The Growing Partisan Divide in Crypto | Roundup

Transcript

it's just the other context with Roman is like he wrote this code when there was like $10 million in tvl on eth like no one could understand that you know a there was going to be all this growth B would be used for elicit purposes C you know you'd have like this reinterpretation of what you know free speech and code is so I just feel terrible for him and uh yeah I mean the hope is that we can either get these guys off or we can get them pardoned hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to the Wormhole Foundation if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring across chains can be a massive pain I certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that's why we are super pumped to have

partnered with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol the Wormhole protocol connects over 30 blockchains and six different run times including salana SOI ethereum layer 2os and more and the coolest part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free you can claim that by just going down into the show notes and clicking on the link all right guys on with the show hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to this episode sponsor flood protocol the optimal deck aggregator now if you are a listener of bell curve you know that me is a massive problem which is why we are so pumped to partner up with flood on this season flood is the only gasless and meev free aggregator that not only gets you the best execution but also

gives you back all the extra Surplus that you create every single time you swap now this is relevant for both swappers and developers but you're going to be hearing all about them later in the program so for now thank you flood and back to the show hey everyone this episode is brought to you by Unis swap delivering the best onchain trading experience in crypto period Bar None one thing I want to call out is the Unis swap extension so say goodbye these days of these annoying as our popup wallet extensions you lose your place trading you have to open it back up Unis swop now has a nice Sleek sidebar that persists no matter where you are in the web it's much easier to use if you click the link at the bottom this episode you can join the waiting list and I'll see what I can do to get you moved up that

waiting list but definitely go click the link check it out all right everyone welcome back to another episode of bell curve before we jump in quick disclaimer the views expressed by my co-host today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated with uh nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode all right everyone welcome back to another bell curve Roundup you got Michaels one to Vance fellas how we doing this week you know we're ripping it we're doing good feel good in just like Roar Kitty locked in B in the

seat I'm just in the arena some will work some won't there been some problems in the arena this week from what I hear yeah let's actually start with the chth stuff I so like Vance and I found this I don't think many people know about this article yeah so I mean there's obviously the zerox balloon lover and the enshrining plebs uh you know and they're like you know basically terrorists for the crypto VC set I think a lot of crypto VC's just like hear hear footsteps see ghosts when they kind of see those accounts but um I was like thinking of is there a is there a comp for this in uh Trad Trad BC there actually is it's this guy named

Eric newcomer who runs this newsletter called new newcomer it's aonly named but um he basically goes deep on Silicon Valley venture firms and you know the data around Silicon Valley venture firms is hard to come by but this guy has receipts he's got basically the entire history of chim's firm all the returns all the dirt on the internal kind of inter scene Warfare um and he basically has had a beef with chamath for a few years over his spaxs uh you know the first article he published about chth was the scam in the arena um obviously a play on the man in the arena and uh you know he took him to task for that and then this recent article he released this week has all of chim's returns um all of the intering beef and he

basically says that chth can't raise any money um everyone is left he has no investing Talent his CFO is resigned his GC is resigned and then at the end of the article he reveals that jamath sold his PJ and then he calls him you know no longer a billionaire it's basically just like slams him into the mat it's not even calls him no longer a billionaire fors does not count him as billionaire anymore and that that is the the pretense for for the lack of the three commas um but I I I do think um I was gonna say this reminds me of like Russ Haman this so good so good uh I mean there there's also little other nuggets in there it's just like uh I mean keep in

mind he has been on the Allin pod for the last couple of years um and has been uh um positioning himself as you know taking taking licks but still surviving he's you know in the trenches taking shells like now now we know what some of these shells are first off uh well he he rightly calls out that he made $750 million off of the spa IC IPO craze P's a through z uh which he never got past I think f um and then he also calls out uh how well one thing that wasn't noted is he also sold his 10% state in the Warriors for $280 million um and so

there there was a lot of liquidity that was gained or obtained over the course of the last couple of years but it seems like that has not really done anything to help what may be an ilid illiquidity crisis here at Social Capital um so much so that he apparently and Eric newcomer talked to a few LPS Who corroborated the story chth asked and and Chamas hasn't been raising money well he hasn't raising money he hasn't been managing new funds with outside Capital that that have a management fee uh for for almost I think five or six years at this point but last fall chamoth went to his LPS to ask whether or not he could increase the management fee on the funds that he was still managing to which the lp said no

[ __ ] way and so there's just like a lot of smoke here and I think a lot of the data is correct I mean the the main two call outs are um he calls it the two falling outs um or or the the two breakups um the first one is the two main lieutenants at Social Capital uh Mamon Hamid and and uh Ted maidenberg um were were kind of the uh Allstars that made Social Capital Social Capital um both with slack and intercom as the two main Investments and you know slack went public it and was ultimately bought for about 2425 billion I think that is the bulk of the returns that exist in the social capital

funds um there was a falling out with mimon and jamath and mmon actually went to go work and run Kleiner Perkins after this and then Ted left at the same time and now runs tribe Capital so for the last six or seven years the the all stars on the chamach team have left and have been investing elsewhere and I think this is important to note because Venture is lagged at a minimum 5 years but on average probably seven to 10 years and so you're starting to see the Ripple effects of the lack of that Talent being within the social capital for walls uh and investing elsewhere um and you know the likes of mammood uh did figb um and I think tribe Capital has you know had a number of successes as

well so it it is you know kind of an issue when when your best players uh go play for the other team um but I think that's you know just kind of the surface level here there's a lot that's that's going on that's deeper yeah I mean this is obviously a non- crypto story but it's it's uh it's interesting in the sense that like obviously newcomer and chamath you know got a whiff of each other at some point and didn't didn't like what they what they mutually smelled so there's some sort of beef here but I think this is symptomatic of a larger Silicon Valley uh venture um perspective where it's like are there holes in these funds how big are they what are what are the best

investments they've done when who made them where did they go um and what's the future because like you know these returns are retroactive and they're not that great from these funds but then you look at the future returns or you you assume what they could be or might be I think those are probably even worse in some ways so I think silicon Valley is having this like slow motion car crash where it's like this delicate dance between like the investors in the funds and the GPS of the funds and you know there's incentives to keep the marks up and there's incentives to keep the whole thing going because venture has been an amazing contributor to returns I mean some funds at least over the past you know 15 years there's

big question mark in terms of what it becomes and so like the mini identity crisis that maybe the uh the balloonist man of the world is is is is you know projecting on some of the venture capitalist and crypto I think that's like pretty vanilla compared to what what the large like some of these firms have raised five six seven billion dollar funds and you know what is the what is the fund worth maybe a lot maybe nothing when I think two the two binary outcomes for these funds it's not like a hedge fund where your risk of getting zeroed is the market crashes and literally goes to zero it's like if you don't get liquid on these companies they are

zero the way I think about it is it's it's like this game of schrodingers partner partnership where if you look inside what's in the the lp it may be alive it may be dead but you don't know because it's just like as long as you don't last and nobody tells you it's like goes on forever uh but but that's that's kind of how a lot of these firms are being run right now it's like well I don't know we we'll see um uh when all this comes home the roost but I mean that's that's also and to tie it back to our main subjects here I mean that's one of the benefits of these crypto funds is you just have a somewhere in between hedge fund and Venture fund type valuation and Mark capabilities where

it's going to whipsaw quarter to quarter you know you may be up 2X and then down 50% but that's also a good thing because you actually realize and can understand more about how much these are worth and over the course of the last couple of years um funds and therefore Auditors and and accounting firms have gotten a lot smarter about this so there are like methodologies for how you discount based on ill liquidity and you get to reasonable valuations that are blessed by like big four Auditors essentially but it is it is pretty interesting you know that that hasn't happened I mean it can't happen because there isn't an open market for these assets but if you got figma that's potentially going to get bought for $20 billion uh I I just saw recently um also plaid I think is doing

uh something like $171 million of Revenue $70 million of profit uh but their last round was at $15 billion you know how long are you going to have to wait for that valuation to catch up um so there there's either going to be a time duration issue or some of these things are going to have to get you know liquid at at much lower values than they previously were what's what's plaid worth with those metrics you think 170 of Revenue and 71 milon of profit I I may butcher this but I think in 2021 they were doing $221 million of Revenue and I think they went down to like a 100 and then in 2023 they're back up to 170 with 70 of that being profit uh or or I

I think you know EV whatever um but the the question is what is the longterm potential of plat what is the long-term potential of that Revenue growth uh where does it go where does it tap out you get to a billion dollars of Revenue I mean if you look at publicly traded SAS multiples right now it's like still higher than it was over the last couple years but we're talking like seven 7 and a half X Revenue uh with 15% free cash flow and and 25% plus growth year of year so can you hit those marks and if you do and you're doing that off of a billion which is you know 6X from 171 so you got to go 6X that gets you a 7 billion valuation which is you know half of what your last private round was

so you got a 6X to get to half I mean it just there's a podcast with Zahir from split capital I don't know if you listen to this EO but uh it was on I like Zahir though he's been on the show before it's great I mean it was uh it was on Frank chaparro's podcast and his whole thing is like you know the liquid managers are going to do well you know because they have these uh they're able to buy companies or protocols on the cheap if you can valuate them correctly they have liquidity you know there's no risk of it going to zero I just think there's going to be in the fullness of time maybe a couple year time period there's going to be this rebalancing to crypto fund managers I I think the consensus right now is

everyone's very bearish on crypto fund managers within crypto but I think the lp consensus is Like These funds are comping extremely favorably to their Trad VC you know um counterparts and I think that's really really good for crypto especially if you get a better mixture of liquid and and Venture funds it's just going to mean that these assets get valued on more of a fundamental basis which you know is good and bad but good for the industry overall what one kind of caveat I would add to that though is I think there's a difference between having liquid assets versus having a liquid fund and what I mean by that is a liquid fund you know typical structure is can be like a two or threee lockup and then quarterly

Redemption rights and those liquid funds are you know itively uh able to sell those assets as soon as they get a Redemption they have to be able to sell those assets generally as soon as they get a Redemption request from an LP so long as they're not side pocketed and you know this gets into you know fund accounting but it's it's extremely difficult and so I I would only say that there is an advantage I think in having a a a closed ended fund structure that is able to buy liquid and and this is kind of what we hear as well from LPS uh because his historically people who are not following this industry 24/7 are inherently terrible at being able to time the market and so the times when

they are putting money in are at Market highs which means those liquid funds need to take that cash and go buy assets and the times when they are inherently wanted to sell or redeem and get the value back is at Market lows and so those funds are having to take those assets and sell those assets at the market lows and it's just like counter C control to what you would expect like ideal industrial psychology would be but that's just how people are inherently and so the liquid fund structure I think is brutal in that respect uh because you're you're at the becking call of these LPS who have Redemption rights and frankly are tracking this stuff it's like uh you know you're you're messing around with uh with Russian

Roulette yeah I've got a uh obviously don't have LP experience here but I've got a my old boss uh my last company before blocks and I are good friends and and I got him to buy some crypto over the years and every time it dips like 10% he's like he just texts me like diamond hands and I just send him that Meme of Arthur with his Diamond hands like don't freaking sell anything man like just just don't I've told all my friends I will not respond to you anymore if you send me that text I like for the last few years it's just like nope yeah don't do it um so I I actually I have a question for you guys that that's a really good Nuance by the way

about just the most people don't know how funds are structured but almost like protecting LPS from some of their worst instincts with the a lot of alpha in the way you structure a fund from what I'm picking up I I saw that um maybe this was related to the Zahir podcast from split but I saw CMS did a pretty long threat about this the other day as well which is just a relative mix of you know traditional private Equity versus liquid and how liquid is it's a big opportunity there's not as much capital in it Etc and basically one of the big challenges of that is that eventually you have to send that 50% down month over Monon letter to your LPS which just really sucks but what do you guys what do you guys think about his some of the points that he made about

thread um they're good points I mean it kind of uh dovetails with what Zahir said where it's like yes liquid is uh a good investment strategy but if your LPS are going to redeem you at the lows you know you don't have time for things to play out if you have a quarterly gate that that sucks and and most hedge funds in crypto have a three-year lock most of the well-known ones that people know of have that that type of Lock and then you have like a 25% gate on the liquidity per quarter so it's not like you can pull everything at once but I don't know the best investment strategy in crypto has literally been going into a coma so like it's kind of incompatible with this liquid uh manager thesis but at the same

time um you know that is the assets that you're marketing to LPS that you're going to buy and I and I think it's about building trust with the LPS and saying like listen um we're going to put liquid assets in a venture fund context and the IL liquidity is a feature not a bug um and you know you you sometimes get the questions of like you know why don't why would we pay you know you to hold you know X Y or Z asset and it's like a because you know are you willing to risk your career to buy crypto after the FTX collapse um and and and B you know are you willing to hold it through these it's like you know retail and some of these LPS are pretty similar in that context like they get uh rewarded marginally for making money but they get

punished severely for losing even a little bit and that's like not a incentive compatible structure for for managing a crypto you I mean I mean the the other thing too that I'll add is like if this is not your 24/7 Focus then how are you expected to be able keep up with the industry all the nuances all the things that are going on and and like understand the memes understand the culture but also be able to get deals and and kind of like understand where things are going and so this is not your your primary focus uh every day that you so in Venture a traditional Venture the hardest decisions you have to make are what do you buy but the outcomes are basically decided for you did the

company sell or did the company go public but when it comes to crypto Venture there's this whole other other side and probably way higher you know harder side which is every day that you're holding are you are you selling or are you not selling and at least for from our perspective like we are we are long-term holders which means that we've seen you know 100,000% ups and then 99% downs and but but like haven't changed anything about the strategy we're holding the stuff for five years plus like that is a really really hard thing to do if you are managing the assets yourselves and they're liquid and you don't really understand this industry

you don't really understand what's going on with that particular protocol team fing team whatever and you don't understand where we are in the market cycles and you watch it go up and you sell it when it goes up 20% but then there's another 25,000 per that it goes up afterwards like you you miss the ups and then you know when it goes down 99% you're like ah it's dead why don't I just recruit 10% of my value back originally and like then then you miss the comeback and it's it's it just like it's so funny to think you know that there's any other way to invest in this industry if you're not 247 and you don't have like a five to 10 year time Horizon completely age completely um talk about roaring kitty yeah yes deep

[ __ ] value baby we are back uh all right so do we just to give like a little bit of a history on if you haven't heard of ring Kitty but ruring kitty aka uh Keith Gil was this um you know he had this profile on Reddit where he was a GameStop guy for a long time and I what people people now associate with him as uh engineering this short squeeze on GameStop that famously blew up Gabe plotkin's fund but even before that I mean he had like months and years of posts uh he he was kind of like a like the you know dfv titles kind of funny but he actually did buy it originally because the the stock was trading below Book value and had a fundamental thesis on it and but anyway

he kind of mobilized this Army of redditors to squeeze the shorts do you think he mobilized it and intended to do this or he just kind of like happened to be there as this was happening yeah he did he I mean I mean if you watched the original video he's like look there's 100% 105% short interest yeah maybe didn't cause it but it was part of the thesis yeah and maybe it's kind of one of those things where he thought something might happen or he was just geared up and was like you know FD shorts that kind of thing but whatever that's what did end up happening I can't what was the name of his fund again that ended up getting blown up uh Melvin Melvin Melvin uh a movie got made out of this which was

actually worth a watch it is interesting to note the take on the movie which at the time like Liz Warren who's really on a real winning streak recently came out and said this is Market manipulation and blah blah blah that was not the side that the movie took at all um and anyway he uh but you know it's been gone gme has been in a GameStop at AMC have been in this slow bleed for like three years and he just tweeted I'll actually grab the tweet from him but he just tweeted like the lockin meme and immediately GameStop pumped like 150% over the course of 36 hours uh and he's been tweeting non-stop um memes and stuff ever since and actually there's some speculation that he sold his account but yeah what do we what do we think about

this um get to see a proof of life yeah I don't think he sold his account I mean I think I mean I don't know why he's I've heard he still has like 20 million bucks I guess more than that now of these shares and we'll see if he bought or sold but back in the day his whole thing was he would post his position size every day you know and people would like anchor on that and uh it was kind of this like [ __ ] you movement to all these hedge funds because they were super short um and now it's kind of qu I don't know what the what it's about like it's kind of like this sequel which is not quite as good as the movie um in or the first you

know installment in many ways and he just keeps posting these videos so I'm not sure what the endgame is here like Ryan Ryan con is also now the CEO and he owns 12% of the outstanding shares so this could get pretty squirly if uh if Ryan Cohen and you know Co start start selling the candle doesn't look great it's down 25% today no it's not great also maybe an unpopular opinion but some of those memes that he's releasing are kind of mid I'm Not Gon to lie really yeah I think some of them are funny the original the first couple I watched but I watched like 15 of them last night and I was it's okay I I would say this is a pulse check on animal

spirits and I think they're kind of slowly reactivating like if you look at the GameStop chart it is pretty cooked like it's been in a three-year downtrend but people are willing to engage with this stuff I think is the clear message here um there's a I think that's what people are specul I was talking to Yano uh yesterday and he mentioned you know he's got this group chat with his home friends who work like SAS jobs you know in the in back out of in California uh like work at grocery stores whatever it is like they didn't talk at all about crypto when crypto when Bitcoin broke

through its all-time high but they've been talking about it this week post GameStop and kind of reminds everyone that crypto exists you know um there's also a GameStop that you can buy on a GameStop token that you can buy on both salana and eth I saw that was pumping pretty hard um so there are ways you can do this stuff I guess but yeah maybe there's a pulse check on maybe that's the best way to freeze it um let's see how the the GameStop meme token is doing not well yeah not well did you guys see that uh AMC is issuing they're issuing like uh $163 Million worth of uh there's mixed debt and Equity um but they're

raising like 170 million and initially the market like the stock price pumped uh on that but that is some pretty fast issuance uh that's a very quick decision to issue those shares and I don't know I mean it's just like the second time it happens there's no like what do we do this is so weird I can't believe this is happening people are like we're going to issue stock yeah like sequel Never As Good As the original yeah it feels pretty nakedly like I don't know who's buying that like it's already especially if it's already down 20 30% maybe it's a little bit of a non story but it's just kind of like a flashback from a couple years ago when all this was going on

yeah I I think you're going to see basically the animal spirits continue to improve the longer that the S&P is at Fresh alltime highs which is pretty nuts in and of itself um and these things follow like pretty predictable patterns like 2020 stocks hit all-time highs after the covid crash then crypto rallied with GameStop and all that other stuff in the background as well I think it's a positive longer term sign but I I wouldn't be you know buying uh the mean stock nor nor the actual stock the other variable that I think plays into this is the second that we get some Sid in all of a rate cut it becomes gameon

yeah um I don't know I mean I think there there was a little bit there was a a moment there where people were worried about risk inflation coming back um the the what the market was pricing in in terms of race rate Cuts has swung so much um from the beginning of the year till now we were I think the market was being way to Liberal they were pricing in six or seven Cuts now they're they're pricing in even fewer Cuts than the FED has said that they're going to do with their Dot Plot and so maybe this is people just they kind of got the all clear from the S&P inflation's not as bad as everyone thought and you know it's kind of an all clear to move a little bit higher so I mean basically everything including Bitcoin and eath kind of ripped

yesterday as soon as we saw you the inflation print come down slightly lower than expected but I think the scunt butt on the expectation was that it it was get potentially higher and people were waiting for that and the fact that it came in below expectations if not basically in line was really really positive I'm I'm pretty uh positive on CPI generally like reading the various research letters that people put out it feels like now the narrative is Shifting to the hot prints in q1 were an aberration and like you're not going to see 2% CPI this year but you're going to see this thing falling pretty quickly to a rate that might be somewhat alarming like the May Cleveland inflation print was

negative for for a long time now it's like slightly positive but you know if you annualize what the Cleveland uh and maybe we can put this up yeah if you send it to me if you annualize the the May print here and you know you should never this annualizing a single month of cpis like say not to do this with tokens no I mean look like this is I think this is a little bit more forecastable than the revenue tokens and I think it's just going to continue dropping like what you can do and pce are already in the two to three% range CPI is kind of getting there so Mike scroll down a little bit Yeah so there's the May month over month but then the yeah exactly so if 0.11

which is top left of that month over month was annualized from May so sorry not annualized but if it's the if it's the 12 month load back from last May it would be 3.39 as the headline number so you know I I agree that it's heading probably in the in a positive direction as in lower uh but what will get reported next month I guess you know a month from now is at these rates would be 3.39 this plus a little bit of jobs weakness I still think there's a few Cuts coming this year um I just don't I just don't think the FED can tell people to pound sand if

unemployment's you know above four and CPI is dropping Like a Rock if if unemployment goes above four all bets are off but I think if unemployment stays below four I think there's no Cuts this year keep in mind it's 3.9% right now so we're we're we're pretty close I would say on top of even rates like we're still spending you know there still we're still running2 trillion deficits like that is stimulus um so yeah I mean we look look at how much we've done in terms of crypto price appreciation at 5% interest rates which everyone said was impossible so crazy and somehow the sentiment at you know 3K eth and 65k BTC is worse than it was at 1K eth and 17K BTC yeah

it's uh maybe time to look in the mirror you know what do you make of this because I I can't I mean I I listened to Santiago did a good um on his Roundup with Jason last week but you mentioning like maybe you're memory p uh plays tricks on you a little bit from last cycle and I do just remember you know I remember this sort of fever pitch you know crazy bull market but it couldn't have been like that for two years I'm sure there were months where people were questioning is it all over or whatever but I don't know what do you guys think I mean we we used to we used to like even further back than the bare Market we used to celebrate and go nuts over the fact that like Toyota joined the Enterprise ethereum I know you know it

would be and Science Guy was posting on Reddit some like triangle charts of eth going up um that's way back when no I mean that is then but like like 2017 and then and then we're getting news that like Millennium bought two billion of BTC and you know was the the state pension Board of Wisconsin about 100 like these were things that we literally used to just like like think like you know like maybe in 50 years this would happen and it's happening now and I think it's a mixture the sentiment is a mixture of people being short the majors um and you know that's Bitcoin that's eth I would say that's probably Soul as well at this point but you know

other than this soul I think the other part of it is other than the soul ecosystem tokens some Venture tokens that have launched and done well like not a lot of stuff has moved outside of the majors I think that'll probably change in the in the near future but you know with the with the soul um rally kind of like stalling out a little bit I think that's kind of where the the sentiment is now where it's like [ __ ] like what's going to go up other than Bitcoin and the crypto Market kind of moves in a way that everyone stops paying attention to asset X Y or Z until they realize that they need to own it and I think that's kind of what's playing out right now and it'll be pretty standard you know

Bitcoin will go up that will provide fuel for eth and the next asset to get the ETF which is eth uh and then that'll kind of trickle down um but it probably won't trickle down in the same sense as previous Cycles like there's going to be a lot of dispersion of returns uh going forward yeah I agree with that and it might be worth talking about that disclosure from Millennium and for those of you for folks on the uh who are listening you might not know Millennium is a a super well-known hedge fund and I think first of all obviously it's just positive that um the millenniums of the world own some Bitcoin in in any way shape or form and you know to your point Vance yeah I also remember when there was like the blockchain and

Transportation Alliance was like yes marisk is doing something on the blockchain right like we've come an enormously long way from there but I I did see Chia from uh from um Alliance Stout made this pretty good point that look those guys are first of all they're they're not like the long-term structural buyers that we all want for these ETFs right they're usually they've got some sort of delta neutral trade which means there we might just be looking at the long uh leg of of the trade which there definitely could be an accompanying short something like that so and this was the whole Jim biano argument around is it the long-term buyers or the short-term buyers and it's cool to see their name but this probably falls in the short-term Trader bucket I mean just to to add on to that um I

think ch's point which was um really good is that Millennium is known for a lot of Trades that are long short and so you know the the like spread is what they go for and there was this really popular trade of like micro strategy uh long Bitcoin short micro strategy long Bitcoin was that them who knows um it but it it these 13 FS that get filed are really just snapshots of moments in time and so you can't tell what is actually going to be held or or to your point Mike like what is their strategy what we will know is that over the next couple of quarters as more of these filings are done where their position sizing is trending because that that will tell us more of the trajectory less the snapshot um but I I can't remember who who mentioned

this but it is a good framing um of kind of everything that we were just saying which is like we had heard anecdotally that 95% of the buying from January and through April was retail buyers so people in their Charles Schwab account you know in in their burage account buying ibit buying um the Fidelity Bitcoin trust um ETF um now I think it's pretty clear that we start to see some of the hedge funds getting into the game and the way that a lot of these asset classes emerge is it's retail uh retail buyers of brokerage accounts who for whatever reason haven't been able to buy you know Co coinbase based uh Bitcoin uh didn't have a coinbase account they just

said okay well now I'll buy them because got laun then it's Hench funds who are maybe momentum or long short or you know have some some position that they want to want to take who knows how long then it goes to mutual funds and where they start allocating a certain percentage of the asset nav to mutual funds then it goes to raia platforms and really kind of the Lawn Lawn PLL in the tent here is whether or not these wirehouses and brokerages will actually start to allow the ability to buy these assets I have a I have a friend who's a Trader at uh Bank of America he was telling me so Bank of America Merl Lynch is sort of like your designated Asset Management 401K partner when you're a Trader at Bank of America because they're the same

company but Merl Lynch doesn't support the ability to buy uh Bitcoin or any of the ibid or or Fidelity and so they literally have to transfer their 40 if they want to buy Bitcoin they have to transfer their 401k to another brokerage which is like why are you leaving Bank of America like why are why are you transferring your assets and it's like oh because I want to buy like 5% of you know Bitcoin my 401k please it's like nerdo you can't do that it's too risky so like meanwhile he's trading credit derivatives but the the the and and so next it's like raia platforms who have access to buy it for on behalf of their clients this is 30 trillion dollars of assets that are managed by

intermediaries who are 401K Ira even like pension managers a small pension small Company pension managers who are managing assets on behalf of them and then the final step is you know solving wealth funds and and massive you know pools of capital that are going to be like permanent hold and so like each step of the process it gets longer and longer duration as to what your investment strategy is and we're at like step two right now and eventually we'll start to get and and the other one that I think we kind of touched over or or glossed over was the Wisconsin pension fund I think bought a hundred million uh1 million dollar of um of ibit and and so like at the end of the process at the end of the food chain

that I just described so we're starting to see like people moving down the food chain a bit um but I I think that that's kind of how people should think of this in terms of the mental model where we are uh it like hasn't even started to touch a lot of the permanent Capital base that everybody you know said was going to be the advantage of having these ecfs live I've got a question for you guys on the totally agree by the way that I think that's the much bigger the Wisconsin uh pension is the much bigger story here but I can see some of the more Trad five fund managers getting blown out on some of these spread trades that they love to put on because because you're dealing with a market that is somewhat irrational and I think there is a rational argument you

could have said that micro strategy shouldn't do well that premium that they originally were clipping like that gets sucked out of the market when you have the ETFs but like what did the market do just pumped micro strategy which is hilarious trade recommended on Bloomberg it was like micr strategies premium cannot persist a lot of people were Shing this and then I I would I I mean I think it's possible that Millennium had the long Bitcoin short micro strategy trade on and they were the the kind of bozos that got blown up no I mean what what's the what's the uh the Wall Street bets phrase to bring it all together we can stay [ __ ] harder than you could stay solvid

dude yeah yeah oh my God we'll see but it seems like Trad is uh engaging which is good hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to the title sponsor of this season of bellur The Wormhole Foundation now if you are an onchain user which I bet you are if you're listening to bellur you know that the cross chain experience in crypto still sucks let's just call spade a spade we talk about it in this program all the time interop is still a big problem which is why we specifically wanted to team up with the Wormhole Foundation they are a decentralized interop platform that powers multi-chain applications and bridges so that could be anything from defi to nfts governance oracles and more so if you are a developer and you're building uh

cross-chain assets apps or data or anything like that I highly recommend that you click the link at the bottom of this episode and go check out to see what you can build on Wormhole and Wormhole first of all this is a fun team they did something really cool with us you can actually go and click the link at the bottom of the screen which is going to send you to a landing page where you can claim your own unique Wormhole nft so we're doing this with me and we're doing this with Jason my co-founder so help a brother out it's a super cool nft I promise go click the link at the bottom of this episode and fill out your PO app get your free nft and if you're a Dev head over to Wormhole and check out to see what cool cross chain stuff you can build hey

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floods flexible hooks allowing you to make swapping first class primitive by adding custom order types like t- wops or if you're a wallet Builder or something like that you can actually build your own orderflow auction in and start recapturing a bunch of that me if you want to reach out to them go to devs flood. bid or just jump right in the Discord all right guys thanks very much appreciate you flood hey everyone this episode is brought to you by Unis swop delivering the best onchain trading experience period Bar None in all of crypto here's how I would divide the protocol today there's a web part A mobile part and an extension part you can see say goodbye to the popup wallet extension was just not great from a ux perspective now what they've delivered is this nice clean sidebar where you can just very easily track swaps sign

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week uh so low carb Crusader not sure if that name Rings any bells but low carb Crusader was he was the guy that engineered this pretty I guess ingenious uh depending on how you want to frame it exploit me exploit about a year ago um so so this was the so the the headline of the story is that the doj just uh uh they figured out who low carb Crusader was there was a pair of brothers I guess I just saw that one of them used to work being an intern at polychain and like had a citadel background so really bright guys they engineered this this um you you got a highly profitable trading strategy basically but what it was a mix of it was it was a very clever sandwich bait mixed with a relay exploit so I'm

sort of going off memory here but I think what they did was they essentially baited these extremely profitable sandwiching opportunities um in these very liquid trading Pairs and someone eventually like some Searcher bought or Searchers saw this they had to put up a good amount of money to actually capture these very juicy sandwiches then when that made it into to a block there was some malfunction that happened at the relay level the way that it works is like the blocks end up getting built it P like the relay um constructs that it passes it to the proposer that actually has to sign off on the Block and then the relay is supposed to propagate it something happened where like this

person actually set up a proposer so yeah they had to set up a proposer ahead of time they had to bait these uh sandwich Bots into taking advantage of this opportunity it created this massive you know multi million exploit um but the way that the way that he these brothers set it up was that um he was able to uh actually take the the block that this that these people had built for themselves and just abcon with the eth um and so this happened about a year ago it made waves in like all the Meb communities and the doj just went after these guys um and is inditing them and as it turns out their perspective is that they did some illegal stuff and I remember a while ago there was this

tweet I I searched for it if this was your Tweet I'm sorry I can't credit you uh but it was like the solution to meev is just jail and uh it you know straight to jail straight jail yeah me away yeah and I don't know it turns out uh turns out if you find new and creative ways of stealing money it's still stealing money right I think also the consensus was like this is so complicated that the government could never figure it out yeah I don't know seems like they got Prett educated I mean there there are some like bad facts in this fat pattern at least from what I've read it's like

looking up uh statute of limitations for wire fraud and like what are what are the jail uh penalties for wire fraud like it it it was not um it was not uh it was not around them quite what they were doing I think um but they did uh have some pressence to understand that what they were doing was not something that was okay but yeah you know it it is tough I think because um you know if you if you uh are the enemy of my enemy maybe you're kind of my friend but and and these men Bots uh you know are not necessarily the best um you mechanisms in the Eos system so if you're attacking

them and you find an exploit it's like maybe that's like not as bad and that was maybe the justification um so the intention I think may be good but like if you find $25 million uh you should probably return it yeah I think there there's an interesting the philosophical schools of thought that are bumping up against each other are like if I had to sum up the two perspectives here is that one first of all is this really a this might be a little bit of a victimless crime because yes even though some people were exploited these were also exploiters themselves right no one has an enormous amount of pity for sandwich Bots and if you view me as a doggy dog dark force kind of game then this person was just uh playing this game better um and you

know All is fair in in lemon evv type type deal the the other perspective is that first of all sandwich Traders even though no one really likes them they're doing something they're just exploiting publicly available information to front run we don't think this is a good activity but in a sense it is kind of fair and the other thing that these brothers did was they actually exploited a bug in the system and so that is activating this the strain of thought which is code law just because you know there was a system it was built with this intention we have laws to make sure that people follow the intention uh are if you violate that intention is it okay because the code is law or is law law law is not law I mean like we've

seen out for ABY from mango he lost these guys probably gonna lose whatever argument they put forward and they're being charged with some extremely serious crimes up what was it 15 or 25 years dude that's so long yeah it's like I mean I I just don't think you can reasonably expect to a do this or B front run R people's trades and expect that that's kosher like the doj doesn't really distinguish between what they did and more vanilla front running but I would assume that if you've been doing

Mev you are potentially a Target and I think it generally needs to switch from Mev to orderflow auctions that are fair and transparent because it's great to make all this money but if you go to jail and then are forced to pay it all back like what what's the point I would guess that there are a couple firms out there today that did not love seeing this like there are definitely a couple big firms in me land which are probably watching this prosecution with uh quite a bit of Interest so I don't know um I don't really have much of an opinion on it it just we should all remember that the government I thought I can't remember which of you said this point Sorry but

uh yeah the government are actually not morons and they move slowly but they are there are some really really smart people are work in the government and they are capable of understanding the same Meb gigabrain stuff that you understand so yeah yeah we'll see you know we'll see don't break yeah so also on the CODIS front uh stuff there was something that I am much more against that I thought was pretty um pretty nod great this week that happened over in the Netherlands so I don't know how many folks have been following The Saga of uh tornado cache but tornado cache um is a privacy like a mixing sort of service which allows

people who you know submit their crypto to that to remain anonymous and a tornado cach developer Alexi perv uh has been found guilty and sentenced to 64 months in prison um so he's actually been in jail I think since August of 2022 so he's already been there for a number of years I'm not sure if he's going to get credit for time served or whatever but you know the what he was actually accused of and I guess indicted for is uh moneya laundering and you know I mean there's a there's a lot of nuance to this as well um this is a I mean this is a software it's a protocol that that anyone can use um but there's just not

that much political will to defend privacy at the current moment in time which I think sucks I I think this is shitty and pretty sad to be honest but it it is it is incredibly difficult to see this happen um and you know there's another couple of uh cases that are still being uh adjudicated Roman storm is one of them um one of the other uh and that's I think in the US um so there there'll be a lot of information that comes about out about that I'm not sure what actually is the the status of the other founder the other he on the he's on the lamb I think I thought I thought that was the case um yeah I mean look this is brutal uh

because you have on one side uh free speech and open source uh arguments that are that are pretty strong and robust and on the other side you have National Security and and uh the Patriot Act and and actually you know the B secrecy act as well you know which are being thrown at these these individuals uh obviously not the Netherland situation but the equivalent types of laws um where Financial privacy is something that frankly just like doesn't exist um and whenever um whenever there's sort of a fight for financial privacy it get shot down um because of you know those those stipulations and this is why uh you know if um if you're pulling out more than

$10,000 uh from or du a a $10,000 transaction or more within the US Financial system it actually goes directly to the FBI through a suspicious activity report and then is flagged and then is kept and filed uh and monitored um and so you know that's the that's the backdrop of what the financial system is is working with and and so you know if you're helping uh make transactions private even if you have the best intentions it doesn't seem like the government agre you yeah we're going to need to free Roman storm and you know Ross elck and all these guys that yes I mean it's just the other context with Roman is like he

wrote this code when there was like $10 million in tvl on eth like no one could understand that you know a there was going to be all this growth B would be used for elicit purposes C you know you'd have like this reinterpretation of what you know free speech and code is so I just feel terrible for him and uh yeah I mean the hope is that we can either get these guys off or we can get them pardoned um because I I think what they did you know obviously didn't turn out well you don't want North Korea to launder money or gain any sort of financial resource but just really sad to see someone facing like 25 30 years in jail like yikes man that's tough so if anyone listening knows of

some resources I don't know like a crowdfunding campaign for legal expenses or anything like that there there's one for Roman um and and I think Ross is more of just like a he's I think he's in jail for Life yeah which is I mean crazy uh so either donate or I think the best thing you can do is vote in the upcoming election speaking of by the way before we do that can I actually uh so I was doing some did you guys see this uh headline a little while ago that we you know how we froze those Russian Central Bank assets and now there was a there's a that's making its way through the House of Representatives I think passed the House of Representatives making it

way to the Senate to reappropriate 8 billion worth of that and actually give it to Ukraine and I saw that headline I was like that is insane to me and I wonder if there's any legal precedent for doing that turns out there's a [ __ ] ton of precedent which I was really surprised uh yeah so there's something called the now keep in mind that this started in World War one and World War II but there was something called the alien property Act act which uh was uh it's kind of this collection of different um pieces of legislation like trading with the Enemy act which got passed in 1917 but the US government set up this agency to seize a bunch of property which was owned by German Americans just took it

and then gave it to people which is nuts anyway so this this this this thing uh stayed in effect for like 25 years well after the war they managed hundreds of Millions of dollars at one point which in today's dollars is like um you know many tens of billions and uh I was I was just chap gbt around on this and I was like what what were the implications of this long term and it turned out that it influenced a couple of py uh key acts of legislation which was one um the uh something the international emergency economic Powers Act but the other thing that it directly led to or laid the groundwork for was the Patriot Act so full circle on that um that yeah isn't

that pretty crazy uh a little bit of History so yeah it turns out there is some pretty shitty precedent for this and uh no happy ending I guess at the end of that because we wound up with uh feels like that was not the right result so Krypto may be good at memory holding things but you the United States is really good at memory holding things memory I mean yeah like even I mean we I read about the the Japanese internment system in San Francisco and they put all I think where did they put in Central in central California there were internment camps in central California where all Japanese U us Japanese citizens were set I mean not great I think in some

ways we've come a long way in others it's like man that go dude you know they didn't um I remember so I got taught that in when I was in school but my parents didn't get taught that they just straight up didn't teach that generation they like oh was too it was too close no more news like this for the S we had we had to bury the whole deeper D crazy yeah yeah so not great so should we talk a little bit about there's there's a couple of key pieces of legislation sa 121 which I believe he getting voted on it's happening live right now I've got the live update all right you want to hit us well let's talk about it first because

it also give me more time to see voting W looks like we're killing it we got yeah a bunch of democrat defects like this is going to pass and then Biden will be for to veto it well so here here the here's the the numbers it's looking like it'll be 60 to 40 um or you know 59 to 39 if two people don't show um but that's a 10 vote um swing if uh for those counting at home um but the problem is 67 or 66 is what is needed to be able to overthrow The veto uh and we're not going to get there you don't think no I mean there's one two three four five there would have to be some changes

left I mean but you know what what this does is it puts a very strong message out that it is bipartisan voted on uh Bill and and let's talk about the bill for a little bit so so basically Sab 121 um is a uh repeal of the decision to let to not let Financial depository institutions custody crypto assets on behalf of clients right now what we do have are ways for institutions like Fidelity is a brokerage to be able to have Bitcoin and ethereum within their Fidelity digital assets but for instance JP Morgan is not able to actually custody these assets on

behalf of their clients um and so this would allow depository institutions to be able to cute crypto assets you know why is this so you know unpopular uh or why is there actually any contention here when we've got Fidelity being able to hold some but JP Morgan can't and and coinbase can but while fararo can't it it really in my mind doesn't make very much sense um it's obviously a political move um and I think what's happening right now is that if you do have a 10 vote swing in the Senate and I can't remember exactly what the vote was but I think it was plus 12 or 13 on the Republican on the Democratic side in the

house um it's a bipartisan vote and at the same time that is happening after Biden and the Biden Administration said they will veto this this if passed by both the house and the Senate put basically putting out a shot across the bow saying if you vote for this doesn't matter we will veto this and they knew that they're why did why I why did he do that because and I mean the scuttlebut here is that there is someone else who is not in the administration who is pulling all the streams when it comes to economic and financial policy um and really one of the interesting points is um you know whether or not he's a

one-term president or a two-term president we'll find out in November but when you're the person who's not in the administration who's pulling all the strings and has the ability to dictate economic and and financial policy you're going to do things that are pretty Brash and maybe not in the best interests of the soon to be elected upon president um and you recognize this as potential being a one-term opportunity for you to have control over the situation and if that's the case you're going to do things that run against the grain and run against you know Congress um and so in this case I think it's a prime example of something that

obviously Congress wants but it's not something that you're going to allow because you recognize your potential time to influence policy is fleeted and could be over on November 9th I mean it's it's it's also worth thinking about what are the other hail Maries they could throw in the waiting days of an Administration that wants to set policies in stone I think there's like good things um there's also I mean it's kind of like when Jay Clayton left the SEC in in uh 2016 and he just you know that was when the Ripple case got filed that was for what if there was another it was just the fact that he on his last day as serving as chairman of

the SEC filed the Ripple case it was kind of like poof I'm out yeah um who and he's suspiciously Pro crypto now I've noticed funny how that happens yeah almost like you get paid to go to these events and and speak positively about crypto it's like Ben Ben lasy who designed the uh the bit license oh my and then started a consulting firm right after he left to to advise companies on how to pass the bit license dude absolutely nuts yeah oh wow I found the live feed for this boat where we at how we doing we got 43 yeses 27 Nos and I mean it these people are

literally putting like paper ballots in a box it's amazing that our government is is still run like this in no it's not it's not Ashley paper ballots it's a it's a yes or a no in a roll call he's just nuts like my God I'm with you so here here's the list this is just coming from the bling Association Jill brand uh hicken Looper Peters tester Cinema Rosen Kelly Casey Booker and Lou John hey that's 10 Democrats voting for those D so yeah the politics stuff is just like

I the you know these sorts of things it's just you guys had a little dust up I know I know we did we got a good amount of blowback yeah I I I understand also why people were upset with that like you know my thing is we publish different perspectives like Molly Jane was totally within the right to write that we're gonna have celus is actually um writing something the other side of that and oh man yeah I know so where do you think he's gonna fall no scorer dude uh well yeah I mean it was just interesting to me because we've always had this threat of legislation hanging over us in regulatory fear but

we've never T the nerve of politics right now I think that's where like the Zeitgeist is and where people have fully drawn the battle lines well the the other thing too is like it's been sort of beneath the surface anyone who's paying attention anybody who's in this industry is like this is 100% a partisan issue but what happened last week is on the same day that you have the Biden Administration writing a letter to Congress saying if you pass this the sa 121 that's voted on right now we will veto it the same day you have Donald Trump hosting a bunch of nft holders at Mar Lago getting asked the question how do you feel about crypto oh it's a good thing we're g to support it here we're

not gonna we're not going to push it out of country like yin and yang completely opposite perspectives happening coincidentally on the exact same day and what that does is it tells the world that our two potential potential presidential candidates are 100% on opposite ends when it comes to crypto there is a right and a wrong choice when it comes to voting on if you're Pro crypto if you're not if you want to vote on other reasons that's totally fine but if you're a single issue voter there is a yes and a no answer one one other thing on the regulatory side so the there's like kind of three things Brewing regulatory Sab I forget it's called it's the repeal of this this cussy rule there's fit which is the

market structure Bill and then there's the stable coin bill which is like kind I mean like I guess it's like Somewhere In The Ether but like it seems like that's the closest to actually being potentially passed but fit will also get a vote in the house and like you you look at these regulations and like I think where we're at on fit is like it's great that we're trying to do this this probably isn't the bill that will pass nor the one that is probably most positive for the industry but it it certainly sets up a lot of guidelines and sandboxes and Regulatory uh Pathways for companies to succeed but this stuff is going to be legal pretty soon here and it doesn't really matter which part is in power I would say like Republicans you're going to get probably on the

margins more favorable Bill a bill that passes faster Etc but like crypto is going to become legal and it basically has been illegal for the past since the crash basically MH so I got a question for you guys uh something that I think is a pretty interesting topic of discussion which is these two different viewpoints I've heard Nick Carter say this as well and the two viewpoints around the politics stuff would be you know what uh enough is enough right we've got one party which is clearly Pro crypto in the form of the GOP right now and the Democrats are doing all this underhanded stuff honestly pretty demonstrably and kind of out the open at this point and we should just align right uh and then there's the other perspective which is look at the

end of the day uh these administrations shift their perspectives quite a lot like and here a good example of that would be in you know remember when we went to war in Iraq back in the day and it was like the Republicans are so pro war and now that's flipped and the you know the Democrats are like we got to go to you know back up the ukrainians and all the Republicans are like no no no so these things shift over time and the other perspective is that look crypto is a net neutral technology we don't want to we don't want to get associated with one political party or the other because those things just shift over time I'd be curious where you guys fall on that spectrum and I think it would be an interesting case study I I asked this on Twitter and no one gave me any super

interesting stuff back but I would love to get the history of Silicon Valley which I associate with being very left and I don't know if that's just a byproduct of it being in Silicon Valley I don't know if that was int or like in California I don't know if that was an intentional strategy to get better regulation at some point is that a I just before before Michael digs into the Silicon Valley history I just want to say that like when one side is shooting at you it's pretty easy to tell who's on your side like I I don't think there's like a controversy there and also I think being a single- issue voter is fine like it like imagine if we were going to ban journalism EO one one party say it was the Republicans I'm pretty sure you

would vote Democrat that's fine I think you have the right to call yourself a sing issue voter whatever you on whatever issue that is that you prioritize yeah I so I don't even mind saying I'm extremely conflicted on this um I've actually said in the past like if I was a single isue voter I would be a Singlish voter on education that would be it's just a family value my my family beat it into me they sacrificed a lot for me to go to these good schools and I think it's super important but other than that I've never been a huge fan of single issue voting I mean for me what is happening right now is also existential from Mike personally not me in my block Works hat like d yeah I've built like I've been in this industry for six or seven years like my entire

Financial net worth and honestly my personal the way that I think about myself and what I've been spending my work doing like I'm all tied up in this [ __ ] you know I it's a I think a lot of people probably feel decently conflicted at this particular well I I mean I think a lot of people who live in the United States feel decently conflicted yeah and and just to like put a finer finer pin into it uh I mean Ryan s has talks about this if some certain changes don't happen in the fall uh being a US crypto person maybe someone it may be something where you're focused on outside the US basically heads forth um and and that's fine I mean look most of our Founders most of our portfolio companies are outside the US like we're business as

usual for us and I think for you guys too like you know London Das and thinking about Asian conferences and still have permission list in the US maybe go somewhere else eventually but like it just would suck if we have Focus 100% of our efforts outside the US because that's where this Innovative new technology is happening and and to go back to you know silic Valley stuff and and sort of like the the the difference of the parties keep in mind it was the Clinton era that and Al famously said I invented the Internet like no you basically he said that oh yeah he said I invented the Internet

it like that is that's funny come on I almost respect that that's hysterical and and and then he became a a special adviser to Kleiner Perkins afterwards but the uh the the funny part is I mean it was a Clinton era an Administration that passed laws that basically enabled the commercialization of the internet and that in my mind you know so the whole history of Silicon Valley goes back to Silicon transistors etc etc a lot of that actually spun out of government funded programs because you had to build hard tech you had to do hard science Material Science to be able to invent that technology but then it was the internet

that kind of put Silicon Valley and and the massive you know value that's been created for this country on the map um and and that was enabled by deregulation from the Democrats um and putting safeguards in place to enable the commercialization of the internet it was illegal up until 19 I think 1993 or four to be able to have Financial transactions that commercial transactions that existed on the internet Because the Internet was created by DARPA a government funded entity and so like a lot of history there but it's so funny that the Democratic party which used to be in favor of innovation and used to be in favor of technology and growth is now the opposite and it is now the Republicans who are in favor of all of

that uh I mean even look at the FTC and all the different you know administrative bodies that the government that the the Democrats are are pushing right now there's no m&a activity anymore there's no IPO activ I mean IPO because it you know there's it's tough Market but like nothing can exist uh tough Market tough Market tough tough Market but nothing nothing can really exist uh in the Innovation economy under you know the administration of the Democrats and and I think that that is s stuff that people are starting to recognize there there was also an article just recently I think yesterday uh with David Sachs talking about all of this too um I I think smart people in Silicon Valley are starting to recognize

this let let Kamala cook okay she feels more uh improvisational um than Joe Biden I'm ready for her to cook like if if I had to choose between both of them i' would choose Kamala and I I don't even know what that says about me but I would I would choose Kamala says you're just so goddamn goddamn open-minded fans [Laughter] uh all right well one story I just forgot about frankly but we could just um pour one out there was a 500,000 uh block reorg on the Gen chain so maybe we can save that one for next week

jail you can't [ __ ] do that uh uh that's a long time I I don't I should know if they're back up but they were it was like two full days now the block time for DJ is sub 1 second so 500,000 block sounds a lot worse than it was like 24 hours at that point or maybe 36 hours but yeah you can't go down for that long that's a long time and yeah conduit is running the sequencer I'm pretty sure so we haven't gotten a full postmortem yet but I guess we can pour one out for our homies and uh and just yeah but we should probably I don't even have a comment actually I don't know I just thought it was worth worth bringing up we'll pour one out spiritually but uh I mean let's see how DJ's doing post

reorg not great not not terrible not great um the market weirdly doesn't move sometimes like remember when salana went down for the first time in nine months didn't move up no one here what's that me oh here we go again yeah um dude I had uh one of my like first fouras into stock trading at Netflix was chipot chipot I got chipotle and I bought it after that norovirus scare CU I was like a Chipotle is great like this thing's going go back that was a that was a live fire exercise it was but the reason it was so bad is they had multiple scares they had like two more and on after the second scare I was like

[ __ ] it these guys can't do anything right like you had one job and I sold like the Pico bottom and it's just been up only ever since Ju Just know that when you sell you should understand that it will go up yeah you should yeah you should sell knowing that it will continue to go up and you will be butt hurt these are these are the universal laws of the universe it is 100% unless you decide not to sell in which case you got a lot further down to go which is which kind of another fundamental law in in the words of one of our uh uh LPS you know if you don't want to pay toacy you can just round trip it just round trip that's awesome all right fellas we can

end it there see you guys hey everyone Mike here if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring assets across chains can be a massive pain I certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that is why we are incredibly excited to have teamed up with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol and the coolest part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free click the link at the bottom of this episode take you get your free nft