Can Gavin Wood's Polkadot 'Make Blockchain Great Again'? - Ep.202

Transcript

[Music] hi everyone and welcome to unchained i'm your host laura shin this week on the show i have a fireside chat i conducted with parody and polka dot founder gavin wood at the polkadot decoded conference last week gavin answered my questions while sipping whiskey which those of you watching the video will see in this episode we discuss what his vision was in creating polka dot what kinds of parent chains he expects will be created there and how he believes polka dot can co-exist with ethereum we also discuss whether defy like composability will ever be possible on polka dot whether dots are a security and parodies history with security lapses and how that could affect polka dots

since all pair chains share security provided by the base layer it was a fun and fascinating conversation and i hope you enjoy it crypto.com the crypto super app that lets you buy earn and spend crypto all in one place earn up to 8.5 percent per year on your btc and more than 20 other coins download the crypto.com app now to find out how much you could be earning 1-inch exchange is dfi's leading dex aggregator that discovers the best trade practices across all dexeds one inch was launched in may 2019 by two white hat hackers at eth global's eth new york hackathon one inch has reached almost seven billion dollars in overall volume in just over a year

hi gavin hi laura nice to see you again likewise all right so let's have a discussion about all things polka dot let's start with a really basic question what is your vision for polka dot when you conceived of it what problems were you trying to solve well there are many sort of answers uh to this question it's um yeah it's an interesting one in many respects it was a very abstract thing that i wanted to do when i started polka dot it was a um really just a push to become more abstract more general over um over what it was that we were solving uh what it was that we were producing so it's like

you know bitcoin started off with a very basic scripting language ethereum sort of introduced this much more um complete means of scripting financial transactions um and really with polkadot it was uh trying to create something that uh produced like an even more general model for how um how how it can be extended um how things can be added um and then on top of that it was really also trying to address this you know fundamental problem of scalability like how do we try and push through more transactions how do we take advantage of the fact that there's an awful lot of workers out there on the network um but uh it's so wasteful to have them all working on the same thing um

so it was it was these twin sort of topics these this generality and and scalability and really the vision was was just to sort of make blockchain great again it's like can we take blockchain to its um you know a step further um can we actually address some of these really important issues that we've always known have existed um you don't you know you can go really quite far back five ten years um and see that people are already thinking well we really need to like you know process different transactions on different nodes we really need to be more general um and it was uh yeah it was really just kind of can we can we bring this forward can we be more general can we process

more transactions on different nodes and when you say the words general and abstract um i'm not really sure what you mean you've also talked about how polka dot is a meta protocol are those concepts related and can you explain what you mean by that yes uh they are they are so meta protocol is um it's like a uh meta means sort of after or beyond and it's generally used to mean like um the next sort of step down uh past this concept so it's like you know um a meta protocol is a protocol that um governs another protocol a protocol on which you can place another protocol it's like um

a protocol of a proto or protocol of protocols um and what i mean by metaprotocol in this sense really is that it's an underlying kind of much more basic much simpler protocol on which we build what we would normally consider to be the protocol so to take an example um the protocol of of bitcoin is well we send blocks around and these blocks when you execute them when you when you interpret the blocks all the transactions in them um there are you know transactions with like some script but basically most of the time it means send these bitcoins to these addresses um and that's that's a protocol we under like

the nodes of the bitcoin network understand how to interpret these blocks right it's language basically um but it's very difficult once you've set that language it's kind of set in stone it's very difficult to to alter it to change it to introduce additional features um to fix bugs um and uh you know it's like it's it's very rigid um a meta protocol would sit underneath that protocol and define that protocol and the nice thing is that because um because it's defined in terms of this meta protocol then you can change it quite easily you just have to obey the rules of the meta protocol and then the

main protocol can can adapt and evolve and iterate over time so then the question is well why is that you know what if you need to adapt evolve and iterate on the meta protocol and the the idea with that is that we make it as simple um and as as abstract as possible we take a pre-existing technology something that has already kind of been iterated through something that very clever people from many different sort of stakeholders have already argued about and sort of come to the decision that this is probably the best thing that does this kind of meta-protocolistic stuff and and what we did was well we chose basically webassembly because webassembly is like

an industry standard it's been iterated on it it's actually the already uh two separate technologies one built by mozilla one built by google has sort of been splunged together into this into this thing web assembly um so it's already got a lot of ideas it's already had a lot of iterations um it's unlikely that we're ever really gonna need to change it and therefore it's it's really good foundation to build our stuff on this meta protocol and then we just have to define everything else in terms of that and that's where the protocol comes in so the real polkadot protocol para chains and governance and balances and dot protocols staking all of this stuff is the polka

dot protocol and that stuff changes over time but it's defined in terms of the meta protocol that doesn't really change over time and that's that's the stuff that we that that we make sure that we've got this like tried and tested um uh very uh uh sort of well understood well-known um um technology in like web assembly so yeah it's it it is a lot about being flexible and abstract because this top level the polka dot protocol is not very abstract i mean it is power chains are pretty good but there's still a very um a very specific way of having different sort of shards there a specific way of scaling

they're a specific way of like having a market mechanism to claim them um so it's it's still like opinionated as we would say there's still a lot of opinions involved in it whereas the web assembly isn't very opinionated at all it's not even our opinion it's someone else's googles and mozilla's and microsoft's and all of their opinions really we just said right well you guys have had time to argue about what whose opinion is best we'll take the answer and use it because we don't want to argue we just want to have something that's stable and that's that's sort of because of that it's it's a more abstract level that we can build things on so there is this like these dual um levels the meta protocol very abstract very general

doesn't change very much and the protocol much more um much more opinionated more specific changes a lot because we don't you know our opinions are always wrong in the fullness of time opinions are always on they always need changing design always needs changing it it iterates over time and we want to allow ourselves to evolve and that's why having these two separate um protocols the meta protocol on the bottom the protocol building on top of it is uh is how we achieve that and it's the same with with um it's the same how we get from bitcoin to ethereum to polka dot um there is this um idea of like well with with bitcoin it wasn't really programmable with ethereum it was kind of programmable but you had this

very limited computation model with gas and dynamic gas pricing and dynamic accounting of resources and limited memory and storage and it was all very expensive um and that all that changes with the computation model in polkadot because we have power chains which are much more abstract much more general um in that they're not just a smart contract an easy little bit of code um that sort of keeps some records of maybe people's balances but rather an entire blockchain that can basically kind of do more or less anything that you can imagine a blockchain to do and that that's a much more abstract thing for and i'll give you a concrete reason why that's an

abstract thing you could easily implement a smart contract inside of a blockchain that already are blockchains that do it edgewear moonbeam a few others um you can't do it the other way around you can't implement a blockchain inside of a smart contract because it's there's just not enough computational power it's like you know you'd be like trying to shove a shoe inside of a you know it doesn't there's there's no you know it's it one can contain the other the other can't contain the one and and that's uh that's why you know it's we can say well look you know polkadot the parachain model

is is more general than the smart contract model now it doesn't mean it's better for all use cases in all circumstances but it does mean that anything that you can do in a smart contract you can do in a in a power chain and but not the other way around there's a lot of things that you can do in a power chain that you really can't or that at least at the very least would be extremely difficult to do in a smart contract and you also have parathas can you define those and differentiate them from the para chains yeah so para chains um as a term it's sort of it's evolved a little bit over time but broadly speaking para chains are these

these slots they're they're like um there's a there's some number of them um and they're a little bit like um compute like computer cores so your computer has a bunch of cores i mean this this one that i'm on i think has four but some of them these days have six or eight or even more um and the cause can process a particular application um at once so if you've got a bunch of windows open um then it might be that one of the cause is doing the video playing in one window another core is helping your web browser render the email in another window and another core is playing your music in the background or whatever so they can do different workloads but basically para chains

are are like this but for a blockchain so they can do that do different workloads one of them might be processing smart contract transactions another might be processing like balance transfers like kind of bitcoin transfer transactions another one might be doing governance another one might be calculating what the optimum staking situation is um so it can do each of these cores each of these para para chains can do different things at any given time and we measure time in terms of blocks so it's like this particular block block number one million four hundred and seventy thousand two hundred and ninety three um is doing this it's doing um it's got a staking power chain it's got a governance power chain it's got a

two or three smart contract power chains and so on um now para threads are when we say right well this application doesn't need to be processing transactions literally every block maybe it only needs to process transactions every 10th block right so instead of it happening every six seconds it's every minute um now that's perfectly reasonable bitcoin doesn't process transactions you know some of the time takes an hour before the transactions go through you know on average should be about 10 minutes um so it's it's not unreasonable to expect that probably one block uh in every 10 is sufficient for quite a lot of use cases so then we say right well rather than

having rather than having this application just constantly always um taking up one of these processing slots even when maybe it doesn't have that many transactions to process um instead what we do is we say right well you don't get any like by default but when you're ready to process some some transactions when you've got a you've got a bunch in your queue and you've i don't know they're important enough for they've been waiting long enough or whatever then um you pay a bit of money but only a little bit and and they get processed you sort of just push them bulk onto the onto the polka dot um sort of network um and you get a block it's like you get in one of these polka dot blocks you get

your block being processed you get your block of transactions um through and he gave an example of how bitcoin only has a block every 10 minutes but what types of projects do you see as wanting like you know to be on a pair of thread as opposed to a pair of chain can you give some examples yeah there's a there's a few so one of them would be an oracle so you can imagine there will be some oracle situations they're feeding in data from the external world now feeding in a load of data every six seconds seems overkill for a lot of a lot i mean you know if you're talking about weather data you don't need to update the weather every six seconds right um maybe maybe once a an hour i don't know once a day um but yeah definitely not every six

seconds um you know 500 raindrops have fallen 493 more raindrops no um so you know we can imagine that actually and with weather it's like you know maybe once an hour months every half hour tops and and it and maybe it doesn't matter whether it's you know literally 30 seconds to the 30 minutes to the dot after the last update maybe it's okay for it to be like 30 31 minutes after the last update you know there's no huge um huge time um deadline and that would be a really good one um for power threads because you know they would just basically have um some amount of of of money of tokens or whatever that they

want to pay in order to get their new block of weather information that update in and uh and then they just you know wait until the block that the chain of polka dot is sufficiently unused underutilized and then their their block will go in a little bit like how transactions work in bitcoin and ethereum right now so you know you've got your um you've got a transaction fee and maybe it sticks around for a block or two or three until a miner picks it up because there aren't enough other transactions that are paying more so very similar in that regard basically just a an adaptive market another use case would be um regional um applications so it could be that there's like um a a u.s centric or a china-centric um

insurance app and it's like look people don't claim their insurance mostly uh at 4am right mostly any any any any that's going down happens at 4am perhaps but the insurance comes a day or two later in daylight hours um and so realistically for these kinds of of regional daylight hour use cases they're gonna have like eight ten hours where it's it's it's people are gonna use it there's gonna be transactions uh but the rest of the day the rest of the 24 hour period um there won't be very much going on and it doesn't make sense therefore to have a power you know have a constantly scheduled parachain um slot um if you know 60

of the time it's not being used no transactions and what about para chains what are the types of para chains that you're envisioning will exist well i mean it's going to be an ecosystem so there's going to be a lot of um a lot of different things all kind of helping each other um to uh to get to like the end use cases something that seems pretty clear is that we can't jump past this stage um the magic of blockchain isn't really in delivering a specific use case really well we've had a lot of time to do that and nothing's really come through one or two minor exceptions but more or

less what where we have seen uh huge uh hugely promising developments is in the emergent effects of being able to combine multiple use cases um that well multiple applications let's say multiple solutions in an environment where they can they can form symbiotic relationships build on top of each other um and provide a composite solution that no one ever really designed but that the nonetheless um you know fulfills some goal so you know you've got the flash loans you've got like the paycheck loans you've seen the defy thing happening at the moment that's

that's kind of where i think um where blockchain is is able to provide like a a good step forward in providing these um trustless environments where people can be very experimental and deploy interesting use cases that are implicitly applications interesting you know bits of code that build upon that form symbiotic relationships with pre-existing bits of code and that allow others to build upon them um so this this is what we call composition it's what we call you know emergent effects and i think uh i think that's really where things are going to go so what what kind of power chains i mean you know there's going to be

power chains that want to specialize in smart contracts and for sure um just because they're an easier way of developing and deploying stuff than a full-blown blockchain though interestingly enough not that much easier i think we're going to see different different blockchains that come with kind of niche [Music] niche applications that they provide plus a smart contract component that allows people to sort of extend those applications so at the moment we have in in chains like ethereum we have a lot of um a lot of smart contracts deployed into them each one fulfilling a particular niche

but none of them have none of them are particularly performant none of them scale well none of them are really utilizing um the computational power of the machines what i think we're going to end up with is having um the smart contract environment primarily used for extent extension like extending the functionality of things but where the the blockchain itself provides um the sort of really bread and butter logic for you know doing flash loans for doing decentralized exchanges um for transferring funds um for governance voting functions this is this i think is gonna migrate to a more fixed part of the blockchain

like like basically what substrate provides to you um and yeah there's the smart contract the sort of fastest fast iteration on the smart contracts where people can develop and deploy very quickly will um will be for more um experimental extent extensible stuff so i think we're going to have a lot of smart a lot of different flavor smart contract chains um doing things you know super diverse stuff um uh we're gonna have oracle change like you're gonna be chains that are very um specialized to just have data pumped into them there'll be chains that actuate stuff i think um so you know slock it i don't know they're not really doing much anymore

but as far as i know sorry if if you are guys they were hired by blockchains llc right yeah um so you know but a good example of an actuator where they're actually you know um the the transactions on a blockchain are having effects in the physical world i think we will see these kinds of um these kinds of things growing you know whether it's i mean maybe it's home automation maybe there's a blockchain that that you know its transactions are like turn my light on turn my light off and the advantage of using a blockchain is you get like an indelible ledger of who told your lights to turn on and off making it sort of more secure making it you know but regardless you know actuation blockchains

may well become a thing i i mean obviously there's things like consortium blockchains uh blockchains that uh powerchains that bring together other um sets of blockchains um we're gonna have bridge chains that allow blockchains to connect paris uh well polkadot then it's parachutes to connect to other networks um yeah i mean there's there's going to be a lot okay well one other thing that i was wondering about parent chains is when i was doing the research for this i was kind of interested to see that they have expiration dates unless they're extended and if they do expire they go through this retirement period and those who contributed to the crowdfunding get their dots back but i just wonder so what happens to the smart contracts and other apps on that

pair chain because like you know on ethereum these programs are usually unstoppable so for instance in oracle and ethereum will always have a price so in the case of these pair chains would people simply not build things on polka dots such as oracles or any other functions that they would expect to exist beyond that time horizon of you know like six months or two years or whatever it is yeah well okay so the retirement is is an interesting um thing so it back i don't know two three years ago um i didn't really have a great answer to this question it was sort of like well if they're useful then they'll just have to pay you know um but yeah uh about a year and a half ago we came up with power threads

i think it was a year and a half ago maybe it was only a year ago um and no it was a europe yeah it's 20 20. yeah a year and a half ago um um power threads um as i mentioned are these like pay-as-you-go pay-as-you-go power chains right so it's like they don't they don't do much unless you sort of fund them um but you only pay for one block at a time so you only need a few transactions that are um willing to you know paying enough that the rest of the polka dot network doesn't desperately want to use all of the power thread slots and to give some like i would expect there will probably be about 53 slots for power threads every six seconds

so i think when the calculations are done it's like for for each pair of threads i get one block in every i don't know 10 minutes then it's like you can have the 3 000 or 10 000 or something um power threads that are kind of mostly active um so it's they're going to be reasonably cheap now the idea is that when your block when your power chain if your power chain is sufficiently unuseful that you know you can't collect together the funds for renewing your slot um and it's not that this happens overnight right you get 18 months in principle you get any an 18-month grace period so you've got one

and a half years to convince people to make your token worth enough that you can swap enough of it for dots to pay for your power chain slot to lease out your power chain slot now uh and you get 18 months to actually secure that next six month period so um you'll you'll know very much ahead of time if this is coming but that said suppose for some reason you just can't scrape together the dots then um you don't just disappear in a puff of smoke um with all of your oracle data or anything your your chain stays active like it it it sticks around um it's there um an oracle would

tend to use passive data transfer which basically means you look at the relay chain to see what the last block was for you for that particular chain and then you get one of the um collaters one of the people who who has the blockchain um and its information to give you a proof um that uh you know hey what was the gold price um most recently and and they'll come back with a proof that we'll use the data on the polka dot relay chain plus some extra witness some extra data and that fits alongside that and you plug them together and you can now be sure that the post of gold according to this power chain was such and such now um this will still work so an oracle chain wouldn't actually stop working now it just means that their updates wouldn't necessarily be

every six seconds it would be as often as um as it's willing to pay for its updates um and that's that's basically how it works it's like you you know when you've had a mobile phone contract and it's like you know you're paying per month and and you're paying like 50 a month and it's like yeah at the beginning it's okay but then it kind of drags on it drags on and you're thinking i'm not actually using this 50 a month subscription that much um it's not that useful to me um so you tell them look i want to cancel my subscription they're like oh yeah well if we can't persuade you not to keep your subscription then i'll tell you what you can keep the number but you'll go on like the pay-as-you-go tariff right so basically um just make sure you put

you know twenty dollars on every six months and you'll you know you'll be fine you will keep your number active you can still receive calls and all that basically it's exactly the same with polkadot if once once your subscription ends if it ends um then you just go directly onto the pay-as-you-go version tariff and you put you you can still keep your chain going you just have to pay per block okay and and um it does do you get finality with each block yes it's the same it's exactly the same technology like 100 okay so one other thing um that i wanted to ask about a lot of people i i solicited questions on twitter and people were curious to know how the

parachain auctions will be run and when you'll have them well interesting question yeah um it's it's really difficult to say because our the auctions of paratrains i don't i don't really want to start the auctions for power chains until pretty solidly sure that we know when the power chains are going to start because as soon as you start the auctions you're taking you know people are locking up their their dots and it's like well you know it might be next week it might be next year that's not a great like you know thing to be locking up your dots on right so um parachain auctions are going to start once we um once we basically have tested power

chains on whichever network they're they're on so you know we've got kosama and polkadot we roll them out to kusama first because polkadot we we don't um push code on that isn't audited externally by our security uh company um so kasama will get the unaudited code that we're still reasonably sure is is okay but you know i know with it so right and just for listeners who aren't sure what kasama is kasama is basically the test network but there's actual real value being staked on it and the token the ksm token has real value so um the incentives are all there and it's like a kind of a true test environment where you can actually see how the incentives will

affect the ecosystem um well but so before you get into all that like do you want to also talk about the candle auctions because i think people would be curious to know about those sure well now basically um the way that the the these auctions work is um is that we we didn't want to so blockchains necessarily are these like super open and transparent things everyone can see what's going on um all the time and what we what we didn't want was to have you know this this this game this this sort of auction game

where i don't know if you ever used ebay i mean i you know i don't know is it used these days or is everyone just using amazon i mean i haven't used it in years but like back back in the you know the early days of web 2 i was i was an avid ebayer um like you know sort of 2005-ish like 2007 that sort of thing and um and what inevitably happened was the last 60 seconds yeah the price would be you know five dollars um slowly climbing up from three dollars like three dollars 43.45 um and it gets to like five dollars and then the last 60 seconds it'd be like 10 15

50 500 it's like okay right so it was a 10 day auction but actually all of the important bids happened in the last minute um now that's that that's a pretty standard kind of game theoretic thing to do you basically hold your best bid for the very last point in the auction um and it's it's kind of rubbish for to do that for a blockchain because it means that you it's not great price discovery people if you hold it for the last minute then it's like it you might not get it in uh miners validators can kind of keep them back you know and and if if a few bad validators happen to have the last few blocks then you know maybe a good price we'll we'll we'll get

um chucked for a bad one um it's it's sort of fraught with with problems um what so what we wanted to do was was find a solution for this it turns out there was already a solution hurrah history has provided us one um so there are these auctions called candle auctions um they're they're names so because they basically the auctioneer had a candle next to them and uh the candle was lit at the beginning of the auction people could could could put bids in there's an open auction so anyone can bid anything anytime as long as it's higher than the previous highest bid um but when the candle goes out then regardless of whether anyone's got any more bids to

add um that that last bid is the bid that wins yeah so it's a really good way of making sure that auctions don't go on forever and that there isn't like a group of people like a cabal of people with much higher bids that are just waiting and waiting and waiting until everyone else has done that thing um now the problem with candle auctions is that you can't put a candle on a blockchain you can't even put like an abstract representation of a candle on a blockchain because you can't end something randomly um very uh uh very easily basically um to end something randomly someone has to know when it's gonna end because someone has to model the account

someone has to like be the the generator for the candle is like is the flame gone out yet and if that someone's to generate it means they've got an advantage so what instead we do is we do this clever thing where we have a retroactive ending so the auction ends at the end of some hour right we time is broken up into hours and at the end of some hour we say the auction's ended but it doesn't literally end at that hour instead it ends at some point in the previous hour so we know it's ended sometime in the last hour but we don't know when yet and then we choose a point randomly in that last hour and that point is when the auction ended which means there have been

possibly other higher bids that have come in since that point because you know at the end of the hour right um but we discard them and what this means is that even um things like smart contracts that you can very easily predict the behavior of um can still have a a good chance of getting a a slot because even though i might instantly see the smart contract bid and then bid one higher in the next block um it can't it might be that well then the smart contract maybe bids up in the block after that and i bid so i might be in a bidding war with a smart contract but it still means that every other block the smart contract will will be the winning

one at that point and then it's like a 50 50 chance whether it's the smart contract or me because it's a block chosen at random in the last hour so it might be one where the smart contract was winning but it might go on where i'm winning now normally you won't be able to do that because i would just always be checking the smart contract bidding one up and by the time it ended i would i would be bidding one beyond the smart contract but because we end a random time we can we can avoid that problem one inch is a decentralized exchange aggregator that sources liquidity from the top decks's and liquidity sources to save users money and time on swaps one inch is capable of finding the best possible trading paths and splitting them among multiple market depths

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reserve yours now in the crypto.com app and one other thing that i was curious about is that each pair chain is paid for via this auction um and as far as i understand there isn't payment for gas metering so then how do you prevent ddos attacks on a specific parent chain yeah it's uh basically we leave it as a problem for the power chain um it's we don't want to force power chains into a particular model for how they measure or charge for their transactions um what we instead do is say well look enough validators must um agree that your block your power

chain block um is verifiable validatable executable basically can be can be can be um run um in a particular period two seconds i think at the moment so it's like a third of the six second um block time um and as long as that's the case then we don't care how you how you uh you know how you manage your transactions how you manage your users how you manage any of your blockchain logic to make it sure it fits in the two seconds if for some reason it doesn't then it's the block isn't going to get in and maybe you your next block it'll get in um

maybe some some other collateral some other block producer will will come up with a block that takes less than two seconds um but the point is that um we we don't we want to be more abstract more general so a more general way of than counting gas which is a very specific way of of working out how to make sure that blocks don't take too long that you don't get ddosed um a more general way is just to say well we don't care like as long as it happens in two seconds we don't care how you manage it so alternative ways of managing it would just be to have voting for example or to not have transactions or to have transactions but have a very simple way of measuring not not gas just saying well there's only one kind of transaction transfer

transactions so it might be like a plasma kind of chain where it's just you know super transfer oriented and we um and we don't we know that every transfer only takes however many 0.1 of a millisecond or something um and we we just make sure that you can't have more than 20 25 ten thousand twenty thousand twenty million twenty thousand twenty thousand uh of them in a uh yeah that's right in a uh in a block and you know then you don't need gas counting you don't need dynamic resource measurement now of course for smart contract if you want to have smart contracts be

very general and very deterministic then you probably still want this but the point is that you don't need it in every circumstance and there are lots of use cases where you know more simple than the smart contract use case where you really don't need that level of complexity um and the performance hit that you take from it so by pushing by allowing um blockchain power chains to decide their own way of being of keeping this two-second enforcement um we allow them to um uh without all sorts of more um um flexibility uh and potentially performance benefit okay you've come up with a concept

called initial parachain offerings how do these differ from initial coin offerings and also in particular how do these avoid the regulatory problems that ico's had in the us uh well you know we we don't really um we haven't done much legal research on on um i mean i i i think we're trying to i think they're now pl plos or something parachain lease offerings but anyway okay okay you know because ipo is kind of already upgraded then it's like trying to not do not sound like ipo but anyway okay but why don't you describe what they are um but yeah so i um the thing about powertrain

leases is um we call it like crowd loaning so it's like crowdfunding but instead of instead of just handing over your your your hard-earned cash um and getting i don't know something back maybe a product or a token or whatever um it's only a loan so you lock up your um your dots or your cuss armor same one cause armor um for some period of time um and you can choose like um well you know ahead of time how long it is so that you don't choose yourself rather the the team chooses they might say well we only need it for six months after six months we'll have launched our token we'll have uh we'll we'll have users

uh will be very clearly a good use case um and we will then work out other funding mechanisms probably selling our own tokens into whatever market it is um and uh for dots and then using those dots um that would be a pretty obvious way of doing it i'd say but that initial six months you probably you may well need to go to um uh go to others go to dot holders and say look you know loan as the loan as the dots for elise would you please um and that's what this is for so it's crowd loan you're asking dot holders to put their dots in for a fixed period of time now this loan this crowd loan um is kind of a bit like staking it's handled entirely by the polka dot

relay chain and then probably over time that will migrate into a power chain because we don't really want all of this complex stuff on on the relay chain um but you don't have to trust the team with it that's the main thing right you're loaning the dots into polka dot the relay chain and it's they just get kind of reserved they don't even really leave your account they're still kind of on your account um and they're certainly still on the chain and you can always check the logic of the chain to see yes they're very much associated with the account you have three and a half months to go then they'll be back spendable by you from your account um and it's uh yeah it's like it's a bit like using the staking system the only um the only difference is

they're not producing any returns like they do with the staking system but presumably the team that is that has asked you to loan um these uh these dots for their initial power chain or their power chain lease um are planning to reward your contribution your loan with um well i don't know something on their chain perhaps one might imagine some of their own tokens but i mean i i don't want to straight jacket these guys maybe they've got some other thing going on maybe it's a i don't know an nft chain and they're giving you a free tickets to a gig i don't know who knows could be all sorts of things um [Music]

so yeah main main takeaway is um there is no transfer a value in this right they're not no the team isn't getting anything from from the crowd right the crowd are just kind of locking up their tokens um with a guarantee guaranteed by the protocol that these tokens are coming back in a particular time period now again we haven't consulted uh any one of any note legal or otherwise on this um and and how it might be different but um you know in my uh layman opinion uh i i would think that uh the having a you know having just it literally be um locking up some

tokens for some period that you definitely get back later with zero risk or zero additional risk um isn't really uh kind of anything you know it's it's it's like staking and and that's not really a thing right it's just the rewarding is a thing perhaps and and might have some knock-on effect but but locking something up you know it's not a thing as opposed to value transfer into some other entity which very much is a thing that's a that's a definite thing um so i i think by moving away from the value transfer interest into a guaranteed um kind of lock-up situation um with a guaranteed return unlock-up

date um i think uh that may well move it into a um to be viewed by various organizations as a um as a non-event basically okay well there are people who work at the sec who listen to my show so we may find out um so polka dot has on chain governance can you do a brief description of how that works one one thing that i find interesting about it is that uh proposals that pass get automatically executed and your theory is that this will prevent forks which i find fascinating so maybe you can also talk about that uh sure um well okay so let's um so we've got let's let's um move this from the meta protocols

so i mentioned earlier you've got this meta protocol right webassembly this like low level language basically it's a machine language on which we can describe and define the polka dot protocol and the kasama protocol and the edgeware protocol the moonbeam protocol and the i don't know centrifuge protocol that carla protocol all these protocols right um and they're all built on this meta protocol this web assembly based meta protocol now you've got a problem the problem is how do you know when to change your protocol like what governs that or what decides that so you can say well you know there's there's a team and they've got a ceo

and the ceo is a key and they can just change the protocol with the key but you know it's not really in the spirit of decentralized um blockchain kind of kind of scene is it not a very good answer um and of course it has its big problems which is well what if the ceo loses their key what if um well if the ceo goes mad so we need a better way and normally we decentralize this decision making criteria so we have multi signatures we have voting we try and you know bring it out pluralize um the mechanism now that's all that's all well and good but then how do you make sure that this mechanism is respected like if it's

more than just literally a single key that is trivial to sort of respect um you can build it into the software for example um then how do we ensure that everyone is on the same page and we have this consensus problem so this is where this is another reason why we have a meta protocol the meta protocol allows for us to alter the protocol according to the rules of the protocol and that's where we have this um the governance sure but also the um the enactment of the decision coming from the governance um i mean you know we have like uh we have this this situation in the in

the u.s at the moment with uh you know a lack of consensus on the one side uh which is most of the news outlets um 74 80 whatever of the population and um i don't know every a lot of a lot of people on twitter are all saying well obviously joe biden won the election um and then on the other side you've got um you've got the president himself and a lot of um a lot of voices behind him uh saying well actually no he didn't uh trump won the election um we have a lack of consensus over the governance process itself um and this uh this obviously um is problematic um and kind of

problematic kind of kind of one of the ways because the reason it's problematic is because the you know it's not clear people are asking well what exactly governs the transition process how do we know when like who should be the next pr if there if there isn't consensus um who makes sure that the government is indeed the government that was that was elected if we can't decide who was elected and there's there isn't like you know is it just well whoever's in the white house governs well that doesn't seem like what if what if the current occupier doesn't want to leave the white house then what happens we we have this constitutional crisis and um and this is why we need to

um this is why it's important to have um absolute enactment like we this is why it's important to tie the enactment of the decision to the decision-making process itself and make the decision-making process as sort of um the enforcer as it were or at least part of the enforcement um now we don't like there isn't like an independent election commission that um has the power to to put to both you know manage the election and put in the new president that that doesn't exist right it's sort of the well the old president it just should get out of the way like

it wasn't really answered by the the people who drew up the constitution it's like of course the old president should just get out of the way let's focus on polkadot i understand the analogy but all right just yeah um so anyway um the tying together the governance the decision-making process and the means by which that pro the decision of that that comes from that process should be enacted is is really critical in any system whether it's polka dot or anything else and that's what were that's what we do and the reason that we can do it is because we have this meta protocol layer the meta protocol doesn't change but it does govern and execute the decision-making process so it's like

the meta protocol is the thing that sort of runs the governance system so people can vote on what they think the next iteration of products should be or should do or how it should change whether bugs should be fixed whether it should be there should be i don't know rescues or any kind of whatever remunerations compensations uh out of order transfers whatever it is um but they that that meta protocol layer also governs what the protocol is which means it can enact any of those decisions um i mean any is any is maybe i don't wanna i wanna tie myself up with words but like most the vast vast vast majority of

protocol changes that would that we can ever envisage the need to do this meta protocol layer can allow for them to happen and that means that we never come out of consensus now with just to compare that to other blockchain systems you've got like forks so you've got hard forks that's how we change the the the means of consensus that's how we change the protocol right now the problem is that what if what if the syst what if we can't decide on it what if i don't know 55 votes to go this way 45 votes to go that way well does it mean we should go with the 55 percent but theoretically i mean yeah i guess i mean depends what's the governance

mechanism what's the decision-making criterium if there isn't one if it's like weak consensus then then there's no way of deciding yeah you're in this kind of gray zone where yeah there's a there's a majority the strict majority but there isn't like a way of actually deciding because no one's actually agreed on how we decide um and that's that's that's you know famously happened with the classic uh well with ethereum at the time was there was no classic um and uh 90 of the voters at least wanted to um you know do the rescue thing and 10 didn't um and the 10 who didn't um carried on regardless and uh and hence

ether classic was born and it's these schisms i mean you can argue you can argue schisms are a good thing i mean i think it's a very very questionable position to be in for sure schisms are not a indefinitely good thing because you schism you schism you know you skis them into a thousand bazillion fragments um then none of them are going to be very like you know none of them going to have any users um so obviously yeah maybe some things do get sufficiently big that you know and there's so many differing points of view or maybe two very large camps um that are sufficiently different in their outlook that you kind of do

need to do need to fragment a little but um schisms cannot solve everything and um if indeed they solve anything and it's this is a the way that we avoid schisms is by allowing people to come together to have a forum where opinions can be aired um and then to have a decision-making mechanism that everybody buys into and everyone is behind um the eventual outcome of and that's why that's why democracies have not you know schizomed and schisms and scissors over the centuries that we've had them um it's because we have you know we have elections and and people accept that you know in an

election um you have your you have your vote you have the time to you have a forum you have the time to air your opinion you have the time to listen to others opinions but at the end of the day you vote and then there's an outcome and if the outcome isn't the same way that you voted it's like maybe next time but right the process um let's also now talk about security parity has a history of well-known security lapses namely the hacks of the parity multisig wallet the first of which resulted in the siphoning of funds for some major icos and the second of which froze half a million eth now the security for polka dot will be managed by the base layer chain so if something goes wrong there then the security for all the para chains

will be at risk what do you say to people who are concerned about the security of polka dot as a company and as a team we have altered quite a lot since way back when we were doing um the parity wallet i mean most of that code was done in 2016-ish um and parity at that point really had no um we were just you know giving out free software it was it was like yep we're coding this stuff um under the gpl no warranty you know um we didn't have uh the resources to be doing

you know huge amounts of auditing we didn't have the resources to be paying very expensive i would add external teams um uh external experts at security um to be looking at this stuff so really it was like a quid pro quo it's like look the code's here but you've got to kind of look at it now with polka dot that's uh obviously changed a little we um we have had some not in substantial income from the um from the the crowd sale um or the private actually sale that we've been doing um and so it's um with this uh we actually have the resources to do

um sort of proper both internal audits which i actually think are really very important um and often will show because people internally have a usually a deeper understanding of the technologies involved often show like um some of the more tricky uh books uh but also um external audits and like the polkadot um codebase itself went through i think four separate external audits from four top-tier security auditors including one which was a red audit so it's like basically this this kind of top level attack team who were just there attacking um a uh i think they were attacking kosama actually

you know they were actually trying to i don't know if they were they were gonna blackhat take it down i don't think they were but they were they were attempting to find holes in it right and um uh you know ultimately the delivery of software comes down to confidence how confident are you that what you're delivering is reasonably bug-free um and you know you can never be 100 confident it's it's too complicated it's like i mean polkadot in particular is really quite complicated uh more so than ethereum but regardless it's still even even big even a theory even like relatively constrained pieces of software um

contain books because they're built by people and people make mistakes and people make mistakes when they're looking at other people's stuff and teams of people make mistakes you can queue up 100 coders and ask them to find bugs in a particular um piece of software but you know there will there will probably be bugs left after all 100 have had a look at them um if you are on um utterly like mission critical systems programming then you'll probably have multiple teams each independently implementing stuff and you'll you'll have some way of like combining all of their implementations such that any individual bug doesn't actually result in in in the problem manifesting itself um now and that's that's also an avenue

that we've gone down we have two external um teams so not parity um um other completely other teams chainsafe and soromitsu um that are implementing polkadot in independently from us so we're going down that route as well we've got like huge amounts of external audits uh uh we have a continuous external audit process um so we actually have um uh uh a company um one of our um basically the security company that were one of the four that we had um audit polkadot in the first place constantly auditing the polkadot code base constantly looking out for bugs checking new code we have a rule that basically no new

runtime code gets into polka dot unless it's been audited um the only uh the only exception to that is if it's like really trivial like basically you know a number changed or some variable was renamed but basically all code all significant changes that go into polka dot first have to get audited nothing goes on the chain until it's been audited um so i mean you know while i can't say well you know polka dots bug free because it's a huge piece of software made by humans um it's we are now taking uh every precaution that we reasonably can um in order to make sure that

um that that doesn't happen now on top of that we also have governance which means that um in principle if we can agree that this was a book and it it really ought to be you know it has very clear um a very clear manifestation um for example someone's funds get locked indefinitely and um you know you can't you can't unlock them directly but it's very clear that it's their funds it's very clear that there is one key and only one key that controls these funds um then it's and you can you know and and the governance of polkadot so this the assembled stakeholders um whether it's through a referendum or

via the council um in in polkadot governance case it's like both it has to go via the council into a referendum then everyone gets a chance to vote on it um if the assembled stakeholders decide that actually yeah we should fix this we should you know whatever unlock these funds or transfer it back or whatever it is um then it will happen and that can't happen on chains without governance um yeah it sounds like this was born out of your experience with the frozen friends on the ethereum i mean are we all yeah we all have our uh drivers yeah so speaking of ethereum ethereum obviously is the leader at the moment in kind you know not maybe exactly the same space that polka dot aims to compete in but

a very similar space how do you view polka dot as coexisting with ethereum um i mean i this this depends a lot on um on the driving uh factors behind ethereum um i said very early on um uh in in polka dots i think it was like 20 2018 i think it was the dev the dot con um polka dots are bet against oh verbet against blockchain maximalism like really with pokedop i wanted to make a network of networks i didn't want to like be um i don't want to try and like solve all of the problems with one chain i think ethereum that certainly um some of the um

some of the narratives surrounding ethereum is there should only ever be one blockchain there only ever needs to be one blockchain that's ethereum ethereum can host everything um that's not a narrative that i ever really bought into um and um i i don't think it's a i don't think it's like a super like sensible narrative um i i think uh i think if if you know ethereum um ends up becoming a a chain that um is sort of bridgeable um i think uh i think that there's a very good chance that polkadot and ethereum will will just kind of happily sort of

coexist with um logic and value flowing between the two um very easily um now looking at some of uh you know we're already looking at ether2's sort of specifications consensus mechanism um and how it might eventually pan out because of course eth2 is um only has its beacon chain at the moment so there's no there's no state transitioning really on it there's no there's certainly no shards or anything happening um in that regard so we've still got a long way to go before we can be sure precisely what if eth2's eventual technical architecture will be but my hope is that it will become um it will become something that we can very easily interface with and

and then from in that way um uh have the two you know sort of cooperate and and uh form a sort of much bigger um uh ecosystem um yeah i mean polka dot is already i feel kind of rolling out the red carpet for builders and users currently on ethereum because moonbeam has these unified accounts which let people use their ethereum addresses on polka dot they also have the same tooling as ethereum does and substrate of course makes it possible to use the exact same code that adapt has on ethereum but on polka dot and yet as you pointed out there is this strain of tribalism or even maximalism maybe you might say

in ethereum so what do you plan to do to woo ethereum users and builders to polkadot and overcome that tribalism um i mean i i you know one of the big pushes of polkadot was bridges and i mean this this this predates polkadot parity um the you know did the parity bridge um uh uh like a while before it was early 2016 we started work on that if i remember rightly um so connectivity uh trying to bring together different chains disparate systems into into sort of one functional economy um has always really been something that that i've been interested something that

parity that we at parity have wanted to do and i you know i really want to um that's really one of the key sort of features if you like of polkadot one of the things that it was designed around although polkadot really isn't fundamentally a sort of bridge um bridging thing it is uh something that bridges can very easily be developed on for and something that we're already doing ourselves um so yeah i mean i i hope that um bridging and compatibility will be um very key factors in um in in basically creating a more it's not you know it's not about drawing people over necessarily but creating a more

let's say fluid ecosystem creating a very fluid um meta ecosystem of of blockchain so you know people can deploy an application on one chain but not be constrained to that chain to then maybe deploy a sort of secondary application in another chain and become a multi-chain app kind of like a multinational company you know the the more that we can do to ensure that chains are the applications that teams don't are not bound into just a single uh blockchain the better and that's that's obviously very important for polkadot as we are coming at this um as a as a you know a relay chain that whose main reason of existence is to connect all of

these little power chains and and also external trends and would you ever do anything like i don't know liquidity mining or any kind of incentive to attract people to polka dot um i don't know maybe we'll see i mean it's at the end of the day polka dot can only exist if it's useful uh for it's become useful it needs uh it needs teams and so it's not that i i don't want to like um i don't want to pretend that you know uh it's uh uh polka dots the sort of buddhist monk of the ecosystem that's sort of just gonna uh take a beating and keep on smiling um not not really uh but um but nonetheless i think there is a

um i think there is uh you know a sort of middle ground that is very um uh let's say a mutually enlightened self-interest position that allow that allows us to um that allows basically all of the the chains to sort of come together um and uh and cooperate coordinate open their ecosystems and allow kind of like free trade you know allow allow people the opportunity to um to move around allow teams the good teams to deploy across power across chains across power chains across ecosystems um so i i don't want to say that we're not we're not going to compete of course countries within the european union

compete in many respects with each other but um you know there are um there are still really valid reasons for the european union um to exist and i think the same is true um for um you know different um for an ecosystem to be built a multi-chain ecosystem to be built so there's also a trend toward transactions that are composable at least in the d5 world and by that um we mean that one transaction can include multiple contract calls within a single block but as far as i understand in polka dot when you send messages between pair chains they can't happen the transactions can't happen in the same block

so there can't be these instantaneous contract calls across shards and that of course then breaks composability and so you know there are a lot of things like you know flash loans or atomic swaps wouldn't really work cross chain is composability something that polka dot is working toward yeah so there's two main uh there's two main things so that that on the face of it is is right but there's um a couple of a couple of sort of mitigating uh factors to this one of them is that composability is likely to be mostly a thing within a single chains ecosystem so tightly bound smart contracts that do things like flash loans are likely to be within the same d5 ecosystem whether

it's moon beam or a carla or whatever it is um that's that's that's one of the reasons why you would want um things to be constrained within a within a single parachute now the other the other mitigating factor is that um ultimately what we want to do is have um asynchronous um uh contract calling now what this would allow basically is for um in the um in the programming model in the execution model it would appear as though um when you uh when you send a transaction off it sort of it comes back instantaneously when you send a message off to make a flash loan or whatever it is it comes back

instantaneously but in reality um it it gets um the the sort of executing context the thing that's the thing that's like taking the flash loan um actually is halted is paused for a little a short period of time while the message goes away onto perhaps another chain um it gets executed the flash loan comes through it goes back again carries on executing and so on um now this requires some some interesting uh and not entirely trivial um um alterations to the computational model and wait just be clear so then that takes three blocks and so it's like an 18 second transaction yep okay i mean it may take

i mean it depends whether it's going all the way into another power chain or whether it's staying within the power chain um but the the and it may take one block it may take two it may take three it's it depends on a few factors um but it made it maybe as much as three now this um the flash like if you know it's not clear precisely what the use cases will be if it's an ethereum style flash loan then yeah maybe you do want to have it on the single chain now it's worth pointing out of course that all um all multi-shard architectures will will have this issue like all multi-shard architectures that expect to be able to call across shards as easily as they

call into their own shard will will have to deal with the fact that going across a shard introduces latency it can't be handled within the same block um so it's not clear how other multi-shard architectures like eth2 are going to handle this either eth1 gave everyone a free pass because it's not scalable yeah if you so if you if you constrain everything into the same blockchain like eth one does then problem solved um which is you know the the position that moonbeam and akala and edgware are already in on polkadot if you want to spread things out between chains that operate in parallel to each other and

therefore get scalability then you will have to deal with the fact that things don't get processed as a whole in one block and that's just a that's a fundamental issue with computer science logic with maths you can't you can't get around it by some clever programming trick um but if you introduce things like asynchronous um calls to it then you can kind of massage the situation a bit mitigate some of the issues uh that you might face if um a component that you want to compose with is on another chain now the only other thing i'd add to that is that composability doesn't just composability isn't about being in the same execution environment there are all sorts of ways of composing things that

don't require that example when you want to do an insurance contract you need an oracle for whatever physical phenomena is you're insuring against the insurer that oracle doesn't need to be on the same chain as the insurance contract it's enough just to provide a proof from another chain that the ensure that that oracle said that the weather was really but there was a huge storm um houses got knocked down in your area like that can be done as a proof you feed it onto the chain um that is that is providing the financial um whatever compensation and it's enough right there's no need for them to be on the same chain it's only this specific ethereum sort of defy where they've made use of the fact that it's all on the same chain and therefore you can do this stuff that

all has to be done within a single block very easily that's not a limit that's not fundamental limit composability can happen even if it doesn't all happen in the same block um the web3 foundation has 30 of all dots and i'm not sure what amount parity has so maybe you can fill us in on that how do the web3 foundation and parity plan to use their collective stake within the network will you participate in parachain auctions for instance uh no i don't think so no um i i we don't have we don't have yeah we have less than that um i don't have the numbers to hand but it's not

it's not 33. um well yeah i mean according to missouri that that's where i got the 30 from the one three foundation it was like 29.7 or something okay well um we we uh a lot of that has been like so that 30 figure from the original um uh the original document has been eaten no no i calculated it according to the current supply i did the math on my phone okay the current supply yeah uh okay i'm not i'm not sure what you're watching what your math is but okay it's substantially less than than 30 um because uh some of that went to um

companies that are doing that building polka dot like parity um some of that uh but also like you know chainsafe and zoromitsu and um some of it went through to grant companies some of it went through to auditors sla um various other slas that we have uh that slas are the software um agreements um so and then of course there's employee buy-in schemes and all that stuff so that that all comes out of that chunk um of uh of dot but anyway aside from that um we don't plan on um on on putting uh power chains like purchasing like

power chain leases with it that's not that's not really what we're what we're in for that's that dot that the foundation is keeping is really just a long-term alignment uh mechanism so the foundation like has benefit if polka dot um does well and is able therefore to do more um and uh the main thing it's it's it's it's going into grants it's going into keeping the foundation running which means you know managing um various ongoing legal and regulatory um affairs um continuing to um you know manage things like adoption and outreach and all that kind of stuff um as well as research um so their

foundation runs its research outfit the that's the main thing it does do staking but actually relatively little these days it's uh most of that dot most of the staking of that dot the vast majority will end up going to the polka dots um uh the 1000 validator program of polkadot so basically trying to get as many validators in as possible build a really good validation ecosystem which is um uh will soon be if it isn't announced yet it will soon be announced it's right on the cusp um and uh the kasama uh very similar to kasama so uh the foundation's ksm um

stash is also um much of it engaged in the kasama's 1000 validator program um yeah and and it's really we try not we don't tend to vote either um if a vote is down to the wire then we'll probably take up a tie breaking position um but we try and keep um we try and keep our dot out of the uh and kosama out of the sort of general um um sort of governance okay so we're at we're basically at time but i'm going to just ask you two more questions um and let's we'll try to keep the answers brief in june before polka dots may net launch a preliminary draft by the crypto ratings council gave dots a higher risk

of being labeled securities a 4.75 on a scale of five with five meaning the asset has quote many characteristics strongly consistent with treatment as a security again this is preliminary there hasn't actually been a formal reading that's been issued what do you plan to do to address the possibility that dots could be deemed a security it's our position that dots are absolutely not a security um and um you know dots are very clearly a utility like you use them to get parachutes parathons have a very clear utility um so we you know there is no way that we could imagine a world where dots were labeled as a security um

the you know these guys take into account lots of factors one of which was that the dot network was not live at the point that they um that they uh published this pre-publication non-opinion um and um and that may well have contributed significantly to this to this not quite score um i i would expect that any later reasonable appraisal particularly once power chains are launched um will be um quite different polka dot enables public and private

pair chains to interact with each other and china's blockchain based service network recently adopted polka dot how do you imagine polka dot will serve the enterprise world and how will being on polka dot which has this ability to communicate with public power chains benefit enterprise blockchains um i i think connectivity is super important for enterprise enterprise blockchains um now i think i might be at uh ends with a lot of enterprise people but i'll tell you why um enterprise blockchains are great they're they're like the intranets of the early 90s they they they have a very clear value

proposition for um enterprises in this in this world right now in this sort of traditional mindset um it's like yeah you know you can track what all of your internal transactions are you can make sure no one is is cheating on their their audits you can very easily audit everything that's going on within a company um and uh and that's that level of transparency um is very um can be very uh sort of um um persuasive um especially when they're when you're someone at the top who has to who has to make decisions and it's kind of difficult to see below one level of management below you that will work initially in the same way that the old intranet

uh allowed office memos to go back and forth much more easily than you know farting around with bits of paper but what really made intranets be useful is the fact that the intranet was eventually connected to an internet that allowed offices um of different companies to send memo memos to each other like email and then they start to be able to advertise to each other by the world wide web they said to be able to interact with consumers via the world wide web and https um this is uh this was a super important progression we wouldn't have had the later stages without that first stage so i can imagine that enterprises are super keen on building the blockchain for their their company maybe they're multinationals lots of

different sort of arms um maybe they're conglomerate maybe it's actually different companies but the same overall um aligned incentives maybe the overall owner is the same maybe it's between a consortium so no real aligned incentives but a general assumption that you're kind of working in the same space and probably do want to sort of communicate with each other a lot but when we eventually get to the point that companies are offering their services through a um a very minimal cost extremely agile transaction based network that doesn't need any certificates or kind of middle men or any additional

like visa fees or anything like this when it's literally just business to business doing uh micro transactions with each other maybe it's for data maybe it's for permissions to use some particular online system who knows it doesn't doesn't really matter but when we get to this point um that connectivity will be priceless because it will allow composition of solutions and as we saw with d5 composition of solutions is really where the gold is to be mined all right great well this has been such a fabulous discussion and i hope people really enjoyed it i did see a few questions about kusama and when there just was so much to cover we didn't get into everything quickly but i did say it's like the test network

and there is actual live value with their own tokens so um i you know hopefully people can read more about it it is very interesting that polka dot has uh both of these networks live um yeah kevin thank you again so much and um i look forward to seeing what happens on polka dot thanks laura it was interesting [Music]