WTF is MEV? Pre-Confs & MEV Commit Explained

Transcript

GM guys welcome back to another episode of the rollup today we are talking with morat from Prime Mev about everything me me obviously has been around a long time it has been this black box that everyone kind of knows about but doesn't fully understand today morat who was previously at block native one of the block Builders is going to talk us through the landscape of Mev as it exists today we're getting new innovative technology that protects users from toxic me like meev boost and now meev commit watch today's episode to learn more about me commit about pre-confirmation and everything in the ethereum block supply chain hope you

guys enjoyed today's episode before we get into it a word from our sponsors enjoy cartey is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology Tey enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cars.io that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today what is going on guys welcome back

to another episode of the RO roll up today we are talking about me which was something that like uh I thought when you know if we were looking back a while ago I thought this died when it was minor extractable value I was like oh I'm not a minor everything's proof of work ethereum's going to proof of stake why should I care about Minor extractable value turns out me and I think a lot of other people missed the boat uh because it quickly rebranded to maximum extractable value um and is now probably more important than ever in like really robust economic machine uh embedded into the fabric of ethereum as well as like many other blockchains and so uh today we're here with uh our friend morat uh from

pevchy up on me as well as pushing forward on commitments and uh some of the things that are happening uh in the block building and block production space uh as of recently so very excited to jump in morat welcome to the show thank you excited to be here and dive into these topic with you awesome man um quickly I I mean I think this is your first time on the rollup we did have a previous conversation uh on a different Channel but uh for everyone who's unfamiliar why don't you give your uh you know give yourself a little bit of an intro um and then we'll catch up on uh what meev has looked like in recent days yeah definitely uh I've been sort of a day one or I was on Reddit when the

Bitcoin white paper dropped so been in it for for a long time uh but most recently I was product lead at block native when uh during the merge of ethereum uh we ran a main net block Builder and uh the only non flash Bots relay spec at the time uh and that uh kind of put me in a a firsthand position into looking into all things MAV and and and the ecosystem that's surrounding it awesome yeah I was catching up with Matt from block nav as well out in Brussels uh some uh some leaders in the me space and so when you we're running a block Builder um you know why don't we talk a little bit through that that history and we'll kind of like let that pave the way

because nowadays I think it's pretty much common knowledge I want to demystify like any misconceptions that I think people might have about me and then just kind of like unpack what the what the like more recent and current state of the of the industry is um I think it's pretty much common knowledge now that block building is quite centralized um we even have uh iic and then the mega eth crowd that is saying like that's not a problem like it's fine that block uh production is centralized as long as we have uh decentralized block validation um that's my understanding of it maybe didn't quote that exactly correct but I'm curious like from your personal experience

running a block builder at block native you know what was that experience like how did you see did you see the centralization playing out and I realize that there have been some shifts now and so yeah let's first start with like what your experience was at block native running a block Builder and then we'll get into what you're doing now with prime F yeah I mean uh it generally it's it's good to kind of take this lens of like why do we have this centralized block production regime it's because we wanted to decentralize the validator set right so how could we decentralize the validator set how can we have a million proof of stake validators like we do today and the architecture for that ended up being okay we'll need to Outsource block production to these specialized entities to get the maximum

yield Etc so it's rather a trade-off that we've made and and we've said it's okay to have a little bit of centralization over here because the core of what we care about remains decentralized so it's always good to kind of put that perspective because people say oh the market seems to have uh you know evolved into centralization no actually Market has said that it's okay to have this bit of centralization over here in order to keep the main thing de centralized right so that's very important but um you know getting into some of the uh experience related and stuff it was just really exciting to have um you know another relay that was you know called Dreamboat at the time that uh we we launched a block native and um you know we nobody knew some of these um you know vertical integration

related uh advantages Etc like we found out that the flash Bots relay had this uh you know two sub two block submissions per second kind of rule and our relay did not at the time so people were able to win more without relay because they could submit these last second you know last millisecond even blocks Etc so it was very unclear what the Mev game was going to be in the in the in the scheme of block building right so uh a lot of people were thinking okay like if I can Bunch up the most order flow from the most wallets Etc I could probably make the most valuable blocks well it turned out that if you have this topof block Arbitrage transaction that you yourself put in because you're a sophisticated entity

you could create uh you know the most valuable blocks obviously order flow is is a part of it Etc but it just the the game evolved very quickly after the merge I would say over the the next like you know 20 months or so so it wasn't really clear how one would win and uh you know as you know as that evolved you you saw the ecosystem in evolve and and uh you know folks like Titan and beaver build also rise up and in our sync as well so uh that's that's kind of a brief history of how it came about uh and then um you know how how Prim have came about is particularly from the first Mev boost stewards meeting that happened at Devcon bogot in 2022 um you know I was invited as uh you know representative block

native but we had this problem that our users were telling us hey I want guarantees that I can be in this block that you're gonna be bu building and um you know we can give those guarantees about 10% of the time when uh we were actually winning those blocks but all those other times nobody else could give them either so you would have to go to each block Builder separately and get some guarantee and how would you do that right so I put forward this idea of what if there was a network that these users could deal with and they could Source these guarantees from this network rather than going to each block Builder and requesting them uh and that's how uh the early ideas of what's today Mev commit came about and and that's how Prima was found awesome okay so um I think uh we ought to get into Mev commit

maybe we can Dive Right In um and so why don't we unpack uh Mev commit but also the tools that block Builders and solvers and validators are using for like the entire like block supply chain um yeah yeah kind of go over those first I mean you have Mev boost which is kind of the largest piece of it all which is kind of the supply chain of block builders that are building blocks relays that are delivering the blocks to uh Mev boost instances that are run by uh validators or proposers in the case of proposing blocks so it's kind of this pipeline where um you know this payloads of transaction information are going through and they participate in this uh

what's called a just in time auction so basically there's a real time uh auction on um you know being able to bid the most amount of value in order to win that right from the proposer to give your block to the proposer and and having U or have built it right so it's it's an ongoing option they're bidding in real time these block builders for value and uh as a result uh at some point usually a little after now the slot um you know cut off time um you know the proposer picks one of them and and signs it and then uh the payload is delivered through the relay now uh a few kind of iterations of this Mev boost sidecar have come to Market um you know that

people are building basically their own forks and versions of it that have different flavors uh I I don't think it you know I want to like promote any of them here uh because you know we want to stay neutral to the side cars but at the end of the day uh Mev boost is the most widely used one uh and um you know there's more layers that are being built on top of it one of those layers is Mev commit right so it's this kind of commitment uh network uh for real-time commitments that you can layer on top of Mev boost uh it does not require any changes to Mev boost uh and it does not require an extra side card to be run by validators so it's uh 100% compatible and that's kind of part of its strengths and and we believe many other such

layers for different use cases could be uh built similarly on top of me boost using Mev boost essentially as a platform uh so uh yeah that's kind of the the the lay of the land in terms of the Mev pipeline today awesome okay so like my my smooth brain here just to simplify this down is like basically thinking of these as auctions right and and correct me if I'm wrong but em EV boost is essentially an auction between uh Builders and proposers right you you could you could summarize it that way I mean Mev boost is a piece of software in that software there is uh essentially the proposer is running this auction and

saying hey bid to me right hey block biller AB b c you know EF whatever send me your bids right and and and you as the proposer running this auction because you can just pick one of those bids at any given time you have that optionality so does not you know come with rules as hey this is when you can uh kind of uh commit to one of these bids uh right so you're you running that auction as the proposer uh and yes you know these bids come in and you pick one and then that becomes the block that you must uh you know propose okay okay now like I want to I want to go on a little bit of a tangent and there's this is like a dark forest and so I'm just kind of like feeling out and like seeing where we can continue I think this

there's another idea here where um my okay so my understanding of the proposer Network now um is that proposers don't know who they're going who's the proposer ahead of time um and so once there's a block for like once we're in line to produce the next block I'm kind of like told by the network that I'm the proposer and then I have to Source these bids to figure out what block I'm going to propose um now there's this idea of and so I have to pick a bid before the next block is is to be submitted um and I'm basically going going to pick the one that pays me it's gonna I'm gonna pick

the highest bit right yeah um and so there's there's this idea of multiple concurrent proposers that's being floated around right now like I saw the Paradigm guy kind of like Dan Robinson said like oh he supports this and I'm just genely curious if you could kind of unpack what that means and kind of demystify it for our audience because I think that's pretty timely nowadays yeah I support it too by the way I think it's a great thing for the decentralization of ethereum so the core problem here is this proposer has this Monopoly on what that next block will be right uh and you could argue that this is a point of centralization too I would certainly argue that and um one this the existence of this is is is a problem problem

because of this centralization Factor but also because it exists people kind of come up with all sorts of designs that piggy back off of this uh proposal Monopoly and that kind of further or cement the the centralization vector here so I believe going towards a vision where uh having multiple concurrent proposers is a better path for decentralization and it will uh surface better designs on all sorts of in protocol and out out of protocol approaches to all sorts of problems and solutions um but yeah the multiple concurrent proposers uh is a is a proposal for essentially breaking down this uh proposer Monopoly that there would be more than one entity that proposes this end block and none of them

quite know uh what's happening they only kind of have their own vision of their piece of the block and this uh kind of maximizes um the optionality for each of these proposers while uh you know barring them from uh seeing what else is happening or being able to fully take advantage of some opportunity that is there um so you know I don't think there are concrete proposals onto how it will come together with b bs yet um or or what it would mean for Block building Etc uh but there are some early proposals into how it could generally uh work and then I believe you know people will come uh figure out some of the details from there we probably should have started with PBS because I feel like we have these layers PBS is like

pretty fundamental meev boost is built on that and now meev commit is built on meev Boost right it's independent but it does work in tandem so you know you can run M commit without running um you know something else but really they they they work well together okay so to just kind of like like paint the full picture here PBS was something that was implemented with proof of stake and it was essentially uh to say all right we're going to separate PBS is proposer Builder separation uh we're going to separate the roles of proposers and Builders and we're gonna we're going to say that someone can build blocks over here everyone can compete and and all of this is in the spirit of healthy

competition right so that we can kind of like kind of like micro have these micro competitions with uh like more sophisticated actors and specialize in that particular area of competition and then we can kind of like funnel the winner uh for the most efficient pipeline of blocks through the ethereum supply chain and so we separated out and we've unbundled proposers and Builders and now we have uh these block Builders like like you mentioned Titan and beaver build that are competing to find the that build the most valuable block and then they're going to submit bids uh to the proposer that is selected for uh proposing the next block now me boost is

like the mechanism that allows them to bid right uh that allows Builders to bid to the proposers and offer them uh some sort of incentive or tip to to choose that block that they've built yeah um proposers are then like they're going to choose the one that has the highest value for them to propose um but with multiple concurrent proposers like how is this how is this picture changed because the way I see it like all these block Builders are competing they're going to try to build the the best block um and then they're going to submit their bids and the the best bid is going to get picked up if there's multiple

proposers like isn't I is there ever a case where these proposers don't just pick up the highest bid like why do we need multiple proposers when it's just going to be the highest the highest bid that gets picked up or is that not the case censorship is is usually the reason so what's happening on Mev boost today is actually they're they're not picking the theoretical highest bid they're first saying Hey I want an ofac compliance compliant block or a non ofac compliant block uh so a kind of a free-for-all type of block for you know maximum sensorship resistance or one that abides by oact rules now once you do that then you pick the highest uh bid that you know fits under that criteria

right so can I interrupt you just for a question so is that censorship Dawn at the Block building level or at the Block proposer level well you could argue both but really the proposer makes a declaration and saying hey I will only propose an ofac compliant block and once they say that then the block Builders uh you know build a block that is uh compliant for the most valuable compliant one right essentially right so uh and this is not great particularly and and the other thing is the block Builder has optionality to just censor whatever transaction and we're seeing some instances of this where you know they're competing in in this in this auction but in the last few milliseconds they'll figure out a really juicy

Arbitrage transaction and they'll say you know what like discard this whole block just send this block with this one transaction in because it's just so valuable so then while you're kind of participating in is in some sort of censorship where you're just saying hey you know you're just not valuable enough for me right at this moment sorry about your transaction uh and and you know the the proposer is still getting like the most value out of it but it's really not in the best interest of the protocol or the network uh so uh it will you know breaking down the proposer Monopoly will one break Avenues of these censorship whether it's ofac or some other reason and then it may have other impacts on transends action inclusion that is not purely based on profit but also you know

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please check out Everclear ever clear.org and welcome back to the L up ofac compliant transaction is a block that is ofac compliant would be a subset of the transactions that would make up a Nona compliant block right so it is it the case that like always uh the non-ac compliant blocks are basically strictly at least as valuable or mo more valuable than the ofac compliant ones because they're made up of essentially the same transactions except some of them are non-ac compliant so you can you can put those in there if you if it would make the block more valuable right uh you know if the block isn't full then in

most cases it would be more valuable including the ofac transaction but if the block is full then you have to see whether the fee about that ofac transaction is you know higher than one of the um fees of the other transactions in the block but generally I think it it would be okay to say that I mean these are just transactions you're leaving on the table right so why not in pure profit mindset okay and then with the case of multiple concurrent proposers would it be the case that like both the ofac compliant and the non non-ac compliant block get submitted to like now this network of proposers and then how does it work like who ends up being because right now it's just you get the network tells you who the

proposer is they're the only ones that can submit a block for that slot but in the multiple concurrent proposers world are is it basically whoever proposes the most valuable block is the one that gets submitted or who ends up being the proposer in that world I believe the the current specs being talked about are are about um you know partial blocks being uh submitted by these proposers uh and then you know I'm not sure if some algorithm or the protocol figures out how to how to combine them or maybe one of them is elected as some sort of leader to to do that um again we need more details on on the specs of this uh in in general and and you know even just a spec is usually not enough like you really want to see

because the devil's in the details and that's where where things get figured out but uh you know some of the smartest people are talking about this so I'm sure it will get figured out but yeah the current regime I believe is for each of the concurrent proposers to have a partial block based on what they're looking to get on chain and then um you know some sort of process figures out a combination of all that to uh create the final block got it okay so the the ofac compliant proposers can submit ofac compliant block partial blocks uh the non ofac compliant they can submit their set of transactions whether it's ofac compliant or not and then there's a smart contract that maybe figures out the right combination for the most valuable block and submits that to the network yeah I'm not sure it'll be a

contract because the process is offchain by nature uh but yeah some sort of process and then uh you know it will be a combined block so this would mitigate this censorship issue for those OFA transactions for example right okay cool and then we can ultim we can combine those by some set of rules uh and it's almost like there's like one we have like block builders for the little subsets those get proposed by uh proposers for partial blocks but then there's this one meta Builder that sort of takes those partial blocks and combines them at the end of the day as a as a last step before it gets submitted to the ethereum network yeah and I'm not sure if the latest kind of proposal are for that to be done by the network or for that kind of information to be sent

by the proposers to a block Builder and that block Builder kind of assembles that final uh block um again the devil's in the details here but uh yeah the the theoretically this multiple concurrent proposers approach would mitigate a lot of the issues that ethereum has to okay cool we we'll kind of pull ourselves out of that rabbit hole a little bit because I realize that there is still a lot uh of research to be done there so let's switch gears back to meev commit um and so I think we we've spent a pretty good amount of time kind of like outlaying like what the proposer Builder relationship looks like and how the the market mechanisms work between those two parties now let's layer in me commit who does that affect uh and how yeah it

affects uh all transactors and also execution service providers which is partially why we have two roles on this network you can either run a bidder node to bid and if you're a transactor you might want to run that and uh you can run a provider node if you're an execution service provider so uh in the case of L1 this might be block Builders case of L2 this might be a sequencer that is the provider Etc um so really the it's it's really that this this concept of the priority fee and the base fee that is you know applicable in the current ethereum pipeline is not sufficient to express everything that the transactor wants to express and you can you know Flash B has done a great amount of work to already expand this a

little bit with this e send bundle option where you can bundle a bunch of transactions in in some order you can specify okay these ones can revert and that's okay kind of thing and uh send it to blockers directly right but M commit bids provide is basically another layer of time sensitivity uh on top of the transaction that hey I want this to be almost immediately uh kind of committed to or or pre-confirmation is like hey I want this to be uh to get an execution uh guarantee right so you're receiving a commitment not only for um you know uh having that transaction be pre-confirmation to just go on chain I actually want the

mint the NF it doesn't help me if there's a you know it goes on but it just reverts and I don't get the nft right so I want that guarantee that it will execute so I'm willing to pay a little bit more uh so that I can receive that guarantee in real time um so uh you know that's where a lot of the the original thesis uh for for M commit was that this this time angle you know you have this 12 second slot and and within that slot you can get these guarantees interest slot and then the the execution angle that you know you will receive a guarant that it will execute are aspects that people would be willing to pay more for and we've asked a lot of people and and and and they were confirming it at the time but now that we have a live

test net we can see the actual value that this brings on to ethereum which helps secure the network as it trickles down the meel awesome so so what are you seeing in testet like what has been kind of like the the user feedback from some of the players in the pipeline um and and sort of how has this like what are some metrics that that you can give us uh as far as how this is going yeah we're still we'll still in its early days the latest release went out on July 10th so it's like right around e CC where uh execution uh pre-confirmation are the default essentially but since then and and today's the 31st for those who might be listening since then we've seen a little over five E worth of value trickle down Extra Value trickle down in

these blocks and um you know the average Mev boost block on mainnet is about .005 um e days and uh you know this added about 0.005 of uh value per block again this is on test net so take the results with a grain of salt uh but we're seeing anywhere from one to 21 uh transactions pre-confirmation layer on holky test net today um now this will mature and it will uh change a little bit as uh you know more people adopt the network and then we will see how it performs in the real world

environment when we take it to main net and we can see things like you know transaction State contention and how that affects bidding behavior and other kind of gas related spikes that might affect uh people's sense of urgency to bid more for pre-confirmation ETC but uh the fact that we're already seeing extra yield uh for validators that have opted into the network on on its test net is uh you know proof uh at least for someone like myself who's been working on this for close to two years now uh that you know this there's some real value here this is actually uh mostly good for the network in terms of uh getting more uh yield for validators which uh is a proxy for network security obviously awesome I got a bunch of

questions here um first of all like who when you say five eth has trickled down who does that trickle down to yeah so that's a great question um so what's happening today is let's say I'm I have one e for example sake and I want to bid one eth for my transaction to be preconiran-food.com Builder wins this block uh now what they

do is uh in generally they would in include my transaction in that block and and have it execute and uh they then the Mev commit Oracle would check that on the on the layer one and say okay this block was built by let's say Titan uh they did deliver on this commitment therefore reward this one e to Titan right so Titan has basically uh paid the value about this pre-confirmation upfront to the validator by participating in the Mev boost auction and uh then they recoup it back uh once they once you know this proof that they have delivered on this commit uh so the value uh pretty much um you know flows down the Mev boost pipeline from the bidder to the provider which is you know usually the block builder in the L1 case

and then uh down there to the proposer right because they're able to bid more in this me boost auction uh to the proposer um and then the proposer uh is able to uh they have more so they're more incentivized to choose the block with this pre-confirmation um okay and so uh this proposer is basically like a single validator right that is kind of chosen quote unquote randomly by the network um yeah okay and so um when when uh bidder is making first of all let's let's talk about why a bidder might make a a uh bid uh like a higher uh uh they might bid a certain

amount for some extra security assurances you mentioned like high gas cost um you know this isn't something that like a retail user is gonna do right this is like more uh institutional or sophisticated user that maybe has a large example here is like maybe they have a large position on a right they want to avoid liquidation so they're going to pay a pretty hefty sum uh to have their transaction of repaying some debt or adding some collateral included an not just included but a an assurance from a block Builder to commit to executing that repayment transaction or add collateral transaction high enough in the block or early enough in the

sequence that they would avoid liquidation is that that's kind of like why a bidder uh might that's one particular use case that a bidder might might submit a bid for higher assurances exactly yeah um and and and you know end users will definitely benefit from this they might not be interacting directly with it they might be interacting with some sort of orderflow auction where uh you know the solvers involved there are are doing this underneath and they're just getting those guarantees right similar to how the real world kind of Finance work like when I swipe my credit card you know I'm not really dealing with the complexities of Bank transfers and settlement underneath I'm just swiping my credit card and seeing a confirmation on my screen but a whole bunch of uh kind of sophisticated actors

are are you know doing things underneath to Del that very cool okay and so there's there's another element to this um okay so that covers kind of like top of funnel like why a bidder might submit a a higher bid you know beyond just a gas fee but uh uh some something at to the effect of like guaranteeing it execution um and so when they submit that bid you mentioned like maybe they submit that bid to Titan right and then Titan has an extra eth to uh to bid bid in the me boost auction when a bidder submits a bid is it just going to a single block Builder or is it going to like the entire network of Builders

anyone who's willing to make that commitment yeah so it would go to uh by default it would go to all providers on the Mev commit Network um you know assuming that most block Builders will be on there it could go to most block Builders but it you know mkit has programmable privacy so that you can go in there and say hey you know what I only want these three block Builders to see it uh or something like that and then uh you know your bid would be encrypted and and only they would be able to see that so uh you have the optionality as the bidder to uh you know select which block Builders uh or providers that you want them to be able to see your transaction I'm I'm starting to come to the realization that there's like this this phenomenon that's happening

of gas and and price variability like no really knows what the price of block space anymore is like when it was I remember maybe this was all the way back in Bitcoin maybe it didn't follow eth to prove of stake but I remember if I submitted the highest gas fee I was supposed to get like the best inclusion or execution right and it's just not the case anymore uh because everyone has these different uh incentives going on for the gas fees that they're going to submit but there's also another wrinkle to this where a lot of order flow is going through like private channels if I'm if I'm understanding correctly like I I I'm also aware of this tool from

flash Bots I think it's called me protect where it's supposed to protect re and this that's more of a retail uh tool for users to protect themselves from me they submit uh their transaction in a private Channel um so that other builders or other uh people that are watching the network Maybe Searchers aren't able to see that transaction um and they're not able to front run it back run it sandwich it so how how like when when you're taking into account like this this idea of private order flow and we're kind of like restructuring how the gas market is working this is a very general question

but like how how are you viewing the gas market nowadays with all of the private order flow um you know are are we leading are we getting to a place where we're just getting this Market more and more dislocated or is there a way to to arrive at a efficient market for gas and me commit is is one of the tools that helps us helps us do so yeah I mean the market is getting more sophisticated and and that's generally a good thing um you know you want a lot of sophistication to happen so that you can extract the most efficiency out of whatever system that that you have right obviously if you can have it wave of one and have it be simple it would be great but as long as you abstract that from you know the end

user or or or consumers then generally you end up with efficient uh systems now I'm not saying they're the most amazing systems and in an ideal world that's how they would be but this is how the real world works you know for me to get a cup of tea uh and from Amazon I might have that might have to get on a shipping container from China go go through customs and go through some sophisticated stuff and get here right but I don't deal with that uh so um yeah the gas is getting more complex and there's things like State contention that add to it right so you know in B Bitcoin you didn't have this because it's mostly kind of transactions to and from uh you know different addresses in ethereum you have state and and and the state kind of changes based on uh you

know a whole bunch of factors in the case of dexes there it's about price and liquidity and all sorts of other things uh and um you know that that state basically determines the amount of uh money you might be willing to pay to claim that State uh and then the case of Arbitrage where there's a price on chain and there's a price offchain uh that can determine how much that state is is valued at that that given time uh so uh you know and then there's other things like censorship so I might be willing to pay more not to get censored or whatever it is so there's just new and new angles to gas uh as as the system kind of matures and I don't think that's going to go away I think we're gonna get even more angles and what Mev kbit introduces

is this time angle and this execution angle right hey I don't want to wait 12 seconds to hear back from uh you know the result of my transaction I wanna I want to hear about it right now and uh you know in the case of a bridge experience for example um you know I I might have to wait a long time to bridge my coins from you know ethereum to let's say optimism and I don't want to wait that uh so I can have some sophisticated entity like a solver take on that risk use something like a pre-confirmation uh and and take on the rest of the reor risk and then give me my coins instantly on Optimus right so uh my experience will be that I'm paying slightly extra maybe but maybe that's even hidden from me similar to credit card fees right uh

and I just click a button I instantly have my coins on the on my destination chain underneath of Sol work they get pre-confirmation uh they absorb reor risk Etc yep okay and so the the way that I'm thinking about me commit is essentially like a market for pre-confirmation um which is Maybe one way to think about it and these actors that want to maybe protect themselves from Liquidation or get an nft Mint or or you know all of these re reasons and use cases for why I might want a pre-confirmation I'm able to pay a block Builder some extra gas for the pre-confirmation and the assurance that they're going to execute

my transaction it is that but really the pre-confirmation is is really like the the most basic commitment that you can get and then and and the word pre-confirmation really conveys you know the time nature about it but not these other Natures about like execution it being at a precise block uh it being at the same time as another transaction that is Elsewhere for example and and that that's how the the network Mev commit kind of matures into these commitment games right so you have these synchronous commitments where I might be a solver who's doing an Arbitrage in in two different uh dexes and two different chains and I want a commitment from the sequencer of this uh chain over here and the L1 block Builders over here synchronously so that I can uh you know

drisk my transaction as much as possible or provide some experience that I want uh same thing on the instant Bridge case we just covered right so the commitment there uh serves for much more than a Time based uh pre-confirmation uh and and and you get execution guarantees right so um you know one of the big problems on networks like Solana is that even though the network is really fast a lot of the times their transactions will fail so you know it's great that my transaction is is fast but you know I just fail faster now instead of getting some success so if I could receive a commitment uh from the Solana validator of some sort uh that uh you know this transaction would execute that would provide a much better experience than than just kind of

failing fast right and it can have even more robust guarantees that it will execute at the same time as my eth transaction over here at the same time as you know maybe multiple chains that I'm working on then I can really um make you know my experience as efficient as possible and drisk any execution related um cost that I might have yeah the idea of cross rollup or even cross L1 transactions I think that is a use case that uh is particularly fascinating and has not quite been unlocked yet um and so it's really cool to think about how we could uh operate cross rollup do c yeah cross rollup domains uh by market functions at the L1 level because these

ultimately settle to the L1 um and we just receive the assurances from the L1 uh and then we're able to arrive at some guarantees about execution at the l2s um and I I mean you know we were in Brussels vitalic I heard have a couple presentations about pre-confirmation um and then just Drake was also kind of involving this in like a based rollup based sequencing level and so what I what I gathered from vitalik's sentiment out there was basically like pre-confirmation are good basically people like pre confirmations because um well to get full finality is going to be slow and it's going to be secure and so

you know if we can provide some like Assurance some medium strength assurance that happens much much faster people are going to like that uh so that they don't have to wait to the full L1 um and so I think there is a strong appetite and I think vitalik was voicing this as well is there's a strong appetite for pre-confirmation um both at the rollup level and I think that's kind of like why people use rollups is like because it kind of provides them some assurance that their transaction will get executed um and it happens much much faster and much much cheaper than waiting for full finality yeah um I'm curious like from your perspective the other thing that I hear vitalik and Justin Drake and like the ethereum foundation pushing a lot is

is everything based right like because I think there is pushing that I think Justin's pushing that but yeah the based rollups yeah I mean uh it's been this Vision that uh you know Justin proposed that that's been interesting but there's a lot of contention within the EF about you know whether they're going to be a thing or that they're good I think vitalic definitely starting to um absorb some aspects of it based on my impression of his talks at at uh you know um ECC uh but um you know there's still things that are yet to kind of uh manifest there but I mean there's very exciting developments we're part of some of the developments at least with uh Tao and some other based rollup um you know

based rollup as a service kind of sdks um like Spire Etc um but uh you know the the full vision needs to prove itself still by you know going on Main net and and and delivering the the end experience that it that it wants to it's it's still able to do some uh stuff today but it's not ful there with pre-confirmation and all of these things that it needs to provide to really deliver that uh based rollup experience coent is solving the longterm data availability problem where a lot of the data availability providers today in the modu space when you post data to them they actually only hold that data for about 12 to 16 days and then it's

basically they can go into archive note or offer times it's just kind of put away into the abyss and what coan's trying to do is build this long-term data availability solution which can plug into some of these modular data availability providers and provide this longer term Perpetual data solution so what we try to think of this as is when you post transaction data onto Celestial or Veil or any of these modular da Solutions or even ethereum coal is able to provide a long-term data storage and data availability platform for that data after the time period blockchains are Billboards not databases and you know we need these providers in the space to be able to kind of hold on to the longterm

data that is provided from these providers and these blockchain State this is where coent comes in they just had a nice Rebrand check them out on Twitter as well as the website thank you for being here hope you enjoy the rest of the show and so what what is kind of the relationship or uh uh and engagement that you guys have with Tao how are you guys working with one another because I'm curious like I've heard mixed things about bass rollups and even just you know on this podcast I feel like like there's still some uh confusion about bass rups that that's out there so like how are you helping Tao achieved this Vision uh and don't have an official relationship I mean we we know the the

people there but we've just kind of created an open source repo tao. prom. eth and on that repo uh with uh you know started kind of uh playing around with the idea of uh you know Tao being able to use Mev commit uh for L1 uh pre-confirmation uh and and this will uh soon mature into a full-fledged endtoend experience that can be provided on Tao um so uh and and with us there's other kind of efforts uh around the ecosystem to have Tao have an uh intent pre-confirmation experience NE mind has been uh you know working on this as well I believe they they have a closer relationship maybe with Tao I think they mayble to see the grant about it um but uh you know there's there's other

efforts that are happening to make this based rollup uh vision of reality there are different kind of angles and and different takes in in design and architecture uh among these Solutions um but uh you know as long as we can deliver the end experience I don't think it it matters too much uh what happens underneath uh then then you know they can be optimized in various ways so we're pretty excited about base rollups in general um that does does not mean a vote of confidence in that it will definitely be a thing and it will uh you know be the vision that it needs to be but we're here for the ride uh to see if it does and we'll have learnings if it doesn't do you think like ethereum basically becomes this settlement ground not really too many people operating at

the L1 level but most of the block space for ethereum gets eaten up by l2s submitting their transactions no because gas is cheap these days I mean if you look at a g like I'm looking at uh the block native gas estimator right now you know it's it's 17 gay to get a transaction which is like not that expensive so if I have some funds on ethereum particularly if I have eth for purposes of ethereum like I'm gonna whatever stake it I'm gonna do something with it I'm just not going to go to another chain to do that so I think the it will like we will continue seeing e only use cases uh but a lot of this retail activity around you know maybe

it's speculative maybe it's you know minting the latest nft or or whatever it is a lot of that could go uh you know trickle do to the rollups in my opinion but I I don't believe that e L1 activity will be confined to like I don't think e is going to become the speed a PE B2B chain basically right I think consumers will continue to uh use it for their own purposes particularly I mean there's a lot of whales out there that have a bunch of eth and stuff I don't see them you know using some risky bridge to to you know put that on uh somewhere else maybe some of them will but yeah some some portion will continue to live and thrive on ethereum H okay interesting and so what I'm I'm also curious like

what was your impression of vitalik's presentations out there just kind of as we wrap up come in Full Circle back to like I was at his um sequencing Day presentation which was right after mine actually uh I I wish he was there for mine so he he saw it uh but essentially he talks about you know the guarantee that you you talk about which is kind of a little softer than this finality level of security uh but he also talked against uh leveraging the proposer Monopoly to do this right so some of the um you know pre-confirmation Visions out there leverage the proposer Monopoly to say hey this proposer because he has the ultimate power will then decide which transactions are preconiran-food.com but uh the the concept of It kind of

strengthening the proposer Monopoly and uh moving the needle further along this fat proposer thesis is particularly what vitalic uh spoke against a little bit so uh and and that's where kind of our design with MTH commit shines not to kind of show M commit more here but it's really that uh it does not rely on the proposer Monopoly it is compatible with multiple concurrent proposers as long as they can issue commitments and use this network it will continue to work so um and and you know then goes on to suggest well what if there was like a subset of like let's say two or three validators who could attest to this transaction and if you get all three then your transaction would be pre-confirmation and if you get a commitment from all of

them your your transactions practically uh on chain right so um you know I think he'll find out about this design soon especially as it goes to mainnet and uh in my opinion he'll be he'll be delighted to see the the route that we've taken with the design choices that we've taken and you know we've engaged with a lot of researchers in the ecosystem since we've been doing this for a while and there have been people who who said hey yeah this is actually a good design there have been people who have said hey you know I'm not really sure this is kind of like probabilistic and whatnot and then three to four months later they've come back and said hey you know what I've really gone down this path and this seems to be a better design that design choices you guys have made seem to be along this path so I

think um you know the knowledge Gap is closing when it comes to this and a lot of people are starting to see that um you know there really is a is a best path forward to give execution uh pre-confirmation and uh that you know almost has to come from block Builders or people who have deep knowledge of the current uh state of the transaction very cool where can people find out more about meev commit and uh and and dig into the research and and give you some feedback yeah um Mir precom eth is is a good one um so we all of our research is on mxyz prom. uh so you can read a lot about it there doc. prime. XYZ we have a

brilliant AI in there so you can just talk to the AI and don't have to go through every single page of the docs uh It'll point you in the right direction for your specific question um it might be the most knowledgeable uh anything about pre-confirmation it's a little bit better than humans in some ways and in some ways not um and uh you know following us on Twitter is a good one we put out research fairly uh often uh and um yeah that's that's I would say uh the the main sources if your code Savvy go on GitHub everything is open source everything's built in the open uh you know GitHub Prime will give you all of the meev commit related uh code and software as well um so yeah these are these are some of the top places that

you can learn more awesome thanks so much for coming on man it was a pleasure chatting me commit and pre uh maybe uh we'll do another one again soon on based rollups and Bas we be happy to and I think once we uh have mainnet results too similar to the ones that we have on testnet today things can get really interesting and that could be a good time to uh continue the talk when main that uh sooner than you think sooner than you think that's a good answer cool man