Why Based Rollups Are Ethereum's Best Bet with Sam Battenally

Transcript

it's a bull market so like let's get excited about the Innovation here it's not the virtual machine that is going to limit the performance of a chain it's actually the the hot State what else is there to do before we kind of unchain the base roll of ecosystem and allow it to really Thrive the next 18 months are going to be excuse my French for [ __ ] wild I'm so excited welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at the roll up.co Ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners safe is moving the world's GDP onchain with the introduction of safe

net safe is taking this to the next step very soon check out n.s. Global to learn more about how safe is moving the world GDP on chain all right Devcon Thailand we rode here on grab bikes we took the uh base rollups we we didn't get stuck on mainnet look we were talking about with Anthony so got a got a fast start to this podcast embrace the Giga gas yeah Sam it's your first time on the rollup you are the CEO of Rise previously background in all sorts of different tech companies and software big big uh Computer Guy graduated from the Australian National University big Aussie um that's a deep cut ni you've

done your youve done background welcome in welcome in um yeah man how are you doing today thanks for having me on fellas it's uh it's it's hot here in Thailand you um dragged me out to some back alley and I thought I was going to get um Rob this was like the rollups big uh big capitalization on your growth to try and try and kidnap half of ethereum but um no no we came out all right this this like this spot's good yeah feeling good feeling good man the it's been a long time since the price a green price correlated with a conference yeah it's always oppos yeah it's like conferences have been bearish for like 18 months now but the vibe here has been it's like people are excited this is It's oh sorry it's yeah people are excited it's it's happening again yeah yeah yeah yeah I

mean we were just talking with C how the eth narrative has been so much infighting about l2s being parasitic and should should we scale the L1 and fragmentation and then like within like one 30% candle over 5 days it's like the ethereum is now back on on its like significant ly in the number two rank where it felt like it was losing some ground to salana or other l1s it's like now it's like yeah okay let's just put that to rest for a bit yeah yeah every all narratives are a good narrative in in the bull market so it's yeah things the bubble to the top quite quickly but I think that's that's one of ethereum's one of the things that ethereum really struggled with the past really 18 months is that we've kind of got this ecosystem of competitors that spend more time

arguing about like which has the best rollup stack or like the kind of infighting within the e ecosystem which whereas the is just like this unified front and I think that's with a a few big green candles that's going to change yeah and I also think like the tech side of of standards of chain abstraction of interrupt is getting there to kind of rebundle this unbundling of this modular expansion if you will of of ethereum and of just this broader ecosystem and one part of this is BAS rollups which I think we we ought to do a primer for what base rollups are uh before we jump in because I mean I think our our community is probably familiar but uh with regards to actually like the Key properties that Bas rollups bring what they are um and kind of why why they're

more ethereum aligned from an economic perspective than uh kind of single sequencer rollups I think it would be great to just understand your your perspective yeah rather than just uh digging into what a bass rollup is I might give I'll give the rundown of why why bass rollups are exciting so today in the landscape of ethereum you've we've kind of um evolved in this point where we have the these foms so um the arbitrum stack um optimism ecosystem then there's other shared sequences like as and espresso um and they all have they're like these these clusters but there's like big uh big walls between them where there's no no future plans for interrup or anything like that um so you you have new new rollups coming to

the market either be it app chains or Universal rollups that are looking at this landscape and trying to decide where to deploy their stack and the current status is you deploy a centralized sequencer uh and with the premise that you will eventually uh take get rid of the training wheels and and go decentralized because censorship resistance and liveliness is is super super important um so they're looking new rollups coming to the market and looking at this space trying to work out where are they going to invest their time and and you kind of have to pick winners um and like build these allegiances is a strong word but I think that's really where the based ecosystem offers a massive opportunity is that rather than uh offloading like value or um or like having to pick a winner

you've already picked ethereum ethereum is is already the best uh has the best and most decentralized validator Network in the world over a million validators so with the base uh with a base architecture you can actually leverage this ecosystem of validators to sequence your blocks for you um so just on on a standalone rollup basis that's that's awesome you you don't have to build another layer on top of ethereum you don't have to build your own consensus later you can use ethereum validators in the ethereum infrastructure uh and then from that point you then uh once more rollups come into the based ecosystem you don't have to we don't have to do BD to get other rollups to come in it just makes sense for them uh we we then get interoperability between all of these

rollups so I'm what I'm laying out here is kind of a future where the based sequencer is essentially the biggest sequencer in ethereum and that there is no vendor lock in it's completely credibly neutral anyone can participate but you also get the same great benefits you get from shared sequencing IE uh synchronous interrupt yeah so I think that uh I mean I I grasped this idea and I think our community is kind of getting to this idea of like base ropes being the next like the next Frontier of scaling ethereum for all this property and I think namely composability brings that level of you know if you have different base rups using a a similar pre confirmation service or the same one

you get this kind of really intrinsic interoperability between them and the L1 um but on the on the flip side of that and I recently put out this tweet kind of like picking on Tao a bit which was like I think it was like Tao paid almost 700 Grand to basically rent on uh to ethereum L1 over the last month um and the picking was like is ethereum alignment really worth it and so like without getting too deep into like Tao specific design like how do you how do you kind of conceptualize the mental model of like the costs of running a base rollup today before these kind of pre- comp services are out versus the like like like the benefits that you get yeah and I I know

the Tweet well and I uh I I think it's good to ask these questions to like be realistic about it I I want to make it very clear that Bas uh the benefits of Bas sequencing is an ethereum alignment that's just nice to have there's other core reasons why it makes sense and using the Tao use case um I think my comment to this tweet was something along the lines of they're not paying for ethereum alignment they're paying to be first uh so the what what I mean by that is that Tao's uh prioritized speed to Market and also security and as a result they haven't prioritized cost so there's I've like the team of Tao great team I spent a lot of time with bre last week really smart dude um but ultimately they've done a

kind of V1 implementation that is very inefficient um and and one of the cool things about the based EOS system is that the more more rollups that join it the cheaper it gets because you you get things like sharing blob um blob transactions and things like that um so how I how how I an analogy I like to think of of why B why I'm extremely bullish about Bas sequencing is uh is the best Partnerships um in business history are Partnerships that have uh a symbiotic relationship where the two parties just benefit from working with each other and a great example of this is the uh Bank bank americard it was a um a Visa like card that Bank of America issued back in

the day um when they just really struggled with adoption they couldn't get other Banks to participate so they change kind of changed the script and they they um shifted things up and created Visa but allowed all of the big Banks to get involved and participate and from there V Visa kind of just blew up to to what it is today and the reason that works is because there is a symbiotic relationship Banks benefit for issuing Vis Visa cards because they get all the interchange fees and then Visa obviously benefits from having more adoption of their networks um and that's really that analogy works really well for base sequencing is that ethereum benefits from uh base sequences using ethereum's validator set because it adds more value to the validators themselves and base sequences benefit but base

rollups benefit from the ecosystem because it's it's a unified ecosystem as more rollups come to the ecosystem the strong where the network effects are unlike these kind of um dampened Network effects we see with the fifs today so and and that leads to another thing that's really interesting about the based ecosystem is that all the teams are quite encouraging and and eager to help one another grow was still so early yeah like what there's a handful of teams right like six or seven maybe yeah yeah and I like we're all we're all pretty close we all like talk a bit of smack on Twitter like there's a little bit of rivalry I Know M team likes to talk a bit of trash but guy love that guy is unfiltered yeah yeah he's got the Yap but it feels like the it feels like

the arbitrum optimism early days it's like this like early you know just a couple teams building in the space uh it really feels like a rewind to like 2020 2021 yeah it's exciting and the fact that it is such a small community everyone knows everyone it feels like that those early days I'd even speak to like the early Phantom ecosystem or even like uh the um chain links ecosystem in the early days just like all like I I I anticipate similar growth and everyone kind of needs each other in the based ecosystem CU I mean the example from Tao like as more based rollups come online it'll become cheaper for those based rollups to share blob space and and kind of uh amortise that was the word I was

thinking about yeah amortise fees across each of those rollups thank you um but then there's also this idea of like uh so so so that's a a decrease in the net cost but then you have a net increase in net in the uh composability gains that you get as more base rollups come online and I think you know that is another uh I guess push back or contrast to the based thesis is right now you have you have these other rollup clusters that are centralized sequencers and what is what is the um and this is also part of the app chain thesis as well it's like what is the incentive for these rollups to go be based when they can earn potentially more from going on centralized sequencers um and and there is sort of this theoretical future

looking value once there is a critical mass of based rollups that has some composability benefits that you can't get from some of these other rollup clusters thinking about like that is going to be possible or or uh it'll it'll incentivize rollups uh beyond what is possible on centralized sequencers once we kind of reach that that critical mass of rollups um and so until we get there everyone kind of needs each other it doesn't make sense to be to be unfriendly or combative uh because as more come on it it lowers the net cost as well as increase the the benefit from composability yeah absolutely and it's it's really critical all of the teams that are working on now like they're they're putting in the the effort to get

to this point and it wouldn't be wouldn't be possible without the teams coming together actually Justin Drake played a big role in this he kind of kicked off this initiative back in in February and when people kind of just laughed at Bay sequencing is not really viable and over the months and months it's really progressed and the teams have now come together like we just spent a week in um changai yeah tell us about that yeah it was man it was awesome so Justin Drake and and a few others within the um like precom Circle organized this event um where there was a lot of the pre-com teams um few relay Builders um and and like Tao ourselves um uh spire and um puffer so like some of the some of the big Bas teams um all

came together and essentially just like listed out the biggest challenges in both pre- confirmations and Bas sequencing and each of us split up and like created teams to work on some of these projects so the project I worked on was an A A A open API specification for uh for pre-confirmation so broadly broadly pre-confirmation for L1 or L2 um and so the it was lubben eth gas and uh chainbound with bolt all coming together and and collaborating on a spec and and to Bolt's credit they had a really good starting point that we started from but we lit huddled in a hotel room with 15 other people like 15 people in this hotel room with a laptop on the on the computer and went through the spec line by line and

just like uh like Rift on the design choices and we came out the at the end of the day after three days of doing this we've got a spec uh that's relatively uh ready for for public comment um doing some some tweaks on some of the the details but ultimately this means that we're going to have an open pre-confirmation spec which the benefit of that is we don't get these siloed pre-confirmation protocols that they can they can essentially collaborate on on the the BD of validators so as validators adopt it it's pretty like seamless with what pre-confirmation providers they they benefit they use essentially so that adoption problem solved but it also means that relays and Builders just have to integrate with one standard they don't need to integrate with bolt then

um then eth gas then um Luben it's like all open and that was one of my biggest like push backs to M team on one of our live streams that we had and he took a big hot poop on my head but I mean at the end of the day I'm glad that that problem has is like been identified and now worked on I also saw that you put a thread out uh with regards to kind of like your key takeaways from the from the Bro R I'm I'm not sure if this in particular was one of them but could you maybe elaborate on those takeaways as well for for the community like what were the biggest takeaways from that week and um like the overall progress yeah so biggest takeaways were uh I don't want to be like too too positive given the candles are up

but it's totally right I think getting together with these teams and like having face t- face catch-ups and and trying to solve problems together the my takeaway was that like these teams are ready to work together and and build this out that's awesome um whereas in comparison if you came in just looking at Twitter it looks like we're all just like no one's working together it's all completely independent which it is to some degree so it's really important to have these kind of events um the other thing is there are some tough problems in the based ecosystem that are going to need to be solved like this shared blob space question of essentially amortizing costs while also enabling synchronous compon ability it's a really tough problem like um Ellie from espresso and and mo from polymer labs are we're

working on something called Circ and an open standard for synchronous composability and mon rollups generally but also base rollups in that in that category um so it's things like that that are still it's not super clear exactly what that's going to look like I'm confident that it's it's doable and we're going to have sychronous composability but exactly what that looks like when the trade-offs are are still being fleshed out yeah and I mean you guys are taking a big bet on the base roll of ecosystem because like we're saying it hasn't gotten to that point where it's a no-brainer yet so I mean kudos to you for kind of pioneering this this charge leading this charge um and you know you talked about pre-ms which are an important prerequisite to this becoming a reality um because ethereum right now has 12C slot times

and if we were to do Bas r right now they just wouldn't really feel fast enough to really like have any kind of usability resemblance to has 12C confirmations is like kind of useless absolute pre like prerequirement for it and so there's kind of these bottlenecks that are being put onto the base rollup ecosystem right now and we're starting to overcome those and so like as we kind of knock down these things like you said the shared blob space like these these uh these precs what else is there to do before in your in in Your Vision like what else is there to do before we kind of unchain the base rollup ecosystem and and allow to really Thrive I think the last like the it will happen in steps uh the first

thing that has to happen is a decent adoption of validators partici participating in pre-com protocols so we need of the order of 20 to 30% of validators to participate because how base Roll-Ups work is you essentially look at the the look ahead period and you need at least one slot uh one validator in the 32 block slot to be participating for uh base rollups to to sequence blocks in that Epoch essentially so the more validators that that come on board the um the cheaper it gets the more rollups you can support um you don't really want downtime you don't want like uh there to be five or six EPO where you can't sequence any blocks that's just not going to work for users so I think that's the biggest pillar

after that then it gets pretty you can get pretty creative so synchronous composability is where things once we have pre- comps we can experiment with synchronous composability the different different mechanisms different shared sequencing models um and also then the L1 L2 execution uh synchronous composability with execution um pre comps is very very very difficult um but could be huge this kind of idea that you anyone with assets on E could uh could interact with an L2 without ever their assets to the L2 right ESS stays on the L1 yeah and what what does that look like in practice like if there's a yield Farm or an LP that's like significant kinds of yield or like an Arbitrage

opportunity we could kind of run that from the L1 yeah look I you could you could definitely capitalize on arbitra Arbitrage between the chains I I know some M guys and their conclusion was it's likely to be just having that uh that Capital requirement of having capital on both chains is probably going to be fine but I think it's more for users that uh want to want to want to use ethereum and for it to feel like a single ecosystem so you're on ethereum and you're interacting with all these different rollups but it feels like you're in one wallet I think that's really where it's going to be and and you don't have to wait for like like this like one step two step three step it's just going to be one transaction you can look it up it'll be like you'll

have an exploded view of the different rollups that you touched within that like transaction stack yeah red Stone modular oracles are available on 50 plus chains trusted by over 100 clients and over 6 billion in total value secured visit redstone. Finance to find out more welcome aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for fra and fraxel the new L2 out of the fra ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal a modular L2 blockchain Bill five fracks with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling is based on the mandal BR set of

fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the FRX ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the frax stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this frax L2 joins the existing Suite of fra products including Frack Swap and fra lend you can see fra fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or main net into the fra main

net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fraxel ecosystem join today to get the best out of fraxel you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity So Okay so we've touched on quite a bit of the challenges but it's a bull market so like let's get excited about the Innovation here H rise is entering rise is pioneering this Giga gas concept where it's a new metric uh well it's not a new metric but it's a metric that is better representative compared to TPS uh you know you've got all these different rollup metrics but right now it seems like this this this amount of gas per second in throughput

is really basically enabling next onchain Innovation right and so Bas is pushing right now I think like 15 Mega gas per second which is the biggest of all rollups today um but to get to one giga gas is about 66 times what Bas is doing right now in terms of performance um so like yeah what is this Giga gas era and what kind of new Innovations for devs for users do you expect um yeah like welcome to the gigas era like like what's going on here yeah yeah man I think like the next 18 months are going to be excuse my French but [ __ ] wild I'm I'm so excited like where I think valal tweeted this a little while and

about the um S curve of innovation that that Innovation usually has a curve where it's slowly slowly then subtly and then and like kind of tapers off and I think we're really at the knuckle that it's about to really accelerate in performance we're going like at look how long it took us to go from uh like one transactions per second to where we're at at at uh like 15 Mega gas which is about like could be about a 100 transactions per second we're about to make a leap to 100,000 transactions per second in the next like 6 to 12 months in terms of ethereum Bradley or like a one roll up for a one rollup Shar State that's that's where we're headed and so I mentioned TPS and that's just because it's people understand TPS better but gas is just broadly a better metric for

measuring performance and the gigas error is kind of a way for the evm community to must behind a Target like I don't see like we we don't own the gigas like the gigas is everyone that's working towards this like wrath has put a lot of work into this we're using a lot of their code nether Bin's killing it as well working towards this and and we're a team really just we're passionate about this we know there's some really tough problems and we need like more teams working on this the better um but super excited for what what it unlocks it's and the the internet analogy gets overused right yeah um but it's a good one okay so if if you look at uh like 20 2005 era uh we had no idea that unlocking

bandwidth would lead to what we have today and this is like YouTube Instagram um grab even or or um Uber so that's that's really what I'm excited about that we we don't actually know I've got I've got some ideas of what's going to be going to be very successful the kind of applications are going to be awesome with with this kind of bandwidth that we're reaching but but I I'm more excited about like what people cook up with like if we're we're actually spending some time at devcom this week asking Builders is like what would you build when you have 100x the performance like what what comes to mind because that's people are going to get creative people are going to build some cool [ __ ] yeah so yeah so so um we were just talking to U Anthony about um Anthony Sano about what the ethereum data

availability capacity is right now in terms of blobs we're basically on we're like teetering on the edge of lob space currently in ethereum um so rise is is an is a based rollup uh that is that is using a parallelized evm which we can get get into as well as W for the for the uh basically Optimal Performance and then you have your rise DB which is also a a highly performing database I I'd like to touch on each of those from like the technical lens but just to have an understanding for your for your data throughput needs is is ethereum going to be able to device for that or are you guys going to have to look to use alt daas and either you know make a switch back or just stick to alt da um in the

immediate term to get this off the ground for the throughput that you need and then if so does that take away from any of the ethereum alignment or composability or sovereignty properties that you get by being based yeah look we we will absolutely need to use alternate day because uh ethereum doesn't have the bandwidth to support multiple Giga gas which is is where headed um so we will be using external da as for like that means less fees to ethereum um but like San I I fall into the camp of uh propagating the usage of eth is kind of is the goal it's it's not about revenues revenues bearish um less less a coin it's a store of value that's right

that's let's get this pet rock even even bigger okay um but yeah so the the focusing kind of like on a loss leading strategy of getting usage of ethereum in the ecosystem is really how I I see what we're doing there might be a world in the future where we come back and use ethereum da if that's the direction ethereum goes for just really optimizing da but there's a lot of teams working on this it's a tough Challenge and ethereum's got to make the decision whether or not they want to be da as a product in the future or they want to want to be money and and so are we are we anticipating that the da like blobs are going to get maxed out cuz they're they're only still 80 90% full right so the the thought process is that they'll get maxed out relatively quickly and

then I think they are now they're get maxed out yeah next week absolutely next week I re yeah like look at the it takes one green Kettle yeah get exactly like that's what I was saying with uh with son like this everyone was saying we have this over supply of block space but then we haven't even got any sort of speculative activity on L1 in what feels like forever gas has been under 10U like all it doesn't take much you know yeah it takes one application that brings in another you know 30,000 retail users to to play on a particular web 3 game or something like that then all of a sudden we've got no no blob space so yeah I I think the the gas fee markets are going to be my my take my um prediction there is that we're going to be in a uh price

discovery mode for the gas fee markets so how does that affect the pre-com services that are uh working with rise right and again I I want to touch on the evm and the DB but just real quick if we're talking about this volatile gas market in the future or at least a higher gas price for L1 I understand that the pre-com services they don't really doesn't really matter if it's very Vol or sorry it doesn't really matter if it's a steady rate regardless of the price because they're just trying to price the block space accurately but the volatility of the of the gas fees does kind of matter so how does that how does your how does this like more speculative activity or potential more usage of blob space affect pre- comps which then affects the base rollup ux

yeah so it's it's similar to how uh how gas is priced on uh on like Bas and and optimism today that there isn't a real time matching between the users the fee a user is paying and the current gas rate it's kind of this like you have a control Loop where the users's fee slowly increases as the gas price increases but the gas price on chain will always lead and so you have a margin there to cover that difference essentially so it's not like a user come like you have 100 transactions and they have to be a onetoone mapping to the cost of the on Trin cost it's more of a um an expected value over time so these these gateways that participate in in pre-confirmation gateways will be the the party that essentially runs the

sequencing for rollups they will have to solve this problem and work on that kind of um it's going to be a fair market they're going to work on what price they can specify to ensure that they cover their cost and make enough of profit got it so because they're because they're forward-looking in nature like the base R design in terms of needing to have a validator commit to sequencing the base R in the next block that property is enabled the forward looking actually makes the pricing harder okay uh because you you have less information because it's further away if you're pricing it for this current block um it's it's a little bit easier but we're actually less forward looking in the based ecosystem than the current centralized sequences because where the the intent

of where we're going is that we will be uh that the base ecosystem will be sequencing blocks at least once every Epoch um so like that's 32 blocks and right now I actually don't know the stats specifically on how frequently say bass um drops blobs down um but I suspect it's like a a similar if not less got it okay so rise has uh built a Innovative parallel evm I was Bull posting alt VMS on Twitter the other day and you didn't like it so give me give us the parallel evm bull thesis for Rise yeah yeah what's the tech behind that it's not that I I'll just talk to the old VMS I don't it's not that I don't like old VMS um I think ultimately it's it's good that people are innovating and

trying to come up with with VMS but I think we're at a point where it's not the virtual machine that is going to limit the performance of a chain it's actually the the hot state so at the end of the day the market decides what state is valuable and we've got to build systems to be able to synchronize to to sorry sequence and process those blocks that need that hot state um so yeah my my con my thinking there is that the VMS aren't all that important it's more about the adoption those VMS and then tooling and the infrastructure they have so that's why I was like I I was I gave a bit of push back to that tweet um but regarding our stack so we've like ran over it quickly we've got a parallel evm engine this is

an open fully open source parallel evm stack um rust based the intent is for this to Upstream into into W which we're pretty excited about um and then we're building a a new database um to tackle the state access problem because at a high level the two key bottlenecks right now now that da essentially you can use external da is no longer bottleneck the two bottlenecks are execution and state access so on the execution front that's where we've built a this parallel evm engine which we essentially split out the blocks and execute them in parallel uh this is this kind of tech was first introduced by abdos with well not first but they were the early pioneers of it um with block STM so we're doing something similar we've extended it to

kind of build out a dependency graph before the input and then we do something called lazy updates to make particular transactions more parallelizable I won't dig into the weeds too much there but ultimately it's it's looking like it's the fastest public parallel execution engine in the market um so you can run benchmarks and and play around with it any anytime you like um and then on the state access front so this is just how fast you can read and write from State whether it's sequential or or parallel um and that's required both for the execution stage and also when you're calculating the Merkle route to to wrap up the block and and build the header um so we're we're working we've actually we're working on a different tree structure uh a more performant tree structure I'm actually

of the opinion that l2s will gravit will will diverge from ethereum and will likely use different tree structures different databases the priorities in ethereum are very different to priorities are in L2 so I think it's better if the L2 does like accelerate and push the here and so you guys are using like a a veral tree design if I'm not mistaken no not not veral tree we're using versioned Merkel trees a versioned Merkle tree yeah yeah so we it's it's a slight adjustment on the the tree structure but it speed speeds things up quite a bit okay and so from my understanding the the state AIS and state bloat are the two biggest bottlenecks so those are two separate things yeah so State access is separate to State bloat State bloat is a massive

problem like it this is how fast the state grows and if you're doing 10 gas or like gas and it's the type of transactions that state for everyaction it's going to blow out really really quick so it's like we're we're working on execution State access the next Frontier is State bloat and working out how to push forward on on expiries and things like that and there's a there's an EF call called the roll call where they they're trying to push in this direction and trying to innovate in the all2 landscape but yeah we absolutely need a solve State load as well got it okay so then broadly Zoom out uh as we as we kind of wrap what does your ideal like EOS ecosystem of ethereum look like in terms of adoption like how do we rival salana how do we rival High TPS

l1s uh and really just build this ecosystem of abundant block space um what does that look like for you is there changes on the L1 is it base rollups is is it these these highly per performant databases is a combination wrath Etc like what does this look like to you I think where I don't I'm of the that we don't actually need uh too many changes on the L1 to make it happen a faster L1 with fast finality is very beneficial but I don't think it's absolutely mandatory I think all the pieces are ready at the moment that I'm I'm a big believer in the fat rollup thesis this this idea that we can run very very high performant rollups now even with very very high performant rollup we're never going to be able to

run a global computer that meets the demand of the globe so that's where uh the uh like modular thesis comes in so I I anticipate a future where we have a handful of very very high performant rollups that are essentially liquidity hubs for different verticals in the space and then you have app chains that are that that make sense to run on their own app chain that don't need very very strong composability just for simple interaction so things like like uh onchain strategies money Legos that kind of thing needs to share the state like you can't run a vault protocol on an app chain it's just not going to work but you could want to run a web three game that has interoperability with a chain that has like high liquidity so that's that's how I see things playing out kind

of this um you have like a long long tail in the sense of activity some very high high performance chains next to um longtail of of app chains uh and the the key that will unlock that and to for us to actually compete against um well not actually compet like do really well against salana is uh making it feel like a cohesive ecosystem so I think that the second unlock is solving the interoperability honestly we've got to like the the standards around RPC interfaces is just very hard to work with um so I think there's going to be some people have to be ambitious about breaking things to to make this work properly otherwise we're we're not going

to progress move fast break things launch base RS last thing what's the rise timeline currently yeah so we've got internal test net that's live um we're pretty stoked we hit 2 gigas on like sustained 2 gigas on our internal test net last week um we will have a public test net in the coming months um but right now if there's any builders that want to come play around test things out where where um we can let them in um we're going to be announcing oh by the time this releases we might have already announced it but we're announcing our Builder program it's it's called rice Club um so yeah we're we're really excited to on board Builders rice Club is essentially an incubator we're going to be onboarding Builders helping

them with investment helping them build out products like our team all comes from the application domain and our current tagline is we [ __ ] up so you don't have to we we know what it's like to make mistakes particularly in defi like I've I've been in a war w room when my protocol had a vulnerability of $50 million like I we we know we know what steps to make to to make good decisions so that they the builders in the program don't have to um but yeah helping them out we want to um help them investment get this product to Market lots of opportunities for launch Partners um and then net is uh sometime next year awesome well thanks Sam thanks so much for coming out into the uh the slums of T this is awesome thanks a lot Absolut

pleasure