Designing Sustainable Game Economies and Scaling Blockchain Games | Roundup ft. Robbie Ferguson

Transcript

really we want to be the One-Stop shop if you need to access something to make your game successful we will support it we even have a mutable Studios where we're publishing six titles internally and building them so we are the call face of what is the iOS stores policy what is the play stores policy what is epic's policy how do we design successful economies how to make user experience good if you have not built games internally you will not build a good product hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to the Wormhole Foundation if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring across chains can be a massive pain I certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that's why we are super pumped to have partnered with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol the Wormhole protocol

connects over 30 blockchains and six different run times including salana SOI ethereum layer twos and more and the coolest part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free you can claim that by just going down into the show notes and clicking on the link all right guys on with the show hey everyone this episode is brought to you by swell a team leading the reaking future with their liquid reaking token R swe now I've talked about liquid reaking on this program before I think it is going to be a massive tectonic shift for ethereum and I am super super excited about it and I like the swell team a lot goes without saying do your own research this is not Financial advice you guys all know the drill again I like this team

and if you stick around I'm going to describe how you can restake your eth in swell earn pearls I layer points and a whole bunch of future rewards so thank you very much for swell for making this episode possible hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to this episode sponsor flood protocol the optimal decks aggregator now if you are a listener of bell curve you know that me is a massive problem which is why we are so pumped to partner up with flood on this season flood is the only gasless and meev free aggregator that not only gets you the best execution but also gives you back all the extra Surplus that you create every single time you swap now this is relevant for both swappers and developers but you're going to be hearing all about them later in the program so for now thank you flood and

back to the show all right everyone welcome back to another episode of Bel curve before we jump in quick disclaimer the views expressed by my co-host today are their personal views and they do not represent the views of any organization with which the co-hosts are associated with uh nothing in the episode is construed or relied upon as Financial technical tax legal or other advice you know the deal now let's jump into the episode all right everyone welcome back to another episode of B CB you got Michaels one and two Vance and today we're joined by Robbie Ferguson of immutable guys welcome what's up thank you great to be here another week another billion dollar airdrop that is uh inexplicably

inexplicably staying up there you love to bullish to the space yeah the degeneracy is uh looks like we are we are back on here and we're we're gonna take a break from from all that this weekend actually do a little bit of a special focused on uh crypto gaming and kind of get a state of the union from Robbie but also Michael and fance is you guys are obviously super in the weats on the space and and yeah frankly Robbie we kind of want to grill you a little bit on immutable and just the business model um some of the new stuff that you have to but yeah before we start giving you the the third degree though can you just kind of like zoom out for a second for folks who like might not have been following the gaming ecosystem in crypto quite as closely you

just give us kind of like a state of the union how are things like you know what who are the different actors like how many games are sort of in production like imagine I know that can kind of give us a give us high level great uh so high LEL thesis what is web gaming it's the idea that when people play games and they earn or purchase digital Assets in those games in web 2 they're getting zero dollars of value for it they have no sense of ownership and no ability to trade and this is the largest segment of gaming demand today $150 billion is spent every single year on in-game items this isn't the ability to play Call of Duty or or Candy Crush it's buying the skins in those games or the coins in Candy Crush

and it's a very simple concept which is you can take the exact same value proposition of digital ownership that Bitcoin invented and ethereum popularized for Unique assets with smart contracts and nfts and take that to this segment of of in-game items and the reason we were fundamentally so interested in it it was the first category in crypto for us outside of payments that had real clear product Market fit and utility this is not speculation this is not hey this might one day be real this is every single year gamers are getting ripped off by spending money on assets they no longer have the ability to sell or trade or they're told they have the ability to trade and then get ruged Counter Strike go is the perfect example of this we made the company in 2017 two months

later csgo which is the largest database based skin trading economy in the world in web 2 uh which trades roughly uh $15 billion every year they changed their policy so you could only trade assets once per week and overnight the value of these assets plummeted they restricted third party Marketplace access and hundreds of millions of hours of gainous time and hundred millions of dollars of Gamers money was deprecated and we think that if you make representations like that to players it has to be real so that's the big I guess thesis of of what it is now where are we at in the industry I would say it has been simultaneously uh one of the most invested in categories but also sort of the slowest to Market and the reason behind that is unlike def5 where you can

have uh funding wave and Andre cronier can slip a project into produ in one month games take between two to four years to build and they typically don't ship on time even for professional Studios so there's been this huge lag between the funding cycle which was roughly two and a half years ago when sort of the web through gaming investment Bull Run started to when the production Bull Run is going to begin when these games are going to start to launch uh and 2024 is the the year in which from our internal metrics rough 35 to 40% of these games are going to go live and that's kind of adjusting for delays on on time at the same time we've seen uh roughly $1 155 billion doar US invested into web through gaming over

the last three to four years across infrastructure and games um a good chunk of that into a mutable and polygon uh we've seen uh a huge amount of institutional adoption even in the last uh three months we had Vanek uh covering gaming as one of their sort of categories to be pushing the next wave of adoption for for users and it's pretty clear right now every single blockchain in the world wants to win gaming as their number one focus it is if you can win the next 100 million users that are going to come through web 3 if you can actually deliver on the promise of invisible use cases of web 3 that radically improve consumers lives that is the best validation we've had of web 3 outside of payments today uh which is the core product Market bit I would say we we've reached so that's where

we're at uh in terms of Rie a mutable as an enormous amount of games launching we've just shipped to mutable Z KVM in Early Access and these games are waiting until that goes into to mainstream launch roughly the end of March April and that's when we going to see roughly 30 Games launch even by the end of July and and then a lot more over the rest of the year so we're sort of uh in the C before the storm we obviously have a bunch of successful content on imut X um inw with ailan da godan chained with 50k ma sort of sustained over the last few years uh but really it's it's at pre-launch periods um I mean one of the things that I've been impressed by is just like how much resources you guys have and and how

much you're able to kind of go off and Tackle um could you get into kind of like the resourcing of the company the balance sheet but also like all the pipeline that's coming like I think it's like 250 300 games are building on immutable right now are those like 2024 2025 what what's the expectation there yeah so I think on resourcing the first thing is is unlike other blockchains or or uh companies we focused on gaming from day one this is our only focus and even before we had the resourcing we did today so we raised 200 million from TC 10cent bit craft sort of the Singaporean government a couple of years ago and and we actually barely touched that um but we really I think the biggest benefit is

we only focus on gaming our product designed for gaming our go to market motion is designed for gaming and that meant even when we only had $20 million we were able to compete to to with the biggest blockchains in the world and that was because our product was custom designed for that use case rather than us worrying about art woring about Collectibles woring about defi worrying about Stables we just radically focus on this and I I honestly think radical focus is more important than resourcing because the biggest companies in the world have tried to win gaming in web 3 and they can throw as much cash as they like they can't effectively understand customers needs requirements this is a very complex category creation exercise and unless you build stuff yourself it's very hard to to build the right product um on the resourcing side uh we we have

I think more than 230 million um across a mutable uh balance sheet and and Foundation that'ss cash if you look at uh tokens um we have more than a billion dollars of tokens on a mles balance sheet the foundation we work with which listed IMX has more than2 billion do worth of uh tokens to expand the ecosystem that is unspent and that's thanks to the efficiency with which we sort of uh mutually align incentives with Partners we work with rather than just you know writing ground that dump on the market so um well resourced 100% radically focused on gaming uh and I think we're in a position now we're really trying to you know people often ask like who do you think about your competitors I think it's kind of a silly question I think any competition is

pretty Zero Sum at the point we're trying to tackle a trillion dollar industry with massive incumbents who have huge incentives to keep that industry locked into a web two database if you know it's it's not a win to takes all it's going to be a market where we have to create this category together and the the benefit this will bring to players is going to outweigh anything we're squabbling about today and can I touch on that Michael but but a really important thing is these these games are not indie sort of longtail games we have tens of thousands those signed up to testnet we we can't even track in and run of those right it's build a self-service product these are games we've we've tracked we've rated internally they have minimum you know millions of dollars of funding to there

might be less than 10% that have less than $1 million of the context and uh it's also sort of accelerating at PACE um so in the last eight weeks we've onboarded over 50 games uh with which signs and really are focus on games that are going to deliver long-term utility and become fits this is not how do we you know uh do yield farming or or run incentives and and and and create the impression of hits It's how do we have games where there's 10 million players and fundamental marketplaces that are going to sustain for the next decade um and we only need three or four of those for us to start making a fundamental dent in the industry the entire industry is hit driven and we're talking about hits that are real web two hits not a hey 100,000 people from web three are

sort of interested in talking about this thing so you literally stole my question line but uh I'll I'll let that one sorry sorry but uh may maybe to to dive a little bit deeper um like what would you define as a traditional web three native game and I know you and I have talked about this but like what are some of the characteristics that would define web 3 native game versus like a game that would could be on web two and you slap a token on it and and call it web three so we really think about what web three games will be successful and I realized slightly dodging the question that we we think they can come from any level of spectrum they can be totally web3 native and I would argue to an extent alium is web3 native even they're going after a mass Market audience

because they have essentially tokenomics at the core of what they're doing their entire economy is on chain so we really think about how much value is pointed towards giving economic empowerment I'd say less web 3 native is when it's a game that's doing a very thin integration maybe a portion of their assets are onchain or or real ownable assets of course you have at the very end of the spectrum fully onchain logic I think we have 20 games building this we we're we're excited to support them um I think that it will be at least another cycle before these start to take off Beyond web 3 um because I think it's very difficult to on board as a a web to customer and really the value we have to do is not ship more content to 100,000

monthly active users of crypto Twitter it's shipping game with an economy under the hood that gives people ownership and can then get 10 million players like that that's actually expanding the category we're in um so I I guess that's how we think about both obviously we have a ton of content like tree by by luy which I think is one of the most uh hyped web 3 titles at the moment but still they're going for a mainstream audience while also accessing this we 3 audience in my mind web 3 is going to be incredible whale monetization they're going to be the people who want to own guilds help sort of build the economy from scratch web 2 is going to be the 10 million plus customers and over time hopefully these people get the identity of this that's the goal that like you have to build accessible products and by

the way we have one other super hyped web 3 like you you'll sort of know what I'm thinking if you think about one of the top three most anticipated games we're going to be announcing them in the next week very nice nice I've got a got a question for you Robbie how would you I think one of the things that surprised me when crypto be crypto gaming and kind of like nfts cross the chasm someone into mainstream and you saw this really allergic reaction from Gamers web 2 and they were like I don't want this because they viewed it as you know if you add a financial component to a game then it kind of takes away from this experience of like playing the game and yeah um you know someone gave this example I can't remember which podcast I heard this on but you know if you if you almost think

of Poker as a game you know that's a game like it's fun and the point is there's a financial component to that and it is the point but the point and the you know the fun and the money are like synonymous with with one another so can you give us like can you actually be a little bit more like concrete about some of the different experimentation that people are running and like what are some like cool new you know without giving away anything proprietary or whatever like what are some interesting new examples that people are running about how to actually like merge this these two things which seem disparate which is the the Financial part and the gaming part poker is an interesting one I would say poker will be a subset of category of web three games where the economy and the game is intertwined not

many people would play poker if there weren't money involved and typically that's not what we won out of web three games we want games that will have high retention and could succeed in web two and suddenly we're adding all this value on the economic side I think that's necessary because otherwise it's impossible to divorce is the game fun or is it running on incentives and is it zero some and will it not be able to be sustained over time only only when you can have net inflows because the the utar value the intrinsic value of people wanting to play the game and just spend money normally is high enough then it's sort of a sufficient base to have this explosive economy I mean people would play CS:GO even if they weren't a thriving asset marketplace now there gets to be this enormous economy built on top of it and then I'd also say

there's this vend diagram over here of people who don't even want to play the game they just want to play the economy of the game and that's fantastic but I think without this piece people who play the game without the economy this can't exist uh and and so that that's kind of fundamental I mean some people play poker right and it kind of fits the goal on that but it's very merged um how I guess I think about this more broadly is you know we have to be building uh games and economies that are sustainable and we think about this very deeply a lot of our experiments with Guild of Guardians are even when you have a mobile game you will have a huge rise in the first month that is typically 10 times the plateaued monthly active numbers a that game and

that's a very healthy way that mobile games launch they have a huge initial launch most web through games that they went through that experience today would fail because you have this huge uprise in prices then you have this uh drop off and the reflexivity is going to kill the market and that's going to kill the players that's why you need ways of almost like Market making and and sort of backing the value of these economies which are some of the things where we're thinking about with gild of Guardians the final thing I'd say though is this is a very Western perspective and I I realize we're almost in a western cultural sphere I think crypto Twitter is very Western as doesn't care Asia is like I want to spend money on games and I want to spell thousands of dollars and I will pay someone even part-time to

make sure I'm like in the top ranking group I was literally hang out with someone in Dubai who has a full-time person who plays their mobile games for to make sure in the top group right and like spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on these this is they accept that they're not like hey gaming should be free to play it shouldn't be able to impact power so and I think that's great I I think these are just two different audiences there's two different styles of games but this idea of Gamers don't want to pay for power it's a very Western Centric uh view so I I I that's partially why I'm so bullish on on Asia as well yeah I mean the the biggest games in China are pay to win like this is a cultural phenomenon that exists outside the US um I I guess getting into the the product

side of the house like it feels like a lot of the industry has been waiting on the zkm that you just launched to kind of go forward that's like you know the the kind of Lynch pin of a lot of the launches uh you've got the global order liquidity book could you talk about you know those two in passport as well and like this coming together to to facilitate the launch of all these games there's three Central tenants to how we think about building a mutable product the first is security and this is Paramount that has to come first the reason that we built uh with an app specific roll up so non evm compatible is that was the first instance of ZK proved uh essentially scale technology that was available and and we built that

with starx with a mutable X that's live today it's been live for the last two and a half years uh with the mutable in KVM we get to solve the Achilles heal of that which is evm compatibility and that was really last year the only reason we'd lose deals is because the games wanted to be able to drag and drop smart contracts from eel one now they can and they can also build with apis uh which I'll I'll touch on a second which is sort of how do we get the next 10,000 gaming customers once this really starts to exploit uh dkbm Early Access launched last week and was a huge effort from the engineering team that like they I don't think they took a day off over the Christmas break um we're basically testing this for the next two months and then we'll be slowly merging into um a

full sort of marketing and mainstream launch in in March April with a lot of these games going live as well and overall that that's the first ten the second thing we think about is under the hoods our product strategy is uh resolving liquidity fragmentation and you this is a very popular Concept in web 3 right now I'm not jumping on the bandwagon you can go back to my video with bank list two years ago where I talked about this this has kind of been goal number one uh since day one with the company and liquidity is fragmented at three fundamental areas of the stack today you have liquidity fragmented at marketplaces you have liquidity fragmented between rollups and between chains and you have liquidity fragmented at the wallet layer and we have three products to solve each of

these and the goal is at the end of the day digital ownership is nice but if you can't get better prices for things it doesn't matter and liquidity drives everything so especially when we think about asset economies when you look at a Marketplace and I I usually bring up the diagram but if anyone has seen that famous diagram of Craigslist the reason Craigslist died is it tried to be the marketplace for everything the single point of hey if you want to trade a house if you want to uh find someone to to date or or to do other things if if you want to rent a home or hire someone on the internet This Is The Place To Go actually houses became Airbnb and zow labor became upwork and f that like all all the unbundling of Craigslist yeah

very famous yeah BC Jim Jim Clark you're either bundling or unbundling and those are the only two ways to make money yeah exactly and a big thesis from day one in gaming was imagine I don't know you're you're in fortnite you earn a John Wick skin uh you you get a Mickey Mouse skin it seems like it's it's going to be next and you want to sell it then and there for eight bucks you got this really rare skin signed by you know uh Ninja or or the latest streamer the zist the best place that someone wants to sell that skin is going to be inside that gaming experience uh they don't want to jump off they don't want to write down their 24 seed words learn what the marketplace is 99.99% of your users going to drop off by that point the problem is they

list that asset for sale the buyer has to also come from that that domain and that's actually not how things are going to work a lot of Demands side liquidity is going to come from the giant marketplaces it's going to be programmatic Goldman Sachs will have trading desks for gaming Assets in 10 years and they're going to be trading by apis not by people scraping inside of fortnite so this is the one of the most important areas of liquidity fragmentation today our Global Order book is very similar to a centralized order book in finance if you heard of it but it's not centralized in the in the web 3 sense just in the sense of aggregating liquidity and this means if you're game you can list an asset for sale and that buyer can come from anywhere it can come from a third party Marketplace token Trove beam openc it

can come from apis it can come from a custombuilt Marketplace which doesn't even look like a Marketplace we think a lot of trading is going to be contextual so the player I don't know you you just uh got killed in Call of Duty you're in the death cam you see this dope weapon hey I want to buy that exact thing that doesn't look like a grid by- grid Marketplace necessarily and over half of our trades today are listed on one venue and alter another that means you're more than doubling your volume if you're a game by using this protocol the marketplaces themselves are getting access to double Dem man of Trades and my favorite thing is that we're economically empowering everyone if you're the marketplace or Vue which lists an asset you get to take a maker fee if you're the marketplace which buys an asset you get a taker fee if you're

the creator of an asset you get permanent royalties which persist no matter where it trades and is always locked in unlike the ability it to be blurred or X2 Y2 uh and that's enforced at a protocol level we're the only protocol that that enforces that in the world so I mean that's kind of our approach number one uh sorry I won't go on too long at I tried get the second one wallets uh which is uh basically you have two kind of wallets today you have custodial wallets like metamask and you have uh sort of easy sign on uh wallets and and they range from centralized wallets where they're storing your your servers to sort of NPC or self- custodial wallets with easy sign on we've gone for this path the problem with this area is in order to create a good user experience for a gamer you

have to compromise on either security by holding their keys for them or interoperability by segmenting a wallet per game per user and segmentation is awful because it means if you're a user and you deposit 10 bucks to buy an uial you then can't use that 10 bucks on any other game which means there's literally no network effects us have to Reon board with every game imagine you're downloading a game in the app store and every single time you want to do an IAP you have to resign up with your account you have to deposit your credit card lines in again again 95% conversion kill what we've built is not only self custodial so you're in self- custody of your keys with a split MPC system uh and not only does it support invisible

signing which is incredibly important so the game can do say merge uh items under the hood without you even having to to click sign or go off app but it does all of this while preserving interoperability of funds uh and the way we accomplish this is we have IM mutable act as a co- signatry that can set permissions per game so the problem with the the normal model is you have to give in order to give a smooth user experience you have to give that game elevated privileges over signing you have to say okay well you can sign over transactions for your game we act as a co- signatry and we're almost like hey how much would you like to spend on this game what level of control do you want to give them in terms of permissions and that means you can deposit 10 bucks in a

im mutable passport and use it on every single game so as soon as we have a [ __ ] game with a billion dollars deposited every other game can access that pool of funds and the network effects and fly will starts to build unstoppably Gamers make more money games make more money we're creating uh sort of a unified liquidity context and the final one is rollups uh and again I've spoken about this roughly 18 months ago this is now going live this year but uh with a mutable we're going to have approaches announced soon around horizontal scaling um very similar to to dkbm but sort of custom for platforms or games and essential to this is I I don't know if anyone listening I know Vance and Michael know him but chain link God the

pseudonym wrote a very famous piece called the L1 rotation thesis right it's actually one of my favorite pieces in crypto it basically says every time there's a new Bull Run ethereum gets congested uh gas fees go up this creates a narrative fter for someone to create an ethereum killer with reduced decentralization and better scale and in order to scale that though because it's a brand new network you have to raise hundreds of millions of dollars from BCS and they love to do that because they make a lot of money and this is this endless cycle that we've seen in crypto there's nothing wrong with that cycle I'm just pointing it out the reason they need to raise the funds is because it's a new island we've got to get people on the island we've got to get uh mango sales people on the island uh we've got

to get fishermen on the island I'm going to stop that metaphor it's going nowhere um but we we basically are solving this with cross roll up liquidity by meaning that if you list an asset for sale on any immutable supported rollup you can buy that on any other rollup completely atomically now a lot of people have promised this what's the difference with the mutable vertical integration we control not only the rollup logic we control the aut book and we also run the passport the use the facing font end which means you can say as soon as you bid on an asset on another rollup with funds on one immutable rollup rather than as soon as you signal to me someone going and front running that you can uh automatically lock down any bids on that asset and make sure that swap is invisible to the end user and atomic

with shared security because everything is running on ZK security models and otherwise have the weakest link phenomenon where what has the the chain the workst link can then Bridge into cascading failures across all chains that some up is our product strategy around and a lot of this is not exposed to end user right this is our sort of liquidity and network effect strategy but that is incredibly important for when we have uh games be hits we need that to make sure everyone else is making more money and everyone else can can get better value hey everyone want to give a quick shout out to the Wormhole Foundation if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring across chains can be be a massive pain I certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that's why we are super pumped to have

partnered with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol the Wormhole protocol connects over 30 blockchains and six different run times including salana soie ethereum layer twos and more and the coolest part about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free you can claim that by just going down into the show notes and clicking on the link all right guys I'm with the show hey everyone this episode is is brought to you by swell a liquid reaking protocol in the issuer of the ru liquid reaking token now if you're a listener of bker if you know then I am just so fascinated by reaking and liquid reaking I think it is going to be one of the most important Trends in ethereum and I am really excited for the benefit that it unlocks

both users and also ethereum the protocol itself now disclaimer whenever there's yield involved in a product do your own research this is not Financial advice you guys know the drill but swell is a great team they have a non-custodial product and they are mission driven on giving you the best liquid staking experience if you take one benefit away from using liquid reaking make it be Capital efficiency now you can earn passive yield from ethereum you can earn yield from multiple actively validated services that stack on top of that and then you can still use our S as collateral in D5 and because I know y'all are a bunch of degens there's a points angle here as well but in swell we call them pearls so pearls equal points and if you stake your e with swell you can earn pearls and future igen layer rewards when

there's a token generation event you can swap your pearls for swell tokens head over click the link at the bottom of this episode again just pause what you're doing right now go click the link at the bottom of this episode check out swell than to you later hey everyone wanted to give a quick shout out to this episode sponsor flood protocol the optimal decks aggregator now flood is the perfect partner for this episode on the multi-chain future because flood is solving so many of the issues that we're going to be talking about this season and this is relevant for both Traders and devs so if you are a Trader you should defin definitely head over to flood Swap and start trading because they solve three massive problems one gasless trading no more pesky trading fees two you don't have to worry about getting front run me free and then three

they have excellent order routing so that you know that you are getting the best price so head over to flood Swap and click the link in the bottom of the show notes we're going to send you right there for the devs out there you can leverage floods flexible hooks allowing you to make swapping a first class primitive by adding custom order types like t- wops or if you're a wallet Builder or something like that you can actually build your own orderflow auction in and start recapturing a bunch of that me if you want to reach out to them go to devs flood. bid or just jump right in the Discord all right guys thanks very much appreciate you flood so just to double click into this um it started with the mutable X which is built on starkware um that that got things going um now you're moving into

the zkm which is going to be an implementation um I I believe with polygon as well um you know the the tech partner on that side um that becomes the unified application layer for for games to be launching later this year there's going to be uh rollups roll apps whatever the equivalent is for games which are going to be unified chains maybe just to dive a little bit deeper I think one of the issues um we have been asked about and talked about a number of times is um do users have to pay gas or what is the wallet onboarding experience the second you get hit with that metam Mas login um you know what happens what's that what's that drop off you talked about the 95% drop off at the monetization level while even onboarding is difficult these

days let's talk a little bit more about like what it feels like for a gamer to let's say open up a new immutable game uh on ZK TBM or on a roll app in in three to six months and and what that experience would be like versus what it is today honestly I think it's pretty good even today um so I mean if anyone's listening go to passport. ut.com try signing up give us your feedback it will take you less than 10 seconds to create a self custodial wallet that can be used on any medable game and it works on mobile it works on iOS it works on Android uh it it works invisibly if you want to embed it as a game uh so we're really proud of that we will continue to iterate that I think

that team's only goal is how do you improve use of friction in conversion like how how do you make it so as soon as someone hits this point and onboarding to W through game the maximum amount of people go through and the maximum amount of people come back uh and our approach is it has to be email sign on uh or it has to be some some sort of embedded o off and so you you can sign on with uh email but you can Al also sign with iOS and you can also sign in with Android um the second question I think you had Michael is uh gas and uh this is is well lined up because the other thing we just announced uh and and we'll be live from day one on dkbm one of my favorite things about a mutable X is we could say it was gas free and that

was because it was an app specific roll up and people L that right they're like gas is is terrible not because often it's hugee but because even if it's a fraction of a sent right the average cost of a transaction on dkbm by the way is going to be typically uh a 10th to 100% so 100% for for a transaction that's that's how CH it's going to be with Lum the problem though is if I'm a new user and I have to buy even a dollar worth of gas fees to one board massive conversion cut off it doesn't matter how much it is if the active I have to get this asset at all to pay for things and I have to look at the the gas fees when I'm transacting in order to uh to transact and what we've done is uh full gas sponsorship for gamers so basically

the the thesis is gas free for gamers now of course on zkm it's not an absolute big roll up we have a sequencer H gas is required to manage congestion on the network but what we've done is games can pay for this on behalf of their users so if you're a game and for half a million dollars for the lifetime of your game that can be worth a billion dollars you can pay for every transaction that would kill conversion it is an easily an economically good idea if you do so and of course if you work with us and and and sort of you go through our program we we'll help subsidize a lot of those early costs similar to edit well else helping startups uh and the thesis here is we can just have an economically good decision for all stakeholders and we can

make the experience invisible to end players and that's available if you use a mutable passport so just to to tie it all together um I guess first question is like how should how should we think about there's a lot of moving Parts like in my mind it's kind of like the ethereum gaming blockchain it's kind of like an L1 in and of itself um so I think that's the first question is like how do you tell the story of that and then the second one is you know if you don't make gas bees like how does the token work uh especially with respect to royalties how to describe a mutable probably not the way we've done on this call because this is a very technical call for people who are interested in our product strategy and our Network

right so like this is the stuff we we talk about as as and whereas are you going to appr why are we building this stuff at the end of the day our marketing is for games and Gamers how do we make this seem like the best place to build your your game and how do we make this invisible to the end user Games should not know they're even using web 3 for the majority of people who are on boarding and and so the way I describe immutable is very simple it's a a a platform where you can build a game where people can truly own their assets uh or a web through gaming platform um but of course it does encompass uh sdk's wallet rollups and and chains uh and our cross rollup liquidity strategy checkout which is our Fiat on board and and and payment

strategy uh we have the global AUD book which is our Marketplace uh empowerment liquidity strategy and so really we want to be the One-Stop shop if you need to access something to make your game successful we will support it we even have a mutable Studios where we're publishing six titles internally and building them so we are the call face of what is the iOS stores policy what is the play stores policy what is epic policy policy how do we design successful economies how do we make user experience good if You' have not built games internally you will not build a good product there is so much feedback like Justin hog our chief Studio officer who used to run Riot games Asia is on our product teams you know but every single day saying this is not good enough this is not good enough that means it's already gone through 100

durations by the time even KS our B2B platform customers and that is how every great platform in existence or most of them have been built you had uh steam start off with Counter-Strike GO that was their dog food that was their primary customer and then they were able to make this incredible platform for for web 2 obviously we we think philosophically different but objectively that is a a a very successful platform um your second question Vance was uh sorry remind me how do you make how how does the token work yeah so uh the token we we always wanted to give it very clear utility and and uh the the foundation which issued the token basically has uh every single transaction on immutable takes a 2% fee on trade to the network and of this 2%

20% must be paid for in IMX the token and in order to avoid any use of friction that can be swapped under the hood that 20% Then is taken to anyone actively uh staking and using the network and essentially uh paid out to those people so what this gives is this uh utility that uh basically is in every single transaction on every single game on every single roll up and every single uh you know Wallet transaction across the imal platform um it has very clear utility and H you know I I think it's very similar to it an exchange mile toket got it I've got a question Robbie about liquid uh just this idea of

fragmentation and I was thinking about it when I was using I've been messing around on farcaster warcast just like everyone else has this week and you know I think part of the what has contributed to this feeling of l2s being fragmented is every most use cases that people are using onchain product for today as a financial product so it creates this sort of like okay I got to move my eth like for my coinbase to main chain and then I gotta like Bridge it up so I can get access to the [ __ ] that I want to buy like you know to LP on the St I read this very funny them post the other day which is the the guy on his deathbed and is like tell my family to you know withdraw my steak Dee from uh uh they you know I I I can't you recall it's was

very funny yeah we can imagine what that is like 10 different steps right like God forbid to try to do anything over in the cosmos no offs you know but like I me it's it's tougher over there so I feel like that has contributed because of the prevalence of like almost exclusively Financial use cases and trading and wanting to buy uh you know coins of various U whatever and it's given everyone this idea that things are very fragmented but if you start to you if you start to look at things from a like a social app like perspective like on farcaster people just go and sign up for warp cast it's like what liquidity I'm here doing everything that I need to do it doesn't really matter where it is I IM is kind of like that on a game too it's like yeah I like went to play my

game and then I signed off like what are you talking about with this fragmentation like does that does that perception like matter a little bit less for your customers is actually there's there's two there's two answers to this Michael I think it's a really interesting point um the first thing I'd say is the fundamental premise of what you've just said is like content comes before liquidity and Defi and I think that's actually right content actually will beget that and I think crypto has kind of inverted this because there's so much focus on financial infrastructure and then proving that that Financial infrastructure worked with incentives that we're kind of putting the carpet for the horse like Financial Services aren't interesting inherently Financial Services service primary use cases like the reason we have the ability to go

long or short on stuff people want to trade that stuff in the first place there's that famous example of like the only reason you can purchase a McChicken burer is because in the 1980s uh ralio helped create the Futures contracts that enabled like the creation of or the stabilization of the primary assets so they could have stable costs for creating the I don't know the flower or something I'm not going to get too deep the same thing is kind of happening with web 3 and that's why I think if you we don't even care about the def that builts on our chain from game one because as soon as you have this game with 10 million players defi is going to copy paste over and and start to service these primary use cases like Counter-Strike GO is $15 billion of trades on a web two market place where

the owner constantly [ __ ] with people's ability to trade it on secondary marketplaces and and and trade locks imagine that's open imagine you have Futures contracts on that imagine you have loans protocols this thing is going to explode into $150 billion Market overnight that's typically the size of secondary financial markets compared to the primary volume so I think you're precisely right in Zar is like build the content and this ecosystem is going to emerge but where I'll say is you resolving at a structural or technical level liquidity fragmentation is still incredibly important because liquidity fragmentation has even higher switching costs for nfts than it does for e20s because at the end of the day I can move a billion dollars worth of ethereum for 20 bucks it's a single transaction and I can move them from Unis swap to Sushi

swap to start my you know yield earning that's why you have so many vampire attacks in web 2 if you if you're going to try and move a billion dollars of assets from a Network that has switching costs good luck it's probably going to be you know close to a billion assets maybe if it's a dollar per asset each of those has a a gas fee of like depositing or withdrawing of even a buck you're looking at like using ethereum for three months consecutively in order to transfer assets so having everything be on a unified state of listings and asks and and um a shared security model is incredibly important for nfts because the ability to have uh market makers or people seeking to resolve value and efficiencies by Arbitrage is much more expensive and more costly um when it comes to to sort of unique assets I was

gon to say like do you have a sense of I'm almost trying to get like this is so tough because obviously we're still in the you know we're waiting for a lot of these games to launch but I guess the way that i' would be thinking about it um just not knowing as much about your business as you do it's like okay we're trying to get you know some percentage of daily active users that are actually playing this game and then maybe there's some sort of metric of like a conversion rate to like okay you know in the course of playing this game like x amount of people are going to get this asset and then I need some amount of liquidity to support the know the the buying and selling of this is that like roughly the right way to think about it yeah we we

often think about what will the um I guess the the ma to mad we we have mad which is monthly activ buyers people who are like spending value each month at the end of the day how many people play a game is is important but also what people track is what's your Aro what's your P your paying user um and and you'll have the same thing in web three I think the goal is and I've heard this a few times the really interesting stat is like three to four% of Gamers spend money on games but that's because they don't own anything what can we get that number to when you can actually own and earn stuff especially if you can earn value by playing the game sell it and suddenly you've never actually had to spend a dollar but you have coins in the system and that is as

your on boarding funnel and how much more can that three to four perc because we know all Gaming revenue is power law driven how much more will they spend when they can sell these assets later on we know from Gods Unchained the number is between five to 10 times the clv average of trading card gaming web 2 when you can actually sell these assets later on we've seen incredibly high clvs in web 3 that will diminish a little bit as these games go mainstream because it's going to be Ed by the the average but I think the average revenue per paying user is going to remain remarkably high as you have you know the whales who spend a million dollars on Game of War which they do at the end of the lifetime of that account maybe they can sell the account on the black market

for five cents on the dollar in this market it can be something where they can have it go up in value the change in Psychology the change in the value that that player gets is going to fundamentally change the business model of gaming and the reason I'm excited is for the first time it can be incentive LED gaming and Publishing Gamers versus Publishers always been an incentive misaligned play anytime you have a primary Yeshua who's trying to sell assets who can also control the supply of future assets and so can dilute or increase the value at any point in time you have this crazy game like it's like this watch game where how do you manage the secondary markets of Watches or any luxury asset the only way you fix that is with incentive alignment stop monetizing viia primary sales monetized with royalties with secondary fees

growing the gmv of these economies and it's going to become much more an economic game I think it's going to be even more lucrative but the players interests and the Publishers interests are going to be the same so just a two points clarification number one I think just want to make sure everybody knows Guild of Guardians is something that you guys have built in house um and so you know that's where that's where you get the proprietary information um and and the second you know which I was actually going to ask you and kind lead into was it doesn't necessarily feel like we're Reinventing gaming with web3 gaming what we're ultimately doing is providing a new gamer experience with ownership in and a new business model for the Dame developers that are building these games

I guess my broader question and you know projecting forward based off where you think the industry is and and the tech timelines and and road maps that we that we see when and I know that it's not the case but you guys have launched you know Partnerships with with the liks of Ubisoft and um a number of other notable uh traditional game developing Partners but when you think this becomes obvious for kind of everybody else in the existing game industry because it definitely feels like the first iteration of gaming was like at first they reject you kind of phase and you know at some stage they're going to fight us and acceptance comes at a later date like what do you think the timelines are and what do you think sort of the the unblocks are to get there I think it's really the first hit

like and and I mean h in the serious sense yeah I mean you know 10 million people buying and trading things an economy within an order of magnitude of what CS:GO is a success story for either that game's players and creators or that game itself from revenue perspective that other people start to to clone and I think we've seen that same shift in every other shift in the distribution of gaming Mobile gaming only took off when people cracked the code of how do you develop gcha games and Mobile monetization in really successful ways and then suddenly you know Zinger and and and these other companies had games that a multiple times over social gaming which leveraged the the sort of social gra of Facebook and networks only took off when you had fungal when you had Mafia wars and then suddenly everyone

cloned these multiple times Mafia wars was literally reskinned 15 times into there was like a salon game for little girls that used the exact same logic under the hood of like your mafia man progressing uh the console games and and freeo playay gaming uh took off when you had these first really successful free-to-play titles initially popularized really by Korea and Japan so it's a game of like kit proves it everyone else is like oh [ __ ] we have to kind of catch up web 3 is interesting in that there's been far more investment in web 3 games than any of these n categories so I think we've kind of accelerated the curve a little bit but it's also extra difficult from a a technology perspective and we do have this branding problem which we've got to

deal with in the west of making a totally invisible like any game you're shipping to the West you got to make sure this is either super Fred Creator like we are for making their money which I think web3 is exceptional l or it's invisible where where you know it's almost too late and they just see the value as they experience play so holding your feet to the fire a little bit um the second part of the question was timing you know what are what are going to be some of the things that you're looking for in terms of you know launch of zkm to the public audience or is it going to be something you know these games that are launching like if you had to put your finger in the air and gas you know when is it that the average web three consumer is like

oh I found a game that I want to play when when do we have this like you know far cast moment that's happening this week like with a with a web3 game um like when do you think that is I am extremely confident like 95% confidence interval this year and I would say like 80% confidence interval by July August in terms of uh the game's going live we'll have roughly 30 live based on our current timelines uh by that time they'll be out of the 260 building on the platform roughly 35 to 40% of them slated to ship this year now some of those will slip if you get 30% let's see 80% of those fail to become hits or 90% of those and that and that is what the numbers are going to be right and then tokens Can Be success I think without even the games being true

long-term sustainable hits which is the interesting sort of DC landscape of of web through gaming but the reality is you only need two or three I think we'll see three to five shits at at least the million Deli active player this year on I I Know M platform on a platform I can't speak for the rest of the industry let let me ask you a little bit about this and just like the changing nature of of of crypto like Mike EO you mentioned at the start like you know there's another three billion dollar airdrop that went to you know probably mostly civil farmers and it feels like we're just kind of like there's one side that's like very tvl and like financialization driven on the other side there's kind of like you know these games where it's like it's not like big you know whales that are doing prer

transactions it's like people logging into a you know a pixels wallet doing whatever a guilded Guardians wallet doing whatever like how do you think this changes the the nature of of like of the industry it's like lower value users that are you know potentially able to convert into these larger digital economies but it's like it's like the growth story kind of if you could tell it a little bit yeah look I actually have nothing against airdrops I I think tokens are the most powerful form of us apposition ever invented um I think it's just what's your return on token spend is it part of a sustainable strategy where there's real net inflows into the product You're Building or is it part of an incentive farming scheme to generate the Optics of metrix in order to pump

token value in order to take that token value and then red the cycle I I I think what I'm more interested in is if a token can represent the future sort of utility or value of an economy how do you get players to join and disintermediate the billions of dollars of mobile ad spend games have to do every year there's billions of dollars spent by top games on G on uh Google ads on on Facebook ads There's an opportunity here to just share the value of this future economy and have people themselves grow it socially and virally uh we we'll be experimenting a lot with this with with Guild of Guardians with a a sort of share to earn system and I think underwritten systems where it is uh sort of uh value or or positive sum

rather than negative sum is is really the fundamental distinction that matters will be incredibly successful and will drive huge amounts of user acquisition did that answer your question Vance I'm not sure if that's yeah I I mean that that is the answer that I think is right I think a lot of things in crypto right now are growing and fragmenting the space in really good ways like seeing all the Boomers buying the ETFs is just like a segment that like is not on crypto Twitter and even seeing just tons of people from the Philippines and India and you know all these emerging countries playing these games it's like I saw the three this morning about the the Boomer that wakes up this morning stoked with that 3.6% games on you know we're we're we're we're broadening Pride of the neighborhood yeah we're Pride of

the neighborhood of the neighborhood baby bring the tent which is like so long overdue and is so good but it's just going to be less about like the crypto Twitter set like you know what you said earlier about like you know we're not here to do more content marketing to 200k crypto Twitter people it's about you know 20 30 40 100 million users like it's so true um but it's just going to look so different and that's that's exciting I think the industry growing up to a certain extent right like at the end of the day CT will rebate I love it I spend so much time in it but it's like the most advanced you know we're talking about bell curve like this is the 99.9th percentile of of qub 3 it's the VCS it's the people who are farming airdrops it's the people who have uh you

know uh self- custodial accounts and use Ledges that is not going to be the majority of the world and that doesn't stop adoption I think it's just different segments what what I was going to say is you know there will be a time also where we shift from TBL as a as a metric of evaluation or you know transactions per second or transactions per month and we actually switch to real users and I know that that's what you guys focus on daily active monthly active user good Revenue well I mean that comes afterwards right but but real people are yeah it it is different like even even as I think about blockchains like I think we all assume that the cost of block space other than like ethal one and Bitcoin

it's going to get driven to zero and so it's like all right what's beyond that is it like these kind of like you know it's the 2% fee plus the royalties plus kind of whatever ecosystem you know incentives that you guys have is it you know I guess maybe we could still live on gas fees but like that doesn't even feel compatible in a world where like you have 100 million monthly active users like the nature of blockchains will change just due to the types of customers they're accommodating I think that's cool I totally agree um what else do we have guys well actually I've got uh a question just like maybe on the more almost like nitty-gritty go to market um you know from your perspective Robbie obviously it's in immutable best

interest if uh the games that are you know building on your platform get a whole bunch of users um but do you like from your perspective would you ever kind of get involved yourself or do you let every game kind of run their own go to market strategy and if you kind of put your thumb on the scale is that an issue from like hey if I help this person with their go to market and I don't help that you know what I'm saying like what what is the go to market for a mutable look like versus you just let the games kind of do their own thing obviously we can't help everyone to the same extent otherwise priority doesn't exist so we try and invest in infrastructure that is going to fundamentally help that's why we talk so much about liquidity fragmentation you know apple and sort of Tim Cook doesn't

personally help every game building on the iOS store but you still make way more money if you deploy a game on that because the product and network value is so high that's I think the core long-term product strategy but absolutely we we H the top tier of gains I I think the the top 50 or so and especially the ones launching this year we will be pointing a ton of help and and value at um obviously with the launch of zkm we'll have a lot of things in store um around making this the the the loudest launch of of web 3 uh and making sure we can sort of helping make the first select games that that launch there so we we have some things behind the scenes here we'll share we also do a lot of help to basically advise on economics on tokenomics on uh their

their goto Market from a even uh how do they get listings Etc all of our IP we've developed from the studio we just share for free with every single game building on the platform um we have a huge part of the success team where we're basically trying to support these games as much as possible but at the end of the day and and this is really important if the game would fail without our help that probably not a great game and and like we we can help people who would succeed Mega succeed and learn how to succeed in web 3 but the idea of making a game that otherwise would not be successful because of the platform itself is is inefficient and it doesn't make sense uh and I think that's incredibly important because these games have to live or die by being successful

good retentive gains and then we can pour sort of you know Fuel and and and gasoline on the successful ones and especially help them with the web fre side I think that's where we can help Web Two incumbent games moving in like the Ubisoft of the world um but otherwise you're you're you're basically throwing uh you know good money after bat which goes to you know the way look at new opportunities as well right from a business development perspective you're evaluating them just as much as they're evaluating you yes just know if a reaches out to immutable we've already looked at your game we've already said this is good enough for us to support so yeah I I guess that's that's we we have a huge internal essentially a BC team at every single game in the market and being like what's the market map you

know how successful do we think these can be and and how can be helpful yeah in in just the closing closing minutes here I would actually be curious uh V like okay I turn over to you for just a second like I am curious it's just been on my mind this week watching this air drop and I I was like scratching my head because it's very difficult to Come Away with a logical reason for why uh some of these recent air jobs would be trading at the value that they're trading and um I it is interesting to me because on the one hand you can look at an air job and be like look at how much money this protocol just spent I mean you know it's sometimes hundreds of millions of of dollars but at the same time it's like would they be where they are without

that and it's not really a cash expense right it's not like they actually raised that money and then gave that money away it like kind of came out of nowhere you know it's in some we don't know where the money came from there's always a cost right and like look I saw this $3 billion doll airdrop where someone tried to sell eight million and it nuked the price 50% so the money is real until it's gone and once it's gone you know price can drive sentiment and and higher valuations but like on the way down it can deflate you like a balloon value doesn't matter value doesn't matter without liquidity right and like you know just from from like an investment perspective on on IMX like H not having a lot of that overhang having

like good investors a corporate structure and a lot of the tokens still on the balance sheet it's like that's just more Firepower for where I think the industry is going and like part of me believes we've explored most of the ways to build blockchains at this point defi you know we know that's going to get big kind of correlated to the price of where the majors go and how they use this money gaming is like this whole other thing where it represents like this totally different future for the industry and I think you know that that's kind of just like where the sustainable value is going to be built like we're we're selfishly trying to turn you know 400 million into four billion like that's our goal um unless you hit a company that's really world changing you can't do that like you're

not doing that on aird drop farming so that that's kind of my perspective um but Michael what do you think I mean all of the above I think um all of these valuations I think are getting you know up for different reasons um and yeah taking it back I mean it it goes back to users and people actually using the application and then Revenue that's generated off of those people you know wanting to pay for things and we have kind of drifted away from that in my mind I think there's some you know obviously highly profitable D5 protocols that exist but you know frankly we haven't seen a consumer application where we have that same characteristic and you know that's our thesis around gaming last thing I'll say is like you

know I think there is a view that were I think very minority that were like at the end of history for crypto where it's like Ethan Bitcoin are just going to become these big macro assets and traded by these big hedge funds and like that's kind of all we need to do I think that's partially true I think there's a lot of momentum there it's going to happen anyways but like there's also this like what if this is still like another 30 40 50y year Trend where we actually bring in tens of millions of users and it changes completely like I'm I'm very much of the opinion that like we're not at the end of history and then it's just going to keep expanding but the super cycle exactly I mean look if you stay in the game it's still a super cycle if you [ __ ] blow

yourself up that's your un fault but I think the key I all up the Dow hack in uh 201 15 or 16 so I I have not sold a single uh token since that it's like like respect to you like you know I feel like they're like we've been at it for for probably 10 11 years at this point at least like holding you know owning crypto doing stuff with it like it the ogs are the ones who are kind of like still delivering and see the future and it's it's cool to see a lot of people kind of get recognition in their due right as everything's about to kind of take into a new form factor just never become the main character trying not to trying not to what do you guys think do you have votes

on who you think main character is for this this next cycle I don't think we're going to have one I I I was thinking about this earlier like the SPF an anomaly was so strange that it would be near impossible to replicate that like the Nick like the Nick whites of Celestia and like you know like those are the founder archetypes that are like riding these huge token weight but like he's not SBF you know he's not with Bill Clinton at the world economic Forum talking about you know how we're going to do all this stuff and a lot of these are more decentralized I think is is the other thing it requires not just this huge thing but also a single person that is less running a a community and and supporting an ecosystem and more just

kind of like they're the celebrity and I think we have even though we have equal successes we have fewer of those yeah I would say no main characters this cycle um there's there's not even main characters in Tech what like Evan Spiegel or like Alex karp or like sella none of those people are like you know Robbie I know you gota jump yeah thanks everyone sorry see robic but but none of those people are like main characters they work for a [ __ ] company that's growing a lot that's what they do they're not on Twitter being like you know let's engage with the unwashed masses every day what about

Elon though he's kind of main character he's the only main character he's the only main character like it's like him Tucker and Trump that literally on my Instagram that may be more of what I search or look at but like it just feels like those are the three on the planet keep keep in mind uh you know Elon just lost $65 billion of compensation so he did he did take a p pretty big out oh I know this is a departure from crypto gaming but what did you what did you guys think about that I so I I looked into it a little bit and I guess the the technical reason so there was a sharehold there was a uh class yeah well it it was initiated by a shareholder who

in uh I think 20156 bought nine shares of Tesla held them uh through this entire period 2018 this compensation package is voted on by the shareholders 80% acceptance rate board obviously votes on it outside Compensation Board member was the one who initiated it um every five billion dollar of market cap in sorry every $50 billion doll of market cap increase that Elon creates uh he gets 1% of the company so basically you know for those that don't know Eline did not start Tesla Elon bought Tesla and because of that he has relative to other founder CEOs a lot less economics in the

company than you would expect he only owns about 12 and a half percent of the company and you know maybe that's a lot maybe that's not a lot but he he has never had very much you know shareholder control because he doesn't own that much of the shares relative and you know the compensation model was long term was five years he he had to increase the value of the company over the next five years and he also has to hold all of those shares for five years become before they become invest before they become invested so it's not like he can just you know get his money and dump on retail and like we're still waiting for another five years 2028 is the first year where he would have access to this you know

compensation all all of this to Vance's point is going to come back there's now a movement uh there's actually going to be a shareholder vote to change the state of registration from Delaware to Texas for for Tesla uh which means that if you know they come back to this and say hey we want to relitigate this um I think there would be a new uh new judge uh and new circuit that they'd be looking at I just want to point out to people how bizarre like how um what an outlier Elon is for signing up to a pay package like that like if you've been part of compensation negotiations like most people like will opt so hard for like the sure thing like how many CEOs do you

guys know that would take oh yeah no nothing nothing guaranteed are you kidding me that's also also there are no CEO pay packages in the Fortune 500 that had anything close to a 10-year time Horizon zero every single other CEO is like over the next year here's the stock based comp that you'll get and invest over that year like that's the maximum duration that most of these have and a lot of them are based on uh earnings per share EPS which you could get from buyback he his were based on revenue and production targets it was like unable Eid do margins but yes EA do margins too okay but I mean those are

pretty good representations of the company right like that's actual growth you have to deliver yeah I thought it was just now that the I guess the Devil's Advocate side of this is that what this Delaware Court found is that he didn't have an independent board right like kimbo's on there his brother and there were a lot of close relationship just Steve Json the the long it felt coordinated that plus the Wall Street Journal drugs article plus the like you know just the Long Knives every once in a while come out for these different characters that this is my broad Point Elon is the main character right now and he took intermediate L but I think he'll get it back dude having him as the world's richest person or whatever he is

now is like the most bullish [ __ ] thing like we we need people to lead from the front with principal with resources it's it's great here here's an example I was at dinner last night and I was sitting next to this guy who I met for the first time and I asked him what he did he goes oh I have two jobs I was like okay I need to know more and he goes well I spent the last nine years at Tesla and I've been a software engineer working on AI and and have a bunch of different roles there um but you know I really wanted to work on Twitter as well as soon as Elon bought it because I really didn't want that company to die and so I've been doing my job at Tesla and a new job at Twitter in the meantime

like imagine the leader who can command people like that we obviously capable and and you know 10xs engineer level caliber to work 20 hours a day over 16 hours a day whatever it is it's pretty insane what a goat yeah anyway all right guys this was uh any anything else you want to cover this was a fun one I'm glad can bring Robbie on thanks BR hi friends talk soon see you bye hey everyone Mike here if you're a bell curve listener you know that transferring assets across chains can be a massive pain I certainly do I complain about it on this program all the time that is why we are incredibly excited to have teamed up with the Wormhole Foundation the stewards of the Wormhole protocol and the coolest part

about this particular partnership is that they have made custom bell curve nfts which you can get and mint for free click the link at the bottom of this episode take you get your free [Music] nft