Coinbase's End Game: Keep it BASEd | Roundup

Transcript

before we jump into this episode quick reminder that everything said on bell curve is a meme and nothing said on bell curve is financial advice enjoy the app all right guys welcome back to another bell curve Roundup you got Michael's one and two piano and dance fellas welcome back what's happening good to see you guys good good week huh I feel like it's a good good week for crypto I had a good week what what happened in crypto right now Ryan Carson left nft so we're back oh he's out nice now he can resume the bump yeah yeah I like that we finally got evidence this

week that you should invest in bald CEOs that's that's my big takeaway from this week well I've been I've been saying this for a while but all this undefeated bald is undefeated it's like the have you ever seen the the Curb Your Enthusiasm with the uh the attractive voice but this is the unattractive wife same thing fagaya's hair is just too vain for me personally give me give me a bald man that guy's got work basically short framework is the uh is that I was about to say I think what happened we're quadruple threats we're hair body face and eyebrow guys so your eyebrow about it I mean you not right if you do the one up to one down I don't give all that and carry up

and down oh wow look at that eyebrow control all right this is this is uh all right let's just let's actually get into it let's talk about we gotta talk about coinbase because they had a they had a big week do you guys want to do earnings or uh base the L2 chain purse let's do bass yeah cool all right yeah you want to give us the you actually did the interview with Jesse you want to give us yeah sure I can give a little overview so basically this week coinbase launched their own L2 um it's called base it's built on the op sack which is different than being built on optimism so the op stack is open source code that powers optimism um the backstory the like little backstories that they met the optimism team while optimism was uh working on the EIP they were contributing to

eip4844 um met the team really like them coinbase is now joining as the second core Dev team working on the op uh op stack and they're also going to contribute uh some of the sequencer Revenue to like fun public goods including uh contributing to the op stack from a competition lens uh bases my understanding is that they're competing with all the other l2s like they're competing with optimism and other l2s right now eventually they see everything being interoperable integrating together but not yet which is like kind of a funny thing because optimism is helping coinbase get this off the ground but also competing with them so but you know crypto so um if permissionless from day one it's in

testnet right now may not come soon they're also launching this ecosystem fund to incentivize development um from a business model perspective it seems like the business model is these here um but that's something I definitely want to talk about with you guys they're not enabling Mev right now so basically transactions are just going to be handled in the way uh in the order that they come into the sequencer and on the note of the sequencer I think coinbase right now is the only sequencer but eventually they're going to decentralize the block building which will or should open up Mev um I think that's about it oh and there's no token which is from a regulatory perspective no token no Mev seems probably like a smart move so

and and there's some agreement between uh coinbase and optimism for them to pay like so I think it was 20 in like an earlier version of the website but now it's like some arbitrary percent for you their sequencer and that seems to be the optimism business model going forward is a million different app chains and they all use the sequencer like we'll see if that works we're also investors in optimism so yeah for biased here but I tweeted this but it does feel like the appjain narrative is starting to play out on eth which is cool yeah what what do your guys like kind of take around obviously this created a lot of like energy they they it kind of leaked a little bit before uh you know

they did their like those that little blue orb or whatever and I mean a lot of people guests ever everyone on Twitter leaked it I thought there was a league I think coinbase was like let's look like a blood yeah and get people out yeah yeah but um like how do you guys contextualize this like do you think it's a really big deal uh like coinbase has I think 108 million users is the figure they gave at their earnings so could be a huge you know push to get people kind of on chain but like kind of help contextualize like how big of a deal is this like how good is it for coinbase Game Changer I think I think this will be one of the biggest product launches of the year I think bringing crypto to 110 million registered users on coinbase evm equivalents gasless transactions all the

coinbase apis account abstraction from day one native bridging professional RPC nodes from day one like you're basically bringing a hundred plus million users into L2 and like crypto native land I think it's a huge Tale so I think yeah you just touched on the two points that I think are the most important the number one is account abstraction where you're gonna be able to have an account or an app or some interaction where the app is actually paying your gas fees and that I think has been actually like it's really rudimentary to think about but like that's been the number one impedive into growth from a user perspective it's just like every single time you go into an app and you have to like charge somebody to actually use the app it's just so counterintuitive to how the the native

internet works and so the ability to have account abstraction out of the date with 100 million you know registered users that's massive the second is the the native integration being able to actually like have an entity sign Financial contracts or any sort of legal agreements on one end and then put a token on the other end and have that be the native bridging is a massive deal one of the Theses that you know I I personally have been thinking about a lot and we're starting to see a little bit of like the tea leaves as they start to form up but like real world assets on chain real world assets and D5 I think is one of the major Theses that we can point to in 2023 to be like okay this is going to be like one of the major themes of the future of D5

but the biggest issue is being able to have like Authority and authenticity of real world assets being put on shape you know what if you want to put you know some collateral that exists in a legal contract in the real world who's going to be the Orbiter of that who's going to have the legal contract who's going to be able to like verify that that's real um this would be the application layer that enables that and yeah I mean those are the two big things that I think about what I what I think about coinbase and base the the other thing is just like I don't think that people are going to actually understand how big of a video this is until like a year or two from now and it's gonna be one of those like oh wow this day launched and nobody really gets

it nobody understands it but eventually everyone should be like oh wow that was a massive deal but only retrospect not right now the the agree with everything Michael said the two unique takes I think I have on this are the more that people have Roll-Ups that don't have tokens the more everyone else is going to get questioned and pushed on why they have a token if you have things like eigen Lair and if you have things like bass which are both demonstrating how to create Roll-Ups data availability layers Bridges Oracle networks without a token I think there's going to be a real question as to like what the value prop of a token for something like arbitrary optimism is so that's one unique take I have I think the other is

it's super cool they're gonna onboard a ton of people it's going to be really great and then there's going to be a moment where the inmates take over the mental Asylum and there's like ohm forks and dog coins I'm like all sorts of crazy stuff happening and that's going to be a moment where I think the probably Regulators or powers of beer like what the hell is going on on this chain that you created coinbase and that's going to be hard to answer in some context but in other context there is no security here there is no token there is no expectation of profit it is just an ecosystem that's running on open source software that's built on ethereum and yes you can decentralize the sequencer but it's going to be really hard for Regulators to really press on this in a way that that is Meaningful I think that

might be part of the coinbase strategy here is like look we just built this like this is open source technology people can do with it what they want but fundamentally whatever happens on the chain is really not our fault so one question that I have is like how do you guys break down what's the business opportunity here obviously they didn't talk about you know there's no totian there's no you know ability to like invest in base right now but the way that you would assume that coinbase would make money is that they're going to be a set of validators for this ecosystem and there can be the ones who are earning some form of you know payment I think right now at least in the Far East maybe maybe there's other forms of primitive actually like what do you think the ultimate business model is here for

coinbase and launching base I have three business model ideas for for coinbase here one is that um so so if you look at so binance did 1.2 million in fees yesterday the the BNB or binance chain whatever you want to call it roughly the same doing like roughly the same volume as arbitrum in terms of transaction scale that's 500 million dollars a year that they're generating in Revenue in a down market and I think that there's no reason that the base chain can't do something similar just with on-chain fees so I think like right now you look at like L2 l2s are making like 100 million a year on sequencer fees in a bear Market with let's call it a

couple hundred thousand users I think optimism maybe is less than that like 20 million a year or 30 million a year arbitrim is probably closer to 50 million 100 million a year so I think like that that's one model is fees um the next model is I think coinbase now with this will it puts them in the lead to win the real world asset battle so right now coinbase I think coin I think devs or anyone building like real world asset stuff will basically be able to log you like Leverage all the kyc data for white listing of real world assets plus coinbase can offer uh like on-ramping and like direct on-ramping to the chain from coinbase which is super lucrative so I think it basically just

like it makes putting Securities on chain 100 times easier because you can like determine how much kyc and how much you want to pull in from like the centralized coinbase so that that's like I don't know exactly how that'll work but I would have got to imagine this like this puts them in the lead for real world asset stuff and then I think the third is um just staking and like CBE I think I think at the start coinbase is going to make these like small ux decisions that push CBE on on base and then eventually I think you could see like CBE becoming the the gas token of of Base so trying to make cve the the like de facto LSD uh would be the third business model I I agree with all those I would add one

more which is their wallet I think is going to be integral to this play Leyden they like think about it they decided to play at the layer two level not a layer 3 level right there's like a roll app architecture that people are building on Bedrock they decided to go level two roll out did you say yeah roll up I like that that's Google app yeah um huh I did not yeah that that I did not I'll take credit for it like sure yeah why not but uh no the roll app so I I um I think one of the things that coinbase has been people have been kind of sleeping on is this this wallet right like honestly like you guys said it like crypto still has a metabast problem in general like I've used the coinbase wallet like it's pretty nice like if you

got if you suddenly onboarded how many active users does metamask have six million people coinbase has 108 million users if they converted even 20 of that they've got three times the amount of users of metamask and I actually think it's it's a pretty kind of a brave business move honestly like you could the the bread and butter of coinbase is still transaction based I'm sure what you could look at is this could be cannibalizing to that like the obvious Revenue source is like in in wallet swaps right from like the coinbase wallet which you could look at as kind of cannibalizing the the Golden Goose but I think it's like they sense that that's where the market is kind of going and could be huge um you know it's basically you're you can kind of it's

what Jason said like you can kind of push people in the UI ux and make CB the the coinbase wallet kind of the Native wallet of this ecosystem that they're pushing all of these people into and they could kind of take down metamask there um it also like Vince you kind of brought up this idea of the app chain thesis like one question that I have is like and I think it's still undecided is how fat are is the exchange layer going to be as an application layer because right now like they've bundled a whole bunch of things together they've got you know custody they act as a brokerage they act as an exchange they do all of these things and it it it's yet like TBD on how like that's going to get bundled out right and like broken up and there is a world where like coinbase acts as

like a thinner layer kind of in the future like a thin app layer on top of a whole bunch of D5 protocols um and they're kind of the aggregator distribution layer and they abstract away a lot of the complexities of interacting with D5 I think it's just I'm like very very interested to see how that all evolves I I think there will be two yeah go ahead go ahead so some aspects of D5 they will like spot trading most aspects of D5 lending derivatives Insurance not gonna be able to touch too dicey from a regulatory perspective but I I see your point they're going to build their own so they're launching like teams to go build um apps as well on base so like there's

gonna be just Builders who go build on base but they're also going to build on base as well so I could see like right now in their wallet I think they integrate like if you own a swap I think it probably integrates with like Paris swap or matcha or something like that I think you could eventually see them like if you think about any other business in the world if that was the case you do that you integrate and make it as easy as possible and then you start climbing down the stack and you want to go lower more on the stack so If This Were another business like the inevitable thing seems like they do that they get the users then they start eating away and shipping and going lower and lower on the stack so you can see them building like a hair swap competitor

right it's usually really interesting the the comparison that you had with the BNB chain making whatever how many million 1.2 1.4 billion dollars a day uh having all that out of date to coinbase the valiator set of Base which is really interesting from just like uh what is decentralized what is not decentralized yeah who else is going to be a validator on base there's no token you know there's no like egalitarian way of deciding who's going to be a validator is it going to be like coinbase that besides who else is validated or is just too many points who's the validator in the in this ego system like that point will be an interesting one to see how they Traverse with one validator right do they decentralize it

what is a what is a blockchain if it's just one validator I think that's the but that they all do that like my understanding is that the hardware like everyone wants to decentralize the sequencer set my understanding is that when you do that it increases the the hardware requirements of running one of those things to a point where it's not super feasible today so I think it's on everyone's kind of road map to decentralize that sequence or set but today it's just not super feasible um I do want to like we talked about Mev last episode and I wanna I'm not sure about this but like look at what we talked about Mev is probably going to get extracted at two points in the Meb value chain at the wallet layer right via order flow and then at the Block space layer via block

space auctions you can imagine a world here where coinbase as its own L2 kind of controls or has a lot of influence at the Block space layer right with their right now it's a solo sequencer but eventually they'll they'll still have a role in that and then they've got if a bunch of people start trading on the on their wallet then they they kind of have access to the order flow layer at the top two which is a super unique position in like imperfect analogy but it's almost like Citadel Securities and Robinhood being the same the same player you know which is interesting or later or like Top Shot and flow being the same player yeah yeah true that's a security dude we

don't talk about it it's not as scary that is not a security okay I do think that is relevant here though like if one of the facts around why this could potentially be a security for Dapper is the fact that they spun up their own validators they had all the on and off ramps rafiat wallet perspective they had all the UI components from an interaction with the chain perspective on their wallet like there is going to be a limit as to what coinbase can extract from this chain even if optically but if it goes the direction of like we're extracting meth and we're extracting payment for order flow and we're like building the nfts and we're building the exchanges I don't think that's a Securities violation I

think that's more of like a thin set and like is this a bad Network that you're just privately operating how does this work I mean not to dive to to Dave into it but like there I I would also say like there's not too sharp of a comparison between like flow and and what we're talking about here with with bass uh with flow it was a private blockchain we controlled the payment Network they issued all the different nfts they were the ones they would literally restrict how much you could put in and how much did you pull out of the ecosystem like there were a lot more controls it was very much database but I think you know it is it is time and interesting comparison but you know today's white like the more the more you add on the more you layer on on top of

each other from the same edit date the more there is a question of like egalitarian decentralization but look let's think about like a funny worst case scenario for for bass so like say like Lazarus group somehow like Bridges onto the chain and Stark's three wreaking havoc like what what does coinbase do can they do anything are they responsible are they in charge what do you guys think what are The Regulators what do you mean by wreaking havoc events let's say that Lazarus group steals bunch of money from base or from somewhere else and then Bridges it onto base and there's now this like large slug of dirty money that's interacting with clean retail like how does that play out well not

again that let's say that they build a fort of Abe and they they say okay great like we are now operating our own you know Ave lending markets and every single time it's not you know just like aren't they and like there's some dirty value that's all chain it's like every single time you're interacting the counterparty is Lazarus root I've I've got I've got another one for you as well I'm not I I I'm not sure about the technical capabilities here maybe we can just edit this in after here but there was a great um excerpt uh Alex Thorne in in his podcast he interviewed one of the um uh someone who worked at paxos with finance and he described one of the reasons behind binance's decision to have busd

and actually it was kind of like a risk management liability management thing because people were basically making a whole bunch of different versions of busd and binance is associated with that from a brand standpoint so this is an important concept but you can kind of look at uh things that are issued there's liabilities of Finance in a in a sense not necessarily a legal sense but like a brand sense right so my question to you guys is would you consider this kind of a liability for coinbase at the same time even if it's not again in a strict legal sense of liability like if people if there was like for instance a big exploit or something like that and a bunch of people lost money on coinbase chain

the what the brand move says to do is you want to uh compensate your users right in the same way that like the winklevi stepped in and provided 100 million dollar backstop so again just on like the considerations to have is like you know if this is some open permissionless thing and people like we all know it's gonna happen right people are going to get rugged people are going to do dumb stuff uh you know are those kind of liabilities of coinbase I'd post that open question I I think this is going to be regarded as like a really good decision and then a really bad decision and then like a really good decision it's just gonna be a roller coaster yeah once you start opening up these permissionless chains to people to build on and just you know do whatever they want to do on like

Michael and I both know it can get pretty messy you know and like and like the concept is no one's responsible but if it's called base chain and your name's coinbase that being said like every single time somebody attacked via some application on the Internet it's not like they're calling up systo because it went through Cisco routers like I think there is it oh it makes is an easy target coinbase is an easy target for sure but like I I I do kind of question whether or not like people are going to ascribe a value of everything that's like coinbase versus like apps or built on base and frankly I just don't know like we don't know yet we don't know what that like separation

is going to be I thought like people were calling out the tall light every time they get rocked on ethereum different there was a there was a um a case two years ago with cloudflare do you guys know cloudflare yep where people were suing cloudflare for bad stuff that was happening across the internet and I think specifically it was copyright infringement so like there'd be copyright infringement and someone like Disney would sue cloudflare they're like are things getting copyrighted and like it's going on this website you have to take it down and actually the I think the Supreme Court deemed that cloudflare was not did not have to take that stuff down which I'm trying to draw an analogy to what two world but I mean that's it that's totally fair analogy I I don't

know the details of that situation but like Cloud Fair runs a lot of the internet yeah and uh like a lot of everything is either built with one of their products built with one of their services or like managed by one of them I it once again easy target I think they're public traded or or at least you know the large have NATO after it's sort of like going after the ISP or going after the the CDN for em data that happens to pop up somewhere around the internet it feels like you know you can grasp its straws in that respect but it's not going to be like really who's at fault yeah I I again like just you know I don't think it's in my mind it's less of

a like who is legally liable fault it's more of just a a brand thing and again the chain is called base I think that's the difference you know um and their their company you know so no one's gonna get anywhere by yelling at batalic the individual but like coinbase is an entity that you can sue so oh yeah and they do get sued a lot yeah yeah let's talk about the stock cool yeah um in the sense that like investors had no idea how to Value this news and that the stock was actually down on this news well yes but well let's get that yeah let's get there but uh let's talk about earnings first because they announced earnings this week before this news came out so in terms of Revenue they did 604

million versus 581.2 million uh of expectation uh the way that breaks down is 308 million dollars of consumer trading which is slightly down Q over are quite over a quarter I think nine percent down 182 million uh through interest income so that's basically that partnership that they have with uh USD Circle usdc and then 62.4 came from staking rewards which is basically dead flat and that's actually kind of interesting considering the success of CBE um in terms of kind of profitability uh they reduced there they had a four percent uh quarter over quarter reduction in terms of employee head count that's still up 21 year over year but they're kind of doing what Wall Street wants them to do which is be more

responsible from an operating standpoint uh they had a Q4 loss of 557 million which seems like a lot but it's where they guided uh so I think two reporters ago they basically guided and said we're going to lose between five and 600 million dollars a quarter so this is within kind of you know what they said they were going to do coinbase has 5.5 billion dollars in in cash um so I I can keep I listen to the earnings call it was not wild the only thing that I would add to this is I would say that in the in the earnings call they indicated a change in philosophy so previously they've guided and said hey we are basically going to make hey well the sun is shining like we expect to generate a lot of profits during the bull market and our aim is to break even

during during bear markets or or down cyclical periods they've changed that philosophy they now want to generate profit in uh all conditions all market conditions so that's what most people wants to hear even coinbase moving from growth to value yeah and everyone is going to be able to actually make that pivot but everyone is saying that they're going to do it I I think that's like the trend but Mike and I were talking about this a couple of nights ago they're like they're like holed up in some place and like they've got they're basically surrounded by Regulators by class action lawsuits like staking income probably getting you know to your point get discounted you know there's it's unclear

if that will continue to persist in a world where crackiness from from a retail perspective right in a world where Kraken retail is down uh custodial you know all the money that we pay to keep our cash or to keep our assets different places if they're not a QC that is a big deal Paul Grewal on Twitter is like saying you know we're a QC and like we were yesterday and we will be there you know tomorrow his opinion doesn't really matter we report to the SEC and they're the people who tell us where we can put our eyes like that will also go down so this is a major subject that we should talk about but you'll go Pitt in that and we can talk about it a bit like this QC thing that came out of the SEC last week I believe is is like a major major topic

but we can pause QC income down trading income down um like coinbase is definitely the stalwart of of the U.S movement especially the institutional movement for crypto but like I follow DJ and Spartan I see him behind coin at the 35 and 40. I don't necessarily think it's it's uh it definitely has a lot of hair on it it's how I would put it [Music] it feels like every single business that they have is coming after it is getting like chased after by Regulators by people by competitors whatever it may be I mean the cracking stuff I think is Big that could have ramifications it's

similar logic about the same logic everything everything is vast and circumstances CBE should be in the crosshairs from a regulatory action in the same way that Kraken was but so to talk about it now uh the SEC put out comments um basically describing what their proposed change to what a qualified custodian is and this is a rule change that would literally change the or be I think a different interpretation of the advisors act basically the the tldr is we are framework is in Ria with the SEC which means that we have a duty of care to be able to keep all of our funds assets at

a qualified custodian qualified custodians you know historically have been you know Anchorage uh coinbase Prime there's a number of others um you know that we've worked with or or that provide the same service the reason why you can have it both like to study is because they have I believe a trust uh um Charter that allows them to be you know or followed by custodian via their trust relationship what the the proposed rule will change is basically that being an available option for being a qualified custodian which would effectively like change the way that they're looking at subscription revenue or or the way that they're looking at you know their Prime offering for institutions and I think

that that you know is one of the business lines that's actually been growing and actually been shining and you know it feels like there's just so many different angles that every single time they try to move in One Direction or try to be able to like build the base and build build a strong business there's getting shut down left right and Center there's the additional nuances so there's there's kind of like two ways to become a QC right now there's a state Charter or a state trust which is what coinbase has and then there's a federal Charter which is what Anchorage has and then everyone else who basically is a QC or claims to be a QC in the U.S has one of these State trusts or Charters and the only reason why Anchorage has the federal Charters because you know the OG Brian Brooks gave them that on his way

out as the interim OCC chair and so you know there's there's changes to this rule there's also Rumblings that like you know maybe coinbase or Anchorage could you know both get their Charters pulled in some way shape or form and then it's like where does framework keep our assets like bny melon is one option like they're not going to take the stuff that we have like we just have so many different types of tokens like there's just yeah that no feasible way that we could put it there and what what would you actually do there we're we're trying to figure this out like and it's the same with every other firm and you know it's uh like the one thing you can do is basically uh you know write a letter explaining why uh you know you're doing your duty of

care for your assets and why this is representative of a qualified custodian even though it might not technically be one the fact is you're still probably in violation of SEC rules this is this is not up to coinbase decide this is up to the fund managers work at the SEC who are going to get dinged whenever they're having assets that are in non-compliant places and Firebox isn't compliant you know like all of these Solutions targeted at us which is the the weird part so this is basically just gonna end up creating like some sort of Monopoly around custodial Services where The Regulators are gonna King make a couple of custody folks right they've already been hungry yeah well they've already been he made which is coinbase because they have a trust uh Anchorage because they have an

AFL trust bmy melon if you have Bitcoin and like other Banks if you have Bitcoin only but what they're trying to do now is take all the ones that were previously Keen made and say nope those don't actually qualify there is going to be like kind of a stuck between a rock and a hard place if this goes through but you know who is Canon fodder in this process subscription Revenue at coinbase yeah and and institutions that are trying to get into anything other than like Bitcoin or eth like yeah maybe they can stuff that into being why melon come up with some bespoke arrangement also I think fireblocks is the back end for bny melon which is like kind of because that's like also not a proper custody solution

it's just shitty because like we feel like we're trying to do our jobs uh and Meanwhile we're being forced to solutions that are either higher cost or lower security is there any decentralized like crypto native MPC solution out there oh there's tons but they're they're not they don't satisfy the SEC you know circulation native decentralized MPC solution is not a qualified custodian so rolled out just by default yeah it's uh you know it's interesting because I mean look at that like the whole point of the SEC right and this is frankly like what they should be doing right is to protect like your grandma from you know swindlers who say hey like invest 500 in this like the whole reason why hedge

funds and rias are regulated in a totally different way is like the thinking the philosophy and thinking goes like if you have a bunch of money and these are reportedly you know very sophisticated investors we don't have to be as Hands-On and help and like if you lose your money well it's kind of tough and there's a bit of like a systemic thing where they don't want you know you uh you know part of the reason they stipulated qualified custodian is they don't want uh you know big systemic parts of the market to fall out but it's hot I I don't I don't know if they've put out you know an official like why they're proposing to do this or like what the reason is behind it but it's hard to see any other reason other than just choke off Capital to crypto make it

more difficult for people that want to invest to invest you know I mean love too serious it's under the guise of okay SBF just ran away with how many billions of of you know customer funds you know they're trying to send that from happening again and of course everything is thrown you know the baby is thrown out with bath water here but like that's the reasoning yeah we'll find a way to make it work because like you know this is our job the institutions like picture of 29 year old Analyst at like Apollo who's like trying to pitch crypto to a bunch of really old guys and it's like yeah we can do this it might make money very passionate about it and they're like where do we put it

it's like oh yeah that would make the firm in violation of SEC custody rules it's like absolutely not Chop yeah you know it is what it is you know the the thing that we started talking about here originally was okay this is one of the business lies that's been growing this is one of the big opportunities for coinbase if this proposed rule goes in does it change the outlook for coinbase just based on the fact that you know this institutional Prime product that they have and and trading is one of the products within Prime uh custody is obviously another one um you know does it change either the opportunity from a growth perspective or just like the margin that they have you know the other the other thing too is like

if they have to go off and cheat this in a different location or have to do this in a different way or if they have to have the different insurance provider does that actually change the business model that they have where instead of charging 15 20 bibs on you know whenever assets are being held within Prime do they have to charge 50 now because like their cost structure has changed like there there are a lot of different yeah perspectives that select what could happen to the business but this has been one of the shiny lights I would say within coinbase and uh the the reason you know to your point Michael why this is so important is the general thinking on Wall Street is you know we've seen this play out before fees especially in kind of a

brokerage model is is a race to zero so even though coinbase is generating quite a bit of money from from their fees today their transaction Revenue which is for those of you who are following Along on video can kind of see up here uh the thinking is that that that's eventually going to go away and that's why there's so much emphasis on this bucket here the subscription and services Revenue which is blockchain rewards which is basically staking custodial fee Revenue interesting comment this kind of other which I guess is like earn and uh their coinbase one subscription product and honestly like just because we're we've been so nice to coinbase here like you know this interest income is kind of a dubious grouping frankly within this bucket because you know I don't think interest

income related that's not that's definitely not a subscription type product and uh it was a good hedge like it's a good business decision like their Center Consortium circles paying off but I you know that shouldn't be getting a subscription type multiple I don't think but and that's enter to your point that's the challenge basically they've got big headwinds in this this Revenue bucket here yeah I mean if things get bullish again they're gonna get they're gonna be making so much money and everyone's yeah throwing a dime so it is a little bit of feast or famine but to Brian's point now he's like an all-weather stock so kind of expect a little bit more well Chase Jason made this joke in the at the opening here but like it is you

know I I actually just can't wait for the next earnings call and listening to the questions that these Equity analysts have about it just just also go and take a look you can you can go see the equity analysts that like cover uh that cover coinbase these guys have a decent understanding of uh you know what a brokerage model is or an exchange model but as far as crypto like they have no idea how to Value base and by the way like they this is a little bit of I talked to uh one of the analysts who works like a big bulge bracket and they were you know they all kind of speak to each other and the thing that they were excited about was um the nft the reason why the analysts were bullish on coinbase for a while was their nft backlog do you

remember when they had like two million people or whatever signed up and uh yeah and that was that was what all the bankers were talking to each other about they were like ooh that sign up like foolish foolish coinbase so I just I didn't I just wouldn't listen you know they're just not in the weeds enough to you know how old are these people you can look it up probably average age of yeah 45.50 there's not yeah that's not gonna work um let's talk lsds all this tease lsts um what do we what are we picking to liquid saving tokens but wait we talked about this always has the LST is not a derivative here so I had this conversation with a company who

I won't name but it's this Asian company that has a bunch of eth and thunder or C5 company uh not gonna say but you know they it's one or the other okay um narrow it down for you but they were like yeah we have like billions of Ethan we're starting our own liquid stake uh token I was like interesting like you're just you're just gonna start it and they're like yeah it's an easy way to make money like we have a lot of Youth just sitting there like we're gonna go off do different things with it so many people are going to do this where this is like another thing that I saw last week was uh somebody forked rocket pools code I forget what the name

of the project was they got a bunch of on Twitter they made the GitHub repo private in response but their whole plan is basically like clone uh this LSD uh make you know people deposit into it give them tokens to do so and then that's going to be their business model the last time I saw this happen this copy paste clone stuff was like during D5 Summer with the amms whenever you see people starting to copy paste stuff that's a very strong signal that something's happening in the market and here's why the lowest effort to make the most amount of money is where most of the capital will Trend and and that is going to be a theme I think for for a while and and yearns LST basket is

playing right into this which I think is pretty interesting um so that's uh by the way I want to bookmark this because that exact Viewpoint I want to recycle for some of these new stable coins that are that are being issued but I want to get your I want to get your perspective on uh like let's just talk about the urine urine Basket in general so um could you could you guys give a kind of an overview for for sort of the uninitiating on how the the vaults work um and then I think we've already kind of talked about like staking derivatives and like who some of the big players are on the show so I'm not really sure that it makes a lot of sense to go into detailed air but basically long and short of it is that uh this urine vault is kind of offering basket exposure to a

whole bunch of different uh lsds so could you guys like just go into the the merits of that or like why that might not make sense so let's imagine uh that there are a hundred LST projects you know everyone has decided that copy paste clone LST projects is like the way to make money all of these projects have tokens all of these projects are willing to incentivize people uh adding Heath to their vaults with tokens they're willing to incentivize more liquidity for their lsts um so on and so forth who is going to benefit from this it's going to be people like yearn that are basically saying all right we're going to aggregate all the lsts we are going to make sure that they have price parity

with one another we're going to get them distribution and in return you're going to give all the tokens you're planning on Distributing to people to us uh Us in two senses Us in the sense of you know just a pure LST into this yeast protocol and and we'll we'll distribute the tokens and also tokens will go back to Wi-Fi holders like the Wi-Fi model really worked well when there was like a ton of different stable coins in defy summer and people were like trying to get leveraged and trying to get borrow and trying to get price parity for their stable coin once that kind of once the market really Consolidated urine was one of the main people who just kind of you know had a negative impact from that but like the explosion of the many different

types of lsds is exactly when there was like 100 different types of stable comments and people will being willing to pay tokens just to get their stablecoin into consideration so I think it's like a really interesting move and they also have a bunch of curb and ve curve which they can vote to increase curve emissions which is another source of yield for them like this is this is happening in my mind like the the LST summer whatever you want to call it but this is going to be a trend do not disagree with LST summer um one thing that I will say though is that the other thing that happened when everybody started to copy pasta uh everybody else's code base is that we got absolutely blown up in certain situations like I don't know if you remember bands but like yam and yeah I

was about to say yeah we met her off by like 18 orders from attitude in the math sorry like that there were there were 18 zeros extra attitude sub calculation I remember it on ether scan just like running over the bar it was like the whole stream but you know like the the problem that you're going to run into is like okay sure like there's gonna be a basket of uh products if you yield there's gonna be a basket that yeah maybe like you're farming whatever the native token is of that one specific LST and like that's giving you additional yield but if that doesn't have any value like there's no way to be a linear effect and there's going going to be a different model here which is it kind of goes back to like what is the top one two maybe three different lsds and like

there is going to be a consolidation of that when everybody starts to realize okay like the inflationary awards that are put off out by like the 20th LST like we're farming those we're dumping those but like it's only going to last for so long uh until you just have some differentiated Edge maybe but unless you can get into that top one two three it's gonna be really like hard to say that the value is not going to eventually aggregate around whoever is Top Dog totally that's like a 2024 question though we're gonna do like the just like craziness of of something like defy summer because when you have this and then you have eigenlayer which is just like a more combinatorial forms of yield people are going to be

putting their eth in such strange places and some of them will never get it back but there's gonna be this like fervor around the speculative nature of these lsts you know one of the things that this uh reminds me of just this psychological urge that you're talking about Vance is uh I heard some quote a little while ago is like it's about Amazon it was like more money has been lost chasing the next Amazon if they had just basically was like just invest in Amazon don't try to chase the next Amazon but it's this thing that it's an urge that like a lot of people have when they're when they're sort of new to something right like we've like joked about it like first bags but like the reason I kind of get it is like when I first came like I had a similar psychological reaction to

everyone else like I was watching Bitcoin go from like three to twenty I was like I've already missed that so like what's the next thing that I can buy that's gonna do that it's a and it said it was very it was cheap Bitcoin which was Litecoin yeah no that was literally it and I was like oh it's faster like yeah and you know it's just I've seen that reaction replicated across so many people and listen you can tell people they won't listen it's nothing audience either it's music you know you don't want to listen to someone popular you want to find your own thing oh it's like it's like everything there's a market for being new but with Finance it's it's different because I think the primary Market that you're trying to

serve is people are trying to make it they're like you know it's I I can't make it with Lido you know I can't make it with rocket pool like those will take 10 years I need to make it in one year how can I get there it's like well you need to stake your teeth in some strange place so it might not get it back what I was actually going to say is with this is like one of the biggest pitfalls that I think we're gonna start to see a lot more of inventor Capital which is that everybody just goes off and finds the nest thing because it's valued at like 20 30 40 50 million dollars when when you know like they're doing around versus actually betting on the number one and the the industry leader which maybe that like a billion but at the

same time because of the market leader because the number one they're going to actually have the Venture scale outcome versus you know the other one who's hasn't even lost yet and because they have a similar model but like they're 20 times less expensive you know that's going to be the best opportunity I I think you're gonna start to see a lot of this in the Venture world where people are taking shots at whoever is the market leader because it used to be that you should be in the top five you'd be in the top seven maybe even top ten and still have like a venture outcome but what we're going to start to see is that it's going to be top one maybe two that had the Venture outcome opportunities yeah power loss power loss so basically to just to get your like kind of

summation about this not super bullish on these like Vault you know broad index exposure you know thing to lsts because no who are the winners uh when the dust clears probably the biggest ones still continue to win yeah in general just because it's like D5 summer what brought stable coins on chain yeah that was the only thing that made that happen um this is is going to be the same thing where eth is going to leave the centralized exchanges ether is going to be bought by people who want to get this like weird combinatorial yield but other than that there's probably going to be a market for like a super aggressive like almost magic internet money style like Daniel SD's Playbook and I think we're just

like seeing that with frax but like there's not a ton of spots for people I I think it really depends on the time Horizon we're talking about over the next 12 months I I truly believe that we could see LSD summer and there's just gonna be so much tension brought into stating as soon as Shanghai goes in and like de-risking that there should be institutional stating options there's gonna be like hedge fund products around stating that all of that becomes a massive opportunity but like let's be serious over the next two to three years it's probably gonna be something that Aggregates back to the winners yeah I think that's fair the other the other summer Trend maybe not summer maybe fall maybe winter I don't know but the other one that I I think is like really

interesting and I was just messing around with this last last couple weeks and I'm not sure how I feel about blur but like I can go on blur right now and buy like one to two to three percent of an nft collection and I can also sell one to two to three percent of an nft collection and that fundamentally changes at least how I think about nfts because the last thing that I want is to buy an asset that tracks eth where there's just no liquidity where like you buy it and then like the liquidity portal closes behind you and you're waiting for like South bees or someone to like auction off your collection that'll block sale like if you can trade nfts like coins and you know you see blur having a lot of the liquidity you see things like nftx which

have like your ability to fractionalize and sell and borrow against things like it feels like slowly the pieces of the puzzle for nft five summer or fall or whatever are starting to fall into place like that that is another one that I think is is pretty interesting and the the other interesting part about it is like almost by definition it has to happen on ethyl one all the attempts by l2s by side chains by other l1s to create a meaningful nft Market have totally failed like nine of the 10 nft projects on polygon are actually fishing scams right now but why is that uh probably something about the user base that's there yeah and like people's desire to prey on them which is like the

ethyl one it feels like a little bit more of a whale and a little bit more of an educated person's game um but like people people think that like okay the l2s are gonna cannibalize all the L1 fees maybe on the D5 side the nft side especially with things like blur that's staying on L1 it's like why couldn't that go to Arboretum or optimism I it could why hasn't it you know it there's something about the eth block space about the provenance of the block space about honestly and I've talked to nft projects and collectors about this they kind of like how expensive the gas fees are it tells them that like okay this isn't moving anywhere like the Milwaukee is secure like if you're

paying a penny for a painting on polygon do you want to hang that in your house like I don't know yeah I actually kind of weirdly get that it actually like blows the liquidity a bit which is like good for collectors markets right yeah yeah um I have a I have a blur specific question for you so I saw this uh this statistic I'm gonna get these number exact numbers right but the kind of order of magnitude is I think roughly directionally correct it was like the average transaction value on openc is something like five for a 750 bucks and blur was like five or six times that so maybe it was around four grand or something like that and you know that was being touted as like a good a good thing right like obviously that factors

into the way that they generate Revenue right average transaction value volume the question that I had though like just trying to like put a narrative around that or like think why that might be is it seems like there's kind of like you know that hot ball of money that CMS talks about like that's roughly my mental model for like how nfts work right now there's just this like kind of hot ball of money in nft land that is like these whales or people who get in early or connected and they're kind of just rotating and it seems like that's what blur kind of won right like they took that that group of people and my question to you is like is that hey do you agree with that narrative and B is that a good thing is that the customer base that they want to build their

business on uh uh like blur has its own problems for sure like 500 Traders make up about 60 70 of volume you know they're incentivizing the out of liquidity with so many tokens and there's 300 million dollars of tokens that are hitting the market I I guess when the next season launches and March 15th so we'll see how how liquid the bids on these nfts are fundamentally um but it almost feels like they've cultivated this group of like nft market makers that didn't exist before who are willing to take directional risk on nfts and like prior to this the only way that I've heard of Market making nfts is basically setting like an automated

program where uh if somebody fat finger sells a crypto Punk below the floor you buy it relisted at the floor and then hope someone you know picks it up like if you can actually make a liquid market for these things and they become more of like the altcoin with picture thesis that totally changes the Dynamics of of the nft market um and it'll kill some categories of nfts like it'll probably kill like the profile picture ones um but it'll probably do wonders for the long tail of nfts as well that are probably less costly less expensive but like it feels like the market that blur won't penetrate are things like fidenzas like that is just so much directional

risk to take on something that literally has no cash flows or or you know quantifiable value and so like it will be uneven like I still think openc and like Sotheby's will come to dominate The Art collector Market but like the pfp market feels less important now and and like games and longer tail nfts feel more important yeah it is it is just funny it's like it kind of it does feel like there's like two markets in nfts there's the altcoin with pictures market and the Sotheby's kind of market and uh you know one thing I feel like I used to hear open C say a lot is there's their strategy as I understood it like that's why they had protection for royalties uh because they wanted to control the Supply right basically of creators they wanted to get

them to list on open seat but I think this is the build really thing like he's like in you know years of funding and building marketplace-based businesses I can definitively tell you that it is better to control the demand side and I I do sort of think a lot of investing arguments in crypto have maybe because of the Bitcoin Heritage have a natural supply side kind of bent to them uh they're like we're going to create something that's really scarce where it's like I think you know if we're doing a scoreboard here for outsized returns like outside of crypto like controlling the demand side is much more important so maybe that's like a way that you could sort of the ERC blur versus that maybe that's how the nft market gets split a little bit

I think I think of it also as like the mashup of those of demand and Supply which is like are you the price Discovery venue uh yeah I think that and what and once you lose like like I like Michael remember when we used to trade before framework uh on bittrex I forgot what is the price Discovery venue and then all of a sudden it wasn't it completely lost relevance like even if you have one percent of the customers of openc if you become the liquidity venue and you know be that through tokens or you know a better programmatic API to trade through like it's going to be difficult for for people who trade nft size to to ever go

back to open seat like look at look at the other side guys I forget who it was two guys sold 10 million dollars of board Apes into the blurbed and the floor didn't move at all yeah like if you own serious amounts of nfts there's only one venue that you can now trade on and we'll see how the token does and how the bids persist but like uh like what if what if instead of crashing blur gets 10 times bigger from a token price perspective now like openc would need to strategically launch a token to to then get back to being the price Discovery venue but I don't think they can right but at a certain point like that burning down fully and you need to like start to put it out

I I mean maybe they can maybe they can I don't know I would just say like they're very much situated in the camp of like Delaware c2rp United States Corporation not going to be able to launch token just like not within the Wheelhouse to like corporate structuring that they put in place to the 2 and of 13 billion dollars so like how do you how do you rate that ship I don't know maybe like the Hail Mary Type move you got to do it you can but it would be pretty disastrous I would imagine do you think open C is in Hail Mary mode with the 13 billion valuation no no no no I've I didn't mean that at all I I meant Advanced uh Advanced prediction of like cop 10x as opposed to like crash on tedx

you know like at that point you kind of have to call it a question like every single sacred cow that you have you know do you do you have to change your entire model I I've got a um or Jason even more questions no just leaning forward and like one last thing I would say is like what would be the retrospective on you to swap versus Sushi swap like if uniswap could do it over would they say that launching the token when they did save them or didn't save them I think it's kind of hard to tell but like sushi swap wasn't just like gonna go away you know that wasn't like a problem that would have solved itself it would have gotten worse not better I think you're right about that I think you're right I would be really

interested to hear like the complete back back room perspective on whether or not launching unity and unit swap token was the right call yeah I think it was really I mean what was the what was the cost to them they got a lot more they got like a six billion dollar market cap token and won the war like kind of whatever the counter factual is like the the ends of Justified the means at this point in my mind I I I understand that but I guess I would say you know raising 112 25 million dollars to go off in a centralized Direction which seems to be putting the uni token at like a lower standard than what they're now focused on

would suggest that they have de-prioritized I think you can see open C follow the same book where they're like we're gonna have the token and we're also going to have a wallet that we monetize have your cake and eat it too depends on how successful it doesn't really matter you know yeah yeah I guess grab my head no no you go the last thought uh I I guess I would wonder whether or not uniswap incorporated or whatever the company is called versus openc incorporate has better chance of going public because that's what you have to be playing for if you put 100 million dollars in something right

I think coinbase is like a public company has been such a Gong Show that like like it's hard to see what the path for them would be like coinbase is like this incredible business with like a bunch of different revenue streams like if you're just selling nfts like I don't know if that clears like the the public market hurdle of like is this a good business especially at this point in time at this point in time hard to say I'm I I mean more like you're just throwing nfts in the way that people think about nfts today not like hey eBay eBay big company just selling collectibles on this Marketplace like if if the next cycle I think we're in the depths of a bear we got to remember Lily yep you're right then like goal nfts are like digital Collectibles and every Big

Brand in the world has launched like boom now you own the marketplace where digital Collectibles trade public company right but my point is whether or not open C without a token or uniswap with a token is going to have a better chance of getting past the SEC to go public that's a good point it's a good it's a good point uh it also is just like there's a weird like internal conflict of interest where it's like which instrument are we concerned about value accruing to that is like I think could be confusing as well but I want to get your guys opinion on um something else because this Dynamic that you're talking about like people piling into the new kind of thing like okay to Jason like we're in a bear

market right now right so lots of companies during a bear Market they kind of converge on what's working right it's like what is working right now like like would say derivatives nft marketplaces and stable coins right so there are like the Fiat collateralized stable coins like tether usdc then there's like kind of a slew of a decentralized stables like there's dye and you can debate about how decentralized that really is but then there's this like new wave of Staples there is go from Ave there's uh shoot there's curve that they've indicated that they're launching their own staple and I've heard of two more that haven't launched but I like I want you guys to tell me why I'm wrong

here like I really don't think that that's a good idea to be honest um and and here's why because in general like if you look at and I don't mean to pick on I mean to pick on anyone here but like go as a as a business model like what they're doing is they're a borrow lend protocol right like they have a bunch of assets on their platform that like may or may not be liabilities depending on how you view the contract kind of nature there but they make money on that spread and then Ave like if you think about it from a capital structure standpoint there's like the customer deposits here and then there's the Ave token that's a backstop right in the case of an exploit right so that's what you have when you're holding the ope token them being like we're just gonna launch

go right and we can give you cheaper cost of capital and all that kind of stuff and it's going to be this new Revenue stream in my mind that's a new liability stream that's an encumbrance on that Ave that Ave token right like that's that's how I kind of view it and the analog that I have is like what's the future of this just each defy protocol has their own stable coin like we had in the wild west where each bank had their own currency and then they all defaulted like you know I I'd not be a doomsayer but like these these protocols could default like it they're super over collateralized and safe now but like it's right there that's what Abe is right it's the backstop and there could

be a spiral there where if your liabilities exceed your Equity that could be bad so I just am I like totally wrong in my framework for thinking about this like I personally would like you're gonna be a stable coin issuer that's like all I want you to do basically you know it's no more risky than die honestly like if you look at the curve construction or the Abe construction it's like all right we're gonna start with ethylateral we're going to Mint this token against it and we're gonna spit incentives into curve pools and use swap to Peg it it's like kind of how dye works it's less Lindy but you know if if it depegs theoretically if it's backed by good collateral it should be something that you know we would buy and and just like ARB the difference out I think what you're seeing is just like

lending protocols I'm looking at Ave right now uh 9.4 million dollars of annualized Revenue I I think like 10 or so flows to the token you know that's just not enough to generate like a multi-billion dollar outcome and maybe in the bear Market it's like five or ten times higher but like still then it's like pretty challenging like you just need to staple on more aspects to your business and if one of your competitors can mint a stable coin for free and you have to draw a usdc off chain to on-chain and then put it in your platform like you're at a disadvantage and so like all of this should be considered as these curve and and of it taking shots at maker and wanting us do you guys remember

um I don't know maybe it was like 2017 2018 when Snapchat came out with stories and then Instagram copied them and then every single platform on the internet had their own stories product LinkedIn remember like everyone was like oh we can do that too oh we can do that like I remember seeing a stories bar across like it was Photoshop obviously but like an Excel file like it does feel a little bit like that where like oh we can do that too like oh cross says nothing does it get us more users maybe we'll find out yeah what once once they start to dabble in like long tail collateral that's when

you know the game has changed and if you want to start shorting the stable coin that's when you start doing that okay so to start with it is it is I uh okay there's an interesting uh so this comes from here let me actually get the link so I can make sure that I'm not spewing fud here but uh this is a like this is a part of a proposal for makers so this is a part of Maker's end game which is the that's the plan from roon Christensen the founder I don't know if you guys can see my screen here um but basically one of the the tenants that's cut those kind of buried that I

didn't notice and I saw someone tweet out about it is that you can now leverage your maker token which is kind of like the equity in the network uh to borrow die um and that that to me is I again I don't mean to be like doomsayer but I mean that's a that's a similar construction to I mean collateralizing the stable coin with the network Equity is what got uh tarot into all that trouble and before then it was Enron that collateralized their loan obligations with and run stock it's like when that unwinds it just happens very quickly so I I think you're right but I want to bring this back to like something haasu said I like two years

ago that when he I first said he first said it I really disagreed with but now I kind of agree you know that saying like you're at the mercy of your stupidest competitor it's like your your competitor is going to do non-economic decisions like you have to respond to position yourself otherwise you're gonna get smoked I used to believe that but now we just watched all the people that made dumb decisions get washed out so aggressively that I do kind of think there's some Merit to making choices that you think are economic or viable or whatever in the long term and not just constantly counter positioning with stuff that also doesn't necessarily make sense see you soon do you have an opinion on that totally it totally understand where you're coming from I I do think that there's a difference in D5

and that it really does depend on the mechanism that you're talking about like do I want to put up my major tokens to be able to draw die against it I could view that as being the exact same proposition as putting up my eth or like blink or any other asset it's just another asset and shirt maker has value and therefore like I want to be able to borrow against it on the flip side they're not on the flip side on an additional point you know there isn't there is a mechanism that has survived two bear markets at this point with the exact same you know description that you're you're cut you're driving here which is synthetics and and word investor in it synthetics has been able to use and you know they're changing the drug economics they're launching V3 they're going to talk there's gonna be a

bunch of people talking about it eat them in a couple weeks but and and moving past this model directly but for the past four years three years they have been using snx the core asset as the collateral backstop for the entire ecosystem and you know it it once again really depends on the collateralization ratio the mechanism for liquidation like how you actually process that and they've run into issues they've solved those issues but like I think it all depends on the details um and yes like there will be people that blow themselves up like Tara and doe but there will also be others that have strong mechanisms and strong mechanisms designed it's also just it depends how big it is

if it's big it could be a big problem like there's 10 billion of maker Stakes against the stable coin Maker's not that liquid either Michael and I both know that like you know you can get really badly hurt if you know you have 10 billion of collateralization and you have five billions of stable coins and like all of a sudden half of your supply is under collateralized it's just like Luna really incentivized this to happen so I don't think that'll happen at maker but this is kind of when you start flirting with the danger zone of you know using your own asset as collateral which can create these destabilizing feedback loops which is not good I don't like it I think it's a horrible idea it's like why do it I think maker struggles maker struggles from the this

like I don't think maker has decided still like what it wants to be and this feels like another step in that direction of like I don't know do you want to be this like super secure platform or do you want to like take risks and like grow at all costs and I I don't yeah I think it has decided what it wants to be they've gone with the end game there was an internal battle between hasu to be like some sort of uh you know he described it like the euro dollar kind of Shadow banking system and then there was a this like end game Phoenix you know scenario where uh you know maker D pegs or at uh the ID pegs as the inevitable thing I mean you know back to you like why do it like if you were if you were to stealing on this

like why would you put major as a total asset yeah I was about to say yeah that every single major employee can use their assets as collateral okay I too would like free leverage all right so you know what it's a funny uh do you guys catch all right I'll actually try to find the link to this proposal but within maker the end game um there was a proposal for maker the Dao to buy rune's Personal stake in light out do you remember yeah that's so epic

that's like I've like pose that you buy my bags like it's only been a minute since I've like seen roon like it had like he feels like a he's in the shadow somewhere I heard him on pod he was sounding kind of wonky remember when he's trying to donate 20 000 maker to uh some like woke cause that is more maker than the protocol has burned in its entire lifetime yeah yeah all right I've got I've got another one for you this is also part of the end game but there's a proposal for uh something called a scientific it's like scientific sustainability so who wants to create a scientific sustainability fund as something to the tune of 20 000

mkr uh if you wanna if you want an understanding of how to run a professional Global uh scale grift look no further than uh you know the ESG business right which is probably the most successful game in town right now and uh there's a whole industry around how to siphon off uh you know investment and funds and Direct close Capital like is you know there are a couple instances of this is is all I'm going to say so yeah not throwing any I don't want to get you into trouble he's a he's a makers oh yeah your dick grip from you bro I like this I like I like this yeah I like this in fact I would like to

propose Ayanna which sustainability fund too yeah from my bags yeah can can you borrow against delegated state or no yeah with with this you could oh yeah I know you can that that is uh wow so a little something for the delegates too that's nice yeah yeah it's almost like you're kicking something to your friends yeah kick which should be a word I mean also if you look at all the delegate go you can look at where the delegates get there maker from most of the big delegates get their Baker from roon so there's this thing inside a maker where like you know you don't want to just vote how roon wants you to vote but like also roon has given you all your money all

your all your voting tokens so this is a little there's a little governance uh inside baseball here probably I'll look you can go see it yeah all this going on I'm not gonna be surprised if if go or curb USD takes a meaningful John cutoff maker you know it'll be an interesting product by the way I don't know if this is possible can you see you should theoretically I don't think so you don't want you want uh you want a stable coin that's been battle tested and like die has been battle tested through like the absolute depths of the bear Market including like flash crash March 2020 they do makers risk team is also phenomenal so yeah that's fair and the steakhouse are great too yeah exactly

infrastructure there so I I I agree that I don't like this but I wouldn't go so far as to be like oh like obvious stable coins gonna like eat a significant chunk out of die I I just when I borrow die I sell it immediately I get usdc yeah that is I did uh I did see two pitches this week for new stable fun projects there are at least neither of them nothing happened we'll we'll see neither of them are decentralized or like really kind of the the same thing that we're talking about here but there is a there is at least some desire to you know move in the direction to find a new stable home

project how you get distribution how you get adoption from ncpc but you have to do something differentiated I I don't think it's going to be like let's just put stories on You Know Abe and curve I I will say uh if we're deciding like taking maker out of the equation and deciding between curve and and uh all they I would put my hat in the curve ring for that just because the power of the gauge and uh I think when it comes to like currency liquidity is kind of the altar that you worship at and it is a little bit of like Amazon you know pushing your own products type deal but to be honest that that strategy works like so I'm that's an interesting stable to watch I would say as well so all right

fellas I think we got our app here this is a fun one though foreign [Music]