Episode 218: Hardened JS and the Architecture of Agoric with Dean Tribble

Transcript

[Music] welcome to xero knowledge i'm your host anna rose in this podcast we will be exploring the latest in zero knowledge research and the decentralized web as well as new paradigms that promise to change the way we interact and transact online this week i chat with dean tribble co-founder and ceo of agoric agork is a javascript native smart contract platform built with the cosmos sdk we chat about the development of different programming languages as well as why allowing developers to code blockchain

smart contracts in a language that they are familiar with that is hardened js might actually bring a bigger wave of people to the space we learn about the history of agorik and more but before we start in if you are looking to jump into zk professionally i want to remind you to head over to the zk jobs board there you can find job posts from the top teams working in zk find your next project or team over on the zk jobs board i've added the link in the show notes so check it out i also want to make sure that the zk hack mini is on your radar last fall we did a seven week event with puzzle hacking and zk tool workshops now we bring it back for a mini version of the event it's set to last two weeks and starts on march 1st our building partner

is polygon who is also the sponsor of this episode be sure to sign up today for the newsletter as well as the first ckhack event that is on march 1st there you'll get updates on our schedule and additional partners as they come so hope to see you there now i'll let tonya the podcast producer share a little bit more about this week's sponsor today's episode is sponsored by polygon polygon is one of the top ethereum scaling platforms for developers with over 130 million unique user wallets they're known for polygon pos chain one of the most popular chains built on top of ethereum sometimes clocking even more daily active users than ethereum itself and the team is actually working on a spectrum of solutions including evm compatible zero-knowledge roll-up solutions like polygon hermes polygon maiden and polygon nightfall which is

built in association with ernst young they also recently announced their acquisition of mir protocol now known as polygon zero these solutions inherit the security of ethereum and use the power of zero knowledge over here at the podcast we've been tracking polygon's journey and have recently had bob and threadbear from maidan and jordy and david from hermes on the show to talk about their respective projects we recommend you check out those episodes to learn more about their vision project roadmap and progress so far polygon is also hiring and they have a few jobs listed on the zkjobsboard you can check out that link in the show notes so thank you again polygon now here's anna's interview with agorik [Music] so today i want to welcome dean tribble to the show dean is the co-founder and ceo of agorik so welcome dean thank you

for having me good to talk to you again anna dean this is not the first time you're on the show i did an episode quite a while ago it was a combo episode where i i think i interviewed this is like what i just started doing the podcast did not realize what i was getting myself into i think i interviewed like 12 people and shoved them all onto one episode um and i had yourself and mark on that episode my co-founder mark miller yes and we got a chat i mean at this point at that time it was z-con zero in montreal it was the first z cash conference what were you doing around that time was already a thing had the had the initial team formed yes the gorick was already a thing

zcash was the initial uh investor in agorak oh yeah and i think we had gotten the investment at that point i guess i'd have to remember the time yeah we'd gotten the investment at that point um so zcash naval and poly chain had invested and we brought the whole team all you know five or six of us out to z con zero to explain to the z cash world why z cash was was was investing in us and and what was this agoric team doing anyway so tell me but like what what has your journey been since then so you yeah like what actually what were you originally like what was that original project company

so the vision hasn't changed significantly specifics of the execution have changed and we've then got to go to market that leverages it in in an interesting way but the vision has always been smart contracts written in hardened javascript right something that that means millions of developers can understand them millions of developers can build them and that's what it takes to open up the world of blockchain and the world of smart contracts to mainstream developers and mainstream use cases which to to me is the goal you know or rather the goal is enabling the cooperation that large-scale deployed secure smart contracts can enable

and that idea i mean basically bringing in all of these developers can you tell me why like why doesn't javascript why can't you write a blockchain in javascript or why can't you already like why is that a challenge like why haven't they already done that what are the what are the challenges of using something like javascript as a smart contract programming language sure so there are i would say two big challenges and we address them both um the javascript as is out of the box is very malleable right you can change what it means to iterate through an array right and have it copy your data and send it off to another country and then iterate through

the array or define iterate through the array as look around on your hard disk for a file named keys right and then send it somewhere right so that's not great shall we say the other thing is that it is as with most languages not deterministic which is to say if you run the same program multiple times or if you say run the same program from the same starting state on two different machines it will produce two different answers or it could produce two different answers and that means you can't really run a blockchain because blockchain is all about running the same thing in multiple independent jurisdictions where they don't trust each other and they're checking each other's work and they come to set consensus about what happens and so if you're going to say

run this smart contract it better produce the same answer every time whether on replay or in you know at the same time in different machines so that the same thing happens and we've been in the javascript uh standards committee for years even at that point and knew how to lock javascript down and the technology for that has evolved and refined somewhat especially in how it's named so hardened javascript is the thing it is standard track version of javascript that is actually the standard now for embedded systems javascript spearheaded by a company called moddable and it has a function literally called lockdown that is called to take that malleable

base of array and number and string and all that sort of stuff and freeze them lock them down so they do the thing that is specified in the standard so array iteration does exactly this and you don't get to change it and especially you don't get to change it for some other you know one library does not get to change it for how other libraries use it and that means that much of of the vulnerability that is pervasive not just in javascript but in rust and in c-sharp and in java and then all these other things where you know if i can do something in one module that affects the the shared world that other parts of the program are operating in terms of now suddenly you can corrupt execution and with with javascript locked down

like that not only is it no longer bad it's actually better than all the other programming languages out there it's just easier to secure javascript than it is um all these other languages interesting and so we end up with with this platform that you can suddenly build reliable and robust software with would you say like was the project's inspiration more coming from the programming language side was it kind of like i we want a hardened js therefore we should do what where what needs some some fight like some fixed language or was it like i want to do a blockchain and we want to use javascript so uh so it was coming from yet a third direction i'm a big fan of third solutions so the primary redeeming feature of

javascript is that it is the number one programming language on the planet and if you're going to solve a problem that where you want millions of developers to join into that solution you have to meet them where they're at um and and help them use their tools and their practices to accomplish this new goal and so it was definitely not about javascript i've designed secure programming languages before mark miller has designed secure programming languages before you know chris quall you know all of us have been involved in lots of other systems and lots of other secure systems that were motivated by the the values and features of the language except for all those languages had you know a few thousand really excited people at best

right as opposed to millions of people and so so if you want to solve a problem go where the light is and do what you can to make that work well for people and so markham was already in the javascript standards committee driving these security features into javascript for the last literally 15 years at this point but they had evolved from technologies that we had built in previous languages we've done this same style of thing in java c-sharp tickle uh c-plus plus o-camel i mean all of these systems we've applied the same design techniques that come from secure operating system approaches and technologies but the key was how do we bring that technology how do we bring that solution into the blockchain world so you know gorick was started as a result of a

panel one of the seeds of which was was zuko and that's how they got involved in getting a gork off the ground which was in 2017 oh my gosh there's all these horrible security holes um reentrancy bugs have now lost us you know 30 million dollars so they fixed that bug and lost another 30 million dollars right and this is not sustainable right if security experts can't get it right what chance does the general populace of of developers have to get it right and the answer is you know big fat goose egg right but they you know zuko uh jorge from gravity uh brian warner who had just been on the security review committee for ethereum um through leased authority

they knew that we had this other approach in this other technology and so they brought together a panel with uh arthur and markham and and and and zuko and and and jorge and so forth to talk about with this approach that markham and i and a few others have spearheaded help with the problems that we're seeing the exploits that we're seeing in the overall cryptoverse and the net conclusion was yeah basically it would and it was colored by the fact that it happened during the tezos rays and so you know arthur's on stage talking about this model that he'd spent you know uh weeks and weeks chatting with markham about and you know from the beginning of the conversation to the end

you know that you know tezos went up by 20 million or whatever it is so that was that was sort of an entertaining color to do to the scene at this at this conference and those of us that were not currently in the space were like what you know totally so it sounds like you joined around the same time i joined that would have been like summer 2017. had you been working though in crypto land before or was it or blockchain land maybe well so the answer is i was a you know one of the early cyberpunks back in the late 80s early 90s so there's a sense in which yes um also i would so at the time i was working on a c5 shall we say it project electronic checks and ironically you know that it

started in i know 2012 or something like that and it was one of the very early users of technology that is related to blockchains though not quite the same so it used uh digital timestamps decentralized digital timestamps to enable uh replacing paper checks with the electronic version right every prior to blockchain every payment mechanism under the sun started as paper and you know credit cards when they lost credit card paper slips suddenly it got legs and you could use it on the internet and all that sort of thing you know same with wire transfers same with and so the the last bastion of requiring paper was checks and there were still 20 billion paper checks in the world or in in the us every year for 30 trillion dollars so it's one of those things

where you know blockchain still has a long way to catch up with 30 trillion dollars in transactions is that still the case that there's so many paper checks absolutely i'm from canada and i know that like checks are still a thing there but when i moved to europe everyone was like really you used paper checks they thought it was very very funny yes that was very very funny and yet britain portugal still use an astonishing number of paper checks i think portugal is number three in the world oh it's because germany does not use it at all anymore i guess uh yeah we'll see uh but maybe but the reason is because as a payment flow it's just better because if i want to pay you if i have to do it digitally now the the system i'm doing it through needs to

understand all of the shipping information and detail about what i'm paying for and so in the context of business you know and and part of the gork model is inspired by this as well in the context of business i don't just send people money there's a quid pro quo i send people money to get something so in the same way that i don't want to be using wallets where i send money to a random number and hope something good happens which is basically the user model in most of crypto right now i want to say i will give you this money if you give me that nft and if if you don't give me that nft then the system guarantees that you do not get my money right well checks are very similar i will give you that this money you know and here's what i'm paying for so you've

shipped something to me you know i'm paying you 10 less because these three were damaged there you go right and that flow is just a better flow for business in spite of the fact that it you know that that it means that banks don't get to sit in the middle and control your payments right and so that's the reason why it hangs on is it is it just has faster payment with better information flow that was the company you were basically working around that space around the checking space but it was different you were moving you were like looking to move paper checks to a digital form by using this different mechanism and have it still be legally a check payment which has better laws for businesses around it better better you know so even at that time i was in payments navigating around

regulations right you know that that that is that is historically always the thing with payments is you're always innovating in a way that that puts you on the edge of that and so it's sort of natural to be in crypto because that was clearly one of the bullets that we were going to be biting but that kept me out of crypto for a while uh partly because you know blockchain was uh way more hyped than substance even though blockchain is pretty wonderful the hype the people that did not understand it what they were saying about it you know i would look at it and go no it's not so that's pretty dumb and so so um so i didn't get into it and i sort of steered clear because when you're innovating in c5 space with really conservative bankers you want to

be squeaky clean so that they're they don't just have a uh irrelevant allergic reaction to you and instead you know seriously contemplate what you're what you're telling them got it but you made the leap after this panel after the initial investment you made the leap into a gork to basically bring a blockchain with smart contracts that would be easily writable by lots and lots of developers um i have to ask the question what is your opinion of solidity because solidity is the kind of programming language for smart contracts it's based as i understand roughly on like a javascript type model but it's confusing to people because it's not exactly javascript tell me what

you think i feel like you're you might have an opinion on this i might have an agreement yeah yeah so first off you know the the most important thing is solidity is wonderful because it brought smart contracts which predate blockchain by years to the blockchain world right so smart contracts are software that's enforcing the terms of a contract-like arrangement between third parties it's not simply autonomous programs running it's really this pattern of you know two strangers being able to cooperate mediated by software and with the terms of that cooperation enforced by software so bitcoin is a smart contract it's not a flexible one it's a particular arrangement between parties that is enforced by the execution of

that software and so you know smart contracts include ebay and paypal and venmo and airbnb and uber and lyft and all those things so so smart contracts were trillion dollar market cap before before blockchain ever existed what ethereum did is it married smart contracts so that you could run user provided smart contracts on a blockchain so it combined you know from my perspective the the value the the what what blockchains bring is replicated execution across multiple different machines in different jurisdictions in different administrative zones all voting through some consensus algorithm to agree on what happened to agree on the data and on the choices and and the results of execution

and that's the gold standard of blockchains and ethereum was the first thing that brought that so hugely valuable it really made a big chunk of this world possible so that having been said solidity is not javascript i mean it's it's not javascript any more than javascript is java right they both use curly braces awesome so does c you know so do various assembly languages that doesn't make it javascript that's simply you know the standard kind of marketing lie you tell people to to make them take their medicine and so that's simply misleading it is i mean it's it's a type language it has 256 integers not floats i mean it doesn't have it doesn't have a spec like like javascript does it don't you know i mean just it's just nothing like it it's also got

critical design issues critical architectural issues that are the root cause of many of the losses that you see and are such that security experts cannot get it right and the reason they're critical architecture issues is because humans can't get it right right you know experts can't get it right certainly not uh intermediate programmers and general mainstream programmers can't get it right because you can take two correct programs put them together and get a bug so reentrancy is not something you can paper over with changes in syntax the security model of message.sender is not something you can paper over with with different syntax it's a vulnerability or an architectural choice

right at the heart now it has the advantage maybe that it made simple things really simple and that might have been very important for getting this thing off the ground so you know it's easy to second-guess choices in hindsight though at the time brian warner pointed out that you're going to have reentrancy bugs here and that's going to be a continual plague and indeed you know there was reentrancy bugs before that panel that i mentioned and those reentrancy bugs last year where someone used one of the other intrinsic insurmountable vulnerabilities of message.sender to create a reentrancy bug and and extract uh 660 million dollars from poly network right same architectural issue it's not as vital it claims because they're doing layer twos and somehow you know bridges

are less safe than running directly on ethereum it's because it's got reentrancy architecture choices at the heart that are not scalable that that the more you break things down to make them composable the more you create risk that you will have reentrancy bug and so to me it's you know there's some things that people have worked out that work they've gotten battle tested they've got assets that's great they may last forever and we may leverage them forever but every single new smart contract you build on ethereum has an intrinsic deep architectural risk that you know i think there's just a very a strong limit to how much people are going to be able to build in this model and at the same time though i mean i am curious to hear what

you think of the proliferation of it like there's a whole generation of folks who've been onboarded into blockchain into programming potentially using this language um do you think do you actually and now with the evm compatible chains popping up pretty much every major l1 has an evm component now so like they're using solidity too so i am curious like how can you even imagine that evolving like is that not going to be the standard somehow no i mean yes it looks like lots of people are coming in there are fewer people programming in solidity on a reliable basis and show up at most javascript conferences right so it looks like a big number when you're

in a small space but 10 000 developers that could potentially do a halfway decent smart contract for defy was electric capitals estimate there are 10 million actually 13 million plus javascript developers and all of those 10 000 developers you know 80 of them know javascript so it looks like a lot it's great it's important it's valuable what they learn about smart contracts will be useful but it's still not the kind that you you're not going to get an exponential ramp there simply because the land mines the security hazards are too deep with respect to the proliferation of evms that's not software smart contract innovation that's replication right it's not that evmos which is a evm chain

you know used to be uh ethermint i think but it's evm in the cosmos ecosystem people are not excited about how people are going to be able to build new smart contracts on evmos they're excited about being able to clone the existing battle tested instances over from ethereum and deploy them in evmos that's wonderful from a defined economic point of view it's zero for it's uninteresting from a evolving the set of developers and evolving the ecosystem and so forth right so that will redistribute some of the solidity programmers and make it that it make cosmos more accessible to them but we've talked to solidity programmers where oh my gosh if i could program this stuff in javascript uh then you know it would take a factor of four or five less time to build it in

javascript than in solidity and that's not counting the intrinsic security hazards there is one other language that is often used in the blockchain world and one that i i mean my old co-host frederick was a huge fan of that's rust uh i'm curious what your take is on that sort of like that being used in blockchain i mean it's also obviously a much smaller community than something like javascript but yeah do you have any other thoughts on it yes uh rust is wonderful when we were doing the midori secure operating system project at microsoft we had a similar thing called system c sharp that had you know some of the shared ideas from our compiler group in the nascent rust community at the time and that's really cool it's really cool

for system programming that's like building the blockchain maybe yeah so so we have an agorak vm you know we did a toy version and rust eventually we'll be able to reproduce it in rust in order to make it you know easier safer stronger whatever to be it for people to to build and deploy javascript smart contracts and and there are lots of wonderful programming languages in the world and there are 13.9 million developers a program in javascript so you know so it can be a good programming language and it can have legs and we will we are actually designed i mean you know i i'm focused on hard and javascript but our architecture is such that we'll be able to plug in things in other languages eventually at the point where we want to the problem with rust is is kind of

twofold it has the normal problem of compiled languages where what you program in and what you're running are different and solidity has the same problem there have been bugs where the semantics the attacker used was the evm semantics to express things that you could not express in solidity and that was what they used to convey the attack the same thing happens in rust where the attacker is programming is writing directly in assembly language or cosum wasm which is just another assembly language and they can do things that you can't express in rust so rust has the same problem as java and c sharp and these other languages do where when you incorporate libraries you are completely vulnerable

to those libraries right so the same thing where you can mutate array in javascript you might not be able to mutate array but if there's any shared mutable state having to do with account balances and i incorporate a library to help me add them up there's nothing you can do in rust well that's too strong there it's you must be vigilant and it's pretty infeasible to be continuously vigilant on all these fronts to make sure that this library you brought in doesn't just add up your numbers wrong but go out and find your files and go and issue transactions right so the architecture of security is still an important thing and if they aren't improving that and they aren't fixing that then the fact that it's in a in a language that doesn't have memory

safety issues isn't really important javascript also doesn't have memory safety issues right small talk didn't have memory safety issues you know now rust gives you much more precision and control of the allocation of memory and that's really nice for systems programming where you cannot afford to do garbage collection but you know it's not a game changer the way people think it is it's a it's a game changer for reliability of systems not in some sense for correctness of systems are there any other languages that do rival javascript in terms of popularity that you also thought of um no i think the answer is really not um you know python is is you know has some of the same legs because you know the scientific

community uses it google uses it etc but a it's not it's not in the in the same world as javascript because it's not part of application building right the thing about javascript is is like if you look at nfts for engagement so uh gaming sites sports sites music fan clubs all those kinds of things they're innovating now forget blockchain they're already innovating and how do they engage their fan base well and whether that's mileage numbers for airlines or real estate sites with their whizzy maps and fly-throughs all that stuff is done in javascript right and yeah okay now that we've added wasm to that and we were part of by the way the growth of wasm

but all the wiring all the orchestration all the imagination of that is done in javascript and so we want to empower those people to be able to extend that into you know the engagement using nfts where they're already innovating in usability and engagement with their customers that innovation is not happening in python right that's that's that's a different level of thing that is mostly uh disconnected from the world of app development and creation of new experiences and so that's sort of the right audience to engage so no i don't think there's anything close um you know i would say you know my second tier of that would be c-sharp or rust because those communities are kind of building the same kind of thing but you know rust is said much better for systems programming and i intend to use it that way but but

uh but not for real rapid application development all right let's jump into the challenge then of javascript making the hardened javascript we'd already talked a little bit about like the fact is it's a malleable language do you feel like as you were implementing this blockchain did you learn new things did you have to change your initial spec of what this would be in order to fit into a blockchain context so there's two levels of answer to that that's really interesting there's what did we do with check to harden javascript and then there's what we have to do for our chain architecture and originally we were not we were considering doing a chain we were

looking at being layer two instead um because then you know the future vision is not just there's an agora chain with hardened javascript but rather you know you use the same model of computation which which is islands of simple synchronous programming with asynchronous messaging between them right that's really the the model of agora computation and we've used that model in a wide variety of systems in a wide variety of production systems rolled out long before blockchain and so being able to run the same computational model on your solo machine in your data center for decentralized applications that have nothing to do with blockchain they're just using multiple servers to do automated coordination on top of multiple different blockchains that's the eventual future model you know in

your clients and so forth because it's a model that programmers understand it's a model they can grow quickly and it's a model that that is secure composable scalable etc so at that level when we looked at how could we make this happen we realized that there were elements to make it work that required being wired into the whole stack of a blockchain so we couldn't just make it a layer two and really have it anchored in what blockchain folks needed to do we needed to have a place where you could deploy these businesses in an economy that that had roots in the infrastructure was running in and so we're not just building here's smart contracts but here's smart contracts with a few key market services

like a stable token that can use to grease the growing economy and with rewards for executing that environment that are paid out in in the form of staking rewards so that there are people that are deeply embedded in that environment that are driving it forward and so that's what led to yes we're going to do an agora chain at the core of it but we'll be able to grow that horizontally with multiple chains support consortium chains gradually grow modules that would run on other platforms or run in the browser or in your cloud services when you're doing you know so you can build games the same way and so forth but the heart of it is that agora chain with core economic modules built on it so there were some architectural changes there as well as technical things of you know if you're writing in javascript

there are sort of two ways to think about the state of your smart contracts one is like ruby on rails of people familiar with it transaction comes in you know i run javascript program that's gonna load code from a database merkle tree whatever it is load code compute some state and then drop everything on the floor and write the state out and that's a transaction and when a new transaction comes in you know the execution is stateless all the state is stored in your database or merkle tree or whatever it is and that's approximately the model of ethereum it's got some significant attractions right it is in many ways it has some simplicity from an implementation point of view and it is you know easy to explain in some cases or in in many cases

what we're doing is more complicated more challenging and it is that course smart contract for services like if you're running a vault system like our our underlying run protocol is a stable token built like maker dao has built but the model of smart contracts is i start a javascript program and it just runs forever right and if the machine crashes it comes back up and it can replay from scratch and get to the same answer because remember deterministic execution we're going to get the same answer every time or it can reload from checkpoints and so we have reload from checkpoints and our machines will restart you know the failed node would restart in six seconds and so what you have is a simple javascript program that didn't think at

all about the the disk and it just lives persistently and accumulates state and it garbage collects and it does all that thing and just lives forever on chain that's a really nice model to get it to work you got to do hardcore determinism man you've got to have the magical persistence so we're able to do checkpointing so we can get that restart and that took a lot of work that took a long time to get working you know our incentivized test net was to be able to test a bunch of that sort of thing and make sure machines didn't diverge and it's a continual you know we have test you know ci infrastructure you know continuous integration infrastructure that runs multiple machines and see if it can make them diverge and that sort of thing so that's challenging tech there's some really cool stuff in our

stack it also turns out that that's not good enough because if you got a long-lived service like our you know vault engine for the stable token that's going to have a million 10 million accounts in it you don't want all those in memory right even even with fast replay and fast restart that's way too much and so you need this hybrid of simple contracts just you know live in memory they run forever whatever the bank the vault factory it has data records in the same way that oh i'm a big enough business i'm not going to remember it all in my head i got to write it down in my books and that goes into a database or it goes into a merkle tree or what have you and so all that balance technology is stuff that we're finishing up uh now to move all the economic contracts to use that

new persistence infrastructure and that was a significant architectural lift that you know is coming together it's really cool as it comes together but i sure wish it had been out you know years ago the other direction is we rolled out hardened javascript the first version of it in 2018 and it's been used uh by salesforce for app exchange you know parts that have been used in in brokerage terminals that that are built in new york whose name i can't say um you know so it's been used in web 2 industry and that gave some battle testing that led to some incidents where mostly it was incidents problems issues

they ran into in the parts that turns out we didn't care about and they didn't care about you know it was just there in order to be part of the overall javascript standard spec thing and solve a and ex be an extension of solving a problem that needed solving in javascript and so we did have a major design change to split those apart so the part that hardened javascript was much much smaller much much tighter much much more securable and this other thing called realms had a life of its own and would proceed on largely independently supported by us in in the standards committee but not as part of solving this problem and that's resulted so now this same technology it's at the heart of uh you know the recently announced metamask flask and snap system um you

know i like that kumavos of metamask you know when we first started working with with metamask on this hardened javascript stuff his comment was i wake up every every morning and quietly panic about my dependencies those same kind of dependencies that you know if i had a rust engine and i was relying on a hundred thousand libraries any one of them can compromise security that's a bad thing in normal applications in practice you look at all the statistics you look at github projects 97 of the code of applications on github comes from libraries that the authors did not build wow that's true of any language pretty much any system pretty much anything that uses components so it's true c sharp it's true of java it's going to be

true of rust at the point where that system matures so the fantasy that you looked at every line of code of every library you're relying on yeah maybe for a medical device not for anything else it's just not realistic and so unlike any other system on the planet you know with our hardened javascript one of the things that the reasons why kumavs and company were so excited about it is that when you load libraries you can load them without authority so when you load a library to compute you know the mean of some large distribution of of prices it doesn't have the authority to read files it doesn't have the authority to talk to the network it doesn't have the authority to do all these things all it can do is do bad math but that you can check that you're expecting you aren't

expecting to go scraping around your disk looking for for for private keys and in hardened javascript and no other system that is available generally in other languages it can't do that it can't get to the files it can only do the things you gave it and that's why as i said at the beginning hardened javascript actually is more securable than these other programming languages because of that that ability and so we made some pivots in how we did that shipped that it's you know again in in app exchange and core elements of this are node.js elements have gone out into the standard for embedded systems uh for extensible wallets in in metamask um in the apis cosm js for controlling cosmos chains etc cool

i kind of want to ask one last question about the language part but then i also want to after that i want to explore actually the components of agorik and how it works as a blockchain but first i want to ask a little bit about i know in the presentation that you gave at the zk validator cosmos privacy scalability edition event recently a lot of words in that one you did talk about like react somehow so do you allow for and i'm gonna sound so not like a coder here but like do you allow for react to also be used within your system okay so the primary do i sound not like a coder writer oh no no you totally sound like a programmer totally sound like a programmer okay

good um you know my bet is you know one month of training you could build smart contracts on our system um welcome to javascript we should take you up on this uh this challenge you know we should okay um uh uh i'm i'm taking a note of that we are totally getting you into programming yeah okay let's do it i've taken all the interest you know we have a bounty program you can get rewards it should just be like get anna to code something yes that's right the cosmos ran these code with us sessions where where one of our developers built an over-the-counter trading desk in our system inside of vs code you know showed how to do it in an hour and a half um so so we just have to have code with anna there you go

um okay react so react.js so so the most important reason i refer to react.js is not because we're using it though we are um it's because it's the architectural example that millions of programmers understand for how our smart contract framework helps them so experts were doing cool stuff in javascript for years in browsers to do interesting interactive applications and there were even some frameworks that that helped with some parts of that but then react came out with some key architectural elements that absorbed some of the hard parts and

in a way that made it not your problem right one of the hardest things to do to make really interactive applications is what i refer to as the repaint problem or really the incremental update problem i displayed some stuff i rendered it now i change some of the stuff and i need to update just the parts of the screen that reflect the fact that i changed the zip code right and if changing the zip code change the amount of tax because there's local taxes i need to redo that part as well and the number of bugs and user interfaces attributable to not doing instrumental update correctly is you know i don't know 60 80 it's a huge huge problem and and so many systems they just don't support it you have to refresh the page to get the right number you know the right answers if you if you

if you do this stuff and so react came along with a different approach to that that solved that problem in the architecture of the framework and it enabled the creation of components such that you could build using the components other people provided and so now six months after react came out and it shipped with a couple of components but people could see that they could do their own components and that their components would plug together with other people's components in order to produce something interesting and richer and so i as a beginning programmer could grab a slideshow component that could show images and let you slide back and forth and animate and do infinite scroll off a database and all that kind of stuff and grab a payment component and plug them together to deploy

a art sales website to sell my art because i'm a freaking artist i'm not um but but if you were um and i could do that without ever being able to write a slideshow component or b or having much clue about how to do payments right and i could do that because the composition rules and the re-enter you know and and the rendering rules and how to handle mouse clicks and all that sort of stuff is supported by the framework has affordances by the framework we can tell me what i'm doing wrong and give me give me errors in a model i understand and so forth so that that is a what i would think of as the pinnacle example of what people have referred to as component oriented programming right

and once people see that i mean it's the same thing that gave no js legs the reason why node had legs and npm had legs is people could see that not only can i build components here but people already are and so i'm going to be able to come and use their components react was there's a bunch of components that i can start with and they're all cool and i can easily add my own and as i start building stuff and you're building monolith you know some monolithic additional thing and you go wow that's annoying i'm going to pull this out as a component and now suddenly oh this is reusable i can make this available to other people and get feedback and someone else you know this one is a component but there's already one out there that's better than what i was thinking i'm going to throw mine away

and use his that's awesome and so you get suddenly literally exponential growth because you're you know every month you know not only you're getting experience but you're getting to build on a month's more worth of more programmers building components and that attracts more programmers to build more components faster and so forth and so it ramped you know exponentially up to five eight million developers building this ui so six months after react came out okay maybe it wasn't six months maybe it was eight beginners with a few months of training could build a more responsive faster stronger better more internationalizable you know uh a mobile-friendly application in javascript than experts

could the year before using the same language but with a framework that gave them the right affordances with a framework and environment that inc that enabled this component driven construction and so our smart contract framework is the same kind of thing but whether the affordances are for pricing and trading in digital assets in exchange rather than mouse clicks and re-rendering okay so you're saying that like the basically to build on your stack you also are going to be able to build these components or components could be built and then built on exactly so a smart contract is a javascript module that exports one function called start that takes an object that lets you talk about offers coming into you and then you

write javascript hook saying when i get a bid offer run this javascript when the seller comes in with this good run this javascript function and when the auction ends run this javascript function and the obvious thing to do is take the bids sort them pick the top one charge them and say i'm done and then the framework handles returning the money to the losing bidders because the bidders you know i was inspired kind of to to pursue this contract framework when i saw solidity by example to introduce brand new programmers to solidity where in the first simple example it showed you how to navigate around six god-awful hazards through which you could lose all of your money right for example the reentrancy bug

well if you if you send them back their money then they can call you back to get their money again and you can send it back multiple times and you know and people lost you know 60 million dollars in each back in in in 2017 you probably don't want to do that you know that's the first thing i have to learn holy crap wow and many security hazards in ethereum are because you send money to the contract and it will decide what happens to it right and um that's like giving your money to the used car salesman and then talking about what car you're going to buy right that that you know yeah you can do some commerce that way but it's not really a growth you know kind of framework you want to deal with whereas in our framework right back to that quid

pro quo the assets you give go into the smart contract framework with the proposal of i will give you these this eth if you give me that atoms right i will give you x eth here they are if you give me uh that nft right let's say it's it's an auction and now that's an offer that i'm making to that contract the framework will tell the contract you have an offer for this much if you gave the nft to this party then you would get this much eth if you don't money goes back automatically and that invokes a hook exactly why where in in a react a react component you say you know when this mouth click happens run this javascript function when this you know event happens run this javascript function and when you

render run this thing right exactly the same kind of thing when a bit happens run this javascript function when a sale offer happens run this javascript function and when you exit run this thing that sorts and gives everything back and now the only thing the smart contract can do is what we call a reallocate where it says take the money from this guy give it to the seller take the assets from this guy give it to that bidder and that only works if it simultaneously satisfies the offers of all of the participants so you can't just take money from someone you can't just you know upgrade a contract to take all the money and go to td the only thing you can do is what we call offer safety where you can reallocate their assets atomically giving them what they want so they either get what they want or they get

their money back that's sort of the basic promise that you would like from any financial exchange kind of framework and we provide that and you just don't get that in any other blockchain environment but here you get that because of the framework and that just gives you this pervasive safety property that that doesn't solve all bugs but it eliminates you know 90 of them 80 of them cool you were kind of citing react as a inspiration or like something exactly you're building something in that direction and we also use that as an inspiration for how do you you know how does someone set up a new program well agora can knit new smart contract and that will generate a ui directory that has a react initial application a api directory if you've got a cloud component and a contract

directory to be deployed to the chain you know exactly the way ruby in it or react in it or one that you know millions of developers are used to starting a project by saying you know get me a skeleton that i can then enhance rather than give me a blank page and and and go from there and so lots of inspirations in terms of i mean one of the nice things in javascript there have been lots of experience lots of well-trodden paths and techniques to grow exposure of a framework to millions of developers and you know traditional marketing mechanisms work because it's a kind of a mainstream market to developers and so those are the things that we're now starting to do as we get closer and closer to launch and so one of those is yeah you know let people build things the way they're used to

starting off cool i want to go into the blockchain itself the l1 we talked you know earlier in this episode about this decision that you were you know originally i in the l2 space maybe you're even thinking like daps then you made a decision to be an l1 to be a stand-alone blockchain yeah well maybe not stand-alone standalone what was your decision making in that time and what kind of led you to the zone the cosmos world so originally we were we were doing a lot of work with polka dot you know we talked to tezos we talked to you know vitalik and eth folks and you know we knew that a we wanted to be across blockchain so we were talking to everyone and we still you know our goal is getting everyone bridged out to

mainstream not you know trying to carve up the current relatively i mean it's still big but relatively small pond of of the current crypto and there were technical challenges there were even some political challenges in terms of getting uh working inside of the parachain model and it's a little bit too you know everyone has to march to the same beat of of how things work and that's fine for some applications but it's i kind of think of that that's like a mall right you know you're going to be at the mall you're going to follow the rules you open when the mall falls and that's a way to build an economy that's really valuable there are plenty of cool malls in the world but that's not a broad large-scale economy when we ended up connecting with the cosmos folk and we were in the midst of building our own

platform but when you know connecting with the cosmos folk it was as i said it was like we found our peeps because the general model that we've had not just for a couple of years but historically since the 80s is independent actors voluntarily cooperating to create an economy that's that's what creates an economy as independent actors cooperating because in you know because there's a win-win there right that's the goal is to make that easier faster better stronger automated etc and so that's the fundamental model that cosmos had as a vision it turns out because part of that well they had and then they found um one of the websites that reflects work that marcum and i did

back in the 90s so the elang websites that talked about remember i mentioned we had done secure programming languages before it was not just a secure programming language but it was a secure programming language in which you could do smart contracts pre-blockchain and it was specifically about how do you do financial smart contracts in in a centralized fashion and they were inspired by that to come up with the the the idea of the interchange and so when we found them we had no idea about this and so when we found them there was just a lot of alignment because their model is not you build you know use the technology stack and build your own zone it's use the technology stack and you and build your own zone that is connected with the interchain communication protocol to other zones well the problem

is of course they did not have the entertain blockchain communication protocol um ibc um but they knew what they you know but they knew that was part of their vision they were starting to work on it and so when we came in and they're like oh my gosh you're the people that inspired this well they didn't say that we didn't know that until we were like four months in um but we we walked through we had a meeting where we walked through what we were building from a protocol point of view and what they were trying to build from a protocol point of view and said you know great let's collaborate and so icf funded us and so we and you know the team at aib then spun out and became entertaining gambiha uh we worked together we were the primary teams working together to

finish the architecture and design and build of ibc mm-hmm so did you work closely with like chris goes absolutely yeah yeah yeah we had weekly meetings and then several rounds of architecture review with a bunch of people providing you know architectural review and input uh thinking about how to integrate with you know proof of work chains how to integrate with solo machines you know how do you incentivize relays all those kinds of things and that group there remains a bi-weekly architectural committee to review upcoming enhancements and and that sort of thing for for ibc um and so so so that's an ongoing activity but fundamentally our architecture has always meant no we're not going to launch in a vacuum no we're

not going to launch disconnected from everything we'll be launching and now it turns out we'll be launching in a connected interchange of 75 billion worth of assets you know that is growing every day and it turns out it's hungry for what we have for our initial use case which is this this stable token that we came up with in order to power our economy running on our chain turns out it's what a community needs because it can be a stable token powered by community assets and that's pretty cool cool so we're very excited about that so you're you know deep in the cosmos ecosystem ibc is now online you are going to be working with it now i want to actually understand what a gorick looks like what is it is it a single like usually when i said like a standalone l1 you were kind

of shaking your head it's like no it's connected it's an l one that's connected fair but is it like do you picture it as a single zone like one time blockchain that brings in javascript and does stuff with other zones or what what does the blockchain of agorik look like so this year yes so that's how we will launch uh the the the launch plans are the first launch you know so we have main net zero which is just the cosmos layer that launched in november and that gets our validator set established that gives us a place to do to do um staking deployment to get the platform hardened to be able to you know people pay people and build distribute tokens you know run the

public sale that we just did that sort of stuff so so our chain is actually live but it's not running the javascript stack the javascript app will first launch where it runs only the smart contracts that that have been well vetted to be non-malicious trustworthy etc so that we can get battle testing in that framework but the first use case is a stable token the community is excited about and not just the igor community but the extended cosmo verse and entertain community is excited about is a stable token that is backed by ibc assets so it'll be backed by build we presume i mean it'll be the community that decides what everything's backed by but people are excited about having it be backed by atom backed by osmo backed

by secret backed by akash whatever it is because of ibc you can bring those assets over to agorak deposit them into a vault take a loan against them and run which is the stable token take that run over to you know akash to pay for execution or injective to buy a perp or whatever it is um you know osmo to put into a pool and it becomes a stable token that is backed by the community assets and that's sort of the first step larger than a gorek so we'll have the agora chain running that is operating on which the smart contracts that implement that operate and they'll scale and so forth and it does asynchronous communication internally but all of that from the point of view of someone running on another chain inside of cosmos it's

cosmos chain it just works right interesting this is like multi-collateral dye but multi-collateral cosmos asset exactly right exactly community collateral community collateral run okay okay okay and you mentioned another token there build oh so build is our staking token okay so that is the staking token for the the igork platform to be able to build the platform and smart contracts and the environment we have but ld ld okay vld okay no it's not bdl it's bld yeah yeah no no build it build it build and run yeah okay so now then the second phase is permission

which starts fairly soon after the first phase is permission deployment of smart contracts and so there'll be some people that we're already working with to do you know we've got nft minting contracts in javascript we've got you know um liquidity mines you know we're working with partners where to be able to do smart contract insurance for our smart contracts and i don't mean just a nexus mutual kind of of not real insurance i mean regulated compliant insurance that that brokerage houses and pension funds would need to participate in in a digital asset ecosystem will be able to do on our platform because of these things like offer safety that reduce the risk and enable more safe interaction of smart contracts

and so smart contracts to support that might roll out in phase two or we may work with reference partners to build their stuff and roll out roll it out in phase two but phase three is the big one you know or i mean all of these are big but um phase three is the permissionless javascript smart contract environment and you know what does phase four look like after that well there are lots of directions we want to go getting more zero knowledge stuff in so you get confidentiality public chains but the other is scaling dimensions where because our model is fundamentally islands of synchronous programming communicating asynchronously with each other we can get horizontal scaling without it being the sharding that is sort of the weird i'm going to take this smart contract that used to be atomic and now

spread it across multiple machines and hope it works the same right now this is you know some smart contracts can be on this chain some can be on that chain you know some can be on a gorick one some can be on a gorg two they communicate asynchronously with each other it's just as if they were on the same chain only except for the latency being higher but the software is the same the architecture's the same the security model is the same it used the same build staking token because of interchange staking it uses the same run because you know that's portable and so now you've got the ability to horizontally grow multiple chains run by potentially different validators with different frequencies potentially optimized for different use cases and so forth and then we'll start working in directions to be able to enable core elements of

the technology to run on other chains in other ecosystems connecting over ibc and with our fine-grained messaging system so you can have sequential islands of transactional uh you know computation and contracts running on consortium chains running in private chains all smoothly interoperating with the public chains and so yes there's definitely a future with more chains but for the first year or two it's going to be chains that are focused around that core chain that provides the bastion of enabling commerce in this model back at cosmo verse in the fall billy from interchain foundation kind of went up and he talked a little bit about these interchange security levels and layers he had these versions of different levels of interchange security and that is sort of like sharing

validator sets or like sharing the security of a validator set with some of the zones and i do wonder like in your model do you actually the way you just described it it's like new validator sets for every single chain do you actually envision potentially a model where you have some sort of shared security where each and i know this gets maybe back in the shard mode mode but it's like each chain would be sh be actually tapping into a single validator set so there is a broad spectrum there the nice thing not just at the agoric level but actually in general the cosmos level is it's largely agnostic to the execution which means you can change that and evolve that landscape of how the

validation happens over time without changing the fundamental architecture of what problem you're solving with a given chain so you know right now we share validators in some important way with cosmos and osmosis and secret and all those things because you know figment chorus one pdp validator iclusion all of those validators are validated on multiple networks zk validator too yep yep zk you know wait what's the name of your validator vk validator okay good uh validate on multiple networks which means you know not only are we getting staking security but they actually have reputational security that extends beyond the agora chain where if they screw us over people on other chains are

gonna know and they will lose stake as a result and you know and they will lose faith in the larger extended ecosystem you know and so that's a level of sharing in the scenario where we are making additional allegoric chains that might have the same validators just means that you at zk validator would be running one machine for a gork-1 and a different machine for a gorg2 you know and you'd use the same processes and practices um but they would be largely independent chains ex from the point of view of validators but they would look the same from the you know they would look like a smooth asynchronous single platform of computation from the point of view of smart contracts and clients using this this extended system and it's just every new sub network stood up would add you

know another factor of two or whatever it is in terms of of performance and scaling now the the kind of thing that that billy was talking about is not only can we do that but what they actually want to do is share the security of the staking pool and so especially for a new zone coming up and one of the question is if you're starting a new zone the question is why right do you have such scale now that you need to have your own validator set and control your scaling um is your model of consensus different so that you need a different consensus engine right and some of them you know if you're doing proof of location that's just different than what what cosmosis tendermint gives you

um is your model of rewards and this is what's important for us the model of rewards and the model of how components interact is different and so we needed to have that you know we we have d5 woven in you know in javascript from the bottom to the top and so that had to be a different chain but if what you're doing is rolling out a portfolio manager you don't need a different chain you're much better off focusing on writing your smart contract and running on an existing chain perhaps until you scale to the point that you need the capacity right the problem is for most applications yes there were there are scenarios where someone could get their own chain and run in their own capacity but but if you're a portfolio manager there's probably advantages in running on the same chain that's running the

the exchanges that you are working with right you know someone who's doing um portfolio management on dexes hard to do that to you know to uni-swap if you're running over there on some other layer too it's possible and it can even be valuable because of the gas prices so you know sommelier and others do that and that's a particular niche but you can't solve all the problems by running off chain and so instead enabling multiple people to run on the igork model and then migrate to their own set of machines that's great but if you are going to start up a chain you know where you need validation you've got a different model you don't necessarily have to have your own validators you know in the same way than polkadot you don't necessarily run on your own set of machines you can use staking borrowing it from you know the deep pool

of assets that are on the cosmos up or at the point they get there on the agora cup right you know the agora chain so you can you can use the staking from cosmos and just have validators that that currently validate on cosmos opt into saying yes i will run that chain too so i can be slashed on either chain and now people investing in me are betting that i will do the right thing already um and i'm making decisions to to validate multiple chains and those stakers are now providing economic security to both chains without it being a challenge for new chains coming up and that's pretty cool right that will make you know i mean there's already 200 plus zones coming up in the cosmos ecosystem you know having to run

200 times 100 new machines that seems kind of painful right but if i could just extend the couple of machines you're already running well maybe you're running 10 or 20 to cover 200 zones that don't have the same load as the cosmos hub or as a gork or some of the core big chains but can solve some key problem or their their bursts or uncorrelated or whatever that's just a huge win from a overall network environment ecosystem scalability point of view cool do you ever imagine there being roll-ups on agorik or do you think it's unnecessary the zk roll up specifically like having a zk and actually this is going to lead me into a bridge conversation but first

first roll-ups yeah yeah so the answer is hey i'm fine with it um so yes we certainly imagine we've talked about it privacy is important to commerce right you know now we're running transparent blockchains and that's really useful to get stuff started but but for a long-term future you just gotta have privacy i mean you know there are lots of reasons why businesses want to be able to have some parts of it private particularly you know if i'm paying people salaries you know or if i'm trying to migrate consulting arrangements i mean there's just stuff that's got to be private i mean and even from a regulatory point of view it's got to be private and so if the fastest way to do that is by having zk roll ups that you know for certain kinds of things man i'm all for

it like a private zk roll up basically that's what you're thinking it could almost be like a private part of the agora stack and because there are private zones but those would require bridging um here you could maybe have it live in your smart contracts basically like live in your system that's right and and i expect that the first way we get privacy is exactly ibc bridging right i mean that that's that's actually that's not a second-class citizen part of the whole point of doing this is you know one of the things that gork wants to be able to do is i mean we're designed from the ground up to be able to do cross chain smart contract action so so you know we've got a bounty shared with akash which is a chain for essentially decentralized reselling of cloud execution capacity where a company

has you know a bunch of cloud capacity in order to do close of business at 5 pm but at 10 a.m it's just sitting on its thumb right it could be doing you know whatever mining or or rendering or whatever job you want to do where it's only you know paying off some of the costs of it but that's still better than nothing and so akash manages all that in a decentralized fashion but if you wanted to have a spot market or a smart contract that was going to notice that a set of machines had been rescinded and is no longer doing its job and that you want to automatically schedule a new set of machines to pick up that workload and go on well that's a smart contract that could perfectly all run on agora because akash isn't set up to do that and and

those smart contracts from a gorek would remote control allocations on akasha would then be responsible for that function so having a smart contractor in gorick informed or or orchestrate or manage or work with a a zero knowledge chain uh you know penumbra or a bridge to to z cash or whatever it is you know that's exactly why having an economy of people that are pursuing independent aims that you get synergy from cooperating with i mean that's all point of an economy so i'm excited about having a very various futures we've talked about about getting zero knowledge technology into agorak but that's not going to stop us from working well with you know and and working to help enable ibc connectivity to chains

that that are taking advantage of the that technology earlier yeah and so off chain trading if you're doing it you know scalable off chain decks just a mix so that you know people can use shielded pools i mean if you've got you know zcash pools and we can bridge you know you take your money out of a shielded pool in an unshielded pool and then bring it across to a gork and buy an nft or uses collateral to get run and buy an nft yes we can see that user 47 got that nft we have no idea who out of zcash is user 47 or who out of some other you know zero knowledge platform as user 47 so now they've got uh pseudonymony to be able to participate in these otherwise transparent markets that's a big step forward for privacy

um i want to go back quickly to the run token the run kind of stable coin this is this multi asset stable coin i wonder like one of the questions and sort of concerns at times about the like fully permissionless ibc model is that you could have a say you have a totally corrupted zone and it's creating crazy crazy tokens that don't exist and it's like just not following its own logic and it's out in the world could that be included in a multi like if it's used as collateral does that hurt you how are you actually like dealing with yeah incoming tokens that's a great question so first off the set of allowed collateral is determined

by governance um our our expectation is we will have an economic committee um mostly not agorik folk but you know people that do financial governance and understand the risk modeling and all that sort of stuff that will participate in that we're working we've got some other things in the works that i can't talk about to be able to do good risk modeling in a way that's transparent and and visible to folks so we expect that that the collateral types that the community will support are the ones that are robust but for each of those you then have the risk modeling to go you know what's the right level of over collateralization what's the right debt limit so you know here's a brand new token they seem good you know they've got good security analysis

they've got a good economic model but it's new you know that debt limit is 10 million dollars where there's you know 500 million dollars in run so our exposure is you know five percent is that what that is um no less than that right let me design your software don't let me do your books um you know so so the way you bound that risk is with those built-in governance parameters and and to adjust over time the risk of exposure and then part of the whole run strategy is there are stability pools that are positioned to cover uh defaults so if you did have you know a horrible spiral like you know um we were relying on you know usdc and the us

government came in and did bad things to them and suddenly you couldn't rely on it anymore then you know there would be bounded exposure and and the price falls you know you start doing some liquidation um and and if it liquidates too fast so that vaults are underwater then uh the default engine covers it worst case the bank is the one thing authorized you know the the vault system is the one thing that is sort of philosophically authorized to more build token and sell it to cover defaults so the chain is the bastion of the underlying run protocol so run protocol is is was designed for enabling the growth of a large economy on the agorik platform so it's exciting there's such huge demand for it in the

inner chain ecosystem and as i said the way that gets managed in the way that the community is able to grow that collateral basis by the community carefully considering those risks and bounding them with appropriate economic metrics and so even though it's easy to think about oh my god some chain could go rogue back to that shared validator thing most of those chains are you know analyzed looked at supported by validators that have skin in a lot of games and part of their job is to you know help support that stuff so if if it starts to go you know uh down in flames you know the the the immediate knowledge about that comes from the people operating the network and those

validators a lot of them are the ones that are really excited about run because suddenly it will enable so much more interchange commerce and interchain economy that they're some of the people that are most excited about the run protocol and so you know so this is going to be an ecosystem thing you know a broad ecosystem thing and everyone's going to going to care about getting that right cool i have one last question dean and then we're going to wrap uh thanks so much by the way for this amazing journey the last question is actually about bridging kind of plays on what you just described what we didn't talk about was like you know we talked a lot about the solidity programming language but we didn't really talk about the movement of things from a solidity environment or evm environment over to an agoric environment and bridging maybe

not only ibc i know you're deep in the ibc build but like what are you thinking around bridges are you planning on having other bridges like clients live on your chain are you working with anybody yes so ibc was inspired by our vision of you know independent systems connected with with interoperability protocols we're very excited about all the interoperability protocol work that's happening and very supportive of lots of different of these bridge technologies so our plan is lots of people in the cosmos ecosystem are working on various different kinds of bridges lots of people in other ecosystems are working on bridging the cosmos all it takes is one of those to work and then we get bridge to ethereum assets so

gravity decks axillar thor chain uh sommelier you know um wormhole we've talked to all of them um we actually have things to offer to all of them and so we're looking at uh various kinds of of partnering to get nice tight bridges with the agorik platform because it will provide you know a gork will be the fastest place to be able to do a new kind of asset because you can write in javascript and roll it out and send it over any of these bridges we have a bridge technology agnostic layer in javascript so it just looks like you know here's a person let me hand it to you and the fact that that goes over the wire to another chain through you know whether it's wormhole or over gravity bridge to eat you know those are all

fine um so yeah we're very supportive of all those we're we're agnostic to them modulo we want to manage the security we want to limit the security so back to the you know how how much are you willing to risk on solana well that's partly on you know bringing solana over some bridge well that's how much do you trust the bridge and how much do you trust the the solana consensus algorithm all right dean i want to say a big thank you thanks so much for coming on the show it's been a long time since you were on this show so yeah it's cool to have you back i'm so happy to be back thank you for having me and and we'll have to talk after run protocol launch because then you can talk about all the other things

we get to do with it so very much so okay thanks so much again dean and i want to say thank you to the podcast editor henrik the podcast producer tanya and to our listeners thanks for listening