we'll see how it goes and nation-states especially ones as big as America are just so many different factions so many competing interests and we'll see what ends up winning out yeah I mean I want to talk a little bit about sort of the evolving states of aetherium and you know by that I mean some of the evolving narratives in the space and I think you know every time we have one of these conversations that narrative maybe shifts a little bit so you know at the very beginning there was this idea of the world computer and then from that there was a period where aetherium was sort of the you know the the funding machine so it didn't start with the

world computer what did it start with sofe italic wrote the white paper because he was working with some different projects and way back then 7 even 8 years ago people were interested in creating their own crypto currencies and so one way to do that would be to take the Bitcoin code base and fork it and change the parameter or two and make litecoin or something along those lines and despite the fact that that sounds really quick and easy it would take a month several months to take just do that little thing and that doesn't even include setting up a whole ecosystem and incentivizing people to care about this

thing that you care about and so the Telex initial interest was build something that was general enough so that somebody could start their own cryptocurrency on the same platform and benefit from the the already built infrastructure right okay okay so I'm taking shortcuts here but I mean we've gotten to a point now where defy is sort of the prevailing narrative in the space I'd like to get your thoughts as sort of like you know what what kind of what kind of what is the future narrative in any theory I'm like what word is where does it go from here essentially so I think all the narratives are valid simultaneously sova Telex initial narrative is still very

valid we create lots of digital assets whether they're sort of cryptocurrency like or equities or bonds or utility tokens or identity and so certainly the world computer narrative is an interesting one I think the world computer is going to be something called the world wide web and it'll get increasingly decentralized as we incorporate more of these protocols we for the web we had a couple decades of Internet of information protocols so you know free to use protocols where the

information was infinitely copyable and no cheap and now we have new protocols where the information shouldn't necessarily be infinitely copyable and some of this information is actually quite valuable and now we we've got a few decades ahead of us to explore those different protocols and so the narrative that I see is a much bigger narrative it's it's essentially building out the global or RER katenka kana me on a base trust foundation which new to be maximally decentralized or will be corrupted by patient well-resourced actors on that we need a financial plumbing layer and a lot of those early

internet magic money lego defy protocols are being built on a theorem there's some being built in other places and even bitcoin is being wrapped in moved over to a theorem to to participate in the the open decentralized finance ecosystem so all of that represents financial plumbing that includes insurance and prediction markets and decentralized exchanges and certain kinds of lending approaches over collateralized under collateralized flash etc and you know automated portfolio management so so many of these these different protocols can now be

snapped together or wired together into a financial infrastructure that will be usable by banks and central banks but also these same tools will be useable to people and so it's very similar to the the web revolution where publishing was suddenly usable by normal people and whole industries built up around that and so we've got base a new base trust foundation and a new financial infrastructure for the planet that we can all participate in and that we can all carry around in our pocket effectively that we can all program and on top of that the the world companies and governments can react attack their

systems on a better set of foundations ok there's many legos forever if we're so no it's not money Legos so money Legos represents an enabling layer an enabling financial layer it's not about building the financial layer you know the the world probably didn't set out to build the financial system the world set out to you know make food and make shelter and make transportation and make clothing etc and you need financial plumbing in order to efficiently get all that done and so what we're building right now is I think the financial planning and all of the

industries the existing ones and novel industry that we probably can't quite fathom yet will be able to react attacked or architect themselves on that platform mmm I mean we didn't set out to build the financial system yes yeah we did with with all it's necessary and yeah it was with all of its flaws and all of its advantages also that's also pretty remarkable it's also pretty remarkable yes but you know given given that new theory I'm smart contracts defy allows anyone with you know the ability to code and soon the ability to drag and drop things in a browser to create a no code is getting really interesting no

code is getting interesting indeed since since defy enables anyone with a computer to create a financial instrument and and to to make that available to the world you know what are some of the perverse aspects that you that you think we need to be mindful of and perhaps you know not to replicate or even worse than some of the perverse aspects of the existing financial system so I'm not going to harp on perverse aspects I think the way that I view that always the optimist well my perspective is that yeah it's gonna be the Wild West it's gonna be crazy wonderful and whether it's there been so many years of

new technology I would call no banks and safes and stagecoaches that transported money a new technology and every new era has its builders and its breakers its its consultants its self-appointed consultants that see a system that see value there that see vulnerabilities there and that essentially extract its fees in order for pointing out how the system can be a little bit better and so this you know the open programmable financial system which enables people to touch the financial rails the live

financial rails directly program value tokens that move along those rails directly they're going to be a lot of pitfalls there but it's also when we get a hold of it when we prudently build it out in probably layers it's going to be incredibly empowering a virtually everything in society so if I were forced to make recommendations I would recommend to all the different groups that are building a financial protocols to go slowly to move as prudently as possible to recognize that because they're in a composable synergistic

ecosystem anything that they do potentially affects everything else so even if you formally verify security audit the logic and the contract and the byte codes you're still potentially gonna make a change in your little system and your little like Lego block that represents a tool or a vulnerability that somebody can exploit in in some other part of the system and so we're gonna need to get everybody together to take a systemic or systemic view on how all this works together and I think I think that ecosystem is realizing that it needs to move slowly

if you had to venture a guess right now what the most surprising thing that will happen in the ecosystem in 2020 is what would you guess be most exciting thing that will happen in 21st oh okay first first let me just continue or finish off what I was saying we're already making progress in that direction so with the the token launch boom and I cos we started a project called true set and Masari started up to basically crowdsource awareness of what these different ICO projects protocols etc we're doing so all the critical information that you really need we have a project called

defy score that is it's an open-source project it's crowdsourcing all the different criteria that we should be paying attention to for all these different protocols so that work is already underway so to your question the most surprising thing that I expect to see in the next 20 years oh-o-oh until the end of 2020 so I don't know that I would be surprised by it but I think this year we'll see definitively that enterprises and perhaps even governments find value in public maenette blockchain systems and we'll

start to very actively use them is that are you sensing that from conversations that you're having like I'm curious how the conversation has changed in the last two or three years with governments and and enterprise in the survey so as I said it near the start of the podcast we haven't seen enterprise slowdown at all through all the the crypto winter which applied to speculators you know buying and selling tokens on public main net Enterprise has continued to take a studied approach to the technology and so we've been working with major financial institutions major consumer product institutions energy companies

building out consortium the the congo trade finance consortium network that we built has major financial institutions and energy companies in it and it's seen over a billion dollars worth of transactions and so the ability to digitize which doesn't require blockchain but blockchain is a trigger for many businesses and industries to to engage in digital digital the ability to cooperate in a trustful context with those that you compete with or you know value chains that that's a massive breakthrough in how business

says can architect themselves so the first thing they're doing is experimenting in context that they can have good control over and so we're now seeing systems built where error reduction we're double keying where reconciliation all those things just go away because everybody's sitting on this single shared source of truth they're sitting on basically the same database system whole industries can make use of the same database system well they can trust each other because they're writing protocols that that effectively confine and facilitate their behavior and so yes and we're talking with lots of

enterprises we're building with lots of enterprises and it's interesting that you know Thank You Facebook you did something really wonderful for once exactly Facebook's always thinking about the benefit of humanity and so they introduced this Libre project just to wake central banks up basically to wake commercial banks up to wake wake up people who are interested in building alternative money systems and alternative payment systems and so I like the structure of Libre I don't like wouldn't like it if Facebook was driving Libre still because it would have implications for monetary policy for

small and medium sized nations but lots of different projects like Libre are very exciting in providing choice and essentially the the world is waking up just as the world woke up to the internet and web technologies now enterprise and government world so let's look ahead now there there there are several things upon us one one of the big things is happening in aetherium is the shefter a theorem 2.0 it's been talked about for some time now I'm curious to get your thoughts on what you think are the biggest challenges ahead for the ecosystem with regards to

rolling out these 2.0 so I could be on so if any level of you know from technical challenges to regulatory challenges to sort of community governance challenges give us your thoughts on work yep so aetherium 2.0 is going extremely well consensus has the team shift around but we got at least six teams working on different aspects of the development to the protocol research and rolling out of aetherium - I I like to think about it in terms of evolution of platforms so evolution of the x86 architecture

evolution of the Mac operating system it's very similar both of them actually they're there interestingly different the x86 architecture had to maintain rigorous compatibility from generation to generation and I think that slows the evolution that slows for our listeners you're talking about sort of the evolution of computing and the the 386 processor is 486 processor is yeah yeah thank you and so on and so you because you had to keep all this structure around you couldn't totally reaaargh attack the system the Mac operating system evolved differently so when when

it moved from Mac OS 9 to Mac OS 10 it was basically the next computer system reverse taking over the Apple company and went from this single threaded operating system to this UNIX base to know our marvel of technology and what they were able to do was enable people who wrote Mac OS 9 programs to just run those programs in emulation on Mac OS 10 and if you wanted to upgrade your program you could start using these other libraries and move to a multi multi threaded etc and so that's that is what aetherium is doing Universal apps I think is what they were called yeah yeah

yeah so so you could have both code bases inside that is exactly what the a theorem ecosystem is doing it is starting fresh designing an optimized awesome etherium - and it will enable a theorem one applications to continue to operate if if them one applications want to make use of new features they'll then they'll be able to upgrade the really interesting thing about all of that is that well these are separate systems if they're in one and a theorem 2 there will be a smooth progression from a theorem 1 to a theorem 2 and a theorem 1 enables a theorem to so there will be all these

bridges built so first we're gonna see staking that enables on a theorem one that enables the beacon chain the heartbeat of a theorem to to be stood up so that that's almost certainly that's very likely to get landed in the first half of this year so beacon chain there are three major phases phase zero one and two beacon chain is phase zero that happens within a small number of months enabled by a theorem one once that happens we can see two things we can see bridges back to a theorem one enabling ether to move back and forth but we can also see blocks on a theorem two finalized blocks on a theorem one making

if you're in one much more secure and therefore enabling the issuance of ether to be reduced the next phase in the theorem two is adding sixty four data shards so massive increase in the amount of available data on blockchain the first good user of aetherium two data shards is a theorem one smart contracts and so we're seeing all these layer two solutions optimistic roll-up zero knowledge roll-ups that need a ton of data and so they're gonna be able essentially smart contracts on a theorem one are gonna be able to access massive amounts of data on a theorem to the next phase is execution environment so we've

got the quilt team within consensus that are already building execution environments and where it got specs for phase one and specs for Phase two so all three major protocols have well Richard specks we're gonna build several different kinds of execution environments and we will see it won't launch for real in 2020 but we'll see developers will understand different ways of programming for a theorem 2 before the end of this year and so we'll release some execution environments when all of that is landed sometime it sometime next year if theorem 1 essentially becomes an execution environment on at vrm 2 and so

it will effectively be you know there will be a checkpoint in time and it will be able to migrate into the theorem 2 context at that point it's likely to be able to use lots of different data shards but probably all of its state will sit on one data shard of a theorem - and so smooth transition we will work to make sure that developers as Apple Computer did developers have a smooth upgrade experience you know technology that's an interesting analogy companies have been you know paying attention to developer experience for a long time and we're not gonna do dumb things like break composability I think we can wrap

it up and I think we're not going to do done things like great composability