Why Bandwidth is Still Undervalued in Crypto | Logan Jastremski

Transcript

I think the ethereum community is actually extremely brilliant I think the hard part that they're going against is they're trying to fight physics in my mind which I think is a losing battle where if you're prioritizing these stakers that only have a certain amount of compute capacity or have a certain amount of bandwidth capacity and the entire system is bottlenecked because you're designing the constraints about around these relatively limited actors within the system I just don't think that is the correct thing to optimize for let's face it building on crowded l1s or expensive l2s is just not going to unlock the next generation of applications super containers offers dedicated customizable app spaces

running on supra's 500 ktps layer one blockchain giving you complete control over gas tokens and fees get notified when super containers are ready for Builders at super.com containers this episode episod is brought to you by anoma the universal intent machine introducing a new era of applications where you define the outcomes you want to stay up to date with anoma you can follow them at x.com anoma or sign up for the newsletter at anoma doet special thanks to enoma for sponsoring today's episode all right everyone welcome back to Empire we've got uh Logan Logan is it

with a j or a y jsky just the American version the American version yeah uh Logan's been on the Pod before um I think people have probably heard the story but I just have a ridiculous amount of respect for Logan um we met when he was running around with a 30 pound backpack on his back uh trying to yeah still do that yeah trying to get jobs and recording podcasts and flying all over the place recording podcasts and uh didn't end up getting a job and so he did what any sane person does is he launched a fund um and bet on himself and uh it it it ended up working out and the reason it ended up working out is because he is incredibly intelligent and had a really unique thesis at the time which I think can be um categorized by uh you know B bandwidth and throughput

increases over time and compute increases over time and you should bet on the blockchains that are optimizing for this so I don't know I I always like chatting with you Logan and um yeah welcome back to Empire uh thank you so much Jano and really appreciate the kind of introduction it's it has been a long journey I think uh I'm just appreciative to be here and I think more so than anything uh maybe we touch upon this throughout the podcast is there's been a lot of things that often change within the industry and I I think you can actually make a lot of money about front running a lot of these narratives I think for friction lists and what I've tried to think about are the things that are not going to change um because those are a little bit more easier to reason

about I think that Jeff bezos's quote is saying like everybody asked me what what is going to change and I tell them what's not going to change is people want faster shipping and cheaper products and so I've kind of taken a little bit of that approach just to get a baseline of reality in the industry that is so crazy maybe we can actually start there I originally wanted to talk about breakpoint stuff but actually the best place to kick this off would be with that thesis so maybe just um tell me you know in an industry where everyone's talking about narratives and things are changing all the time like what maybe just expand on what you think won't change and like what is the core thesis that you have when it comes to the industry today I think we did probably too much homework in my opinion on uh just the

underlying infrastructure and I think this was mostly just because my time at Tesla and uh elon's kind of first principles approach to the industry I think the thing that we ultimately realize probably much quicker than others is to your point Jason is the industry is largely going to be at least from a scaling perspective on blockchains limited by two main factors which was overall throughput and then kind of on the computational side um how to increase compute over time and I think the industry at least initially was relatively conservative about what those requirements should really be uh should they be on Raspberry Pi's should

you uh be able to do um should you have larger bandwidth requirements in terms of going going from like kilobytes to ultimately like low megabytes and I think for us the thing that we just kind of uniquely bet on is these requirements over time are just going to steadily increase the first one that kind of pushed the boundaries on this was salana and still gets a lot of flack today uh there was a tweet as we were filming this with uh Snowden ultimately kind of poo pooing on sana's decentralization which I would disagree with with but ultimately just betting on the fact that over time for this

industry to really matter you're going to need a certain level of scale and you should bet on the underlying architectur that allow you to increase bandwidth and throughput bandwidth which is throughput over time and then also compute over time and then I think that has allowed us kind of to move up the stack to Applications is kind of where I think the industry is going and could also lead us into a lot of the conversations and takeaways from breakpoint and our reset recent Asia trip was about products the thing that I've been saying more recently is better products not better crypto products just like kind of like tongue and cheek but ultimately saying like for the industry to actually matter you actually have to just build better things that people want to use

like sure it's cool that it's uniquely on crypto rails like I love this industry I'm sure as you guys do too but at the end of the day like these are still products and they need to actually deliver a better product experience I think for Mass adoption So within High throughput blockchains the things that we've kind of been narrowing down on our strike zone is overall in the next five to 10 years we think uh trading volumes are going to like 100 x if not a thousand X over time uh and then Deen because I I think Deen and the decentralized physical infrastructure space actually makes better products um so long story short we've kind of been focusing a lot on the infrastructure side which is just figuring out that hey

you're going to need to increase bandwidth in compute you can kind of move those pieces around whether you're using igen da or Celestia da eth da or uh movement uh Eclipse whatever optimism name your L2 or you can integrate those in kind of a slana monad su type architecture but that physics has to happen and then what are the things that are going to be able to uniquely built on once you actually scale the underlying kind of core constraints interesting I I want to go into the products talk about breakpoint but before we do that um you guys have built a brand as being very convicted on salana I would say and being very early and very right and

making a good amount of money on salana is it do you guys make bets on other ecosystems too are you investing in other ecosystems or is the idea that look we we pick the right ecosystem and with salana now we're going up the product stack we're investing in products on salana or are you looking at other eco ecosystems that fit your thesis I think at the time when we started it was really only salana in our point of view that was High throughput um since then it has brought in you have the two spinouts from meta which areu and apos uh you have keone building out monad uh and then you have SE that ultimately kind of spun out of Robin Hood and all the Saga that happened

there and so I think for us our big underlying thesis is just build on infrastructure that actually scales and I I think we're opinionated in the point of view that I think the integrated approaches is probably the much cleaner approach um than kind of trying to modularize the stack uh we can probably get into that a little bit later but really focusing on just the infrastructure that Engineers application Engineers can focus on applications and not infra I think the underlying thing that really frustrated me when I first joined the industry and like seriously started taking a look in 2020 was talking with engineers and they would remove lines of code because gas

costs were too expensive and so they're trying to optimize code uh just so that their application would actually work at scale um So within the high throughput blockchains I do think it's probably going to be a parallel um or a power law in terms of like who gets majority of market share I think most people like to hold hands and say it's going to be a multi-chain world and that like everybody's going to win this kind of reminds me of wag me a little bit um so obviously salana today being the first having the most high uh robust ecosystem is probably in my mind still going to be one if not the dominant player in the highr put future but we're very open-minded to S we're very open-minded

to Aptos um to say and monad and even more in the future I think I view these all as engineering systems and they're selling kind of their ecosystem to developers so we track very closely how the developer ecosystem is coming um so we're open if there's anything that I've learned in this industry is don't be a maxi can you say more about integrated vers modular is this a do you think that this is the right approach from a product perspective or do you think that this is the right approach from is it more about uh you know value won't acrew in the right areas so it's not the modular stack is not as interesting from an Investor's point of

view the one thing that like even if you remove the tech stack one thing that I've really appreciated about blockchains more and more is just the value of like the shared state within them um and that generally the more that you fracture that state it's less of even like a technical challenge even though I love to nerd out on the little like Technical architectures and different debates there it's it's more so on the social aspects and I think we've started to see this over and over again like which L2 do you build on and there's another L2 and you kind of get the infrastructure fatigue I I kind of view the high througha and the integrated High througha chains as like when you decide to build on a sui or a salana of the

world you're opting into some shared set of standards and that's plugged into exchanges the wallets like everything just kind of naturally Works uh and that's because people by using that underlying chain or the integrated chain are saying I opt into the standard that I want to use and so even outside of a technology perspective the social aspect I think is very underappreciated and is only continuing to be highlighted as more and more kind of friction enters these different Landscapes because it is hard to either Bridge money from point A to point B or you just create new VC Investments on the infrastructure side to actually F fix those um fix those properties to

begin with but I think one thing that I really learned at Tesla is the best part is no part if you can delete something you should delete something and I I think blockchains more broadly like to invent new infrastructure things rightfully and wrongfully but if you can delete things you should and so to me it's just that integrated approaches are cleaner um I think it allows application Engineers to focus on applications and so that that is the thing that gets us excited actually getting adoption so what ends up happening obviously you like sui and Aptos and you mentioned manad and say and salon and stuff what ends up happening with this modular ecosystem in your view I don't think it dies I mean I I'm all for

experimentation um I am personally of the opinion that the integrated chains become more expressive over time uh things like token extensions on salana with the move programming language being more secure these kind of advancements kind of continue to push forward and so the main reasons that you ultimately hear for like modularity is like hey we need to capture more value or we ultimately uh want to customize the stack more I think those and this has kind of trended true over time is that the fragmentation that that

potentially introduces outweighs um the slightly less customization that you may get with kind of an integrated chain um but but you also get all the shared state that kind of cor um the shared State around that and so I don't know I I'm all for experimentation I don't think there's um necessarily we should stop doing that I think people should push the boundaries on what is possible I just don't think there's enough differentiation between Mo most of these things and I think this is why you kind of see some of the fatigue in the both the private and public markets Logan what do you think of there's a whole crop of companies

that have popped up trying to bring salana to ethereum or Bridge Salon with ethereum or bring the svm to to ethereum what you know a lot of different ways to describe it what do you think of this crop of companies I think it's a cool experiment um I we have not done any of those type of investment all right let me rephrase the question why why don't you like it what is what is not yeah what don't you like about it so the thing that we ultimately realized was that look you're going to have if you want to be fully decentralized the reason why throughput is generally a bottleneck is because blocks are certain amount of uh bandwidth if you can propagate larger blocks to the rest of the nodes in the

Quorum that's great but you have to phys Bally have faster internet connections um if you want to be decentralized and so what we if you only kind of have these like svms l2s and you're ultimately using uh ethereum for da you're still going to be a limited by ethereum da which is generally uh I think since the blobs I can't remember I haven't been following it super closely anymore it was like 375 megabytes uh which in the grand scheme of things is like less than like broadband like very slow Broadband type internet um and so you have to have both High compute and

high bandwidth and I generally think what you you see is like whether eclipse or movement if they want to use ethereum as settlement that's fine but they're actually not using it as like the full ethereum da because the ethereum da does not have enough throughput so they use something like a Celestia or they use something like an igen to offload the data through putut and this has kind of always been our point is that you can't obate the physics of these things you you have to do high compute somewhere you can move that from the L1 to the L2 or you can move the bandwidth from like an ethereum to a Celestia or an igen layer but they still have to happen and so that's why we've just been focused on what are the underlying Primitives that

are going to continue to need to scale and I think fired dancer is kind of demonstrating look you can go from kilobytes to megabytes to ultimately gigabytes uh and possibly Beyond um and so just being long the things that I think are going to continue to compound most people I think vastly underappreciate the high throughput blockchain still I think the timeline may be consensus that salana is going to win but I don't necessarily think that's reflected in people's personal backs um retail is generally ahead of the Curve I would say fund managers have still I think Zeta launched an L2 um uh

Ellipsis uh Ellipsis Labs which built Phoenix and then is uh recently launched Atlas is another L2 I'm curious what you think about these because it kind of it's Salon ecosystem and it's you know you know the whole thesis of salana but it also is this kind of fragmentation and modularization of salana so I'm curious how these two things come together in your head it I would say so I just did a podcast with Anatolia in Singapore was great and he was like look we're nowhere near this instate of salana architecture but in the instate I don't think l2s are necessarily going to be a reality and if you go to engineers and say hey we'll promise you this thing in the future just don't do what you're doing yet or don't build an L2 today but in the

future we can um you won't need it it's not a very compelling [ __ ] and so I understand why people want to experiment with layer twos today I think the unique differentiation or at least the layer twos that are very intellectually interesting to me is the ones that keep the state on the layer one so all um there's a bunch of different names for these the industry always kind of confuses me on these today I think they're um either like co-processors or Epal rollups actually just talked with a really interesting team this morning called magic block uh and they're building a kind of ephemeral rollup for gaming uh but that can kind of be

generalized over time and the the reason why I found them fascinating is because you can spin up these kind of extra compute if you will where you can have lower latency and um generally more transactions just because it's on a single computer uh and but that state does not actually live in that rollup it's settled um or that state actually lives on the layer one so instead of actually being fragmented like you have in generally the ethereum ecosystem where base has its own state arbitrum has its own State optimism has its own State all that state in this type of blockchain or an ephemeral rollup would

live on the layer one but you can do kind of really extreme amounts of compute or very fast latency if you wanted to but that state in the key difference here is it lives on the layer one so you still have the full decentralization of the layer one but if you need extra compute or you want to do lower latency you can and I I think these small differentiations right again like going back from the technical standpoint how they ultimately fit together in really matters um so I I think shortterm I I definitely get why people are experimenting with them I think if you do experiment them these ephemeral type rollups where that state actually lives

on the layer one but you can do more interesting things either more Compu or lower latency that to me is interesting because again it goes back to you're actually building a better product and you can still tap into that Global shared liquidity that salana has now started to build you can still be composable with all the other applications and you don't have to pick hey should I build on zeta's L2 or not to call them out or any other L2 that salana could potentially build it's all that logic and state is actually on the layer one there's this idea and I've heard a couple people of kyani and others say there may be a network High throughput um

blockchain that may be a 2X Improvement to salana but it's not going to be a 10x and because of that salana has established itself and has a you know first mover advantage in high througho chains and has that moat would you agree with that and how much of that is actually defensible I would I mean you look at the difference between ethereum and salana and it's Pro probably still fed today because it was actually the first blockchain that did not just copy imp pasta the VM it structurally made different changes it decided to instead of running on Raspberry pies we may run

on a 3,000 or $5,000 server instead of doing kind of low megabytes we're going to hook this up to gigabytes and really push the throughput limits um and that would resulted from the product experience in a very meaningful differentiation I would argue it was much greater than a 10x probably more than a 100 a difference um in just general performance and I think generally that will kind of expand over time and the new chains as much as I find them very intellectually stimulating the goal in my mind with all the high throughput chains is that you write the software so when you go from one megabyte to say 10 megabytes and when you up the core counts you

naturally have linear scaling so that you can just D you can continue to increase those uh kind of raw requirements over time and once you do that it's not that you're done but there's like very like minor things that I think we talked about in the last podcast where it's like all right how do you do parallel processing is it deterministic is this optimistic um the new thing I think now is like how do you do the different consensus algorithms uh what is the final finality do you have one leader do you have multileaders and I think these things are very intellectually interesting and can do a entire podcast about the differences between those but it's not

as clear at least on the surface level that these are even a 2X better than aana and so I I mean I talk with the the different High throughput teams quite a bit and I I think the goal and one of their hardships has been how do you uniquely differentiate yourself from a salana of the world if it's harder to demonstrate that it's not a 2X better or if it is like how do you clearly lay out that out so everybody understands that um from ethereum to Solano is very evident yeah I really like the episode you recorded with the mega eth founder because most of the time I hear Builders particular of l1's or l2s just go out and saying trying to King King make and

say we are the best categorically the best and everyone claims to have the highest TPS or whatever you know and so it's um almost impossible to believe um by definition uh you have to make a trade-off um we can talk about what those trade-offs are but he was the first person to just very intellectually honest just say we've made a very explicit trade-off and I when I first heard that pitch they said we're going to run a centralized sequence for this how we this is how we think we can get the most out of ethereum and you don't hear many Founders um in the space like talk about that I guess toy is one where he's always stuck to his vision now stck on the blockchain and you hear him time and time again say that um and I think that is a perhaps a

way of differentiating and explicitly saying what perhaps the use case is um but I'm curious like when you hear these Founders like um not to go too much into detail of um you know the different tradeoffs of these chains but like when you when you maybe double clicking on if it's not a greater than 2x how much and might there be applications that are perhaps best suited in salana you're should seeing deep in payments really you know take shape there but do you think there's an opportunity for um change to specialize and if so um what might those use cases be because of a particular trade-off that they've made I I think that's kind of why I bias at least in my podcast talking with a

little bit more of the engine because I found that the engineers think very hard about the limitations of their systems and what design decisions that they're trying to make because they have to explicitly write that in code where the the non-engineers the more Beauty folk they're great to talk to they'll hype you up but they'll to your point Santi tell you that you have infinite TPS which I've found uh just not true but the mey team is doing something interesting and I appreciate their opinionated point point of view I think on the other high through put chains I don't know it's hard um I I what I have kind of come to appreciate is

that application Engineers want their blockchains and their applications to be use uh and that is why everybody was on ethereum layer one it's where all the wealth effects were it was where all people were trading it was where all the magic was kind of happening and as you kind of push all that traffic to layer 2os it's not bad per se it's just that social coordination are we going on optimism arbitr uh eclipse or whatever like there's just more overhead to determining hey where am I going to go and so I think as more and more applications kind of coales on the salonic ecosystem you see uh Now new

applications like Dawn or Adrina uh helium like hi mapper these things I think will start to compound as well where if more people kind of build here and more users start to collocate here that that actually to me is the thing that's going to be hard to overcome um I don't know I I think it's not going to be a win or take all it will be a win or take most where uh you'll probably have a couple High through put chains um I think what Keon and the modad team also the SE team are doing is fair really interesting and trying to kind of modernize the ethereum virtual machine um make that high through put we'll see

what happens there but again it's it is a little bit of a harder cell because how do you uniquely differentiate yourself um yeah at this point uh people should go definitely listen to your podcast I think you are the person that can Bridge these two worlds Tech what's the what's the podcast called you want to just plug it it's it's just my name Logan grimsky I should probably Rebrand it because grimsky is hard to spell but uh perhaps we can post it in the show notes that's how you know it's a good podcast when you haven't spent any time on marketing we've been slowly grinding over the the bare Market yeah you I I call you the compiler of the space because you can translate what is very

technical audience with um you know just making it more digestible and easy to understand without necessarily compromising the essence uh and uh without so at this point you've spent you've talked numerous times to a lot of these Builders you you again you spend a lot of time in Asia talking to them you're also a breakpoint uh I'd like to transition maybe the conversation over to that um just what were the highlights of those discussions anything relevant that came out and and then maybe talking a little bit about fire dancer because I think that's you know all eyes were on fire dancer and I'm just kind of curious to get your take on that specifically as well yeah I mean to me breakpoint is always a very fun

conference this I've actually been to everyone now um so it's kind of been interesting the high highs and the low lows uh definitely got extremely spoiled in the first one as I think it was not representative of reality kind of markco marking the Pico top in 2021 where salana went from 20 cents to $260 or whatever um I think FTX had some jet skis in the pool at that time it was a little crazy but the progression of the different breakpoint events has been really interesting because obviously in 2022 that shortly thereafter you had the FTX collapse 2023 it was a little bit somber everybody it was just like core

Builders uh really there uh if you stuck around post FTX and were one of the so-called 75 devs you really believed in the ecosystem and to me the mark of this last breakpoint was really kind of a celebration of the trials and tribulations it didn't feel overly enthusiastic and it didn't feel like this was a deep bear Market it was just kind of people are there and they want to build products and to me that was probably the most refreshing and best one yet just because the industry salana specifically has gone through these really hard periods in its life and now it's kind of come out stronger where people that you the

underlying uh software is nowhere in near perfect there's still a lot of bugs and Kinks as Burton probably totally would tell you but it's gotten to a point now where application Engineers can focus on applications and so I think the reason why there were so many talks on different apps is because that underlying kind of thesis of frictionless of hey once these things actually you you get sufficient uh throughput you get sufficient compute you can move up the stack and I think that's where a lot of like the smart VCS are now going is it's not as much focused on infrastructure anymore it's what applications can you uniquely build that are just strictly better products

um so to me that was just like a real treat of the industry um just having everybody talk about their products and being able to U kind of showcase at that breakpoint it was was a rather cool trip yeah well about fire dancer for people that might have missed it um of course all the videos are online people can go watch them at whatever 2X or 75 or .5 speed but what is your impression of high dancer and perhaps uh yeah just some takeaways from that I I think if Mega eth is The Logical Cent uh kind of like endstate of l2s maybe fire dancers The Logical inate of like fully decentralized High

throughput blockchains um we again maybe like wrapping it back to like the starting point you had Bitcoin which did extremely low throughput but didn't have the ability to do smart contracts ethereum kind of innovated on that with the ability to do smart contracts and turning completeness but it was still took a lot of the kind of like um ideologies of Bitcoin especially around kind of a low throughput and low Hardware requirements um and so when you go from ultim kilobytes of throughput per second uh and you go from megabytes there's a th000 kilobytes in one megabyte and there's a th000 megabytes and one gigabyte there's a th gigabytes and one

terabyte so anytime you make one of these jumps it's a dramatic increase in performance it's it's not small um Solano was the first probably to go from the kilobytes to megabytes and fire dancer to me at least on the surface looks like it's going to be the first client that will actually allow you to go from megabytes to gigabytes and that's just a dramatically it's a massive increase in kind of performance and so it's been cool to kind of see what will the end state of these blockchains look like and I kind of think it will resemble more of like almost highfrequency trading um because what teams like jump ultimately do and why I think they have a lot of

unique uh expertise in kind of building these high throughput blockchains is because when you're doing High fre quency trading you're ingesting tens to hundreds of gigabytes of throughput per second uh trying to make a decision on all that data and then uh trading on that data and I kind of think that's where what blockchains are going to look like in the instate which is why I think they're so well uniquely suited to build something like fire dancer that will ultimately take us from megabytes to gigabytes um and so I they kind of did like a test teaser um where they said Franken dancer which was like a certain amount of like the fire

dancer modules were live uh actually in production today um and then I think the next day they had another talk saying that actually the full fired dancer client uh is also live on tnut and so they're making good progress uh they caveat it saying like hey we still need to do more testing but we can actually demonstrate that thing can be and was live in production um and so I'm excited about that I I think at the end of the day what it will result in is similar to what happened when you go from bandwidth to kind of gigabytes or Fiber Optic internet where look you you could build YouTube type applications once you went

from dial up to broadband if you do kind of another THX that allows you to do 4K gaming on someone else's server that you can stream to yourself in ultra low latency and so I think with any of this it always takes time for engineers to experiment what they can do in this new Sandbox um but I I think just now people are starting to experiment even with like Sal's more high throughput this uh obviously every time you experiment and kind of push up to the limits some things breaks and then you have to fix that and I honestly uh going back to how can the other highr chains kind of differentiate themselves to me in my

mind it's slina being it almost has the success that ethereum has where you have to fix things as the plane is flying there's a good amount of tvl a good amount of applications If These Chains can see hey salana potentially run into this networking issue or we should learn from certain aspects there and apply those that could be a unique Advantage um but I'm just excited to see what application Engineers ultimately build because I really do think as the the underlying infrastructure continues to compound you'll just see more more interesting applications start to be built and applications and products at scale and I think that's the big thing that the industry really needs to take

us to the next step yeah putting your investor hat on how do you think about and you alluded to it earlier of your excitement and applications what um you you talk about deep in perhaps others but um how quickly does I appreciate tested but but how quickly might we might Builders appreciate and then users appreciate the benefits of the um improvements with fire dancer and perhaps give us a tease of the applications that you think are just kind of now uniquely enabled with this huge upgrade um I I think it will probably take some time I was a little surprised by how long it took for people to experiment with more high throughput

this of like a SLO of the world what you saw initially is kind of like all the evm Clones that were just rebuilt in the svm um partly because like anytime you have a new ecos system you kind of need the core building blocks the borrow lens the amm the nft marketplaces for like people to start speculating and just get get the ecosystem off the ground so I wouldn't say like overnight we'll see like explicitly new applications unless some engineer comes in and just like full really uh starts pushing things but I think I'm uniquely just excited about what can you actually do when like

you expand trading volumes from I'd say like a billion dollars today to 100 billion a day or a 100 trillion or not a 100 trillion like one trillion um I I I generally just think people because they're so focused on the the narratives and moving from like hot ball to hot ball underappreciate some of the things that just will generally continue to work and like actually potentially work better long term and so we're very interested in the idea of how can you actually make these decentralized Finance competitive or even better than the centralized Counterpoint um the thing that originally got me excited about the industry with ethereum was kind of banking the unbanked uh the people that didn't have access to bank

accounts uh in emerging markets and unfortunately just because the infrastructure and the fees associated with it that didn't pan out but I think you can actually do that with high throughput blockchains you can have them uh get basic financial services but you can also allow them to like build wealth uh whether um that's speculating with mcoins or hopefully uh tokenized equities in the future uh to me those things get me pretty excited and then also just more and more of these like decentralized physical infrastructure networks I don't think those are uniquely some of them actually may require more compute but I don't know if

those uniquely require high throughput in terms of like hey we need like financial information and we need it now but if more and more start to co last on salana um or other high througha blockchains then I I think you just go the user mode and that's where it comes back to in my mind um the shared State aspect uh people underappreciate the shared stateness absolutely anyone that's been in finance appreciates I mean there was a time in history where people just Tred to build closer and closer to the exchange because they had an information Advantage because they would just get the information faster exactly um yeah for me tokenized equities like it's GNA happen and I think you're already starting to see

teasers of banks appreciating like moving in the oh T plus1 instead of T plus3 which feels like you know you're going from yeah very rudimentary to somewhat less rudimentary but we know that there's a better way to do that tokenizing equities um on the deepend angle I totally agree with you on the modes you know once you you know from a user onboarding stpoint just feels so obvious that like if you start you know the next 100 million users probally come from a deepin service that is very compelling and then once they're using helium then it it's an incentive to you know then understand how the wallet works and then once they have the wallet then very quickly they can discover other deep in applications so you not not only get mobile um but you can get you know know

Home wireless and you can get uh you know earn different types of income streams and you know pay for other plans and so it just becomes a very uh sticky product as a category for salana and you my opinion you you're seeing the best Founders and teams quickly realize that salana is the place where just more activi is happening and so you know you're just going to go and build there you know why would why would you bother building another chain you have your money there you can borrow against that you can interact with your favorite applications like at that point it becomes more like of a black hole and to me that's that's the really interesting part is where you actually start getting these applications where they're they're

building there because the users are there and I I think ethereum did have that it just what got unfortunate when you paid $50 or $500 for gas fees it just wasn't economical for the vast majority of the world now if you can increase kind of overall throughput if you can continue to scale the hardware so that you get more computation the goal is to create to make sure that you can continue to scale and support all these applications while simultaneously keeping these gas costs where they're negligible and I think that's the magic hey everyone Jason here I wanted to talk about something that's been on my mind a lot recently and that is where are all of crypto's killer apps we often

ask this question on the show so I'm excited to tell you about Empire latest partner anoma the universal intent machine intents are a new way to build daps enabling users to say what they want without needing to specify how it's done let's say you have an nft on one chain but you want to swap it for a token on another chain to make things even worse you also don't know which bridge to trust or how to navigate different dexes on each chain disaster right but here's the good news thanks to intense you can just tell the app what you want to do and a noma's solver Network takes care of all the complexity in the background we're excited to see what cool daps anoma's architecture will unlock to stay up to date with anoma you can follow them at x.com anoma or sign

up for the newsletter at ana. net special thanks to anoma for sponsoring today's episode let's face it building on crowded l1s or expensive l2s is just not going to unlock the next generation of applications in crypto that's where super containers come in offering a completely new solution solution that transforms your development control imagine dedicated customizable app spaces running on supra's 500 ktps layer one blockchain you get complete control over gas tokens and fees with the freedom to use your own token create local fee markets or even go gasless scale on demand and build with better customization than app chains all at a fraction of the cost plus with multi-m

compatibility you can easily deploy your evm move and svm smart contracts it's time to rescue your projects from the costs complexities and fragmentation of traditional Solutions get notified when super containers are ready for Builders at super.com containers two questions but I'll start with first what surprised you the most uh or what has surprised you the most in these as you have examined under the hood more closely these high throughput chains or even ethereum like what has been the thing that has surprised you the most in this journey I think I mean the last like eight months has surprised me a lot I mean it it's it's one thing to like say that you

think hrut blockchains are going to win but then it like starts to happen and you're like wow maybe I'm not crazy because you you feel crazy for a long time crazy I know you well enough you feel crazy for a long time when you kind of go against the grain um and that is not easy I think it's something that I've just kind of had to uh come to uh come into my own skin with but I I I think that ethereum Community is actually extremely brilliant I think the hard part that they're going against is kind of the discussions that are happening now on the timeline is do we prioritize the solo stakers and at the end of this at the end of the day to me

it comes back to that question of physics um they're trying to fight physics in my mind which I think is losing battle where if you're prioritizing these stakers that only have a certain amount of compute capacity or have a certain amount of bandwidth capacity and the entire system is bottlenecked because you're designing the constraints about around these relatively limited actors within the system I just don't think that is the correct thing to optimize for it's not to say it's wrong I just I think if you truly want scale if you truly want products that can hit web two type scale the solo Staker is going to be hard to um I would say keep around long term if

you want Mass adoption there's different ways to kind of get the benefits of solo stakers maybe you do something like Celestia pioneered with data availability sampling I think that's very novel um but I think on that point anyone can like validate uh very easily yeah you you can validate the header of the blocks and enough of uh the data available sampling clients uh can essentially flag that a invalid State change has happened if if you need so um and so there's I would say as this as the entire blockchain industry is continuing to mature I think we're just finding out better ways to do things and

I think even with me like you you want to be told my my point of view is that you're wrong and you should be less wrong over time um and I think the ethereum community rightfully innovated on a lot uh they were one of the early uh networks to proof of stake they were the first blockchain to enable turning completeness to enable Smart contracts but they are unrelenting and changing their mind about this solar Staker and maybe they're right um but I think that is the thing that is today holding them back to actually more mass ad option and why they'll probably lose to High

throughput blockchains um because they are explicitly focused on these solo stickers say you wave a wand and you can change that what um there's a lot of things that ethereum can change uh like sort of backwards compatibility issues or you know uh and then so it gives rise to potentially some like mon ad uh to kind of from the noo like from scratch like just improve the evm but ethereum can't necessarily do that so you have to work within certain constraints but what could if if you're in a position to change uh like perhaps a solo taker but like what specifically would you change and how do you think that would manifest uh

Downstream I'm a big fan of uh what Mac Resnik has been pushing uh where it's kind of multi-leader uh make it so that the solo scker can be run on like the last two generations of like modern Computing which is like say MacBook uh you you would actually get a lot more out of ethereum if you could just do those things uh the multi leer I think is probably a separate conversation but very intellectually interesting that I think most blockchains will have in the future um it's just kind of keeping Pace with Modern Hardware requirements it's kind of what salana has said like compute generally over time will get better you'll go from two cores to four

cores to eight cores to 16 cores and that will just generally get faster and better over time and then generally your internet speeds will get better over time you'll go from one megabyte to 10 megabytes to 100 megabytes to one gigabyte to 10 gigabytes uh it's just kind of the progression of Technology um so the hard part for the ethereum community in my mind is it's kind of stuck in a rock in a hard place because it's almost trying to be competitive with Bitcoin and like the moneyness and I think generally Bitcoin has kind of won that and then it's also trying to compete on the smart contract application standpoint and generally it's not as high throughput or low latency as a high throughput blockchain

and so I think making sure you you know what game you're playing and Santi and I had a long podcast talking about making sure you know what what game you're playing and how to actually win that game I think is very important and I think somewhere along the line ethereum just got distracted by trying to have two priorities which was money and smart contract platforms and I think that lack of focus has really kind of put ethereum in a spot today where it's perhaps slightly worse money than Bitcoin and slightly worse smart contracts than the highr put blockchains yeah and you know is I guess how much

probability would you ascribe to this change happen happening in ethereum you know yeah I mean it's it's it's hard right I mean you could I think imagine like you know as product gets decentralized and there's different contingents within the ethereum ecosystems like it's quite hard to coordinate that um pretty which makes it even all the more impressive to your point that they were able to transition to proof of stake and Implement EIP 1559 I mean that as a whole to your point like the airplanes flying and making these transitions might be one of the greatest most Herculean like human coordination events ever it's just pretty impressive body presents challenges from from like implementing these changes I mean it is to me it sounds like ideology is taking

precedence over practicality yeah and and that's the hard part it it's it's not that there are many many many brilliant people in the ethereum community there's a lot of dollars that have gone into making ethereum a better ecosystem and to advance ethereum I it's it's not a it's not dollars it's not the people it's the desire to change um and that is actually the thing that I think is holding them back and it is in my mind an ideology thing and again if if you want to say hey we're prioritizing solo STI that is our bread and butter that's fine I just

don't think you're going to have the market cap that you want long term and I think more than more than uh kind of ideology a lot of people just want to make money and so if you're not constantly pushing at the Forefront I just don't think you're you're going to you're going to lose market share in I would say that areas that you don't so maybe Logan just rounding out the discussion on solo sakers I'm curious um what reasonable argument the do the hardcore let's call them hardcore ethereum stick to because L I believe that when you look at what actually happens is that very there very few solo like there's there's a natural tendency for centralization uh and like

people delegate right and so is there a compelling argument that you might give Credence to like okay this actually would be a reason why you would want to preserve that feature um I mean I think generally people incorrectly State the amount of ethereum nodes to begin with the big thing that matters in my mind is the full nodes right and any a given day I think ethereum has between like 4500 and 8,500 full nodes so that actually have a copy of the Leisure um generally people incorrectly state that it's like Millions salana is about 3,000 is today or last I recall thenu apos hover around

a 100 or so I I think monad andu are kind of in that range as well of 100 full not full noes the the argument to be made is hey if these are truly decentralized systems if you run uh if it costs a node three 3,000 or 5,000 maybe the average person can not actually afford to run a one of those nodes and so we're going to purposely limit uh the hardware requirements or the physical internet connections the bandwidth requirements because we want more and more people to participate and I've always found that Noble and like I

think again like if you opinionated in your design Choice that's fine I I just don't think that is ultimately going to scale as hard as the systems that lean more into increased Hardware requirements um the argument though that I've always kind of pushed is hey theoretically if you have $5,000 of Hardware requirements in a certain amount of band speeds if the true limiting factor for people to run a node is that they is costs if you reduce that um the cost by 10x uh to $500 then you my my assumption would be you see 10x number of the nodes join the system

because now you reduce the cost by 10x but when in ethereum and specifically sana's case like that's not true like ethereum does not have 10x the amount of full nodes that salana does and Solana's node costs are 10x more than ethereum um and so that's just the hardware though not the bandwidth that's just the hardware um the bandwidth costs I think right now are not a bunch but over time there'll be more and more um and probably one of the most costly aspects um of these blockchains but you could you could imagine bandwith and I think I've I credit you for this realization that I had bandwidth is over the next 10 years

probably a bigger cost item than the hard bandwidth is going to when you actually crank these systems to like their full capacities bandwidth actually gets very expensive uh so you you'll probably locate the nodes in areas of the world that have lesser bandwidth costs um that that will probably take some time to play out but when you're doing like tens of gigabytes per second of throughput you're gonna you're G to look for ways to reduce your bandwidth costs And So It ultimately I I think the argument is sound it's just you you are explicitly making the choice to prioritize one certain group of people over in my opinion kind of the broader masses that actually want scale

and that's a fine decision to make again I think that's going to be reflected in your market cap long term if you're not actually trying to do scale you're you're going after a much smaller Market segment um and that is okay but I just don't know if the ethereum community wants to sacrifice their market cap for this ideology ology um we'll see feels very um uh Limited in their thinking whereas maybe may be rooted in this re you know we keep referencing the scalability trilemma and we think of it as a kind of like binary tradeoffs and whereas in reality and this was my core argument in the discussion with I had with a vichel

and you know all credit actually mer for this when he actually said that the trilemma is actually we should we should reconsider it um because after a certain degree of C after a certain degree of security and threshold of decentralization and we could argue all day long what that means but the key is if people are willing to join the network and build on top of it then that's probably your proof y then after a certain threshold of those two parameters then the most important thing is throughput because then that if you have really high throughput that means you have more applications more obligations more fees more me uh emphasis on non-toxic me which needs to be fixed then that really that is the flywheel that keeps this going right because that is you got to look at the

unit economics of the validator and if broadband's going to continue to increase then you know you're going to have to make that up with Topline and that ultimately is if more applications get build more demand for Block space then they can make more fees and then recoup the cost faster and it becomes a profitable like you know business to run if you if you think of it as a business which it is it's it's very profitable business yeah if you if you have a validator with stake you you can make quite a bit of money yeah and people and if you're this is the last thing I'll say in this in this part of the segment is when you hear you know the Maxis say but salana is subsidizing it and you know like all this stuff which is you know I don't want get but you know I'll just

acknowledge it and preempt it because it's not true Logan Logan if you were vitalic today or you were a crowned CEO of ethereum and given two years to fix ethereum do you um like a do you think that it's fixable at this point and B like what what would you do they're in a hard spot they are in a hard spot um because if you say hey I want to compete on the blockchain kind of smart contract War I mean it's not only just increasing throughput and adding more cores it's also all the other service providers in the stack um when you go from low througha to high

througha you need faster oracles you need fast faster um um you need kind of like what Mt is doing with uh better rpcs there there's a variety of things that well that's not but don't don't you have like you have infura and Alchemy and quick node you have uh you know P like pith is doing a great job with on the Oracle side maybe if ethereum CH made some changes pith could do more in ethereum like I'm I'm just highlight in that like even if you say hey we want to start doing Hupa we want to start doing paralyzation there are also many like other factors that I think are hard to do um and so maybe it is best for ethereum to just continue to prioritize

the solo stakers and say hey we're trying to focus on just being the quote unquote most decentralize uh continue to broaden uh more full nodes on the network and of going from like the 4,500 to 8,500 what if you went to 20,000 or 50,000 uh and just really trying to push that extreme because it doesn't seem to me on the surface today that even if they wanted to hard pivot it would be very hard in my mind to continue to catch up to the high throughput chain just because I think they already have such a massive head start and the lack of tech Deb um I I don't it's it's a hard decision they're a rock in a hard

place does that make you more excited about monad than ethereum yes nice okay but is that just because you're an investor in modad Logan like like like if you were I I noticed you didn't mention like bear chain so there's like three hot things right now for the new Chains It's like be chain monad and mega eth I would say um I'm curious like we're not investors in any of this full disclosure investor in all three ladies and gent sit down Santi sit down I'll I'll get out now yeah just just go home um I am home Logan are you I have the power to boot you out of this uh Logan are you guys an investor in moned no oh you're not oh interesting okay never mind I take back that I mean

we're we're very close with the Monet team I think I I like what they're doing from a technology standpoint I think if you go if you could go back in time uh I think ethereum would look much more like monad than it does what it currently looks like today you it would kind of be a blend of ethereum and salana where you focus on high throughput you also focus on paralyzation I I just think both of those are going to be requirements um is paralyzation the most important thing which ethereum like is you know it's not backwards compatible um to me um I I think the most important thing is the lack of fragmentation that I I've

actually started to appreciate more the social coordination than the technical stuff I I came at this very from a technical lens but the more and more that I kind of like dive in the technical Nuance does matter but the social coordination of it all is also extremely important the more that you fragment the different state I think it's just harder to coordinate you have different standards it's not that uh optimism arbitrum and bass can't do a shared interoperability solution between them they definitely can from a technical standpoint now do they want to are they incentivized to that is the hard problem and when you have one giant blockchain sure you are explicitly making the trade-offs that over time we

are going to increase the hardware requirements we are going to increase the bandwidth requirements but when you use this blockchain you're implicitly saying hey I'm opting into the shared set of standards that allow me to coordinate with everybody much easier it's like there's bunch of different exchanges around the world and they don't really talk to each other and you have all the different Antiquated uh banking systems on the back end but if you could collapse those all and make them one giant um kind of like pricing engine that'd be rather interesting um so does that dictate that the primary use case is going to be financial and like composability is the most important thing and

therefore you know I think Financial I mean at the end of these things at the end of the day these are just accounting ledgers keeping track of who owns what I think you it gets a little bit more expressive with things like rollups or ephemeral rollups again like the the details of those matter and like I think where the state actually lives matter but then if you wanted to say do an ephemeral rollup where you do an arbitrarily a mar large amount of you run a neural network in nl2 and then you settle whatever state back to the L1 and that state lives in the L1 that's like a new novel interesting idea I don't know like what the unique product case is for

that but when you now unlock arbitrary amounts of compute that could potentially be interesting yeah Logan H uh can we shift gears a little bit and can you tell me what's happening in the move ecosystem because I've got two charts up I've got the chart of su and I've got the chart of Aptos and you mentioned both of them earlier and su's up 280% it looks like on the year and like over 100% on the month and then aptus is up like 50% on the year and you know 20 or 30% on the month so what is actually happening on the ground inside of these ecosystems that's causing this Divergence from a technology standpoint there's some slight nuances I

think that's probably less important I I think for the new communities what's actually really important is kind of taking the Playbook that salana did where they really focused on hacker houses and they were just available like being on the timeline uh I I've talked with quite a few of well both of these teams now and my explicit feedback to both of them is like be available be on the timeline um and it doesn't always seem like I because you're just in like nerd battles or like talking with different people on Twitter but I think trying to explicitly tell why you're differentiated why PE why you matter um I think the sui team at least the

feedback that I've gotten from Engineers is that they're very responsive uh people really like Sam blackshare um he is very approachable uh he talks the Sam blackshare is the CTO of sui um generally because I think these platforms all blockchains are really engineering driven they're kind of developer Centric you need to have the head engineer be out there be in the open answering questions uh you now see Avery on the time line the CTO of apos doing something similar um to me It ultimately boils down to a race for engineers which I I think now if there's not another 10x Improvement um or 100x Improvement I think toie said this on

the timeline and kind of got some flak um if there's these more minute details of like slight engineering changes but it's not as big of a jump from ethereum T slana then it's like how can you actually uh build the engineering and developer Community from the early days and I think the swei team has just been on the ground floor and has done fairly well at that I think the app toss team uh perhaps and this I think goes to every blockchain when they initially come into the ecosystem they kind of say hey crypto's small let's run the polygon Playbook let's do the big Partnerships uh let's try to do the Googles The Meta the Facebooks um and generally we

haven't seen that work uh it's generally the zero to one with the crypto native and then you continue to kind of expand and potentially do things more over a time as you actually get adoption and so I thinku has kind of focus maybe slightly earlier on like the Crypton native community and I think Aptos um is starting to do that as well yeah I would say it's probably less of a technical thing in my opinion yeah do you think it's too do you think it's solvable when like when someone goes down like an L1 or an L2 goes down that rabbit hole of like focusing on the big Enterprises that's obviously not the not the winning strategy I think it's been proven out so

then is it is it too late to focus on the trying to win the crypto native crowd or is that brand already been supp I don't think so I think uh I mean we always say this but it still feels early like if you look at like the applications that actually make revenues uh we don't do that in crypto but if you actually did uh you'd be surprised and so Logan there's one group who does you know who does that yes research baby and shout out to block blockch work research uh you guys are actually doing a lot of really great things uh not just saying that I think the dashboards that you guys have put pushed out the metrics that you guys are starting to really hone in on it it collectively going back to why I'm

interested in integrated blockchains is because that shared standards that block works research is pushing really helps move everybody forward um so yeah I I think um it's not too early to focus on crypto natives I think of salana has a head start but you have to focus on not only attracting uh kind of quote unquote the Crypton natives but the engineers at the end of the day these are engineering platforms you need Engineers to build on your ecosystem and why people will act actually use your blockchain longterm versus others what um from a developer ease you know onboarding tooling how would you

compare kind of these high through blockchains uh from I I think people like move programming language it's I mean now I guess there's three there's move there's uh sl's programming language which just generally rust uh and then the evm with both monad and uh uh say so the evm still has quite a bit of bugs uh or I won't say bugs uh the evm has potential flaws where even if you're the best engineer we still see General hacks from time to time and I think maybe it's

not the engineers maybe it's just the underlying programming language uh Ross is a pretty predominant programming language uh and so I think it's still fairly well understood uh Sam blackshare the CTO ofu was actually um the main engineer as far as my knowledge at meta or Facebook that really push forward move um and so move perhaps maybe the next iteration or the final iteration of kind of blockchain smart contract design where it implicitly BL bakes in some of these design principles that makes it harder for engineers to write bad code or to write flaws in their logic um

salana uses uh compiles down uh their into llvm by code and so it's a little bit more program agnostic you could use Python you could use Ross you could potentially even use move in the future if move does become the predominant programming language um I think it's more of like a safety aspect and move is probably the highest up there yeah I was going to ask you if salana could you know transition or just Implement move and sounds yeah I've had some conversations but sounds like it it could do you guys have uh any spicy opinions that you want answered or uh as we round up the podcast uh spicy

questions well spicy takes I mean I don't uh I mean what would make you like I I guess one question would be like what would make you totally change your thesis which we've kind of like teased out here in some capacity but I just want adoption I mean like look at the end of the day if it's highr or not if there are people where they find immense amount of value like let's go I I just like and I saw that in the early days of ethereum that's what got me excited like people were building you had defi summer uh there was all these promises of building really interesting applications my personal experience and the experience that I think others experiened as well was just higher gas fees as people wanted to do more and

more interesting things which personally made me not want to use ethereum because even if you're a multi-millionaire paying 500 to a th dollars for gas cost just it sucks I mean if your economic value is greater than the gas cost sure you'll do it but not very many people have that opportunity and so I really approach this from a product standpoint I will change my mind if ethereum starts building better products mhm yeah category wise um anyone any particular category that you're just bearish on just you think does make absolute sense um it's a good

question I mean games is kind of like the easy one to kick yeah's like dancing on the grave which I coincidentally think it's wrong take but yeah I TBD like if games work I I think the timing of these things work uh are hard um games will work like it to me it also seems inevitable that we'll have like a full Ready Player One metav met metaverse uh style World um as a venture investor though I just don't know how to underwrite different games like is the game fun is the criteria and I don't know if I have any unique Alpha and underwriting games I think where our in is uniquely Well Suited as focusing

on the things that will continue to compound I think you can actually reason about this space much more than people care to try uh you have to probably be slightly technical but you can really get into the details of these things uh and then generally once these things start working people underappreciate the nature to which they will continue to compound in the future how worried are you about toxic imbe and that perhaps not being fixed uh to the degree that we wanted to because it is it is perhaps I think in my mind the thing that might that was my counter argument to salana not working it's like it's not that toxic imbe doesn't happen in other chains but because the activity is happening in salana it might just create a perception problem that can can hurt it um I don't think it totally derails

Valley proposition of Solana but he just can set it back yeah I mean as you mentioned I I I think because Solana is the first High through put blockchains it's running to a lot of these issues like the spam like salana was the first to want to go from low high fees to low fees is there's just a new set of problems that ultimately arise from the engineering side I think as you go from like amm to orderb and go from like 10 TPS to 10,000 uh you can do more interesting things but and you can get more trading volumes and salana is kind of like front running uh or spearheading all these like unique insights um the toxic me is difficult I think one way that we think ultimately potentially can

help mitigate this is just doing different orderflow segmentation uh we invested in a company called deflow what they're ultimately doing is really focusing on the maker side of the order book so a lot of people in the industry only focus on the taker side of the order book so you can think of that as like jeto um flash spots uh they're taking liquidity uh I think over the long term as volumes continue to increase you'll have more and more market makers want to come online and start adding liquidity to the markets and this is where order flow segmentation actually becomes more and more important uh you want to know hey is this toxic or non-toxic um and then perhaps in the instate you could

actually create markets for toxic versus non-toxic flow um I don't know like we'll see how they ultimately do and how def flow does like we're obviously very excited about them I think this is going to be an iterative process because uh the toxic MB V is um still I would say be worked on but again this is not an issue to salana I think just because salana was the first High throughput blockchain they're speedr running this faster than anybody else that's right yeah absolutely I think uh perhaps allowing adaps and also users which will not be as sophisticated like just right now it's the the block Pro like me is captur because like the the

block producers have like ultimate control of like how fees are being shared and whatnot but if as you might create like a different layer there that can allow for that flow to come up it might like I've seen different approaches obviously excited about def investor there as well but there's I've seen other um kind of iterations at this I think smart people are trying to fix this um and so it will be fixed probably I I feel like uh Santiago has kind of changed his mind in the last like eight to 12 months but Yano how has your mind changed maybe flipping the script and the book on you have you changed CH your mind on high throughput blockchains over kind of ethereum yeah I've got more excited about I don't I don't know what we're calling them these days high throughput

or monolithic or integrated but from a user's perspective I mean I I tweeted this out the other day like I think I was on um I forget the wallet that I was using but I was I think I was using Phantom but I was using Phantom on a like on ethereum or I think I was I was trying to bridge basically I was trying to get money on the poly market and it was like okay I need to send this token in I basically needed to get U uh a Tok I think it was usdc on polygon into polym Market but then I needed gas and then I couldn't get like basically the user experience was a an absolute Nightmare and I posted this on Twitter and the the natural reaction was just use salana and it's become a bit of a meme at this point like it's a bit

like you know kind of meme which I think is good marketing but like it really does work better um and so from a user's perspective I tend to like it now I'm probably more optimistic about some of the experiments happening in Modular ethereum land than you are um just because I I do also spend a lot of time in that world and like there are to me it doesn't matter as much about the technology and it matters a lot about the founders building in that area and there are still a lot of incredible 10 out of 10 Founders building in that area as soon as that changes I'm bearish on it but as long as there're really brilliant amazing ERS building that ecosystem I will remain optimistic about

it I think that's totally fair yeah so Logan I'm going to count on you to uh tell us when that transition might happen um and when you flip uh bearish and bullish on another chain um so please let us know the only uh I think generally I've done probably the most technical podcasts with the CTO across the industry the only person team that I have not talked to is the be chain team so godam if you want to do a deep dive let me know okay I'll make that happen Smokey I'm putting you on the spot here or popup beir um but anyways Logan um very glad that you were able to take time um

active in Asia we spend some time there so it's always a treat to have you on and um you know have you come on and give you give us your brain dump uh because as I said I don't think there's a person in the space that is as good as you to compile all these different concepts in in in a digestible form format uh without compromising the essence so really appreciate you coming on sharing your insights we'll have to we'll have to have you on more often yeah long better products uh at the end of the day we need to build cool things that people are going to use there's a lot of santic in terms of the underling technology but let's just build people things that people will use products not crypto products as you said products not crypto products at that thanks so much

Logan appreciate thanks for watching today's episode just wanted to quickly mention that the wait for crypto's killer app wve is nearly over thanks to today's sponsor anoma the universal intent machine to stay up to date with anoma you can follow them at x.com anoma or sign up for the newsletter at ana. net thanks again to anoma for sponsoring today's episode [Music] n [Music]