ZKPodcast: Bridges, xDai and Burner Wallets with Igor & Austin

Transcript

welcome to zero knowledge a podcast where we explore the latest in blockchain technology and the decentralized web the show is hosted by me Anna and me Fredrik in this episode we sit down with Austin and Igor to talk about bridges XT and Austin's latest project that ties all these things together called the Berner wallet so Before we jump into this week's episode I want to again let you

know about the zero knowledge summit that's coming up on March 22nd in Berlin it'll be a day full of workshops talks and breakout sessions all about snarks starks and zero knowledge topics if you are a dev or researcher working on these topics or looking to dive in please submit an application to attend the link is in the description and just FYI it is a small technical event with limited spots so be sure to get your application in as soon as possible cool so now here's our episode on bridges X dye and the burner wallet today we have Igor from POA and Austin from geek Lang labs as well as our usual co-host Donna welcome everyone so why don't you guys

kick off with introducing yourself your work sort of what your background is and how you got into this space a little bit Austin you can go first yeah so I got started just as a lowly Def developer I built a couple little games and as I played with the games I realized that UX was really clunky I had to hit yes and meta mask every time I wanted to drop my you know my fishing bait into my fishing game and so then I started playing around with how we make UX better and how we kind of abstract away gasps and that led me to meta transactions and then eventually to doing R&D for get coin and then building out the Berner wallet which is kind of

this this web wallet that lives in your browser and it's kind of helping with onboarding and it makes the onboarding process a lot smoother and there are some trade-offs there with security because your private keys live in local storage but we can kind of get into that later but that's that's basically my story and what about you Igor what's your story I have a long story I started Bitcoin time I worked as a consultant for several Russian companies and I transitioned to a consulting company based in Singapore and helped them to build consortium types of networks and after that the the company I worked for they closed their packaging Department and we decided to to start working on

something that we were familiar with and to solve some problems which were interesting and two years ago we thought about how can we make a film network with some form of permission consensus but with a token which can be tradable on exchanges basically how to make public permission network and our main idea was can we make something like Dow and put this down in as a consensus part and that's how we pointed this idea of the first period network which is what we call pure core where Dow with her independent and non-affiliated validators you can decide who were validators in this network and as far as

I know it's the first implementation of this type of what we call meta consensus where we have layered consensus of underlying 50 consensus and on top of it we have this Dow which manage this validator set this network was launched in December 2017 and in production since then and gave us tools and the ideas for further experiments I think it's great to hear where you guys are both coming from I know that one of the big topics we wanted to start with today was the concept of bridges I think maybe as a start you can explain how because you've explained sort of the PIO a network idea but why why did you need to build

bridges yeah the idea of pure network is to to have side chains side chains means new chains with their own state they operate in public Internet and they're not connected to I'd say my nephew network and when you need for some reason to move SS from network to network you have to use some centralized so as we know as exchanges so exchange is a is a form of bridge where state of what network is moved into a centralized state of the of the exchange and after moved after some transformation move to decentralized state on another network

so why do we need to have bridge for Peoria network very simple if you have if you ever start a side chain or a new block chain and you're successful launch it one of the main question is how to get listed this side chain on exchanges and this is what usually people don't talk about because it's a recommendation from lawyers to not discuss Exchange listing and so forth but in reality you have to do this otherwise community which we call them contributors but you know many people people call them investors will put pressure on project and this project is is usually starts with a query with a word well and after

like when when talking say when men and after when exchanges so when exchanges is crucial question after you have your main that launched and we had an idea or here is it's kind of hard to make a native token wasted on major exchanges let let's have a place that at least on one big exchange but also let's make our token tradable on dese's decentralized exchanges and to make it trailer bound x's you have to have this 13 on a theorem so some projects starts as you see 2013 and after they migrate from a human to their own site she'd like he was right or wrong but some projects

like peewee it's a not very popular way but they start maintenance and after they bring their native token into easy 20 representation on a salon magnet that that's why we built our first bridge and this bridges is exciting for for many reasons so first of all the liquidity of this side chain is on two networks at the moment right so 95 percent is on site itself and 5% on main net this token is tradable on exchanges on both sites and this breaches in operations since made 2018 and in production since then without outages

with our security incidents so before you continue because one thing I think we haven't really done yet is define exactly what a bridge is and Fredrik I don't know if you want to kind of start that off like do you want to start off that definition because I know that parody also has done some bridge work sure sure first I wanted to add a comment as well to what you are saying about the exchanges because when an exchange goes to list something if it's a native token and they want to list that they need to run a full node of that token they need to integrate that into their whole framework and this is a ton of work for an exchange but NERC 20 token they already have all of the infrastructure to basically just flip a

switch to list it so that's why it's a lot easier for an exchange to listen your C 20 token than a native token I like they don't have to set up all this infrastructure to run extra stuff but yeah so bridges it's a fascinating topic it's something that's been going around for a long time there's obviously now projects devoted entirely to like build-outs bridge infrastructure like cosmos and poke it out to some extent and and what VOA is doing and yeah like we parody started this as we had the be way proof of authority networks running in companies and various things and these companies wanted to either interact with data and maintenance in

some way or like we didn't really necessarily come to it from the token perspective that was the first thing we built I was sort of the easy thing but like a lot of them they want to run a completely private network with you know their own stakeholders and no authorities so what's what POA now org has been doing like this dowel on top I mean essentially kind of drives P way towards POS where there there's like another layer of governance and organization around who these authorities are and it's not just like you know these three big banks are the authorities so yeah I think it makes total sense and that model to then want to like bring a lot of this stuff

back to maintenance but yeah bridge as a concept you know a theorem to a theorem bridge is one thing bridge to like Bitcoin is something completely different so it's hard to talk about it as a generic concept but a bridge in theorem to theorem is one smart contract on either end and a set of bridge validators and these can be the authorities of the PIO a network or they can be chosen in some crypto economic game there's various strategies in that example like would so say it's like ER C 20 a theory emmm a net bridge to something else there could be validators or in a POS system on one on the side chain but what is the who are the validators exactly on the etherium main

net because right now it's still proof of work so they're about data's between networks and this validators between network can be validated some of the side chain or can they can be independent party for example on on XD chain which we are going to talk about today about daters of the consensus are the same bio-datas advisers of the bridge and also what we added to the bridge is governance and also they're part of governance so on the bridge there is a three or four signatures required to relay an event between two networks and the same on multi seek which manage the bridge like three or four signatures are required to change lists of auditors and three or four

signatures are required to modify elements of the bridge and also three or four signatures are required to shut down the bridge right or upgrade the bridge so at the same model the the thing that I like about bridges that setups can be very different for different use cases let me talk a little bit about history of the bridge and decisions were had so we started first to explore a concept of bridge basically the two families of bridges in one family you relate part of the state of one network another network it's what BTC early or peacefully or Plasma like release are doing and another family it's a Oracle's based bridge where Oracle's set of

Oracle's absorb event on both networks and after a number of event per one transactions are what we call aggregated they relay a message in the form of transaction from from that birth to network within smart contracts they can make lock/unlock of tokens or mint and burn and this different modes of bridge separation can give different scenarios for example pure weight winning bridge will remove native tokens from pure network to FC Twente representation which we call p weight when you native tokens are locked unlocked right and but it is relating these events create new tokens on a few minutes so they mint and

when tokens relate back they've burned into tokens so it's a lock and lock and mint and burn if we set up yes a 22 years to 20 bridge it can be lock unlock and lock unlock right it can be like analog minton minton burn and mint endure so you've just described two modes of bridges you say that you'd have tokens on one chain and you want to bring them to another and you can use this thing called a bridge where you either lock them on one chain and you have them usable on this other chain and then when you want to bring them back you lock them on this other chain and they become usable on the main chain again the other one is this mint and burn and and you mentioned frederic that it's often two sets of smart contracts on either one of

these chains yes that is that the full definition of what a bridges there are some additional pieces of this thing for example if you have two smart contracts and you have validators between them you want to know do you have like in our balances on this validators do you have the same balance of minted tokens lock tokens so that's why we created monitoring tool so that simply third compound component right so one is a set of smartphone choice second is set of Auditors bridge monitoring tool also we provide deployment tools in the form of unstable play books so it's good to have the

unified distribution for validators that's yeah that's form formation points and also the UI right which is important hmm so I think conceptually you're right and I mean it's it's these sort of to smart contracts and and authorities that Oracle's or whatever you want to call them observe events on one network and make them happen on the other whether it's locking or minting or whatever but of course yeah as an actual product as a whole it needs a lot more built out than just smart contracts we used to talk about and I don't know how this is exactly related or if this is actually the same thing but is this an atomic swap like what's

an atomic swap and what's the bridge are these different things yeah I would say so an atomic swap typically means that one thing is moving in one direction and another thing is moving in the other direction and you're guaranteed that both will happen or none will happen whereas here you're really just moving something in one direction but you have a clean eye like a bond yeah you can be guaranteed that you can move it back later but not both are happening at the same time yes right so they're kind of are they in the same family are they completely unrelated I would say that an atomic swap is a type of bridge because like if you want a bridge Bitcoin to

litecoin you use an atomic swap where you move Bitcoin on one side and you move the light coin on the other side and you're guaranteed that either both will happen or none will happen and you do this through hash time law contract law but yeah I would say it's a type of bridge what do you think Igor I agree it's better the thing that atomic swap is a part of reach and not otherwise I don't exactly get how do you move how do you move like coin on to that chain though how do you move it in that even like in that example without the freezing without the mention burn you don't move anything on the so you just move Bitcoin to another Bitcoin address and you move like going

to another address you'll never actually like moving anything in between I mean you're not doing that and the other bridge either but conceptually maybe you are but you know like you know in an atomic swap it's even less so conceptually okay cool that actually cleared up something you kind of mentioned this before so the decentralized exchange kind of takes the role of moving tokens from one chain to another in a way but these bridges like do they compete with exchanges do they replace the decentralized exchange do they work in tandem to decentralized exchanges use bridges and when you question centralized exchanges on a few it's a it's a way for a token of a side

chain to get leaked we see on another network right also this bridge token can be listed on centralized exchange and interestingly this bridge token can be listed in one pair with native token so for PE there is a pair on one exchange called hit BTC where P we can be traded for wrapped form of PE into Peoria 20 that that's interesting and then theoretically so do they need do they need this type of bridges to operate no but can they get advantages that for sure yes especially if the access will move out of if you met - let's say side chains or shards in future then they can breach

existing tokens to this side chains and and get advantages of fast speed and the scalable platform which is Peoria right now so that for sure can be an advantage for for decentralized exchanges and for centralized - I personally think that decentralized exchange I'm more open to this type of innovation yeah you know I'd say the holy grail for decentralized exchange is to be able to trade between major networks and so right now on a decentralized exchange you you can trade wrapped Bitcoin and then be guaranteed to kind of get your Bitcoin out on the other side and that is actually then bridged but this was pretty new like a year ago when

everyone was working on bridges like that decentralized exchanges were just trading RC 20 tokens and like only the native aetherium one liked it they didn't really bring on bringing other assets whereas the ideal goal for a decentralized exchange is to trade sea cash Bitcoin everything on the same place and for that you need bridges because these networks will never like abandon their own consensus model and like opt-in to someone else's so you need to bridge these networks to be able to trade them properly decentralized Austin do you have any thoughts on any of this so I just think but my way of explaining a bridge is is it's just an

account that you're sending it to so so we built Igor's bridge right into the burner wallet so it's a nice little native thing so someone can just hit like an exchange or a I think the button is exchange actually but they basically just hit the exchange button and they can go I want to go die 2x die and they just kind of hit it hit go and it does it for them right so we're able to use his bridge without having to use his UI which his UI is great right but I want it to be native within mine and and all that's happening is basically I'm sending die from my wallet to his validator right or the other way around so for me it's just like sending a transaction and a couple minutes later it lands on the other side so that's

that's how I think of him a little little Oracle magic in the middle yeah so when you say exchange there I mean you are exchanging die 4x die so in that sense it is an exchange but you're it's a one-to-one exchange you're not like speculatively trading in in that sense of an exchange so yeah it depends on how you define an exchange it gets a little bit more right exactly and there's not a lot of speculation when it's pegged to the dollar - yeah when we launched our first bridge in production it was one of the first bridges on the market right and that there was a very interesting to understand is it legal right we need to make you I see and I'm along both sides can we make it this way that

it will not constitute money transmission and will not be regulated and those questions are still open but we we modified some things about this bridge that we think that it doesn't constitute money transmission and we have legal opinion about it and to make it not my transmission you have to you know think about our both networks centralized right let's say there are not and is this party which relay events centralized or not right so for for all our bridges we'll have two or three or three or four signatures required to to relay an event and these parties are independent from each other the unaffiliated with let's say business activities and also we don't call this

exchange because they exchanged as you mentioned I can apply these things we call them self transfers and that's interesting when you sent funds over the bridge you can receive it another set only to your own wallet so you can send it to the next destination only by having private key so it's like moving assets from from pocket to pocket because if Alice can send funds to Bob more likely the bridge will be mine in transmitting service and we'll need to have kyc and AML on both sites like regular exchanges are doing great they have to have account confirmations verifications eliminate suspicion activity reporting complaint with Bank Secrecy Act local regulation and so

forth so it's very important aspect for interoperability and I think that that every project should think about it is like are you money transmitter or not when you transmit tokens between networks I guess it helps to also define the difference between a decentralized exchange and a bridge which is that as you just described in a bridge you are actually locking a token in your wallet on one side and moving it to your wallet on another decentralized exchange in itself is only a smart contract on whatever network we're talking about like aetherium it doesn't ever leave etherium so you can't trade like anything that is on another network in a decentralized exchange without a bridge

okay but that's not what I what I just mentioned was more like who wait like who owns the accounts that hold the things and what I understand is like in the bridging you own the accounts on both sides and so you're not really exchanging anything you're just moving your own funds around whereas in a decentralized exchange are you are you also moving it between two accounts that you own or not well you would move it to like you'd move your ether or your toe connects into the exchange into the contract you leave it in the hands of the contract yeah and then you know someone else puts their stuff in and then you know you get theirs and they get yours so I guess that's a money transfer

but it's managed by the chain and by the contract so there's no entity to do the money transfer yeah that's right yeah the problem here is when you promote this type of solution usually it comes from Twitter account or you know website and they have awesome owners but yeah it's different what what Austin mentioned that he's and funds - well data actually he's in France - the pool and when he sent this amount to this pool which is like a smart contract generates an event and validator so listening to this event so there are not custodians of these funds so they can make some operations with these funds

within boundaries right we added limits and quarters for validators which is important for blacks one type of event and I think this is advantage of pure implementation of interactive ability and that is management functionality when one multi seek which control the bridge can control the smart conscious can define quarters and can define limits what what might happen validators a very the oracles on different computers they don't have access to each other computer right but by social engineering or phishing they can be hacked right and in this situation when we deploy a bridge we can specify what

is the maximum damage which can handle per 24 hours it's a daily quota daily limit per day also this limit can be set to zero so body this will not be able to relay any events and then this this type of multi-sig can be operated by dhow can be operated by some token holders in a crypt economic mechanism and these can be embedded within like multi stick which control the separations and there is no need to to modify its my contracts of the brace itself alright so we've talked and mentioned X tie a little bit and weight the burner wallet and and it's a couple of these things let's dig into what

those things are and I think useful just like let's start out with X ty what is it is it a network of its own and how are those you know I assume it's bridged in some way because you were talking about it so let's let's dig into other hours now X dizer is a sidechain to theorem it's a new chain based on a feeding 1.0 protocol with native currency in die there is a stable token back to US dollar and the market cap of X I seen consist only from bridge die bridge between helium 2 X dye locks and unlocks die on on the theorem side and that mint and burn X die one-to-one on X

- side the biggest advantage of this type of network is that we have a stable native token first time in history a good think of having stable token is that balances are stable platform the execution stable also if you think about the few it in the video I'm talking for for platform execution you have two dimensional volatility so guess price is volatile and token price water right in our first answer in Puri we said guess price fixed so we removed one volatility party no token price determined by by by open market so we cannot predict it that that's why this type of non-volatile

platform users we can have only in the network with stable next auction what you just described let's go I want to understand that the workings exactly sure you have die which is an e rc 20 that's right that lives on the main net and you've now connected it to a side chain or like a new network with this thing called X dye and X dye is not an e rc 20 that's right it's a negative token within within Verity implementation of a theorem there is a special system smart contract of block reward and then black you already can define a reward for each block we changed implementation of this block reward and now that the smart

contract is connected to to the to the bridge so when an event is relate and event is a clocking of dye on main net side then this black reward means new X dye to a person who deposited dye on it main that side I see and this is what you just described right so on one side you have on the main net you have the locking that's right but on the side chain you have this minting and burning so every time you lock on the main net you mint on the side chain native native tokus and then you burn meaning you you send it to to 0 address which is like 0 X 0 0 0 and and unlock die on main that

side so who manages this side chain like because like so there's block rewards but there's no miners there yes there are no there are no - we use the same what we call proof of autonomy consensus where at the moment there are 4 validators and each of them has equal right in governance process and governance for us is very practical governance defined by data set like who are about daters so each file data can propose a change to add validator to the network or remove all data from the network so in this model there are 4 validators at the moment it's a giveth BOE major dowser and proto file which is a software development company so for

independent auditors the network itself started with one Val data and it had what we called thrusted ceremony when first of all data started the network and generated first initial keys and distributed this case to first initial validators and after burn all unused keys so I mean in our setup we had that twelve initial keys this myself ceremony is distributed to three validators and doctor destroyed himself basically can you create new keith still if you wanted to no no this these events are observable now governance depth so anyone can but you don't need to trust me you can check governance contracts and you can see events which happened on the network so

i was in myself ceremonies and i don't have an option to generate new keys and all keys which are generated in advance are destroyed so there are four validators at the moment each of them can add or remove new val data and three signatures required to onboard nevada tour Quijote validated from the network the same set of validator star voltages of the bridge and for the users of multi chip which manage funds of the of the bridge okay and so now we have a side chain with a native token that's stable that's right it's very exciting there's obviously a lot of I don't know if you want to call it problems but obviously

it's a lot better than being completely centralized with one entity as in you know a normal like coinbase centralized exchange and said you have four parties that are independent but obviously it's not as decentralized as the theorem itself so like and that's the thing that smart people say is decentralization is a scale it's not a switch that's on or off but yeah just crypto economically obviously these validators have no incentive to add other validators they would be doing so completely altruistically I assume and if there's I didn't actually know they had fixed gas price because that also means like that they're like you have no way to deal with congestion for instance yeah

it's an interesting idea and we're in the production for quite a long time right and we know that the model is killable horizontally for example you can create a new site seen like X died and some projects like coal already created sh in like X died but with their own seal and token as a native token and they set up a bridge between a theorem and the fuse network it's not a stable sighting but it's seishi an application-specific sidechain we know that the model is scalable with same security assumptions we know that contracts are order that consensus is audited if you know 1.0 is a battle-tested and peer reviewed so we know that we have the security

assumptions and it can scale the network or zone for them also the network is quite easy is cured vertically you could have professional validators they're incentivized to get as much transactions as possible on the network right big fella transactions and if we think about incentive mechanisms for validators to do validated blocks there is no block reward for them right they can collect the transaction fees which are small and basically introduced to protect from denial of service attacks their motivation of all that is in future would be a small percentage of fee when you want to convert X data back today so from the i2x day is free but if you want to go back to let's say convert

that to a US dollar or other tokens then for the exit you have to pay small team and we don't set it up but it will be very small and comparing to you know other services so that's their economic model and as we know everything is temporal right and right now side chains are temporal solutions for if you don't scalability it started as a temporary solution for a theorem security but now we see that side chains plus bridges plus apps as Austin built are enablers I call them enables because they enable new use cases which we didn't have

before and relatively inexpensive so if you combine all expenses per head on X day and it's it's much less than average ice your age it's my smile and timeframe wise it started on if if Berlin and there's like less than half a year and so many people around excited about in Berlin I wrote X dice tables I chain the idea itself deaf specific sidechain so that's amazing that we can make is enabling technologies by combining existing tools that we have already and that's why I personally in if your market system and that's why I'm staying here I'm not moving to two other ecosystems

you're not going to tron anytime soon yeah I think it's a cool use case especially this X tie thing it's obviously trading off scalability for security but for a lot of DAPs that's totally fine and that's that sort of yeah the trade-off that you have to make in that the triangle of security scalability and decentralization as you can see on our forum makers our engineers asked if we can make fifteen hundred transactions per second on X day Jane : and there are multiple parties interested in experimenting with this type of bigger X day chain type of

network I think this has definitely given us a good look at what X dye is now let's move on to this burner wallet Austin what's the burner wallet so the burner wallet is basically a public/private key pair that lives in your browser so kind of like the trade offs like Fredrik said how there is kind of a gradient of decentralization we're willing to make these trade-offs to go into X died to move stuff around quickly same thing with the burner wallet it kind of takes that another step where first of all if you want to get into crypto you've gotta like download a wallet and you're the first thing you're going to get hit with is they're gonna ask you for a 12 or it seed phrase and they're gonna make you type it back in and and that's a really good idea if

you're gonna have a lot of money right but let's let's make some trade-offs to get the UX smoother and the the burnin wallet basically just creates you an account as you hit it and it's just a web page in your phone then you can use that key pair to transact on X die or even back on the main - it's just a little slower so so with the ex die I know we've talked about it but let's just do a tldr of ex die basically you've got five second block times right so your transactions are gonna go super fast the the native token is died so low cognitive overhead you don't have to think about what is point zero zero one like point zero zero one is a tenth of a penny right oh it's a good die though it's not die it's related it's the native token is excess

yep right but you could quickly bridge in and out right at any time you can move in and out right so if I if I have 10x die I can have ten die in two minutes right so so we've got quick block x we've got low cognitive overhead and then we it's just super cheap right so the the gas price to like deploy a contract is like point zero zero zero zero zero four or something like that right so so it's super cheap to deploy the contracts so then on top of all of those benefits that you have we've got a burner wallet which is just a web wallet that comes up in your browser and immediately lets you start moving money around in five seconds so that's basically the concept of the partner I know that like I think it was that Eric on that igor demoed the burner wallet to

me and it was one of the funnest demos i've ever seen in the space because it worked really fast and I didn't have to download anything right I think we're ready for these trade-offs right like the UX is finally like we're finally ready for this kind of UX I made like a junky little HTML version basically on the plane to Prague for Def Con and when I got there I showed a few people I was like hey look I can send I can send you this new this hard spoon next I came out and I can send you some of the currency and and I sent it to a few people and they're all like whoa that's super cool and it's like oh my god it works like all of the apps that we've known for all of these years exactly and there's not

huge latency and weird things we have to write down on pieces of paper and hide them away but it needs to be you need to be afraid of this though right basically that that seed phrase or that private key that protects this money is stored in local storage on your phone and so we had to come up with a name that was very scary and someone on Twitter was like call it a burner and it you know you kind of think about the old Baltimore cop show but it's it's a really good example of like what like the name really defines what's going on there right don't put a bunch of money into a burger that that's a good point I mean I think that's like my ether-wall it kind of started a same place where it's just like we're gonna have everything in a browser it's gonna be

super fast and you like you can just send tokens wrong then all of a sudden someone is sending like five million dollars on might their wallet with all of their stuff in their browser and are you are you still scared that like people will start using this with significant amounts and suddenly you know X days is worth 40 billion dollars and it's very you know plausible that someone will try to attack it yeah yeah it's I mean it's scary we got a we got to provide the education around that right so first of all I think I own I think I own like maybe 1/4 of the entire market cap of X dye and we've been joking around since it will be used at Denver for buying hotdogs and stuff that I'm a self-proclaimed hot dog whale but but what what we what we need to do

basically is people are buying into X dye we need to be careful to do good on the education side right so so as someone uses the wallet basically what will get you in will let you use it we're not gonna hit you with a seed phrase but we can tell when you have more than thirty or forty dollars behind that and at that point we need to provide that education we need to slide down the same the thing that says hey let's let's learn about seed phrases now you've got enough money in here and then when it gets to 300 or 400 dollars and it's even even scarier right so the education is going to be very important on our part to kind of ease people into that right we're kind of at the top of the funnel when we talk about just like we've got a web page that you're going

to to move funds and then it's it's going to be up to us to provide the education to move people through that funnel to get them onto a better wallet with better security and and and probably even a better network but I wouldn't say that in front of a door exercice break yeah I mean that that's what I think individual user education is super important obviously but even if you do that well and let's say no one has more than 10 bucks in it if there's you know a million people with ten bucks in it that's the network is worth 10 million owners may might not be a problem if there's a hundred million people who have ten bucks in it you know suddenly bribing those four validators might not actually be that hard like at what

points will giveth you know will they collude with the others for a billion dollars maybe so yeah Igor do you want to answer that yeah so we we will see more change like X day and each gene will have some different set of falater's different you know entities different countries and they will be aggregated in some things like you know in Fura because let's ask awesome or so let's say if we have two networks like X day it is possible to connect both of them and burden rewards and query bounces of to our pcs oh absolutely yeah so the burner is

basically made for like plug-and-play are PCs right so so yeah we can bring in 720 ones from the main now we can bring in and I'm trying to build it like that so so there's like a config file that gets plugged into it where you can pick the RPC to pick the tokens you can pick the balances and just kind of have them all lay there yeah I mean if you have two networks like X die can we connect on one burner world and I'd say you query balances on two networks and like one network is like default network or you have more funds now it's it's it's it's all much easier to make her on like water side right then on the network side how to integrate charts and how to how to move on sir are you saying that like as soon as X died sidechain one has

like maybe ten thousands X tie tokens in it you switch to a new one which has different validators because is that something you could do I mean that's a very high number a very small volume sidechain yeah that's that's what we discussed when we thought about enabling great recently we thought about a way where a clock dye can be used as a loan on a platform like compound or you know make your platform itself and get some revenue from borrowing this large die but let's say we don't want to to test on production is that first yeah let's launch one more I stay chained right and

and make incentive for merchants to sell something call next day because when you sell something for ice day you can you can set lower price because this locked die will be blunt to someone and revenue from from this from this loan will go back to the network and will incentivize merchants to decrease price right so you can basically you can say here's one product for one and a US dollar or for 0.97 X day and this type of experiment most likely will be on a on a new side chain I have a I know that some people

want to have X day but for different stable tokens because you know everyone is talking about X day but no one is talking about I don't know X debtor right I'm not I'm not saying that teller is interested in it but you know other stable tokens might be interesting in in this type of smart contract platform powered by it by their native token and by burner so that that's that's also a field of having multiple payment systems connected by by one you I liked burner would and this awesome mentioned it's quite easy to integrate multiple payment networks so I think this risk will naturally spread and decentralized across multiple chains but that's also a

teacher of of side chains because you can have multiple chains with same security assumptions I was curious on the burner wallets what's the backend for it so you mean like for instance in creating multiple are pcs you know is it in fira backed or are you running your own servers with nodes or what are you using it yeah it depends on the RPC endpoint so for Maina we do talk to in fira we we can connect to our own nodes or we can connect to died i pol network it's it's all about you know who who has the best uptime for us right so the burner is just a static website you can download it from the github repo and run it so every the back end is basically all these

different are pcs and and chains so to talk a little bit more like this is this is a giant experiment right like X dye is just a hard spoon of a theorem it's an exact copy of a theorem so to speak to that a little bit more you can do constantinople type stuff on X dye now right so you can do create to the Igor and team deployed Constantinople out ahead of everybody else and we could play around with it on X dye where where it's a little less risky right so you can do a create two counterfactual deployment on X die right now and that's cool but what else right like so when we start talking about eath 2.0 there's there's gonna it's gonna be really awesome to have these little playgrounds to to dive into a side chain where the mole market cap is $5,000 and we can

play around with a lot of these different techniques right and along with that though the the front end is a giant experiment right we can play around with let's let's make sure that people will understand that you X and let's get it translated to different languages and let's also maybe create a side chain that's pegged to a currency in a solid South American country maybe not a hyper-inflated South American country but that this is all just an experiment to see how we get people to use it and how well it works and and how we kind of drive adoption and usage and all of that yeah it this kind of goes back a little bit to an episode we've talked about where we talk about test nets and we talked quite a lot about like belly bearing test nets and that being a thing that that's kind of nice

and something that you you you want because you can't really test something on a test net unless there's value like no there's no incentive to break anything you know if you're building a dowel on a test and you want to try that out you kind of want some value in that Dow to ensure that it works as the like thing you can't test crypto economic incentives or anything like that without value so it's almost a little bit like a valley bearing testing it and yeah I think it allows for a lot of experimentation like you guys said which is good I think this idea to like so the Berner wallet as I mentioned like when I saw it I was just like wow this is so easy this is so great you've sort of like fixed a few a few problems in that small build

I know it's I mean not you alone but a few problems have been fixed by this which is a stable coin which you can like actually by kind of real-world things from potentially like real world vendors who will accept it because it's going to be consistent and like you mentioned you've gotten rid of that problem of needing when you're using a stable coin like die needing eath to send it around and I have to say like I had that I had that experience firsthand when I was at the blockchain week in San Francisco and I went to a Maker Dow drinks thing and they were giving away died and I was like cool died but I didn't have anything set up so I just

set up the phone you know set up the wallet put the dye on the thing and then I realized I got theirs like ok cool I got it and I went to pay for something with this dye and then they were like oh no no you also need eath so then i had to go to somebody else and then they had to send some eath so that i could do this thing and I felt that clunkiness and so obviously when I saw the X died in a browser I completely felt like wow that that is smooth and you've also added in at least the version I saw the ability not only to work an X die but also move it in to die and even generate gas or something like you've you've been really thinking how to it's like awesome playground small amounts and then bring

it back to the main net using bridges so yeah exactly well it kind of a lot of this started I think it was I would I think I was in San Francisco I don't remember where I was exactly but I was at a dinner with plenty of aetherium wise people right now people probably have plenty of a theory I'm all sitting around at the table and it was time to split the check and and someone was like what VIN mo you he's like no no we are aetherium people what do you mean you're venmo me and so that's where a lot of this started and then talking with alejandre who is working in a lot of in his whaling countries like it all kind of came together like oh we need to make this like really really really easy to

use it's all about the the user experience right so once it once we had it in the browser and it was where working we just started holding all these events there cypherpunks speakeasies but basically you you have just a phone or an iPad or any kind of device and you create this pop-up point-of-sale system where we just walked into this bar in Boulder and we took their iPad that they had sitting there and we pointed it at xi2 IO and we hit the receive button and they had a POS system and then at the door we would hand out these paper wallets that were loaded up with some tokens that they just basically you shoot the tokens with your phone and now you have $10 and you walk over to the bar and you scan

the beer that you want and it shows up on their screen it shows up on your screen and you get a beer in hand so we just round it off all the sharp edges along the way and we did this over and over again where someone would say oh I wish I had you know a max button here I wish this you know I wish this form would save the information for me I typed in the number and then I hit scan and when I came back the number wasn't there right that's that's been like my last month has been just watching people use this thing and writing down every like scribbling all sorts of notes and just watching people use it to try to make it as smooth as possible that's a great great story in user studies and like actual UX development Frederick I

love that link that you just made though to the value bearing test net because the speed at which something like this can be used adopted like it's amazing but like you said like if it gets too big then there's a security issue but if you can keep it actually small then you can just have a ton of activity where there's no reason to like break it in a sort of a bit of a safe place where all of this user testing could potentially be done and then when other solutions come in that can actually protect larger volume side-chain stable things then maybe the UX will be there because I know that's been a huge complaint we've done a few episodes on like the issues of users not you know user experience and being able to bridge

in and out of these sandboxes in a minute is super powerful maybe do you think these side chains could replace the test net I think they can be like a staging environment in in most software development scenarios you we will have a staging network test Network and production network right in the encrypted space we didn't have at this staging environment and I don't think this site cheese will be replacements but they can be used to test crypt economic behavior and incentive which is hard to test on test nets also it left at about new features of burner wallet with you you actually

asked Austin about this feature and I'd like I'd like to explain it if possible right when you get your ex die right usually you want to convert it to die right because that is tradable on exchanges and dice is more stable than ex die so to speak and when you convert X die in to die within bird nerd wallet like a week ago you're locked in your burner world because you don't have easier to send die back right to two new addresses and and now there is a feature where you can sell part of your ex die and get some a few so theoretically I don't know Orson can can we send the aphelion from from burner world right

now sure yeah let's see what he's explaining is basically the exchange and it goes from eath to die 2x die and then if you run a native token on X I this is a good way to explain we keep saying that X died as a token but what do you consider a theory I'm a token or is it like a negative native currency that's okay yeah okay ether is a token okay so II so so basically I think of dye as a token that runs on eath and so what we've done is we've deployed a token for each Denver called Buffett die and that runs on X die so if you think about the conversion process you've got eath and then that goes into die and then die goes into X die and then X die goes into Buffett die right and you have all those different

bridges and rule sets that can be tweaked depending on how you want to run those and actually to the user they're gonna go the other direction right they're gonna start with the what do you call it buffered by Buffett I like so Buffett corn is the is the mascot of eat Denver so Buffett Dow I keep hearing Buffy - Buffy yeah Buffy guys yeah I don't I don't know how to how to pronounce it Vampire Slayer but that's I think I'm hearing it wrong but uh okay so but they're gonna hear it they're gonna get it from the other direction so I still can't pronounce this buffer dive but I do yes Buffy die 2x die X die - die die and then die die no wait actually no it's

but you're going you're c22 native native - er see 20 years see 22 native that's exactly right yeah and and I and it all happens natively right in the burner wallet right so you can go from buffa die to ether by just hitting buttons right in the the UI within the the burner so why you ask so let's say what we want is to stimulate an economy at Denver right we want this pop up economy where we can have these food trucks that can be accepting buffa die a token that we just made up and that Buffett die needs to have value but we don't want participants to just take their thirty bucks or whatever they get and just off-ramp it and walk away so what we do is we have a special contract

that says the token that we've minted to all these users can only be off tramped by the vendors anyone can can on ramp some into it and they can offer amp the amount that they on rant or whatever they can get out what they put in right they can withdraw what they deposited but the the main of the main balance that we minted them can only be taken out by the vendors right and we can just do that with a simple few simple lines in a smart contract so what we what we've done is we've mented this token that only really has value to the vendors they let people buy those things with the tokens we don't have to have a bunch of money wrapped up in it because we only have to offer amp what the vendors off ramp and and that's what we

pay them for so it allows us a lot of flexibility with the tokens and we did the same thing with the speakeasy you walk in the speakeasy you get ten dollars and it shows up is ten dollars right it says dollars right there in your phone but really it's just a token I made and at the end of the night after everybody is paid then I can just go to the bar and look at the balance on the iPad and and I offer and them to Fiat from there is really cool it sounds like there's a lot going on around X dye and around the burner wallet how about you guys just give us a little bit of an update about what's coming up okay so basically eat Denver is going to be the trial by fire for the Bernal wallet no matter how many little thirty person

events I have with 3,000 people all show up and start using this thing I keep saying on Twitter that it's going to go up in fire because I keep using the fire icon for the burner wallet hoping that that like going up in flames is a good thing but it could be a total disaster hopefully not though we'll see so after eath denver basically there's a lot of really cool things on the roadmap for the burner because what we have is sort of this this easy to get to web three provider and so from there we we've been thinking about ways that we could use this for other onboarding right not just a wallet but for dabs if a dab can have a wallet that's integrated into their page so we get coin we always have this kind of gas list get coin unicorn project that's out

on the out on the horizon well if we deploy wallet get coin CO and it's a burner wallet and then we I frame that in and inject it then basically you could have gasless experience where you go to get coin it detects that you don't have web 3 a little burner wallet slides down you drop five cents into it or something like that and you're good to run for a while and you can instead of just having like every single pop up to sign things since it's only a nickel you can kind of just put it on autopilot and let it go so going back to like those games that I built about a year ago where you are constantly hitting that dialogue if I build a wallet into that or or the other way not just iframe but if it's like a sign in with burner and

we use post messages to kind of talk between the burner and the app basically you you kind of create this meta mass that lives in the browser and then you can kind of just send it to dollars and you could go play my game galley ass and just put it on autopilot and now you're just clicking buttons and building ships and your your sailing ships and your going fishing and all of that stuff that was kind of impossible last year because it was kind of clunky now becomes possible with with this injected web 3 that comes from the burner wallet and collectibles in collectibles yeah we're gonna do collectibles at eat Denver and we'll see how that goes but yeah that since since X die is kind of a sandbox for aetherium and and the

burner is kind of a sandbox for a wallet it lets us iterate really quickly like we we were able to deploy collectables like I started working on it two days ago and it's live in production now and to be able to do that on a wall that would be really hard if I had to like ship that to an app store and stuff cool what about you Igor for the for the bridges we're working on the incentive model how to take fees when the fans are moving from from network to network and this is important to keep all these incentivized the next big feature is arbitrary message bridging where any arbitrary message can be based between networks and that's important for for games and applications

with metadata your multiple requests for this type of functionality and we are working on it right now and for Forex day the the most important is to have this seamless experience as long as as possible we make our infrastructure like more outer scalable parts that we are we're providing for example RPC endpoints are out of scalable and we plan to battle test them in each Denver and what's interesting work trying to do with bridge Forex day is we plan to implement some form of ZK year C 2013 standard so you can deposit a note like sticky note on a theorem site and you

will get anonymous X died on X decide so this will provide some plausible deniability to this vulnerable transactions and especially if you burn your private key after usage so a user can deposit the Z key vic-20 on the ATM side and get this my most x die use it burn it and from from burner wallet side there's literally no changes required right because it's the same X die but with like different source of origin that's that's that's our plan for for bringing privacy transactions oh that's cool because you

can have privacy private transactions without actually implementing any zero knowledge on exercise because it will be on on the theorem side yeah it's really exciting I was talking to Aztec guys and I was trying to think of how we could get Aztec into the burner wallet and I've been thinking man we're gonna have to deploy Aztec over 2x die and then Igor comes along is like let's just bridge of them and so that this we can really kind of experiment out on the edge with what we could do with this stuff but then kind of pull it back and look at the other side at the top of the funnel is how we how we educate new users right now that we have lots of users coming in and they can just open up a web browser and have a wallet that's another thing that we need to be

really pushing the envelope on is educating them and getting them into a better wallet right like after you've used the burner for a little bit you know now it's ok to give them a download for a better app and now they're ok you know it's not it's not you at Dappy our just trying to get your beer you're actually trying to protect your funds and now it's time to slow down and learn seat phrases and download apps and I think that's something that we would really want to push with the burner wallet is just that education play and and kind of better on ramping for people into you know initiated crypto I really like that you're introducing it that way because I think the concern and how likely it is that people will just like accidentally delete their cash like I hope that that comes through constantly

that this is playground that this is like play game money almost like it don't to be taken too seriously but I do think that the ease of use will make it popular thank you cool well listen guys I want to say thank you so much for joining us on the podcast and taking us through this journey from proof of authority to proof of autonomy to bridges to X dye to burner wallets it's a long journey but it was it's really really exciting what you guys are working on it sounds like there's a lot of potential in it thank you so much for having us on this is great and a good luck at eat Denver that seems to be the show this is where it's happening it's

gonna it's gonna go up in flames alright so thanks again and to our listeners thanks for listening thanks for listening [Music]