How an Anti-MEV Activist Trapped the Sandwich Bot jaredfromsubway.eth: Uneasy Money

Transcript

Hey everyone, I'm Cain Warwick and welcome to Unchained Money because what happens on [music] chain never stays on chain. Before we begin, here is a word from the sponsors that make this show possible. >> This episode is brought to you by Cape, America's privacy-first mobile carrier. Same premium service you'd expect from any other carrier, but designed so your number, your location, and your data actually stay yours. Get 33% off 6 months at cape.co/unchained. >> Hey guys, I'm here with my co-host Taylor Monahan, security expert, and Luca Netz, CEO of Pudgy Penguins {slash} Igloo Inc. Um,

so uh actually before we get to this EF one uh cuz this just reminded me um there's a new uh Ocap Games set of cards uh that's out that's like uh Pudgy Penguins and Burbs mix mixed together. Is that right? >> Yeah. So uh available in 1,800 Target. So if you're listening to this in the United States, go to your local Target and go grab some. >> Yeah, I think uh I think I'm trying to scrounge up a box from somewhere.

>> I'll just send you some. Just send me your address. I got you. >> First segment, Eat Labs breaks from the EF. What is Eat Labs you probably think. Um, so Eat Labs is a new nonprofit R&D lab um whose stated mission is to make Ethereum the settlement layer of the global economy and accelerate the institutional supercycle. Uh look, I really hope supercycle was not put into their like incorporation documents.

We really shouldn't mention supercycle uh ever. Um our good friend Suzu, uh the guy who coined that, um not the best guy, not the best dude. And every time anyone ever said super cycle, like all the prices go down. And I mean, here we are today. So, let's strike super cycle from the record, hopefully. Let's let's try and find a different different term. So, so the founders um are a bunch of ex-EFP people, Barnaby, etc. etc. etc.

Um, and the anchor funders are Bitmain, and they they all put in uh ETH or cash into this thing. >> Right. >> That wasn't clear to me. I don't know. Some form of money. >> Some form of money, for sure. >> I hope they put ultra sound money into this thing. I would If they didn't, that seems like a mistake. I guess though the only the only downside in giving people ETH to do something is then they sell it and then everyone hates them, so you kind of you kind of stuck there.

So anyway, they gave them some money in some form, maybe stables. And they're starting off This is the the only like a little bit of a downer for me was they're starting off their research target the team is leading with is the so-called 15-minute finality problem. That seems like a dumb problem to start off with. I like I don't know. Like I don't think anyone cares about that. Genuinely. Like what do we What is What's the benefit from a institutional super cycle perspective of this 15-minute finality problem? Okay?

Do you know? >> [laughter] >> I have no idea. >> You have no idea? Like >> So this is my thing is like Okay, there's a lot of people who think and they're not wrong, to be clear, but like it's not the full story, right? A lot of people think that like Vitalik is the problem with the app because Vitalik has his own personal goals and way of viewing the world, and if you want to do things that are different, then it's good luck or whatever. That's like a like a very consistent narrative out of the EF, especially with like the EF dissenters.

However, that is not the full story. And so my my biggest hesitation, I'm not against EthLogs existing, but my biggest hesitation with it is it is a lot of EF people. Like at the end of the day, it is. They're ex-EF people now. So you can say that they were unhappy or whatever, but like in my opinion, the biggest problem with the EF is like they they're not operating at scale, and I'm not I'm not convinced that taking a whole bunch of people who have been at the EF >> of people from EF. >> And and so >> take is everyone at the EF is bad.

>> It's not that everyone is bad, but I I think that like you never joined you never joined the EF if you weren't of a certain let's say like approach and mindset. >> Mindset. You're Yeah, your mindset is so so slicing off a subset of the people of the EF, even if they're like conscientious objectors who left or been fired or whatever happened, uh is not necessarily going to get you a different outcome. I don't know. I don't know about that. That feels a bit unfair to me, like you know, there's always people in an org who are like the ones agitating for change or saying like, "Oh, we should do things differently." Like, you know, this what 100 At one point there was like 150 people in the EF or whatever.

I'm sure there were people like even Tomas, like, you know, they I know they kicked him out, but but like there were people that were like commercially minded in there, but also Ethereum-minded. Like surely if you give them their own vehicle, I I'm I want to be a bit more >> I hope. I hope. >> But I I see your point. The risk is you just get a mini EF with the same kind of mindset, right? >> Yeah. And And you know what? Maybe it's better. Like maybe maybe you do you take away some of the incentives or some of the the culture and that's what was missing.

But I'm We will see. We will see. I think that like an org like this needs a strong I think I think it really needs strong leadership. And I also think it needs a like strong way of like setting goals and then measuring like success towards those goals. And I think that's that's like the key thing that the EF has not It's never taken that approach to like building, to what they're shipping, to their priorities. Um and I'm I'm not Like some of these guys have been at the EF for 7 years. Like I'm just not convinced that that's how they they operate, but we'll see.

>> Yeah. Yeah, it's it's interesting. I mean, there was there was a point that was made uh around like you know independent, etc. if if you know Joe Lubin is one of the like anchor funders, you know, how will they stay independent, etc. Um like my my sense is if the people who are funding you are some of the largest ETH holders, you have to hope that those people want the price of ETH to go up, right? And they're going to want you to focus on things that will be meaningful.

Even the institutional adoption thing, supercycle notwithstanding, being being in their mandate, right? Um says to me that they're like thinking about this from a more commercially minded standpoint. That That's why it just feels weird. The 15-minute finality thing like Maybe I'm [ __ ] I mean, I am [ __ ] but like I just [laughter] that's not on my top 10 list of things that if you suddenly had like the most cracked researchers, you'd be like, "Let's start with that." Like >> Yeah. Yeah.

>> Maybe someone can convince me as to why that's that's a good problem to start with. Um But yeah, it doesn't it doesn't feel like there's any I guess >> I also >> just feels feels weird. >> it's also the framing of it. It all This always gets me and it's like to me this is the biggest indicator of like like when I look at founders and stuff and whether I whether I'm going to bet on them being successful or not. Like what what the freak is the 15-minute finality problem? Like what is that? How does that guide you? How does that shape your goals? How do you measure your success, right? It's a research problem.

Do you know what I mean? Whereas >> it is a research lab, in fairness. Like they've got to research something. >> Yeah, but I mean, can we frame it like I don't just something like either institutional facing or user facing or like some you know, something that you're going to achieve >> to the end user, yeah, exactly. Yeah, like and this is where I say, you know, I I really tend to agree with your take of if you take people out of the EF, you know, are they going to be able to communicate the intent behind their actions well? Like have they learned to do that at the EF? They certainly haven't learned to do that at the EF.

>> Right. >> Like inscrutable communications is definitely one of the EFs all exports to the world, right? And so, you know, I like I don't think they learned uh I don't think they learned that. So, like that that is a bit uh that is a bit on on brand, I guess, right? Like for someone who's left the EF that they're like, "Oh, here's this research problem that we're going to frame again, in like some weird inscrutable way that only we care about, even if there are benefits." Like the fact that we're sitting here going like, "What the [ __ ] is this?" Like that is >> That's what I mean. Just frame it. Just just flip it on its head. Tell me what the end the >> The benefit. What's the use case? What's the

>> make it and make it beneficial to someone, please. Like, yeah, we have got to get out of this like I call it like the theoretical research mindset where they just they sit in silos and they research things and it has very little connection to uh the real world. Cuz it's theoretical. >> at like with with with Abstract, right? Like, you got to you got to pitch different people. You got to pitch like, you know, uh builders users whatever. Like, you know, uh the the pitch from Abstract to like then consumer adoption, but then you guys are like, "All right, we need to pitch builders

better cuz we need some DeFi [ __ ] Otherwise, like consumers are going to, you know, get lose money or whatever, not have any liquidity, not be able to sell stuff, not be able to trade. Um like, uh what's your what's your sense in terms of like the external ETH comms around like, "Okay, we've got a new group of people that are going to like really solve some problems." Like, what are the problems that they should be going out and solving and and telling people they're going to solve? >> It's an interesting one because I think like I always felt like Vitalik always had a good finger on the pulse in terms of like what Ethereum needed to succeed.

And I think his problems that I think he's addressed, that I think they've been working to solve, I mean, the core foundation's been working to solve, are probably the right ones. Obviously, this is like a different group. And so, when I look at this group, um you know, obviously, it's like the big treasury holders. I'm kind of with you, Ken. I don't know what 15-minute finality, like, what difference that makes. Clearly, it makes a difference to somebody though. Like, I would probably take the bet and trust, you know, the B and R team and other of those teams that are having conversations with institutions that like that is a problem somehow, some way. Like I don't think that's not I don't think that's just

like they picked, you know, the >> No, it's probably not arbitrary. It's probably not That's fair. It's probably not arbitrary. Like they probably picked something that they think will be beneficial. It's just like fact that all three of us are like the [ __ ] is this thing? This is not amazing. >> Yeah, and to that point, like I I think their qualm, I think just Ethereum's qualm has always been communication, right? Which is actually like a byproduct of I think the giga brains that work there.

Like I've always found that like being super a super smart, talented developer and being a communicator is not necessarily synonymous. Like I've actually found You guys will find this funny, but I've actually had many problems over the years, probably over the last 5, 6 years, where I do my whole like motivational, inspirational thing, and the developers like in the group are just like, "Oh my god, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like this is not good." >> Dude, oh, trust. Like I have this problem as well. >> Yeah, they're like, "This is not good." >> crack guys, sometimes I'll be like, "All right, I'm going to like really like rev them up." And they're like, "I'm now petrified."

>> Yeah. >> Like, "Oh, man." Yeah, I I agree. I agree. It can be it can be hard uh be hard to like follow through on that stuff. Um So, yeah, I mean like I really want to be bullish on this. Like genuinely, I really want to be bullish on it. Um I think there is uh a huge benefit to having uh even even if they're not like super independent like having different voices with like slightly different mandates out there, like competitive pressure, etc. etc. Um whether they can actually deliver

something into the you know, uh structure that exists for like consensus in in Ethereum as in like whether they can ship something, you know, do a bunch of research, you still have to turn it into an EIP, you still have to get through governance, you still have to get it to the validator. Like there's there's a process here. Obviously coming from the EF, they should understand that, I guess. But you know, whether like this effort is rejected by the host is is kind of remains to be seen, right? Like do they just kind of ignore these guys now and go ah, we don't really care what you guys are doing. Um we've got our own road map. Um is it remains to be seen, but you know, it does it does feel like Ethereum

waking up a little bit and saying like, okay, we've got to we've got to invest more money in like making the product better. Product is the network. The network has features. Make better features, improve the existing features. Like it's it's pretty straightforward so. Cool. Um I guess let's let's move on to our next segment. Unless you guys have anything else to add. Um So uh this one caught me by surprise and you never know with a raise, right? Like when did it happen?

Um but FOMO announced a raise of $75 million, um which like was a bit, you know, a bit uh surprising to me and impressive. It's the biggest raise that we've seen in at least a few months, I I think that I can remember. Um So [snorts] yeah, it's it's uh it Of course, again, you know, like did they raise this a year ago and they're just announcing it now? It's hard to say. Um but but yeah >> They they raised this recently. I'm an investor in this one, Kate. I'm and I'm really close with the founder, so I have a I have an opinion here. But uh >> Yeah, let's let's hear it. Let's hear

it. >> Okay, yeah. Tell me, what is what is FOMO? >> It is >> What? >> easily the most impressive mobile trading on-chain trading app out there by like a Texas mile. And these two founders are absolute killers. They're going to take this thing to the finish line. They're going to sell this either to Robinhood for a billion or two billion bucks or they're going to they're going to they're going to slam this one out of the park. I I and I knew that when I met them a year and some change ago. Um the guy sat on a call and says, "We're going to take this public." Uh for like within like two minutes. And I'm like, "What's the outcome?" He's like, "We're going to unbelievably delusionally optimistic. I respect that because I'm delusionally

optimistic. And so when I hear somebody delusionally optimistic and then like has some brain power behind it, um I so I invested in them and they're just absolute killers. They have probably the most impressive onboarding strategy today. Uh their marketing guys that they're using are, you know, as a marketing guy in Web 2, are best in class. Their platform is best in class. Uh if you've actually used it and you appreciate taste, whoever's doing their front end has unbelievable taste. The back end is just so impressive. I buy Solana and then I buy some Bitcoin and then I buy some Zcash and then I go buy some memes and I

can do all of that within 60 seconds. Feels great. Gives me like a phantom style dopamine as I trade on the platform. It's well-deserved. And um and I think the rate I think the people who who led this round are going to make some money. Usually you see things like this, you're like, those guys are not going to make any money. Uh you know, that was exit liquidity for the venture investors. I don't think that or or for the team or something. I I don't think so. I think these guys are going to take it way further. Um and I think if you look at it on its face, I think people are like, well, it has a lot of volume for trenches and like it it had its moments where I think maybe people thought where it was really hot, where I think people thought it

was, you know, performing a function that that, you know, seemed may maybe pretty niche, which is like you know, it's a great trench app, right? Because you can go and the beauty [clears throat] of it is you can buy like a you know, a uh 20,000 bucks >> like meme It was very meme heavy, right? Originally, like memes, social trading, copy trading, following people, etc. That was like the the initial kind of impetus, I guess, for for their traction, right? So, um Yeah, I mean, but it it feels like the I guess it's not like, you know, it feels Solana-ish, right? Like in in their approach to the things, right? But

they've obviously expanded outside of that. Um but yeah, it definitely was one of the Solana things that that I was watching and going, yeah, like these guys are are very focused on like the the thing that they uh they're trying to achieve is like social trading layer, and then they've just expanded out from that. Um which, you know, as you say, feels like quite uh Phantom-esque, right? Like just nail the nail the primary use case and then, you know, which is trading, and then expand out from there. >> Yep.

>> And the social element's great. They would hate me for not even mentioning that in my whole little shell. But yeah, the the the the social element of it, I think there a lot of people have tried to crack this. To me, I think they're the furthest ahead cracking this across both tradfi and crypto. Right? Robinhood's trying this now, killer core feature in Robinhood as of recent. Doesn't feel as good as what they got going on. So, they figured something out there. It's going to be interesting to see. >> All right, so Wait.

Sorry, this might be stupid. Like, how does core to wallet, yes? Like >> Yeah, but it's like this is the thing, right? >> Just but like approach from a completely different >> Just a different angle, right? Like it's not it's not designed as wallet in that like, hey, we're going to custody your assets. >> They don't say wallet literally anywhere, but I'm looking at the UI and I'm looking at I've never used it before. >> Yeah, like yeah, exactly. It looks like a wallet. >> It doesn't say wallet anywhere. >> No, exactly, cuz it's not about the wallet. It's not about custody, right?

Like wallets start from this like model of we're going to hold your assets and trading is Yeah. >> Added on. >> Added on, right? Like that was, you know, all of the wall especially coming from Ethereum land, right? Like all of the wallets in Ethereum were like, "We will stop you from losing your money." >> Yeah. >> And sometimes that was it. There's no step two. It was just like that's all we're going to do. And and, you know, in Solana That's why I say like feel Solana-esque, right? Like you know, Solana was like, "Well, no, like people want to trade, right? Like that's their primary thing." Fact that you have to hold assets or you have to deal with custody in order to trade is somewhat orthogonal to the requirement for you wanting to trade, right? So, you know, start trade first and then

uh and then expand. You know, when I when I think back to like some of the things that that, you know, we got really wrong um on the Infinitex side, like this is one of them, right? Like we we started from this model of you know, uh even to the point of like building like on-chain vaults as one of like the primary use cases of like, you know, you've got to protect people's assets, like that's the most important thing, custody, etc. Um but actually the most important thing is like the you know, the thing you want to do. The most important thing is the trading. Like people want to trade, right? They don't care necessarily so much about about how, you know, they're custodying

assets. And also, this is where I think the most interesting thing to me and and Luca, maybe you can validate this, is um the founders were saying like a lot of their users are non-crypto users. Which is not something that you hear, you know, they're like they didn't really go after necessarily a crypto-native audience. They went after a more normie audience and like removed the friction, etc. Um And yeah, I just think that like that it's it's a one of the few cases uh in the last couple years of like a team actually managing to like bring people into crypto because they want to do the job and kind of getting out of the way and not not making it like all

about crypto. >> Yeah. I I I I think they have the best go-to-market from like a trading app that I've ever seen in crypto. They they've they've found the right guys, frankly, and they've built >> the right show. >> The other thing The other thing I think, you know, Luca, you probably could comment on this is like the VCs they raised from, it wasn't Multicoin. >> No. >> Like it's like, you know, three non-crypto VCs that don't do crypto things. Like they're clearly thinking about this as like a finance app, not a not a, you know, crypto-native app.

>> Robinhood story that just happens to have on-chain assets. If the world is going on-chain, like this is the Robinhood on chain with social >> Yeah. >> That's the story that they're telling. >> I mean, this type this feels very similar to what we were talking about earlier with the app, right? And like yeah, exactly what you said, Came right? Like you can think of it as a wallet, like you can enter the game as like a wallet because people need to put their money somewhere and access it and hold it. Or you can go for the end goal.

And you say like what do people actually want to do? What do they want to accomplish? What does success look like? In this case, obviously they're all in on trading. That makes total sense, especially this day and age. Um and then you work backwards from there. Rather than like then being like, okay, so what features do we put in the wallet, right? No, no. Okay, so people want to trade. People want What does that look like, right? And obviously, especially today, the social element of the meme coin element, like that stuff is is huge. Like Robinhood is trying to catch up here as well, right?

You work backwards though. And then you kind of end up with a thing that looks like a wallet, but you've actually the way that it was built and every single product choice was built in a completely different way, which then manifests in a completely different way. And also just you prioritize things differently. Like why like you don't need to have like 8,000 different seed phrase things, right? Like that's the least important bit of it, right? The most important bit is the trading. And so when you work backwards, a lot of times you just get really different and and usually like better outcomes. But it also just like I just put the team in a different mindset from day one.

Like this is one thing I learned the hard way, is like >> Yeah. >> is like when you're always you're always judging yourself by sort of like how you've defined success from the get-go, it's very easy to stay on track and build sort of like the right things. Whereas you if you start with like this 15-minute functionality problem that you're trying to solve, like what you like how do you measure like what is success? Like solving like okay, and then what? Right? Whereas if you're like, okay, we want to accomplish this. We want users to be able to do this.

Success is when a million users are trading over this amount or are, you know, our 30-day MAUs are this or whatever it is. Like it's just a much easier way to prioritize things, to choose the right features, uh and it also I think definitely helps with the fund raise. Don't be a wallet trying to raise funds, guys. Like [laughter] >> Yeah. >> terrible business model. >> Strongly strongly agree. You know, even though wallets are like you being a wallet is like kind of a hard requirement for getting people to trade, right? But I I think this is also the difference. This is The difference is, you know, if you're using Apple Pay and people are putting 50 bucks, 100

bucks, 500 bucks, whatever, 1,000 bucks. Uh this is not their life savings. The stakes are on some level much lower, right? Um and and again, you know, trying to rebuild wallet infra from the ground up, which is which is, you know, what we did at Infinex. Like we spent months and months thinking about like all of these like edge cases of custody of like, okay, we've got passkeys. What if someone loses the passkey? How do they deal with that? You know, like and it was all predicated, and this is again probably coming from the wrong direction. It was all predicated on like, you know, a whale is going to put $10 million in this platform.

>> Yeah. >> Right? And they did, but that's a different user to someone who's putting 50 bucks in through Apple Pay. >> Yeah. >> And like trying to have a system that manages both of those well is really hard. And and you know, it's it's just not the right um, not the right focus. And and so, you know, I think that these guys like starting from and and, you know, uh, like the uh MoonPay guys did this as well, right? Like they, you know, they built a proof of concept app for like here's how we onboard people really quickly into a mobile, you know, interface. Like it wasn't even the point of it, it was just like to show off their their rails. Um,

uh, so yeah, so I I think there's a there's a very, uh, good lesson in this for like crypto founders of like actually crypto has some really cool stuff, but you need to approach it from first principles of like what is what is a non-crypto user care about? They care about the job. They want to trade. They want to make money. They want to buy meme coins. They want to do social trading, etc. Um, the fact that they have actually, and I hope this is true, you know, the fact that they've onboarded more normie users is super bullish for crypto. Like if we can find ways to do that, that's amazing, like um, the more, you know, the intersection of crypto and and normie land happens, the the, you know,

more likely it is that we survive this bear market, so. >> Yeah. I think this approach is just it's terrifyingly refreshing for crypto. I can see why they raised so much money even in a bear, right? Because literally they can see the story. They can see the exit. >> these seeds, right? Like >> Yeah, because it was like, you know, you can you can see the story, you can see, I mean, you can also it doesn't it definitely doesn't hurt that you can see the exit. You can see multiple exits here. So as an investor that makes your your choices a lot easier. But I do think like just I think it's I think there is market demand for all this new like not necessarily crypto stuff, but financial stuff. Like the markets and

like Robinhood has been leading the way in a lot of this area, right? But like there is getting normies, I guess, access to that in a way that appeals to them. I think is is something that crypto >> And no token. Right? >> They have a token? There's no token? >> There's no token. I know. >> Incredible things happening. >> Yeah, no token. And so like these are not people that are like trading on FOMO. So that I haven't seen anything and Luca you could maybe tell us, right?

But like these are not people that are like airdrop farmers. >> No. Yeah. >> Right? Like they're not like it's not like, you know, people from West Africa or something that are like pretending to use the thing to farm an airdrop, right? Like this is this is like actual users actual trading. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um all right, cool. Well, nice investment, Luca. Good work. Um >> I'm jealous. >> Let's uh let's go to ads um and Luca, we will uh see you later um if you're dropping off here.

>> I'll give it 10 more minutes. >> I got I got some >> 10 more minutes? All right, let's go to ads and be back in All right, nice. >> If you hold crypto on your phone, your biggest vulnerability isn't your wallet, it's your carrier. AT&T, Verizon, and T-Mobile have been breached again and again. And SIM swaps are still one of the easiest ways for attackers to drain accounts. That's where Cape comes in, America's privacy-first mobile carrier. Same premium service, but Cape rotates the identifier on your SIM every 24 hours, deletes your call and text metadata after a day, and protects against SIM swaps with a 24-word recovery phrase that only you control.

You also get two middle-to-end encrypted secondary numbers for banking and sign-ups, so you stop handing your real number to every app that asks. Go to cape.co/unchained and use code Unchained for 33% off your first 6 months. >> All right, we are back. Uh so, we've had uh a similar-ish segment before, the courts getting mad about crypto stuff and AI slop. Uh I think we were like mashing them up here, right? So, um Tay, you can you can walk us through this one uh if if you don't mind.

>> Yeah, I mean, this is it's a it's definitely like a story that flew under the radar, but it just had me laughing quite hard. So, I guess the there's some I don't actually know what the dispute is, but there's some dispute with CryptoPunks Larva Labs. They're being sued for something. But, the person doing the suing, apparently, their entire suit has just been like AI slop like constantly, like non-stop. Um and so, obviously, this has been annoying the defendants the CryptoPunk guys.

But, I guess also it got to the point where it uh really got on the nerve of the judge who was overseeing all these this like back and forth and stuff. And the judge in this case finally like just put their foot down and uh has basically ordered that if the plaintiff, the person that's doing the suing if they're going to respond to anything else, if they're going to like pursue this case at all, any like at all they have to handwrite all their filings from now on as like a preventative measure to hopefully make them dissuade them from using AI to just like form all these these

arguments and these briefs and stuff. Um and I've just I've just been laughing. I've been following more broadly I've been following there have been a lot more like legitimate lawyers getting caught with like hallucinated filings. Um but this is definitely one of the more interesting ones cuz it kind of seems like the point of it is not >> Are these guys using Sonnet? Like what like what is going on like what what models are they using? Like models don't hallucinate like really obvious dumb [ __ ] like this anymore.

>> So, there's two things that they do is they especially with court filings that they hallucinate. The first is that they and this is not this is probably what you're thinking of this is not so much a a problem anymore, but with the early models it was. They would just make up case numbers. >> Oh, yeah. Like that I get, but that was like 03 mini like >> Yeah. >> Like this like open is not going to make up a case number I don't think. >> They're They're getting They're Yeah, it's pretty rare. They So, what's more common these days is that they they uh hallucinate the sort of the takeaway of the case like very badly.

So, if you cuz the whole the whole thing with these court cases like you're citing case law you're citing other cases that have been settled as evidence as to why you're right as like this is the precedent that we're going to rely on and this why you should allow me to sue this person whatever it is. Um the AI will definitely still like cite a case, but then the takeaway meaning like the the sort of one-liner like this case upheld that XYZ property rights is whatever.

>> The judge like no, bro. That's that's >> And then yeah, you look at the actual case and you're like wait, that's not actually what happened at all. Like at all at all. >> It like it look I I I I hate to do this to whoever these idiots are that are using AI for these things, but this whole thing sounds like skill issue. This is bad prompting. Like I'm I'm sorry, but it's just bad prompting. Like prompt better. >> And so >> You're doing a bad job. >> The And this again, this is a thing that's been happening a lot with the courts. And the courts are kind of been a precarious position. And I've been One reason I've been reading these a lot is because it kind of feels similar to like

the bug bounty program right now. Right? Like you people who have bug bounty programs are just like the data was law. But you're kind of between and the courts are the same, right? You're between a rock and a hard place. Cuz on the one hand >> Have a job. >> You want people to report. You don't want the friction to be that high. And like the courts are you know, philosophically, like they're all these things, but people have access to them. You should be able to bring a case against someone who has wronged you, all of this stuff, right? Same thing for bug bounties. Like you want people to report. And so the more friction you add the less uh like you basically you remove access. And that's has bad outcomes.

So >> Yeah, I mean the bug bounty thing is like don't put, you know, make it easy, right? Like so few people will you know, the premise being like so few people will bother to report bugs that like making it harder for them is just going to get like worse outcomes cuz you'll end up having a genuine report of this like I [ __ ] these guys, I'm not going to report this, right? >> Right. >> Now it's like you have to handwrite your bug report and mail [laughter] it. Like that's not going to happen. No one's doing that, right? So >> Yeah. Well, and it's so it's it's just interesting cuz the courts are basically like okay, we're not It's also it's different when you have a plaintiff who isn't actually a lawyer, like they're representing themselves.

The lawyers, they just they find them, they sanction them, they do all sorts of things. >> Right. But if they're pro se, they just they go "Yeah." >> Like what are you going to do? Like they don't know. >> up to court, right? Like you're allowed to be like Like you can just be like, "Hey, I'm suing I don't >> This is a fundamental right of yours is you can get justice. So, but yeah, the courts are like, yeah, we want you to get justice, but like stop wasting our time with this AI slop, please. >> What's the solution to that? >> Well, so now they're making them handwrite their handwrite their arguments.

>> That's not a real solution. That's not a real solution. That's the uh yeah. >> I mean, they've been throwing out cases, they've been sanctioning, they've been fighting. There have been lawyers that have like basically like are going through like disbarment processes because they refuse Well, usually it's when they like they ship a bunch of AI slop, they deny that it's AI slop, they do it again, they deny it again, and but yeah, I mean, you get disbarred for this. Like it's their rules. >> Yeah. >> But you can't yeah, pro se lawyer or pro se plaintiff, you can't.

Like they're not >> Okay, there's a couple there's a couple of things that are like interesting, right? Cuz like I'm sure if you went back to the '80s or something, right? Um you know, there was there would be some similar debate of like, you're not allowed to use Microsoft Word in my court because you're just copy-pasting things and getting things wrong or whatever. Um I don't know. I don't know about like I don't know what the Like I With all of these things, I always like think, okay, what's the end state? Right? Like there's tension at the moment, but what is the end state here in the market?

>> on a real solution. >> Well, like in the in the in the market for law, right? There must be a solution, which is now the cost of producing frivolous things is is much lower than the cost of like processing it, right? Like you got a judge that has to process Like the judge needs their own AI slop cannon. >> Yeah. >> That's the only Like they have you're going to have to build a thing where the judge can you know process all these things and the AI is just like it's stopped like fine then.

>> Yeah, fine. >> That's that's the only way. >> Yeah. >> Otherwise it's just going to work. >> And I think also making the AI the as the AI gets better and more nuanced will help a lot. Like the early especially like we've already seen it actually a bit but there were there was a like the four old days were just oh my god the number of people that were just coming in convinced that they had a critical vulnerability on a billion dollar protocol and that like they needed to stop like they had just been their brain was just taken over. That has actually decreased but not necessarily because there's like less stupid people. It's more that the models have just gotten um

that one they're better like finding things they're they're better at self-checking. They're also better at not like they used to shout at the user like oh yeah you did you found you found it you did it you did it. >> Yeah. >> Um and so now they're better at sort of tempering. >> OpenAI was really bad at this. They were really bad. >> I mean yeah we'd come in and they it would just be like you guys can't even imagine this. It would be a like [ __ ] like this you just scroll and the whole thing is like I found this critical vulnerability and the emergency like sound the alarms I need to contact like the TVL is this it's going to drain and then you'd have like the little

emojis and the little like >> [laughter] >> and you're just like >> Let's let's go let's see if we can move on. >> I would say if I can make those [ __ ] handwrite their [ __ ] it would have saved us a lot of time. I would just it would have. >> All right let's let's move on to our next story. The sandwich bot that got owned, got wrecked. Jared from Subway. So for the for the audience, who is who or what is Jared from Subway?

>> Jared from Subway, he's a sandwich bot. So you know, okay, so sandwiching is when you Okay, so before transactions are finalized on the blockchain, there's a period of time where they go into the mempool and this is it's a very brief period of time before they get like finalized. And so these bots go in and they look for opportunities and there's different strategies for making money. One of them is called sandwiching. And sandwiching is actually a bit high risk because what it means is that let's say you see a transaction for like a very large buy or sell of like a low liquid asset.

What they can do is they can actually put their own transaction in front of yours that will move the market a bit like on Uniswap, right? It'll move the market, it'll move the price a little bit. They know that you're not sophisticated and so you're you're just like looking to buy this money like this token or whatever. So yours will then go through and then on the other end they reverse out of it sort of. And so basically there's like this period of time they get into the position because they know that you're going to do something that's going to have an impact on the market and then they get out of the position and they they get to keep that difference.

The issue why it's a bit controversial is because they see what you're about to do and they cut in line and they move the market which means that you actually get a worse >> They they pay higher fees, right? They pay higher fees to extract >> Mhm. >> some value from the trade you're trying to do. >> Because if if they weren't there, then you would say got whatever 100 token X for one token Y, but because they are there, you only get 99 or whatever. And then they they keep the one or two or whatever.

So, that's what a sandwich attack is. It's It's just something that sort of happens. There's a lot of Over the last couple years, a lot of like the infrastructure system has decreased the like prevalence of this. There's a lot of things like the wallets and the users can do to like just not get completely raped by this stuff. Um but anyways, Jared from Subway is like sort of one of the most famous sandwich attack people. So, >> Cuz it has the dot F >> Yeah.

>> name as well, which is >> He's been He's been doing it for the like a very long amount of time. He has >> long time, right? Yeah. >> Like probably like 5 or 6 years now, yeah? >> Yeah, something like something like that. >> Yeah. And his strategies are also like He's just a because he's been doing this for so long, his strategies are He makes a lot of money doing this, which obviously impacts a lot more users. So, okay, that's the landscape. >> Including including sandwiching Vitalik, right? Like a few months ago.

>> Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he sandwiches everyone. Like it's And By the way, we're talking about this too. We talk about this as like this person who's like going around like chasing Vitalik. It's a bot. These are automated strategies. He has a bot who's looking for certain market conditions, certain things. Um and if there's opportunities to make money, then he the bot does that. Uh we like he's an automist, I'm pretty I don't I don't think anyone knows who he is. >> Yeah, he's not doxxed. >> And it's probably a lot I don't I don't actually know this, but in a lot of cases, these like MEV bots are actually like trading firms or like groups of people who are all working sort of together. It's not necessarily even just like one person

behind the screen. But yeah, they're automated strategies. So, that's where we're at. >> I've got to catch my flight. I'll see you guys uh see you guys >> All right. Thanks, Luca. See you soon. So yeah, so so that's the situation and then some enterprising young counter Mev activist, let's call them, um decided that they were going to teach Jared from Subway a lesson. And so >> So like I said, he's this Jared guy's running around the blockchain always trying to find these opportunities to sandwich and make

money. Um and so he saw an opportunity and it was sort of like a new one, I guess, because this attacker activist person has apparently like they they actually went and they deployed a whole bunch of contracts and tokens and all sorts of stuff in order to like really kind of trap Jared. It wasn't like a one-off uh like thing. It was like a It was like a dedicated plot to get this guy. Um but so I guess they yeah, so they deployed these things these things made it look like the like there was an

a very great opportunity to make money. Um and Jared sort of tested the waters. So like he was like, oh yeah, there's an like basically there's a there's a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff, but like these MEV bots like they'll they'll see opportunities, but they won't take them and then they'll sort of evaluate them and they'll write new rules and strategies to pick those up. And so basically he sees this opportunity that he wasn't taking, but he was like, "If I had done that, I would have made money. So, why don't I start doing this?" And so, over I guess over time cuz it says there were like over 66 fake token contracts.

So, over time, Jared, I guess >> Cuz the I think it's worth calling out, right? Like, when you're looking at on-chain stuff, you look at things and like a lot of it doesn't make any sense. You have no idea what the like, you know, intent is on the other side of this trade. You're just like, "What are these guys doing?" But like, there's some reason behind it, and you can you can kind of infer it, but sometimes it's hard to figure out what's going on. And so, as a MEV operator, a MEV bot operator, I would imagine you see a lot of weird, inscrutable things that happen on chain, and you're like, "Hmm, like, do I want to get involved in this?" And this person has like slow-played them.

And then like, "Yeah, you do. You really want to get involved. There's money on the table here, bro. Like, let's go." And just like slowly escalated what it was doing. And then eventually he hooked him. >> Yeah, exactly. And so, then I guess And this this makes sense cuz like, the the ultimate way that they got it was via these approvals. So, basically which is a super common pattern in Ethereum. We can have that debate on whether that's a good pattern or not later, but basically you approve router contracts, you approve wrappers, you approve all these different things.

And you let that first interaction contract control your tokens for the moment, so that you can so that it can then go on and interact with like five other things to get you the best best execution or the best whatever. It allows you the thing. Um cuz otherwise, you as the human user would have to like go individually and like initiate all these different transfers to say like move into a position or move out of it. So wrappers routers like these sorts of things are are super common. Giving approval is super common. It seems like he for whatever reason this didn't throw any red flags. So, he was like, "Yeah, yeah, I'll approve it."

And then they basically harvested these approvals over time so that he had these open- ended approvals that weren't like that hadn't been used up. Cuz typically an approval you approve it for you can approve it for like $2 or a million dollars. It gets eaten up, though. But if the trade never settles, it doesn't get eaten up. And so then it's this like an open thing. >> Jeez. Yeah. >> And so that's what the that's what this guy did basically is like he harvested these he collected them over time. And then once it got to a certain size he just took all the money for himself.

Which is wild. >> Which is wild. So, I mean, A it's very impressive um as as many of these hacks are. Uh this is like, you know, you're stealing from the bad guys realistically, right? So, everyone was very happy about it. And like while we shouldn't probably endorse theft, um we definitely can endorse bad things happening to bad people. Um and I think it's fair to say that Jared from Subway is a bad guy. Um and so the funniest part of this to me is that um Jared's operators, if we're you know personifying Jared the boss, Jared's owners or or uh whatever um are like, "We're going to

court." I hope that they they're I hope that their uh legal documents are AI slop. >> I mean >> But but like it seems crazy to me. You're not doxxed. You're running this thing, right? Um hopefully for their sake not in the US, right? Um and now you're going to court you're going to dox yourself. >> [laughter] >> That seems dumb. Like there's no way. You're just not doing that guys. >> I mean there's a few problems with this strategy. It's like they also threatened computer fraud and abuse act which is like I've had this discussion before.

There are a lot of crypto crime things where we call it hacking we call it like an exploit a hack. But by definition it's not like computer fraud and abuse. It's just like and even though we call it a hack it's it's technically by definition it's the furthest thing from that specific crime. Which is why you got a lot more charges like market manipulation or wire fraud or just straight fraud right deception those sorts of things. The fact that he threatened that one specifically I was like that's a novel legal theory that we've never seen done in this sort of case.

The other thing is that we had a case the brothers that I mean we bought brothers who bought that last one where this is like one of one of my favorite stories from last year where the jury cried because it was such a complex case and they didn't want to hear about transaction mempools anymore that they ended up crying. >> [laughter] >> You tortured the poor jury. >> And I mean it just goes to show just how complex these things are but also just how like the courts are just not especially in like a super PVP environment with these

that one was actually a little bit more clear in my opinion because they had they had actually done an exploit of I think like the flashbots they'd found a weakness somewhere in flashbots or whatever and then they use that to steal from the maybe bots. In this case I mean it is I guess >> This is the bot like this is this seems fair game to me. I don't know. >> Because in order for it to be like it feels fraudulent. It feels like it's fraud because this person set out to deceive Jared in order to take their money which is like literally by definition fraud.

But you do actually have to have This is an interesting thing. In order for it to be fraud you do actually have to deceive the person. And so then meaning that like I have to tell you Kane that like I have a billion dollar company and if you give me your money like right? I have to tell you that if you >> he told the bot through breadcrumbs on chain right? Like he didn't send a letter to the bot being like hey bro come into this like crazy honeypot that I built. >> Right and he didn't necessarily It's just like I mean even if we personify all the contracts on chain The the on chain contracts did not necessarily deceive Jared the bot or Jared the human because they they

actually said exactly what they were going to do which is we're going to collect these open approvals and try to execute your trade. It never said that if the trade wasn't executed the approval would be closed. Like that you you know what I'm saying like there's >> Now I think like the the bleeding edge of this though is like okay you know you have approved a thing to do a thing we've accumulated all of those and now we're going to use that approval to do something else that you weren't necessarily expecting right? Like that's where it gets that's where it's probably hard. I'm sure my AI slop cannon lawyer could could probably beat that case fairly well but they're never going to court. They're

never going like if you're if you get on Twitter and all caps type official legal update in all caps, >> Yeah. you're never going to court. I'm sorry. You're just not. >> Yeah, you also offered a 50% bounty coming out the gate. Like >> Yeah. >> [laughter] >> Like you're Yeah, you're >> You're I you're a >> know do you know how much do Do you know how much Jared has made here? >> I >> Like >> I mean, he had whatever 15 million, 7 million to lose. >> in this account. Like it's got to be Like this isn't like, you know, the most poetic thing would be like if this is all of his profits ever.

>> No, no, no, no, no. >> It's not. Like like >> Maybe like 12 million. >> 100 mil of profits, 200 mil of profits, something like that. Um so, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. >> Here we are. So, it's I mean, part of me was just like, is he just trolling? And like cuz it just seems like so He's been doing this PvP [ __ ] for so long. Like he can't be serious. Right? Or is he just Hail Mary? Like it just seems like so. >> You know, >> the most piece of [ __ ] people, the worst people, the worst possible person that you can have on the other side of a like loss-making trade or

exploit or something like that, is an exploiter. >> Yes. >> The level of like audacity and like outrage that you will get from them that something bad happened to them is beyond anything that you can imagine. Like Like if you went in and stole some money from like one of our like Korean friends, right? One of >> Oh, they would be They're all >> They would lose their mind. They'd be so They're This is so unfair. How could this happen to me? How could you do this to me? I thought I trusted you.

Like so, genuinely like >> done They've literally done that when I've been able the rare times that I've been able to help the victim recover the Telegram or the Twitter. >> Yeah. >> Where did he You evil [ __ ] I'm like, you just stole it. >> You just stole it. You just stole it. It's not yours. >> You got your badge out of pure luck. Shut your face. >> I know. But, they can't help themselves. So so like they're You can imagine in the like Jared from Subway office, right? Like, because in order to do this for years and years and years, you have to convince yourself um code is law like nonsense of like it's fine that we're

stealing from people all day long because like the markets are efficient or whatever the hell you've So, you you have created this false justification around your entire operation to allow you to sleep at night to say like this is actually a fine thing for us to be doing. And then something bad happens to you. It challenges all your And everyone's like, "Amazing." >> Yeah. >> And you're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm not a bad guy. What are you talking about? This is unfair. I'm a good guy." >> Yeah. Yeah. And for the record, I actually I do think that what the What are we calling him? An activist? We're not calling him an The attacker okay?

>> The attacker. >> also Let's be clear. I think >> It's the anti-MEV activist. It's the anti-MEV [laughter] activist. That's That's what we're calling them. >> Like, what they did was wrong. Like, whether or not they can be legally held accountable civilly or criminally, totally different question. At the end of the day, what they did was wrong. They went on this huge plan to steal this guy's money for themselves, okay? Like, that's wrong. However, when you're operating in this like the depths of of MEV land, like then just like rapidly rising to the courts. Like you're in the trenches, guys.

You can battle it out in the trenches, but then don't The second that people start then escalating it to the courts like immediately, it's just the most bizarre phenomenon to me. Um you know, if Jared and him want to like go have like get in the ring in Dubai and duke it out. Like I'm >> Dude, like coliseum. Like put them in the coliseum with a sword and like a [ __ ] bow and arrow and let's Let's see what happens. >> Or if they want to have like a moral debate, that's fine. But I just think it's it once you start talking about suing people and like theorizing about the legal crimes and jurisdictions and like then no, no. You guys were in the trenches. You were doing your thing.

One for a long time. Somebody was able to one-up you. Like you can [ __ ] about it, but don't >> [laughter] >> Don't pretend that like you're now going to go to the courts. Like >> Street justice, baby. Like I'm sorry. Like >> [laughter] >> Yeah. Yeah, agreed. Agreed. All right. Our final story, this Polymarket Polymarket thing, I'll call it. And again, I will point out that I'm Polymarket seed investor, so I'm contractually obligated to not believe anything bad about Polymarket that anyone says.

It's actually crazy. So so the story is Wall Street Journal reported alleged whatever. Who knows where they got this information from. I think we all know. That Polymarket paid creators to stage fake bets in promotional videos. Um Again, like >> All right, yeah, that's a headline. So Wall Street Journal Yeah, Wall Street Journal says that Polymarket hired a bunch of content creators, influencers and paid them to make fake videos in which they lied explicitly about how

much they won on Polymarket, and Polymarket did this in order to promote Polymarket. And then there's like a little side story where they paid content creators with a US audience more because they were US audience, even though Polymarket is not allowed to operate in the >> So, look, look, look, look. Like, here's the thing. >> That's Wall Street Journal. >> Yeah. Here's the thing. >> [laughter] >> Here's the thing though, right? Like, um you know, anyone who's running a crypto project, on a daily basis, you get these like outreaches, right? Like, if you saw my mentions and and my Telegram, uh cuz unfortunately I have the app came and a little I bought on Telegram, which was uh somewhat of a mistake. Cuz anyone who

pays like the [ __ ] 10 cents a month or whatever that it costs to have like Telegram Premium gets to send me DMs. Um so, so they uh they will send you messages and they're like, "Hey bro, um you really need to like boost your uh you know, signal in Latvia. I've got a bunch of Latvian influencers that can help you and you know, whatever, right?" And like, these are all somewhere between scams and like they're trying to steal your money and get you on a Zoom call, right? Um and and it's just like constant, right? Um you know, the other one you get is like, "Oh, I've got an OTC buyer or what like it's just like you get these constant DMs, right? Uh so >> way, Cain, I get these and I'm not an

influencer or in the trenches whatsoever, and people will still come in me and they're like, "Yo, we'll get you we'll get you set up on this betting site if you tweet about it, if you tweet about it." >> Yeah. I think you got more influence than you realize, hey. I reckon I reckon if you came out and did some betting site ads, that would that would pop. Uh you should think about it. So, >> [laughter] >> so so so anyway, there there are all these groups like my my and again, I don't know anything about this. I don't know what happened here, but I know the mechanism and I know the market for it, right? And there are these influencer wranglers, right?

And now these days it's like they don't even wrangle influencers, they just make AI slop cannon videos, right? And so these people have like AI uh, and and normal human influencers that they coordinate. They pay them. So, you go to them and you say, "Hey, I want to do a campaign or whatever." They they go to you and say, "Hey, we'll do a campaign. We'll get a bunch of people or whatever." And like you don't have much control over these things, right? Like we tried this once with Infinix and it was like a Clippers thing.

We're like, "Oh, let's see what happens." Like we'll try this like Clippers thing. I had a few people that had said they'd had like good good experience with it. It's [ __ ] terrible. It was so bad. I was like, "No, never again, right?" Not least of which then there's Kaito. So, let's not even talk about that one. But the like you know, my my expectation here is that someone in Polymarket was approached by someone that was like, "Hey, we can get you a bunch of you know, exciting uh, footage of people winning or whatever." And they're like, "Oh, cool. Yeah, like let's get some influencers and and do it." And then the downstream person then created all of this fake content or whatever, you know,

AI or like even to the point of like the the sites being misspelled or whatever. So, to me this just really kind of strikes me as like a you know, influencer campaign gone wrong that someone had with who's maybe a little too credulous has been approached by an influencer marketing thing and uh you know the idea that like >> is all brands today, right? Because you have ad spend, you have marketing spend, you have to put it somewhere.

Where you going to put on [ __ ] Google search results? Like Facebook? Like No, no, no, you do influencers because uh well, mostly because so much of the digital ad spend is just fraud. So, if you're doing like paper click stuff, like you're most of that is like just completely fraudulent at this point. And so it'll look like you're getting clicks, but when you actually look at the conversions and the pays per like click or pays per convert, you're not getting that. And so over the last, gosh, I mean, since I got out of that the show.

So, it's been like a decade. It's It's shifted to this influencer type marketing and then now you have the ad you have these clippers, you have all you have all this, but you're seeing the same evolution happen with that industry as you saw in uh like paper clicks and SEO and that industry before. Like it it was good, you could get value out of it. >> just falls and then people extract, right? Like they >> Because you Yeah, and you have the net the second the networks emerge. So, there was like yeah, there's something called >> The The incentives here are so [ __ ] up. So, like the lesson is like genuinely for anyone who uh is approached by these guys, like do not even and probably there's going to be

some [ __ ] ad campaign on me now in the next week cuz I'm Hopefully none of these influencer wranglers see this uh cuz there'll be a bunch of influencers saying uh crazy [ __ ] about me. Um but like just do not engage with this. It is negative EV, you do not have control over the content, etc. etc. And like the the it's lowest common denominator like like the worst flop content you're going to get. It's They're going to sell you the dream that you're going to get all this amazing user-generated content.

Uh the incentives are all messed up here and you will not get that. It's not worth it. So >> Yeah, exactly. And [clears throat] it's >> You know >> I do I think the most Okay, so the most disappointing thing about the Wall Street Journal article like honestly, if they want to give Polymarket some [ __ ] for their marketing, like it's okay. Like there's probably stuff there. I think the most disappointing thing for me about this investigation is that they were so clearly hell-bent on going after Polymarket when this is actually a really interesting story in a broader context because it's not just like it is literally every brand out there is spending millions of millions, billions probably at this point on these influencer

campaigns. There's a whole like gray black white market for this. And it's not just Polymarket who's uh like Polymarket might be playing with some of the dirtier networks or whatever, but also they might not be. And I think that that there's an interesting story on how what the relationship is and how this actually works. And it applies to literally like yeah, billions of dollars in ads fund. They're just like instead they're like let's just do an easy piece on how shitty Polymarket is. And I think that that's the problem.

>> like why do you have to ask yourself incentives, right? Like where did that come from? Like what a weird crazy coincidence that you know, one of Polymarket's competitors like is just [ __ ] it's it's endless, right? The The funniest part was though that um So so I've had I think like three or four different journalists reach out to me about Polymarket related things. Like I can always tell that there's like a flood campaign on on you know in the works right?

And sometimes I'm like tempted to be like let me see if I can you know try and but like you're you're being quoted as an investor. No one's ever going to take you seriously or believe you. Like it's just negative EV um >> Yeah. >> and and so I usually just say like look no comment, right? Like I you know I'm an investor I'm not going to not going to talk about it. You know there's there's really interesting like market structural things that you could you could talk about and and you know I think that that's an interesting story about like prediction markets generally and how they work and like whatever but it's just like negative EV to like you know >> Yeah.

>> the record or whatever. Anyway, so then the other day I got I got DM'd um and and it's like a journalist that I've spoken to like quite a few times, right? And and he was like hey I've got this thing that I'm working on and I just responded to the post with the like Wojak like face like the the like nice face and then lifting off with like the blood tears, right? And I was like and I was like well then I like cuz I it's Telegram, right? Like you just do stuff. I wasn't even thinking about like who the counterpart to this like response was, right? So I responded with a Wojak meme and then I was like hey

just clarifying that Wojak meme is off the record. >> Off the record. >> Cuz I was like I do not want to get quoted in some news article as like you know Polymarket investor [laughter] responds with like Wojak face meme and it's like the the little like Wojak emoji. I was like I don't want any part so I was like that that meme reaction is off the rack. Um All right. >> [laughter] >> I can imagine it though, dude. No, that's [clears throat] my favorite my favorite thing. I've been doing this for years, yeah. I like insta respond to the journos in my DMs and then immediately I'm like

>> Oh, yeah, [ __ ] >> And I'm like, that was I'm like, that's off the rack or like, that's background. Every once in a while they >> Imagine they Imagine they're like the back We have an attributed expert respond with [laughter] a poop emoji. Like, okay. All right. Um also All right, that's it. Thank you for joining us for this episode of Uneasy Money. Remember what happens on chain never stays on chain. We'll be back next week. Until then, do your own research before aping in.

See you guys. >> Bye. >> Nothing you hear on Uneasy Money is financial advice. We're just three builders talking about what's happening on chain and we want you to always do your own research before aping in. You can find all our disclosures at unchainedcrypto.com/uneasymoney.