Wintermute: 'Avoid These Trading Mistakes!' Secrets of a Market Maker - Yoann Turpin. Ep. 541

Transcript

if you're competitive markets are quite quite a good Arena to play in but you have to be at least in the top three to make money turn $25,000 into 1225 million essentially or a be more you can segment things in different ways but I think uh what we call trading winter VI is musty Market making Pro side is easier and harder profit side is essentially access and filter can you get access to the IDE deal and when you have access to the right deals can you say this is a good deal I want to invest in or not you needed to have at least 14 Investments to see your money back and usually the first seven or eight will just go down to zero you have three or four or five

that basically return your money or give you a bit more then you tend to have one investment every less than 10 that actually just has you know yields 80% of your return return this episode is brought to you by nosis nosis builds decentralized infrastructure for the ethereum ecosystem with a rich history dating back to 2015 and products like safe cow swap or nosis chain nosis combines needs driven development with deep technical expertise this year marks the launch of nosis pay the world's first decentralized payment network with agnosis card you can spend self- custody crypto at any Visa accepting Merchant around the world if you're an individual

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one welcome to EP Center the show which talks about technology projects and people driving decentralization and the blockchain revolution I'm Brian Crane and today I'm speaking with Y Turpin who is a co-founder uh of wi mute V mute is one of the largest or maybe the largest uh Market making company uh in crypto and yeah I think it's a a field I'm super excited to dive in here so H thanks so much for coming on yon thanks Brian thanks for inviting us we're the largest spot Market making firm we're not the largest across derivatives yet not yet working on it with so spot spot is TR def5 most likely as well uh

getting there you know working to be so so we can't claim the full name yet across the crypto space in general we need we need to do a bit more on derivatives but but we're working on this thanks for the invite no thanks so much for for coming on uh yeah we we hung out a bit in Singapore recently and it was really great to talk and I'm super excited to like dive into dive into V mute but maybe to start off like share a little bit like how did you become interested in trading and markets well okay trading in market so be well be well before crypto so um to be like full disclaimer so I'm 41 and I

started to getting interested in trading when I was 12 and uh I was essentially reading um newspapers so my my dad would be a subscriber to something called the Figo in in France and they had essentially they had a main newspaper for just typical news uh politics and and the likes and they had like they had like uh also what we call the salon papers which are essentially like similar to the F sort of the the market papers and I was just going through this and I was just took a took a passion to read through that one of these kids who had kind of um 120 options of like what they wanted to do when they grow up uh so I wanted to be you know like whatever doctor ex a physician astrophysicist

between essentially the age of 7 and 12 and then from 12 I really wanted to be a Trader so I I got into this discussion with my my dad had a like a stock portfolio that he would manage we didn't have we didn't have the internet per se we had minil so minil was quite quite popular in France at the time you just log in into the 6637 was similar to web page but you just type in a number uh and essentially we just log in into the what was the Credit Unit at the time and just we could just buy buy stocks as such so I started I started like this uh putting some putting some orders into to to buy stock some with my with my D money when I was 12 it wasn't it wasn't a ton of money but it was just

enough to be able to passion for it and then uh I got him to buy me like an options book when I was 15 it's my first options book and then basically I couldn't trade options basically I found a way to trade warrants you essentially you could only buy stuff I was right directionally but I realized that that the banks on the other side so essentially warrants are a bit different from options in the way it's issued by Banks um or they like a warrant issuer and essentially they were taking so much margin that I was I was right in my bats but I was giving too much margin away and it's probably one of the first things that led me to think of more like Market making per uh so I kind of hired one of my like a little cousin who's I think he's five years younger than me

over a summer and I was going through like TR of finding Arbitrage across the page and so so anyway I started suay qu earlier on Market uh in general I think the theme has always been that I would go through different subjects and I would get a bit bored of it um half of my family is entrepreneurs half of my family are Educators and then one thing I I really didn't want to do at the time is just you know not be a teacher as such because I thought it was just bit too repetitive you know going through the same lessons and in teaching the same things every year and one aspect in markets that I love it is it just changes all the time you have these economic Cycles say every three four years or so you can see that in crypto you get like a you know winter people

call it more like seasons and such and it just changes enough and it's noisy enough that it forces you to relearn things and so on so I found that oh if I if I want to have some sort of career for 10 20 plus years it needs to be linked with markets so in the way that it needs to just be refreshing enough but yeah that's that's the long short of it and then I ended not always aligned with the customers

and I didn't really like it and I found that trading was much more aligned with it it's pretty clear where the p&l comes from like it's just um found was just a very honest way of of making money so I quite I quite like that aspect you get very clear feedback very tangible feedback if you're doing things right you basically make money if you're doing things wrong you lose money it is much more like honest per say say I think it gave me a sense of Independence as well to the degree that you can trade some things you know on your own as such but I think it was more uh there's also know quite a lot of things that we do today at a typic data which we can only do because we have the infrastructure

because we have the team in the background uh this quite a lot of things that have to be quite collaborative between you know getting everything aligned between the right access to Capital right access to exchanges right like just to um inventory per say um right strategies and so on so I think I think there's also a collaborative aspect that's interesting there I think if you're competitive markets are quite quite a good Arena to play in because it's Global pretty much from day one so if you think about us when we started in the crypto space it was essentially dble from day one so you know you know if it's going to work pretty quickly then it's you know just drawing some sort of parallel with the 0o to one like when it

when it works you know you want to be in the top three definitely ideally you're the first one in a certain vertical as such so say you want to be first one in you know spot spot trading as such um but you have to be at least in the top three to make to make money I know we we interact on Twitter here and there and so and this more about I think people get somehow satisfied to be doing a bit better but I think the the realization especially in trading is that is you need to be doing better than the competition all the time and um and it's a bit more of a you know say this this marginal advantages that you need to to add on to that make it quite competitive so it's it's just

um yeah keeps you on your toes I want to go into this but maybe before that then what's the story of how uh vute started there's a convergence of two things there's a convergence of um yini set up the company 25th of July 2017 and he he was doing like a little sort of hackathons here and there with our first CG har and then on my side I essentially I had already built a few companies a few trading related companies but OB also some startup studio um a bit more of of the VC advisory firm as well and on my side I was going back into trading

20167 and I was sitting next to this x martial waste I don't know if you know of Martial waste but it's a is probably the largest long short hedge fund in London that you know s s Philip Marshall I think I think it's Philip uh made you know a few billions out of it but essentially they manag something like 8690 billion do of of vum and they and they do do a lot of you know long short more the equity space and uh one of their first employees was setting up was sitting knock too far from me on a trading desk and he was setting up his own microphone and he was all over crypto 2017 so we reviewed a lot of icos together about 56 I think and he wanted to have a Maco hedge fund that would

have actually a crypto sleeve what they call it so essentially you have a macro that have different strategies and you have a sleeve of it so part of the allocation is in crypto and he wanted me to manage that allocation so it came to mind that well I can't do this alone I need a uh um you know I can trade but I need someone else to help with yeah I just just automate like everything some more of a CTO and I need another Trader because it's 24/7 and then essentially just start I reconnected just discussing very openly with some ex colleagues from from Trading um suggested me to reconnect with you and then we we aligned on this and I Jo did as a co-founder essentially late 2017 uh we put everything on paper with

with our C actually on early 2018 um so that's the that's the general thing that he he had just left a trading farm and he wanted to do something crypto and I and I had basically the allocation we did we did not end up taking money from from that fund actually uh but I was enough to just just s d it like rekindle the interest for me to to get into crypto and um philosophically for me was more like I had done both trading and VC before and I found that crypto was super interesting in terms of like democratizing like liquid this one we call like liquid Venture essentially so very early stage bats but um that you could get access from just with trading very very early out which I couldn't find in the private

markets anymore like private and public markets in web two to to add some background to that brand Web Two like um I had done First non-listed Investments 2008 and I was a pretty active Ango investor so in London and so on between 2012 and 15 16 let's call it and what you I think you still have this in web to where in the past like 90s or so you'd be able to uh you you'd be a city investor at Amazon Amazon just lists like three years later some some sometime around 99 you can still buy Amazon at $1 you can actually get a lot of the growth and you can get a lot of

The Upside but after 2010 especially while you getting into the urb listing you get into the Facebook listings and stuff and that there's not there not necessary a ton of upside left uh so everything just lists like 10 15 years into the life of the company and it's much more well what we call in crypto exit liquidity but risky Equity like typical web to uh shareholders of listing companies just end up becoming you know exit liquidity for VCS or or private Equity groups essentially so I was I found it really refreshing that crypto was trying to solve that problem essentially and uh another aspect that I love in crypto is it's more lot I've deal with you in the trading space and

the hatchman space from space inside and people can be a big Cy and and those and those spheres and I found that actually like people in crypto were always quite quite open and maybe yeah maybe you made some scammers here and there but actually in general like people are qu uh they have pretty good will and and quite a lot more interesting to interact with so I'd love to get a bit into sort of trading and like I think a lot of people they have and I you know they will know tra a lot of listeners will know sort of trading in the sense of you know okay I have some US dollar some Euro or something I want to buy some Bitcoin I go on like an exchange and I

put in uh you know maybe a market order maybe a limit order and I I buy I buy some tokens right like or like maybe I do it on the exchange I buy some shares but I think that's probably the extent to which most people people uh you know listening here will understand trading and obviously that's something very different from having the things you did previously at uh you know before crypto you know this training company or then ad inter mute so can you tell a bit like what what's trading when when you say you know you're trading like what does that mean and what does that look like you can segment things in different ways but I think uh what we call Trading

interview is musty Market making so essentially like we they in the order book so we they in in a marketplace with they exchange and we we we're there to always be there so that if someone wants to buy or sell there's someone on the other side Someone Like Us Market Mickey there's someone on the other side there to to fill our order um because let's say if if you Brian if we both individuals and somehow like you want to sell Bitcoin at 70k and I want to buy it at 60k nothing happens you know and then the market makers are there to make sure that you know like we we we we always show what's what's called a bid in offer so a price at which we can buy and a price at which we can we can sell and

then we all we try to be there to always to to to make to make trading easier and the cheapest possible um so what we call trading tends to be you know associated with Market making now most people to your point like most people call trading like trying to buy with at $1 hope that it goes to $2 uh you know and and that's uh that's often yeah not the greatest strategy I think the way that most people should be trading in in crypto is to see it as Venture and essentially like put x amount of money either they don't do any research and just stay like BTC and Ethan sort of the the top sort of 4 five

names as such um we start to see more what's called you know more Basket products and more index products as such that that would give you exposure to the top 10 20 30 names um which is for most people is probably a better way to do things as uh as have you trying I mean I don't know how do you try let's ask this this all that way are do you I know you've done some Venture Investments but do you do you trade anything any liquid tokens I'm very like Buy and Hold and don't do much else and you know maybe do you do any do do you have any leverage when you take a position or no no okay sounds like Leverage it's pretty good I

I don't have the impression that I'm good at predicting you know basically Market movements so I don't I don't try to do that yeah so I mean that's quite real show I have made money historically with some some Cycles like in stocks all like taking directions but but through through previous FS not not through not necess through winterview as as VCS as as the Venture arm is doing quite well but it's very much like Venture investment so again to separate like I think what you refer to as trading is much more liquid Investments but on the private side private side is is private side is easier and harder profit side is

essentially access and filter can you get access to the right deals and when you have see the right deals can you say this is a good deal I want to invest in or not and and that's that's Venture for you the problem usually of venture or or you know in crypto or in some other those spaces is just um it's just that you you married to the position the good thing with it is that you don't tend to have any leverage so if it goes down to zero it goes down to zero but you you you you get psychologically D it's much more used to to things going on to zero now you'll understand why I mentioned this for for trading is that I think most people should consider even when it's liquid crypto they should consider it like a venture bet they should consider that they're actually making an

investment that actually should be pretty much res down to zero and they also should look at the stats of actually Venture Investments so Venture Investments for like I don't have the stats for crypto but like for web 2 Angel like even 10 15 years ago you could already get all the stats where you needed to have at least 14 Investments to see your money back and usually the first seven or eight will just go down to zero you have three or four or five that basically return your money or give you a b more then you tend to have one investment every less than 10 that actually just has like you know yields 80% of your return and that causes some challenges when you think of how people trade which

means that um the winners should essentially return 10 plus times the wiy and I think think it's very very hard psychologically for most people to think of like keeping something that does 10x and not not sell it before it reaches 10x another parallel with this is that um do you know what valuation the Uber investors invested seed it's 2008 so 2008 do you know do you know what valuation they invested I don't know no three million dollars so essentially when Uber listed people had a 5 and a half th000 X so whatever J K and his friends and

son made like turn 25 M $25,000 into 1225 million essentially a bit more but um that that's that's basically the math so if it imagine if Uber had been liquid before that I'm pretty sure they would have you know sold some of it and it's a bit of the challenge of like thinking of investing in crypto is uh you have you end up Liquid venture and you need to find a way to trade maybe you know but like if you sell your five if you have 100x but then it turns into 5,000x it's quite a big Miss so it brings us some the challenges like comparing to the Venture and like trading trying to find the best way to

trade is is actually pretty hard so with with the market making that you guys do inter M how do you make money we basically are forced into position we don't want we call the position is basically being long or short so long as you make money if things go up short to make money if things go down and we force into position by providing you know liquidity by just basically saying if you want to buy Bitcoin for me yeah because let's let's say there's a particular coin and then you you have you have buy orders and you have sell orders uh and so that means you have to hold uh both sides what cost this money in the first

place is infrastructure people to you know run Aros to send the orders and so on cost of capital to uh cost of capital to to borrow usually borrow the conss you know on each side um and then even if sometimes we get slightly cheaper borrows but there's still commitments there's still some things that are associated with it and the borrows are often from the from the team or Foundation or whoever is issuing the token that's much less than half of what we have in the balance sheet but but yeah some some of the borrows are some of the borrows are from from Nations some other the borrowers are used to be from The Lending borrowing platforms you know

like Blackfire and the rest and then most of them actually W bu so we have some borrowers in defi that you'll know through like wild cap people the maple of the world and so on but essentially um yeah a lot of borrowers come from you know some of our shareholders or so just just direct from you family offices and so so we we borrow directly from foundations and other people so we have a certain cost of capital and then we make money by essentially being in the order book and trying to capture as much as possible of the spread so we essentially get paid over time to take risk because we pushed as as I was saying earlier we pushed into a position because you want to buy we don't necess want to sell but say we say we want to

sell it you know that price and then we hope that we can hedge it as in we can buy back whatever we sold to you we hope we can buy it back at a slightly lower price but let's say I I want to buy a token and then um you guys have to sell order so now you're buying that token at that sell order and then do you hope that maybe you can sell it at a different exchange at you know a better price than or buy it buy it at a better price than uh you sold it to me or do you hope that the price moves Market making is actually let's let's summarize it it's quite simple it's

quite simple to explain but quite difficult to implement it's PR Market making is just what what do I think this and to this that Bitcoin is worth a Time TI how why do you want to quote and how what sort of size do I want to quote to so you just have width quote size and then your your mid price or what what I think the theoretical value of the the the toen is and then we quote around this and is yes there's small amounts of money that come from arbitraging so basically be able to sell uh you know near enough at the same time sell on one exchange uh the same asset and just buy buy buy on another exchange at a at a lower price but yeah often it's just it's is pretty much trying to you know

price price things as as well as possible so it's it turns out to be like it's much more about it's quite a competitive space in the way that why to be able to trade both sides we need to be really within the shad so we need to be you know the best offer on one side and the best bid on the other side and it's um it's very it's for structure different so it means that we need to be able to to adjust the orders safely so we don't let taken out by other people um so there's some infrastructure cost in that and obviously like have you know there's Capital constraints there's there's cost of capital uh that uh you know because we we we borrow all these assets yeah long story short is that we we we we make money by uh taking your rest

buy you know we don't necess want to be short this a Bitcoin we want to buy a Bitcoin and now if you have different uh different companies that compete different market makers that compete I mean you mentioned you know you need to be the top or top three and stuff to make money but what what differentiates the you know the top from the other players so that's a that's an interesting discussion I had even in CHF when I was I was I had my first Venture in trading in 2011 and I exited in 2014 and I was looking at um trining some other to five firms and just trying to trying to learn from other people basically my first

Venture was the senior the one senior Trader there and I and I thought I didn't really learn enough and I think a lot of it is actually much more about like cultural differentiation I think if you can attract them my talent people are very honest and they can actually just build I think I think there's an aspect of uh people being alone being being being there being Traders for the right reasons often people don't actually stay Traders just for money it's it can be quite rewarding financially but it's actually often people just get if you are just interested in money they just get the first bonus and they sort of leave and they do something else that's a lot less stressful uh so either people people can like math they like whatever problem solving they like there's other aspects that make it interesting and the math

comes in like because when you you is basically around determining the so the midpoint the WID and things like that that's when you use some kind of data analysis yeah yeah you try to you try to predict as well as possible yeah it's never an exact science which is why infrastructure comes into play quite heavily where it becomes a more exact science because you end up trading very high frequency I think some people know the term hft is sort of high frequency trading as a as a f and you end up trading it they end up making money every day at least at the start and then and ideally every hour um because you trade very very high frequency year

they're trading I think we trade four five six million times a day these days um so it becomes very granular so it just um it also becomes very infrastructure dependent so it means it means you need to you need to have essentially 50 plus people to uh to go and um You Know cover um just make sure that everything is running smoothly and especially in the crypto space between sort of between CI D5 between the OTC side of the business between an API offering you end up Crossing quite a few things getting into this a little bit like what if you compare Market making in a traditional Market versus crypto you know what's the what are the biggest

things that you need to be good at uh you know specifically to do well in crypto markets so I can tell you what I think I think is a good differentiation for the business is that we build a very good brand and reputation by being being honest people and not looking for like the the shortterm optimal recy which will for line long time so I think that was that was quite key so maybe you can explain why that matters because you think if oh if you just have the orders in the exchange and you know it just takes the best order I don't even know who's on the other side so on that side it sort of shouldn't matter right so as soon as you try OTC you face cter parties what we call cter parties

they're not really customers as such they just because we Tred as what we call as principes so we try our own Capital um so essentially you want to be reliable like when you show a price basically you know you you there um for a certain price for a certain size for x amount of time so reliability is being more predictable is worth something so making can be done I think people in cryptospace are used to hear the term towards foundations but it's also towards exchanges so if you're reliable towards exchanges do that when things move around but so on then the exchanges um The Exchange is just the room essentially and then you need the

exchange needs people like us to be in the room to trade with some other many of the users and if you're reliable as a market maker on an exchange and you know you that when things move and on essentially the users will have better execution will have a better experience in general and and that's quite that's quite valuable to an exchange um and then you just build good good relationship with us long time so it's more akin to a partnership with an exchange than than anything else and then do the exchanges also pay directly for the liquidity you provide very nice and ones do but like usually usually they don't you know you want to be in a situation where they're big enough where the they're big enough so that the opportunities they show are

just yeah they we there to take risk with our money and and and take risk you know providing liquidity as such but then the exchange should be there to um what to bring new users on board and do the do the onboarding into the crypto space essentially one thing I didn't mention that's really really key to how we build the business is that uh and especially the difference between crypto and um crypto and then the the the trf space is that there's a whole defi limit that we we actually focused on early on especially from 2019 and we found it it was quite a good differentiation to the business but also it's something that we could only do because we

were much long longer term Focus so essentially we took VC money and we were we very much pitched ourselves and we still see ourselves as a as a tech company first before being a trading company so we essentially took V you know V money which is is quite different from having investors from a Hedon space or trading space which me that we didn't have actually people on our back asking every day like what the results were and we had more people much more patient just building uh letting us build infrastructure first so 2019 we started on uh um on dydx for example in around August 2019 and that enabled the rest of the business to actually be more robuster around essentially onchain

transfers um to the point that we're probably driving manen users quite crazy at some point thinking that they were following smart money but they're just seeing transfers going back and forth you know so so if you have tens of thousands of transfers I don't know I don't know what sort of signal they can get from it but probably not knowledge for us so I think that's a big differentiation of being able to trade on chain is is quite a differentiation from the tri five was the biggest difference about trading on Chain versus on centr exchanges there aspects around obviously just direct integration with the chain but there aspects of um while managing your own custody thinking of potential you know

sandwich uh attacks as such um thinking of the risk of actually not really being failed as well if uh you know the cost of just you know uh pushing for transaction and not always knowing exactly when the block is going to be you know confirmed uh there's there's a there's quite different level of uncertainty in terms of you know what you traded when you didn't trade uh between you know defy and essentially CI and like the traditional Finance so these these things are quite is quite different on the other side once you've made the effort to integrate and to build a certain amount of defined knowledge then this you know if it's a barrier to entry for you it's a barrier to entry for for

the people as also so um say yeah it's it's whatever it becomes it becomes becomes a competitive Advantage this some aspects that we we realized later as we were starting to invest so we started to invest in uh different projects from late 2020 essentially from the summer 2020 um when I think every probably dydx for a don't know if it was a series a or series B at the time already um but essentially because of the operational experience and trading experience and dealing with these with these def5 protocols we had a good amount of insights on just doing a technical due diligence for investing so

we up just um we ended up yelling like different relationships with VC firms for example which just basically are coming to us and like not only from a a potential trading perspective to help you know build some other the volumes for them but also in terms of just getting feedback on due diligence or just just how robust was a certain protocol for example what do you feel like were the key thing things that allow the interv to get you know become so big I mean it's very competitive space right H full alignment of Planet full alignment of so full alignment of planet where where you want to get into position there's a bit of an execution play in terms of because we we had a really good team to start with in terms of the experience we had

in so so I had experience raising money you built essentially it's the first company if ever built but he had a he built the ETF arm of of a large Market maker or tredy Market maker in Europe um so he he had good experience in ETFs and I had good experience in not option trading but also just raising raising funding as such and our first the was quite quite good in terms of getting the first skeleton of infrastructure so we had a we had some drisking there um one factor that was interesting is because we ended up closing the first round of funding in with quite a lot of difficulty in the middle of 2018 crypto we ended up in a space that was actually

quite empty and then we ended up dealing with 30 you know OG groups in crypto life CL and on who are quite happy to have us around around and um you know in Winters basically the pond is very small so you only have like a few fish that survives there and then it's actually quite good this is pretty healthy interaction does the if you're resilient enough you just quite quite happy that I think you guys you guys started around the same time you about six and a half seven years old as well not yeah yeah yeah of course when we started at um yeah basically start of 2018 I think it's excellent for that like in terms of the the base because you're just very focused on building you're not really distracted with just like like we all know is it's very

distracting um but it's fine I'm just more more than happy to see like new highs and so is just by the price do the prices do the marketing for us essentially but in general it's kind of it's easier to I think I think there's pretty good history even in web 2 and web one and so on in terms of people building successful companies starting like in crosses years uh so that that was helpful I think it was really helpful that two things it was really helpful that you you had a really clear idea of like being take fast and being like very much product driven and being you know everything being automated and um we never really had Trader roles

we've always had um Devan Trader rolls so anyone basically just codes and like everything gets into in into play very very very very soon very very quickly you mean so this this basically means that like it was always to focus on like you know building a system and building algorithms as opposed to because I mean I guess it's always algorithm Market making no I mean I guess the people not doing this manually no but you be surprised that there's a lot of transfire firms who who have very separate roles between people who there's Quant roles build people who build the alos they're actually traders who do like little more manual trading

actually um so you'd be surprised that we we still have even in crypto star competitors who are actually trading a lot more manually than you would think um so I think there was there was strong Tech Focus there um and the the tech the Moto is things being reliable and scalable as um then on my side I had good experience with you know raising raising equity and raising debt uh so we had the capital the access to Capital sorted and we were all very aligned in the vision of having um like in terms of the culture having essentially it was more startup like when we started then now we had to find

um we had to compensate people with a hybrid of like bonus and shares over time because they were just getting poached a bit too too much by essentially hedphones and um you anyone who wanted to enter the space because the shares were too like too much of a longterm thing and yeah so it's it's still still a balancing act but I think we've got something quite quite nice nowadays I think I think you end up with something like uh yeah a program where people have few shares but they get some some bonus once a year or so and then they can reinvest that bonus as as as as they chosen we start to need to have basically some secondary R here there

like we we invest a bonus in in like buying shares or in like lending it to the company or something yeah yeah essentially so and and we we very much want to we have some VC shareholding as such but we really want to be as employee owned as possible and and it makes a ton of sense for for for companies that you know trade their own Capital essentially because you want best alignment possible between people who who trade and people who you know own you know on the capital these things we got right some of the things were difficult to fully align on at this because some of the things are much

longer term in terms of building the brand building the BD side of the business versus building building the the day to-day algo and trading side of the business but I think we got we clicked around you know late 19 early 2020 when we had the first you know first coover hits in in March and the first big dips in um the first big dips in the in the Bitcoin at the time where actually we saw all the ALG good is actually quite robust and we started to sted sty to make real money but essentially we started to we were building the rocket for two years we only started to really put F in the rocket two and a half years in or so so so that took that took some time or was

that because like the algorithms weren't good enough some of it some of it was because of this some of it was because we didn't we had not we had not rich enough of a critical mass between what we could show exchanges that what we could become because essentially you know exchanges you need to you need to build a set volume to actually get into better and better Fe sheds that was a challenge and it simply like we we had not built enough in terms of getting yeah getting cheap cheap enough access to to to De as well uh so we're using you know Equity Equity fundraising to you know hire and you know be a the tech but actually for for

trading itself we needed to to borrow and and getting slowly getting access to Adventure was uh was uh it becomes a bit binary Bas kids nowadays we're one of the two to three firms to get essentially first steps on on access to inventory uh because require reliable and because we we we try to do things quite quite when you say access to inventory what do you mean your ability to borrow tokens from all the teams or the people in general so inventory is so we we trade what we call Market neutral so we don't make money things go up and down but it means we need to we can't we can't buy inventory all the t uh we can't buy the tokens themselves because if we buy the

tokens that we're sensitive to things going down that um often we can we can quot a lot larger size by simply borrowing the tokens and trade around it yeah yeah I mean I guess you can see also here the sort of um advantages of size no because like yeah you trade more and then because you're trading so much the I guess the exchange trading fees matter a lot and then uh makes it hard for someone to compete yeah 2019 we we still had the down year because we 80 plus perc of the money we were making trading was going into fees wow but it was just and something like a roller THM that kind of works for

me like for for PS I don't know exactly where we are nowadays but it was more like if a third of the the money we make if you make like $1 on a trade and you spend 30 cents in fees you can kind of run a business um because you start have financing cost be you have to pay your people you still have some you know if you still have money left you still have to pay bonuses and taxes and stuff so so so like one third is maybe like moderately but it's where where you can start scaling but um but yeah 2019 was essentially 80% of the money going to exchange fees in terms of the interviews company culture talk I mean you mentioned some

things about you mentioned this thing of like you know trying to be a sort of startup mentality having like sense of ownership and and also it's like long-term Focus do you feel like there are other things about the interviews culture or maybe the way you've hired people that have been crucial there's a bit of um so for further background I think I mentioned uh maybe I didn't make it clear um Y and I used to work for a company called Opa in in Amsterdam so the the the qu large firm still very much an option firm in TR fight and uh and it's very much the Dutch culture is 100% imprinted to that company and and how you know brutally

honest Dutch people are and then essentially it's it's part of the culture there's also a big differentiation why we we took we took the best from from it and the way that it's a completely companywide bonus Bol and we took the same thing which is what I what I noticed that and a lot of training firms are structured very differently a lot of trading firms have like little solad teams and no one shares information but actually when you're in a firm and trading firm that actually has a companywide bonus pool people do behave a lot more like shareholders as such or or at least think that uh if they share knowledge with you know Junior the senior people sharing knowledge with Junior people it it

just there's there's a lot more of that Dynamic when people are people are happy to to teach other people and that's basically some percentage of the profits go to this bonus pool and then how do you determine who gets how much of that bonus pool [Music] there's still uh still something that that we're working on to to perfect but there's this philosophy that even people like with us there's even people are like illegal so like or can't say everyone is a p contributor to a degree we have internal recruiters and so on and external recruiters but I say we also assume that everyone helps recruiting so I think there's a few functions like this were also

like we want people to feel that own is as much as possible uh and and I think that's that that has worked well I think uh I mean a general advice for how many people do you have nowadays in course one like 6ish 65 something like that and when did you I'm assuming at the start you were always involved with hiring when did you stop being involved with Hing oh I still am I'm still okay that's good that's good yeah I'm still interviewing basically everybody my Ru of thumb is like the first 20 people or so it's really really key to get right because then they you imprint the culture of the

company B on the first maybe five 10 20 people and then they actually do then there actually people you heard who who who help you scaling not way scale cult TR yeah I know I'm still for I for me I see like interviewing as like just really crucial and and I think I'm pretty good at it so I I focus quite a lot on it and and and at the same time I feel we haven't figure it out well or like I like one of the things I still really want to do and I don't think we're there is sort of to figure out how to um formalize or systematize like the interes I do so that I feel like okay I

can have like other people do it I mean there was just there's a few people that last year I was out for like a few months or like month and a half because that this like health issue so then there was a few people be hired that I didn't interview but I've interviewed except for like three or four people I've interviewed everybody that's interesting I get less and less involved with that I don't know I me check with I'm pretty sure he doesn't get involved with everyone but I think we very struct to maybe May we've got too many rounds of interviews and stuff maybe now how many rounds do you guys have like for a BD person about five they go through like a use case and so on um for technical interviews for like like some

of the OBS some of the some of the the infrastructure guys I'm I'm not too sure but I think I mean beyond that I think cultural fit is still really a key part of it I think if yeah they fit in the culture and that's kind of the the challenge of the question now that we're expanding across Asia is just maintaining that culture say uh see that they fit in the culture culture like how do you how do you what questions you ask or how do you assess that culture of it we get so depends on the role often for like traders who move from John fight to crypto we know ex we we'll have some ex colleagues we'll know people who who know them we can get a lot of third

party validation I think there's a there's a there's a red line around like very much like honesty that's quite key uh long-term Focus yeah people being entrepreneurial being quite self-reliant to be honest like quite quite I like to see self-propelled like you just don't really need to just push them much we have a lot of people in the company that I can just go and pick at 3 4 a.m. like I need to tell them go too bad so my head of trading is like this there's a few people this I think there's a there's a strain of workaholism that's uh that's I like to think it's well placed enough but then you need to force people to be on holiday you though um quite a few people in the be team in in single Bo like this

yeah I I think there this this there few other Ms like this I'm like sort of the work ethics is very key and thinking longterm enough and being much more Mission driven than mercenaries and so on the challenge is I think hiring like the interview process is is often not sufficient so I think it's just like the the you know the first one two three first month is is often key to make sure that we didn't make a mistake but um we don't I think we we've done a good enough job to be honest like surprisingly enough in that in the hiring because we don't like we don't let that many we don't have many people even leaving that much or uh we did hire fairly slowly

think about it like found it in you know July 2017 we had the first hire in September we officially OCT 2018 and then finished the year with like basically five people total finished 2020 barely 10 or 12 finished 2021 we did all 2021 with between 20 and 25 people and now they really started to hire more because we we we turned much more into a product company from 2022 and I think we finished with 50 people 2022 or so a slowly really really slowly Hing but thanks to that we never we never had a we never had any rounds of layoffs or so yeah yeah that's very similar r usse one of the things that

uh noce a course one in terms of hiring that I feel like has been one of the most reliable predictors is whether people are really passionate about crypto and and it happened a bunch of times that we hired people who were you know they seem like a good fit in other regards or like you know we really needed someone for the position but they didn't really seem to care much about crypto and then none of these have worked out they all ended up leaving basically yeah we had this with uh it was more 2022 or such like I think people some people are a bit too optim too opportunistic I think maybe they had some for from 21 and it sort of like start and then just come in and then the winter starts

or something like this and um we have people who sometimes tempted by trifire as well and it's true that 22 maybe ear 23 was actually quite busy in effect in Commodities it's like that's fine like there's a few people leaving but it's it's far from being theal like usually people stay and you know understand understand the cycles and I whatever this Pro GES to any side of the cycle to be honest it's it's a bit of a filter as well um and I'm with you that people want to have some passion or bind to the vision of the space at least in terms of either democratization or like be a bit like slny Libertarians whatever like you know they need to buy to the vision of the space at least they don't have to be as like crypto Believers as you know and

I where we're quite strongly I I went into crypto thinking that basically of crowdfunding that a bit failed I was really into crowdfunding this in 2012 in terms of democratizing investing and so on I thought that was TR interesting and that like you know it's so many roles around being a sophisticated investor and so especially in the US like if you try car funding in the US is just it's a bit of a it's it's not really CR funding you need 5 million on your bank account outside of your house to qualify to be able to to invest in so so uh I mean different I want to qualify I was just thinking about what I said before I want to qualify a little bit I think it's it's passionate or or at least very curious about it I think we've also had

people who worked out who were like I'm kind of skeptical about crypto but I'm also very interested in it and like I'm trying to understand it and like that that that I think is also so so I mean indifference is probably more the thing of like that that is like okay if people have feel like just a sense of indifference about it then then they didn't work yeah I been woring that that is probably it's probably my like to best um we've had people who depending on the roles we've had good success with people who actually came from TR F who are used to like too much structure to degree like work the banks or so and they were

frustrated of like not being able to do enough and and we've had good success with them because they you know some of them had traded crypto like PA also and um and know there's a balance because we actually we want people to understand regulation we understand people that I understand like not as like a like a good long-term framework um so sometimes people just purely Crypton native are not a good fit they don't understand how you know markets should work it's on how how it works long term but um yeah you need a balance and it's good if people have gone through you know both both Wells both you know both have some experience with GTO some experience with trile and I think I think it just ends up yielding

the best profiles we have pretty good experience hiring straight from University as well but for more technical roles you see but it's it's yes it's it depends on the roles so you mentioned uh building right and and I guess one of the things that that uh you know that you guys have been building that has uh you know has become pretty significant is our sync which is uh is it the I guess the largest Block B on E theorum or certainly one of the largest 25 is one of three large I think I think this it's one of the three largest certainly yeah I think it is 25% of rout building I I don't know the

latest numbers but I think you should know that better than me yeah well I know it's one of the largest I know exactly right now but um so why why did you guys decide to do that and what's sort of the the connection between the block Builder and the market making I think it's it's it's a good representation of the fact that we take first that we we very much build this fast and an analogy that that I like to use and you probably have me say this does but I'm not necess a fan of Google but like Google is is a good example that if you if you think of Google it's a tech firm it's a tech firm fast and they happen to make money from

advertising essentially and then um we want to be and and we are Tech fast and we happen to make money from Trading but essentially what we do day today is is is tech building so there's only he now there's about 10 people like like more like me who just more like externally facing and do the more commercial aspects of the business but most other the people are basically product buildings infrastructure building and so on um so ouring comes into play as as a subsidiary as such to to help with block building and it's just you know making sure that you know we we part of the block confirmations as such we are quite cautious of not being too vertically integrated so I think the good example of that is on um dx4 for

example we made sure that we actually we actually lend a lot of our tokens as well so we help other people to to uh to um confir transactions for example and we want to keep things you know we want to keep you things being a fair game so yeah while while having some control on on block building not to be you know completely squeezed out of Trad so so that it's part of the it's part it's part of yeah being very much part of the def system in general you need to you need to have some some infrastructure build to be able to participate in trading and so block building basically means right that it's an entity right that basically gets transactions either from the M pool or

that people directly send to this block Builder and then you know basically put it together in a block and then you know send that to you know Rel layers and validators and and the one that sort of has the highest monetary value that um implied that it's the one that goes in there and and sort of the the attractiveness here is for example um that you know you can sort of construct your own blocks and put in all of the Arbitrage all of the transactions the onchain transactions that you guys want to do and I guess you can also prevent being sandwiched in in that block is that sort of domain because because you guys would still would you

still submit transactions to other block Builders or like all of the winw transactions that you do that's a good question you need to ask one of my defa guys to get the the full answer but I'm I'm assuming I'm assuming we do because we we you know we we will still look if if another block Builder is a performing better the trading team can still independently just just push this to to to a Better Block Builder um like many in the space we used flash BS in the past and then and other so I'm sure um Works a bit like an option but it it needs to stay competitive enough to a degree there's enough competition inh house to make things more efficient um because if we don't keep

things efficient enough even if it's between different teams basically in house then some of the competition will take it away you know what I mean if we only favor our own blocks then it doesn't at some point it becomes inefficient it's a good question uh and I'm assuming yeah I'm assuming we use the block but it's true that in terms of Defending ourselves with against c c attacks you want to have some some control there as well so I'm curious also a bit about the your faults and sort of long-term Evolution both of crypto and of like what it means for a company like wi mute and and maybe like some of the topics I'm curious your opinion about you know one is you know

do you think that in the future you know sort of like most assets will be blockchain based and that's how markets work do you think that de centralized exchanges are going to overtake centralized exchanges and you know those will be the largest exchanges in Marketplace in the future or like how where do you see things going yeah so it's funny because I've had different answers to those questions over the years it's it's um one thing is I'm one of these guys who who's coaches with like you know people like Larry for example they're saying everything will be tokenized I think a lot of things will be tokenized but I think for some aspects like around our for example so

what I said like around sort of like toiz the stuff it's been tried before and and some of it if it doesn't bring a sufficient like factor of improvement it's it's quite difficult to to distribute and just to get to get adoption um so I think I think it will happen but it won't happen all at the same time there's a few things in the crypto space that I'm still really eager to see you like so I'm I'm in Asia now for six month because we trade derivatives from from Singapore from Singapore office and I think there's a big thing that's still not happening if you if you compare the crypto space with trfi there's still very very little volumes in options for example so essentially options in trfi trade about in 25% of the total volumes and in

crypto is like it's it's a tiny percentage it's just single very low single digits and and I think it there's a few few factors to explain that but I think it's just like with a bit more actually positively institutionalization of the space there will be there will be more people around the table and actually we get will'll get more derivatives that moderat has been more did a better better price Discovery down to the the the lane tokens down to the Bas spot token as well that's the second Trend so of like more dors more tralization for shop I think it was 25th of April 2022 I give talking Davos about D5 flipping C5 and I was quite happy to just go talk you such a memor you have such a memory for dates

whenever you were like mentioning date you're like exactly okay it was incorporated on the 5th of July 20 it's there used to be it's more as the TR this uh that's the the very few things I'm good at so just remembering people and remembering dates yeah I was it's funny because I was at this uh don't know I don't know I'm going to name the foundation because they invited me to speak that but at one inch had like a little booth and so on I had like pretty pretty pretty nice discussion there and we were just right next to WF and they were all you know WF guys that are um the risky all talk about all 90% of the money is Def is like criminal money and

B so rubbish we all know it's rubbish but uh but I was happy to talk about like potentially know what we needed for def5 to flip C5 and um it was interesting because there was like so so April 22 as I mentioned obviously we had FTX in November and then my first reaction when FTX went down was like oh people will realize that the fredd is because of centralization and that people would just go for def follow and so on the problem is that um I was talking about this with P at the time was that it's like um actually CI is very good for adoption very CI CI basically centralized exchanges regardless of you know risk of Fraud and centralization and so is very much data to on board they actually on board the

new users and when people get sufficiently familiar with the TCH and so on and get sufficiently incentivized to basically do custody themselves and essentially confident enough and like detect to actually send you know send funds on chain um then they really are part of def5 but at the time it was about so tr2 was about 400 million total users like across the crypto space and you had about 6 million 4 and a half whatever let's call it uh I think sorry it was 300 million total users in the crypto space and there was about 400 4 and a half million defi users per se and and now it's doubled across the board but I

see the percentage of Def users stays the same and it's a bit of like there's a bit of a failure to sort of like defy in the way that um we did have like good traction around def5 summer because there was like zero yield everywhere or negative yields in most of the places and basically def5 was able to to attract some users through through you know having some yeld but essentially there was a whole phase afterwards where well Tred fire actually geted up ended up getting yield again and um and I think the def5 space and essentially crypto was just bit struggling on the on the on the yield front so not not super attractive there um I think there's still a lot of things to solve in terms of ux UI getting L leverage and defi that's some sort of you know credit

scoring in in the meantime so a lot of people are building pretty cool things to help solve these things but I think we still end up with this sort of bottleneck from the for D5 to really flip CI is actually still quite challenging because if you see how people are on boarded into the crypto space C5 first and then but if if you think like you know 20 years or 10 like a longterm future so I think def5 will can can be more much more prevalent once you get um like once you get robots everywhere once you get like a proper internet of things because then whenever you're fridge buying your food automatically based on what you've eaten the day before and stuff your Frid is

not scared of like sending funds online well your fridge is not scared of doing the custody or stuff like probably does this this maybe you just have your house wallet or whatever you want to phrase it yeah it can have you can have your FID FID sandwich to the heating system exact disproportionate like hacking risk as well but um but I think it's like the machine to machine trade Al like this in 20 years time I think I think you're think it's spinning a little more but I think I think I think that's that's probably pushes D5 first um and it's surprisingly if you talk to institutions a lot of them are like there's a few even three years ago I had this um side chat chat house chat of um after panel

at a London conference and they were like traditional traditional finest you have like these guys who call like R custodians who hold other people's money and so like this top 10 out there whatever JP Morgan is one of them like B um there's a few Australians there as well and there's a few of these custodians who are completely ready to think of a world where defi is first but basically they want they want to be the wallet so they basically that think is like okay people can trade trade bilaterally everywhere but they want to be they want to secure the funds as same say so there's a feature there I don't know how much we have to pay them but um it's you know I think I think I think that can work the reality is just it's

not it's not happening yet it's not happening yet and maybe one more topic when it comes to sort of you know the future what about AI like what do you think is the impact of AI on like V mute very little in terms of pricing most of what we do is already pomate I think there's a really annoying aspect that I'm trying to get my head around um is on the commercial side is around risk of frud of people impersonating and so on it's more and more possible the tech is there for you to think that you could have had the podcast with me but you could have had the podcast with someone else sitting in you know from the 50 Cent Army and

actually just not using Jim not using you know using using some some uh some AI tool to basically replicate how I move how I speak and so on and thinking you have a commercial call and then um and uh convince you to send me money for like you know for a deal I well I I think the the obvious thing

uh is that I think it could just improve everyone's productivity by like maybe you know maybe 20% maybe 50% maybe 100% like by but by a lot but then I think to do that you know it's not like easy I don't think you would get that just from like using like chat GPT or something but you actually have to like integrated into how the entire organization works so that that is like a focus for us I think that is the sort of thing where it can become like something that's you know very compounding where okay maybe maybe this year will help us like 5% right but maybe next year it will be 20% Then maybe the year afterwards it will be like 50% then and and then I think these yeah these effects can just become

like massive over time AI is like for me AI is like so I used to invest in a businesses and more work too and you can sort of put them in like optimization automation or Discovery and like and then if you get so by the sound of it what you think is it's more optimization this stage is still like a 10 20% you know martial Improvement on your site but I I think if it just if you just get generally inside like if you get the discovery aspect of that that's actually quite useful what do you mean with Discovery yeah Discovery is like um think of an AI that can think of like you know Alpha go is probably an example of this like you

know explain completely differently or um I don't know if you if you apply eye to like biology and just finding like discovering like new treatments or so I think that will probably emerge right but I think the first thing is like can it like I mean for example one thing is like uh in terms of a sort of thing we would like to have so right now you know we run all this infrastructure for you know lots of different blockchains and then you know we have all these Engineers on call and then there you know systems to like alert and then something happens and there someone has to look at it and then like respond to it so like for example can you build a system that like knows how all of the

issues that have is and all the ways they've been resolved and if there is an alert it can like basically well autonomously resolve it or or maybe at least suggest to the engineer that comes up hey this is alert problem you should do this right um and then maybe they can check but maybe at some point it's not necessary to check you can just go ahead and do it so something like that is for example something we want yeah we want to build but it's not easy this it's going to take uh probably going to take two years or something what is it I think is 83 was neural networks 2006 was the B busman how do you call it busman machines or something and then um like it took a

really long I think a lot of of progress has been made in I just by like doing just playing around with an optimization curve I think people were quite surprised with this so how far we went and um don't know I I looked at this I played around with chpt and so on recently but it's names are quite interesting because essentially anything that deals with words used to be considered very very difficult like you could you could before you could build some trees you could build some things that actually just do like chat Bots you could build them like in a very narrow in a narrow sort of lexicon so nrow set of like very narrow context and now the fact that we can have LMS is quite quite interesting so don't know I think it's it's often

the thing of like we sort of over overestimate where we can get into two years and we are massively underestimate the changes that in 10 years time so we'll see we'll see we'll see where we are there I'm I'm just curious about the last maybe last thing so I understand like you know like a lot of languages and you learn a lot of languages I'm curious like how how do you learn languages and how do you maintain the languages that you learn I learn them fast and I maintain them very difficult those very difficult the to maintain them so I'm I'm I'm still maintaining about five and um when I don't work 247 I I I used to just have a just watch movies or read or trying to read a language or or

try to I love Singapore for like Asian languages because you can maintain Chinese I can maintain some Japanese I can learn Korean slowly with the limited time I have there's two to three big Dimensions there's something in learning that you call schemas it's sort of like the scaffoldings of like how you Le so essentially uh um let's say if you're French let's say this you have similar schemas to like Spanish and Italian and so on so basically like like same sort of framework and it's quite easy for you like to learn other Latin languages um but once you just like you're European and you learn Asia language like it takes a while to to get that if you've got good memory for new wise is

useful but there's still a dimension where even you understanding like rough grammar is not sufficient to really just you know like to to to put what and speak perfectly I think a good way to do things is just consider yourself a child and basically don't don't be fussed about making mistakes like I just half joke about torturing people like learning a new language but basically torturing people going to listen to you like basically you're G to make mistakes and so on and I think people are especially when you learn in your language as an adult people are too fussed about making mistakes and I think it's that's a big it's a good lesson for learning in general like the plus language is where when you learn a language you focus on one at a time or

do you sometimes learn multiple at the same time just one at a time usually one one at a time is much easier the thing is to get to a level where you should be able to have a a list of conversation or at least watch watch or read like Kiss kind of material or so like simple things because you want to be able to maintain it and you can only maintain it if you can have a mix of active and passive learning so Active Learning is really you literally like learning new words and S learning new sentences and practicing and passive is basically just you watch a you watch a K drama show also there are you know it's much more passive but at least what's Qui key is get your ears to hear

all the sounds and I found this so I found it difficult for like Korean for example like for Chinese is really difficult to get around all the tones I mean just the tones and they just just just generally get around that um many people use softones in Chinese as well so it's more like you just need to end up having to to learn you know to say like the same thing three different ways and I just make sure you can be understood then just by practicing and be be a bit Shameless about practicing and just uh um I think this is this is the biggest barriers for adults actually but in general it's just uh I find I find this fascinating in terms of language learning because it's usually like 50% of the language is about gives you gives

you good insights on the people's culture because this is what you know who speaks to who and how they articulate things and so it's quite just it's just a just a m that's just a gy exercise but was my my past time for a long time I don't know what's what's what's your favorite language or what that to ask very tricky questions well I mean I I in college I studied quite a bit of Chinese and then I spent some time in China to and it spoke pretty well at the time uh so this was a long time ago this was like 2006 so I was kind of you know I could have like a 2our dinner or someone and talk Talking Chinese and I could like you know uh and then did not use it at all

for and I really enjoyed learning Chinese uh I just found it fun like more fun than learning other languages and then I basically didn't practice at all and I forgot kind of everything until like when I was in a actually when I was in Singapore like in January I started studying again a little bit and so I've been studying you know every day for about you know seven six seven weeks uh and you know it's coming back kind of to some extent yes I think Chinese is the one I enjoyed learning the most in terms of studying the language what I found difficult for for Chinese and Japanese was that uh if you just really in it and you practice every

day you can get to really really good level just reading and writing as well but I find that the the spoken and so understanding people speaking and in the digal spoken level is is not too difficult to maintain because you can watch shows and stuff side but I found that maintaining reading like and and writing at a proper level gets very difficult with you know all the Hanzo all the Ki to maintain that's something that needs to be a lot more long more active on my side but yeah we reading I never managed to get to like I I never could get to the level where I could like read a newspaper or something and like understand a lot I can I can send you some some books can there's a book by someone called the

uh Richardson is like who basically he actually started with a Japanese book the the The Legend is that he was in the 70s in Japan and basically landed like all the 1914 whatever official Kenji uh list uh in N three month and he used like a Memory Palace kind of method so he would just deconstruct the root of the kji and basically just build around it and build a little story around it and uh it's just called remembering kji and actually there's a hanza a there's a Chinese uh equivalent that's been same same writer I think also Richardson I used this in 2009 or 10 or so it's all the positives and the downsides of Memory Palace and

when you build to story around remembering something it's kind of slow like but you'll actually remember it so it's kind of slow to recall like sign the whole story around oh there's a lad there's something there's a moon there's a sun there there's something and then you can rebuild the the kji or the hza um but it's it's it's kind of slow so it's it's useful and like a first kind of practice and then you kind of forget about the story and you just like it goes into the longterm memory and you just once you read it you just you just read the right sign as it is but if you have a bit of a barrier to remember them it's quite it's quite useful I'll send you the reference cool well thanks so much yo it's really fun to on really enjoyed our

conversation thank you same here same here thanks so much for listening for tuning in and we'll be back next week