How Sommelier Democratizes Portfolio Management | Zaki Manian, Sun Raghupathi

Transcript

you'd be surprised at how many like really low hanging food strategies there are that just don't exist because the tools haven't existed up to this point right things like looping strategies things like delta neutral staking these are these do not require like massive amounts of uh you know off-chain Alpha and proprietary information really in some of these Pro some of these cases it's just you need someone who's doing the the computations right and you need a system that's able to run these strategies in a non-custodial decentralized transparent way what's up everyone welcome back to another episode of zero X research a show brought to you by Flipside and chain analysis today we've got an

awesome interview scheduled with uh sommelier a cosmos chain that's kind of aiming to democratize yield opportunities on different ebm compatible chains we are joined by Zaki who everyone probably knows by now who's a core contributor to the cosmos ecosystem and a co-founder of sommelier but then we also have Sun who's the strategist of the protocol so it's really an interesting conversation to get both perspectives but as usual we're joined by Matt and and you face David from the blockworks research team to go through a little hot seat cool Throne so David I'll pass it over to you to kick it off yeah I appreciate that and thanks for you know having me on here so uh on my second week here at blockworks research uh and you know came from being an avid listener to an actual speaker here so the come up is real so to kick

it off my cool Throne is coinbase um hopefully not in bad taste but this week they announced that they are going to be laying off about 25 20 of their staff in an effort to cut their off X spend about 25 quarter of a quarter so they're really doing what's necessary and tightening their belts in the depths of this bear Market that we're in right now um apparently the market like the news so the stock market uh the stock pumped about 13 on the day when the announcement came out and they're about uh they're about 34 uh this week so far um you know they provided some additional Q4 insights with their recent 8K report uh showing that in Q4 they are going to be losing about 500 million dollars uh which is within their guardrail that they told investors

earlier on in 2022 but if you look at Q3 numbers and look at their potential to collect 25 quarter over quarter in their Opex spend this leads to about 300 million dollars in Opex savings every quarter uh about uh 200 million dollar net income lost every quarter which actually extends our Runway by a few years uh based on their current Revenue uh stream so far this doesn't include revenue streams coming from coinbase eth and also USD interest payments going up with the Fed hiking rates over the past couple quarters so there's a really good chance that in 2023 we see coinbase going from cash flow negative to either neutral or or positive by engineer so um I think they're doing what's necessary and I'm excited to see what happens I love it yeah we've been

talking about coin a while uh now on on the past like three or four episodes and I know Matt Hogan kind of kicked it off in a bit wise episode but I agree I mean they have 80 million active users every month and they've also got uh you know their their liquid staking derivative which is going to Garner significant Revenue um yeah I'm bullish on coinbase and I also like the way Brian Armstrong handled the layoffs he actually like posted a a page that was like these are the people who are working here everything you need to know about them please reach out to them if you're hiring in the crypto space so I thought that was pretty respectable as well yeah additionally I think that coinbase is pretty well positioned with their liquids with their CBE liquid staking derivative to you know increase Revenue

in the coming years um you know a lot of people I think prefer to use coinbase and maybe like a Lido or a decentralized alternative just because it's more familiar to them so I'm also a huge fan of coinbase it's very upsetting and sad that they laid off all these people I hope that they find jobs but I do think that it's probably overall good for them in the market I definitely agreed with that one thing that was weird was right after the layoff announcements before the market opened it actually went down I forget exactly how much but somewhere in the ballpark at 10 and then throughout the day once the market opened it actually ended the day up 10 so it's pretty crazy to see that volatility but I do think that uh it corrected itself yeah I don't know if coinbase is the real uh cool

throne here or if it's Sam who like a week or two ago told us to purchase some 2025 options uh call options on coin so I don't know I think I think Sam's a real nominee here yeah I have blown up an options account before so do not follow my trades I any wins I get I will lose them eventually so I appreciate you putting me in that spot but I don't know I probably won't stay there for long but Dan that's probably a good segue to kick it over to you for uh your hot seat of the week yeah for sure so I actually have bit Dao queued up um so you know I tweeted a lot in mid-December they you put how they were pushing this governance proposal through to repurchase 100 million dollars worth of bit

um and that ended up passing and going into effect on Jan one so over the past you know it's recording this episode on January 12th and over the past 12 days they've been buying uh two million dollars of bit tokens per day so they're gonna do that for 50 days and hit that 100 Mark now this comes in a very suspect timing uh when there is a big bit unlock so the token is bit uh is bit a bit unlock of them just under two percent coming and that is ironically currently worth 80 84 million and they're doing a 100 million dollar buyback so I don't know that's you know you see these things like big announcements or product releases or you know token BuyBacks and then of course you go check uh token unlocks and what

do you know we have and you know I think the the phrase here that commonly gets to use is engineered exit liquidity uh which is hilarious right like is that what they're doing intentionally you know no one will ever know but this isn't the first time we've seen things like this like dydx has a massive massive unlock like some 60 of the supply uh and that comes you know right when they're trying to launch their their Cosmos app chain their V4 platform um you know ape has an ape token has an unlock coming you know we recently saw staking go live and it's just like token releases seemingly fall right in line uh with product development which is interesting yeah I definitely think that it's going to be interesting to watch this year how all the OG D5 protocols whose vesting schedules are completely

finished all these newer protocols that were come up that have their vesting periods kind of start for invest sisters and Founders how it actually affects the market and if I had to bet I would think that Heath just continues to outperform all of the applications built on top of it just because it doesn't have that structural Supply Dynamic of inflation so I just pulled up the chart and it looks like on the last five bit token unlocks it fell 16 40 20 22 and 42 and now since August of last year so it's pretty crazy that you know these bits out unlocks really have lined up pretty much exactly with your drops in the price and it this engineered exit liquidity is the right word and you know token unlocks are just one example of it um it's pretty crazy that it's so common

in this space and I think that people should be aware of that and hopefully our listeners are is there any such thing as bullish unlocks in a bear Market or is that just a bull market thing yeah I think a big part of it has to do with it perks are listed like if people you know if the people getting these token unlocks funds people organizations whatever have the ability to go hedge out their risk ahead of time they're probably going to do it but you know if there's no purpose listed or if the perps are liquid realistically the unlocks are probably not good for the price Matt you want to go ahead and uh carry on with your hot seat of the week yes in my hot seat this week it's kind of obvious like a give me but it's dcg as well as dcg's portfolio companies so

in case you've been living under Iraq BCG or digital currency group it's kind of a conglomerate they own a bunch as well dcg itself it's a BC fund they invest in seed rounds and early stage rounds for different crypto companies but they also own coindesk they own Genesis um as well as I believe a couple companies I'm missing um grade scale whatever I think that those would be the three anyways there's been a lot of rhetoric recently about dcg being having a hole in their balance sheet due to Genesis so basically Genesis went up made a big loan I believe is around two billion dollars to three hours Capital three hours Capital defaulted on it they're after the collateral liquidation it sounds like genesis was left with about somewhere in the range of a billion a billion three in you know in assets that they were not

able to cover dcg gave them a promissory note that they were going to cover this loss but in reality it was actually there was no money given it was just kind of a promise where I know that they would cover it so it sounds like there's a lot of trouble there from this morning Financial Times and our Reuters echoed this but there's three billion dollars currently owned to owed to Genesis creditors supposedly dcg is looking to liquidate some of their portfolio companies so these include chain analysis Bic blockchain.com Brave Circle coinbase coinmetrics June ether scan the list goes on pretty much every day company a huge portion of big companies in crypto dcg has actually invested in so these companies might see you know it's not good for dcg it's not good for the portfolio company it's not good for

anyone um Financial time says that it's about 500 million dollars in value of this these portfolio companies I'm not sure if that's true I'm not even sure if the three billion dollars is true or the only thing that's really confirmed is that they owe 900 million dollars to Gemini and another 300 million to bit Volvo so you know it's kind of still unfolding but they're definitely in the hot seat if that three billion dollar liquidity hole is real that's a problem if you look at back in November I want to say November 2nd a week before the top of the bear Market in 2021 dcg raised uh they sold about 700 million dollars of stock to alphabet and SoftBank I believe for a 10 billion dollar valuation at the time Peak bull market valuation ever since then almost every single

publicly traded stock uh that's related to crypto as well as you know tokens themselves are down 80 85 90 that means the entire the parent company of Grace gallon if grayscale is three billion dollars to their creditors the entire parent company that owes owns you know the handful of other arms that you discussed that entire company might only be worth two billion dollars today so we don't know if the hole's you know real or not but no matter how you slice it dcg and grayscale in particular is in a really tough position yeah that 10 billion valuation just blows my mind I remember when Amazon acquired Whole Foods and like all their assets like for 10 billion dollars so if you think about that in comparison that's pretty wild um I don't know did you guys see Barry's

like thread that he tweeted about I I personally saw like a lot of like really negative quote tweets responses and I know like he was the guy behind the wheel but he seemed pretty genuine in it I'm curious if you guys had any opinions on his take yeah I mean Barry's been around since the beginning he's one of the OG crypto people that's still active in the space I have so much respect for him um you know I would never say that he I would never imagine or assume that he did anything like really bad I think it was kind of just a terrible situation and that he got caught in the crossfire of a lot of other bad contagion going on in the crypto industry over the last year so like I'm still a huge fan of Barry and I hope that him and his

companies are able to pull out of this I suppose I can kick it over to myself for uh my cool throw of the week I'm gonna go with uh g-trade it's a Gaines Network the governance token is gns they just launched on arbitrum and you're seeing basically up into the right growth between uh both polygon where they kind of originated and on arbitrum like metrics in terms of you know users fees generated volume open interest Etc they're kind of like the only venue that you can trade Forex which is pretty attractive in this like macro heavy of a bear market so I expect that their success will continue I also found it interesting that you basically are getting 20 to 25 percent yield being an LP in their divault which has been

completely redesigned in like a much better way ever since they kind of faced some troubles with the UST Luna collapse back in May of this year so they're just actually innovating and it's one of the few parts projects that isn't just copy and pasting you know GMX code so I'm bullish on them and uh yeah I'm gonna keep watching them watching them succeed hopefully yeah the the Forex thing is super weird to me like who who is trading this right because if you think about like obviously that's one of the most liquid markets in the world but the people trading in are like a multinational corporations or International Banks like people actually are hedging currency risk uh that is not what's going on on gains Network you cannot convince me otherwise so I'm like okay so then then the second group of people that trade Forex are like

Instagram influencers like these people just like 100x leveraging these trades I don't know that just seems such a strange thing to me uh but if it's working good for them now my thesis is it's suzu and Kyle Davies they were Forex Traders back in the day before they got into the crypto space they're trying to make it all back in one trade on gains Network so just wait for the gains Network symbol to be next to uh suzu's Twitter uh profile page in a few months time well no that's a funny Theory David yeah I don't it's pretty wild though I mean they've done 23 billion or so in lifetime volume and GMX has done 90 and 70 of that volume historically I believe is 4X so I do think they're winning that race and then if you can get some of those arbitrum

degens from GMX over to games Network I could really see gains flipping GMX and volume and fee Revenue uh that's a that's a hot take right there and I'm probably gonna get some nasty replies in the comments on that one but I would stand by it one thing I really like about games is that they seem less afraid to like they have not only do they have 4X listed but they also have synthetic Equity equities you can trade I believe synthetic Tesla Apple a couple other ones um and I think that that's huge obviously it brings some regular or concerns potentially but when you compare it to like a dydx a GMX sequenta who don't have those same assets listed I think it really gives them a leg up um kind of similar to like maybe how like sushi swaps are willing to return real

Revenue to token holders like gns just doesn't care if they're they're not scared of The Regulators um so although maybe that brings problems in the future I do think that that's good for you know token holders and Traders and just for their Edge in the space for now as an honorable mention I was curious if anyone saw that AWS partnership with Avalanche um like is that a nothing burger or is that does that have some weight David I know you got some opinions on this one so yeah if we would have done another round of hot takes I probably would have put avalanche on there uh just being in the space for for probably a little bit too long I remember the bottom of the 2018-2019 bear Market multiple blockchains that really nobody ever heard of we're announcing Amazon partner Network sponsorships with with AWS one-click deployment of nodes

to enable compliance and Enterprise oh sorry Enterprise blockchain adoption um still bullish on Avalanche like what they're doing with subnets um I think it's a little maybe a little too early for for them to take off but um got you know some bear Market 2018 2019 vibes from that uh so that's really my take on that right now yeah I think that's a good time to flip it over to uh Dan for chart of the day but before I do I want to take a moment to thank uh chain analysis they're they're an incredible sponsor and they also just dropped their 2022 kind of year in review uh crime report so they basically found that 0.24 of all transaction volume on chain is illicit activity but that also said that the reason for this

growth the first time it's actually grown since 2019 is because of the ofax sanctions on tornado cash and then also the large amount of bridge exploits there's like a lot more information in the report and they also have a lot of really cool courses online so we'll link to that in the show notes and I highly recommend you check it out and to jump into the flipside Dash review we actually have a another block Works research special here so this one is actually built by effort Capital himself so it's again built using Flipside data I just took a screenshot of it um yeah I've had this around for a day or so now so it's good to have it um but it's a really interesting chart effort you want to take us through this yeah so pretty much uh what you're looking at here is the largest uh in a

given month what liquidity pools on osmosis are seeing the largest capital inflows or at outflows by liquidity providers you know in a given month uh and this is bucketed by each individual liquidity pool by uh USD so what we're seeing right now in the month of January again January 12th uh for for those listening uh the largest liquidity outflows by liquidity providers in the month of January so far is in the rapty osmosis pool um at the beginning of the month that pool in particular had about 12 million dollars liquidity and right now it's sitting at about nine million liquidity so it's lost almost three million dollars uh you know month to date um my thesis is you saw a large outflow

of liquidity around January 5th January 6th my thesis is that with the whole uh liquid staking derivatives narrative a lot of people are starting to get bullish on uh State eth and and different variations of that like rocket pool and stake wise and whatnot so there could be a lot of rap teeth outflows happening from osmosis going back to each main chain deciding to liquid stake it and then try to double on their yields uh in you know potentially their ethify or potentially if osmosis comes back with like a steak to eat liquidity pool um you know you can see liquidity come back to to the osmosis chain but uh that that's really my thesis on why you're seeing such large Capital outflows right now the tvl chart of Osmosis is is

pretty sad honestly but uh yeah I mean it doesn't it doesn't really surprise me we see if outflows from osmosis potentially like you know that narrative doesn't seem to to shock me you know we have Mars protocol coming to the cosmos ecosystem which I really do think has uh really a big Catalyst potential to kind of Drive some of that defy uh activity uh you actually put out a great Thread about like the potential for a cosmos D5 summer which you know you kind of need you need leverage for that to happen that's just kind of how um what it was played like a key ingredient uh in in the last D5 summer so um it'll be interesting once you know that ecosystem really starts to mature and osmosis as a whole kind of has some very interesting things going on they're talking about how to like cut back on

admissions since you know they're really not competing against anybody else and as a DEX in the cosmos ecosystem so they've kind of been redirecting emissions to the community pool and doing some interesting things so I'll be interesting to watch that play out but I you know this again I wanna I Wanna Give Flipside a little special shout out here they make things like this possible and really allow analysts to have a job basically uh but even better than that they allow anybody to go on chain and study what's happening and that's what's really interesting to me is the fact that they can do all this for free right you get unlimited query execution at premium speeds for free you get unlimited dashboards for free it's it's the best querying platform out there and I you know there is no second best in the world words of Michael Saylor uh and

be sure to check out their new web app uh it continually is improving it's still in beta but uh every day I log on there and see a new little little Improvement they've made and I just you know it's a great way to really get your hands on and start studying blockchain data all right I think that's a good time to cut it thanks for coming on guys over to sommelier welcome back everyone we are joined by Zaki and Sun the co-found saki is the co-founder of sommelier and in a very active participant all throughout the cosmos interchange and sun is the co-founder and CEO of Seven Seas which is an investment firm that is building strategies on top of sommelier so we have this really interesting uh perspectives from you know right we have the builder of the base layer and then sort of someone on that application

Level that's really taking what the base layer is offering and building off of it uh guys thank you so much for joining us today really looking forward to this one maybe I'll throw to you first talking can you kind of give us a little bit of a brief intro of you know what small a is and then we can kind of dive into some of the exciting developments that you all have going on yeah so sommelier is a product that we've been building for this uh you know it's been almost two years um and like so this is a big milestone because like much of the like this is like finally the culmination of like all the core protocol features are actually sort of coming out this month uh uh it's uh uh the um so what what is similarious similia I guess our sort of Buzz words are

actively managed Asset Management on chain um and you know providing access to D5 right um and so the the uh the whole point is that like on ethereum and other EVMS which is what we support we support EVMS right now um We There are a variety of different Financial positions that you can take um but how do you decide um you know what assets to hold uh uh what assets to hold what uh uh where to find yield all of this stuff um and how do you Monitor and how do you how do you react to that and so you know the the sort of the vision that

started with with uh uh similier is myself and the rest of the team that built this thing um you know started out watching defy summer and spending you know hours you know clicking on you know clicking and signing clicking on your Ledger and signing clicking your Ledger and signing you know oh there's this now I gotta move my money between these things you know and like you know it it you know it was really fun but it also takes over your life and it's like okay this is not like a a thing for the real world right this is not this is like this was a fun thing to do during like the pandemic when no one could go outside but this is not not going to be how we're going to spend the rest of our lives and so similier was sort of born with that

vision of the you know uh of how do we make defy really accessible and sustainable um without having to compromise without having to compromise at all on like robustness resiliency transparency self-custody yeah fantastic and you know it's built as a Cosmos app chain so I'm really curious you know how does that kind of give it some advantages over maybe something that's just a single contract or a series of contracts built on ethereum yeah I mean so I think like one of the biggest things that we have is um we like EVMS and ethereum in particular are still like sort of the home of D5

um and you know at very you know we we see expanding defy lots of exciting D5 stuff happening in the IVC ecosystem lots of expand stuff like and like I I believe that D5 will expand in the world Beyond uh the evm world but it's like look that's where the tvl is that's where the usage is um and there's and like honestly there's a maturity there that has allowed us to like to do things um but why have an app change um and so you know there's a it's one of the things that we've done is like so if you're a user of sommelier you don't you don't have to uh worry about the app chain at all you know you don't have to stake some you don't have to bridge tokens you don't do anything like you go

in metamask pops up you can interact with it you can buy strategy tokens on dexes like you know you just like aren't uh the app chain is not like in your face um but if you're a strategist or uh if you're a strategist um you're that's who's interacting if you're a strategist you're a validator you're a Psalm Staker you're participating in governance these are the people who are uh who are providing the infrastructure to make this app happen and that all of that incentive alignment so everything from you know like revs so you know there's like lots of cool stuff that we do like we do rev shares from these strategies so like if the strategy is successful and it and as it generates management fees like those

gets shared out to sommelier stickers um uh we have mechanisms by which we can fail over strategists of like a strategist you know disappears um uh you know the strategy doesn't immediately become sort of just like unmoored and like you know it can be put into a safe State um you know there's a lot of so these kinds this this you that piece this whole like utility layer and all incentive alignment layer for the validators and strategists run on the chain and so you know before we kind of get into some of the more exciting Innovation that's really coming um you know if in within probably days of this podcast releasing uh I just want to not like get a further understanding of like what does it look like if I'm a user you know I come to the app chain I deposit

my funds to deploy into a strategy uh how do those funds actually move from my deposit to uh you know being actively used by the strategist so I can I can already just uh make one Amendment there which is that as a user uh you don't actually interact with the app chain uh there's a smart contract which is a vault you know it's the same thing as a vault product which sits on the ethereum chain right now and you interact with that smart contract directly right so as a user you come to that smart contract you deposit into that smart contract you receive uh tokens that represent your share and then that smart contract is doing interesting things and running interesting strategies and the key aspect of like what's interesting about

the strategies that's where the sound chain comes in right um so I think we can get into more about architecture but as a user you don't even have to know that an app chain exists right you can just interact with that smart contract and rest assured that your funds are secured on ethereum like main chain right that's super interesting yeah I was going to ask the question like if you're deploying like a multi-change strategy the first thing that comes into my head is like is that safe so I wanted to ask you a bit about Bridge risks if there is any Bridge risks and how you're thinking about security yeah uh multi-chain is kind of like and all that just like you can get more into it multi-chain is kind of um you know on the in one of the on the road map for Somalia day and for like

you know 70s to run multi-chain strategies uh right now our strategies are all running on each mainnet we have plans of supporting other EVMS you know like Avalanche robber trim Etc but uh right now there are no multi-chain strategies and that being said uh there are no bridged Assets in this like strategy architecture so the Somali Somalia is a L1 Cosmos chain right and it is uh the the bridge that Bridges sommelier to the ethereum ecosystem is called the gravity Bridge it's a it's actually a fork of the gravity bridge that people may have heard of but this is a proprietary bridge to sommelier and it is a message passing Bridge so the

way it works is strategists will submit signals to the sommelier blockchain the Somalia validators come to consensus on whether those signals should be accepted and those signals are rebalanced they could be rebalances trade et cetera when consensus is achieved that signal is then passed through the bridge to the ethereum side to be executed on that smart contract so in this whole flow right uh cost like user assets are sitting in that smart contract ethereum and on ethereum and it's the signals that strategists come up with that are the ones that are propagated through the psalm side over the bridge and into the ethereum side so no bridged Assets in this in this workflow yeah and I think that's kind of one of the core value propositions really around

um why like the advantage of a really Somalia right like so you know if you're someone who's only ever used ethereum you do have this like thought process of hey I really don't want to bridge my assets off and this gives you the ability to kind of get this this benefit of the you know a strategist managing uh kind of the the deployment of your funds yet you don't have to actually Bear any Bridge risk and I think it's like the really kind of like a unique perspective that's uh something we really haven't seen so if you want to get a little deeper into you know what the development that's coming out you know we have sellers V2 launching exactly you want to kind of give us like a an intro of how this kind of takes the the protocol to the next level yeah so similia has been live since July

um and it's been an incremental process of delivering strategy so our first sort of proof of concept strategy was a was a smart contract that all it could do was hey are they uh uh uh uh here's a bunch of Ave positions actively rebalanced between them um then what we uh were able to do then when we went to from there was portfolio management strategies so um we have these like each easy Trend ECC momentum uh us portfolio management strategies uh formatic and uni and eth and Bitcoin so there's like and there's like you know uh a number of those we have you know two different strategists

that are not here uh uh providing uh strategies for those hoping to onboard more um and those that's not going away in any way shape or form um but really one of the big things that similia wanted to do was not just trading strategies but what we wanted to do was provide access to D5 um and so in order to provide access to D5 we had to uh uh Kevin Kennis and crispy mangos from our smart contract team um dreamed up this architecture which I think you're starting to see across like more and more it's become sort of like the state of the art of vaults which is uh what people call the adapter architecture where you basically have this like plugable sort of uh Lego blocks that by which vaults can plug in

so now we have this whole pipeline which is uh like the you the interface is what's called an erc4626 token that is like a is a token standard for vaults those those represent the uh the nav of the whole position and the whole position is could actually be across every D5 protocol that there's an adapter so we have like Ave lend Ave borrow compound land compound borrow trade on uniswab LPL right so like basically the full surface area of all of the possible interactions so now as a strategist if you're you know your seven C's you can get to come up with like sort of the entire possibility space of the combination of those two

the minute we get another adapter audited we don't even have to like redeploy the strategy you can deploy that adapter plug it into the Legos and now there's another source of yield and another source of yield another source of yield as long as there's more D5 stuff coming out that we can plug into on ethereum and other EVMS we can plug them all in even to existing sellers but so there's like a whole like everything from what we what I think we're uh the forthcoming product from Seven Seas which is uh the real yield USD which is going to be the first use case first uh uh sellers V2 but like you can build something that uses you know uh you can build a product that goes short on using you know uh borrowing and selling you

can build you know there's just you know leverage long positions you could build a a product that like tries to insure against depeg risk of a stable coin like there's all kinds of stuff that you can build um and so like yeah there's like today day is a big milestone in terms of just like the possibility of space of everything that can possibly be built on top of Familia and ever and each adapter sort of exponentially kind of EX increases the possibility space so for the adapters themselves like what would the long-term goal be would that be to you know your team keeps continuing to build these out or eventually does it hit like an inflection point where if I am a D5 protocol

um you know it's in my best interest to like build this adapter and connect to Somalia um I think we're gonna be we're hoping that we can demonstrate that that is a a really important thing for uh like a really important so here what there's two reasons why I think this is like like why we believe that like we should be able to see start seeing community and D5 protocols sort of bring in their own adapters relatively quickly um and the reason we uh uh we we think that's the case is that um you know most D5 protocols it's pretty hard to like you know guiding users through these defy protocols is

just a challenge for every team like I want to take this position okay like where do I click in your thing to like achieve that position right uh and then like monitor that position unwind that position is that position still the best position uh you know that all of these things are are huge challenges for every D5 protocol and they're onboarding their user bases and similier is basically a solution for that we're an infrastructure for that and um you know the world I want is not a world where most of the of the strategies that are using similier you know have come from app.samelia.finance I'm I want a world in which every D5 protocol is like look

I built my new D5 primitive I'm also going to spin up a sommelier strategy you know we don't need to be integrated into their website or UI or anything or like you know nothing other than telling governance okay run this strategy here's the here's the fee split like this is why it'll make you money go run it like we're just like the protocol at the end of the day is just you know infrastructure as a service for securely providing uh uh non-custodial active management and I just I just want to add to that that it's already the case in the Somali ecosystem that people can come and build adapters um we did a there was a hackathon actually at Heath Lisbon uh for this very thing and there were teams there that actually built adapters that uh you

know will be audited in the coming months and hopefully released but already you know for individuals teams protocols there are already opportunities to come and build adapters and integrate into the uh the strategies strategy ecosystem that we have so it sounds to me like sommelier is only as good as its actual strategies so how do you actually incentivize strategists to come and you know come up with new Innovative strategies that can be utilized by users so you know um like like a lot of Vault products uh Somalia sellers have the opportunity for management fees and performance fees uh there's essentially a whole governance process to get a strategy accepted onto the Som chain uh basically you deploy the smart contract that smart contract

contains the parameters for what fees are going to be taken so you know is it 2 and 20 management performance fee whatever it is then there's a voting period right the Somalia Community has to say these numbers are reasonable we're going to accept the strategy and then the strategy runs right and again users can come to ethereum and deposit the strategist can execute actions through the Somalia blockchain on that smart contract and they have opportunities to earn so that's like a standard model right but what I think is is particularly appealing about sommelier that you don't have in existing offerings right is this ability to take your off train computation right keep that like optimization or whatever

strategy you have in your backend uh proprietary right but execute that on chain in a transparent and decentralized way right so you know whether that's some you know interesting trading strategy you have where you don't want to release exactly the the parameters of it because you can get front run or whatever you lose your Alpha you can actually keep that off chain right and all that you have to submit on chain is the result of those computations uh so that's one piece it's the ability to keep your your algorithms proprietary the other piece is that sommelier is you know through this adapter architecture currently and is going to continue to uh support increasingly more defy Integrations right so basically the state of the art

is like you have two kinds of things you have active management uh portfolio management right these are protocols like you know enzyme or D hedge and then you have like volatile based products which are more static right the logic is pretty much all encoded in the smart contract things like urine you know beefy whatever whatever volt products you have but sommelier is the first product where it's the The Best of Both Worlds here you have active off-chain reputation whether that's machine learning or whatever and you have access to all of D5 limited only by you know what adapters we have built or what what adapters exist and you can always build one yourself if you want so son as a strategist you know what are you real most excited about with sellers V2 uh is are there any strategies you know maybe

specifically around like stable coins that you've been back testing and are ready to deploy that's a great question that is exactly the case um so I've you know I've I've been like involved in the Somali ecosystem for a very long time as zucki mentioned we've been waiting a long time for the sellers V2 Vision to come to fruition in fact Seven Seas is the one operating that kind of inaugural Ave seller which is really more of like a proof of concept of the system but what we actually wanted to launch back then was this new stablecoin product which is now enabled by sellers V2 which we call the real yield USD seller so you know the name kind of tells you what that does basically this strategy is going to be uh it accepts usdt usdc and die and

those are the assets that the strategy will have exposure to and it maximizes yield on Ave compound and unit swap V3 lping um you know with no leverage uh again no short positions or anything like that it's purely lending on avian compound and then lping on unisplot B3 but you know we have some very promising results from this I can say that there's a lot of Alpha and univ3 which does kind of require some off-chain computation to fully take advantage of I think we're all really excited to launch this first product which will be the first of many on Somalia so it's a really interesting concept especially with uni V3 I do agree that there's this a lot of a lot of hidden Alpha there you know the

common um you know CT crypto Twitter you know statements are always like IL is eating you up and whatnot but the reality of the matter is there's there's a lot more complications that are going on behind the scenes and it wouldn't surprised me if there's you know a subset of people that are really extracting a majority of those LP fees so that's really exciting to hear and creating these you know these vaults that only have exposure to stable coins so I would assume that means all the lping on udv3 for example would only be in stable pairs is that right that's exactly right yeah it's a it's a stable Coin Vault um and there's a lot there you know yeah I think like you said there's there's definitely opportunity uh particularly

you know impermanent loss is and that's that could be its own topic right um but in permanent loss with stable coins is interesting and there are actually ways to be profitable here in fact I think this is uh I think it's one of the you know lping stable pairs on uniswap I think is one of the only truly profitable things you can do on uniswap as an LP that might be uh you know it's a bit of a cynical position but at least that's that's how I feel about it maybe the only thing truly profitable thing you can do purely on chain how do you think about delta neutral strategies like do you guys ever you know stake an asset and then potentially go short that asset and capture the yield or you know you

see a lot of vaults being built on top of products like glp in the case of GMX like how are you guys thinking about that um so yeah that without that'll be that comes down to you know okay so they're like there are three things that's like you know it's like it's January 2023 the crypto Market is in meltdown and Familia we have like three things to launch uh uh sellers V2 which we've been talking about um and that's staking rewards uh are coming to the platform so I I had mentioned that we uh you know that fees accrue to the stakers um on the platform right now fees have been accruing but nothing has been distributed to the stakers

um and so we have this we have a we have a release that's coming out um that'll that'll sort of activate staking rewards um and that's that's that's also like imminent days weeks away um and then the third piece is multi-chain um and probably the most asked for adapter to the protocol from strategist is uh GMX uh support so you know getting so to do DMX support we have to do two things we have to launch um on the sommelier protocol support for multiple ebm chains right now we're just on ethyl one um and the second thing we have to do is um is uh is is right that GMX adapter

um so those are the those those are like two pieces that are all and it's like all of that stuff is like 95 done yeah basically it's like hard to do you know like act like like aggressively hedged um any kind of aggressive hedging on eth right um there's no great way of going short there's no like interesting options available everything's just too expensive so nobody's built these things um I mean you could do like over collateralized shorting on Ave or whatever but that's not that interesting but you know as like you mentioned as soon as we have access to some of these other chains where it's less expensive to do these things that's a whole new world of possibilities uh that we're excited for and that we'll get access to in the not do distant future if you

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capital is really this finite resource that all of these D5 Protocols are kind of like you know attempting to acquire so it makes a lot of sense to me that you would start on ethereum you know tvl on ethereum is something around 24 billion I think the the runner-up in that category is finance chain coming around 2 billion so you know it does make a lot of sense to start there um but you know I think there's a pretty good case around having the cosmos ecosystem itself having its own little a defy summer if you will right with the launch of interchange security you know Mars protocol coming to the plan platforms now you have lending both both lending and a decks through osmosis like now it kind of starts to see like there's getting some traction uh in this in this in this area

um do you think adapt I assume adapters are certainly possible in the cosmos ecosystem uh but does that process look any different a cosmos um so I'll say like one of the biggest tricks that I am uh so when we build uh uh Cosmos support into sommelier it is going to be looked very differently than a product we have on the evm um and one of the biggest things is that like we don't build sellers right now that you know we don't build strategies that can hold positions that cross chains um but if you want to build something most likely for Cosmos to like this represents like

an interesting question this is like kind of like why building something on some on top of sommelier was possible on top of the evm ecosystem at this current level of maturity um but like hard on top of Cosmos because there's so many unknowns right and like one of the big unknowns for me is like are there going to be like non-trivial strategies that don't they can that are non-trivial strategy is going to be primarily on on all on one chain so like do we just need to build like connectors to osmosis for instance and then there'll be like an Astra Port out uh uh in a Mars Outpost and all that stuff and basically people just run osmosis strategies um via that and if we if that was the world we end up in

um we can build a very similar user experience to what we currently offer on top of each on top of of chains like osmosis injective Etc but Cosmos being Cosmos we might also end up in a world where um where every uh uh where like you have to in order to coherently build a strategy you have to actually have positions that cross chains um and if that's the world that we end up in then um the one big thing that is a really important like right now the waste uh similar works is any user of any strategy can enter or leave at any time now this is not like an immutable fact of the of like the strategy concept or

anything like there might be good reasons to change this user experience um for various strategies um but we started out at this at this position of you can weave at any time you know it's you know and like there are a lot of interesting composability things that come out of that like for instance you could take leverage on the strategy token itself right because a liquidator can liquidate from this can like go from the strategy token to the underlying more liquid assets um very easily so these things are cool but if we want to do that you know anything you want to do multi-chain you end up building a system in which there's like an a window of time in which you can exit in a win and there's like a queue that you wait in to exit and then like you so you like

it's like more like unstaking and staking where you're like I unstake and then like that's you know the the you know the the hour of where you're allowed to bring your funds out like happens and like all everyone's funds comes out uh and like I put my funds in but like everything doesn't get deployed and I don't get my LP shares for like until that like window happens um and so it's been a little bit of an interesting question and I think it's a big open question for Cosmos uh which user experience we target so this has been uh uh uh the to me the like sort of little bit of existential debate um about how you build something like sommelier for Cosmos and mostly I'd like to just see more defy running on Cosmos

um to be able to like understand roughly what we're building towards yeah really valid points there but one thing you mentioned got me thinking and it's okay so if I'm a user I deposit into I have you know let's say usdc on ethereum I deposit those into a Somalia contract so of course I never took Bridges because my fund's already on ethereum um as the strategy is generating Revenue um you know the the strategist or the psalm stakers and validators are entitled to a portion of that Revenue so how does that Revenue flow from the the Vault on ethereum back to those uh you know stakeholders so so those folks get to experience the joys of bridge risk to a certain extent

um so basically what happens is periodically we sweep up so like funds like uh accrual is happening constantly so like fees are constantly getting accrued um they can be pulled up into uh uh fees are getting accrued at the ethereum layer then period likely the protocol sweeps those fees up into the cosmos layer and bridges them then we hold an auction on the cosmos side where we sell all of these different tokens that we've bridged um for uh uh for uh we we sell all of those tokens for song um so someone has to show up take

unstaked Psalm buy those tokens and those uh uh those those tokens that they've sold in the auction those then become the staking Rewards or like a contributor to the staking rewards of the protocol and so and what we do after the auction is like we sort of smooth out over about a week um the so like you know because uh you know otherwise you would just get like one block where you had really high yields and then like every other walk would be like slow yielding much lower yielding um so instead we like Smooth out over a week uh the results of every option and then does a portion of those fees go to like the Somalia Treasury and then also with circle chain coming to Cosmos is that process going to change in any way

or is it going to remain exactly the same no obvious impact on this on this uh on the circle chain as as a as a thing for similar in the short run um to answer the easy part of that question um the sort of you know these are parameters is that the the community gets to adjust you know typical to a cosmos chain about like what fraction of those tokens end up going into the in the community treasury um one of the other things that's like sort of a thing with simelier is a very large fraction of the initial tokens of plot so a couple of things some is a non-inflationary token unlike basically every other Cosmos chain except for kujira uh apparently Mars will also be non-inflationary um I'm glad to sort of see this trend

towards away from hyperinflation or Cosmos chains uh and Cosmos tokens but Tom has been a non-inflation cosmon sticker and 500 million some that's all that exists maybe there you know Governors could decide to create more but like that's not something that we view isn't something that we imminently see happening um or really hopefully see in the foreseeable future and so as we've been doing liquidity mining um uh there's going to be some capability of using those uh tokens Community Fund tokens to also supplement staking returns um all of these things are just coming out of a community pool that has about 150 million songs interesting that actually you kind of brought up a point you know Cosmos does have a lot of inflationary tokenomics of a lot of its

chains so I was curious if it's kind of hard to get people to deposit for maybe lesser yield uh into sommelier when you have staking rates so high on you know osmosis atom Etc yeah I mean I think so as we launch um as we launch the um as we as we launch the um uh sticking rewards um later this month um you know there's yeah there's no it's well we'll see um there's a bunch of parameters that the community gets that the storm holders get to tweak to set in it because right now the staking rate ensom is really low so not that much like either they're pulling from the uh in

terms of of fees and uh uh uh in terms of fees and uh uh contributions from the community pool to the to staking rewards um are needed to drive like relatively competitive apis um but presumably that would cause the staking rate to Rise um uh and you know it'll be an interest it's going to be an interesting thing but really I'm hoping you know as we've seen like a lot of the most the really inflationary tokens in Cosmos really have their you know uh value plummet um uh in the bear Market um and liquidity really dry up I think that the like one of the most important

things that we have to see happen this year is a pivot to sort of more sustainable tokenomics and Cosmos yeah I I think it's hard to dispute that claim right there but if we took a back step here um and let's say I want to get back to the vaults for a second so if I let's say you know after this after this recording I I'm immediately go to I backtest some crazy uni V3 uh you know strategy that I I have potentially come up with would I be able to just go to the Somalia platform and immediately like launch My Vault is that process process permissionless or is that something that's uh like governance gated governance approved yeah there so there is a governance uh getting a strategy accepted to sommelier is a

governance process um basically what you you would do is first of all the unit swap V3 adapter is out there and the seller contract is out there it's all open source right so you would grab those contracts deploy your own contract with the parameters that you decide so you would pick your fees right and then you go to sommelier forum and you say hey here's a pure some back test results here's a contract that I deployed I want to run this as a Som strategy there's usually a discussion period for you know about a week again these are just kind of informal things then after that discussion period is when the formal vote comes you would submit your actual governance proposal

to have that smart contract accepted by the Som chain there's a 48-hour voting period if there's enough turnout and enough support that smart contract will be automatically accepted by the Som chain and essentially start accepting signals from Strat from the strategist which you know is you in that case to start executing actions on that smart contract right okay that makes a lot of sense and so you know it seems like the the strategists really do play a very key role in this ecosystem just granted that if there are no great strategies uh deployed then as a user you know I might have a million dollars of funds just looking to you know find some yield but uh you know this wouldn't be an opportunity for me if I I didn't feel

comfortable with this strategy so how do you think about attracting more strategists to the ecosystem or if I'm a strategist you know am I trying to just spray and pray or is it about like having one really good you know maybe 10 yielding stable coin type or maybe like beating the ethereum stake rate uh strategy kind of something like that I think um you know it's it's a bit of it's a bit of both so generally um this is actually an Insight that I got from Zaki which is that you know with the the old kind of portfolio management version of sommelier where it's you know trading strategies portfolio management those are situations in which it's heavily dependent on like state-of-the-art bleeding edge Alpha right like to make

it you know as a Trader is is one thing but um with sellers V2 and you know defy Integrations and defy infrastructure you'd be surprised at how many like really low-hanging food strategies there are that just don't exist because the tools haven't existed up to this point right things like looping strategies things like delta neutral staking these are these do not require like massive amounts of uh you know off-chain Alpha and proprietary information really in some of these Pro some of these cases it's just you need someone who's doing the the computations right and you need a system that's able to run these strategies in a non-custodial decentralized transparent way so you

know I wouldn't I think there is a world here where it's like you know people have ideas in D5 people have ideas all the time especially in this market the people who are left are the ones who are really deep in the technology right they they know their stuff they care more about things like Alpha and you know research um and so you know we think with V2 there's a huge space of strategies that's been largely unexplored in the space and some really low hanging fruit so hopefully that attracts you know attracts people you know Seven Seas as a team is going to continue to develop these strategies uh you know we we have some low hanging fruit ones that we see that no one's doing that we're going to be developing but you know with sellers V2 we think that the technology is

attractive enough for um and offering opportunities for strategists that just don't Exist Elsewhere yeah if you pull up the D5 llama yields dashboard you know I scroll through there uh you know almost daily and you see these massive Arbitrage opportunities that sometimes have decent size to them and it's especially in a market like this right like you mentioned nobody's left so these opportunities do exist and they very much so are low hanging fruit which is this fascinating uh side of crypto and defy that you know markets are very much so not efficient at this point in time so I think this is actually a great use case for Bear Market strategies um and so as the strategist like you get the opportunity to do a lot of this computation off chain even though it's a non-custodial position right all the the

funds remain on what you know currently on ethereum um and so if you you know run some calculations and determine that you need to rebalance a specific position or strategy uh what does that process look like as a strategist because I I understand you go through the the validators or the the song governance yes um so yeah I can you know do seven C's has spent a lot of time you know with this integration with Tom so I can speak and like it looks good detail I won't go too into the weeds but basically um you you can't you have an algorithm off chain you make a rebalance decision uh and now you have to get that executed on the smart contract uh that lives on a theorem so the flow is that um there's a you know the validator the sommelier

validators are running software called Steward Steward is essentially the interface between the validators and the strategists and what stewards Steward allows strategists to do is take those rebalance decisions send them in some you know in some specified way over you know technically it's a grpc call and uh so that's the interface right so strategists first of all can see what they're allowed to call it's what Stewart exposes to them uh that can be a function like rebalance it can be a function called buy or sell essentially it's providing the interface to validators once that's sent to validators through Steward again so the strategist right now sends the request

to all the validators through Steward the validators come to consensus there um and then the process kicks off to actually submit that to ethereum so you know there's a relayer the signal goes through the sommelier gravity Bridge onto theorem and it gets executed but as far as the strategist it's concerned Steward really provides this very simple interface essentially like uh you know it's it's almost like as simple as a HTTP request right it's it's uh it's capabilities that most data science or you know like fintech or whatever kind of firms already have and this is actually another thing that we consider

a value prop of this system which is that you can take people who have very limited blockchain experience but they have Alpha and they have strategies right and they're now able to run that through this interface of Stewart I was lucky I don't know if you want to add more detail on that no I think that was I mean you've been you've been in the battle to execute um you know one of our one of our strategists uh you know over the last few weeks did have some challenges with the with the execution process um uh you know and that's a big part of the sort of just maturity of the whole protocol on software check is you know multiple layers of you know one of the reasons this you know has taken a while

and is like it's a complicated protocol and uh you know we started out with this like a based strategy where like execution risk was zero right it was just all in like stable coins and Ave and it was like okay like what what what's the worst thing that can happen like we miss out on a small amount of yield right and then we moved into these uh uh trading strategies where you know we're both we're trading like blue chip liquid assets again you know you you there's some opportunity cost potentially too but you're not like at risk of catastrophe with sellers V2 as we start entering into these more exotic positions that you're able to take the risk of loss on execution risk is is going to be higher um and you know hopefully we can take

all of the things that we've learned over the last you know six months or so of execution on chain via the song protocol um and provide a higher higher level of um of risk but you know we're also we're starting out um you know seven seas's first strategy is gonna is not doing anything too crazy with these uh uh stable coin positions I will I will add one thing which is that um there is latency introduced by this system right like we're essentially Somalia is essentially adding an intermediate layer between the decision to make to execute an action and then the actual execution that happens on ethereum uh so right now that latency is on the order of like a few minutes uh which can be significant I mean that

does preclude running you know some really high frequency strategies um so you know there are strategies right now that aren't actually a good fit for this system but that just kind of comes with the territory how old do you think about risk like is there any type of Insurance Fund um in case of like a smart contract hack or anything like that and if not is that like a thought to implement maybe in the future yeah we haven't you know we've mostly taken an approach to risks that has been investing heavily in auditing um uh and so you know we we have made a massive and very long term really investment in auditing of our protocol of our work and our protocols um itch you know the concept of

insurance like both doing an insurance fund and one of the other things that we've been actively in conversation with is there are a couple of actual smart contract providers out there as well and some potential users of the protocol have been interested in like actual Insurance um so both of these are are possibilities um and potentially something that we would like to do in the future and then I guess just like when I think of yearn like I think I'm pretty sure that a lot of their vaults are managed by like a multi-sig but then you guys actually have a validator set would you say that the decentralization is kind of one of the main value propositions of sommelier and is that like maybe something that might lure in institutions so one of the things that we wanted to be able to do with sommelier

um was to be both she gave a lot of comfort to people who are both on the um strategy side and the user side of like where that where are they actually dealing with from a regulatory point like are they actually dealing with a decentralized protocol or is this just like uh uh an excessively complicated multi-sig um and so one of the things that we've really wanted was both you know this idea that the strategists are making recommendations to the validator set the validators that are coming to consensus um and then and then trades get executed right so they're so you know what are the things that can that this is is helping one is you know the development of Steward can actually implement the

kinds of protections against strategists doing something malicious or making a mistake um that you can actually Implement on the smart contract layer there's a lot of things that come back on the audit layer and it's like oh like you can't actually like here's a malicious thing that a strategist could do like could we prevent this in the smart contract and it's like there's a variety of reasons end up being no but actually ends up being possible to to sort of make that something that could never get that Stewart would be able to like sort of protect against so that's like one uh advantage of the architecture um and the decentralization the other thing is it's like you know it's just like the people who are actually participating in the execution these strategies are always changing just as like validators come and we even join

the system and there's like sort of a consistency to the system even though if you change all the actors so like strategistly new strategists come in like the whole system just keeps working um and I think that's really the difference between something like urine which is very dependent on like unorganizational structure which is embedded in the Dao but is like a static organizational structure and a protocol like sommelier where like all the players can come and go and the system will just autonomously keep going so Sam mentioned institutions as potential uh potential advocates for you know depositing into Somalia I'm curious if you've ever thought of you know Dow treasuries as a point of emphasis you know there's some 10 billion dollars in

Dow treasuries and there's just such a nice yeah it's such an exciting opportunity I think we're seeing you're going to see like we like we are all part of what is likely to be for the at least the next you know at least until interest rates turn around is likely to be the great uh Dow treasury land grab and uh um you know we are we are going we're we're going to we're riding into that war like everyone else um you know we've been we've seen you know like you know almost everyone in Defy is like fighting over like trying to manage a chunk of the uh make your PSM um and we're certainly thinking about that uh there's a lot of nft treasuries out there there's a lot like you know

it's like in a world where you know treasury rates are hitting four and a half percent you know it is pulling money out of crypto in general um and the and the uh you know what remains what's captive is like what a lot of Defy is fighting over um and so uh and we're we're here to go fight that fight too and uh yeah we I agree the Dow treasuries are gonna be and we think that things like uh uh the the real yield USD uh seller are going to be differentiated products that will offer a better place in the sort of risk return uh Paradigm than uh other competing opportunities

do any of the you know current back tests give any indication of what a potential yield on this real yield USD seller could could kind of lead to uh they do we are going to be releasing uh all of that information very soon um probably tomorrow actually on the Somalia Forum so I'm gonna just uh leave a little bit there maybe like leave the give some high level numbers all right come on give it to us give it to us yeah okay so here's the thing caveats is that I don't you know the back test it's very hard to adjust to like factor in Market impact right so it's really hard to say how this thing's going to perform on like tens of millions of dollars but uh in our current tests you know we're

looking at something like six percent uh on stables and a lot of that is coming from being able to do uni V3 optimizations and you know optimizing tick ranges basically now that is that is exciting yeah that's super exciting especially during a bear Market I feel like that could fill up pretty quick are you guys gonna have any caps on that and then also I was curious how much thought went into kind of the design of providing historical performance of a a particular Vault because if I'm looking to deposit no one of course I want to see well I was just done well is this done bad um we we aren't we don't have plans for capping for capping right now uh I think the the nice thing with the smart contract architecture is that can kind

of be flexible like you can never kick out deposits but uh there is flexibility for a strategist to kind of set a cap dynamically which we think is like a feature so no plans yet but we'll have to see how you know how interest actually affects the performance and could you repeat the question about um you know I think it was about historical performance yeah absolutely I was just curious like what kind of tools you provide different users in order to kind of look at historical performance at different Vault strategies yeah so our front end as it you know the psalm front end as currently exists essentially tracks you know there's a there's a couple of metrics there the existing products track token price so

by token price what I mean is this the strategy share token um you can actually you know the way it works is that when you go in Min shares in the contract there's a price for that token so performance is easily tracked by just looking at the price of that token right for how the the value of the assets that you can redeem it for um there's I believe this currently plans to completely revamp uh the UI because again sellers V2 is this new thing um so there's a lot more metrics there you know like benchmarks things like not just token price but um you know like a history of rebalance decisions right um so but I will say that the whole all that information is also available on

chain at the Smart contract level so that's you know this is virtue of wallets you can just go and see everything that happens and it's it's much easier to do that with these sellers than it is a lot of other products like it's not so easy to do that with urine from what I can tell but with sellers you know all decisions happen you like it's very easy to go on etherscan and see is my point um nothing's hidden you can also uh go take a look at we have D5 llama integration as well yeah we like to shout out dfilam all the time they're doing God's work over there but uh I feel like we've already taken up a lot of your time do you guys want to tell people where they can find you uh I'm at zmonion on Twitter it's usually the best

z-m-a-n-i-a-n on Twitter is I'm at call me son with two ends on Twitter uh I don't tweet anything but you know I'm very active and I I'm an observer awesome great well thanks so much for coming back on we'll have to do it again soon