Is IST the DAI of Cosmos? | Inter Protocol

Transcript

you mentioned incentivizing minting mechanisms they've sort of thought about it as incentivizing the end state so incentivizing the use of ists somewhere on some external chain which then pulls through demand for minting right so as there's some new Decks that launches or listing on a lending facility then that that will drive more supply of IST to get minted to go farm those tokens so it's really kind of pulling everything through and driving all activities all right everyone welcome back to another episode of zero X research this show is presented by Chain Alice's in Flipside uh we're recording this episode on January 30th we have a great interview on IST a cosmos native

stablecoin built on a gorick by the inter-protocol uh and our guests for this episode are zucky Yusuf amrani and Rowland who is the product director of inter-protocol at agoric and so before we get into this interview we are going to break down the latest Market happenings with Westie and effort Capital so effort I'll throw it to you first who do you get on the hot seat this week yeah sure thanks uh so my first Hot Seat are bitcoiners um not all of them but there's a specific subset of bitcoiners that are looking to censor transactions on the Bitcoin network uh so it would just discussed over this weekend but I guess there was a design quirk in Taproot which was a Bitcoin upgrade done in 2021 uh that allowed Limitless Bitcoin data

storage up to the block size um there was a project called ordinals uh that was able to I guess exploit this the Taproot upgrade um and it just went live this month and it codified and is allowing users to actually store nfts short videos and PDFs like fully on chain on the Bitcoin Network um and there's some OG bitcoiners that feel that nft transactions are are illegitimate uh don't align with the Bitcoin ethos there potentially can increase gas costs and stop from Bitcoin uh certain Bitcoin transfers from actually uh being included in the next media block uh in particular Adam back who's like an OG one of the oldest bitcoiners back in the day and the CEO of block stream um he's actually on Twitter saying that

he he encourages Bitcoin miners to actually censor uh certain nft transfers on the Bitcoin Network um and if you look at the history of Adam back he's actually like a censorship resistance Maxi uh back in like the late 90s um and mid 90s you actually can find him selling T-shirts that had RSA cryptographic code printed on them uh and that code was actually seen in the eyes of US government as like a weapon um and he was doing this to kind of protest the US government from uh censoring cryptography export regulations so I think it's really interesting the kind of mental gymnastics that bitcoiners are doing on one hand they want to be censorship resistant hard censorship resistant uh money on the other hand they want also

censor uh specific types of transactions on the network yeah this this one is really funny I think that they they deserve a seat in the hot seat this week because at the end of the day everyone knows that Bitcoin has a transaction fee problem and this could potentially alleviate some of that although I do understand wanting to mitigate State growth and making it harder for full nodes to to actually operate because right now you can do that on a Raspberry Pi and if this becomes a regular thing then ultimately it could hurt bitcoin's decentralized nature so I get the rebuttal but at the same time like it's an open source network if people want to build things they're gonna build it and that's just the way it goes there's nothing you can really do about it unless you want to make a core change to

the protocol yeah I don't know I think there's irony in the fact that nfts could kind of fix the fee problem for Bitcoin right so uh you know it's been heavily discussed that Bitcoin as a network over subsidizes the amount of transaction volume it gets and the fees are failing to make up a substantial portion of the minor revenue of course the habiting every four years structurally decreases that but the beauty of the four-year mechanism is that it's quite a long time before that really becomes a problem but it's about like addressing what will solve this problem rather than thinking like oh it's not going to be a problem so I don't know I I'm not too bullish on the idea that like nfts are really going to be what saves the day here but I don't know that would be a great plot twist if

it did come true I mean I doubt that nfts actually become a big use case of Bitcoin I do think maybe in the meantime there's some trolls that might you know make some big nft projects and try and uh attack the network in some sort of way but at the same time like this is why ethereum is great it's like it's turn complete it's really made for anything to be built whereas Bitcoin had this like one minor upgrade in top route where essentially now you can do this and there's really nothing they can do right and so yeah it's really interesting like the design standpoint and like I do think nfts would stay in ethereum and this isn't really a long-term issue but it is is kind of funny like the different design models there I think I read somewhere that

um I think I read on Eric Wells uh Twitter Thread about the ordinals nft project he uploaded Trump nft cards to the Bitcoin Network and I think he said that his transaction was actually the largest transaction done on the Bitcoin network uh since 2016 which is pretty nuts anything about that yeah that's absolutely crazy I know none of us are like super in the weeds of Bitcoin like we kind of watch it and you know respect it in its place as king but it like this actually probably is one of the more interesting things that has happened to the Bitcoin Network in the last two or three years outside of Taproot so it's kind of funny that uh it's not really all over our timeline but it is very significant something to watch closely and to kind of stick with the same vein of Bitcoin but you know not not quite

but uh who I got in the hot seat this week is uh James prestwich the founder of nomad Nomad Bridge which is a cosmos-based chain that was trying to bring Bitcoin into the cosmos ecosystem he posted a sub stack and a following a Twitter thread um kind of calling out layer zero for a potential vulnerability in their model um and you know the reason why I put them in the hot seat whether or not he's right or wrong here is mostly because he kind of just came at layer zero out of nowhere on Twitter and opposed allegedly didn't even like try to reach out to the layer zero team uh prior to posting this uh yet six months ago seven months ago in August of 2022 his project had a 200 million dollar Bridge hack so uh hot seat for just kind of going out there

screaming at other people when in reality maybe you know I got we gotta be working on the things that you're building before you go calling out other people but basically his message was you know there's like a trust issue with layer zero because uh the model that layers here uses has both an Oracle and a relayer which are basically you can think of as two separate security systems and they're very customizable so you can make those two systems whatever you you as the application prefer but the default setting is using two systems that layer zero itself has control over so you know if you were going to build a bridge for example you would most certainly want to take over one at least one of those two systems the Oracle or the relayer to make sure that nobody can compromise your Bridge given that that

is uh it tends to be something that holds a lot of value but the default settings in into what Brian from layer Zero's responses the default settings are there so people can easily access the layer 0 technology spin up some application that maybe doesn't have a huge huge reason to pour a ton of capital into but they can like experiment with the technology build Bridges between different chains or or just communicate between chains send messages and things of that nature without like having to go build your own security design system and really kick start the use of layer zero so kind of interesting that you know yes you didn't try to deny that this wasn't true or anything he's just saying if you are going to build an application that's going to hold a lot of value using layer 0 then yes of course you would want to

take the Oracle and spin that into a security model that you feel meets the standards that that you need but maybe for an example of something I wouldn't need that is like um you know let's say you're just like passing nfts across Two Chains It's like you know low value gaming nfts like you know you probably don't need some Custom Security model here that's going to be super expensive uh if what you're what you're doing on chain really it doesn't have a lot of value behind it I think all these Bridge protocol founders should not be pointy fingers at each other uh especially with if you look at it like almost all the hacks all the large hacks that have happened over the past cycle are all Bridge related um they should all be working together to figure out like what is the right solution for the industry moving forward

especially when you have someone like Circle launching their own centralized cross chain uh Bridge solution cctp that is the real competitor that every decentralized bridge solution General messaging uh protocol really needs to be worrying about they shouldn't be worrying about each other they really need to kind of I think build together and really just move this industry forward um especially with cross messaging and bridging really being the weakness the weak point of the crypto ecosystem today yeah that's a great angle to come from an effort I strongly agree with you I like at the end of the day like everyone on our side of the Rope is working towards a decentralized future and on the other side you know you have a centralized entity that's actually bringing a solution to Market that is

going to have extremely good product Market fit and that's like kind of scary we talked about it last week you know there's there's potential for kyc uh hopping between chains and and yeah so I agree I mean you see it too with the roll-up teams they're always you know bickering back and forth around who's actually open source who's you know furthest along in the the zkevm race so it'd be nice if uh we could all just get along yeah and even if there wasn't a vulnerability here which I don't think there was like like you said there's been so many Bridge hacks in the past and it's just an obvious like place of vulnerability for funds and yeah you mentioned the the circle chain as a competitor that's coming as well as just IBC making its way out of the cosmos as

well as l3s basically having hyper Bridges as you could say that aren't really bridges that are much more secure I wonder sort of what are the future of these Bridges what do they look like synapse sort of an interest interesting example because they're sort of evolving into a layer two and trying to do make like a cross chain amm things along those lines which maybe does throw a lot of other Layer Two or a lot of other Bridges go uh where they sort of have to to Pivot from being a bridge where there's a lot of hacks and maybe becoming something else and so yeah I think as we go forward like the bridge sector is going to be a really interesting one to watch uh especially a circle uh has their their cross chain transfer yeah definitely agree with you

there Westy and I wonder if like the Sam to your point about the the roll-up team is always going back and forth is this something that we're just like noticing more now given it's like a bear market and there's less exciting you know in your face number pumps uh and things of that nature that really draw your attention in or or is there truly just like maybe everyone's bored and feels like they need to be yelling at each other these days I'm from the perspective of the the roll-up teams honestly I think they're all just a bunch of nerds like us and like they're really in it for the tech so like they're really passionate about it like because you know in the Altair one season you saw everyone just bickering at each other they're like oh like Solana's at an all-time high or Avalanche is at an all-time high this

partnership that partnership like it was much more just price action driving the fight but here it's it's funny because it's just people who love ethereum and are just trying to do their best to scale it and of course it gets heated over ideals and philosophies that are held across these different teams yeah that's a great point a lot of the bickering is like super technical I was talking about like light nodes and full nodes and like different things along those lines where it shows like just the intellectual capabilities of these Founders and like where their heads are at um so yeah it's definitely a lot better of like debate than you see um that we had in the Bull Run yeah I think that's a good spot to end that one we covered it well but I I'll take the uh the cool throne here at the first one

of the week uh GMX bag holders they uh entered price discovery on GMX over the weekend and today is Monday this will come out on Wednesday so in two days and the Market's choppy right now to down so I doubt that'll hold true but I just find it amazing that these people have been earning 5 to 10 percent just an eth not even including the escrow GMX rewards over the course of the entire bear market and now they're like native token that they're staking with is is in price Discovery so that's pretty remarkable really big Testament to the the design of the GMX tokenomics um and they also have synthetics rolling out here pretty soon so last week I highlighted gns and that wound up being a pretty good call it went on like a nice 50 60 run but uh with them rolling out synthetics

um I think it's going to be a huge competitor to to gains Network considering their model is is really Capital efficient they're able to support a wide range of asset classes and long tail assets because of its synthetic nature so I think with all of the tvl that's that's in glp for uh GMX traders to trade against I think this could be a serious competitor and narrative over the next month or two as they roll it out nice self call on the uh the gns trade there but but walk us through like the synthetics model is this give you the ability to bring like uh like I know gains Network one of their biggest uh they're most heavily traded assets or the the Forex assets they have does that give you the ability to kind of replicate that with the synthetic synthetic assets or what is

that what does that Dynamic really bring for GMX yeah I was reading the docs a little bit earlier but to be honest I haven't kept up with it super closely all I know is that they're isolating pools against different synthetic assets so you're going to need separate LPS from glp because they don't want to kind of make more systemic risk there with you know you have so many projects building on top of glp already and they've already built such a cash cow protocol it's like why add more layers of risk here so I do need to dive deeper into the docs but uh I believe that a portion of all revenue from synthetics trading will flow some to GMX takers but a majority of LPS similar to the glp GMX design as is in place today um but yeah aside from that I'm not

super sure on the exact implementation of the synthetics yeah I know synthetics as a protocol has really shot away from making stocks to synthetics so I wonder if GMX goes the same route I'm not sure if that has to do with having docs Founders or whatnot but I'd certainly love to be able to trace more stocks in the blockchain I think that's just like an obvious use case that doesn't really exist but yeah going back to your first point Sam I think this really comes down to like the marrying of product Market fit and a really good token design for both G and S and GMX like I have my qualms with how GMX is designed for like the long term I think in order book model or this actual price Discovery makes more

sense but in the short term I think they've done a really great job in garnering that product Market fit and really creating a community around all their products as well as having a token that people can actually invest in and feel good about and like you said earn like a good amount of yield and so I think you really need more applications like this to really focus on well first of all product Market fit for people that are actually using their app as well as mirroring that with like a really good token design and really thinking that through yeah strong agree I'm actually writing a report right now to the listeners I know you guys already know but it's going to be kind of looking at the correlation between price action and fee Revenue generation at the DAP layer but then I'm also going to be

looking at the layer ones kind of like ethereum and the amount of burn per day okay so that should be interesting I suspect there won't be much uh correlation between the l1s and the the dapps will have some correlation but obviously with the volatility it'll it'll probably be relatively weak but excited to uh to let that one go next week yeah I think that's a good segue into my uh cool Throne this week which is John Charbonneau I hope that I'm pronouncing that right but former Analyst at Delphi digital now with his own firm DBA he released a model uh for ethereum this week I don't know if you guys got to see that and play around with it but it was really really cool um I mean it basically looked at both the the supply Dynamics and the revenue dynamics of ethereum and mapped it over

time but was super interesting about this one first of all was I mean the formatting is super pretty any Trad five person who's looking at the success she just loving it um but second is it married both of his skill sets I mean in Excel but also like his ability to understand each road map like both in the next few years and like many years down the line and so he was able to include revenue from both data availability and from the execution layer with DEA he was able to incorporate proto-dink sharding and dang sharding and like their actual technical abilities of those two as well as in an enshrine roll-up which is like a plan way down the future where the execution layer of ethereum will actually become

an enshrined roll-up within the protocol and basically be a ZK AVM which is basically enabled by dank sharding which is really Technical and most people wouldn't even think of to include that in a model whereas um John was able to and he has a lot of optimistic assumptions in this model I mean the price goes out to 2032 and he has it at 69 420 which I mean of course you got to put the meme in there but uh definitely over the optimistic and yeah if you guys get a chance I would definitely play around with the numbers there yeah well for sure link this model in the show now it's his incredible absolute shout out to John for this one we'll have to try to convince him to come on the Pod at some point but uh Wesley any like major takeaways from

this like uh and maybe specifically as it pertains like inflation throughout the throughout uh his prediction period yeah I mean I didn't really look at the supply numbers I was more so looking at the revenue numbers specifically when it comes to like the new upgrades but his his assumptions had the supply at like a two percent deflation um through like through 2032 which I think is a pretty optimistic assumption given that I think a lot of transactions will end up in Roll-Ups um but yeah I mean if he's right that's obviously extremely bullish eth I think I personally think in the long term it's the supply becomes pretty even maybe

like slightly inflationary but certainly a lot better than it was an underproof work so that two percent number is pretty interesting because just recently I was like thinking through what will the next bull cycles potential deflation rate look like just given you know we're relatively flat right now and it's pretty much Max Payne in this scenario like on-chain activity came as close to dying as it was going to come in my opinion in the foreseeable future and it didn't and again we were at like 0.01 inflation uh annualized and so I was like okay well if we look at the last Bull Run let's find the 90-day period with the absolute most activity on chain what were the base fees over that time and then let's map that onto the proof of stake ethereum world where issuance

is much lower uh and so that 90-day period was sometime around the October and November time frame of of 2021 and I mapped that onto the current supply model and you're like annualizing that figure gets you around like 2.8 inflation so that's kind of interesting that he's basically predicting a very busy Network going out into this period but you know that'll be interesting because a two percent deflation rate is like massive right you think about uh like traditional economies in the physical world today you know they look for a positive two percent as like a healthy figure so like kind of like walking through what the Dynamics of this and these new digital economies will be with a base asset that is likely to be deflationary it's like really

interesting mental exercise to kind of walk through yeah I think that's it I I totally agree with you Dan it's like it's tough to project you know what the ultimate burn is going to be but you do think you know today you log on you look at the burn Leaderboard on your Dune Dash that you built and you can pretty much guarantee it's going to be uniswap open C potentially blur some random entertainment and maybe some random dog token that just launched like in the future there's going to be such a more wide array of of applications and l2s utilizing ethereum for you know whether it's consensus settlement data availability Etc so really excited to see how that plays out but also just to the people listening I really really

highly recommend checking out this spreadsheet because even myself who spends so much time in ethereum there's things in here that I'm like trying to back into in order to understand how John was thinking and like it's just helping me understand the actual ethereum protocol even more than I already did before so can't recommend it enough like definitely check it out and try and back your way into to kind of the assumptions that John made I think they're like the next iteration of this spreadsheet which I commented on when he tweeted it out and commented on his thread um so I think the staking yelled that he has there for the most part is like six and a half to seven and a half percent yields year over year which is mind-boggling right that's huge if if possible um but I think like that that amount of

yield would definitely incentivize more stickers to kind of flooded flood in which would increase the the issuance dilute the yield and also change the net issuance overall from like two two and a half percent uh net deflation to still a deflationary of like negative one and a half percent or somewhere on that order of magnitude uh but I think like the next you know instance of this spreadsheet is actually creating like a dynamic um yield to staking rate Supply where if the stake if the yield gets over certain threshold you would assume that people are going to flood into state to catch capture that yield uh and then obviously if yield goes below a certain threshold it's gonna you know flow out the other way but I think long term I think Justin Drake like the the predominant eth

researcher was really big on on the whole merge and the long-term calculations have like a long-term Assumption of about four to four and a half percent long-term yield which I mean today is relatively in line with U.S treasuries but um I think it's gonna be interesting to see really how like how all these assumptions play out over the next decade yeah Justin's got to run for his money here because his projection sheet is like kind of more like yeah I'll choose this number I'll choose this number and John's is like literally like all right you got proto-dink shark Bank sharding this that and the others so uh that's pretty funny to watch John uh kind of continue to develop as a ethereum researcher but Dan I can kick it over to you if you want to pull up that uh flip side chart of the day if

you're ready for that yeah for sure as I'm getting that pulled up though um you know you mentioned one thing that I thought was really interesting is like yeah the burn leaderboard uh and what I find super super exciting about that is stablecoin smart contracts tend to be pretty high up the board on on the daily burn as well as the all-time burn uh so you know I think the the current leader right now I don't have the dashboard up in front of me unfortunately but I'm pretty sure it's the the last open C contract the wyvern exchange contract um by a pretty good margin but on that to all-time top five uh tether is on there and that's like one of one of the things I think is most exciting about uh it's just smart Contracting Platforms in general is that they don't have to use

their like you can send value in other forms of assets right like you think about Bitcoin to send you a million dollars say I might have to literally send you a million dollars in Bitcoin and then pay that Bitcoin transaction fee and the beauty of ethereum is I can send you a million dollars in whatever token you please and pay the ethereum transaction fee in eth um so yeah just something that I'm like always really excited to see is smart contracts that are like you know value based so in this case stable coins kind of like leading the way and being uh valuable players in the ethereum ecosystem so this dashboard here is built by abbess ra 21 and it's on the evolution of Solana so you know Solana's definitely had its ups and downs over its life cycle just as most startups and

most blockchains do as well but what I think is really interesting here is you know in a time when we see like defies down significantly in terms of swamp volumes down and if we go over to like things like nfts then we still see kind of that same Trend right there's a bit of an uptick over the over the beginning of the year uh and with this kind of like Echo bubble or you know potential Kickstart of a new bull market if they're in that camp um and we've seen some more activity but it's been dying off kind of in the last week or two and that's that's true across D5 it's true across nfts but when you go look at development in the ecosystem you know we're looking at uh the number of upgrade uh programs Ryan as well as new programs counting so

we're still seeing that consistent trend of developer activity so it's kind of interesting to see that you know while you might see see some of these use cases kind of dying off um you know it's still a good indication that we Solana has a strong health and a strong ecosystem around it and you know ultimately developers are what pull in users to a blockchain because there needs to be uses for uh you know those users to interact with so I think it's a cool takeaway here and a cool thing to flag here is this is actually flipside's new UI for their dashboarding so it's also like a coding environment and you can code within this environment but they also allow you to build dashboards just as their old UI did as well personally I found these dashboards much easier to interact with so it's a huge

upgrade in my opinion they look a little cleaner easier to interact with you can like hover over these you know different parts of the chart to get some reactions within the charge which is great to see as well and a great example of that is looking at the um the event numbers from all these different D5 protocols and you can literally see the rise of open book which is like the serum the decentralized version of serum in a post FTX world like you can immediately see that starting to become a very core piece of the Solana D5 ecosystem so again you know shout out to Flipside for making these things possible getting in here and working with the data is just getting easier and easier as their new UI gets built out I believe they're deprecating the old UI at the end of

February so coming up on having to just make that pivot over the this new interactive way to kind of parse blockchain data and they also recently launched their decoded log stables for ethereum mainnet so you can literally look at any piece of information that comes on chain and digest it in a very very easy way so if you're looking to break into this we have a a uh about we're running a bounty right now with it gives you the ability to earn some free usdc so hop into the show notes take a look at that and we'd love to get your your take on anything you want to see when it comes to flip side as well so feel free to shoot us a DM on Twitter either Sam or myself or the Xerox research account we'll be happy to kind of break down anything that you guys are

excited to see in the future yeah I also want to take a second to thank our other wonderful sponsor chain analysis they are uh one of the leading crypto analytics providers that are helping provide the tools that our industry needs to actually Thrive and grow Banks web 2 companies be it tech industry supply chain whatever it is they all need to understand better how blockchains actually work and chain analysis is the company that's trying to get them on chain and actually help participate in in moving the blockchain industry forward they also just released a new product called storyline which is basically just a simplified way to visualize on-chain analytics which I've found really useful for for my own personal use they also just dropped a new research report which is a notable wallets of hackers and how they've been

moving their funds across chains since the hacks that were carried out in 2022. so we can link to all that in the show notes but again I cannot stress enough to go check out chain analysis they are one of the leading crypto analytics providers and you'd be missing out if you didn't awesome all right well now we will get to our interview on the IST stable coin and inner protocol alrighty everyone welcome back we are joined by Zaki Yusuf and Roland to talk all things inner protocol and the IST stablecoin now Roland is the agork product director and Yusuf is the contributor to the one of the contributors to the cosmos Hub and sits on the economic committee for the inter protocol uh itself and Zaki is the the omnipresent being of the cosmos ecosystem we're a pleasure to have him

back and really excited to kind of dive into uh you know what is IST and kind of like how that fully Maps out into the cosmos ecosystem so I'd love to get a little bit a bit of a brief intro on a gork itself and before we dive into inner protocol and IST so maybe I'll throw that one to you Roland sure uh so hey everybody uh uh agoric is a layer one chain in in Cosmos and uh we are driving a smart Contracting in JavaScript and so that is the highest level possible description um it's a whole lot of additional work that goes into making that kind of smart Contracting possible a lot of security layers um and and ways to bring large groups of

mainstream developers into the ecosystem um IST or inter-protocol is the the first product that's launching on top of the gorick which is both sort of integral to the functioning of the edork chain but also a product for the broader Cosmos ecosystem fantastic and um you know when we think about IST itself the first thought that comes to mind for me is like okay over collateralize stablecoin we see this a similar model to use in by by maker now so can we let's start like peeling back the layers of the inner inner protocol itself and getting deeper into IST so Yusuf as a member of the economic committee I'd love to kind of get your your take on what IST is and why it's important to the cosmos ecosystem yeah so I think like I see what what we aim to to do

with this with this table token is basically to to become uh the to be to become to Cosmos what die is is uh is to ethereum so a fully collateralized stable coin with the you know minimum minimum minimal price volatility so it flows into the cosmos through the the IBC messaging standard um and what's interesting is that we have a use case from the get-go uh because IST is used to pay gas fees on agorix so for now um you know we have a few apps but like going forward I think it's going to be like uh uh a driver in in basically generating fees uh we're still very

early stage uh we launched uh last September I think it was uh yeah um last September end of September actually and uh right now we're in the phase one uh of the launch which is uh the the packs.avichi module so we have currently three assets uh each asset has two Bridge versions so usdc usdt and die so the bridges are uh axillary and and gravity Bridge um and so after that uh we're launched pretty soon actually like next month or early March we're gonna launch uh vaults uh where basically you can mint IST to deposit the deposit of an over

collateralized uh IBC asset position uh could be atom for example um and for the liquidation uh on vaults we what we use is a is basically a Dutch auction um so yeah exactly maybe you want to add something on on this yeah I I'll I'll I'll what I'll what I want to do is characterize the decision to launch with the parody stability module as like a technical risk management strategy which was um there is a lot of technology that had never been run uh in a money moving setting um in the PSM release including like the entire agoric uh VM which is like 200

000 lines of JavaScript um it is a very sophisticated system for like isolating smart contract execution in JavaScript the integration between the cosmos SDK the IVC layer uh the like the wallet handling Kepler signing layer all of these things have been in development for basically three I like I've been I've been basically working with the or a team on these things for three years um and so these things have been long in development um and then but so while it was a risk management system it's also interesting because right now what we're seeing in Cosmos is acute like a big Divergence and representations of stable coins um so

like right now there's almost as much usdc bridged over axillar as there is over the gravity Bridge resulting in two distinct representations of usdc um while I am working with the Noble Team on the native Cosmos integration that's just going to make for three representations of GB you know the standard XKCD you know there are 13 competing standards we're going to come out with a 14th that unifies the ball the actual answer is now there are 15 competing standards um this is the state of stable coins within Cosmos and the PSM release is actually up just by itself a product that allows multiple stable coins to easily be translated into one representation and we are hoping that

like teams within Cosmos will find that representation useful so there's definitely a lot to unpack there but that last point that you mentioned and is like kind of viewing IST is a way to you know repackage these variety of stable coins throughout the cosmos ecosystem it was just uh scrolling through Twitter right before this and you could see six or seven stable coins that had great growth over the last 50 or so days and you know it's kind of like okay well how do we get one dominant stable coin within this ecosystem because obviously that's stable store of value is very important to to D5 users and so if we want I kind of want to keep going into like the actual ISD model so it's it only over collateralized or is there also some like a you know the the word

algorithmic has been has been stained recently especially within the cosmos ecosystem but you know I do know that there's that BLD boost model um so how what are the multiple ways that you can mint IST and how that change with the release of the vaults so I I might jump in there first and I'm going to steal some ideas that zucky actually gave me um so zucki you can feel free to jump in if I misrepresent them but I think one thing that the the launch of the the peg stability module made clear to me actually was that it will show the market sort of how IST can evolve overall right I you can you can think of stable coins uh as you classify them based on how they get minted because the

minting activity is is sort of one side you know you have holders of stable coins and then you have mentors of stable coins and the minting activity actually drives a lot of um stablecoin growth and limitations and what launching the parity stability module first did was show that okay we have this one minting mechanism which is effectively bring other strong stable coins in and back IST by some risk-weighted group of them but then we'll launch vaults as well and that Vault contract will get access to the IST mint and then some portion of ist will be bought backed by this sort of Vault system which is similar to you know over collateralize maker Dao and that can continue right so it will

it will be up to the the inter-protocol community which is governed at a base layer by build holders um how they want ISD to evolve over time and and the way zucky described it to me which I thought was great was IST can sort of consume all the useful effective minting mechanisms for a stable coin and put them into a risk-weighted grouping which which is controlled by the elected econ committee um and so because of that it could evolve in in any way that we want and um if we find that certain minting mechanisms no longer are useful or no longer interesting or have a risk profile that we no longer want we can

spin those down through the control of the the individual minting limits you know not only um at the sort of specific minting mechanism level but at the collateral level um and really tightly control what backs IST over time so that's that's how I see it evolving at this point and hopefully sort of as that will be clear to to all other users too once we launch vaults and now you have this new new method of minting IST right and we kind of touched on this earlier with the you know with the release of noble the general asset issuance chain secured by the cosmos Hub we already know that circle is going to be minting usdc through this chain for me like I personally I would I would assume what would happen was we'd really

Trend in the direction where that kind of becomes the the dominant representation of usdc within the cosmos ecosystem so you know I'm curious maybe Zaki do you have an opinion on that or do you think this actual art bridge and the gravity Bridge USC will kind of stick around or still have a place within the ecosystem I'm expecting I mean based on what we've seen from what you know perceived user demand um and what people say and what including the uh the IST economic committee has said is there's a very strong preference to switch to uh Noble issued U.S you know Noble minted usdc Circle issued Noble minted usdc issues it's available um and so I think that's going to be

um but like one of the other things that I think having uh Noble able to do is that it also really opens up the scalability of ist um because having the the um you know having a PSM um and you know it's it it's always interesting to work through the game theory but there's there's this thing where you need this this ability to take a dollar back stable coin and and exchange it for your uh uh you know Peg targeting stablecoin in order to actually have stability under all market conditions so it's a really important mechanism and basically the scaling of IST as you add in all these other mechanisms in a lot of it the scaling

just comes from and one of the things though that like I'm hoping I I really hope about IST is I think that maker has gotten so many things right um in the design of their stable coin which is why it has been you know a stable value basically since multi-collateral die launched uh and since the PSM launched um it's been you know an extremely stable asset it's been very successful they got so many things right but they're actually not in a great position to fully exploit the scalability of of the their protocol design um they're constrained by just like being written in solidity they're constrained constrained by like sort of being you know white like you know multi-chain was

never originally factored into the design um and so there's a lot of things that I'm hoping that we can really take the learnings of maker and like ramp the scaling in a way that you know maker is but finds themselves constrained uh in various ways I wanted to add a point on uh usdc bridge to usdc as as collateral in in IST I mean logically speaking it's just gonna like organically Decay right in favor of of native usdc so whether we do it like through governance like with a proactive approach or just users basically getting out of uh of uh Bridge the bridge version It's just gonna like naturally occur I think it would also be helpful like so maker obviously mkr is

the backstop liquidity provider for uh die so could you kind of walk us through the relationship between BLD and IST yeah and I can tell that story uh I'll tell a slightly shorter version of the long long version of that story which is that um really the where IST came from was the desire for the agoric chain to have a stable token for their gas token and and so that design has been around for four or four plus years and really ISP evolved from that original choice the the nice part about that is it allows the chain itself to to capture the growth of the economy through something other than transaction fees

and that is something that really um was interesting as sort of tokenomics for build is you know how do fees generated by IST go to a reserve that could be controlled by build holders for example and um so so that is one part of the relationship what you mentioned was safety backstop and uh that was in the original white paper design um and and I think as we as we evolve that I think it will be up to build holders to determine what relationship they want to have with with ist longer term in this initial phase the minting limits have been kept relatively low on purpose um to make sure that you know we're not seeing a large breacher or you know a bridge failure for one of our backed

assets uh and so um it hasn't really been discussed yet and I think in part it may may be driven by legislation coming up uh in Europe and other places and so their their Factor like that to consider but high level you know the goal is that inter-protocol and IST is integral to the functioning of the agoric chain is governed by build holders and I would expect that it's in build holder interest to maintain that if you can't tell we love data here block reach research and chain analysis the leading blockchain analytics company shares this passion with us we use data to extract Alpha and find the next thing coming in defy but chain houses is doing the gritty work and building trust in blockchains to onboard the next trillion

dollars of capital into the industry we need to grow safe consumer access to cryptocurrency and promote more Financial Freedom with less risk chain analysis has some of the most comprehensive and reliable data in the space and they use this data to power a full Suite of their solutions that can be utilized by industry professionals Best in Class training and certifications are also led by Chain analysis and some of the brightest Minds in the space if you haven't heard of chain analysis you gotta check them out and we'll link to them in the show notes I I saw that you could potentially mint IST using future staking yield up to a cap probably determined by governance I guess my question around that with PTSD from the Terra collapses once you get into that situation and you're you know

borrowing against future cash flow that isn't necessarily fully predictable and then you've also got BLD being denominated in US Dollars which is what it's supposed to uh ISD is supposed to be paired to how would you how are you looking at risk there and and uh how does that mechanism actually going to work yeah so build boost which is the mechanism you're talking about it's important to think that uh medium-term staking rewards for build uh are intended to be denominated in IST based on fees driven from the protocol right so actually what you're doing for build boost is borrowing IST against future IST earnings uh and and sort of managing it that way now the reality is

in in the near term those IST rewards will be small relative to you know the the standard Cosmos build staking rewards and so it'll look to users a lot more like Tara where you're collateralizing against the the owned asset um which is not not the intention of that design so I will say that that part of the design did get some pushback our expectation though is um if build boost launches it would be very tightly controlled both in terms of a total mint limit um for how much of IST could be backed by build uh build boost and and also uh in terms of sort of I'm going to say over collateralization requirements even though that's not technically how we

should be calculating build boost but um you know it you would take a lot of build to to Mint ist I think the the general way people should look at build boost is as not as uh even primary like uh a significant mechanism um for uh fermenting IST um in any sort of expected future it's really intended to help bootstrap that's trans like right now we sort of live in this weird world where people are paying transaction fees on uh agoric in build um which is basically a world that like we don't really want to see it's like not it's not aligned with the goal but like the problem is is that like if you

have build we don't want you to have to have a third a second asset that you went out and bought on a DEX in order to that like you went out and bought on a DEX in order to interact with the blockchain it makes like that would be it it sounds it it seems completely uh uh uh insane to kind of sort of be in this bootstrapping phase so what we kind of want to what we what we're imagining a world is more is like people on board onto the Agora chain with ist like people will uh uh potentially like have IST and use it to buy build um to stake it uh people will then have IST to do transaction fees people who are staking build are like oh I need to

like withdraw My Rewards or something like that I need to top up my IST they push a button they mint like you know a few dollars worth of ISD just from that process and it's like it's a ux refinement thing about how do you like massage your way to IST as the unit of account on the system because of like there are these like awkward pieces that are always there like um and I we find this like you know it's like uh we find this this this uh with Adam right it's like we want like Adam was never intended as a unit of account in an ecosystem but as a practical matter there's it's become the unit account the process of bootstrapping a new unit of account in the system is like super

complicated and we think that like build boost is like just a little polish on the ux there that might make a lot of difference as you imagine the scaling of the agoric system and and build boost I mean can can be seen as the tertiary uh minting method basically so you have the PSM uh that is obviously like something very important uh in the design and in the use case and then you have vaults and so between those two I think we should have like a pretty decent chunk of the total meaning limit and then like Roland says about Bill Bulls it's it's gonna really like evolve in a controlled way uh where we we carefully look at uh at the other like

minting limits and the relationship between the treatment and limits and just go carefully uh about it and and test right like it's all about uh testing using the the data to uh to adjust and see uh where you know we want to to go basically right I also think that kind of like plays into the scalability factor right because in a purely over collateralized model you know let's just say it takes about like 1.3 dollars to meet one dollar of the stable coin right so um having these a new way to kind of like use a different uh these staking rewards as another way to um mint ISD kind of even helps gives a throws a bone to like the the power users of the agoric chain um but you know speaking further on scalability like you know it seems like

so that if we have these three different ways we're the one that's live today is the PSM so as we expand out into vaults I mean I know earlier you mentioned that liquidations will be processed with Dutch auction style what does that look like in a more of a cross-chain world right so if let's just say vaults uh are now live and you know the atom token is a listed collateral uh you know if I if I'm a liquidator and I'm purchasing some collateral in the form of atom okay well now I need to go somewhere to sell this atom uh do you imagine that that will live in like a gork native amm or will there be some sort of like bridge to or IBC transfer to osmosis execute the transaction and come back to aborig yeah so this is a great question and I

think here it's it's important to sort of think about liquidation as an evolving product um so we have the V1 that will launch with vaults but the Liquidator contract as part of inter-protocol is separate and upgradable right so within the code um the EC can choose to use a different liquidation EC econ committee and choose to use a different liquidation contract and so um effectively I see liquidation growing into a suite of possibilities where um you know in the longer term the system is looking at sources of liquidity both on the agork chain and a cross chain making choices about where it wants to liquidate and unlike uh

ethereum it can actively choose right we don't need somebody sending a transaction into trigger liquidation that will happen as part of the system it can make choices on its own about where to go how to sell assets and where those end up now so review one then go ahead zucki okay I just like I want to like Galaxy brain what this looks like just because it's it's like the world that we're building and imagining is like really cool because like you could imagine okay the liquidation module running an interchange query figure grab it grabbing from osmosis what the slippage is likely to be on like what the slippage would be on atom 2 IST swap uh decide that like I need to liquidate

this much uh tokens use you know interchain accounts and IBC to like liquidate those or like swap in forward which is another thing that Osmos has just launched so like use an existing IBC protocol liquidate what it could within the acceptable slip enjoyment and then place the remainder in a Dutch auction yeah so liquidations are about to get really exciting um because where where this is going to evolve to is sort of what zucky was saying where the Liquidator itself can make all these different um decisions cross-chain uh and um actively choose to liquidate or sort through a list of potential capabilities that it might have

um where we are launching with for the V1 is a Dutch auction that maker Dow has pioneered as as effective um and what that means though is that we will be looking for a group of third-party Liquidators to come in and actively trigger those liquidations um and so because uh at launch there won't be a native amm or a native decks on the agork chain those Liquidators will need to liquidate either you know on osmosis or on their favorite centralized exchange um and so that will factor into the risk decisions that the econ committee makes around collateralization requirements and the modeling that third parties like Gauntlet might do to help sort of set those those parameters

um so you know the V1 Liquidator really does it relies on the the tested maker dial model um without Flash loans uh but then as liquidation evolves I really see you know I'm hoping that the community comes in with all of these different ideas for how we might might bring Liquidations in I have a couple ideas that I'm going to pitch and see that they're not ready to share publicly yet but I'm pretty excited about um as a teaser for those vaults on Agora could be transferable which means you start to get a whole lot of different possibilities for what kinds of interesting liquidations you could do or how the system could avoid liquidations to begin with and I'll just leave it at that I what we're hoping for is

liquidation becomes a giant community-led uh effort to to sort of figure out how how best we can deploy resources to make them more efficient and so that's something that we'll certainly be looking into as as the system evolves we start getting more production data I uh like one other thing that has been a general design philosophy in inter-protocol has been again following on Wesson's word for maker is that liquidations are kind of the thing to be avoided um uh we have uh like kujira with the usk stablecoin has kind of taken this design where they're like liquidations are like a feature of the protocol and like it's almost like we're like it

where it's like oh can you like like we want people making money we want like we want to build and like maker very much takes the attitude of you know we want a liquidation to be kind of the the worst case scenario where like liquidations are on you are are rare things um uh that ideally can be mostly avoided um but you know also as as tooling around makerhead but like there is robust tooling also available for liquidations and like we know they work and they are a part of the robot overall robustness of the protocol including the ability to like liquidate it you know large scale you know tens hundreds of millions of dollars so you know that both of these things are part of the

vision but it is like we are going less with uh inter-protocol it's like look at how many liquidations we just did to ideally liquidations are somewhat of a rare thing and you mentioned the econ committee I I think we haven't really discussed that in depth very much do you mind giving us a little high level overview of what that is yeah sure so that that would be me so we're a group of uh six elected members uh that are mandated by the the the build community uh so build basically is the governance token managing the the interpret call and so the economic committee goals uh are to to produce risk to to grow usage uh and also like to mitigate extreme events for uh for

intro protocol so to do so we we manage the the parameters of of IC such as the minting limits the the stability fees uh the collateral ratio the liquidation ratio um and so like if I give you an example of a recent intervention intervention that uh the economy committee did was a few weeks ago uh when we had a lot of uh fud around usdt possibly you know like uh losing pack we we intervened and uh Lord considerably the minting limits um around usgt as a collateral and also uh putting there some uh some fees to to discourage

usage and so yeah that's that's one of the example of the of the things uh we could we could we could be doing and we we work hand in hand with the community with the build community so um when we propose for example the whitishing of an asset it's it's a suggestion uh there needs to be a vote going on around that by by the build community so we regularly inform them of uh of pretty much uh you know everything that is going on with the with the inter protocol uh and and the various parameters um and also we saw soon we're going to be managing also The the Reserve pool uh that's gonna launch uh you know after votes um and uh yeah maybe Roland you want to

add something on on the econ committee sure I'll add something to the technical level which is that the econ committee um has built-in control to reach into the contracts and manage parameters directly right so they have they have two basic controls that they they um can use across multiple contracts um one is to change the values of parameters and so right now that that that control is sort of wide open so they could set the interest rate however they wanted um it also is possible to design it such that the econ committee is limited so that they could set the interest rate between three and five percent but not outside of that um the other control that they have is more of an emergency procedure where

they could pause the functioning of specific contract calls so for example if we see some issue with the Oracle price coming into the Vault system the econ committee would potentially be able to um or not potentially they'd be able to come in and stop the handoff of the Vault system to the Liquidator until that gets resolved so the econ committee is a really important stakeholder in constituency within the inter protocol and um you know I think this this group that has been elected to to start has been amazing uh and really excited to see that you know not only are they as Yusuf said not only are they sort of in control of risk but they are a key driver of

um growth as well and so we accept expect moving forward they also will have thoughts on designs for the protocol that will sort of go out to the community and and get built by work opco or by somebody else so um yeah and we also yeah and we also thank you Roland and we also you know into like uh I mean it's still very early stage like the space like the design space so you know we're very open-minded to run some experiments with uh you know with some level of controls and uh and and risk management obviously but I think the design space is is still pretty open right now uh so yes we've taken that root of of a fully collateralized stablecoin but that does

mean that you know we can't explore elsewhere what is what is being happening and uh and Zaki for sure is a is a key contributor contributor in that area as well um yeah I mean one of the things that uh one of the hats I wear in this is I'm on the board of this decentralized cooperation Foundation which is a foundation that is supporting use cases of the gore technology uh and Inter protocol and specifically uh and we expect to be doing like bounties and other other sources of support for uh people who want to start taking these ideas forward um on how to extend inner protocol sort of once the base protocol is deployed Yusuf do you feel that the the use of like an elected subcommittee if you will

within the Dow or within the the community has really helped kind of push forward like the the ability to respond to decisions quickly I mean obviously you know Cosmos as a whole and really just crypto as a whole governance is a huge thing that we're still like figuring out well what's the right process here so I'm curious to get your take on really how that's helped you being a part of the eec really respond to these kinds of changes and and help keep the protocol safe yeah I mean it's it's I think it's very important to have a small team dedicated to that and you know like I don't want to make comparisons but like I mean you you cannot govern a token like a stable coin uh via public governance entirety like it's just not gonna work like like

who's going to manage the the parameters like are you going to be quick enough to uh to be there uh and also like just competence basically like I mean on our team like we have two uh world-class economists uh Jason Potts and uh and Chris Burke uh you know like we have a variety of profiles so each of them was hand-picked uh to basically like deliver solid performance we have someone um Chloe white who's uh who's helping on on policy and regulation uh she's uh you know following very closely what is happening in in all the US government but not also not only the U.S government also elsewhere like regulations what's happening how we should be reacting to

that how we should also protect ourselves versus regulation um and so this committee I mean this econ committee it's a new thing for us like right this is our first mandate and so that's also part of the reason why we decided to be careful with just launching the first phase which is PSM uh and basically you know just scale up our operations get to know each other uh work more closely on on requirements with Roland for for what so like it's it's kind of like an iterative approach and careful approach where you know we go step by step uh and uh yeah that's it's been an amazing uh opportunity like opportunity for for me and I think

that's I mean going forward like blockchain like if we talk like in terms of like philosophical like way on on governance is you can't have everything everyone you know managing everything it doesn't make sense that's not like how the Legacy system works right and so there is no reason why it would work differently in in blockchain so uh you know like you need doubts basically with a small team that are more agile that can react more quickly that have competence uh and you know and eventually like can work with other doubts you know like douche down relationship uh and then you know in the back end you have the community basically there uh to make sure that

checks and balances are are there but more like in an Arbitrage role rather than a you know fully committed role where they're managing uh everything so I think like you have like two layers of governance right so the first one is community and then the specialized one is at the dollar level and so this econ Community I mean we're not a doubt per se but kind of right like we we manage the the you know the same scope of responsibility as as a daud would uh would manage exactly you mentioned early on that the launch of the PSM was an important test of a whole stack of capabilities that hadn't been tested yet one of those things was the econ committee right that was governance code that's written in India smart contract framework and is a really critical

element to the functioning of the system and we got to see with PSM they're able to vote to change parameters they're able to vote to launch you know it when a new PSM got launched to allow dye into the system they were able to come in and change the minting limits right away and so we saw all that functioning were able to test it and that then will get used for the much more critical role in vaults where minting you know the risk controls are much more important and we also get to show that off from the agork perspective you get to show that off to developers who want to come in and build their own governments because they can see how it got built with inter-protocol and sort of leveraged that for their own smart contracts interesting so I I guess one of my

remaining questions is one of the hardest things for an overclaughterized stablecoin is growing the supply and it seems like you guys can kind of tweak the borrow rate in order to incentivize that but in terms of Integrations with other protocols is there going to be like any kind of token incentives in terms of the build token or how are you thinking about encouraging Integrations across Cosmos defy so the decentralized cooperation Foundation has been using its treasury to incentivize uh uh using build incentives to incentivize Integrations around Cosmos defy the goal of the DCF is to promote sort of ubiquity of IST um so we as you know as new defy things

get spun up in Cosmos we are we are typically deploying incentives uh uh along in in you know kind of everywhere is currently our strategy in in Cosmos um also open question about whether or not we should go beyond Cosmos but right now there's just like so many defy things popping up inside of Cosmos that like we're pretty busy just you know keeping keeping on top of every single D5 thing on Cosmos that we need to like kind of pipe some incentives over to and and one thing that I I've liked about the dcf's philosophy for this is you mentioned incentivizing new minting mechanisms uh they've sort of thought about it as incentivizing the end state so incentivizing the use of ists

somewhere on some external chain which then pulls through demand for minting right so as there's some new Decks that launches or listing on a lending facility then that that will drive more supply of IST to get minted to go farm those tokens so it's really kind of pulling everything through and driving all activities and Roland I got another question for you on the on the technical side as well so you know obviously with liquid the liquidation process the price of the assets used as collateral is incredibly important and what does the Oracle price feed process look like pulling into and you know a new app chain built in the cosmos ecosystem in a a new smart Contracting language right like JavaScript generally hasn't been

writing smart contracts in the past so does that play any influence into how this process works yeah so the way the way we um we approach the Oracle network was actually using uh we we had a partnership with chain link two years ago uh sort of starting this process and what we ended up launching was a decentralized Oracle Network and by we launching I mean the the centralized Oracle Network launched um or is sort of in the process of launching using chain link software um using a um one of the previous versions of their aggregation contracts that was Rewritten for the agoric uh smart contract framework which we'll go through a series of audits and a whole bunch of

testing prior to launch um and that's the approach that we've taken and now we we know that Umi is sort of working with a new Oracle that has just recently they've been working through um and there are other Cosmos oracles so I think that's something that we certainly would want to look at moving forward um but you know we've seen that chain link has been robust through through D5 on multiple chains and and so that was the approach that we took for for vault's launch um so that will also be and this isn't the question you asked but we've gotten a lot of inbound interest you know either to the EC or to the DCF or to you know just various parties in the in the

ecosystem for other Cosmos chains who want to be collateral for IST obviously if you have a token it's sort of interesting to you to to be able to use that to collateralize IST one of the primary limiting factors there will be the availability of robust Oracle pricing and so Adam trades in a whole bunch of places it has deep liquidity and so that's in that's an easy asset that likely will pass a risk framework evaluation um but thinking through how that evolves as some of the longer tail assets want to get listed uh will be important yeah and you bring up that interesting point around liquidity right so you know obviously they're centralized exchanges that hold some of these uh tokens like osmo for example has recently listed on

binance but osmosis itself is kind of like the liquidity Hub at this current important current point in time and so you know I feel like if you simply pull up the osmosis pools tab a lot of these pools aren't that deep so it's kind of interesting to see like like the cosmos ecosystem as a whole kind of feel to me it feels like there still needs to be some growth around um kind of like liquidity liquidity depth because you need a place to liquidate into um but earlier you mentioned that like even the centralized exchanges provide good alt like alternatives to to these Liquidators to utilize so how do you think about balancing you know ideally you'd want to keep that all on chain uh so how do you think about balancing like you know what's pragma attic versus what is the most profitable so I guess I I

have a bunch of thoughts here which is one is I think that like the you know in you know in many ways the the cosmos liquidity ecosystem has not yet recovered from um the implosion of Tara and UST right um you know we've gone from uh and like in general it continues to be a struggle across the entire Cosmos ecosystem um to build liquidity um and you know we've seen interesting bursts of new liquidity sources coming in like uh what's going on on the Kanto chain right now is super interesting uh and fascinating uh but on the whole like the cosmos liquidity ecosystem I view

things like noble launching and US native usdc coming I I view things like the growth of IST um but also concentrated liquidity becoming more available um the uh for IST we were like I think the first uh incentivized concentrated liquidity pool on uh on Crescent which is that concentrated liquidity DUI for quite some time we have concentrated liquidity is coming so basically contrary to liquidity will allow our ecosystem to use the liquidity that we currently have more uh you know to allow for like less slippage uh and more efficient markets as it sort of expands and you know order book decks is like

also injective are also a big part of the story um so that's like one piece of the puzzle the other piece of the puzzle is better stories about onboarding new venues uh there are many pieces that are sort of working together to synergistically build out Cosmos I was also curious I caught my eye that uh busd so binance is stablecoin and gusd Gemini's native stablecoin um they are not listed as accepted collateral types was that uh intentional or is that like a partnership that maybe you'd want to explore further on down the line because I know maker has a partnership with Gemini and and yeah so that could be a good source for growth but I mean they're not the issue with those assets that you're talking about

is their bridged assets like we would have to bridge them right so um like right now I'm not going to say that we'd have to bridge them forever yeah yeah I mean but I mean I mean right now as of today right so I think you know usdc and and juicy right now are are fine but yeah we had some talks some initial talks within the econ committee to uh to whitelist uh other uh table coins uh in the BSM but I mean obviously like it's gonna be a much better a much better uh thing if we can do it with Native assets right and so that Noble chain uh you know I'm not aware of all the details it's it's not been like fully announced yet but uh if they can issue directly on the on that chain uh

busd gusd and others I mean for sure we would want to consider that right like it's it adds more diversity uh you know like we we basically reduce the um you know like more risk profiles in the PSM and more use cases and so yeah so but but that's not for now I mean like there's not a talk right now but soon enough I think I guess in a few weeks or months possibly yes yeah it sounded like a little a little hint of alpha right given it's a general asset issuance chain uh in circle is going to be the first user of usdc it will be exciting to pay attention to uh you know what other you know more centralized entities are interested in in using this technology and leveraging uh what it's

got but you know we've had a great discussion on really what what interchange protocol is what IST is and kind of how uh you know the teams are working to proliferate that throughout the cosmos ecosystem which again really is kind of has that whole of this one strong native stable coin that's used throughout defy and kind of can provide that stability to its users you know if you think about ethereum usdc usdt and die have really become that like that three pool of assets and I feel like you could have the same thing within the the cosmos ecosystem with potential usdc usdt X except with now with ist so it's really exciting to kind of watch this team push that push that forward and maybe Raul and I'll pass it to you to kind of to you know where can people find more about a gork how can people

keep learning about IST and The Interchange protocol uh yeah so uh for for gork I would direct you to Twitter uh and also to our our Discord so I think discord.com Discord should get you there uh that's really the best place to to chat with us on any deep level uh especially about things that are coming up or ideas that you might have to help improve protocols um we also on the agoric side we have a long-running bounty program uh where you know a number of excellent Builders have come in to start sort of building out lending protocols or other types of things so please reach out to us if there's something interesting that you'd like to build especially in the defy or nft space got a lot of stuff going on there and a lot of tools that you could use to build off of

um for inter-protocol inter-protocol has its own Twitter handle um I think it's enter underscore protocol um and I I think those are probably the best places to engage it also has its own Discord um so yeah please please come chat with us you know I think we're we're really especially on the boss launch we're really interested for people that want to come help with liquidations people that have ideas for how to expand different areas of inter protocol um after the vaults launch it really is going to move into a more open design space um because sort of the V1 of what what was promised is sort of going to be launched and so there's a lot of open opportunity if you've got something that you'd like to build or that you'd like

to drive forward so I'll leave it at that but uh yeah please come engage yeah Yusuf I'd love to get some closing remarks from yourself as well and maybe where people can find you and then we'll pass that over to Zaki to close us out yeah sure so uh yeah I mean I'm mostly active on uh on Twitter um what else uh yeah I think it's really Twitter so Yousef underscore uh amrani uh so I I tweet a lot about the cosmos Hub the cosmos ecosystem at large and obviously uh the IST stable coin yeah I could just I can close it so I'm sucky uh at z-m-a-n-i-a-n on Twitter it's the best place to follow me continue to do fun things with stable coins awesome

well that sounds great thanks so much for coming on guys we'll have to do it again soon