Ethan Buchman & Zaki Manian: ATOM 2.0 – Deep Dive #466

Transcript

foreign welcome to epicenter the show which talks about the Technologies projects and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution I'm Sebastian croutio and I'm here with my co-host Brian crane today we're speaking with Zaki manian co-founder of occlusion and Ethan Buckman co-founder of Cosmos and head accountant at informal uh no he's the CEO of informal but based on how he's dressed he could be the HR manager um I will be talking about Adam 2.0 and Diving deep into this topic which I mean I feel like I've been just talking about for the last three weeks non-stop on like podcasts and tourist spaces and everywhere but hopefully we get to the bottom of it today before we talk to Zachy and Ethan about the atom 2.0 white paper and some of the recent changes

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full details can be found at careers.corus.1 slash o slash epicenter Dash Community Dash manager that's a bit of a mouthful we'll put that in the show notes and uh please share this with anyone you think might be a good fit for this position so thank you for joining us guys uh for this very important conversation about Adam 2.0 um yeah give us a bit of a give us the arch of how this how we got here you know Adam 2.0 was announced the cosmo verse I guess now three weeks ago um what's happened since then and did it go as you expected yeah I'd say I mean I think the main the

main goal was to kick off a vigorous conversation about our Adam's political economy and I think that has clearly been achieved this is the most you know vigorous uh set of discussions we've we've we've seen today then it's it's quite delightful um to actually see all that and and uh you know to see the the passion and enthusiasm about about the project and there were some very bold uh you know offers let's say in in the paper um and so there's you know um rightly so there's uh that's kicked off a lot of discussion some controversy you know there's there's gonna need to be changes but um you know we wanted we wanted to kick this thing off with a bang um and put out a really strong vision for what the future of the cosmos Hub could look like and that should include

some you know potentially large controversial um controversial changes that might need to get worked out and so I think we're really excited about the level of Engagement we've seen and you know there's work now on a charter there's a lot of discussions around um you know how we uh how we're going to do governance moving forward and all this stuff and so you know at Cost Converse I sort of talked about how there's these sort of three big phases of Cosmos you know start with this initiation phase which we completed which started with a white paper which we shipped in completion right and now we're moving into the integration phase and this has its own white paper for the Hub but you know there's a lot more to it and it's really about upgrading the overall political economy of the The Interchange ecosystem of the cosmos Hub

and um and and that process is is kicking off now so uh you know this podcast and all the other discussions are kind of a big part of that so yeah okay and what's that what's her face three phase three I call the illumination phase where we're all finally awakened to uh you know the reality of the payments graph and and and crypto finally has its impact on the world and we can break out of our you know speculative crypto Bubbles and actually uh you know meaningfully uh restructure the global monetary system [Laughter] of course I'll have to be wearing uh you know I might need a different tie for that phase you're gonna need a three-piece suit for that one yeah yeah yeah exactly yeah

okay that'll be the tux foreign maybe one thing we can also uh I think make sense to ask about this point so we have this white paper right and there's a lot of authors on there there's like 10 people and then I think there's like you know other people that were involved in some way that you know aren't even on there so can you talk a bit about like what first of all what was the goal of this white paper and what was the process of writing this white paper um okay so maybe I can I can come at like at two things one the goal of this white paper is to tr is to let out a vision from that basically takes oh they're a bit I think

there is a group of people who work on Cosmos who feel like the cosmos Hub has been abandoned um that was like it was it was just collectively abandoned um over the last a few years it did not have uh any strong Vision everyone uh so many people who used to work on you know Adam and the cosmos Hub uh started their own chains you know you have this vast post all in bits diaspora um you certainly had a team at the inner chain Foundation but they their mandate was much more like maintenance um and following a relatively conservative road map um not you know change what Adam is change what Adam means all of this stuff

um uh what what like the whole you know the whole political economy about Adam way at an ambitious road map try to try to even imagine what Adam would look like as like a top 10 crypto asset what Adam looks like as a driving force for change for like all of like uh uh like economics generally like how do we so so there's like just sort of this abandonment and lack of ambition that was like pervading um the cosmos Hub as a culture um also the political economy of the cosmo side was never ending um sort of back and forth between all and bits and the ICF over who is supposed to even be involved in charge of this thing with neither party really wanting to be in charge

um and so like that was that's kind of the framework the framework was break out of that cycle um the second component of it was so then it was the process like um the process was like in sort of I would say so you know the liquid staking work that occlusion has been working on has been going on since 2021 um it took quite a bit it you know has been it's been it's been a slow burn to bring um to figure out how to make liquid sticking and it it liquid staking always seemed like a very important primitive um because of the fact that we don't want to have defy on the Hub um we needed to figure out uh uh like liquid staking is a very natural uh

solution to the problem of um how do we get out of an exponential issuance regime and if you as long as you're locked into the exponential issuance regime like your ability to change anything else um uh is very limited right like the the potential capabilities of the Hub so we we have this like sort of long-term uh thing where like the occlusion co-founders me Christy Tony shella a team at occlusion have been like diligently pushing forward liquid staking because of the fact that it unlocks a lot of other possibilities but the other thing that we saw during the sort of uh you know 2021 uh uh uh cycle is we saw a lot of new economic

crypto economic experiments we saw Mev become go from being like a thing that people have been in the cosmos Community have been hypothesizing about since 2015 and 2016 um becoming like an actual industry um we saw like um you know Sunny was tweeting about um and like sunny and me and taruneta like DMS about you know how fascinating the like Olympus Dow mechanism was um and all of these things kind of got sort of eventually started to come together as a set of building blocks um and then an r d effort was kicked off with many many people um uh many of whom are authors but many more uh people are not authors

um you know and we had you know um you know we also you know we like uh uh Christy and myself we invested in Mech attack we invested in skip we were talking to all of the Meb people I spent a lot of time at the flashbots people there's this like whole research effort that like was just kind of uh many different people I met Max who want who you know really uh turned the allocator from being just like a a set of bullet points for a long time I met him at the hallways of Osborne and Max and Sam were able to like work together to turn the alligator into like a fully fleshed out idea or at least a partially fleshed out idea um you know the idea of uh you know Jahan and the and like the informal ICS

team became like big contributors to the idea of the scheduler Sam also was a huge driver of the scheduler idea but we all talked to uh our friends at Skip and mega Tech extensively um so like there's just this whole sort of somewhat organic Community Driven r d effort to try and bring all these pieces together and then we decided to set ourselves a hard deadline of having something big to announce a cosmo verse and uh and we were able to get a draft of the white paper out by then and uh kick off this conversation yeah I think this is one of the things that stands out uh regarding the wife here but it's just there's a lot in

there right there's a lot of different uh you know things have been worked on and uh you know on new things right so some things that I think are like reasonably well known and some things I think were very new so I think maybe it would make sense is we can talk a little bit about some of those changes that uh you know either are like coming and in works or that are you know are being proposed here and and then talk you know then maybe step it take a step back talk to us about governance this entire process and yeah maybe but I would say let's start with interchange security I think interchange security is something we've actually never talked about on this podcast uh I think in the cosmos Community it's like reasonably well known but I think I I

wouldn't say it's something that's well known in a large crypto community so like what's interchange security and what is the role that engine Security will play in Cosmos in the future uh so if you don't mind just before we go and we go into interchange security just just to add a little bit more framing um to the structure of the white paper and you know and why we would jump right into interchange security at a high level you know the white paper is really putting forth like like three key pieces um that of like how to think about the future of the Hub right the first is that there's a new secure economic scaling layer that includes interchange security and liquids taken right and it proposes that interchange security is the way to build new functionality for the Hub and liquid staking is the way to

extend the economic zone of the cosmospherezaki was referring to before right and and you know inclusion did all this work on it on liquid staking and foreign security to set this foundation for how we could extend the sort of economic reality um of the Hub so that's that's the base layer right and in some sense the the everyone kind of knew or was supportive of of these two kind of key features but then the question the paper wanted to answer is well how do we build an actual product out of this and and a vision for the Hub that is built on top of this new secure economic base layer and so you know the next sort of key piece of the paper is that okay we can create an economic flywheel uh on top of these two things using uh you know these new proposals of The

Interchange scheduler and and The Interchange allocator which we can obviously get into um in a lot more in a lot more detail later on and then in order you know in order to make all of this work it's going to require basically a new governance system and and treasury to oversee development and facilitate um the sort of on-chain on-chain coordination so those are really the three piece of secure economic scaling the economic flywheel with the scheduler and the allocator and then the governance and the treasury and you know they're being proposed as an integrated whole because the idea is that we kind of need all of this to put forward a new um a new vision for the Hub right so so that's the kind of higher level higher level Framing and then we could start going through you know all the different um all the different pieces and so

starting with interchange security the Crux of interchange security you know just just base layer is uh you know we want the Hub to be a a simple minimalistic low surface area high security uh trusted reliable place to custody assets to you know enter the the ecosystem to integrate against um and and so on and that requires a particular kind of care Around It software development life cycle and because there isn't a virtual machine on the Hub and there's General uh you know agreement that they're that there ought not to be a virtual machine on the Hub the the idea is that the proper way to extend the functionality of the Hub is to follow you know standard good software development principles of modularity you know and build things um you know in separate modular components

and because we have IBC because we have the power of tenorment and all this amazing stuff we can actually build additional functionality for the Hub as separate blockchains where the validators are the same as the validators for the cosmos top right and that's the sort of core base idea of interchange security is it's a way to extend the functionality of the cosmos Hub by spinning up new blockchains that that inherit the same uh the same valid intercept right and that that can resolve a lot of you know tensions we've seen in the past over governance proposals some new feature wants to be developed someone wants to ship you know Cosmos into the Hub or something like that there's there's you know a big contentious vote and uh there's a lot of concerns around around the security what kind of surface area this would open up

on the Hub and and so on and so interchange security allows us to preserve the minimalism of the core Hub while still allowing the functionality to expand around the Hub um using you know all the protocols and all the all the pieces we've already built in the sort of bottom-up way right and so while we see many other projects in the ecosystem pursuing shared Security Solutions and charting and all these kinds of things in sort of a top-down way you know we built IBC it was IBC is a general purpose communication protocol for you know arbitrary State machines essentially um and it was always sort of known that on top of IBC in a more bottom-up way we would build these more complex cross-chain protocols one obvious one being interchange security where you can

simply inherit the validator set from another change um so that's the that's the sort of high level high level initial framing of course you can do a lot more with interchange security it can become a vehicle for other chains that aren't just trying to extend the functionality of the Hub per se but are you know looking for a secure validator set to launch an application and will maybe spin out into a sovereign chain over time or existing Sovereign chains want to spin in and sort of join the economic zone around around the cosmos Hub there's a lot more uh sort of political economics that can play out once you have this feature of interchange security but it's really a sort of Base functionality that enables the the economics economic zone around the Hub uh to start to expand yeah I mean I I think in that you you

brought it up right because I feel like that that's one point where it's maybe a little bit confusing sort of you know what what is the main vision for interchange Security in the future right because one is okay there's a hub and you know there's this idea oh let's put Cosmos on the Hub and then there was resistance and it's like okay let's put it in this separate chain that's still secured by the cosmos Heart by atoms you know but it's kind of decoupled so it's it's the sort of like maybe good compromise but and you can imagine like different types of things where like okay the Hub says we want to have additional functionality and we put it there but then the other thing is is okay we you just have some some chain and they don't want to run their own validator set right and they

want to use their validated set of the cosmos hop and then they're kind of like buying uh basically not that dissimilar from something like in polka dot right where yeah uh parachain basically leases this slot and then gets this valid data set and you know the security and the processing of transactions yeah so how do you see this in the future do you think there's going to be you're going to evolve into you know some marketplace where you know like lots of new chains can come and kind of bid for places or um so I'll I I just want to kind of go come at this so first thing I would say is

empirically I was wrong about interchange security I was wrong in a couple of different ways so one was I so like the reason I supported prop 69 was I thought that the demand for energy like interchange security was going to be low for sort of external teams that we wouldn't actually be able to grow the developer base of the cosmos Hub so we would just end up in a situation where you had like the same Cosmos of Team supporting like 15 chains so for each like for features that we wanted on the cosmos Hub um instead of uh and so that was kind of a little bit of like why I thought prop

69 was a good what good thing and I was completely wrong about this um empirically uh like we have attracted an enormous an expanding set of Builders um into the cosmos Hub ecosystem um through the feature of interchange security like I was completely wrong about it empirically uh you know just from talking to all these this entire universe of potential users there's an enormous amount of latent demand for energy insecurities product people are very excited about it and that is a huge factor in how we are have how we have started you know and and basically going through the sales cycle like I think the sales cycle of actually trying to convince projects to to join in to use

interchange security like kicked off seriously um maybe in the spring of of 2020 uh of this year yeah and so when we when we kicked that off initially I don't think it was going it was it was going about as badly as I was expecting and then we just started hitting user after user after user and it has just been um so that that like really reshaped that was a huge influence on the white paper because it said hey like we really do see signs of product Market fit here with interchange security we should design the white paper to like to like you know push down on the gas and go go as fast as we can and like essentially this become you know in some senses like

we're investing in the growth of energy and security because we have such strong signal of product Market fit yeah yeah I mean I I would say I was uh I was somewhat um uncertain about the product Market fit of of interchange security for other chains what I was confident in you know the reason I didn't support prop 69 at the time was because it it certainly I always felt that the interchange security was the right way to sort of offload the risk um of of developing The Hub and you know have the Hub be able to serve as this sort of stable mature kind of uh minimalistic anchor where you could extend the function right so you could extend the functionality with interchange security so even if there wasn't the sort of demand from other chains to use it there was still a base case just from a you know better

software development life cycle kind of long-term um development of these systems that made interchange security make sense just as a way to expand the Hub and expand the teams of the Hub right and once once a formal sort of got building interchange security and we had something real that people could actually start to believe oh this is really coming soon you know then we started going to Market and we started to see you know maybe somewhat to our surprise somewhat some people thought it would be you know in high demand others were kind of less sure um there there seems to be a huge amount of demand for it and and that's gonna that's gonna change over over time we don't know exactly how it's going to change over time um we think we could build out a very healthy economy around the cosmos Hub

and and that's part of lexaki was saying part of the motivation um for the paper was to kind of build on that on what appears to be you know strong product Market fit for for interchange security but even without it you know you have to keep in mind that there's still this base case of this is the right way to extend the functionality of the Hub from a pure like sound software development uh kind of principles perspective and and one of the things we are trying to achieve is to transform the way software is built and deployed right in in the long term and that's something Cosmos has been working on for a long time that's like part of you know informal systems mission statement um and that's something we're doing I mean the way the way people are building blockchains today is you know unlike

anything they were doing um five years ago and we hope that's gonna you know continue to have an impact on the wider software development community and you know we're trying to prove that out with these new you know these new ways of building on the internet of blockchain so yeah one of the things that I find interesting about interchange security and I don't know if this is still in the roadmap but it's these different versions that have been uh kind of laid out for how interchange Security will uh will roll out so the the first version I believe is this where a chain that's on interchange security inherits the entire balloter set and then there's a second version where they can then inherit a partial matters that are more like an opt-in um um relationship with validators and then there's a there's a third version where

they can have part part of their validator set be The Interchange security uh set so like the the set that's securing the cosmos Hub and then they can also onboard their own validators externally right so if another validator that's not on the cosmos Hub and part of The Interchange security set that validator could also onboard and be part of that chain security when I first heard this I thought there's a logical version four and that version four is where like chains are just validating each other and this this idea has been put forth recently you know by sunny and and the osmosis team and you know their their vision for how we arrive at um

say a more interconnected interchange is through this mess security model and I I wonder you know I'd like to confront maybe with this like this this security idea that does interchange security at some point um become uh more of a mesh uh in rather than this more like Hub and spoke model that I think the Hub has been carrying for like a long time and is seems to be carrying in these different versions or at least in this this Vision that's been laid out that does it arrive at where you know everything's just validating and securing each other at some point uh to some extent I mean you know if you look back at the at the original at the

original coggles have white paper yes it's proposing a hub and spoke model but it's not just proposing one Hub right it's proposing a multiplicity of hubs and it's saying we're going to start with you know we're going to build one Hub but there ought to be others and and and that's in the paper and so in in some sense the the topology of the cosmos Network and you know what we now call the inner chain was always left open and was always expected to be a mesh right it's not just a pure Hub and spoke model but if you look at any any uh you know Network in the real world they tend to have kind of power law scaling they tend to have nodes that are more you know well connected than others they don't have singular hubs but they do have you know it's not like a pure

Hub and spoke but it there are you know nodes in the network that are considered more hub-like than than others and and you know the being a hub is sort of a fractal pad you can look at airports and um and and things like this as an example and so again that's always been sort of part of the uh idea of how the The Interchange would emerge that we would build this permissionless Communications protocol topology would would sort of emerge emerge from it and there are many many ways just to share security Over The Interchange and have different chains or to participate in each other's security budget you know like you've sort of articulated here there's there's interchange security V1 which you can at the very least think about you know just as a way for the Hub to extend its own functionality uh there's the fabled V2 and V3 you know

which you're referring to and then and then there's this you know V4 I guess you could call mess security if um if you like I don't know if they like calling it calling it before it's also a very interesting idea but there's much there's much more too right there's there's other ways to kind of share security across the interchain there's now ideas around um heterogeneous tenderment right where you can basically do something we're talking about for a few years now especially with the as well with the enoma team where um you can leverage overlap that exists uh between the validator sets to get stronger guarantees out of the consensus and of the ordering and and so on and mesh security is sort of a start at that but it's really just about you know uh some slashing and you know it doesn't really do much for transaction ordering

whereas we could do a lot more so yeah certainly always been the vision for for this Interchange to be a match the same way the internet is a mesh but like any mesh in nature there you know there will tend to be some kind of power law scaling there will be um there will be nodes within the match that are more more hub-like and and and the cosmos Hub through its um you know through its mission to be a stable sort of anchor in this thrashing sea intends to be one of those hubs not the only Hub maybe not even uh the biggest Hub in in in the long term but but uh at least you know I would hope the longest standing Hub um and and that's what's important to me is that kind of um that kind of long-termism so um if you think of the I mean of course one

of the challenges at least with this initial version of uh shared or interchange security is that you know if you're running a validator on the Hub now you're also going to have to run you know this other client right for this other chain and so sort of like you know your demands increase a bit now maybe that's like not that bad but then if you imagine you know 100 chains then like complexity grows a lot so I'm curious like what's the you know like how how much does it scale like yeah I mean there's a there's a lot of work happening to start thinking about um how to make it scale more right and so we can imagine I mean validators

today you know there are some validators that are running a dozen chains dozens of chains um there's a lot of work now going into into tenorman and the SDK to make them just more vertically scalable there's you know optimizations kind of all over the place that that we can be doing um to improve things and then there are some um you know there is some research going on directly in at The Interchange security level of how we can make that that more scalable um and and so there is a lot of opportunity there to improve the scalability but you know it's funny because the cosmos the cosmos vision and approach is always the same it's like do the simple thing that works um you know that will likely that will likely have product Market fit and unlock new opportunities and then things you you didn't really know before will

emerge to solve your scalability problems right and you know as we did that with application specific blockchains everyone's like how's this going to scale and you know no one's asking that question anymore um but now we have things like Roll-Ups and all this other you you know ZK proofs and stuff to help things scale so we're doing a sort of similar thing with interchange security it's like let's do the simplest basic thing building on top of IBC that you know allows us to extend functionality in a secure way and and we're we'll sort of you know be able to take care of scalability uh in in the longer term with all the r d that's happening within our teams around our teams and so on so yeah moving on here to another component of item 2.0 and that's liquid staking and so you know if we look at

um you know liquid staking is this mechanism by which one can uh leverage their staked assets uh in in D5 and other like Financial activities and so the idea is that you solve the stakers Dilemma by allowing staked assets to become liquid or at least some derivative of that staked asset to be liquid and liquids taking has been um you know tried and tested in ethereum with like platforms like Lido also like in Solana and and lots of other chains in Cosmos we've been talking about liquid sticking for a while and there's a number of participants like companies and startups in the space that are building liquid staking Solutions so stride is one of them peace take was early to this Market as well Quicksilver

of course um what is the what does the cosmos implementation of liquid staking have that's unique and what are the what are the characteristics of the the cosmos ecosystem as this um kind of grouping of layer ones have that that is that makes the the implementation unique compared to something like ethereum where you have one layer one and and basically everyone's staking on the same on the same chain yeah okay so um occlusion has been working um has been sort of spearheading the the liquid staking um well what we've been what occlusion

has been building is specifically A Primitive for liquid staking to make liquid staking adoption easier um and one of one so you know in in most chains that have liquid sticking liquid sneaking was sort of an afterthought in the sense of hey we uh we built the system we had staking we need to have stake in order to have to drive uh uh uh to like secure the consensus layer um maybe there's this desire for our liquid sticking on top of it um and then whatever programmability your your your your platform uh enables you can glue on some liquid staking components on top of that

um and and do it uh uh what I think of is maybe like the occlusion perspective and what I hope to become the cosmos perspective on liquid sneaking is liquid sticking is not just interesting from a individual sticker trying to optimize their returns point of view it's actually unlocks The Dilemma that like was sort of I think like one of the most queer was was very clearly articulated in the original Cosmos white paper which was hey you have this problem right is everyone everybody likes the idea of you know cryptocurrencies have been uh uh very attracted this idea of fixed Supply assets deflationary assets

um these are very powerful ideas but if you have a staking system um you will have other economic use cases for your St your stakeable asset and you will constantly have to be in equilibrium and the only way to stabilize that equilibrium is to constantly mint an exponentially increasing amount um of of those assets and if you actually get to a world of large-scale adoption of liquid staking I.E everyone nearly everyone in your staking ecosystem um is using liquid staking um you basically have created a new a new security ecosystem a new security system

um in for the chain that no longer requires exponential inflation in order to be maintained to be stabilized um and that's that's sort of that's one piece and so what occlusion has been trying to do has been trying to make adoption within the staking Mantra because basically if there is a world in which to adopt liquid staking you have to you know wait 21 days unstate give up 21 days of rewards uh just the workflow of oh I'm a user I'm going to like click a button on a website wait 21 days come back to that website in 21 days then like adopt liquid staking like the the adoption of looking staking will take forever um and what inclusion has been worth working on and is slated to be merged to

the default Cosmos SDK staking module is a set of Primitives that allow you to um have like sort of a a layer in which uh people are able to uh adopt a liquid staking solution uh instantaneously through a transaction without having to wait a non-bonding period to join the system do you want to talk about um do you want to talk about the expectation that liquid staking is actually going to be carried out by blockchains themselves rather than by centralized providers or interchange accounts and sort of how that how that connects yeah yeah that was my next question actually I think there's a there's a real user experience challenge here that we're probably going to end up facing which is that you'll have these kind of ecosystem level liquid staking

providers like the ones I mentioned earlier but then each chain may also opt to do their own uh want to capture uh those assets and do their own liquid staking then we end up in in this situation where you have all these assets that essentially represent very similar things but that aren't fungible and we already have this problem with USD stable coins maybe not so much in Cosmos but like in ethereum there's like a ton of different USD uh representative stable coins that aren't fungible and you know for users it's very hard to reason about like what are the security models behind those uh those coins so how do we solve this without creating like a huge cluster so I guess a couple of things that are I think are important one is

um I think that they're actually like I think so I think that the fact that we have many USD stable coins is a good thing it's good for decentralization it's good for the economy because basically what you want to have for like every there are multiple categories that naturally occur in um in stable coins um optimizing for uh you know different tolerance risk Tolerance on minting mechanisms uh different regulatory stances um different you know affiliations and brand affiliations associated with your stable coin like there's all there's a very large like high dimensional space of stablecoin designs and it's good to actually have Market leaders kind of optimizing for each different thing what we what I suspect is the case with

liquid sticking is it is a similar sort of thing where there are where it is actually like uh there's a lot of different dimensions to optimize for for liquid sticking solution and the whole point of the occlusion liquid staking module is to make it possible to for people to spin up projects they explore all possible sets of optimizations around creating the great liquid staking product um without specific or picking a winner just making life easier in the ux better for all of them um and like I think the optimal outcome for Cosmos is in many ways probably uh or at least for Adam is going to be like a liquid sneaking provider that like wins the market as like the

permissionless uh uh retail oriented decentralized no kycs they can provider another's thinking liquid state game provider is going to hopefully win the like institutional uh kyc that everyone involved like the entire pools kyc uh uh model like and you know there may be other variables here about how governance works or about um how like liquidity is incentivized in D5 and like whether or not your interchange secured and whether or not uh the treasury is helping secure liquidity for your asset or your independent Sovereign chain and you're using your own governance token um to incentivize liquidity there's so many

different variables here that I think it's particularly it's it's probably a good thing that we have a lot of that we have a lot of different choices yeah um just at a higher level like uh again you know we built we built IBC general purpose protocol for communicating between blockchains and obviously allows other blockchains to stake on each other right um and liquid liquid staking is kind of an inevitability I mean you can you can you know stick your head in the sand or or think you're going to play um you know whack-a-mole until the end of time to stop it but um it's uh it it's uh it's kind of inevitable and and so you need to you need to account for that and you know we're we're moving into a world where

ideally more the liquid's taking is going to move from the centralized providers to blockchains themselves that are staking the assets back over IBC onto the Hub um and and and the module that occlusions build that gets deployed on the Hub makes it easier for folks to sort of take their stake position from The Hub uh and move it onto those liquid staking providers but it does so in a way that you know they're initially non-fungible on the Hub right so it's just like a um you know a a a kind of a transferable delegation token but not really a fun tangible currency by any means that could then get moved into these liquid saving providers pooled you know have the risk managed and and so on and made um made liquid in in various different ways according to you know different criteria like Zaki was saying

and so having having blockchains themselves play a larger role in you know issuing basically um you know a medium of exchange token to circulate within the wider economy that's backed by staked atom uh is is kind of the um the the approach here and to build that representation directly into the system right where there are where there are realities that exist kind of potentially outside the system you want to represent them a little bit better in the system so that you can manage them and monitor them and and so on that's also kind of part of the cosmos philosophy is to try to better represent you know the reality of the world within the structure of of the state machines and not just like deny something you know that you might not like or you might think you know um is uh you know has risks or something

you actually try to try to bring it on board and manage it um explicitly yeah no absolutely I think I think this is going to be very mind-blowing when people see these interchange account applications that are going to come and I think it's it's going to be really amazing right and everyone at the power of things here is too is you can build your liquids taking protocol on your own chain and then connect to different Cosmos chain via engineering accounts and basically it's just likely it was taken out of the box which is very different from the way liquid's taking Solutions have worked so far where you know basically each time for each chain something is developed deployed you know it's a lot of effort in there and and so I think that kind of scaling is going to be like super powerful so but so far

yeah go ahead people just people just still probably think of IBC as like some simple token bridging thing but it's it's really not it's a general purpose communication protocol for State machines and with interchange security and interchange accounts and interchange queries and you know a lot of these things that are starting to come online and you know we'll start to have like real product usage next year I think people are really going to wake up to a new a new breed of um of interoperability that'll really you know really shake the things up and get them to kind of really understand where Cosmos is going and kind of how how far ahead we are in thinking about you know the inner chain and and interblockchain communication and so on yeah so that's yeah absolutely so we've talked about two things so far right any chain security liquid staking I think

actually both of those things are things where basically like everyone's on board you know and it's been in work for a while and there's not much like controversy or discussion about it maybe there's like I don't know some minor things you know where people but like overall like pretty much consensus and I think the the white paper basically sort of you know describes the state of where we are if that describes what's coming what's been in the works but I do other things in white people write that are I think venue uh very novel and so let's get into those I think that's also where most of the discussion has been so interchange allocator right that is something that I think before this white paper probably hardly anybody's heard of you know that wasn't maybe directly

involved in in the creation of this so what is The Interchange allocator and what's the idea behind it okay uh I'll come up with it from my point of view which is um when we started Cosmos um everybody was like there was this ongoing there you know the most common critique of Cosmos and the atom token was the technology stack Works amazing like this seems like and like you have product Market fit among Builders like lots of teams like want to build on you um why does the atom approve value and so you know even from like the very beginning when you know polka dot basically forked the white paper they were like okay we're gonna have scarcity

and parent chain options that's going to align incentives between like the security layer the beacon chain layer and the application layer um and my immediate criticism of that idea was well no one who is a really great Builder is going to pay to join your ecosystem they're going like like Sovereign chains will exist you will be able to build outside of your ecosystem like you're not going you're you're going to adversely select out the best builders for doing that and we've constantly struggled with hey like what would make what overcomes adverse like how can you align an asset with an ecosystem without uh introducing adverse selection

um and there's a there's a second problem which I would say is going on in the cosmos ecosystem which is we want to figure out a way of generating revenue for the cosmos Hub um to pay for the security budget and pay for you know the ongoing development and the ongoing r d and all of this stuff that isn't generally basically like printing new tokens like that is genuine cash flows um and so as we've seen um as sort of D5 took off over the last two years we've actually seen that both Mev and um some forms of yield like providing

liquidity especially in stable coin assets um can be it's reflexive but like do represent real cash flows um and not just you know people buying speculative assets uh in the system uh and so the question has been okay what we need to be able to do if we fit like the theory the architecture of growing the cosmos Hub economy is having the ability to strike deals with Builders with new chains with new applications to be like hey we want to support your application we want a partnership between Adam and the

application and then we want to leverage that partnership to make sure that atom holders are getting access to real cash flows that are coming out of your application whether they are transaction fees whether they are Mev whether or not there is a source of true like cash flow positive yield that is coming out of your system an example would be like the liquidity between a bunch of different variants of ICS secured State data so if we have a whole bunch of staking derivatives there are liquidity pools between them that is actually like a source of real yield and real cash flow um that can be tapped into by Cosmos Hub in the same way like if you're originating those staked assets and then

doing a transaction providing like best execution as a service uh by the scheduler is real cash flow so like the idea is is this whole thing is one system but it's basically how do we get access to real cash flow um within the cosmos ecosystem um and basically we think that like no other blockchain has ever really tried uh in a serious way probably ethereum with uh with some of their economic changes have probably been the closest to trying to tap into real cash flows as a as a way of sustaining the security of your blockchain but I think we all know that like the blockchain space cannot survive if like that is not the frontier of experimentation and so this is like been like the core motivating factor of

the allocator but the allocator is just a piece of this whole system of trying to get access to real cash flows into the security budget cost yeah so I mean to add to that I mean like you know the interchange is obviously going to be way bigger than the cosmos Hub and and already is and the Hub is um you know is uh is positioned well to lead and Steward The Interchange and to help it grow um and we've already seen you know that there's always been a question around alignment between the Hub and and and the rest of the interchange we've already seen a kind of natural approach um to incentive alignment with with the cosmos Hub with the atom holders which has been through airdrops right and and I sort of like the way Zaki uh framed it in

um in his in his talk and and some other times I heard him talk about you know the allocator and what's really happening there is like um airdrops are a kind of informal off-chain you know way to to do incentive alignment but uh we've seen a lot of them um they've obviously you know created a tremendous amount um uh amount of value and and bootstrapping within the ecosystem have been very very powerful ways to do that and the idea behind the allocator is to actually um you know formalize that better build Tools around it make it something that that can be arranged kind of more directly to create incentive alignment and more concrete sort of political economic relationships between uh between different blockchains again over IBC using all the native kind of tooling we have governance functionality IBC functionality and and other kinds of

modules um to be built to actually uh you know enable The Hub to to help grow the whole interchain and build something that's you know uh to be much larger um much larger than itself right so the The Hub has sort of being seen as something that helped initiate this thing that that is stewarding this thing and can remain somewhat incentive aligned with with something that is you know whose goal is to be much much bigger than it um and uh and and ultimately ultimately kind of successful on its own and the allocator is a way to sort of you know help can continue that that process that was sort of bootstrap with with airdrops but to become more formalized and something that can start to be you know reasoned about and more uh more sophisticated ways and could build out you know additional kinds of

of products and and infrastructure and offerings that can help change that are booting up or that are you know entering new phases in their life cycle sort of Leverage the benefits of the Hub you know to help them sort of Go off into this uh into this thrashing sea of uh of the interchange so one of the things that the paper talks about is um talks about the structure for funds to be distributed through the allocator and so I think this is the thing maybe that was the the least understood at least I went reading the white paper it wasn't clear like how this would work and I think the thinking around this has also evolved in the last couple weeks since it was announced so can you give us an example of

like what what do you use like when the allocator is deployed and you know there are funds in the treasury and those funds are meant to be effectively allocated what is this going to look like talk about you know these councils and this community council and how how is that governance process going to work and what are the assurances that Adam holders have that funds are not going to be misallocated or misspent because I think that's been one of the main um criticisms of this is the fear of misallocation of funds and things things like that I mean the goal is is to is to be

setting up much more mature governance processes right um and and that's something we have to do together that's something that's that's going to have to be architected between core developers atom holders community members um you know people who are who can oversee overseas funding there's a lot of work happening for instance um on the ICF side now to restructure things to you know we're setting up the tab the technical Advisory board we're bringing these um we're bringing folks together to try to mature the the funding process and you know we're using new language to describe the commitments we make to each other the promises how we sort of follow up on things and and so there's a lot to mature there and we want to bring a lot of that on chain as well and the reality is it's not all entirely um entirely specced out yet it's

something we have to we have to figure out together over time and and to get started you know where the the proposal is to have some you know concrete things we can do that include some limits include some checks and balances as a way um you know to start kicking things off right because we have this situation with causal side we have you know uh we have a community pool it's very small in the in the grand scheme of um community pools there it has funded a few things um that have been actually quite successful but it hasn't it hasn't funded core development it hasn't funded you know let's find a little bit of core development but not you know not really um not really much in the scheme of stuff being developed for the Hub and it hasn't really funded larger um larger uh projects it's starting to

with um prop 72 and funding some of these interchange security uh projects and that's the sort of kind of success we want we want to build on and and build structure around right and so the idea with um with um with the councils and and the sort of assembly structure and and the new issuance is to kick all that off to actually start having um you know more sophisticated on-chain governance and and so you know the new updates uh to the white paper have a little bit especially with the new Charter that's sort of being drafted um you know has sort of more detail on what those constraints will be and how governance can start to work and a in a more sophisticated way I mean yeah maybe just briefly if if I can sort of uh maybe a little bit of a simplistic

description that like I would make of this uh allocator ideas like right then the community pool we have like funded some things right there's been some funding for like different chains and different projects right but this has been like small and and and and also the decision-making process like doesn't work so well right like having this everyone vote on it is I mean can work well but doesn't scale well and the due diligence is problematic and then you know you have a proposal you can just vote Yes or No but like the negotiation doesn't really happen right so like the the way I do I feel like a simple way in my eyes to describe is okay we want to

like do this at the larger scale and then also create processes and you know decision making where um yeah where you have were you able to make those decisions in a better way at a higher scale leveraging people's expertise better yeah okay I think that's I think that's basically right yeah one way I've heard this described is as a Juno sub-dos like similar structure to Juno subdials where uh the subdials are tasked with allocating um treasury Capital to individual projects and so we could see a future where there are multiple kind of councils these are

effectively Dows these Dows have some amount of money that they can allocate on projects that is within this Dao's particular expertise right so it could be like there could be a dow that's funding um core infrastructure open source uh software a dow that's funding um like conferences and maybe there's a dow that's funding people doing marketing and producing videos and there could be another data that's funding a specific type of yeah I don't know like funding dexes or D5 protocols or um you know similarly to see the you know the the the the kind of

ecosystem of Dao's that we we've seen on ethereum but only a lot of the most of the funding would be coming from from the treasury from the allocator is that is that kind of like part you know does that sketch out a little bit of a vision for what this might look like in the future yeah yeah go ahead yeah yeah I'll say a couple of things like one is on its head like we want to move more of the bureau like the process and like essentially the bureaucracy of growing the cosmos of maintaining the cosmos of into the cosmos of itself like this is this this vision of the cosmos hub no longer serves the masters of the ICF and

aib but it serves it becomes its own master um so that's like one piece I would like to like a little bit dig a little bit more into like this idea these ideas that are in the white papers of like alligator Dows and Covenants and stuff like that um because one thing though that we want like the councils to be doing and the um is like one aspect of it is this idea of going out and like um like essentially running like a strategic initiative or like a long-term incentive aligned develop like a growth plan for some application right where you're like okay like we're gonna like this is a more complex deal like we're gonna like this much governance token is

going to be distributed to stakers this much governance token for your application is distributed to uh uh to the treasury uh we you are a scheduler and able to chain um like like organizing and managing like a much more complex deal is something that the like Covenant idea sort of floats it's like the Hub can really do Partnerships right like one of the biggest challenges has always been another challenge that Cosmos has is because we are so decentralized like how do you partner with the cosmos Hub has been like like people will come to us and be like hey maybe want to do a partnership with Cosmos and we're like hi we don't have a way of doing that like there's like there's nowhere to talk to um uh words like you could do a partnership with polygon or you can do a partnership with Avalanche

um if we have this mechanism if we have this Council mechanism there will actually be ideally councils that you go and talk to and be like hey like we actually have a procedure for doing this we can actually structure a long-term economic consequently uh economically incentivized alignment with the cosmos but the atom holders so that's one piece the other pieces is we do think that a big piece of this stuff is going to be just uh you know an allocation that probably should be small in the beginning but is just going out to teams to go out and try and you know maximize their revenue and maximize their ability to uh uh you know maximize profit in an aligned way so that there's essentially like a REV share back with the treasury

so you're like go out so like we're going to allocate funds you're gonna people who participate in those systems are going to have to essentially like Bond uh as like a surety bod their own liquid staked assets um their own liquid stake atoms um uh you can think of this as a form of like leveraged investing where like um or like where the cosmos Hub is essentially like an LP and a fund um these are all like Trad five terms but like these are this kind of model is a way of actually going out and like doing a little bit more looser a little less centrally planned um growth by just picking teams of people um and and like encouraging them to go out and find the best way of sort of of of generating value in the ecosystem

so um now maybe there are now again here I don't know if there's I guess there's been some discussions about this some concerns about this especially when it comes to you know how does this decision making work and is there accountability and control and like and I think that's of course totally understandable since it's like that hasn't been done before I I think we're the most uh most discussion has actually been uh is in I think in a few aspects are like you know related to this allocated dial thing or but they're not exactly it right so one is the question of how it is being funded and to the question of

the magnitude of the funding um so the in the individual paper uh and I think this has been modified a little bit now uh there was this idea of I think putting well I guess first of all right there's some some fundamental economic changes that are also being proposed right where the the amount of atoms that are being issued is going up uh a lot in the short term and with most of this money going into the treasury at least this was the original white paper um and and then it's going down and basically the station rewards going down uh dramatically and and then in total right I think

there was something like 56 million atoms if I remember correctly that would go into this treasury uh in the next three years uh but again I think there's been yeah maybe you guys can talk a little bit about like you know what was kind of the idea behind this uh the thinking behind it uh what is the feedback been and what are the modifications that have been made so far so at a high level the thinking behind it was um you know let's correct the position of the Hub having a pathetic-sized treasury in the form of the community pool by um you know by a large mint um into uh into the control of the atom holders that would give it a treasury

that is you know competitive with the largest treasuries in in the market so though you know put a ridiculous number in and and initiate a conversation about what people think and that's where that's where the white paper started and that was very effective for you know actually starting to happen I will also say that part of the perception was is if you mint a very conservative amount like one of the goals that they had on white paper is to move to a more credible policy around issuance and if you mint a small amount no one will perceive that mint as your issue it's as credible because they will say oh you will you were just admitting a small amount and then you will come back for more and like where does this end right um and so a big part of the of the intended messaging or which many I think

a lot of people appreciate it but it's uh the Optics of around it didn't win maybe as precisely as I was expecting um that like the idea was like a large mint over three years and it's just supposed to last you until the end of time basically um and then uh and that gets you under the the basis of a of a of a much more incredible monetary policy the revision is basically realizing where the communication around the intent of this went wrong and basically saying okay so like it turns out that like from my point of view atoms that sit in the in the custody of atom holders um uh and are the same thing as atoms that are not minted that could be minted

by atom holders but I think we've gotten from conversations with lots of people in uh various in the forums and various chats that like there's a significant set of the population of Adam olders who view these things really differently um so like atoms that don't exist don't exist and atoms that are minted that they that are held by Adam holders do exist in some sort of conceptual way and there's a big difference between these things so it's great like it doesn't matter like we could just we we introduce the trenching concept um it it like it the transition concept implements the kinds of controls that we always anticipated being in the charter we never anticipated you know a deployment of uh 50 million atoms into the uh uh uh into the economy anytime

soon um but you know like we we we learn from the uh from how people interact with the communication and I think um the charter and the um updates to the white paper now more clearly communicate the intent we'll get into the same point which is community communicating to the market that atoms are intending to move to a more credible lower rate of issuance um and that like we have we have sort of upper bounded the expected issuance in a way that the market can then uh set expectations around yeah I mean I I at least in my eyes you know kind of I mean Bucky's himself right okay the community pool has been kind of like you know very small and and I think that was one of the maybe

mistakes in my eyes that was made when the I I think in general like the Adam economics in my view when Cosmos was launched was really good and has worked very well I I know but I do feel there was one thing that should have been done differently which is I think the community food should have been larger um and and I think if there had been a much larger community pool then I think they could they would probably also happen earlier right that there's some organizations if like oh how do we use this now effectively so I also feel like here okay like the obvious thing would just be like okay it makes sense that more money is deployed and there's like ideas for how to do it and instruction

to be built so why not just I don't know like you know I was riding Street writing up why not just put the community pool at the moment two percent of information is going there put that to 20 uh which I think would be much easier to for everyone to understand to accept it's like okay it's also easier for like let's say because okay now my second reward is going down by 20 but it's going there which kind of makes sense like so yeah I'm curious like why not this path and you know maybe talk about a little bit about like the the logic behind this monetary changes that you know going Beyond just

funding they're they're allocated right because that's one thing but yeah that's that's not the only thing that's happening here yeah I mean you know what what we're what we're not trying to do is make a few little tweaks um to the cosmos Hub to just like move forward a little bit right and and sure there's lots of little tweaks you could do you could you could tweak the community pool you could you know make some small proposals for for this or that what we wanted to do was come out with a material upgrade to the hubs uh political economy to set it up for this new this new phase of the cosmos project the integration phase right where the Hub is going to be you know a steward and a leader within this wider interchange and it's going to support the growth of that inner chain and and

it's going to work towards being able to you know actually make a a meaningful intervention into the um into the global monetary system in the long term I mean that's that that's kind of the goal this all is more sustainable monetary and and financial system right um and so sure we could we could tweak uh we could tweak some small things but we wanted to have a more material upgrade of the government and structure of the sophistication of decision making and you know that was the idea behind behind putting forward the treasury and so you know if you just minted stuff into the community pool and kind of didn't do anything else then you're still sort of leaving it up to okay well someone has to come along and build organizational structure and figure out all these things and so we wanted to kind of put

those more together and say look uh okay maybe minting you know 50 million atoms into into one undefined spot over the course of um three years is excessive fine you know that's great let's keep talking about about what to do um I think there there's General alignment that there needs to be more sophisticated on-chain governance and that's um that's really what the treasury proposal is all about and then it's more a question of actually How We Kick this thing off right and so and so the new proposal is that okay rather than just some consistent issuance into the treasury you know over three years it'll be broken up into tranches it's up to atom holders um to vote to have those tranches actually enter uh the treasury pool maybe one idea which would be um which would sort of be you know a compromise between all these things that would

actually maybe help kick things off a little better is to have the first tranche go into the community pool right and that might be able to allow things to get started more quickly right the first tranche you know ends up in the community pool now we have a community pool of say you know four or five million atoms uh but but future tranches are minted into the treasury and the idea is that gives the community pool the initial um kind of Runway to get make sure the treasury is set up in a way that it's comfortable minting into the treasury right because the whole point of the treasure is that we set up more sophistic sophisticated governance structure to actually oversee um to oversee funding and and and so on right so you know something like that I think I think would make a lot of sense

but just tweaking the the community pool tax um I don't I don't think is is sufficient because it doesn't say enough about the actual you know larger scale uh governance changes we need to actually set up more sophisticated decision making and coordination and uh totally I mean I I do recognize that I think those governance changes are needed right I I think my the way I I could have or would imagine that was more like okay you know the community pool is increased and then there's a proposal right to the community pool saying like hey now I don't know there's five million items in this community pool now let's move like I don't know two and a half million items to this you know governance structure control that can then maybe align with

like exactly what's described yeah I mean yeah oh I guess we would also give a sense of like Adam holder still feel like in control right because they'll have to vote on like the money being moved from the community pool there and it goes through this familiar process that that people know yeah so I think I think what I would be proposing is that the structure is that the initial tranche goes into the community pool and we can do that you know as soon as we can get an upgrade to have the community pool mint um but the the commitment is that future tranches are going to go into the treasury but it's the it's the atom holders that vote they actually have to pass a vote for those tranches to get unlocked right so the first challenge goes into the community pool uh the

community pool existing governance you know has to deploy it to get the treasury built and they have to deploy it to get the treasury built in a way that they will be comfortable with future tranches being minted directly into the treasury and then of course there will be you know and ask for the charter there are ways for atom holders to get funds to flow back from the treasury into the community pool into the distribution module and so on but that way we sort of you know set things up with the expectations of like okay we start out of the community pool community pool funds the creation of um of of the the Treasury System and then future tranches go into the treasury but require you know an atom holder vote to actually um to actually create them in that way you know beyond the first tranche

there's nothing else created but there is you know the the sort of commitment that that future things can be created by the atom holders in this in the somewhat predictable kind of set way um I think that would be a really nice uh kind of balancing of all the interests and would give the atom holders control complete control over the initiation of this thing uh but would but would be a credible commitment to moving towards a new system you know that they actually have to take responsibility for uh funding the development of you know up front and that way we kind of balance all the the interest I think quite nicely okay but that like this sounds reasonable what this doesn't answer though is the this uh this idea of like you know decreasing the issuance uh in in this way that's

proposing the white paper right where it's basically goes up and then goes down a lot um over three years and then and then basically it goes to a to a sort of like minimal issuance okay so this is a separate question right is the the question of issuance to stakers right um and and you know right now you know the the reason the issuance is the way it is is with this exponential thing is is to balance this tension between security and liquidity in the in the token right so you need some amount staked and so to ensure that there's some um you know some high amount staked we have this exponential issuance model that that adjusts to sort of you know ensure that um that staking stays around um around two-thirds but with liquid

staking and um you know the those Dynamics start to change and what we don't want is just exponential issuance um forever because that's you know it's unstable for various reasons um and and so there's ideally ideally the you know the compensation for security is actually coming out of um the compensation for the security provided by stake atoms is coming out of the things that are being secured it's not just coming out of um you know unsustainable it uh sort of infinite exponential issuance right and so the the idea is that the drop-off in issuance is more than compensated for by uh you know proceeds from interchange security and the scheduler and the allocator and all these sort of things

what is perhaps missing is a way to more directly tie those things together right so you know maybe in in some Ideal World it's like well the issuance drops off in a way that is directly compensated by uh you know new flows from interchange security and and and so on and if it's you know if it's not well then there's a risk because if you know stakers make a commitment today to say okay lower issuance great you know take the money out of our pocket um but we don't you know interchange security is not live yet we don't know how you know so so that's the kind of thing we have to we have to navigate now and the you know actually building out a system where the issuance drop off is you know command who the new value flows kind of directly and mechanistically is is is quite

complicated and you know so we didn't um we didn't propose doing that but there's still quite a few levers that Adam stakers can um uh can control on how this is going to happen on when the issuance drop off will start on on their ability to actually um you know take funds out of the treasury and redirect them back to the distribution module to compensate uh there's also the matter of if um if uh if there's not enough issuance and people unstake then once staking drops below the two-thirds Target then then the exponential issuance kicks in again right so that there's a few different ways there are a few different levers to kind of navigate this thing and I don't think we have um you know the full picture or the exact uh mechanics here but there's a number of things that can make this work

to allow the whole system to move towards a world where the compensation for security is actually coming from the systems being secured rather than just from exponential issuance and that's sort of the overall goal we're working towards I think is you know um sound and necessary and the question are you know the details on how we get there I also think that like there's a there's a collective focus of the mind that is required to get um to among many different stakeholders in the cosmos ecosystem and in the cosmos of itself if we really want to get to a world where we are securing the system via cash flows um like

I think the like the cash flow the cash flows appear to be out there um like they're they're there seems to be enough desire to build stuff on top of the cosmos Hub on top of interchange security that like we could plausibly get the cash flows um like Mev is plausibly large enough um you know as an across the blockchain space um like there are enough new assets coming in there are enough things that could that could potentially generate the amount of liquidity so if we believe if we attempt to go for an exponential growth of the cosmos ecosystem which you know a lot of

um sort of you know investors in the blockchain space are thinking is a very large possibility and like hundreds of millions of dollars of capital have been committed to uh uh this as a thesis if we believe in that as the cosmos Hub and we sort of uh uh Focus the minds of Cosmos Hub stakeholders on saying hey like this is a really important opportunity to make sure that we capture those cash flows into the cosmos Hub we end up we could end up in a really strong position around Adam as an asset that then like is the driving force for this change in the political economy rather than just another altcoin

yeah one of the things that struck me here um is you know there's a question that no one's asking here and I mean like these are these are great ideas and I think there are it's great that we're debating them and it's great that there's a conversation happening in the ecosystem um but you know the the questions no one no question no one is asking is what if atom holders are not up to the task what what if this doesn't work like what if we decide that hey like we need to relinquish control of that like the ICF and sort of these organizations need to relinquish control the Hub to the atom holders but in fact in fact the atom Boulders are just not up to that task and failed miserably at

doing this thing right that we're that we're talking about here um have you guys given any thought to that at all I I think a lot about that um and I have a very straightforward opinion on it which is um we always built Cosmos as a way that could succeed in like the cosmos ideas could succeed without atoms right and that is a little bit of that is a big part of the core goal and the vision is like we should take we should take bigger risks with Adam because Cosmos as the bigger idea the inner chain as the bigger ecosystem um is not somehow solely dependent on the success of Adam and so therefore

Adam should should take higher should take a whole bunch of risk try to become something truly amazing potentially fail knowing that the uh core ecosystem that we've constructed the you know evos osmosis uh uh Juno uh uh agoric and like Beyond you know penumbra and Noma and Beyond are all independent locuses of power and energy um and are all going to be running parallel experiments and so if the atom experiment does not does not succeed um all of these other experiments might plausible yeah so I um I certainly uh this is

certainly Adam's curse right uh blessing and curse is that um it created this thing that it's that uh that doesn't actually need it to potentially succeed now I believe that that that Cosmos the inner chain um you know will be have much more uh probability of success with a strong um a strong chain committed to upholding the values of The Wider interchange the way the way the cosmos sub is that that position to be you know a sort of long-term chain that that's stable and and and simple and follows the kinds of principles that we're laying out for its development using interchange security to extend functionality um and so on so the idea isn't to go and take you know some some crazy uh some crazy risk with with the Hub or or or

with the atom but that's not to say that the system can't evolve and that it can't evolve in both ways right and that's what we're proposing is a bold way for the for the system to evolve not of course to set it up for failure but if anything to set it up for um for success in this new role in sort of meeting and studenting the energy and you know like any Endeavor of course um of course it might not succeed or might not succeed you know the way the way we expect when it comes down to you know this problem of are the atom holders up to it right and and people talk about it you know decentralized governance and and all this kind of stuff um this is something we think about a lot and and you know from my experience the thing that matters uh very

significantly is building sound organizational structure right um and you know people like to throw Dows out and say oh we'll just have decentralized governance and you know and everything will work and you know pay a bunch of lip service to decentralization and you know that's not that's not a real thing that's not how we're gonna actually uh you know materially move move the bar on uh on decentralized governance um and what's interesting about the position the cosmos Hub is in you know kind of uniquely in the world certainly the world of in the world of blockchains is the level of decentralization around the core uh the core Development Group and the requirement that they actually figure out how to how to coordinate and work together to build this thing and build the organizational structure and the institutional structures to do it all and so it's not just like well throw

it all up to the atom holders and and you know let them figure it all out without any kind of support or institution building the entire exercise here is to actually construct political Economic Institutions that can carry this thing forward and and it seems like we're doing it in a sort of deliberate um and and you know constructive and thoughtful way uh almost unlike anything else anything else we're seeing out there right we're really trying to drill in on the structure of these things on how you set up uh good governance on the language you need to use to facilitate that you know I like to promote this what we call the workflow language Zachy thinks it's a cult um it might be but you know every successful thing is a cult so at some point in its in its life but but the point is to actually be very deliberate

and not just not just throw things up to decentralized governance but actually to construct you know organizational structure and and institutions that can support this thing for the long term that's something you know we focused on quite a bit not informal and something where you know we're we're building out in the wider ecosystem to get all these organizations to work together because it's not just about some ephemeral cloud of atom holders it's also about the individual people that they are that are working together to do concrete things and the conversations they have and you know the commitments they make to each other and so actually you know deliberately trying to Super surface all that and and talk about it and cut through the awkwardness of you know making promises and and commitments to deliver and following up on on all these workflows um is super important and it's how we're

focused on making this whole thing a success in a way that's you know quite different from from basically every other um every other ecosystem and and chain out there cool um well let's let's let's end here maybe on the well we still have some time to go I think but let's move on to the interchange scheduler which is the uh the other part here and um you know just to give a high level of The Interchange schedule as I understand it so the interesting scheduler is a mechanism by which actors in the ecosystem are going to be able to bid on block space so validators will be able to auction off their block space to Market participants uh so it's effectively a block block space Futures

Market or a mechanisms future block space Market not a blockchain space Futures market and um and so this this would effectively allow Market participants to buy up that block space probably uh do some uh some sort of block ordering or like uh block construction block building work um and uh and and reap the rewards of that of that Mev work so can can you explain here what's the what is the motivation behind the scheduler and why does it need to be something that the cosmos Hub delivers as a as functionality and the reason why

I asked that is I've talked to some folks who either directly or indirectly told me that you know interchange security uh enabled chains are unsure whether or not they're going to use this thing um so there's a question around like what are the incentives for chains connected to chain security to actually use the scheduler and not use like their own sort of internal mechanisms um so yeah what's the motivation here and how do you think this is going to play out in the interchange security model foreign so the broader motivation again following in the the same principles we've always kind of followed is to recognize the sort of economic realities uh economic external realities and and

to and to bring them uh bring representations on chain right and and so we do that um with with on-chain voting we do it with the know with veto we're doing it with liquid staking and the idea behind the scheduler is to do it with Mev right is to to recognize that the Mev is a real thing out there and and um it needs to be accounted for uh within within protocol and just sort of kick off the process of of what that looks like and a little bit more more broadly as we're talking about as we're talking about the inner chain and you know interchange multi-chain block space um there's a question on how we can provide stronger guarantees about about the ordering and about transaction inclusion in this in this interchange reality and and the scheduler is is a way to um is to start going about that right to

say okay what kinds of of cross-chain multi-chain interchange guarantees can we start to provide and how can the Hub um provide those as a you know again as a coordination point in a way that um you know allows any potential extracted value to accrue back um and to be reinvested sort of within the ecosystem and not not just to leak out into external actors in in some of the ways we've seen so that's at sort of the high level it's a way to provide you know stronger guarantees over cross-chain multi-chain interchain uh execution again starting with it with interchange security is sort of an offering to Interchange secure chains but also um potentially uh extending Beyond it one of the other things that I think has been is a motivation for the schedule so

one is I think there's a couple of things that are important one is we've seen that as so like default the maturity of a defy ecosystem in a in a given space um creates this like you know attracts these Mev actors um which we've already seen starting to emerge and cause us with both macatek and Skip um we've seen the issues that could result where like block production very rapidly centralizes order flow like uh uh uh in in like consolidates very quickly um the cosmos view has always been you know first and foremost that there is uh an enormous role for application

specific blockchains in terms of managing their own MEP that's a huge motivation for building an applications but we also expect to see value flows that cross multiple chains um routinely like you can just think of it like you know you uh exit from a centralized exchange onto atom or into usdc um you go buy something on osmosis you go stick it that what you have this value flow um being able to provide um stronger and more predictable execution across these things it's going to be uh important and valuable for the um for the emergence of the D5 ecosystem and Cosmos and the supply chain that's

that provides this is actually is probably going to extend both uh between chains themselves and centralized actors like uh you know like the like you know centralized Med options um but you know trying to start to again make it so that the cosmos Hub plays a role here um is a very important kind of um first mover advantage or advantage and it potentially the cosmos Hub can offer a product um that doesn't that like essentially is really hard for any of the other application specific change stuff which is the ability to bid on block space that is not just on one chain but across many chains so you might say hey

I want to own the the top of the block uh and the ability to execute the top of the block um transaction not just oh on on Neutron or not just on the usdc Chain but I would like to be able to like be able to like have chains that are part of an entire economic value is low so that if someone comes with a with wanting to execute that value for I can provide them really strong guarantees um in doing that and being able to have essentially the option of providing that is a really valuable service that can be then purchased uh uh and that value can flow back to the treasury cool I I think there's uh I'm sure there's like a lot I mean this is a very

you know new idea it's sort of like superficial it's it's not discussing great detail in the white paper right so I I the white paper is not a technical specification this is like the most important thing right is it is it is a description of a directional vision and like we have lots of like everyone in Cosmos likes to produce technical specifications like that was the hardest part of fighting over trying to get the white paper out like a like how do we avoid the white paper not being 200 pages long um second like you know like there is a team in an informal that like is like already like started working on a technical vacation and I'm and like they want to release something relatively soon about some of their uh initial work on a technical specification like we

have no lack of people in the cosmos ecosystem um that want to write detailed technical specifications of every single thing in the white paper but what we want the community to see is more of the big picture um and the vision of where we're going and how all these pieces fit together which is what the white paper has tried to start a conversation about so let's talk about governance in the governance process here right because this is actually one of the things that I well so right now right there's basically there's white papers out there's been um also some revisions of the white paper now and a lot of discussion of the white paper and the intention was at least as

far as I understood it that you know this would be put up for you know a governance vote and then basically people are voting kind of like on this white paper so this is like an idea person that I you know I really disliked and still I think dislike because in the end there is this big paper with like a lot of different things and and a lot of you know there's like from Big Ideas to you know specific economic changes with specific amounts it's like like lots and lots of different stuff where also people have like a lot of different opinions on it you know some people like something some people want something in all the way so now it's still the idea that like you know basically Adam holders wrote on sort of

this entire thing or how how do you guys think about sort of you know the governance process of now um that will follow this this the discussion of this white paper yeah so I think about the white paper less as a a commitment and more as an offer right we were in the early stages of kicking off a whole new direction for for the cosmos Hub and you know a group of of developers and community members have sort of gotten together and articulated what they believe is a coordinated integrated vision for that for that future in outline right and it's it's quite a high level um there are some some specifics um but the the idea is to is to get uh

you know a a sort of alignment on the on that as a direction and to you know to Anchor some expectations maybe around some of the specifics right and so you know we certainly could break it up into you know six different pieces and vote on them all all independently um but that would you know that's like deconstructing the rainbow here and what we're not doing is you know trying to pass a massive upgrade today we're trying to articulate a sort of coherent direction for the future and all the individual proposals are still to come because there there's lots of like he was saying there's lots of specification to work out lots of details to still be worked out but the reason to vote on the paper as a whole is because it is you know an integrated articulated uh you

know Direction and vision um it's not just a collection of little things we stuck together right okay but I guess this sort of like ties into I think things kind of two two points out why I like have an issue with this first of all is exactly this anchoring point right because okay it's like maybe this big Vision but it also has like you know very concrete things in there and if now you're saying like Okay you're voting on this big mission but by doing that you're also like now basically voting on like for example like the specific economic parameters in there right and in the end I think uh it will be okay sure there will be like another vote down the line right where

you then vote on some sort of implementation stuff but if this has been voted on on this white paper level then people were basically going to go and Implement something along those lines and they'll come with something it's like oh here's been built in it look you've voted it on this white paper with this thing and so like here it is now and I will prove this right and you're in like a really hard position at that point because I you have to say like no which is going to be a disaster right because everyone's gonna have done all this work I'm pissed off and like or it's like oh yeah but you voted on it before right so I I think that's like I find that is like very problematic right where you're basically mixing up this okay high level white paper with you now

kind of like also voting on you know specific things and then and then I think the other thing where I like a little bit disagree is okay this is a high level integrated Vision I I feel to me like most of those things in this white paper seem kind of orthogonal right there are some things that are connected in particular the allocated dial clearly needs an economic change right because otherwise there's no money to do it right so like there's definitely like you can't like vote for it okay we want to allocated our belief the economics as is but you know other things like Insurance security liquid staking uh this scheduler I mean you could have you know the other things

without or this so I I don't it doesn't make sense to me so much to say like oh it's this whole coherent Vision as much as it's a bunch of ideas for how the further developed the cosmos Hub and like where it can go it is a coherent vision and and if you don't see that I encourage you to think harder about it because like like I laid out at the beginning there's three pieces right there's secure economic scaling layer which is generally uncomfortable I will just point out that like our my thinking and my sincere belief is that if you try to pull apart the pieces of this thing and deploy them independently you do not get about a useful chain like we don't get a we don't get a husband an

atom that is valuable we don't get a we do not get the the new political economy for the cosmos of you just get like oh you've added another feature which will just be copied by every other chain in the cosmos ecosystem um and it just like it looks like exactly what we've been doing for the last three years yeah yeah let me just articulate what that what that coherent holds before because there's three pieces the first piece is that secure economic scaling layer with interchange security and liquid staking which is you know we believe generally uncontroversial it's been in development for a long time that's happening right the next piece is actually the the economic flywheel built on top of those two thick right we have those two things the Hub is proposing or the paper is proposing okay here's a here's a um here's a flywheel we can build on top of

those two things to really get the ball rolling on the growth of the inner chain alignment with the cosmos Hub enabling the cosmos Hub to kind of Steward us into this new age of you know more formal um relations between blockchains and and ways to kind of bring online all these you know Mev and all these sort of you know requirement for stronger cross-chain guarantees in an integrated way that allows the Hub to have sort of oversight you know on on how the interchange is um is kind of being stewarded especially around it and then in order to do all that it requires changes to governance and and a treasury to actually um to blame so that's that's the integrated hole that's the framing and trying to zoom in and pull out different pieces sure you could do that but that doesn't give you um the whole

picture and in any case we we will have to do a lot of specific work and have more specific governance votes down the road for those different pieces for sure but the goal of this was to articulate a coherent whole um and and to not vote on a coherent whole uh it seems like a missed opportunity because the other thing the other thing that the white paper is pushing forward and thinking about it as a whole is actually getting a charter together right and this is something that I think atom holders have wanted for a long time is some kind of Charter and imagine pushing at a charter and looking at it and say oh all of these articles are independent of each other let's vote on every article you know kind of independently you know that uh you could always sort of make this

argument about how to break things down um but you know what we want to do is sort of set up the hub for a new sort of vision and and Direction with an explicit understanding that like this is an outline there are some specifics in there you know we should anchor around some of those specifics but uh a lot of details are still to be um are still to be figured out through negotiation and if you look at the original Cosmos of white paper you know there's a lot of things in there that never got implemented or or some things that got uh implemented kind of differently or or whatever uh you know the Crux of the whole outline was delivered but you know there's some specific transaction types or some specification that was modified or you know it was a schedule for how validator set sizes we're going to

increase that you know that was a very specific thing that happened very differently right the validator so this is a very concrete example right in the initial white paper it's the validator set was going to increase according to a specific schedule over 10 years right we just did not do that we did something completely different atom holders just vote to increase the validator size set size you know whenever they want um and so just because you anchor to a specific thing in the white paper doesn't mean you know you have to do exactly what that says in the future there's still lots of you know it's just a piece of text there's no funding associated with it yet so you know if if everyone if someone just goes in you know into a room and builds everything in the white paper independently uh you know without any other communication or

you know relationship to funding well that's a problem right and so um the point is to start the conversation to align on a direction and a vision and then to start working together to start you know um figuring out in more detail how it's all going to work how it's going to funded which pieces in in what order and and so on yeah when I when I first started thinking about this I mean so at the end of the day you know the the cosmos white paper or the sorry the atom 2.0 white paper is a uh is it sort of signaling proposal and like the proposal that'll go on chain is is a way for the community to align on on a fission but not a technical implicate implementation and in similar you know

similarly I think the charter which I've briefly read through it you know seems like a constitutional type document where we sort of relying on values and rules and um and it is also a a signaling proposal in the sense that there's no on-chain enforcement of any of the stuff here um so I think it's helpful to maybe remind people about that um right like the people who contributed to this white paper have been willing to do a lot of organizational work like they've been willing to like you know like a lot of comms work a lot of organizational work we've they've been

willing to like answer questions in the Forum answer questions of the like and if you and like we are everyone who contributed to the paper is very aligned that this is one cohesive Vision if you have a if you the like and like you either Adam holders could either endorse that Vision or people can come up with an alternate Vision or people can propose in uh amendments to that Vision that they can get the atom holders to approve but the idea that like the value of that comms work the value of like all of the work that we've put into like putting together like an integrated I mean and explaining it to people should somehow not get a vote is it like crazy um

yeah you know what what was it what I was going to say earlier is what came to mind and of course it doesn't overlap perfectly well here because we were talking about different sorts of um issues that need to be worked out but like look looking at ethereum and how ethereum went from you know its original Vision to now you know having been through the merge and everything that that entire process took say five years there were a lot of things that we were pretty certain about in 2016-2017 with regards to how ethereum was going to scale that got turned completely on their heads and like yeah before we were you know we were thinking about like sharding and it turned turns out that

that wasn't going to work and so ethereum went a different direction and so what the only thing I think that where I feel a little bit and I think a lot of people have been talking with um have reservations here is like the the level of certainty that this is the framework you know that like this framework is here like we're going to talk about it for I don't know maybe two months and we're gonna vote on it and like we're all certain that this is good this is a direction in which we need to go and um feel with something like Cosmos and the Hub and it being so important in my view to you know the success of the interchange um we we need to be incredibly careful about not getting it wrong

um yeah yeah this is part of the this is part of this debate you know but yeah I think I think for a lot of people this level of certainty is a little bit unsettling yeah but it doesn't represent a level of certainty it's an it's an offer to explore right and and the vote is to say let's explore this let's actually explore this offer together right and it could be that we discover in six months down the line that everything in the white paper was wrong I mean we don't think that's likely because you know a lot of thought and time has sort of gone into thinking of thinking about this but we are going to discover a lot over the next month's years about a better about putting this thing together but what we're trying to do is get sort of alignment on

um you know the need to sort of work towards something like this to investigate this more more fully um you know to to to have that that we have this economic base layer that we're going to build things on top of it you know initial proposal scheduler allocator there are other things there are other ways you know to get get the sort of flywheel going support the rest of the inner chain that that can and should be explored um and this is and these things are all being going to be built on consumer chains and are going to need to be funded and there will be future governance proposals to do that right and so there's still a lot a lot of room um and opportunity for atom holders to uh to to influence the direction to change the direction to you know divide for other things having higher priority

as as the sort of Market evolves or people people think about things the goal is just to sort of get alignment that like hey you know we're entering a new phase we need to go in a New Direction this this new secure layer is coming we're going to have to build things on top we're going to need new governance and new treasury you know to enable all of that let's start talking more concretely about that works together about what that works looks like you know starting from starting from this framing even if that's going to evolve in ways we can't even predict right and so you know this is why I think this is why I love the workflow language so much because it allows you to understand which stage of a commitment or of a promise you're in and we're in the early stages and even if we

vote on this thing it's just a block of tax that still needs to be discussed negotiations still needs to happen afterwards there you know the promise is to actually uh build things for certain amounts of of you know compensation that's all in the future we're not there yet we're not voting on you know amounts to start funding particular development streams that's all to come right uh and and so the white papers and voting on the white paper is a way to sort of say okay you know now now let's start negotiating right after we're sort of aligned that like we we want to explore this direction right so in workflow you sort of think about the first stage is like listening Discovery that's what we're going through now and after the wallpaper is voted on them maybe we can we can enter into a more sort of

negotiation stage on um you know what's actually going to be delivered for how much what kind of commitments are being made you know and then move into the sort of execution and assessment and sort of get the workflow Loop flowing yeah I feel like that so so this idea that this is a document on which that was meant to spark a conversation you know in the in the conversations I've had so far either you know privately or on on different podcasts I I feel like the you know whether it's informal or the ICF or sort of people working between these organizations or closely together I I feel that that wasn't communicated um

well enough I you know I keep saying like I think Zachy your your talk at at Cosmo versus could have had like draft you know written as a kind of like across across all of it and the papers should have as well and like I I think that a lot of a lot of folks saw this were like oh okay like this is this is kind of this Vision that's being dumped upon us uh and then there was there was uh maybe not like a backtrack but then it became more clear through these conversations that okay this is actually a negotiation this is actually something that's meant to spark conversation but I feel like that wasn't clear enough from the beginning what else could it have been we don't

have the power to change the cosmos oh I don't have this I don't have the pseudo keys to change the gospel sub what else possibly yeah well I think the time does make a difference yeah I think the power dynamics that exist in Cosmos and you know we were talking earlier in in the in this podcast about you know the the the the tenement diaspora I think that there's there's perceived power there that people in the community um yeah there's this perception of power uh that the community has with regards to the diaspora that um needs to be like where from that

position of perceived power you know Communications need to be done in a way that is maybe a little bit more um transparent and like deliberate and so even though of course like you don't have the power to change the cosmos Hub or anybody else does I think there's a being in this position of of perceived power means that the communications around intentions need to be a lot more clear at least that's my perspective like that's how I that's how I felt talking with people about him are uh I mean there is there is there is I think honestly there is so there is discussion there is Direction all of these things but there is also a Clarity of purpose that we either want

accepted or rejected in a concrete way like I would like a yes or no answer as to hey like if what the atom holders want is to be the like airdrop exponentially inflating token for the rest of time I'd rather know that and stop putting any effort into trying to fix the gospels up in my perception right like I put a lot of time and energy and Ethan put a lot of time and energy into this and all the other authors have put a lot of time and energy and inclusion has put a lot of time and energy and we could all be working on other things and so if the point of view of atom holders is like we want the status

quo then cool uh we can could you can continue to have this status quo you could have the status quo plus entertain security and a few other features but it like if you want to clearly tell this group of people that we should put our energy somewhere else tell us that like yeah but that's I mean that's that's a little bit was like challenging I think about this governance process because like it doesn't really give that kind of option right because in the end let's say if it's like accept it then it will be seen as like you know okay people are on board with this Vision right now let's say it gets rejected like what does that mean like well I mean it's not it means we have to keep

talking right this is all about the conversations we're having and you know and and so like just there's no be-all end-all of a single vote it could get rejected and yeah it will go from there like what does it mean I don't know we have to talk to each other to find out what it means right it's just it's just a block of text with a you know there's going to be a binary result on the block of text like that's not enough for us to do anything right it's all it's all about the conversations we're having and and you know the conversations we're able to have by virtue of you know the progress we make um with signals and and and so on so the important thing to keep in mind is that we have more conversation and I think the point about you know better

communication about intentions and all that stuff um was well put and and it's something we talk about a lot how we can you know improve Communications and it's it's complicated we're coordinating you know you look at that list of authors it's like a ton of organizations on there right so coordinating all this stuff and timelines and project management in a very complex multi-stakeholder environment there's a lot of room to improve and and you know a big part of what we're proposing about the integration phase and about you know the the this white paper is that we work together on on improving these things and you know maybe to some extent there's a little bit of Cunningham's law operating that's like well let's just post the wrong thing on the internet and you know and get everyone enraged about it so that we'll find out what they want

really quickly um not that this paper you know was completely wrong or anything like that but it was there's a little bit of like well let's put something like really bold out um and just to get people like you know um really engaged and and that and that's happened I think that's that's been um effective and and surely the you know there's lots of different ways that that communication can be improved and and we're aware of that and we're we're working towards that and you know these discussions are part of that and all the discussions on on the forums and so on so um it's really it's really an exciting time and I think you know really grateful for you guys bringing us on to uh to discuss it yeah yeah no I think the discussion has definitely been great and very vigorous and lots of places so I think that has

definitely works super well maybe uh so what's the what's the timeline now like what happens next and especially I guess for people who are who care and about the cosmos Hub and are involved like uh yeah what's gonna happen the most important thing now is um the the changes to the white paper that were just posted and the charter and so if you care about any of this stuff uh get looking at those you know um the goal I think currently is for the white paper uh to be to be put on chain uh on Halloween nice uh nice symbolic uh nice symbolic time to vote um you know trick or treat and uh and then the charger sometime afterwards right and so

the idea is that the white paper uh you know will be constrained by the charter um and and the charger is something that will take a little bit more time to flesh out but there's a nice draft there that that we've been working on it's got a lot of good stuff in it and so we encourage you know everyone who cares to start um engaging on on giving feedback on that and and and working on it and um yeah keep uh keep going on the governance forums and um on on these documents so yeah yeah the governance forums is the place to be talking about this uh I'm echoing Sam Hart uh who was on the podcast uh on the interop last week and we're like we need to move all the conversations to the governance forms because the conversation's in telegram or at least

or at least you know at some point we need to like kind of uh aggregate a lot of the points that are made on Telegram and all these other places and kind of move them to the to the to the Forum so they can be properly archived and so for pretty much everything there's definitely there's definitely room for different communication channels but it's important you know I mean people want to be able to discuss synchronously and you know try out random ideas on telegram stuff and Twitter and that's great but we should you know consolidate and have thoughtful you know asynchronous discussion on on the forums is really um I think really important um to build out you know understanding and context and and so on so looking forward yeah great guys thanks so much uh this has been uh excellent and definitely I appreciate you taking part

in this broader conversation as there will continue to be many I'm sure absolutely thanks again for your time thanks you guys and that you know thanks for pushing back and and Brian you know for writing up uh writing up your thoughts and and you know um getting this going it's uh it's a lot of fun yeah so late thanks so much for coming on guys you got it and thanks for thanks for the work you guys are doing and everyone else who's like uh who's trying to move the cosmet up forward I think that's that's uh really amazing to have all this energy in movement yeah it's really incredible to see yeah go to the Moon take care guys