ATOM ONE Constitution with Jae Kwon

Transcript

foreign [Music] thanks for joining me for this very special episode I think it's about 35 people in the live stream um I gotta say when I announced this yesterday like I don't think I've gotten this much um just replies and comments and likes and like it was all over the Spectrum

um and so yeah I think this is gonna be really interesting um first of all how are you doing Jay um sorry you've been muted um yeah how are you doing I'm doing great I'm doing uh good as always um you know it's there's always a lot going on um it seems just everywhere and uh I'm trying to stay centered through it all and you know you know it's uh it's a nice exercise and and staying uh centered through a storm you know and

there's always been storms right so here's another one but um I think this will be good yeah yeah um someone just mentioned the lights here in the live stream that uh I was muted during the intro is that possible well I could hear was music I was like very confused like what's going on it's like I hear this music and then oh damn okay yeah I heard you for the intro oh okay that's weird I just heard anything well uh I'm still figuring out the software but um yeah so yeah so like I think the last time we chatted was

at interchange conversations in Berlin uh in 2019 I think um what have you been working on since then and um what's been sort of the the the the arch of uh the Arc of of uh of jayquan since um since that time uh-huh um yeah so here's here's a gist um so during during the coveted lockdowns right I um I started um honestly admittedly panicking because I saw covid uh and uh there was a there's an article stating that like I was the first ones talking about it

um and and and also proposing you know it may be true that it came from a lab uh which by the way seems like there's enough consensus on um although you know you don't really hear in the news but if you look for it the facts are all out there with whistleblowers but um yeah so I I moved to Oregon for a bit um I thought hey I need to go to live in some farmland and then um and then when they started pushing vaccines experimental vaccines um rushed to children who the data shows doesn't need it

I started to realize that there's something more going on and uh I I started diving straight into a bunch of rabbit holes you know and I was in some rabbit holes before but this this made me just dive into some I uh I kind of surveyed all the rabbit holes I mean like literally all of them um and um and came out kinda um you know more confused but definitely understanding some some greater picture and um and uh it made me realize that we absolutely need um a a different kind of platform

where people can discuss um these facts and theories without fear of censorship where um where the system is flexible enough to experiment with different you know moderation techniques different techniques of Truth discovery of of weighing facts of uh for all these things because what's going on right now is um the the the most of media including you know major Tech platforms are completely for a while at least it's getting a little better but it's still true

they're they're all censored right um and and it seems like the censorship is is causing real truth to be um to be blocked from public view um and uh and it's not good you know because yeah on the other on the one hand we we need to moderate information but on the other hand you know what what this is being used as this this you know all these conspiracy theories that are not true you know half truths and dangerous lies all these things are being promoted to justify the censorship of information that we do need to know about and um and so I've been working on um this project called no land

um and it's a it's a different kind of smart contract platform um it's it's um it has it's it's based on Go the language and it uses a different virtue of machine a novel Virtual Machine that the world has never quite seen before that allows you to basically at any moment pause a program and and continue it miraculize the entire state in memory um and what that means is you know you can program smart contracts in go into most succinct way as if the computer that is running the

uh the the go program the smart contract um will never will never um shut down so the memory the RAM memory becomes persistent and this opens new ways of programming that that preserves you know the features of the language enables modularity through the features of the language while removing a lot of complexity about programming um today not just in you know like webassembly based smart contracts but also just programming in general honestly I think what this virtual machine does is it opens doors to

programming paradigms even in the non-blockchain Web 2.0 space that we should really explore um and let's explore it so we we actually had first like we thought about talking about Adam 2.0 first but I think since you're since you're already uh started like on this topic um and admittedly both Brian and I only have like a high level understanding of of no um let's dive into why it's so different from the current Paradigm and so like the virtual machine Paradigm that we're familiar with and if you're in smart contracts and cosm Watson smart contracts and also the you know the Cosmos SDK Paradigm of of having an SDK with you know modules that are

pre-written and pre-compiled for um for specific applications so yeah how does how does no like depart from what most people are familiar with and in terms of writing applications on a blockchain um so um I'd say that you know the best the best smart contract system that is in production today is ethereum solidity um because what it in the in the sense that what it allows you to do um is to create a very short script a very short program contract code upload it so it's just one transaction to upload a single file

and um and it you know that's it and anything you program using solidity is deterministic you know so you're not you're not going to get very strange bugs that you would otherwise get um if you if you were to have to program it into Cosmos SDK so determinism is is one thing like if you want to program in the cosmos SDK you have to program it in a certain way to ensure that everything is deterministic no matter what you know different environment or or instance of the program you're running in um and it's it's a bit difficult it's possible but still difficult and and we've seen bugs because of non-determinism and the other thing the

other major thing is um if you see how the cosmos SDK always passes a context around you don't have to do that anymore um and part of you know what the context object and the SDK is used for is is to load and persist objects right so we have these structures and go like you know your your business model you know a user or governance proposal vote all these things and um and every time you run a transaction you have to load these objects from the store deserialize them into objects from bytes and then do your logic and then and then turn them back into bytes and then put

them back into store it's like this persistence Paradigm you know which which comes really from web 2.02 right um is is necessary because um honestly because we don't have the machine we don't even have the right fiscal machine to do this we will in the future with with uh with memristers but that's another story but um what the no land VM allows you to do is to forget about persistence because you no longer have to store anything on disk because anything that is in memory is already persisted um so I I think uh probably a lot of people are gonna be like struggling with uh you

know sort of what does that mean and like why does it matter can you talk about um I mean in the end right from somebody using uh you know a smart contract application on no land like what are what are the benefits that they're going to kind of translate to the user or to the developer maybe [Music] um I'll say um two major things one is um it's very easy to understand no land smart contracts you can even right now if you go to test2.0.land and you can browse through to the to the uh the board's smart

contract which is kind of like a little little subreddit um yeah it's just demonstration but you can see the code you'll see that there's only a few files there really could be condensed in a single file and everything is is you don't have to understand anything about you know a different platform you know you don't have to understand a new paradigm you you can anyone who understands go can see these files and immediately understand what's going on so so it's the intuitiveness right that's new um and the other thing is because it's it's so taught you know it's so integrated with language

um modularity becomes you know something that that is um very accessible and what I mean is with uh if you're going to program a smart contract in in Rust you know it's composed to webassembly for example right you're gonna you're gonna uh have to deal with messages being passed around right and so you have to understand a new paradigm of message passing um and whereas you know in in in no land um in no land the Virgin machine it's it's just the language features that you already know and go um you you import a package from a different place you can even get

different blockchain you know maybe we'll go to that later and you embed the structure in the parent structure that's it you know the um the language features are are provided for you as the basis for constructing your smart contracts and you know makes it all very simple um and another thing to mention is that in the long run you know so like the virtual machine as it is right now as an interpreter it's it's written didn't go it's good enough for production but in the long run as we optimize this thing um it will enable um Energy savings too because you don't you don't have to do a lot of things that you otherwise have to do the same Cosmos SDK anyways okay so basically

if I can sort of maybe rephrase what you're saying right so okay the the the Simplicity of the smart contracts and the benefit of that might be security no because uh it's easier to spot flaws if things are simple uh and maybe also from user security or like you know other people can easily analyze a smart contract and know what's going on and then maybe sort of the barrier to entries or that like developers can more easily learn the thing and create smart contracts is yeah it'll open yeah absolutely it'll it'll reduce the size of a team needed to create an application by an order of magnitude it will increase by an order of magnitude

the amount of developers who can who can program the smart contract listing at all and and several orders of magnitude for in terms of people who understand the entire stack because it's all written and go and it's about go yeah so what about in IBC compatibility here and compatibility with you know the existing Cosmos SDK and cosmosm Paradigm um can you address uh talk about how no fits into all of this yeah um okay so I'll talk a little bit about um um our our plans right so these these might change but this is um this is how I think we should move

forward with no land um so first of all we we want there to be a minimal token hub um you know that's the reason why um I'm I'm pushing for atom one which uh which I hope to get into very soon um because because no land doesn't want to compete with the cosmos Hub um for token pegged transfers um I I think that's a that's a problem um that that needs a specialized solution token pegging you know token transfers and the thing that adam1 is trying to solve because the entire crypto ecosystem needs it and it's important to get right so we should we

should pool our security into making a very secure thing and then innovate upon their you know there can be more hubs but should get one Hub right sorry what do you mean by token Peg transfers yeah what I mean is um what I mean is um uh uh IBC connecting to zones you know the IBC currently in the cosmos Hub is is is used for transferring tokens right it can be used for other things too like smart contract calls across change so I'll pinch an example another thing that that IVC will be used for for no land is is you know besides connecting to the cosmos helper token transfers is to connect to other chains who want to import code from no land so

you want to allow other chains many change to to benefit from uh and and to use the no land virtual machine but also the code that is hosted on Nolan so you can import you know on another chain say you know node.world or jquon.land or whatever and say import no land slash P slash whatever code you want and boom you have it the only uh there what we're also trying to define a um a uh license fee structure so a portion of the transaction costs transaction fees that are paid that use the virtue machine should pay back to no land right so there's that but uh we're you know our IBC connections to other change uh will

not be for uh the purpose of you know what Cosmos Hub is trying to do but for allowing uh the virtual machine a smart contract ecosystem to be used all over the place including change.use and support wasm I'm a little like confused by this so so let's say you have some code some smart contract a program that is on no land or no land and then uh there's another blockchain and you said it could basically import code from there so so it means they would like send an IBC transaction to no land and then no land would send the code over and then the code would run on that other chain

um yeah essentially there will be relayers involved too yeah but yeah other chains can verifiably download um and use code hosted on no land yeah what's what's the benefit of that because because if the codes on no land I mean because but then with the other chain need some sort of a VM or like yeah it would need the same VM yeah they would they would need to import essentially the same implementation right but as a module of the SDK yeah so think of no land as like a GitHub for no laying smart contracts right and and you know any website a Web 2.0 website you create you can import uh from GitHub and and tooling is you know

transparent so you don't you don't have to worry about how it works but it just works magically kind of right so that's the same idea you can import code from nolang as if it was GitHub in the first instance you know you'll just you'll only be able to import code um uh you know um but but in future um iterations you'll also be able to communicate with no land and it'll be interchained messages and also interchange state inspection and what I mean is this in no land the virtual machine mercolizes the entire state so you know all the memory all the objects you create all of it they they they they they are part of the root Merkel hash

and and so what I mean what this enables is it allows anyone to create a smart contract that um creates their own IBC protocol right you don't even have to pass packets of messages between chains you can just see what's going on it's a it's the difference between talking through words versus just seeing through body language I'd say but um you know it'll open a new can of worms a new world a Pandora's box of IBC Innovation permissionless IBC Innovation and at that point you know I would say there will be new versions of IBC that that will just happen permissionlessly so let's uh let's talk about yeah your

your Constitution proposal that you that you've posted to GitHub and also on the governance Forum uh that you've titled atom one what's the motivation behind this document and where does it fit in the context of you know prolonging The Hub and ensuring that the Hub remains relevant long term so um um when the when the Hub was conceived I think um it was uh it was called a hub and there was it was very explicit visual imagery of how the Hub has spokes around it and how the Hub is is primarily solving for token transfers and that's that's what was communicated

and and we talked about how this system can scale to allow many transfer transactions either transactions new application transactions throughout the entire ecosystem but still benefit from having to HUB transparently accountably tracking you know where our tokens are um and um and um you know it was implicit because there was no Constitution but through you know various conversations and writings kind of scattered throughout uh for me um the the goal was always to um basically create an alternative Financial system right to create the backbone for an open

decentralized Financial system um and and that means you know solving what and trying to solve what Bitcoin is trying to solve but going further to allow scaling right and and not just Bitcoin but any kind of token and all right so um the thing that that um that I didn't like about the atom 2 proposal uh more so about uh the way it was pitched was that it it um it didn't it didn't educate the use of the people the readers it didn't educate cosmonauts about about the alternative you know

kind of default plan with basically you know creating this this base layer upon which you know and what I mean is I think it's much better to double down on the original vision of the cosmos Hub being a platform upon which new products and new Innovations can be created permissionlessly to the extent yeah yeah well so so that's interesting um I think that the the authors of the paper would argue that that is the vision for Adam too um that the allocator

and the treasury that is used to fund new projects um allows Innovation to occur um allows new projects to build uh their uh interchange security uh is also a big component in bringing new projects to the hub that leverage security and leverage um the and that sort of benefit from from the economics of Hub security um that all like the item 2.0 Paper I think was written with this intention where do you think like it sounds familiar view that you feel that they've got it wrong

um or or that maybe the the long-term effects of what Atom 2 aims to implement will not achieve these goals um okay so yeah um well um one is you know the the let's talk about um the atom token itself um right so so what Atom 2 does is it it turns Adam more into a a money-like token right um and and you know this is a very different model than before so that's why in out of one I double down on the original

idea for why atom should be separate from other tokens and and clarify you know how how it all works and I'll talk about it um the thing about The Hub you know what's the main selling point of the Hub it's not just availability scalability but it's also security we we own this niche in in terms of Byzantine fault tolerant consensus you know like because we were the first to solve proof of State really you know by utilizing classical BFD algorithms and and that's what Drew people into Cosmos in the first place

um now I think we should we should make sure we hold on to that Niche and if we lose it I believe it will lose our identity and people that were originally drawn to the system will will leave for other systems that are able to maintain you know that that narrative um and in in this sense I think it's really important to to keep the atom separate from a payment money-like token um and and I'll explain why um you look at look at ethereum right they have now converted the proof of stake

and and as of the last time I checked it was like 12 or so of eth was staked and proof of stake now imagine if ethereum becomes like a dominant money form right ether then um then you'll have all these people more people a lot more people who hold eth money right who um who shouldn't be staking or delegating because they they shouldn't be in charge they shouldn't be responsible for for trying to secure the system because they don't know much about security I I don't think everyone on a planet who uses money should

understand who to delegate to to ensure a secure system you know I think that introduces politics and and you know um and just politics into the system and it turns the system away from skin in the game you know uh security system into a political game right of of who has the airwaves um and people shouldn't shouldn't you know make decisions that will get them sloshed right um unless unless that's the game they choose to play in which case you know you should you should if you think you could be an expert in it all right so you were so you're worried that like

Adam becoming more money like thing would sort of undermine the security because then more people would hold it who aren't like interested in staking or interested in uh or maybe too disconnected from sort of the the the actual governance and decision making is that your concern or yeah it creates an impossibility situation right where you can't satisfy all the needs um okay so um so I'll continue with the example once ethereum say hypothetically catches on to become you know greater than Bitcoin and you know even multiple times greater because it becomes the new

Financial system right um it needs either that the percent of stake that a percent of eth that is state must go must drop significantly below 12 to like even less than one percent um perhaps I mean this okay okay let's go into a little detour I'll try to explain think about how much money there is just in the M2 monetary you know system right M2 money it's it's in the tens of trillions okay and think of think of atoms as being like shares of Visa shares of of you know Banks or the

Federal Reserve okay the market cap of of visa and and these Banks is much lower than the total monetary Supply okay so you can already see here that the percentage is is very different it's not 12 it's much less and the same thing will happen if eth becomes money so so either the percent that is staked you know to make these you know to make consensus decisions and governance decisions will be very small or it'll be very large you know if it's very small then it's insecure because a bunch of whales with a bunch of money can just suddenly come around and stake their

ether and then take over the system whenever they want if it's very large if the percent of eth staked is very large it means multiple things it means it means people who shouldn't be staking or staking or and or it means it means the inflation rate to to to get people to stake is too high so this becomes you know more of an inflationary system than it needs to be well I mean I I think if he like if you take the ethereum example right then of course what you're sort of missing here is the existence of liquid staking right which allows basically uh makes it very easy right for people

to stake but also to uh you know use their thing as a kind of money money like instrument right with like State Thief I I don't I don't agree with you um respectfully um okay so so in this aspect um I think that the utility of liquid staking um well first of all needs to be limited um because of the systemic risk um and I don't think this is discussed enough even though it is mentioned in in the chorus one interchange taking paper right right yeah it's it's very explicit

mentioned there but it's not people don't talk about it they don't understand what's actually going to happen once we have liquid staking right um people are then going to create um uh services that uh that incentivize people to put their liquid staking into that service all right and this service is going to um it's going you know in a good liquid staking system you know there it's it you know uh this this giant pool can very well become um uh the thing that controls governance of the the original staked atoms so it creates an incentive for people who have

you know who have capital to to come in and basically the system excuse my language by by you know creating another Luna like situation they'll make it you know beneficial for you to put your liquid stake in there and then they'll use that power to then take over and destroy the original system you know risk of governance takeover so essentially just to kind of lay this out here so you've got a liquid staking provider um currently in the way that liquid's taking is set up so you have staking shares you move those into the liquid sticking provider they now have control

over your stake but the way that most liquids taking providers and interchain currently are set up they're set up in such a way that um the users maintain their uh their governance rights so users are are able to maintain governance rights over their tokens that are staked through this like it's taking service provider so you're concerned that there would be some sort of a malicious takeover by these providers um or that this would be possible and that that they could essentially take over governance yeah I mean that's this is just one example of of what may happen right and what's sure what's certain is there's not enough discussion

of how to prevent these scenarios a discussion of um of of what are what are all the failure scenarios and how do we prevent it it's it's I don't see enough discussion on that the only place I saw this was in the course one paper but I think there are many other ways to to exploit the system too you know I mean it um okay um which which I can't even understand well because I'm not I'm not a you know Financial derivatives guy but I'm sure you know there are ways that people can describe better than I can um here's another example in the Quicksilver white paper you know one of the major starting points is that well the amount that you can get slash is

only five percent so 95 of the atoms are just are just staked and bonded without any utilization and that's used as justification but the fact is we need to get away from just the five percent there should be cases where 100 of the atoms are slashed so so it kind of you know already you know that assumption which is only in the out of one white paper I already kind of you know nullifies that very what would be those scenarios what what are some examples where you think 100 of the values should be slashed okay um uh when more than a third of um the staked atom holders uh and the validators thereof participate in a

complex attack whereby they um forked a chain I mean you participate in that yeah you should you should get slashed entirely but that would happen anyway I think in such a scenario right I think people would basically do a hard fork and actually right right it wouldn't happen anyway but it but what it does is that destroys the original assumption around liquid staking which you know because of the violated assumptions would have huge repercussions yeah I mean I I think you're you know like you're totally right right when we wrote This research paper and for those who don't know basically the course one we wrote in like 2019 we think a lot about liquid shaking right and thinking a lot about you know the different risks

and what this paper on there uh which uh maybe you can link to um and yeah we're thinking a lot about these different issues and and of course this discussions happens in today's to some extent in ethereum right where people are worried about Lido and you know that basically with the success of Lido that you almost start having this kind of other layer of control over the ethereum network which ends up being like you know the light of governance and the ldo token so I think there's definitely been discussion in ethereum about this and you know when we were working on like kind of Designing the Quicksilver ideas we did want to preserve some of the

some of the features of the cosmos staking model in particular that people choose their validator and that people can participate in governance because a lot of liquid staking systems you know they kind of lose that you know because you're putting your tokens in and then there's some separate process that chooses to validator and you know the governance is kind of like uh you can't exercise it anymore but of course you're still right that I think liquid staking does open up different risks and attack vectors and uh and and I agree with you I think there's probably there's not enough discussion about it but I guess the challenge is also that

it's really hard to understand what are the risks which ones are likely how could they happen and at the same time I think you have a big you just have a big pressure or you have a big incentive you know for liquid saving to happen and I think it's kind of widely seen as something that's inevitable uh because it has those strong benefits all right so so okay here's one criticism of the attitude white paper if I understood it correctly it seems like what it's saying is okay well you can already do interchange taking with entertained accounts uh some non-native liquid staking you can do that through liquid interchange accounts but it says then that we should

also create a a native way to do liquid staking and you know I guess the the presupposition the assumption is that that will limit the amount of liquid sticking through interchange accounts but I don't think that's true I think um interchange accounts is already powerful enough that you can try to do whatever else you want on the Hub but the interchange accounts is already flexible enough that you know people will you know it will not the native solution will not limit the non-native solution so I mean my understanding of the goal of the liquid is this native liquid second solution isn't to limit uh the usage of inner chain accounts but it's actually to accelerate liquid stick

and option by allowing people to liquid stake without having to go through non-bonding period for one okay well because I think the sort of you know the larger thesis of the atom 2.0 Paper which I'm I mean there's a lot of things I like about done two point or paper there's some things I'm like less sure about I think this idea of like Adam becoming kind of like that's why I lose money I'm I'm not sure about it um but I think the idea is that okay you want to get a lot of people moved around to liquid shaking so that those liquid say tokens Can then be used you know across this interchange economy and that this way you know atom becomes more

established and more integrated and more valuable so I want to say two point share one and then you know okay just one point to complete this thought and for me which is um so going back to what I was saying with interchange accounts I think we need to because of the systemic risk we must limit how much is staked through interchange accounts the item one Constitution proposal includes a system to limit the amount of staked atoms through interchange accounts um by by you know imposing a bit of a tax on on using that system five percent you know and this should be adjusted to limit it to make sure say the total amount of interchange State atoms say is

like 25 or something you know something of that nature it needs to be explicit um now going back to um kind of the bigger picture a lot of what we want through a liquid staking really I think is solved by um by creating a photon token okay so um for example um the photon token um you know is um it first of all like this this this atom to Photon burn that is proposed in the Constitution um it um it it it it resolves the issue of Adam inflation that people are worried about

like why are we creating people you know and and I am too I'm on the same camp like where this is way too much 20 of atoms being inflated towards you know experimental treasury systems like okay well with the atom to Photon proposal people have a choice to voluntarily burn their atoms to get photons and what the photons will do is allow people to stake them the photons can be staked for interchange staking you know it's also used for um transaction fees it's also used for um well it's it's basically the you know everything people wanted in a uh you know everything people wanted about Adam to be you know non-exponentially inflationary is is

provided for you in the photon token right because the photon token does not inflate exponentially um and and so you know just about everything you really want in terms of liquidity should be resolved and solved by Photon token so the photo and the idea of the proton token would be that like you can burn atoms and then you get Photon tokens and then uh you can go the other way around as well you can burn no no no so the the what's proposed and this can change is for it to be one way only and for it to be a one-time event you know over a period of three months right um and and and and this is better than

forking the atom distribution you know mirroring it to create the photon token because it allows people to to choose whether they want to participate in this Photon experiment or not um yeah and and what's the point of this token so now you have a double token but like what's your point the point is that it is more like it is more like a money token than the atom is right the atom um like I mentioned before should be thought of as shares right General partner shares of of IBM of Visa right um and you know going back to I'll just reiterate you know because you know even the market cap of what visa is like 300 400 billion dollars quite a lot but if

Adam were to become money that amount you know 400 billion dollars put at stake by a bunch of you know whales collectively in order to take over Cosmos is like an easy deal right so well we so by having this atom Photon distinction it creates a barrier right that allows the system to be to remain secure despite a bunch of whales trying to take over system all of a sudden right so okay so yeah I think sort of there are I think the concern would be here that you know one is Adam has like a known brand it's listed on Exchange it is like you know there's there's a there's a lot of weight behind it right so the idea of like and it's already

used to some extent a little bit in this kind of interchange economy and now you're sort of you know trying to accelerate that whereas a photon like that sounds like okay it would just be some new token that um but like why would that become yeah well you know okay it's like right right why why would people care well I mean if we see that this is a better system because it preserves security and it creates a a token that is is the token to use for interchange staking so already has utility not only for transaction fees across zones hosted by

ICS but also what do you mean interchange staking uh-huh what I mean is okay I wrote this in the Adam one Constitution so so I'll just Briefly summarize it here right but the whole point of the atom is to ensure that two-thirds of it our state the majority super majority are staked right for securing the cosmos Hub right so it's it's starting with the assumption that the cosmos Hub in this system is the most important thing we want to secure so we create a wall around it by separating it from money right and ensure that two-thirds are staked because that solves the security problem that I was mentioning right um and uh so your question was uh Photon

took and why okay so now if we what interchange staking is trying to do is it's trying to create a whole Marketplace of many many blockchains that are secured right ultimately by the cosmos hub the problem is if you use atoms to to secure and to to be the stake behind all of these other um on blockchains that are secured through ICS it it already it already nullifies the the security that we're trying to create by the separation because if you know for example if only 10 of the atoms are staked right on uh afforded Cosmos Hub and then the other 90 are staked all over all over plays

and other blockchains well like you know how do you differentiate between blockchains interchange and secure blockchains that are just there to like earn you know inflationary atoms right and then all of a sudden they're gonna unbond from these zones and then State back into Cosmos Hub and take it over right so you what you have to do is you have to make sure two-thirds of the atoms bonded on are all bonded on the atom on on the cosmos Hub right and by by allowing them to be not bonded on the cosmos Hub but being bonded elsewhere and still earned you know inflationary atoms you you already you know you already destroy that that that original thing you want to preserve that invariant so

what we need for interchange staking ultimately is um is is for it to be bonded state by tokens that are not inflationary and it's not Adam you know and like financial institutions already do this like if you want to if you want to create a a financial service you know company you have to bond a certain amount of dollars right you don't bond your shares that would be weird I mean if you had to bond you know your shares and and Visa or something or it shares in your company or whatever it would just make this thing so much more complex bonding uh in in in in a in a more of a monetary token would be a lot more easy to understand and um and and evaluate right one of the things I was thinking about

here is how does how does Adam maintain its value because currently like Adam has staking utility um but it's also kind of used a little bit as a money and but but here the atoms remain staked um and I guess we haven't talked about the the um the supply uh and so like the inflation of atoms through staking rewards but long term what is the incentive for item holders to remain uh stake long term rather than selling their atoms and moving them somewhere where they have better returns um okay so

um there's there's a lot of you know reasons why you want to stake your atoms um it's because you know you not only earn you know whatever's happening the cosmos sub transaction fees and whatnot right you also earn um a constant supply of photons being paid to the state datum holders so if Photon succeeds atom succeeds so there's an incentive for all the atom holders to be promoting you know the photon token um and also in the Constitution there's proposed way to take a portion of the uh the revenue for interchange State zones that are state by photons to to pay a portion of that back to the state data

Motors as well right so through you know Adam earned transaction fees on the cosmos Hub by the way here's another thing that I haven't even mentioned like um there are other ways you know that that the constitution could be amended um to allow um to allow more blockchains to be secured by Adam and not the photon you know and this is really easy to do if you just say besides the atom and the cosmos hub there will be um there will be more you know there would be like you know 10 whatever n number of other blockchains that are all secured by the same validator set you know that's very simple at least to understand and and all of those blockchains can earn transactions fees being paid back to the cosmos Hub to the state data holders but

anyways yeah atoms but but the value of atoms so if if Photon becomes the um the primary util like the token that has the most utility and velocity of money and and usage uh and and staked out my like items are just stake there and they're not they are not produced they're not doing anything do you think that the value of Adam will continue to accrue and if it doesn't if if the value of atom uh drops significantly then the attack Vector becomes well someone just buys up all the atoms OTC from uh from Adam stakeholders or like somehow buy up their private keys or

something like basically you you could buy up all the items in the system uh in order to take over the chain well the the feedback mechanism the the I guess the feedback mechanism that not understanding okay yeah so I'll um okay so there's there's a there what's proposed is that forever um two percent of the Genesis amount of photons right so that constant fixed amount of photons forever every year being inflated to the state atom holders so already because of that if Photon succeeds atom succeeds but also you know this you know initially that will be relevant But as time passes and there are many many ICS State zones and

blockchains um a portion of the rewards that go toward the bonded Photon holders right that is securing those ICS zones should go to the ad staked atom holders so so there is there is a a essentially a royalty fee payment kind of system that always feeds back towards the atom holders and you know let's say this portion is initially you know let's say this this this this royalty fee tax whatever you want to call it is say 25 percent okay so 25 of the revenue being paid to the validators are securing that are chosen through Photon staking goes to the state atom holders that already means if there's enough Photon secured

zones through ICS then the atom the price of the atom will be greater you know the market cap of atom will be greater than you know just about any other ICS secured Zone I mean if you like to follow with this a little bit is so when you look at interchange security right now then you know there seems to be pretty good traction right in that there's like you know real interest from different projects I want to use interchange security why do they want that right because the cosmos help has a secure value data set it has a a big amount of um value that's being staked and that's kind of you know slashable and guaranteeing the security because the chain has been around for years and has functioned well

um and they want to kind of Leverage that right so I think the idea of saying like Okay we're using the atom Cosmos how valid or set we're using atom as the staking token for interchange security and to secure these other chains that seems like you know very straightforward and logical way for the cosmos Hub to sort of you know offer offer its security and and sort of validation services two other chains and you know monetize it now I think if you if you say there's another token that's being staked uh I mean I I think first of all I think that that

would not have the same appeal I think the other issue here is actually even if you take a little bit step back right I think um interesting security is actually seems to be pretty far right and going pretty well and and it's of course not designed with another token in mind now I guess you could you could launch something right that uses another token but it it's I I think that's that's not like a discussion even when you had all this white paper discussion right there's a lot of discussion around there Adam to white paper but I think this isn't this hasn't been something that I feel like has really

um yeah well that's why we're here um so uh so okay so like in this model of of ICS that you see happening right um um who are the validators are there more validators in the core Cosmos health validators or um or only values yeah so okay there's a there's definitely room for expanding the Constitution to allow a special case of interchange security that is that uses atoms like I mentioned before you know um here's here's kind of the problem um the the the distribution of of atoms of voting power and the validators is is

wildly different the top validator versus the bottom validator has has just you know orders of magnitude difference right so so here's my follow-up question in this interchange taking system you're talking about um do the validators volunteer to participate energy and security or or does everyone need to participate at once I I think in the beginning everything everybody needs to participate okay so this is the exception I was talking about the simple uh simple model of interchange security where the entire validator set is participating in other zones um okay I will I will edit the Constitution to add this exception for that case absolutely the atom token can

be used for interchange staking okay the problem is once you deviate from that and you have interchange State zones that are um that that allow for voluntary you know um then then you know it becomes impossible to ensure that there's any saying Nakamoto you know coefficient right it just becomes very difficult to ensure that and you can also so that's the that's the problem with deviating from everyone has to participate in simple replicated security the problem there's another way to do this with the atom token where you can say okay well um you can you can use atoms to stake on the cosmos Hub validator set or you can

use atoms to stake on interchange Security on these other blockchains this is um this was also discussed before you know and and maybe it's not being implemented right now but surely it will come into people's minds later right and the problem there is what I mentioned right that now you have atoms like 90 staked elsewhere 95 at stake to elsewhere only you know five ten percent stake on the on the cosmos Hub and and this destroys the invariant that we're trying to preserve which is that two-thirds of the atoms are staped in the cosmos Hub um and there's there there are there is room to to um to create you know solutions that try to mitigate um all the problems we've discussed including ensuring that the Nakamoto

coefficient is is well preserved interchange staking and I do think we should explore those and I think think I made a mistake in the current draft the Constitution to not add these okay but what what I'm describing with uh with the Constitution is you know an additional uh a different kind um an alternative uh interchange taking system that that requires the photon token really to work what are you what are your thoughts on mesh security and how how does how do these considerations play out when uh hubs or sorry zones are securing other zones uh bilaterally the the the the the new security uh concerns uh hold

up at that point um I I think Master security is is inevitable right so I do believe that you know eventually you'll have all these different hubs essentially that are that are securing each other right um and I don't know to what extent um the the only problem I have with that um narrative is that it's not sufficient as in you know if we're to choose between a hub and spoke model for uh for for you know Cosmos versus no Hub but just a bunch of meshes it's just a mesh um The Hub is is better than just the mesh system is what I'm trying to say so

you can have the Hub and spoke model with mesh security with other hubs you know you can have both but if you don't have um blockchains that are that function as hubs then then you have a problem okay the problem is that you know at some point you know always there will be issues where a blockchain fails and people are going to want to recover from this failure of the blockchain through through manual means by judging you know by looking at what actually happened and saying and determining okay we should all recover this way right um The Hub is where that you know the recovery decision should be um should be exercised enforced through

a singular place if you don't have a singular place that that is um that is um where this decision is delegated to you've got you know n number of blockchains that all need to act you know in this in the same coordinated manner manner and and that's basically impossible so you're yeah but isn't that just up to the market in the end I mean you can't force um you can't force change to you know build on the Hub I mean of course like the Hub will um will push for chains it will do like business development for change to to build there but people are building their own chains people are building Roll-Ups people are building whatever

whatever they want and it's it's it's not a given that things will um uh what kind of emerge in a hub and spoke manner well well um we we can learn from history of what has already happened in the failure to the financial system and and create a system that learns from that history or we can relearn the same mistakes so yeah I mean yeah if we just ignore the past and let the market build and and then yeah we won't have hubs perhaps and then and then there will be a failure that Cascades the entire ecosystem and then people will say holy like a bunch of these blockchains failed because of cascading issues we need a hub you know

so we can go that route no I mean I agree like things I think there are a lot of uh examples in nature and markets in sort of human coordination where uh things exist in a hub and spoke like way and you know one way one thing is like uh air travel and the other is uh like the internet right like the the architecture of the internet is essentially a hub and spoke um um kind of like a network of Hub and spoke like architectures and so maybe like maybe the market would just naturally uh form in this in this manner but it's not like uh yeah it's not a

given like I'd say well you know if what all we need to do is you know if if the Assumption if the if the um premises are true you know and and the conclusions are true then we just have to um we just have to communicate it and we just have to you know um to to show people this is why and then the Savvy investors The Savvy um you know creators will understand and they they will naturally Choose You Know A solution that has already thought of these issues you know um the problem is when when we disagree internally and we can't agree on um on what the division is right then you know we can't do that but that's that's also

the reason why we need a constitution that that lays out um what is the design you know which you know the the and and the reasoning can be written in the Constitution but I think it can be applied through commentary right and so it could be separate but um here I'll just you know that's one reason because it allows us to be cohere and coherent about you know what we are building which solves the problem that you mentioned the other thing is um look there's going to be there's going to be um Omnibus you know um a large changes being proposed like atom two all the time all the time um you don't want to be um refuting or or criticizing or you

know a pushing back against proposals you know every single time right it's much better to have a constitution where you can discuss division the North Star through the Constitution and then later to say anyone can then say wait a second this proposal doesn't meet the requirements of the Constitution it allows us to free our our our mind space you know yeah the Constitution is a is a plus is this a scope uh within which we can have conversations but I argue this in so the the the charter that was written and and posted to the to the uh to The Forum I argued that that Charter should have two things it should have values that are objective but we realize

we recognize that those values are not enforceable on chain and then it should have rules and those rules should be only enforceable on chain and anything else basically like in in such a document hasn't no value if you say something like oh Adam holder should do this or validators should do that as long if it's not enforceable by Chain on chain it literally adds no value to this this sort of document in the context of a blockchain I don't okay so I'll disagree with you and here's why um the value system um in the Constitution system you know the value is enforced by the Constitution allows you to have the Byzantine fault tolerance against any number of people who are trying to

subvert to the original values and what I mean is you know even if the cosmos Hub were to violate its own values with a bunch of actors who are you know quote unquote hostile right to the original values right as in a hostile takeover um and and succeed in taking over right it would still give um because of the you know the openness and transparency of blockchain and token distributions it allows anyone to then create a different Fork well if you know comprised only of people who abide by the values and that that is anti-fragile you can't stop that yeah no I I hear that point

um I just think that you know since values can change over time yeah we're we'd be in a situation where we'd be constantly like updating uh constitutions and I guess like that that's possible but and also other people can enter the system that this is don't misses because it's an open system and I think that one of the values should be kind of incredible neutrality and and uh resistance to censorship and if you have people who enter the system that don't necessarily adhere to those values like look there's lots of people on the internet that have different values they all use TCP they all use like the underlying Technologies of the web um even though they don't share uh they don't fundamentally show the same values and I think that blockchain should

strive at something similar you know the way to solve that is it was um what was the platform the way the way to solve that was the platform originally proposed by the cosmos Hub to allow anyone to create any blockchain even connected to the hub that that can function as a hub itself that has different values so I you know I in that sense I see um the the you know the desire to change the nature of a hub from its original design into more of a I would say more of a centralized thing um is is itself you know it's you know that's what bothers me the most about it is the Hub The Hub already provided the platform to allow you to create your own

experiment you know why why are you so so intent on changing the nature of something and creating a substantial risk when it wasn't necessary in the first place yeah I mean I I you know when I when I think back to um sort of the beginnings right of Cosmos and there was this idea of the cosmos Hub so my my understanding of that was at the time that with IBC okay you can have like direct connection you know I've chain a you can send an IBC packet to chain B but that this was kind of problematic for one reason right that let's say

you now have token some token that lands on a chain but it comes via a different route you know that then it's basically like not a fungible token um and you know other things like um you have to have way fewer connection right let's say there's like the cosmos Hub is connected to like 100 chains and you know some chain just connects to the cosmos up and all of a sudden they're kind of indirectly connected to all these different chains and you know that like upgrades would be easier and so there was I think a bunch of reasons uh given why this sort of idea of this IBC routing hub uh was powerful and and why their

husband's heart would would fulfill that role I think what we have seen is that hasn't happened right instead we basically had I think today right all of the IBC transfers are you know just Between Two Chains right we don't do this kind of routing through another chain um and and I think as a result of that not happening there's been kind of a question okay about what's the cosmos Hub good for like why does it exist and I think we've had interchange security right that has been kind of brought up as like well this is something that Cosmos help can do uh and that kind of makes sense right but it's quite different from what was the original

um Cosmo the original Vision you know that was an original white paper and and then there's like you know other ideas I guess for people like oh this is what the cosmos help can do this is the role atoms can play um so I I want to ask you Jay like where you see the overlap between atom one and atom two and this is a question that's been coming up in the comments uh what what where did these two proposals overlap and what is let's say like the compromise that um it's possible here yeah you know I mean we already made one compromise just in this discussion regarding uh interchange security through Adams

um and uh thank you for that I'll update the Constitution um and uh you know from my perspective I I definitely want the Constitution I want a constitution that preserves the original values whether or not it will pass you know we'll see through governance I want to see the governance happen right I want to see who's in who's for it and who's not I think that that just seemed that be very powerful I suspect it will pass despite everything which which I think a lot of people might be surprised by but I still suspect it will pass um what I want is uh for atom one to pass first you know but okay what I want is for out of one to be modified um through these conversations to

address all the concerns of atom one and then I want I want it to be addressed in such a way that what we want in atom 2 can be accomplished in you know within the framework of item one right um so then I want out of one to pass and then I want the modified atom two to pass as well if that makes sense right just as long as we have a constitution and we can secure the original vision and you know solve all these you know and preserve all the all the qualities that we want you know with all the justification it allows people to understand you know what is the utility of the atom why does it make sense you know why do we need a photon as long as people understand you know through a constitutional document

like Adam one then I think we will it will be much better off no matter what we do what's the likelihood do you think so I mean I've been following the item to discussion and then started following this discussion or at least like your your proposal here I don't see a whole lot of conversation happening between those two group groups maybe I'm missing that those conversations but it feels to me currently that the dialogue there's not a whole lot of dialogue or that dialogue is doesn't appear very constructive is that a good representation of what's going on um yeah you know honestly it seems like

there are there are two sides to this story right there are people who want Adam Juan and there are people who want Adam too hey you know and there's there's a mix too yes sure but it does seem like there's not enough conversation between the two and um I attribute that to honestly the Divergent visions of item one and out of two um and you know um so it's a tricky situation um I I do think that there needs to be more conversation uh around you know uh around both I've asked questions on the cosmos help Forum that you know last I checked wasn't answered for example um I'm happy to answer any questions by anyone but no one's asking me questions from attitude

um really um and and or if they if they have us I have answered but the conversation hasn't continued um and uh yeah well uh we'll see what happens right why why do you think um I don't know were you were you consulted or did you at all like your name's done in the atom 2 paper but at any point when the authors of this paper were writing it where you consulted or ask your opinion or any of this um no nothing at all nothing yeah you know there's there's this narrative that like you know I haven't been you know contributing anything I haven't been involved in Cosmos uh or development et cetera et cetera it's you know to some

extent true because I've been focusing on no land right but like the reason why I I got out of all the politics and discussions in the first place was because since it's the very beginning you know from my perspective there was there was a coordinated effort to remove me from conversations because people you know thought I was difficult or whatever because we had difference of vision and and this is the honest truth um I you know and and I have tweeted about it but whatever I don't want to dwell there right but this is this is my perspective I've been excluded um purposefully um uh because because of whatever reason honestly I think we're all being manipulated I think there's a lot of manipulation going on of all the actors

so I don't blame anyone individually I don't you know I don't scribe anything to any particular person but I see uh how we're being manipulated I see what the you know what the general direction of things are and I see that uh you know um so in that sense you know I think who do you think is doing this manipulation like who um here okay so this is the spicy part but yeah manipulating okay okay look look there are people who are hurt because of my behavior right I was I was I was um you know like I'm almost like too unyielding in some sense from the perspective of others because I have a

particular version and I want to see it executed and every time you know it deviates you know whatever and sometimes I'm not always available because honestly before I was doing so many things right and just getting burnt out I couldn't do everything on time you know on the other hand I get it I'm not always the most available and you know those are valid criticisms right so maybe maybe people are really upset about that I get it but I don't think it it you know all right here's what I think is going on the thing that you're alluding to right okay these are facts from my perspective and you can you're free to disagree but look there we're here to hear you out man all right um JFK was assassinated after he's he

said and there is a monolithic ruthless conspiracy that operates in the dark okay Senator McDonald this interview is not it's not even used to be found it's censored you're going to have a hard time finding it but it's it's linked to from the other one Constitution he literally called out specific organizations including the Rockefeller Foundation 1970 and said there is a conspiracy to very slowly introduce a global World Order literally said New World Order now what we have experienced through covid now if you if you look hard enough you will see if the facts are already out there that fauci um when he was head of NIH funded the Eco Health Alliance

and you know funded this gain of function to engineer you know covid-19 or covid-19 like viruses you know but if you listen to the whistleblowers such as the ones you know retweeted by kim.com and even before right it's pretty clear that that it seems like it Go Health Alliance is the one that created covet 19. okay so the covid-19 was engineered and then they came in and started enforcing mandates now which organization you know if you look at which organization altogether has been most like vocal in in the lockdowns you know um where the head of this organization

like boasts about having infiltrated Canada's cabinet you know and Canada was really locked down where you receive the members are the ones who are enforcing these lockdowns like Gavin Newsom in California right and Trudeau right even fauci okay um where they say where where they want you know not just the vaccines right and mandates but they want digital ID right and Central Bank digital currencies where look it's like this organization has been pushing Global control grid for

a long time and they've been executing it and they've even been boasting about it it's it's all out in the open okay so um if if they if if this group as a whole was able to stop the world through their vaccine mandate with the virus that they probably engineered right what what are they doing in blockchains because that's the other thing they're they're interested in controlling what where are they well you know I see hints of it before I joined back as CEO of aib this company was tweeting support for the world economic forum you know um I don't know where that came from but

I just see enough signs of it you know like this company gosh um while I was tweeting all these things nah God look I'm not going to go into the details all right I'll just say there seems to be there seems to be something going on more than what meets GI all right and and given given these you know the the facts of the matter right that they've even stopped the world I mean it's not surprising that they are swarming all over this place because Cosmos was the first to solve proof of stake and the out of one Constitution is the thing that is the alternative the financial system and the antidote to you know Global control

through Central digital currencies and digital IDs right so it's not surprising that they would have all their focus all over this place so I don't I'm not saying it's 100 true I'm just saying what if it is true what are the chances that it is true just consider it don't don't don't brush it off I'm not ascribing it to anyone but what if it is true and that explains what's going on we should be wary of it we should consider it some of the things that came up um yeah go ahead Brian no I mean I I just wanted to sort of because like you know you say any things and then there's like there's like some aspects where I'm like you know kind of like

in agreement on some level right like I mean for example you look at something like cbdc I mean this is like very clearly uh something that's being promoted I mean in the end like what is it about what it is about and creating tools for some kind of like totalitarian control and and I I don't believe there's some sort of you know including organ like explicit organization you know coordinating all this I think it is more something that like governments just have this natural tendency that they go towards they certainly have a habit of doing so

yeah and then well and then of course it doesn't was coveted created in a labrinod it doesn't even matter I mean maybe maybe not right but in the end like that kind of thing like what is the reaction to it right the reaction to it is okay we've got to like control this thing and then once he has some tools of control right they extend and and I think blockchain very much is you know about building you know an alternative um but yeah okay look at 1970s Senator McDonald talked about the Rockefeller foundation and the New World Order and a

very slow takeover for a global estate his plane got shot down days after you look at the Rockefeller Foundation and there look just look up the lock step scenario they put out a pamphlet with four scenarios and the first one to lock step one which they published before coffee came out is exactly pretty much what played out okay just consider these things I mean okay is there no conspiracy I mean the U.N you know the would-be global government says there's no conspiracy but that's pretty funny isn't it um these entities exist you know we know that secret organizations exist freaking the United States was founded by one

did you know that before George Washington there were other presidents in the Continental Congress some were even black George Washington was not the first one but we've we've been we've been you know we've been educated to forget the other things yeah I mean like I think my my sentiments Echo uh those are Brian when it comes to this stuff it's like I you know when it comes to to like covid for instance um I I do think that there isn't and uh and well I think my opinion changed about this over time right I think like at the beginning certainly there I think a lot

of people were in a very cautionary kind of uh stance and over time as we got used to uh the mass like the the ways in which we could protect ourselves from covid um vaccines Etc um I felt that there was a a lingering amount of control where at least where I was living in France that was unnecessary like too much control and like I got frustrated about this all the time but I feel like it is just an uh a function of states that they tend towards control more so than sort of this kind of idea that there are um nebulous organizations that hold the strings like you know the

puppet strings the proverbial public strings um have you seen the McDonald interview I mentioned no I don't know who that is okay well Senator McDonald look it up 1970. the thing is you can't even find it you know damage you can see for yourself that there's a censorship regime when you try to look for this video yeah okay maybe touching on this and I'm bringing this up because so many people ask me to bring it up and like you know when I went into this interview when I went into doing the research I had like I didn't know that this was a thing and so in in the comments in the tweets people shared these uh this GitHub repo which I'm sure I'm more I'm certain you know what I'm talking about

um I I'd like to give you an opportunity to maybe like to ask you how you feel about what people are saying regarding this GitHub repo and yeah yeah okay so right so so uh Jacob good again um has been has been posting um files from a repo that I shared with him a long time ago um there is a readme file a root readme file in the in the docs files folder that explains why I put the files there it says very clearly that I don't I don't condone any of these I don't I don't and they're provided as is here I can literally Read It For You Second

these files provided as is they were the ones I had saved from my research I cannot attest to the veracity of the information I do not condone hate or violence if half of what's here is true or relevant then Jesus is the way and the time is now a time of reflection and repentance else followed by the words of Allah Allah by the way is also Aramaic for God may he have mercy remember the last Great War showed that hate doesn't work it's yet another Triumph for Jesus that was the disclosure you know the the and there was another document too that

I could read you know but you know it says basically the same thing these are these files are what are shared in the fringes in conspiracy circles we can censor them and and pretend like they don't exist or we can try to learn what the conspiracy theorists you know what kind of theories they're talking about and help them dispel you know falsehood so that we all come to a conclusion about what is actually true and what is happening otherwise we're just forever going to be divided into camps and we'll be fighting ourselves without understanding why right so that so that's the that's the harm of censorship and that's what's going on today the reason why no land is being created is so we can have a censorship proof

discussion forum where we can actually you know experiment with ways to distill truth from all these crazy theories right and if there's any truth in any of those things then then we should you know consider what to do about it but we shouldn't just ignore it and shame people for sharing these things especially the way that it's been done out of context and calling me a Nazi what kind of Nazi says you know can you imagine Hitler saying I'm a spiritual Jew you know and and I support love over hate we shouldn't condone hate you know does that make any sense no what do you mean by what do you mean when you say that you're a spiritual Jew because I've seen that tweet but I don't know what it means okay well you know what it means is you believe you know

you have you you have you believe in a higher being you believe in purpose and a spirit that this heartbeat is trying to you know give us uh you believe in you know adherence to truth you believe that humans are flawed right but that we can we can listen to the words of the past that are distilled to help us and guide us the word of truth that was distilled through the past you know as much as you know a Genesis of the Bible is hard to believe I don't think that's really relevant because it's really more about you know the evolution of our understanding of the greater you know world in the greater universe and and the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament is really what I mean when I

say you know trust in Jesus Okay so um you know hope that answers your question it's about it's about you know there's a difference okay and I'll just kind of go over this because this is not you know super relevant to any of things the things we're talking about it has to do with my faith but I'm happy to share it in the Old Testament you know it whether you you know you you you you you you go to a heaven or whether whether you're safe whether whether you're you know where you are in the world and after depends on depends on you know what circumstances you're born into okay whereas in a new testament right

it's more about what you believe and and how you act right it turns it turns an exclusive system into an open system and allows anyone to participate as long as you can you can change your mind think different right the reason why the Apple logo is an apple bin and hanging on the logo was think difference because you know it's because of that we should all be able to change our minds about you know what should happen about the world we should see that this globalist system that is trying to control is is is is is not is not working in our favor we should see that we should be able to forgive people you know and and understand them give them a chance

right no matter who you are cool I think that was a nice uh nice way of uh yeah coming to this um yeah I appreciate you I appreciate uh you clearing some of that up and uh at least you know yeah setting your records straight from from your perspective I think a lot of people will will appreciate to hear that and I think some people will probably also want to take this and um um and uh use it against you some people use it um in your defense uh but at least it's coming from your mouth and not someone else's yeah well happy to be part of some controversy you know I think out of

this ultimately there will be good it'll be painful in the beginning as we go through this stuff but I think what will come out of it is is more light than anything else thank you for the platform yeah I wanted to maybe talk about one thing briefly because I think I saw it mentioned in some of the chat here I saw it also mentioned in you know in in the in the discussion forum discussion in like many places it's basically about what about the ICF and the uh the funds of the ICF and should the icf's funds we use for that uh so I mean you can provide maybe a little bit of context here since uh for those who don't know I'm I'm on the on the board or the council or Foundation Council of the ICF so basically like

the ICF does have a substantial amount of money and and almost all of that budget is going for like Cosmos core development you know there's things like tenement Cosmos SDK IBC uh interchange security basically those kind of things are is kind of where where the budget is going towards it's definitely true that transparency is inadequate of the ICF at this point right and not enough is published about how the money is being spent uh this is something that's been you know kind of like a work in progress I think a big challenge has just been that uh there's a lot of chaos that's been going that have been going on you know

like on the staff team and uh and I think that there was the executive team was kind of very lacking and so there were a lot of issues that basically just meant that there was like so many issues to deal with that like doing proper transparency it was is kind of like uh the foundation just hasn't done a good job in and I think that's definitely something that will get better um so yeah so I just wanted to basically like okay where does the funding go to it basically goes to those things you know or for with the vast majority and and so I think for example if you look at the item two in this treasury thing like you wouldn't the ICF wouldn't be able to like fund such a thing even if

we ignore like the legal challenges that they might be with it you know without having to cut back on a lot of the funding for koi development that's happening today so I do I do think that when it comes to for example if people want something like the allocator or where you have basically a large pool of funds that's like controlled by governance and like deployed in this way I think the only sensible way to do it is through you know some kind of inflation mechanism right whether that's uh changing the community pool tax or or the way it's proposed now to basically

have uh you know governance vote on you know minting atoms and then you know putting it into some other governance mechanism and I think uh yeah there's obviously a lot of questions about how would the other governance mechanism work and how it would be controlled and like is obviously going to be a huge amount of work that needs to go into that so that people feel like this is comfortable and done in a good way but yeah I just wanted to provide you yeah yeah okay thank you for that that's really important Point um Okay so um uh I think the inflation yeah should go to the community pool if any right um

there's I think uh some inflation makes sense but it should be part of um um uh yeah yeah okay it should be part of a of a of a white paper it describes various things you want to do yes that's true um but I don't think it is it should be the atom token I don't think we need it to be the item token I think 20 you know the amount proposed first of all was way too high and now like people there's some consensus that okay that number needs to change sure but look look at the item one Constitution proposal um we don't even have to inflate any atoms okay first of all here's a yeah here's a point that I want to mention that I forgot to mention part of the reason why there was an initial atom you know inflation was to

fund for various things but also it was part of a story to create a deflationary token right so I've been saying okay we should we shouldn't think of it that way we should we should focus on keeping two-thirds bonded onto Cosmos hub and even still even though the inflation rate is exponential today what the cost what the atom one Constitution does is it allows the inflation rate to go to zero and even negative okay because if there's enough Revenue being earned through staked atoms too many people will bond right so it might even be like 80 90 well we need to bring that back down to two-thirds 67 for there to be a market of atoms so the the

inflation rate might even go negative okay all right so that's the Adam's story going back to the photon token we're creating a new token and we have an opportunity to create a inflation a certain amount of those tokens going to going to the common pool right without violating any any prior you know uh social contract you know implicit or explicit regarding to Cosmos Hub we have a chance to do this why not take it right so um the photon token you know after Genesis 20 of what is created through the burn uh will be inflated and go to

the cosmos uh we'll go to the uh the common pool and from there you know we can use governance to use those tokens however we want so so I think this addresses on the points that that you were referencing cool um but you also said something you said um [Music] um yeah well I had I had maybe a follow-up question here and and that is um related to to aib and tenement so in the last months oh sorry can can you can

you put that on hold for a moment yeah yeah sure okay regarding the ICF right okay um yes it's true that the ICF um it can't do certain things right it's going to be hard for it to do certain things sure um but uh even if it can't put money in a dow right and allow you know the blockchain to do its thing with you know uh even if regulations don't allow that what we can do is go ahead and create um a dow systems accountable transparent Dow systems that you know that function um with you know with roles and admissions right and and that allows people to to to to make decisions and

and keep people accountable um even if it doesn't have any money to spend it can have essentially you know proposals for how to spend that money and it can allow the ICF to be the ultimate um a token holder with veto power right on on the cosmos hub and and this is laid out in the out of one Constitution it allows for any Dow system to to function however it wants and be you know official Dows treasury Dows of the cosmos hub and it also allows for there to be an M of n you know um address which can be comprised of you know interchange Foundation members where where they only release funds if

they believe that the decision to proposal is ultimately proposed by the Dow are good right so this this should be able to unlock a whole bunch of the uh the the tokens in the ICF if the ICF you know should agree to do this and allow us to see um how decisions are made transparently so anyone can see you know the transparency of it and and to be able to make suggestions and also you know the narrative here is that um the ICF is funding for you know different Dow systems and and user experiences we need to do a lot of that in order to create any complex dial system if you want really anything to do with if you want atom two we need this in the first place anyways and we're not

there yet so why don't we focus on allowing that to happen and here's a way to do it with the with the funds of the ICS ICF so the question I was asking was really related to uh I aib so for for context so aib is the company uh that operated uh the tendermint team so it was like branded as tenderbent but the company was aib um in the last year uh it was rebranded as ignite and then um it was announced earlier later that ignite the ignite team would um would kind of fork off as its own team and that a new company new tenderment would come into existence or

at least a new team operated under IB now um since then a lot of the a lot of the team that was previously working at ignite was um was laid off or allowed to leave or asked to leave and um so that's yeah that I think for context here um so aib was also allocated uh the same amount of atoms as the ICF it was 10 so this was in the founding documents in the Genesis documents um what do you plan to do with these atoms and how can they also be used say like you know in uh

in a way that uh helps Propel The Hub forward sure yeah um so first of all if you look at the planned document for the cosmosov fundraiser um it says it shows that the tenement um is is given atoms that unlock over two years right and then the reason why tenderness because the tournament by that point had already created tenement core and and a white paper and all these things so like it's it's more like tenement already earned it by that point it's the ICF in the planned documents that you see that has a mission that has it's given atoms for a purpose it's also the ICF that is a stiff tongue a foundation not a not a tax deductible

non-profit Foundation but its mission is non-profit right so it's the ICF that really should be answering these questions and being transparent whereas you know arguably um uh all in this this company this for-profit company should be free to do whatever it wants but I'll be transparent about this I'll let you know sure um yeah the ignite team is going to spin out as ignite right um it's going to be its own company and there's a there's a mechanism of funding to enable um uh to ensure their you know sustenance and for them to to to succeed and doing their thing I don't want to say too much about what they're doing you you kind of know what they're doing

with the uh with uh you know uh right there are projects that allow for anyone to create you know launch a new chain using their Dev tools right um new tenement likewise is spinning out right so tendermint the brand and the IP you know we'll go to new tournament four um to be managed by by this entity um which is also going to be the the the steering entity behind no land right so the IP that was developed for no land is is being contributed to this new tournament company um but the majority of the funds and the atoms that remain in all in bits which you know by the way is now called all in

bits again officially business name-wise um we'll go back to the shareholders you know it's it's got shareholders it's got shareholders with very different ideas of you know what needs to happen and um and and and it's time that we create you know we we split into bits right and we give shareholders they're due just what they want they really want to see their atoms so this was a compromise um that was designed after we had to you know uh have reduction in force because there was a huge crash in the cosmos out of token right okay so so shareholders of all them bits will essentially be kind of like

given at like paid atoms in proportion to their share uh their their stakeholding as though it was some sort of dividend but receiving receiving basically diluting uh dissolving those atoms out into the shareholders yeah for more than you know for for the majority of of tokens yes exactly there will be more token distribution events like we had already before okay well uh we're we're on we're almost at an hour and 45 minutes here um uh we are very uh thankful for you staying this long with us and being so open and forthcoming um you know one final question that was asked here in the chat um and I think is a good question to end

on is what's your vision for the success of Adam and maybe a follow-up to that or you know if you could add in there is where does where does no fit no fit in all this so you know if if atom 2.0 moves forward let's say um what what will become like where will no live will live as an ICS chain will it live as its own chain will aim to be a competitor to Adam um yeah um for me success for Adam looks like the cosmos Hub um adhering to its original vision of providing token transfers and scalable token transfers you know for for itself and many blockchains that connect to it

um being you know as minimal as possible it's reasonable right but still allowing for Innovation to happen permissionlessly around it right um without it um plausibly becoming uh another you know Federated government with its own you know Federal Reserve not another one of those things that are too big to fail right but rather a foundation upon which you know if you have a better idea for a hub if you want to innovate a pawn you know and create something new then you you know it becomes launch pad for new hubs to to emerge new zones to emerge right so this this sort of big bang upon

which variations can occur permissionlessly right including a lot of things that we want in Adam too but fundamentally becoming the thing um the network the root of the network that becomes the thing uh that is used to buy your coffee right for your for your uh for your uh from my parents to buy a coffee you know it'd be amazing if they can use you know all the software that we created whether or not it's on the Hub probably won't be on the Hub but we'll be on an ICS Zone even if it's not on an ICS Zone you know if it's on an ICS Zone that is uh secured by a hub that is derived from

the cosmos Hub and connects to Cosmos Hub that's a success right um with regards to no land um it's not it's not trying to solve the same problem at all it's trying to be like GitHub for for no smart contracts so uh it's not competing with the Hub in that sense it doesn't want to solve that problem because it's got enough problems of its own right and it has its economic model of its own through uh IP license fees but it will also connect to other chains you know for the purpose of uh enabling into no smart contract virtual machine and ecosystem right so uh will it be hosted by ICS the root chain

probably not not for a while unless it becomes you know solid and and there's a there's a clear need to but I think I think we have enough of an economic a picture an economic model for it to not require it so we'll see you know I'm open to it I just don't think it's something that's priority but there will be for sure I CS you know if ICS succeeds there will for sure be ICS secured zones that are running no land smart contracts in the middle on VM that also connect to no land and pays a license fees back to it and imports code and so on so I see I see a symbiosis between a financial backbone and an application

backbone you know and I don't think Nolan is going to be the only one you know I I think there are so many other languages where we can create something like Noland right every language that you know is going to have its own Niche you know of users so they will all be separate you know systems foreign yeah thanks for uh allowing me here on this platform it's been a pleasure um and uh looking forward to the next one in a few years right well maybe not in a few years uh maybe maybe uh maybe you know we need to make conversations a

bit more more often for sure um thank you Jay for joining us today and for uh for being so generous with your time uh being also open about some of the the tougher questions uh that are not always easy to you know to to address uh also thank you Brian for for joining me as as a co-host here on on the interrupt very happy that you um you also stuck around my pleasure yeah and hopefully uh we can do this again sometime too um and thanks to all of you for joining the interop uh we were consistently about 130 people in the live stream so I think it's probably one of our most successful live streams so far uh if you like the work that I'm doing

please consider subscribing and uh tune in for new live streams every week so we'll see you next week