ZKPodcast: Jorge Izquierdo talks Aragon and DAOs

Transcript

[Music] welcome to zero knowledge a podcast where we explore the latest in blockchain technology and the decentralized web the show is hosted by me Anna and me Fredrik [Music] in this week's episode Anna sits down with Jorge from Aragon to discuss his work on the project the history of da OS and the challenges and potential of these new organizational entities before we start we want to say thank you to

this week's sponsor Apple Graf epigraphs platform is designed to break down barriers reward researchers and promote open science institutions and for-profit publications put a high price tag on much of the world's best research even when that research is funded by the public this hinders professional communication it constrains data analysis and it slows the rate of scientific progress as a whole to counter this Apple graph has built an extensive collection of open access research papers on cryptography distributed computer systems and blockchain if you are a researcher who'd be interested in having a profile in such a system or if you'd like to subscribe to a specific researchers work please check

out welcomed Apple graph do we've added the link in the show notes so thank you again Apple graph now here is our interview with Jorge so today I'm sitting with Jorge from Aragon 1 and we're gonna be talking a little bit about Aragon the structure of Aragon the Aragon courts all sorts of cool stuff and I think Jorge is an amazing guest to have on to also touch on the topic sort of generally of dowse something we haven't really covered that much there is one episode that we did do on the the Dow with Griff Greene which I'll put in the show notes that might be an interesting

one to check out before this one but yeah anyway Jorge welcome to the show yeah thanks for having me ana super excited Jorge what are you working on I'm the one of the cofounders of the Arkham project and currently work at Aragon one which is one of the one of the teams working on Aragon cool what is Aragon Aragon is a project that is making Jesus organisations happen Saudi argon client is this way to create a managed decentralized organizations but we're also working on on the Aragon network that we call it like like a digital jurisdiction for firdaus in a way which is providing sovereign doubts with some

of the services that they wouldn't get from not being a part of the traditional legal system cool I'm curious what were you doing before this so before this recently I used to be an iOS app developer and I had multiple jobs within this at some point I stopped working for the company I was working for and I was back in Madrid thinking about what to what to do next and my co-founder Luiz he was also moving moving away from his current company and he told me about his this idea that he had for a company and we immediately teamed up on it and we we moved over to to to Silicon Valley to kind of work on it and fundraise for the

firt idea that idea was kind of shifted quite quite a bit and we ended up building like this crowdfunding platform to fight patent trolls so if there was like bad patents that could be used to harm companies that do you have a patent because you bought it from a company that was going bankrupt or directly having companies that file totally stupid patents they can then take that pattern and try to extort other companies that do something barely related to what's in the patent so we were building a crowdfunding platform for that and we like to take down specific patterns and we figured that or the people that wanted to use it weren't that interested in like throwing

down specific patents because they never knew what what type of pattern like what specific pattern could hurt them and they wanted insurance and at that point we started playing around with the idea of building an insurance vehicle directly on any theorem and we went pretty pretty pretty down the rabbit hole and that was super super interesting but apparently like lunch in an insurance we go has like a lot of I know yeah yeah building making the same work on a theorem was like not super hard but then there was like a lot of other things and at that point we had gotten ourselves like very familiar with with the theorem and we decided to to convert it into what today's are gonna

focus focus on that okay so now let's talk about Aragon what year is this what what year did you start thinking about Aragon yeah this was the fall of 20 2016 okay did you write a white paper did you do kind of the classic yeah I mean when we started thinking very seriously about the about the idea we did some some brainstorming and then Luis started writing a white paper but right until actually the first white paper it was very interesting because more than it was kind of like a products packing away it was like okay we want to do this decentralized organization of things and what are the features that that we need okay we need identity for the people

here we need a way to have shares or token management to give people interests economic interest in Andorian ization we need a way to track finances and so it was like okay these are the things that we would need but then immediately we set out to build the the building product the first prototype we did that in like three months we were to a point that we were comfortable with this and kind of showed it to to the world we put it on on d-r-e theorem read it and that was that was super fun and then like a month after that we launched the lui launched a product first alpha and people were already using it so that original white paper was kind of just okay this is the one the motivation behind the idea and

this is how how we can do it and we can do it now but the PERT you actually proved it a little bit more with his MVP okay so what what did you do next one like when did you do this sale the sale was seen later like the next year like him in may May 2018 17:17 good timing did you what was that like yeah I mean the the moments before the sale because at the end of the day we we were the smart contract for for managing the sale and that was like when it started we had like our monitoring tools so we could see how it was going but indeed like the ten minutes before that people were already trying to contribute to it it it started getting very very

stressful and today is leading up to it was like a lot of a lot of work they I did end up going well we didn't get hacked everything everything moves smoothly people got their dirty tokens and actually a lot of people told us there were already a lot of crazy sales going on like nothing as it would go after but it was I like a pretty boring boring sale like everything just just work people got their tokens and that's twenty twenty five million dollars lower I guess back then a yeah you what said $90 expected so then you had funds what

I've never I've never really understood what Eragon is exactly so yeah why don't we start with like what is the toolkit so at the at the top level there's the diagram project and slash the Oracle network that's you different people call it which is like a project or a tile with mission of making decentralized organizations happen so anyone in the world can can use these dis technology and for this we like the main product that we build the Argonne client which is digital the web app that people use to create and manage these these organizations so that's like the main product that no we built and this gets built by different teams we had this this idea from the early beginning that

we didn't want to I mean it doesn't really make sense to have a decentralized team in charge of this decentralized technology if something were to happen to three team someone should be able to carry the detours forward so we decided to rather than just grow in one organization horizontally and and hire a lot of people to keep have multiple teams working on the project that can have different technical problems from different different angles we're all working for the vertical product so our gondwana team that I that I work for were 17 people right now and we kind of want to get it to 25 maximum we don't really want one team to be

massive we would my very much rather have like three teams as we have right now with the smaller number of people than just one big organization that becomes harder to to manage and to what I don't fully get here is like how would you fund other teams or the other teams also funded by the same like from the same pool okay so there's the on top right now in charge of the project there's this ad top-level entity that's the Oregon association okay this is the entity that owns the the defense of the of the project that is in charge of basically giving money to different teams and different projects so that the mission of Oregon it's it's the good guy

way for the Oregon association we have this this process that we call the IEP process which is the Oregon governance proposals and this is him this was created in November 2018 that's when AGP won t be a GP that governs how how say two piece work was voted in by ent holders and establishes a process by which every three months there's an r1 at work both in which people can propose em anything that they want to do with the project or across just four four different tracks one of them is Finance which is okay let's find this team or this fund this project others are like Association which is like more for the policies of the

organization or like a proclamation which is like the network saying okay this is like the official part party of the of the network so in this way when teams want to apply for funding they just create an AGP and then the AGP gets put out to a boat by NT holders and if int holders approve it then the our own Association we'll take care of executing that that proposal who who's in the Association like does the Association also hold since they hold a lot they get to vote as well no it's the Association doesn't doesn't vote okay doesn't know the the Association has a bunch of A&T as well but the Association doesn't doesn't

participate in in a GPS okay that's interesting mm-hmm the idea of a Dao a decentralized autonomous organization in the case of Aragon seems to permeate through like every level it's not only there's a tool set for you to build a Dao but the DAO tool set is built by a dowel like that kind of goes all the way up yeah and we operate with solar all our tools were the first ones to use them the whole ATP process is right on when Aragon and then the different teams that work for the project for example r11 which is like a normal company we use arguin for managing or the company like the

day-to-day operations like directly from the tower even if it's like there's a legal entity that is responsible for that we're still using using the product for that like is there an Aragon - or is there like we sort of mentioned there's a Association and there's Aragon one but who are the other groups or are they study the are there open slots there yeah the the other groups are that are right now they're called dark which is these team led by by Java and then there's our golden our own black are gone black yeah okay so there's already like three groups and they've received their funding from the AGP process and if there is there like a runway I guess for each one of these yet

so it seemed can create their own their own proposal then how it's been working that Hawk for four new teams is that they've been requesting file name.for for six months and then after that that six months are or where they will do another another funding proposal so for example we've we thought arc they got six months for six months of funding in the Aragon Network boat number one in January I'm 10 in G in the network mode 3 in July they requested one year of funding and they would have proof ok cool ok so we have these so I can kind of see this you have an overarching Association you have the three groups underneath is each one of these groups building like a client are they all

building the same thing how does like maybe start with like what does Aragon one building yeah that's a that's a great question I mean Aragon one was a a year ago it was really the only the only team so err ago we were building basically everything and right now what we are mostly focused on yourself building t declines itself and the core applications for for running organizations so that goes from the onboarding to D to client and so we're we're working on that quite a bit we're also leading the development of the of the Aragon network and the our home court right now yeah we collaborate

a lot with without our especially on T on the client side and then Aragon black right now it's mostly focused on Aragon fundraising which is this application to allow dowse to directly friend ways themselves what's a dark building what are you building this super interesting set of apps that's called open Enterprise out so these are like four or five apps that you get to install in your organization and you you can manage bounties directly in the entire organization they also built its TT an application with a different voting mechanism in which people can not only put on binary decisions that say like express their preference for different

options with like basically like percentages and then that can lead to many people voting and splitting money proportionally for for many initiatives or issues and we have a team that is running their own bounties for github issues on open enterprise right now so that's that's really exciting and then they're also doing a bunch of infrastructure work for in the in the client and leading some some of the efforts behind identity and now there gonna tackle finance or all of these daps or are they concepts like are they kind of like legal are they are they kind of legal structures that are created or are they all technology they're all

technology they're I don't know you and are they old apps they're kind of taps that run inside the Aragon client so we we built we built Aragon in a pretty modular way this rather than building for a very specific type of organization structure like other projects do like okay this is this is a way that we think that people are one want to organize or that we want to organize and we're gonna build this code specifically for this we took a modular approach it more like we're not sure how people are going to want to organize but we know that these are this is the way that we could model it so that other people could build any governance model on top of this and decide how to build their organization

kind of like like Legos so for this we created it's a kind of module system inside the inside the arc inclined so developers can build their own aragón application so when we learned we had like these three core apps so there's a Bodeen tokens for membership I'm finance to manage take the organization assets but then for example now Oregon black has worked on fundraising and taken to spell like that that that app and then organizations can add that app to their to their organ right and they take an organization that just had like very basic functionality and now it can find ways and they could also install like open Enterprise and start giving out

work to a bunch of open source contributors so it's kind of this modular approach in which people get to really build the organization however the one without involved in writing any code or as much as minimum code as possible but does it does it live on etherium still like aunt isn't ERC 20 you know does the and that's why I'm just kind of curious with these all like smart contracts or they or are these like web applications that are kind of linked a little bit to a blockchain no sodas are like totally very kind of like little debts then in with in Aragon they have a smart contract component that is using argon OS and it's part of the organization and then there's like also G front-end

component of the of the DAP so kind of what it what it looks like it's a do you get it on the on the sidebar with all the apps that the organization has and you can just add at different apps so it's kind of like a little App Store for organizations okay so now I think we have a bit of a picture of the airgun world and some of the products is Aragon also doing advocacy or some sort of like are you are you guys working on like understanding legality of some of these systems or like developing the contracts that would work in them as well so we're like none of the Aragon teams are directly working on this as a product at that we provide we're not we don't want

to turn ourselves into a law firm that would be that would really suck so but Adair there are people from the from the community that are very like link in Aragon organizations to real world entities this project called open esq the day they opened up t the first LLC that was actually controlled by by a Tau like this early this year so that was the first time that we saw and a Tau become like controller legal entity so that was pretty pretty exciting but this is something that we're not really working towards at this in a terrible one so or Aragon as a network also has this nest program and this block program

is that the same as the a GPS that you're mentioning before so D flow program you see what we're talking before about different teams that work in Aragon getting getting funding that's that's what and he goes through datp process and then we have nice twisties which is a Grants program for smaller smaller projects of people working on uncle things for on arguin or aetherium so those that the nest program is also for projects maybe that aren't in any way working on Dow's but just happen to use a dau or projects that you think are useful for the ecosystem yeah so when when we say with witnessed we we did keep more grants to more generally theorem

infrastructure for example we we gave recommend to two-person attic labs that work in Ghent like on a theorem charting and now it's working on day two in under in only two planned and a bunch of other key theorem infrastructure like a native transaction signer for for for the desktop but now we were like the last one said we've given our to people working on uncle things on our con so for example there's these there's this project and I'm helping out that they're calling it empowered it out so they use like this piece and Aragon does it's called the agent that allows it to interact with other protocols and

they're building an integration with with compound so that GDL can lend their its assets on compound and also unit or manatee and enzymes so we're having like this projects building integrations or or cool south or for example there's level k building a future key up for for argon so super super exciting let's talk now a bit more generally about douse because I think I mean Aragon is a project in itself but there are other days out there and I'm really curious kind of like what you make of it so when I start off with like a really mini history of douse and like where you see it starting and maybe some examples along the way yeah yeah I think you can take it back to like and talk about how

Bitcoin is it's kind of a towel use it's like totally autonomous organization that is not run by anyone in particular so it's centralized and it kind of has a mission to continue producing blocks and secure blocks and you have people all over the world working for furthest out to secure to secure the network so I think that's kind of a real revealed out but I think the Dow that made it made the term well known was like D tau D tau in 2016 so yeah this was a very very interesting tau it was like a for-profit because Ted acted kind of as a as a PC on the on the blockchain so it rains

raise a bunch of money that and Dave everyone got super excited it it got to raise a crazy amount and because everyone was so excited the price of Heath was also going going up he had some game theoretical issues that some people put it out in the Dow moratorium and they like people were not we're not even voting in in proposals because they were a bit scared about these issues that were being pointed out and eventually it was like someone posted on reddit I think the Dow is getting trained and it was it was indeed getting getting trained we're so far over back that it was in the Dow in in the code that allowed people to kind of create their

own child house to live through the Dow so yeah this is this was in summer of 2016 that then led to the whole ithi room classic drama and TD fork so yeah I think then after that the term Dow got like a bit of a bad rep and but I think like especially these years when we're starting to see that people are being way more open and excited about Dallas again and I think that's that's really recall anything it's only going to gonna increase in the next next few years when people are like when we start getting

again big house with a lot of with a lot of people making being like big began to descend this place what are some examples of Dallas today that you think are kind of exciting like other projects that sit on a Dow or that are in themselves just a dow yeah I mean I think ourselves are it's one of the best examples of Alpha Tau operating as a like in a centralized way then there's a gap projects like Moloch and a lot of people are excited about which is kind of like a crunch sound which like people have have donated so some they're coordinating around different

goals that they want to want to accomplish his Moloch built using arrogant stuff or is it like did they build it themselves yeah mark took the approach of building it themselves in them like they wanted a very simple mechanism that worked for their particular mission of what they wanted to do and they build it that's not good to do that but just just in a very specific way which has the issue that if you want to use it for slightly different thing you probably need to end up rewriting a lot of al article but I think it's it's good that for that particular use case they they came up with with a pretty interesting mechanism

and we're actually now building some of the some of the ideas that malohkeh implemented and building them as modules style of Aragon Aragon Taos can can use then it was meta cartel that is a fork of Malin and they did some changes I guess to that as well or just the numbers I I think that he dared using the exact same same same codebase hey it's a pretty similar idea for for did for the Dow what about something like DX Dow or DX is not how you say it DX Dow I think so yeah do you know anything about I I haven't followed it's super super super closely but I think the idea is that there was these exchange that did

that that accent and they handed over the control today's to this now and it's in charge of deciding what tokens to get listed and some other decisions about the about this change I'm not a member of T of detail myself I remember I had a friend who pinged me and was like super excited about it was like wow look at this in action it's like you know it actually has voting and like there's a huge percentage of people participating and it's super decentralized then I also heard that like after a bit of time there was like a form of centralization or cartel like behavior that formed and maybe this can actually like this is something I think we would be really good for us to talk about like what does

it mean to game a Dow well there are many many ways you can you can game it out the most terrible attack the one that I'm the most scared about is 51% attacks so the way that this work is imagine that you have an organization in which you have simple majority vote in for doing anything so if the majority if there's about in the majority of the organization a quiz to do something it has total control over the organization so send all the money somewhere else so you can have someone malicious that if anyone can create proposals and there's nothing at stake that says okay I propose that we move all of this money in the organization to a smart contract

that is gonna split all the money in the organization between everyone that boats jets in the proposal so with zero costs to D to the attacker you can have this way to disrupt the organization and a supporter and did really nor jernard risk in anything like if anything if the attack happens and it actually passes and you didn't you didn't vote for it you're actually gonna get you're getting burnt so the rational thing may be to just purchase in that way you're you're voting to kind of distract the the organization and this is the crazy thing is that he has like totally zero zero

cost to the attacker and it's something that cannot happen in the interview world in illegal companies because you do have fiduciary responsibilities and if someone will do that then there would be people that go to jail or there would be in the deep travel but with the centralized organizations you kind of really act after the fact if someone does this attack then that's that's it the money has moved and you cannot really you cannot really stop this so this is a problem that we're working on on solving with this concept called proposal equipments so the idea is that organizations could have subjective rules for what proposals are valid and which propose a certain ballot and also

try to encode what the values and mission of the organization is and this is something that you really don't want to right in code so you write that down in in English or whatever whatever language and then when people are making proposals if someone doesn't doesn't think that that proposal should be valid for the organization they just don't think it's a bad proposal it's like invalid you this is something that cannot happen you cannot take the money is still a money for subset of members of the organization that's just kind of illegal so we have the the Erawan someone can challenge that and put it to the our home court which is a network of yours that will look at the tea they will look at the evidence they will look at what

the rules for differentiation are and make a subjective judgment on whether that proposal was even valid in the first place wait this is the Aragon court yeah and you send this off to jurors the terminology are using their interesting so what's the court so there's these the argon court is a protocol of the Aragon Network so d j DF D of the court is have a way to do dispute resolution on subjective subjective issues like that's this proposal follow the rules of the organisation for making proposals because before there's a lot of subjective judgement in running an

organization that just like it's impossible for a smart contract to see like a proposal to move all the money of the organization because there's a bag and we want to move it somewhere else and a proposal to move all the money to this contract that splits it between all the attackers like the same it's exactly the same it's just the D intent and what's behind it and this is something that the computer cannot just cannot compute and make a make a decision so this is why we have to include this subjective mechanism with the with the our one chord this is like a very simple protocol which you have a set of jurors that are staking the court and every time that there's a dispute a

random set of jurors get sampled and they're asked okay what do you think how do you think this should go this is valid or invalid they boat their superior being which everyone can appeal the decision and get more jurors involved but if there are no appeals then that decision gets get trained and gets sent back to the organization saying okay this proposal is valid or invalid is that who is the jurors like are they just token others or well the jurors are people that want to work for this so days take D they say tokens and become become jurors and they have a risk of being slashed and if they don't support the winning rollin of a dispute so yeah they're just people that want to work on this to get slashed if

they don't support a winning and ruling do you think that can the court be gamed so in DV one of the of the court there's this idea that we want to have kind of decision finality in a in a reasonable amount of time because we don't want proposals like disputes just going over like months months so we have kind of this soft limit around one month in which we want to solve a dispute so if if a dispute starts getting appeal there's just a number of Appeal grounds that it can go they can go over and after that there's like this final appeal final appeal round and we take all of the active jurors in the court

get we get selected and ask okay this is good and like very very far into here so we're just gonna get everyone involved because this may be a like a network the octane judgement yeah so now with that getting to that point is actually pretty expensive in every appeal step like to parties into a posse to collateral and different different possible rulings but if we get so that to a point it's like didn't they just say what's attachment of the of the entire network and that if it if it gets to a point it's very unlikely that teen network would decide to not vote for the correct ruling if everyone was involved

but that that would be like the the most challenging part but there's there's this research that we haven't doin and will make it four for v1 of rather than just resolving at that point if people are still disagreeing with what the like the majority of the jurors in the court thought the rule engine was basically open a few turkey market and say okay we we have these two possible universes there's the universe in which the court says the ruling was a and this universe in which the ruling was B what would be the price of tea in both cases and then I prediction market is open for both and you take the one in which the universe

in which surprised int would be greater because the price of int should go down if the if the court is making bad bad rulings because I will impact like future fees and jurors not joining the court so yeah that's that's something that will not make it for everyone but will make decor much less difficult game Wow and this is this crazy that you've actually recreated a court system like this did you expect to be doing this when you were starting out yeah I mean it was kind of kind of obvious that if we really wanted to make sovereign Taos really work and these are cows that are don't have a link to real world they're

not really an and I will see you're a c-corp that gets interacted with like this innate interface they're really like detail only exists in encode and indeed like under the under blockchain that we would need some of these services that the real world has and dispute resolution and arbitration is like a huge huge thing because there's like so many subtlety is that you just don't want to code into a smart contract not even that you could but it's like really really hard so it was kind of kind of obvious that if we really want to discover in the house to exist we need a way for for resolving subjective disputes that come from people dealing

with people but does this mean that there's now gonna be like Douw lawyers maybe I hope that we make it simple like that is simple enough so that people can is deal with it without having to involve involve lawyers but yeah it could could definitely could definitely happen people that specializes in just like writing dudes manifesto so at the court will understand and then making the case to D to record yeah well I mean if you look back in history and how legal systems developed like if you want to look at ancient Rome or something it started out quite simple and then what would happen is there'd be an edge case and that a new rule would be created and written down somewhere and then that

would happen over and over and over again and then big shifts in like mood or like there'd be new ideas that have flourished and the laws that existed needed to be rewritten and what you ended up with even then was this very complicated legal system that only few people were expert at and I do wonder for not seeing like potentially the beginnings of that here yeah and this is to think there were one of the big projects that were focusing the most that a terrible one is getting the this v1 of the ER network with the our home court ready for for the end of the year do you think like in the Aragon toolkit though can like say I want to Dow would I also create a court no you can you can just seem you can just see our own court

of the of the network so they the way that it's been designed is that when you have a child you could choose which who is your your Oracle for dispute resolution and that could be the our home court that D network we say ok this is our chord but someone could fork the court and just something else or just go with a simpler mechanism which you say okay we're gonna get this person or this Tautou it to decide decide here so it's totally possible that people use so there are calls but the darren court will be d like a good default Wow and it's interesting here because you kind of you're you're thinking of an Oracle like in this case is an Oracle of jury

weird right yeah yeah definitely I mean from the Taoist perspective it just needs okay who is like I just need this entity to tell me what to do because I cannot resolve this with my with my code so yeah our long cord is a is a subjective Oracle that involves humans and jurors and like an appeals process to get to a final ruling but at the end of the day say and and a jury Oracle yeah can do you have another example of sort of a way that a doubt could be gamed and then maybe we could even like it would be interesting to see like how would that be used how would that go through the system up to the court just like as a for me for me to understand that even a little better

yeah so d in terms of the court deserve 51% protection or making sure that organizations stick tutor tutor manifesto debts T domain use case for for the court right now but what if it was something like okay what so another way that I've heard dowse could be gamed is like say a malicious whale instead of like putting the idea oh if you vote for me I you know I will give you tokens what if a malicious whale or just like a whale who's super pissed at some group of people and they're asking for funding and a malicious whale jumps on board buys a bunch of ant votes against a proposal to fund that group that they don't like and the whole is super

obvious to everybody could there be like would that ever hit a court to me that's a bit of an attack I mean in that case without what I would say is that they should if the if the never was say like did want to make that make that happened and it should be voted again and some people that didn't didn't show up to vote they they should go and vote but the the thing that we're really solving with the with the core distich avoid in invalid proposals pretty organizations rules or values like if we're having an organization that is gonna find open source work on an arrogant and someone

submits a proposal to I don't know like built a gambling game on Tron that death things student like even if the whale there's they get wrong well indeed out there really wants it to happen and has 51% of the of the tokens the way that the court protects you is that dad it doesn't even get voted on or like someone can stop the podium and say okay even if you have 51% of the tokens we have these rules in the organization that we're not gonna even like entertain the idea of doing days so that's really what the what the court is protected like not making bad propulsors pass but if I purr like a whale band bias if I didn't chuff tokens and the network

still wants to do that but they didn't show up to vote they should submit it again and do show up to vote and then what I guess you get there is you do get this idea of like lobbyists almost like you I know these terms are super loaded and we don't like them but you do get these you know advocates for certain proposals and they want a sum of their job I guess would be to go around to whales or to large holders and like rally them to this cause yeah and we've kind of heard that this has happened in some content to say GPS that there were in the in the past or when teams were getting funding yeah I think that's that okay and like these whales at the end of

the day are are heavily involved in the in the ecosystem and they should have a say and this I believe that boating will get way more participation when once we release the delegation so that people can delegate to if they want to be a more passive holder in T in to tout they can say okay I want this person to to vote for me or this other day even and then they delegate their boat and if at some point and don't agree with whatever their vote and then they can take they can like overrule the boat or even like take the dedication back so I think Javal that will improve a lot because for some big big holders they're just taking the tokens out of custody and and

culture it's it's just a big hassle for for boating in in some 80px sometimes when there have been important ATP's some some people have done that but it would be easier to just keep the tokens in cold storage and delegate that to either hoarder key that the that they have or or Tauron organization that they know will vote in their best interests well then you have representatives yeah and soon they'll be like a little council maybe a parliament but that's this is so it's interesting that it's kind of getting to that point um do you feel like as time goes on you're gonna see more and more of these kind of cases of merging and there might

be some weird cases I'm sure you guys are looking back over a sort of case studies and thinking of ways to mediate it but who is like which of those teams which of the teams is like working on the ideas because here it's even though I'm I know that there's like a technical switch or something that's created but really first before you can create the technical you need to figure out like like what's the system and who's developing that like how do you how do you come up with these ideas for courts or new rules or yeah yeah so dis has a lot of the ideas that we're finishing to him come in now there were interior region all in the original white paper that that were like in the second white paper that we wrote in early 20 2017 so

yeah it's like just a lot of discussions with detail on how how to make that how to make that happen 70 in the past like Eragon one has been leading the ideation research and development of the of the Argonne Network but now we're seeing that other teams are also starting their own their own projects under t de aragón dr cohn ecosystem and yeah so it's it's kind of in in this moment that almost everything that we set out to build is getting to a point that is a ready almost ready to ready to launch and now there's a lot of cool interesting things that people are

starting to do and come up with their own projects so far what we've heard is like there's voting like I'm just thinking what are the mechanisms in DOS there's voting and this is where like if you happen to have a lot of tokens and you have a you have more of a vote if you've taken it out of cold storage and you're willing to participate are there any other mechanisms that you guys are exploring where maybe it wouldn't be the amount of tokens but rather like an individual gets to vote is this something that you guys are actually thinking about yeah what do you think that yeah we've had this support for this actually for for a long time said people were and weren't really using it that that way but I think there's there's very interesting things

to do with with reputation there's this distinct is working on integrating this this very called source quit it allows you to analyze the repetative reputation graph on our project based on contributions to github or discourse and they're trying to bridge that back into the doubt so that you have like voting power in in in relation to what your reputation is which comes down to how much you're contributing to the to the project so I think that's that's super exciting auntie Dow zero project order leading they're leading that and I'm super excited to see that and there are also there are more sci-fi governance

models like future key that I'm super excited that it's getting to a point that we will start seeing experiments with this Andy very like in the next few months actually for the next i DP will maybe have like a signal in a signal II market a future market for the Eve for the AGP that it will have like its own parallel future key both what is so I don't think we're gonna define this but what is future key yeah so the whole idea of future key is that rather than having people vote for what they what they think should should happen the organization has like a metric that it's trying to optimize for and whenever

do you're faced with a decision it's just looking at okay well if the if we bought it if if we went with just what we think the outcome like this metric would go to so a very simple way it would be like the price of a token so we have this decision to if we go just what is going to read the price of the token in five years or like in five months if we go B what is going to be the price of a token for for this and then you have like a prediction market done on both and people start betting on how would the outcome of each of the options it's but they're actually not betting on what they think it's it's better they're actually putting their

money where their mouth is and saying okay yeah I bet that this will be good for the token after like a 50% increase in price and they actually have a have a bet on that there's sort of betting on the outcome it's not betting on what they want necessarily yeah it's betting on how good both the outcome would will be Ford organization yeah so what do you think the biggest risk facing douses right now yeah I think there's an amount of technical risk and this technology still being not not super old and so far we haven't seen a big smart contract back in a in a while but did see like

pretty pretty nice and technology and people should should be careful careful with it but then there's also interesting implications from the from the legal side moment that you don't have any any legal link to the organization and it's just people like making decisions with the with an organization that it's just running on the under plug chain so yeah the legal implications about how does this get interpreted in different jurisdictions is it's very interesting and also there's like risk of someone creating a dhow for doing something something bad which is definitely possible

like people using good technology to do bad things as it's happened with every every technology and that could give the space a bit of a bad reputation yeah that's actually I didn't think about that part with the legal stuff like that is actually that's that's a question that I've that I've had myself where it's like say you are running your organization on as a dowel and you've collected funds and you want to distribute those funds and say it's like you're you're actually distributing them like pay how do you like it's almost like how do you declare maybe as an individual it's actually not that complicated to declare because you like have an amount of things and there's a

service and it's like whatever you wrote an invoice to somewhere but like how does like that would then if say you declared your taxes and you include this cool you as an individual is great but this organization that paid you like it's sort of a link to this thing and it isn't filing any taxes so like what happens with that yeah this is a very interesting question and this is an idea that we've been kind of working on but never really got to implement in it that is this idea of doubt proxies which are rather than having negative one to one relationship with with that like happy net to have an illegal entity having like organize that companies that can be like service providers for firdaus so

that they could be d entity that invoices for a bunch of a bunch of cows there's like a lot of very bleeding-edge legal legal work that has to be done here like we don't have the expertise in team right now but we're actually it's something that the Aragon Association is looking into into knowing people that that could be interested in working on this like seeing how we can create these these links that are not okay we have a towel and we have a company or corporation that represents it out which I think it's not really it kind of misses a point it's like at that point you're just doing like nicer interfaces for companies but having like these

service providers that you can have this over in Taos and just use them for sending invoices or like owning real estate or something like that they think that's that's super interesting but there's nothing you more work needs to be done in this area are there any jurisdictions that are actually working with dows or on dows why did I hear something about like Vermont yeah I haven't I haven't heard about having heard about that I'm yeah there's like something interesting going on in the state of Wyoming India in the u.s. that they're creating kind of dis sandbox for regulatory sign books for organizations to create there but I think most of the things that we're

seeing are like just maybe recognizing to Dao as a legal entity in in those jurisdictions but yeah I think T we should see it like the the way that we should pursue it is that some jurisdictions to start seeing them as their own thing and don't try to regulate them and or like make them appear as a as a legal entity there because the moment that you have a jurisdiction that recognize you as legal entity then okay there during today into a system again yeah so I found it by the way it's Dior Dior Dior announced in June that it was the first legally

established decentralized autonomous organization in US law and it's a BB LLC a blockchain based limited liability company in Vermont I can put the link in the in the show notes if somebody's curious yeah there was actually rose from the Oregon community our stand open esq dad created like I think the first one is one that he created like earlier in the year like April of may or may not created like a New York LLC linked with that with the Dow and they have like this this way are variously creating an LLC for juror for your Dow so I think like as far as I'm aware of process is the is 300 G Dowling to the real world

but well there it sounds like there's a few more experiments going on at least but I think you're right where it's like if you're just linking it right to another company then you're eventually tapping into the same problems yeah your des company with ionizer yeah it's gonna be interesting what do you think what's exciting to you right now when you look forward like what do you think do you where can you picture a Dow what place do you picture it taking in the future yeah I'm excited too the big Taos again I think T D tau the 22nd 16 D tau was amazing the gap maybe we got a little too excited too soon and

we threw that voltage it's percentages of the earth supply to something that was unproven but I think it was super exciting to see like massive amounts of capital and attention being pulled into into an idea and everyone collaborating to do due diligence for projects and deciding how to howdy doubt which is gonna make a return for everyone which was like a pretty pretty simple mission that Dow has is like we're gonna make investments and make a bunch of money so I'm excited to see big cows like like this one that that people are we get the technology to a point that people are not scared and that is safe actually to do like a big organization that has like

a big big goal and not only a job that just we put money inside any kind of leaks my licks it in the form of grants but that actually has a mission and a goal to exist for a lot of years and that that involves becoming self self sustainable mm-hmm well listen I want to say thank you so much for coming on the podcast and giving me a walk through the Aragon Dow the setup and Dowson general yeah things I went to a super friend and I think there's definitely a lot to take from this I feel like we see it we do see more and more dows popping up around and I had never really realized the sort of far-reaching implications that that having a dowel could have so this has

been really helpful thanks a lot things and to our listeners thanks for listening you [Music]