What Institutional Demand Tells Us About the Next Market Cycle | EBC11

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Good morning everyone and welcome. My name is Dad Christensen. Uh I'm the CEO of Viska Digital Assets. We're an investment company based in Iceland. Uh we've been running a digital asset hedge fund for the past three and a half years. Uh we are here today to talk about uh an institutional adoption. The topic of this panel is what institutional demand tells us about the next market cycle. Uh there have been major milestones in institutional adoption in the past couple of years. Uh we've seen spot ETFs coming online in the US with great results. Uh we've also seen the roll out of Mika legislation here in Europe. Uh I

am fortunate today to be joined by uh highly experienced people from the industry from uh across all uh with with different focuses. Um I would like the panelists to make a short introduction of themselves starting with you Ralph. Thank you. >> Thank you. Good morning everyone and thanks for being here. Thanks Daddy. My name is Ralph Ashkar. Um I look after the uh digital uh digital asset strategy at 360t. Um I'm the head of uh cryptocurrency. Um 360t is the FX arm of uh Deutsche Borsa. Um we have close to 3,000 clients connected to the platform.

It trades anywhere between two to 300 billion a day. Um on the crypto side, we obtained our Mika license and we launched in May our um crypto cryptocurrency Mika regulated um exchange. Uh we have three main client segments, corporate treasurers, um asset managers and banks. So purely institutional. >> Thank you. >> Um hello everybody. I'm Sadi Rainey. I've been in the crypto I've been in the crypto asset uh investment space in the United States since 2017. I originally started a quantitative hedge fund that invested in

active uh algorithmic strategies. Uh that company was acquired by Parataxis Capital Management early this year. I also launched the first SEC registered robo adviser for crypto in the United States called Macara which was also sold um to Betterment out of New York. and I'm currently the CEO and founder of Eve Wealth, which is also an automated investment platform focused on getting more women into crypto investing. >> Uh hello everyone, great to be here. My name is Wagin Saster. I've been in the um crypto industry since 2017 also like uh Satti I started my career at Sappo running part of the uh Bitcoin

institutional Bitcoin and um custody and OTC business which was sold to Coinbase and was the beginning of Coinbase institutional back in 2019. After that I was um I joined BitGo one of the largest custodians um as MD of EMA and and Latin America. And two years ago I joined the port digital where uh we are basically focused on uh basically our history starting in 2019 where we launched a retail broker uh in Germany called Bison and with time we've been developing institutional regulated uh infrastructure venues um through brokerage exchange and custody all of them regulated in by Baffin in Germany

of course with the Mika license and we basically try to facilitate large banks, large brokers, financial institutions with all the necessary regulated infrastructure for them to offer crypto and digital assets um infrastructure to their clients. >> Uh good good morning all. Um oh that's really loud. So um my name is Scander. I run the institutional business for uh OKX. Just something really brief about me. So I'm an X- trader fixed income. Then I moved on uh running sales businesses at uh Barclay's Capital Effect Sales. Then I moved into market infrastructure selling. So I've sold FX venues

um regionally globally for Reuters and later on the London Stock Exchange Group. Um for the last years, four years of my life I spent uh building bridges between traditional finance and cryptonative firms. And I was joking with daddy earlier like today my goal is to share a day of my life at crypto and some of the works we have been doing to drive adoption and get you know you guys ready for the next cycle. >> Thank you guys. uh let's start with where we are today like what is the current landscape of institutional demand and uh to pick up on what you were saying is Kandar I think it would be useful for us to you describe a day

in your life like where are we today what are the institutions doing uh and and how has things evolved in the past couple of years >> yeah so look uh I think we need to look back a little bit right um it's almost three years ago that FTX collapsed right so let's start off with the custody piece. So we started off and I'm speaking now what we've done at OKX and so we started off in integrating with cryptonative custodian solutions then very swiftly we moved on to a tripartite model like uh we we borrowed you know concept out of the ISDA and uh you know really built a strong legal framework for our institutional business and

clients to rely on and it's not a two major right if you get an institutional document from OKX it's going to be proper 10 20 pages you need to spend time on. From there on we moved on to institutional bank grade custody and you might have seen our announcement yesterday that we're partnering up for Europe with Standard Chartered Bank. That's a global systematic important bank institutionalgrade delivery of their services. So we're teaming up with them and we're bringing that to Europe.

So three years ago, no real custody solutions. Now there are robust solutions in play. That's one. Secondly, I can't avoid the topic of regulations, right? I mean, we heard a lot about regulations. A lot of exchanges in the marketplace evolved over the last couple of years, right? Again, if we look at OKX, um we're like the McDonald's, right? We're licensed in Australia. We're licensed by the MS in Singapore. We're licensed in um Dubai V and yes we're licensed here Mika we got a very comprehensive license and uh on top of that we also have a myth license now I just want to double

click very quickly on the MA license right because there's a lot of talk and sometimes misunderstanding and sometimes people say like ah Mika license and but actually you're a broker dealer and you're not an exchange so we went down the hard way of building an standalone order book, right? So, local market makers, local clients, your compliance officers and your regulatory folks will love it. Right? Regulatory piece done. Next step, a lot of a lot of the participants talked about banking. We're talking about banking as well, right?

And remember SVB, right? Suddenly your bank accounts were gone. You couldn't get a dollar across to an exchange, crypto exchange to be specific. That has been reestablished, right? The bank accounts. Banks are now proper partners. At least that's what we're experiencing. Standard Charter, DBS, some of the bigger names in the banking industry are banking our exchange. So, what does it mean? You're on and off ramp easy in fiat. What does it mean for um the addressable market is if you're a euro investor, if you're a dollar inbased investor, you don't have

that friction of going from your fiat into stable coin into crypto back and pay that frictional cost and so on and so forth. Crypto has become a lot of lot easier. So trust framework regulatory piece it's all in place and that's been driving and it will be driving the next cycle of clients coming onto the exchanges. >> Yeah I agree on that. Thank you. Uh from the European perspective uh how do you view it?

>> I I'll be I'll be quite sure. Um and this is our day-to-day reality. It's for us once a client is uh more or less convinced or looking into different solutions to give their clients access to spot crypto or that's generally the the beginning. No, it's all about convincing the 150 stakeholders that are in the middle of the decision making and filling up thousands and thousands of documentation and due diligence. It's not sexy. It's quite it's even less sexy to say it here in a stage in a very nice crypto conference. But that is exactly what we do. No, that is exactly why

there's been also emerging traditional infrastructure providers like us, like Bors Stoodgard to close that gap between traditional banks and one of the most interested, exciting and new industries in the world and probably the most innovative thing that has happened in finance since ETFs, right? And the last thing I would say many of these banks and in our case we have a few very specific examples like with the Spark ASAN with Decaban which we just announced um two days ago with the Vols Bank and also in Germany through VB Bank that already covers 90 banks that were 90 sorry 90 million clients that were serving in in Germany. Those deals have

taken between two and two and a half years. So uh again not the most sexy thing to be into in the industry but very much needed. No and it's the reality we're we're seeing right now. >> So so there is progress >> but it's slow and steady. I mean, imagine a 160 years old institution like a Vulks Bank in a in a tiny 15,000 village in the middle of Germany offering their clients crypto through their mobile app, their normal mobile app that they're using every day. That is, in my opinion, huge huge again probably the most boring part of crypto at this point, but very much needed no

to drive adoption. So, so Ralph, you're also based in Europe, uh, and you are are highly experienced and worked in for State Street, which is maybe the typical massive institution. Uh, maybe describe how you are viewing things from your perspective at 360t, which is obviously a traditional finance firm venturing into crypto. >> Yeah. Um so we have I mean looking at the looking at the panorama of clients that that we have we see three main angles for crypto demand. >> You should >> yeah we we see three we see three main uh at the panorama of the market we see three main angles from client demand. I mean if we we we spoke about banks the demand that we see from banks today are

really coming from banks that have an underlying uh retail retail demand. uh the proper banking activity hasn't really moved in yet at least not for now. So we have the demand coming from the banking segment who are looking to service their underlying retail client. So they're looking to stop a gap or stop the hemorrhaging of their uh of their existing deposits or stop other uh companies from attacking their own clients. If you look at the corporate treasurers for example um they're after payment use cases that has changed. Two years ago, they were really talking they were looking for ETH because the marketing teams were doing NFTTS uh for memberships or for some marketing uh marketing activities. Right now, they're really talking more about payment use

cases, stable coins. And then the asset managers, they've actually been on a journey. Uh two years ago, they were probably asking us, am I allowed to invest in this asset class? How do I change my prospectus? And right now, they have a bit more concrete questions like how many coins do you cover? How do I get them? And I agree with uh Hain in terms of they're really not asking about the tail end of the market. I mean they're they'll think about and daddy you probably know that uh and Sadi as well they're they're thinking about the yield later for now how do I get a wallet? How do I get access to these coins? Should I trade a coin or an ETF?

And these are really pragmatic questions. So indeed we are moving uh we are moving at a slower pace than a business would like to see. But these institutions never moved quickly on anything. So um it's moving in the right direction. >> So Sadi, you are from the US. Uh it would be interesting to hear your perspective. Obviously since we were here last year at at EPC, uh a lot has changed in in government, in legislation, etc. Like how how has that impacted institutional interest in the US?

>> So I I've always said that that all the big institutions have had crypto teams for years. They've just kept them secret because sometimes they're embarrassed of them and sometimes they were proud of them. It just depended on the market cycle. And in the last year, all of them have now sort of opened up the doors and said, "Okay, yes, we have a crypto team." And they're at varying levels of allocation. And from an institutional allocator perspective, um, you know, the banks, the bigger banks that allocate to, they're still only allocating most of the time to more alternative asset strategies. And, you know, that's part of their sleeve of alternative assets, but they're not they're not allocating

large amounts of their portfolio yet into crypto. And if they are, it's into ETFs or it's into the new DATs that are coming out because they're they're much more comfortable with the public market proxy for crypto. Whereas, you know, family offices, family offices are much more interested in digging in and and maybe being taking a little bit more risk than the institutions. And so we're what we're seeing that the markets are sort of I guess diverging. So, you know, you used to kind of just pitch to everybody because everybody was at the same level.

You would go to a meeting and you would have to answer the same five questions over and over. What is crypto? Why are there more than Bitcoin? You know, all those basic questions. And now you're getting into meetings and you're having conversations about, you know, what's your custody security protocol? And, you know, I don't understand why, you know, your wallet infrastructure is set up this way and I want to know who on your team is doing this function. So, it's a much more intelligent conversation. But last week, I had a conversation like that and then I had a conversation with a hundredsyear-old family office and the conversation then was back to what is Bitcoin and I don't understand why it uses so much energy and explained to me why Salana is faster. Don't they do the

same thing? So, we're I think we're still really across the board, but uh institutions are farther along than most people realize and I think that we're going to start seeing the next wave of institutional money come into some of the newer vehicles that are hitting the market. There's something if you allow me to add something very interesting and even funny you know um if you look and sad was mentioning at the beginning if you look at at these digital asset teams for big banks or financial institutions um 3 years ago it was like no one is working on this or no one is looking at this and suddenly you you go into the LinkedIn of these project managers MDs whatever it's like three and a half

years running the digital asset arm of XY Y Z, right? You just have to laugh, right? Because now it's the opposite. Now they are all trying to tell the world that they've been looking at this for a long time and that they have all these ideas. No. And you can see in the US JP with Kexis, City with this, uh Morgan with the other like they're all suddenly have a platform to do five different things with their own website. Here is a team. Uh we're hiring. No, I I think u it was something funny to mention. No, because the people who have been in the trenches, I know Ralph from quite a long time ago. Um we have been like desperately wanted to see that and

now that we see it, it's like okay now someone is paying attention to this. >> The competition is definitely increasing. Uh but it's good for our asset class to have more participants. That definitely something that we need and we just have to face the fact that companies like Black Rockck that have been the biggest asset manager in the world. It helps our industry a lot when they start to talk positively about it. That's just the way that that's just is what it is. I think the I bet Bitcoin ETF just crossed 100 billion uh recently. So that's a lot of inflows. Uh >> and now Larry Frink wants to tokenize everything in 10 years. No, he he went out two two days ago or yesterday.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So uh I think we should discuss uh uh what has worked well and and what do we need to change for to accelerate the process of institutional adoption. Um is Kandar do you have a do you have some kind of magic solution for to accelerate this process? Look I I I think when we are talking about um regulations and you know exchanges being licensed uh there's no magic solution right ask any compliance officer they will pull their hair out. So um look there's a lot of um variety and diversity to be kind about the regulators um in that sense you know uh the regulators are doing a a great job but there are stark differences when you look at a regulator in Australia um you

know um MFSA or you know our European regulators here so the mika license or or vara so um what took threat probably 50 years to have memorization across all the centers I think and I hope you know crypto it might take a couple of years but we're not there yet. So there's a lot of regulatory friction and that reg regulatory friction will as well drive the product availability and instruments clients can trade you I know we're going to talk about a little bit later but that's really really key uh because sometimes our clients our institutional clients want to trade a specific product they have been trading previously or still trading on CME is like is let's go can we buy a future it's like um let's

think about it first right it's so so Yeah, sorry. So that's on the regulatory piece. Boring but necessary to happen. Then when we look at the infrastructure, so I'm great to hear that you reaching you know you know the village with the 15,000 uh you know in uh in Germany that's how it should be right. So I think the the buildout from exchanges like you know my colleague here on the left or ourselves that's the right one custody on ramp rails um you know and then the product will follow and digital adoption is already in motion so I don't think we have to worry about that.

Um we had an incident last Friday in the industry uh where we we experienced the biggest liquidation in history. Uh almost 20 billion as I understand it were liquidated. Uh so how does this affect our reputation as an asset class? Uh because in my experience in Iceland I'm I'm constantly meeting with high net worth individuals, family offices which are my investors. Then I'm also meeting with pension funds uh insurance companies and they are not used to seeing assets going down 90% plus uh in seconds. So how do you think this uh affects our the trust towards our asset

class? I can tell you my my real experience. Maybe a year and a half ago or so, I would have received 10 to 15 calls or emails wanting a call from either a CIO or COO or the person who was running their whatever the the bank were talking to running the the crypto solution they want to launch. On Friday, I got two and I actually told my wife like this I mean we've progressed, right? Like I've got two and one of them was actually about like please explain me what why are these liquidations happening leverage etc. You go to Binance and you see all the numbers. Oh

great thank you very much. nothing about should we stop the project should we continue should we put an alert in our apps about this and that right which which could happen in the past and that that's all I would say right like between 15 I'm I'm a little bit talking about from memory no but 10 to 15 to two >> uh we we're getting there >> can can I add to that so I was talking to my teams about it and actually I woke them up on the Saturday morning and uh ready for like a busy day of calling and explaining None of that. And some of the conversation with some of you here yesterday evening and and early this morning as well is like yeah these things happen. Is it nice? No. Is there

always room for improvement? Yes, of course. Right. Um and again we talk about what can be improved is um for example harmonization between the exchanges and how do we treat you know ADLs right? Um and you know when you start explaining to people there's a difference between major stocks and m and small stocks and you compare it to an altcoin then yes these things might happen. Painfully painfully it is. >> Sadi you have been uh you you ran a fund for quite a few years and now you're advising uh advising uh family offices etc on on crypto investing uh an in an event like Friday. How how do you read

into this? Does it affect the trust? >> So, interestingly, even though we had massive volatility on Friday, if you look at the crypto market volatility in in the in the major assets in the crypto space, we're actually seeing less volatility. And the market recovered so quickly that, you know, it's really it's kind of the market actually just gives you a lot of information to work with if you're really watching it. For example, you know, people asking why why did this altcoin go down 90% and you can explain, you know, you can explain it away, but then you can also remind them that Zcash has gone up 500% in in the last month because that's what these markets are

about is that crazy outsized return with the crazy risk. So, in the altcoins, you're going to see this kind of volatility for a while, but in, you know, the top 10, top 20, we're seeing less and less volatility. And it wasn't just crypto volatility this time. Like, the whole the whole market had fun. Um, and so, you know, it wasn't a crypto event. And you would ask, what can we do to prepare people for these types of events? And honestly, the thing that you need to do if you're running a fund, if you're running a company, is you need to run it with that in mind. This will not be the last. These these will happen.

They're going to get less frequent. They're probably going to get less severe overall, but they're going to happen. And you have to make sure that we don't have another 3AC FTX cascading failure. You know, Genesis seeing one company after another go down that were very, very solid companies. Very solid companies. Not all of them. Not I'm not saying FDX is all a company, but some of the companies that failed during that period of time were really good companies, but they weren't prepared for what happened. So, if you're in this space, you always have to have a disaster recovery plan so that you can survive these and so that when your investor does call you, you can get on the phone and you can say, "Here's all

the things that we did." And keeping their confidence is going to be your responsibility. And that's how I think we keep this industry's reputation strong. >> You you make a great point that uh volatility has actually actually been coming down in in Bitcoin. Uh and now we're even seeing banks like JP Morgan talking about gold and bitcoin being the debasement trade. So so we are get getting some recognition on that front and that's a positive. Um Ralph um I'm wondering institutions are they in your view mostly or only looking at the big the majors like Bitcoin and ETH or what are you seeing on the altcoin side?

>> Yeah, I mean we get these questions quite often when we're first talking to the institutions. Um initially they want I mean they're definitely not going in the top 100 uh but they're not only asking for the top two. So they are asking for the altcoins uh but maybe in a basket of 20 to 25 coins you would cover maybe about 80% of these large institution demand as a start um and once they start and once they actually get comfortable with them um and remember this is not about the technology this is about their legal and compliance teams getting comfortable with these coins right so anything that is subbillion in market cap they're not going to touch for now uh anything that has been around for a short period of time they're not going to touch for now anything that they're comfortable from a

governance perspective with the coin they're not going to touch for now. So I would say we're getting demand for anywhere between 20 to 25 coins including some of the major altcoins. Um and then that is um that is bound to expand and uh increase as as as they start in this space. >> Iscat what are you seeing on on interest on altcoins on your side from institutions? Is that happening or are we too early? uh look it it it is happening but it is only and I can be very specific it's only coming from a certain subset of uh institutional let's call them risk takers I think that's the right phrase for these group of people the majority is still on the the majors in which I

think you know there's still a lot of uh you know upside to be had >> so you said uh there's definitely a change now in the past couple of years on you know event like this happening and and and your phone is not blowing up. Uh are you satisfied with the current like regulatory framework or do we need to change things to accelerate institutional adoption here in Europe? >> I mean here I have to say I'm very happy with Mika right now because it has opened up the door for these large financial institutions that do simple things. Okay, buy, sell, hold your Bitcoin and your ease. Full stop. Thank you for coming. Full stop. Okay. Now, if you ask me, is this enough? 100% no. I

mean, we were all talking about Mika 2.0 the day Mika was approved, right? Um, and there's there's a few things there, and this is a little bit connected to your previous question, right, of what has been the consequence of of this volatility in the market. For me, um, there are two things that will drive client adoption both in capital markets and in retail, which is credit, simple use cases like putting your crypto as collateral. Huge business in the US, by the way, before FTX. I was at BitGo there. I looked at the books. I run the book in in Europe. It was pretty cool.

Okay. 150 200% LTVs and liquidations in less than 10 seconds. Why not? No. Um if you have a if you have a good system. No. So um that is probably going to be something happening with financial institutions simply being able to get credit collateralizing with your with your crypto. No, it's very simple use case. Hopefully these situations with this market volatility don't affect that use case and the way the compliance officer the risk officer etc look at it but the regulation needs to be there to be able to do it right now no way no in Europe in a regulated way and the second one is the opposite yield generation

okay banks have in Europe have not been giving yield successfully to their clients since 10 or 15 years ago except for this moment where interest rates um went up like crazy uh a few years ago no a year and a half ago when they were just so forced that some of them did it and even the nail banks and all these came up with no no I'm giving you.1% more and this and that no so Mika right now doesn't allow that but the moment you have the stable coin for payments which is great especially for capital markets to reduce cost okay CSDs bye-bye buy this clearance settlement platform.

Bye-bye. Okay, that's for capital markets. But for retail, the moment you can use the stable coin to receive a yield in a secure way without moving your stable coin from your account, seeing your account five times a day to make sure that your stable is there and you're receiving the yield. Now we're talking. So regulation needs to get there quickly because otherwise Sadi and and the US are going to kill us. >> I have a point here. Sorry. in terms of [clears throat] we're saying regulation there are a couple of points in terms of the acceleration there's also the capital allocation if we talk about banks I mean it's quite painful today if you have to allocate the 1250 or 141 so that needs to change uh for the business case to become efficient from a capital

allocation perspective and two hain you mentioned credit and I think you were talking about uh for leverage and I mean there's also the counterparty this is still an OTC market and you still need the the counterparties that you're able to trade with. So, credit intermediation is also needed in this market. Um, and banks would play a great role there. I mean, PBS, prime brokers, that's still missing in the market today. So, once these are available, once we have better capital allocation, the asset isn't seen as as risky from a capital allocation perspective. And once we have credit intermediation before we even get to the leverage, I think that will open up a lot of the institutional participation in the markets. Can can I just very quickly add something to what Winja just said which

are a very good point and I I can offer here my global view. Um so some of the things we're missing here in Europe. So your collateral yielding something more than 10 basis points. That's what we're working on and actually enabling on some of our other exchange entities. So um you know very recently we're starting to accept uh the Benji token. So the tokenized modern market fund of Franklin Templanton as collateral as margin trading collateral. Um we did a test trade with Bidd um accepting it as margin collateral. We have USDG right uh pays 4% yield. You can hold it in collateral. You can use it on margin and trade. So that's already out there

and I'm I'm you know I'm completely fully aligned with you. um you know companies like ourselves you know we have the technology we have the client demand we just need to get the the regulators comfortable with the concept that's it it's not it's not spooky >> because otherwise the the compliance officer the risk officer etc they just >> they just say no this is I cannot see a paper that says I can do this then no >> there there's there's nothing wrong with a money market front of black rockck it's on chain it pays a yield is US government no risk. While we might argue about it, Sad later.

>> Yeah, it's uh that that's definitely progress and we need yield into uh into crypto. Uh Tether has been having a pretty good time for the past few years uh paying no yield and and having issued 180 billion of of uh USDT. Uh so uh I would like to discuss a bit also uh there were news on Amuni the asset manager is launching uh an ETF here in Europe. Uh we obviously seen black rocks and the black rocks and the fidelities and all those uh launch I think in the US with with great results and massive flows. We haven't really seen much flows in the European space.

uh but there are also some signs of progress where Luxembourg is now putting it putting Bitcoin in their sovereign wealth fund but we have seen much bigger steps in in uh the Middle East where where the Abu Dhabi sovereign wealth fund has bought massive amounts. So I would like like your take on this. What what can we do in Europe to accelerate this uh to get more capital flows? I can I can speak a little bit about this because we've been talking with uh these ETF issuers for quite some time since we offer uh custody we had set up an operation to be able to custody for ETPs, CTNs and ETFs.

First of all, I mean the US moved quicker and and they are a little bit less risk averse. Why not save? No, it is true that that brings uh very good things to the market like price discovery, right? very important and access to the price through you know more let's say more secure ways in the eyes of a risk manager or a compliance manager right we I mean here we when I say we I say Europe we are like two or three years late and we're just copycatting uh what we've seen it's of course a great opportunity for these asset managers because you know the inflows in the US have been absolutely incredible and they're just copying

copying the the setup. Here in Europe, the price is set by exchanges, right? Like it's exchanged driven. Now, we don't have that price discovery which will make markets much more efficient for sure. Um we'll see what happens. I do expect excuse me um a lot of demand also because remember these asset managers are connected to very large pools of money. Uh and sometimes we don't even know who they are. Uh and hopefully they they come out very soon. I do know of one that is going to go out very soon. Uh and it will be a a big big news in Europe.

>> Yeah, that's interesting. Uh yeah, Deutsche Bank recently wrote a report uh about they were forecasting that Bitcoin would be on on multiple uh central bank balance sheets before the year 2030. So let's hope that uh realiz that that become a realization. But uh uh if you're looking for one signal to improve or or one one thing to improve to to uh accelerate the institutional adoption, Ralph, do you have any? >> Yeah, I would say the capital allocation because the minute we change that, we would actually um encourage or facilitate banks coming in and they have phenomenal distribution capabilities. Um that that that will be the one thing I

would be looking and hopeful for over the next probably year or so. >> And say I guess it helps to have a president that uh encourages people to buy crypto. >> Uh it helps and it hurts. Uh so I I'm not joking that we have had interested money managers who are so opposed to the current administration that they now feel that anything good for crypto somehow is current good for the administration and will say I we're we're out. Um so it's been great from a regulatory perspective. It's been great to finally not have the SEC and the CFTC fighting over who gets to regulate it.

At one point in time, we thought that Bitcoin and Ethereum were going to be regulated by one organization and everything else by the SEC and it it's really helped move that needle forward. Banking has changed which is also changing custody. So it is very very helpful but it is um at times also very divisive and has lost us uh lost us allocators as well. Uh I guess uh I think we've covered the the basics. Uh I think there's reason to be optimistic. Uh when I joined officially left investment banking to to start a crypto hedge fund in almost four years ago, so much have changed in in a

good direction. Uh institutional adoption is is happening. It's here. We obviously all want it to happen faster, but uh I think there are good times ahead in the industry. So we just need to keep working on it. Thank you all. Uh, see you next session. >> Thanks a lot. >> Thank you very much.