Ethereum’s Next Act: From Asset to Economy

Transcript

So, we got a little bit of time to talk about basically what the economic activity on Ethereum looks like. It's been a pretty eventful decade. We've seen a crazy idea come to life, and now even more. And if you haven't noticed, the theme this week and the last 6 months has been institutions are finally here, coming, going full steam ahead. And one of the things I want to start off with is trying to sort of just level set a bit. There's been so many things that we've talked about Ethereum can do, and and we wanted people to do on Ethereum. And I'd love to kind of hear, maybe starting with Joe, on just what do you feel like is now finally possible on Ethereum that wasn't possible a year

or two ago? >> Uh, so much is possible on on Ethereum, but I'll I'll focus on two things because they're closely related to what we're doing at at MetaMask and ConsenSys. So, one thing that is possible on the wallet side is that everybody can now have real personal financial agency. You can have your entire financial life fully under your control, permissionless. You don't have to ask your bank manager if you can take out a little bit more money than than they're comfortable with.

And you can via the MetaMask money account put all of your assets into a single personal money operating system. When you put your money into that money operating system, it comes alive in the sense that it's suddenly earning quite a lot of yield, 6% or higher. It remains fully liquid, and you can make use of it in trading and perps and prediction markets, tokenized equities, etc. Um you can invest it in different other ways and you can um pay for things uh either with tokens from the account or or via the uh the debit card, which is a pure blockchain debit card, but it runs

on on the MasterCard rails. On the Ethereum side, um we are on the verge of unifying the entire Ethereum ecosystem. Uh so uh we've been doing some proofs of concept at at ConsenSys. Um I was speaking with uh with Jordi Baylina uh of EEZ um uh and and one of his colleagues also named Jordi last night um and they've been doing uh some really great proofs of concept and and the idea there is that uh we had to, in order to achieve scalability at layer one of Ethereum, and that is moving really well. We're uh we're doubling scalability, we're tripling scalability, and we'll see

scalability grow at layer one by orders of magnitude over the next few years, mostly through zero-knowledge proof technology. But also the the modular architecture, the roll-up-centric roadmap, and actually private from permissioned blockchains using Ethereum technology, using the base U execution technology, um can now be all brought into a unified Ethereum ecosystem where uh using zero-knowledge proofs on the different networks, uh you can compose a bunch of activity. You can take fragmented liquidity and bring it into a unified liquidity pool uh in an atomic execution context, and you can run a whole bunch of transactions across a bunch of

different networks um uh in real time um without the use of dangerous bridges. And so uh we're about to see lots of corporate chains, uh lots of layer twos, uh and uh Ethereum uh will be the credibly neutral, reliable um digital asset settlement platform. >> I feel like you're just going to reset the whole agenda, let's just call it early. >> Yeah, it's all solved. >> But but I'll let Paul and Sam answer to I I like from kind of your perspectives I I feel like a lot of the ideas are now finally coming to light. What do you feel like is a super obvious that wasn't not possible a year or two ago?

>> Yeah, I I I guess for me taking the DeFi and financial products angle, uh the very historic difference compared to 2 years ago is that we have reached feature parity with Web2. What do I mean by this? Is that now that we have full account abstraction and we have lower gas fees, what that means is that you can build financial products for large-scale consumer distribution that you have no idea is powered by Ethereum behind the scenes, right? Like you could not tell. The only, you know, difference is that the financial product that you're going to use is actually of a better pricing, has deeper liquidity because the underlying infrastructure is open and is able to aggregate more liquidity, more competition, etc. etc.

And I think that the the first example of that that we uh at at at Morpho uh built was like integrating into the Coinbases of the world or the Robinhoods of the world where the end users have literally no idea that the chain is behind the scenes, right? And this is only possible uh when you have mature DeFi ecosystem, cheap uh gas fees, uh as well as like a full account abstraction stack. And you combine everything together uh and compose the action such that from the user perspective is just one click that is like no additional cost, nothing.

Um and I think to me this is like the real like zero to one. So, that's one. The second is purely just trust from like all those large like distribution platforms and Wall Street in general where they now recognize blockchains and Ethereum in particular as like a reliable settlement platform where they can have all their user balances like on on a DeFi protocol on Ethereum, right? Like if you take like a Coinbase for example, there's like probably like $3 billion of customer's assets that are on Morpho, right? Robinhood has like a billion dollars of assets that are in the Morpho smart contract, right? So, we're reaching this level of trust with the EVM and and the code that has been built in the EVM

that was definitely not there 2 years ago. And the good news is that this trust is compounding, right? Like people are to see the good big logos like Robinhood, Coinbase doing stuff and they're like, "Oh, wow. Like as a TradFi institution, all this distribution is coming on chain. It means that my ETF that I was distributing on TradFi rails is not going to be, you know, getting that much volume because volume is coming on chain." So, if you're like a Fidelity, if you're a BlackRock, if you're an Apollo, you're thinking about how I how do I move on chain and I start to like operate those rails in order to myself, you know, curate, operate these financial services to offer it to large distribution. And that's a complete zero to one that a year ago was not like a reality.

>> It's like suddenly and then instantly it's just everything's on it. And Sam, I'll allow you uh comments as well. >> So, the question is what Can you repeat the question? >> Just what was not possible a year or two ago on Ethereum that now you're seeing everybody sort of do things and it's sort of really kind of coming to life from the early vision of of >> Yeah, I would have I would never ever imagined. I mean, we've come a long way in just 1 year. So, I guess three things have occurred over the past year that I would not have imagined would have happened anytime in the near future at the time, which is Well, first of all, with respect to the financial institutions, we've seen JP Morgan and BlackRock tokenize their money market funds. You know, that would that would have been a mind-blowing statement to

say just a number of years ago. That happened over the past year. Uh and secondly, you know, we we we see now the rise of uh agent the agentic economy. And I have a lot to say about that today, uh but I think that there is a huge convergence and an intersection with uh with agents. Agents needs They need compute to think and they need money. And that is basically stable coins and we'll talk more about how that intersection will play out for for Ethereum and ETH.

And lastly, you know, businesses are now using crypto to borrow against and build massive data centers. Bit Digital is the first company in history to use its crypto to borrow against it and and build out a 1 million square foot data center in North Carolina to service a $1 billion contract uh with Nscale that's I think IPOing soon. No company has ever done that. And so, I think these are you know, these are major moves uh happening uh that have a connection to Ethereum and uh these are statements that would have been pretty uh impossible to say just a couple of years ago.

>> That's awesome. Um I want to get back to Paul here. So, you're building Morpho into open credit network and there's a pretty big vision behind this thing. I'd love to kind of have the audience understand how you think about the future of Morpho and what does that unlock? >> Yeah, I guess like first so, we think of Morpho as like you know, what we call the open credit network for the world. Like concretely, what does that mean? It's like you have people that have an excess of capital, they want to generate interest. You have people that have a need for financing, you know, they have ambitions they want to realize for the world and and our goal is to match the two, right? Like meet people that are willing to trust the ambition of someone else with capital and fund them. And and the goal of Morpho is to establish the

most efficient matching between the two parties, right? And then you you you you So, the reason why you want to do this is basically you want to reduce the the cost that people have to trust each other, right? Uh and and in order to do that, you're thinking, "Hey, we need like a shared like settlement layer where this is going to be able to happen to aggregate all the lenders and all the borrowers in one place in order to make things happen, right?" And and and so blockchains are obviously a very natural environment for that where by definition the infrastructure is open and so as a result you have much more competition, right? I really think like you know, I I like to think of the killer use case of blockchain being openness and openness fosters two interesting things for

financial infrastructure, uh competition and pricing and accessibility, right? So, very concrete example and and coming back to like, you know, how Coinbase built loans on on Morpho, they used to have a centralized service for loans, right? That was not built on blockchains, etc. In order to issue the loans, they had like a intermediaries and the rate was very high. What happens now is that they settle directly uh on on on blockchain. And so, when this happens, you have tens of thousands of lenders that are going to come on the other side and that are going to compete to give Coinbase like the best interest rate possible. So, what effectively we're doing as Morpho uh is we're collapsing the spread between the lending rates and the borrowing rates.

And that spread today in the economy is very high. Like that's the net interest margin that you have, you know, of banks. That's approximately 3% on the global economy, right? And so, we think of our mission that collapsing that cost of trust, right? Collapsing the the the spread between the lending rate and the borrowing to to have cheap funding. And obviously, the only way to do this is through like open infrastructure and and like this core protocol Morpho that is like built on top that can aggregate intents of of both parties. >> Yeah, can I just follow on on uh on what Paul said? Um what's really going on here is that we are um at the point where we're scalable and usable and reliable enough so that we can transform how business works on this

planet. Essentially, the way the way the way trust has worked is top-down command and control systems. You got authorities, you got trusted third parties, and we are replacing that kind of trust which is somewhat abused at times, somewhat capricious at times, and generally rewards the centralized controlling parties more than all the rest of us. And so, we're replacing that with a new form of trust. Satoshi invented the most powerful form of trust, decentralized trust. And now we're able to Now we've attracted the attention of governments and financial institutions, and they recognize that, "Hey, this is

good. This is really powerful. We can, instead of being your trusted counterparty with all sorts of regulations to make sure that we don't steal your money, we can imbue the trust of a decentralized protocol in market-based systems like Morpheus, where you're interacting with your peer counterparties rather than the house. As we all know, the house always wins, and essentially we're moving into a much more decentralized economy. >> No, I I absolutely agree. It's also just creating these systems that are not sort of giving the power to the other side. And then the fact they now have the infrastructure to do so is

a pretty big unlock. I do have a question for Sam before we kind of get to some of the other stuff around the economic activity on Ethereum, but Bit Digital to me is a very interesting sort of approach to to the space. Could you tell us more about how you're set up? How does it work with Wi-Fiber? And And what is it different than just a traditional e-treasury company that others may have heard of? >> Yes, so Bit Digital is a publicly listed company on Nasdaq, and it's a very simple company. It's just two line items on its balance sheet. It's a bunch of Ethereum. That's the first line item. The second line item is a 60% controlling stake of a company called White Fiber that IPO'd last year also on NASDAQ. And White Fiber is a pure play AI uh infrastructure company.

Uh it has a cloud business, a very successful one. It has a very successful uh colocation business on the data center side servicing more than a billion dollars worth of contracts over the next few years. So, the reason why we positioned ourselves this way is because we we're not we're not in the business of just accumulating ETH and putting it on our balance sheet. We think that that is not an alpha producing posture. Uh and we don't think that's actually a full-time job as well.

So, we so we felt that it's important to have an operating business as well. We have an incredibly successful one through White Fiber. Um and it is servicing the AI economy. And that's really important because there's absolutely no company no public company in the world that I know of that represents economically the convergence of artificial intelligence and Ethereum, which will eventually intersect in a in a huge way. Now, I'm hopefully there'll be a moment to get into that later. So, that that's how we've set ourselves up. Um I think we're pretty unique in that manner. Um we do we do have our our our criticism of pure play dots. That's why we've sort

of moved away from that category. I I wish that category never was in invented. I think that's a terrible category and a bad way to measure yourself. But, uh here we are. >> Sorry, I have to jump in. >> [laughter] >> There's going to be some tension. So, while you're No tension. I I [laughter] have a huge amount of respect for for Sam and their business model. I I think the marriage of AI and ether and decentralized protocols is a very powerful direction. So I fully understand what he's saying, but I do believe that pure play dots that choose the right token are

incredibly valuable for their shareholders and for the ecosystem that they operate in. >> Is it with the assumption that you have to actively deploy capital to increase the asset value or just the fact that you need an institutional buyer for this and this is the easiest way to get that demand. Because it's the productivity of those assets that gets you that yield or alpha or just the the ecosystem to grow? >> But Joe Joe I would I would challenge that a little bit. So if if you believe there's >> Let me say something first before you challenge it. So so for Sharp Link and for our friends at BMNR, we are focused on um uh

uh attract or collecting yield from staking into the protocol. So there's a risk-free yield that that we can capture relatively easily. There are things that we can do over and above that risk-free yield that are very low risk sitting in qualified custodians and there are other things that we can do in terms of investing in companies that are aligned with the Ethereum mission that are designed to grow the value of the ether token, grow the size of the Ethereum community and so um all of that is just really active activity and we have 10 people with

full-time jobs really the best and the brightest people who who do a great job on that. Um, and the idea is that uh if you can grow the amount of Ether uh that you're exposed to um in a sort of passive way from the shareholders' perspective because we are working for the shareholder to grow how much ETH uh you're effectively in control of, um this is really the start of the next generation economy, which is going to last decades or centuries, who knows. Uh and so um having a uh having a giant pile of the highest powered money, um collateral money, Ether, um

what will we be able to do in terms of giant businesses in the future? Um and um from a personal perspective uh being exposed to the next generation of highest powered money um is going to be very good for the shareholders. >> I mean, I I I don't uh I don't think you're on different sides at all. Yeah, I don't argue against the I mean, Ethereum is an incredible technology. Thank you for bringing it to life, Joe. Uh I think I think um the issue is that these DApps are trading at a discount to NAV, and so the markets are making their decision on on the value of that.

>> correlated with the Ether token. >> Fair. But just to be clear, I don't argue against the value of ETH. That's it. Ethereum solves for escrow through atomic swap technology. That is very powerful. That takes away the middleman. I used to be a banker and a lawyer, so I was the ultimate middleman. And I'm very aware of how useless my value was in those in what I was doing for like a decade uh being involved in those professions. And when when uh when Ethereum came out, I realized that my professions in banking and as a lawyer was redundant. Uh and that's why I joined your movement. But my my argu- my argument about the pure play dot is just that the markets have

made up their mind that we're trading at a discount. Bit digital trades at a premium if you remove the white fiber aspect, but it's just a difficult yardstick, I think, to be to be measured in that front because >> That's a view in a in a slice of time. So so it it's likely to cycle. >> Yeah. >> I guess maybe to add my perspective on that because why not? >> Uh I think the way I like to think about that, even the pure player that, is the jewel of tokenization. Like purely from an investor distribution perspective, uh we have all those crypto assets that, you know, could be distributed to broader audiences on trad-fi marketplaces, right? And so just purely the most simple like, you know, stupid

that that does not do anything, just the fact that it's available to a broader set of investors to allow for broader investor distribution in my sense is is is is valuable, right? From a purely like expansion of the investor set. So just like, you know, trad-fi brings their assets on chain through tokenization, we can bring our assets to their markets through through that. Uh and I think this uh in itself is is valuable. But I don't think the panel is about that. >> Yeah, yeah, I was going to say. But but but what you said is actually very interesting cuz that was sort of my next question, which is you were now in the perfect sort of center of institutions coming to you wanting to figure out what they can do on chain. And I'd love to kind of understand what is something common in terms of the conversations

you're having. Are they just excited about more yield and that's going to be the only that matters? Are they excited about just finally having some obvious thing that they can do on chain? And that's what they're interested or or is it just that there's a bigger market now? Like what stands out and why is it exciting to them? A lot of things. Not much I can talk about, but what I can share institutions in general now trust blockchains as a settlement layer. They all believe uh in the promise of the open financial I mean, the promise of the open financial system settling on blockchain is too big to fail. Like, it is going to happen. It's just a matter of time. So, what they see their role in this is the following. And how they approach DeFi specifically is the following.

They want to use blockchain and DeFi as a technology. Right? Those guys are asset managers. They've been doing this for decades and decades. They know this thing much better than most crypto people. Right? However, they want to use the chain for two things. Control and network. Right? Control for them is the ability to upgrade their back end, upgrade their software in order to offer financial products that are, you know, 24/7 where they can control the risk, they can control the rate, they can control the compliance, and they, you know, are capable of having like interest rate that are paid every second and that are um uh on on on which they they don't like have to rely on crypto native people to

manage their assets for them. They're not interested into investing in DeFi protocols that are are managed by like DeFi natives. They're interested in taking control of the DeFi protocol. Uh and so so that's the the first thing. And so that's basically you could argue you could do outside of the chain, right? Like in a you know, a modern back end like Rust, whatever. the business value for them is the network effect. Like is the distribution. you have more and more assets on chain. Right? They see all the distributors that I've been referring to. They're all like every single fintech as a road map in the next 3 years to move entirely on chain. Like every single one of them.

Right? They're all moving to self-custodial wallets. They're all moving to their settlement on chain. And so the distribution is coming on chain. And so as an asset manager, as a financial institution, you don't have the choice. This is where the the the money is going to be. This is where the business is going to be. And so their approach is hey, we're going to come on chain, we're going to take control of those financial primitives, and we are going to try to collect the distribution and where where it lands, right? So, what does that mean concretely? Because that's a bit abstract, right? First, it starts with tokenization. I bring my products on chain and try to make sure I'm distributed where the distributors are coming on chain. But, tokenization it to me it's a bit like a Frankenstein, right? Like

>> This is a means to an end, but not the actual >> Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's It's just like you have this very modern technology that basically you just like tokenize the share of a fund, but the fund itself still runs on on on infrastructure that was built before Vitalik was born, right? And and and so and and so you basically send the money on chain and then it goes into this like very old infrastructure. And so, we think you have to rebuild the entirety of the fund structure, the entirety of the origination on chain directly, right? And that's what we call vaults, right? Basically. It's like the next step is like you're going to run your fund entirely on chain in non-custodial way or in a regulated way.

And and you're going to bring borrowers and origination on chain, etc. And they realize this as well. So, this is the next step for them is like, "Hey, how can you start leveraging the on chain economy not just as distribution, but the computer to start managing funds on chain, to start using your tokenized assets as collateral to borrow money, etc. etc." >> Awesome. All right, we have 5 minutes and I have three really important questions, so we're going to try to be concise with our answers and I'm going to start with Sam cuz I want all three of your opinions on a bunch of these things. So, the question I have for Sam is, well, especially with the Wi-Fi engine relation to kind of the strategy of Bit Digital, I'm kind of curious to see how you think about the overlap of AI with crypto in terms of just kind of

what does it mean for stablecoin, agentic payments, and what excites you about that future? We're going to start with that. >> Well, so that that that is a huge topic. I'll I'll be concise, however. So, you know, agents need compute to think and agents also need something to pay with and I think that's obviously uh where Ethereum could play a huge role. I think there would be a There's going to be a supernova in the in the Ethereum and ETH uh, world uh, because the agentic economy is a real thing. And um, I hope I hope everybody here listens to this because in the next few years that's basically what our lives will be mostly dealing with, agents. And so, if you think about it,

uh, artificial intelligence is basically machine native intelligence and Ethereum is machine native money. And these are very similar languages and and and banks and credit card companies that they're those things were built for humans. Uh, and uh, they weren't really built for agents. And so, there is an incredible opportunity uh, for ETH to to position position itself to be the the the the native and organic and natural go-to for agents to me to be making payments. And so, if you see all these machines coming online, you know, in the past last year in every single conference it was about getting humans involved in Ethereum. I

actually don't care about that anymore. I want machines to get involved in Ethereum. That's a That's a >> 100 much bigger number. >> That's a million X opportunity. So, machine to machines, they need humans out of the way and you have that with Ethereum because Ethereum solves for escrow, takes out the middleman, takes out what I used to be. And it just speaks to each other and [clears throat] I think that's really an incredible opportunity. So, that's that's where I'm excited about it and I know I'm right. Uh, it it's going to be It's going to be really obvious in the future, uh, but um, but it's not so obvious now.

>> No, I I absolutely agree. Um, what kind of a question for for Joe and uh, and >> Can I jump in on that one? >> I'll ask the question but I think you can choose to blend in cuz it it it adds on to it. Like one of the things I'm curious about is as we kind of hear institutions coming in, one of the common themes that I feel like becomes a given is that they know how to make money already. They're just doing it in a new rail cuz they're they're thinking of it as infrastructure. So, how do you going to think about the next few years of what does it mean for ETH the token and the value accrual to to ETH? And would love to kind of get your and Paul's view on this, too. >> Okay. Can I talk a little AI first?

>> Please. >> So, so first despite the fact that I just said AI, I don't really like the term artificial intelligence. I don't call search artificial search. Essentially, machine intelligence enables us all to access the the sum total wisdom of humanity, best practices, mentoring, tutoring, etc. And so, I really think that humanity will be in the center of the evolution of a human machine intelligence economy. And so, where this ramifies for us is in our MetaMask financial services system, we need to get it right and very delightful for the user. But then we

build machine intelligence into the system so that everybody can understand what's going on in this pretty complicated technology. And so, machine intelligence is a user manual for life on planet Earth. And I think I I think that it's going to supercharge the economy with us at the center of it. Just I think it's important to be positive about machine intelligence. And where do I think the system of the world is going? I think we're moving into a a much more decentralized global economy because

we're scalable enough to do that. I think layer one is going to be incredibly neutral, censorship resistant, high throughput, very high throughput, a national uh digital asset settlement layer and coordination layer uh for major entities and valuable assets and valuable protocols. I think layer twos and private permission networks are are all going to start to reflect what the economies look like and what the nation-states look like. Uh these modules are very useful for um for corporations to put their stuff on it, to put their assets on it, to uh bring their partners in and their users onto it. Uh layer twos and other are good for consortia or gaming ecosystems,

etc. So, so that I think is going to be the architecture for the world. Um all the blockchain systems flow to and through Ethereum. So, it's all going to be We're not going to be talking Ethereum and Solana and and other protocols that much, the same way we don't talk uh TCP/IP and um and other protocols uh uh on the web. We're just going to be using applications. And and so, where does the value flow to? Uh two answers. One, uh the the one that you were looking for is that there's going to be a huge amount of contention at layer one. There's going to be a lot of usage, staking, burning of ether at layer twos and in even uh private permission chains. Uh so, when things get really

going, when we start burning lots of ether, um uh ether is going to have an enormous monetary premium and uh there will be much more demand um for ether than supply. Um but the real uh the sort of longitudinal way to think of where the value flows to, um we're moving from an economy uh that and a society that is scarcity-based to one that is abundance-based. And so, we're with the use of machine intelligence, with the use of decentralized trust, uh we're going to all be able to do anything we want. We're going to be able to create projects that grow as big as we can put attention into them. And so,

the value is going to be everywhere. It's going to be a fractally expanding global economy. So, yes, layer one ether will will will get a bid, but everybody will be able to make their own magic internet money and and create their own value. >> Amazing. Well, my final question to all of you, maybe we can get a quick line on that one is just Ethereum's been around for over a decade and we kind of all knew it from the world computer, but people kind of come in different years, have different version of it. So, what widely held belief about Ethereum that you feel like is something should people should reconsider now that we've kind of seen a whole incredible decade of accumulation around the progress on the project. And what do you think people should unlearn about Ethereum? We'll start with Paul.

>> Yeah, I I think again, to me, blockchain is all about having an open infrastructure. And for me, finance is all about connecting people. Like, finance is about like connecting intense between people. And the more the most open infrastructure will foster the most amount of connectivity, right? And in order to be the most open to everybody, you have to be neutral. In order to be neutral, you have to be the most decentralized layer. So, this is really what it boils down to. The best financial primitives, the best settlement layers, the most competitive pricing, the deepest liquidity comes down to openness. Openness comes down to neutrality. Neutrality comes down to

decentralization. And I think people don't realize how important that is for like, you know, Ethereum like positioning in in in general. >> Sam. >> The question is just >> What do you think people should reconsider about Ethereum now? >> Um well, I think I think I think Ethereum and crypto in general, unfortunately, has a bit of a stain. And I think it's really from the past few years of like price chasing. And and I think there's been a lot of resistance, particularly by boomers that are in certain positions at financial institutions.

They they just have a dark view of As soon as you say the word crypto, you could you could tell something shuts down. I use the word digital assets, and same thing, right? But they're they're they're fine. So, I think generationally, you know, we everybody here has normalized have normalized crypto in in their portfolio portfolios, and and I think once Gen Gen Z, Gen X even, and millennials they're in the positions of power, and that's that's happening now, they'll normalize digital assets or crypto, and and then you're going to see massive a massive movement towards the normalization and institutionalization of Ethereum, and I think that's that's something that will happen in and I think over the next 10

years when when when, you know, these boomers die. So, I >> I think >> Boomer. Uh I I I think there's a widely held misunderstanding that that's promulgated by different protocols, VCs, journalists, um that um there are lots of competing systems uh that are gaining tremendous traction, um and that's because these people are spending um much of their effort on marketing. Um they're building, you know, meme coin casinos and things like that. So, they're they're actually creating a lot of entertainment. Uh I I appreciate what they're doing, uh but

the the real core ethos of our ecosystem is about decentralization. It's about lots of independent entities uh coming together to build a public good shared protocol, a credibly neutral infrastructure for the planet. And so, when people complain that the Ethereum Foundation isn't doing well, or the Ethereum technology isn't doing well, it's simply wrong. People point to the public >> conflict conflict Where's the CEO of Ethereum? Why is he not moving the the ticker up, right?

>> Sorry? >> The CEO of Ethereum, where is he? >> Where's the seat Yeah, exactly. So, Ethereum is being built by a lot of independent aligned entities. There's a very well-understood process and it's great to have vigorous discussion and conflict etc. rather than having your protocol which looks a little more like a company than a rigorously decentralized protocol. >> Well, decentralization is why we're here and why this industry got started. So, Joe, Paul, Sam, thank you for an amazing conversation. Please give them a big round of applause.