What Does Real Decentralization Look Like and How Can It Be Achieved

Transcript

all right hello everyone so thanks a lot for being here thanks for the quick introduction my name is Marcel Harman I'm the founder and CE of Thor wallet but also a board member of the crypto Valley Association and yes I do believe that this topic actually does not have enough time um to be discussed in 30 minutes so 5 minutes extra is actually great um the the topic we have today is decentralization and what real decentralization looks like and how it can be achieved and we can look at that from various angles and uh to start with I would give every one of you one or two minutes to explain who you are we have uh four excellent experts here

representing a L1 blockchain so maybe quickly who are you what do you do and who do you represent today I'll go first hi everyone my name is Conrad I work with near Foundation as the head of BB and blockchain success so near Foundation is the layer one blockchain building now the open web texto and some AI web3 Solutions and uh the decentralization topic is very uh near to our hearts at near Foundation because uh blockchain is all about decentralizing the use of the internet and the power that uh this can generate to our society I'm Yan Kish CTO the definity

definity foundation I've been in crypto since like 93 first like doing ecash and distributed systems cryptographic algorithms and since uh six years at theity Foundation now CTO um leading all the development uh I guess also some product stuff as well and yeah I guess interesting to see about decentralization where because at the foundation we have taken maybe different approach from from many others uh happy to discuss like why some we made some of those decisions and maybe time is not enough for all of them but let's see where we get absolutely hey everybody my name is Fred

I'm the CEO of the kadano foundation and uh where basically we've been since 2015 16 really working at scalability interoperability and governance and really thinking about how do we create a better world a more social just ecosystem where everybody has a voice and the next generation of financial operating system hi I'm Lily I'm president of the salana foundation uh salana layer one blockchain uh we just talked about salana so fantastic thank you so much so I have prepared a bunch of questions because I'm actually really interested um in what you have to say the first question I would actually like to address to to everyone um how do you and and your

organization Define the centr ization and do you have certain action step to to achieve that whoever wants to go first uh I'm happy to go first so way back in 2017 when uh we were Building earn.com formly 21 uh we wrote a paper called quantifying decentralization and looked at decentralization on numerous Dimensions right uh and and then kind of proposed the idea of this the Nakamoto coefficient uh which would be uh a blended sort of basket of the the various decentralization um elements and so that was things like number of clients uh certainly a number of

validators and distribution of validators token distribution uh I forget some of the others the one that people typically will reference is uh node concentration um and I think you know certainly developer ecosystem concentration is uh something that is also extremely relevant because that is the long-term kind of health and that's really you know the population of your of your ecosystem over the long term and those are the people we going to help actually build applications and build your city over the longer term uh so uh so so when we think about decentralization I often think back to that paper that we wrote uh and I think that it's not just node concentration although that is of course important for Network Health uh it's also the number of clients you have uh your developer concentration your token holder

concentration uh and I think those are some of the some of the top elements so you know you could take that as a framework and go through each of those and you could even if you really wanted to be structured about it uh plot it out and set kpis yeah in kadano we we sort of pride ourselves about decentralization is at the heart uh but I have to say decentralization there's also a tradeoff uh because it's actually really hard to have maximum decentralization and still be moving forward because there comes a coordination problem into it so we tend to be looking at it into five different elements uh one of the elements is the hardware stack so when you look at the hardware and you look at the you know the cloudbased servers and the bare

metal and so on do you have a concentration on the hardware so in other words if everything is in one Data Center and you pull the plug to that data center does it still work then there is a part which is the the software so how is the software actually compiled you know who actually runs the software and so on then we have um the consensus and I think consensus is one of the things with uh both in terms of the Nakamoto coefficiency but also in terms of the Genny coefficiency kadano scores extremely high but there's a trade-off here right because if you score really really high on all of those on the first three parameters for instance the transactions per seconds goes down and that means that you need to have a really good data management layer to ensure that you can actually do

meaningful Enterprise application or payment rails as Lily was speaking about while still being maximum decentralized and being able to protect the network from certain types of attacks then on top of that comes then governance of course because you know governance uh depending on how you look at it you you know is it uh is there an opportunity for a whale or somebody big to can buy all your tokens and they can sway the governance right where is a tech factor which is very dominant on kadano because we actually have this opportunity right and we're moving into the Chang hard where other protocols them all have you know you know very centralized you know we sit in sou we take the decisions so you have to kind of sway us right so in this journey there is a lot of tradeoffs

you have to do so we we try and do that over those five topics and we really say you know maximum decentralization is not necessarily the goal but it's to have this really good trade of being so decentralized that you can secure the network you can ensure participation but you can also ensure that there is a self-governance that there's no one leader or one person or set of persons who's needed in the future to keep bringing the product to a product to Market fit it's about leaving a legacy who is self-evolving while still having control over all of these aspects of the decentralization right so yes I agree with some of the the layers and all of that right but at the end of the day or maybe at the beginning of the

day you should ask yourself like why decentralization right I mean uh I've seen sort of the the Cyber punks kind of if you read the side out Crypt uh the early 90s and so on right the decentralization was like a means to an end in the sense that we want to have like free money we want to have Bitcoin right no governance control and so like this cross root thing like everybody can can participate uh and that's the other view that that now the industry has has moved towards which is we want to have a secure network right so so decentralization is a means to achieve security to to a large extent right and so then you have to ask yourself okay so how much decentralization do I have in

order to achieve security so mean it means I I don't want to have like a central point of failure because if I have a central point of failure that that point can attack so I want to decentralize just like that uh now of course if you have like like like Bitcoin right Bitcoin was initially very decentralized and they built in this like decentralization system inside the protocol which was like genius right because like coming from more the scientific aspect you would build the dent system okay let's have 20 parties they do that high high secure data center perfectly secure as well works right uh but people didn't invest in in that so so Bitcoin can alone say well okay

everybody should participate right and it worked until now now we have just a few mining pools so it's not really decentralized anymore right and and so I guess the lesson here is if you build your protocol with like a certain decentralization model in mind you you might be it might be very difficult later on so that's why why this different layers are very important you have to think about every layer how do I decentralize there and and what's the point right so the inter computer runs like on on um dedicated Hardware so it's like server great Hardware in in like kyc data Cent so it's known who runs which note in which subet that now

allows you to do some of those tradeoffs that you've spoken about now you don't have to have like 100,000 servers 100,000 machines running your protocol which again would be very slow because they all have to communicate very expensive because you have to pay for them so if you want to have like a a performant blockchain that is cheap as well you have to make sure that you know who the parties are that run run your not your software so the lowest L layer right and then of course you can move yourself up the stack until the governance where we get more in like the the token as system where say okay so like here we need decentralization again we want to have like different voting

power and I think if you look in the real world a lot of religious think in blockchain maybe it it don't look too much at the real world living in Switzerland like Switzerland is a Federated government right and and so also here uh you know like you make decisions but you delegate some decisions and same same in the blockchain world right I think that that's the model that you should take for and so that's why also like on on the internet computer there like a govern system that's decoupled from everything else right like in Bitcoin the governance was part of of the consensus Al it was all intertwined again making this the system not efficient not fast your stock with some decentralization model that you can you

know it's not effective and so that's why by like in in computer protocol for every level we have really thought about what level of decentralization is necessary you can have then of course it's it's a matter of of security as well right so then you can say for certain task I want to have like 100 notes for other task like 13 is good enough because it's like a game I don't need high security for a game also here it's a cost versus decentralization tradeoff so we've like when designing the protocol we have like made like very conscious choices of every level just to you know like meet meet the goals the design goals of decentralization yeah so um I think all of that Plus near is really

a religion of decentralization and how we Manifest this religion is by the design of our ecosystem so of course we as many other blockchains are decentralized by the way our Tech runs but what is I believe unique at near is how we make our decisions and also how we fund our ecosystem so to give you a couple of of examples since the beginning of the near blockchain project we said that the foundation is a temporary entity that we're going to dissolve when our ecosystem becomes self- sustainable and now along this journey we started to spinoff different parts of the foundation and different

parts of our Tech organization called pagod so uh we have decided to uh scale up our BD operation by setting up the hubs across different continents that are independent teams that are running the BD uh operations uh finding the new use cases and U investing in different startups that want to build on near on top of it uh the way we uh started to fund our ecosystem we have set up a dowo called NDC near digital Collective which uh has a voting process to nominate the members who will decide on behalf of the community which project to fund another great example that we have started is uh

the potlock which is our retroactive funding mechanism for the public goods so it's really really within our mindset and within our philosophy to drive this decentralization by not having one entity that makes decisions but not having one entity that funds the projects and but not having uh one single entity that uh is thinking about the future of near so we really want this technology uh to get the organic adoption and we have been super successful in the past uh few years that you know we're seeing like people coming to us at different conferences that oh I'm building on near uh without any ground because I love your Tech so I

think we're slowly getting there nice thank you very much everyone so wanted what I wanted to do is to give the audience kind of a a basis a foundation to see the vision of the individual protocols where they see what is decentralization and how to AEV that so everyone had a chance to answer that I have a bunch of more questions where we can dive into like ecosystems uh examples of the decentralization governance and uh feel free everyone who uh thinks this question is um you'd like to answer just go on and pick it and we can kick off also um a discussion a first one I have prepared is and some of

you have already mentioned it the the governance structure like the need you have a foundation set up you would like to dissolve it some are you have this counterpart between you want it decentralized but at the same time you do need to have some sort of governance oversight because you need to let it grow right and to to be successful in growing at some point you start at the centralized point but then at some point you can evolve it into full decentralization maybe how do you balance that you you grow from a centralized point to um to full decentralization with governments oversight you have certain aspects some rules um written in your statutes or or how do you achieve that who would who

would like to take that question I mean I can go first because we a little bit different than many other blockchain foundations so even though we one of the first blockchain foundations um after the ethereum foundation in in Switzerland uh what's quite difficult or what's different with the kadano foundation is that we did not do any Ico we did not do a we don't control the monetary policy and we don't have sort of magical Genesis keys where we can just print more money or change the the protocol we don't fund uh development arm so we're not saying dear developers this is what we want and there's an SLA between and that also means that we don't control an unchain treasury so we're not just sitting some people in a boardroom and saying I like that project better than this project however we were

when we were founded uh founded back then there were sort of the idea was that you know after 5 years we have a flourishing decentralized Network and the kadano foundation should be sort of you know redundant right and I think when the when the rubber hits the road and you sort of start seeing you know these things take time and you're basically challenging the fabric of society of 200 years of development in a legal and Regulatory spaces the idea about can you control your own identity and what does it mean to be the in charge of your own identity and then the second part is you know there's a difference also here on this panel right between what you can think about as a permission blockchain and a permission less blockchain so there is something about you know what do you stand for and

what you accept in terms of uh who can actually participate in your blockchain which is kind of interesting so what we do in the kadana foundation is we're quite clearly saying we're taking the 20-year fight and when I say the 20-year fight it means that we want to ensure that kadano the public blockchain is available for everybody around the world to get economic opportunities to participate to contribute and it's there also in 20 years and it will still be pumping and not missing a block and you don't have to restart it or you don't have to go down a a wrong fork in any way in a decentralized distributed Manner and that is quite hard on top of that we decided to do unchain governance which is even worse as some very famous blockchains who say he said no we're not

touching that when you you know technology is hard enough but when you deal with people you know that's even harder right so we basically created you know uh you know unchain government where you have so-called delegated Representatives which is politicians online who can suggest you know protocol parameters change in Block size you know changes in the protocol there is a sort of a constitutional committee with a constitution being formed which is sort of the judge and the guard rails whether this is the intent of kadano or not and then there's the Stak pool operators who actually run it who has s of the like the right of refusal right and that makes things quite complicated and it also slows you down but it also Al ensures that everybody has a place on kadano and that means that today you can

take out the original entities around kadano you can basically wipe them from the earth and canana will still be running and it has still been running for over 3,000 days with not missing one single block and it will continue to keep running even though all those entities are not there so for us it's not so much about when do we close down the foundation it's more about how do we get regulatory certainty that wherever you are in the world you can believe in blockchain third generation blockchains you can get economic opportunities wherever you are and even in places who very centralized in the governance that they start seeing that there's new ways of leading a nation state or new ways of generating economic value in places where there aren't any today due to whatever history and there I think you

know blockchains can be an inspiring Beacon for those people that there is other ways to do it does does anyone else want to chip in on here but I guess you mentioned on chain governance right which again going about security like the inter computer started with like onchain governance end to end right so it's like although the definity foundation and I think that's where where we still are not where central as the definity foundation is the one that writes most of the code but is whenever there's like a code upgrade like a new version of the code then that code gets proposed to to the the governance system like a dow token holders are staking there right

the them voting rights and and then they they can then decide whether to adopt or not that new code and all the rest is automatic right so it's like uh quite a unique system it's also of course important if if you want to be like uh on the one hand you you're fully decentralized there on the other hand actually it allows you because it's it's all part of the protocol it actually allows you to still like very fast upgrade that right you don't need any telegram channels where people have to organize themselves okay so now let's installed the new new software it's all automatic right um so I think there uh the internet computer has uh achieved the ultimate goal of course now when we talk about being around for like the

next 300 years uh things change right new hardware comes new protocols need like need to be adopted and I think that to me is actually the most challenging part of of decentralization right because it's cryptography it's complex protocols on so forth It's like if we ask people to build a new Atomic power plant in a descent lless way it's very difficult to do right I think there we're working on that as well right so that when the foundation or a parties hopefully will will contribute no code then also you you need to have other people actually who review that code make sure that code doesn't do any bad at least review the the differences and of course that not everybody can do

right so then you need to have like some experts that maybe chime in and so there like on on the inter computers there kind of like uh named neurons kind of concept so so people can say well okay I'm an expert in this they they can review the code and then they can say well okay so now I voted I looked at the code and then other people can say well okay we follow those guys is like like a fluid democracy kind of thing but okay okay so for for the topic of code upgrade I follow that expert I follow that expert right and the so like in the in the real world again right you have like liquid democracy where you know you have parties or you try to inform yourself you ask now maybe for Atomic power plant some physicists you try to

inform yourself and so we've built the very same thing on the inter computer as well I I think we we can agree that there are definitely many ways many roads that lead to Rome we do have the vision the same vision we want decentralization that's why we are here many ways to achieve it um and in the end we will will see along the way some something works better some Works a bit less um something I'm I'm a builder myself something that I've noticed um that might have not too much attention how do the ecosystem you have and you Foster each one of you um how do you um make sure that the projects that are built have also decentralization in mind

because we have seen instances where I'm thinking about um why this is important we see Rock poles we see people going to jail because it's too centralized um in the end um we need to make sure that the user who use it can um be sure that this Technologies really decentralized also the project do you have H how do you make sure your ecosystem projects um are decentralized if I might start here so on the internet computer there's like something we called service service system for like dabs on the internet computer so if you're like a developer

you have built your your your dab on on the protocol right like op Chad is an example like a chat application it was orally developed by by by three developers right and at some point they decide okay so now we want to become decentralized we also want to have this blockchain security right and so now they then submitted a proposal to the governance system we want to decentralize as well and then the the network created a token for these guys right and then they gave control over all their their smart contracts to this sty right and then then the people were like participating that they bought like or bought their swap ICP against these tokens and so now actually that that Pro

that application that dab is now like an on chain end to end governance protocol as well so now the token holes of of that uh jet application they can now vote on on updates or not so technically at least it's it's it's a dow it's cannot be rocked there is no legal structure I'm I'm I'm interested also in terms of um there is is there a legal structure yes or no do you suggest that to your ecosystem um projects basically then should the tech be different from the front ends should a different team run the front ends or should the front end run anyhow an ipfs or be fully decentralized do you how far do you want

to segregate the decentralizations part um so there is no Center of ATT Tech I can maybe chime in here so speaking about how we build the tech and I think building the tech in a decentralized manner is super difficult as as we as we all have experienced uh working in this industry but what what we managed to do at near Foundation is that successfully we started to see what part of our TCH tack can be decentralized from the core so to give you a couple of examples we started our tech company called Pagoda which was supposed to build the whole protocol but then we figure out okay so we have so many Tex tack that we have built we can spin out the protocol layer

which is the basic basic infr layer of our blockchain as a separate entity so this entity we separate and edits called near one then we looked within our tech company okay we have this this amazing Deval guys we don't need them to run as part of this big entity so we span out that they started a startup called devhub that is providing hackaton services and um Deval solutions for our ecosystem uh recently a couple of weeks ago we span out another startup from within our uh tech company Pagoda called na Labs which uh has started to offer uh data availability solutions to layer

twos on ethereum right and on near blockchain and they're going to compete with Celestia now so the our approach is to see incubate the ideas see if they they have traction and then spend it out through external Capital through VC fundraising or through our you know initial financial support and make themselves sustainable and we have noticed that this is one of the strategies that we try to do as a decentralization um of objective that we want to achieve but also we have a lot of inbound and organic growth because we have a very charismatic leader Ilia pukin who who have this cult Aura around him and all the developers around the

world want to build something with near right so for us it's pretty easy because it's really embedded in our culture and philosophy maybe if you just quickly so guess you I ask about front and backand and so on right I mean obviously cannot be decentralized if you have not all of that implemented by smart contracts right so if you have something on on Amazon it's not it cannot be decentral because somebody has the credit card information so I think unless you can really Implement your whole application by smart contracts you can never be decentralized right it can run part of on a protocol it's not decentralized so that's really the one thing that is important here that we we should uh like realize without every single small

contracts it cannot be decentralized in the first place I think there's something with the eye of the beholder right so um what most people don't understand is that if you have a token project or dab or whatever that might be who lies on top of a blockchain you can't see that in isolation so you can't go to a regulator and say here I'm decentralized because you know I have developed this awesome smart contract and you know that stands in isolation it's just a piece of software code and that's it so whatever lies on top of a blockchain has connectivity to the underlying text and the regulator is now getting so clever and we've been really working with many Regulators around the world because they ask the right questions that they're starting to look at the

connectivity tissue among that that means that you're a part of what you have to choose as a developer depending on if you want to be a maximum decentralized di compared to being you know a somewhere centralized you know gaming protocol or you want to do something in your local community for Telco you also have to look at the underlying infrastructure because whether you want it or not if you become successful you deal with society and Society has rules and regulations and the more successful you come the more of these rules and regulation will apply to you whether you start having employees or you start you know paying salaries there's permanent establishment there's all those things which we can't really escape from because we live on this spaceship called Earth right as soon as we kind start become you know space

Travelers we might be able to define something new so this holistic or sort of the causality there is between that is in important and what we're doing in the kadano ecosystem is we're building rect Tech tools for The Regulators that they actually understand the cality among the governance actions among the decentralization layer to those daps and token projects on the top so there's a higher likelihood that when they send in a no action letter to whatever government it is that there is a chance that they actually get fairly treated and fastly treated so they understand what can they do and what can't they do because there is a connectivity to base layer yeah um I think policy work is of course important but policy work is only

as effective as the government you are lobbying and let's face it most of the governments out there are not effective governments it's a very small handful and here in Switzerland is probably one of the small handful uh so I think you know if you look at what happened to the US recently uh as an American I actually find that to be pretty shocking uh talking about centralization right essentially two folks one person said this 6 months ahead ahead of an election and suddenly the political fortunes of a small handful of people uh suddenly flip a switch on the access that 50 million retail holders of crypto and however many thousands of developers uh can do without without kind of threat of uh of prosecution right I I think that's uh I

think that's totally unacceptable personally uh you know and and on this whole sort of governance theme I think what crypto does is it proposes the the concept of self self- custody and digital property uh very quickly becomes actually a very political notion as well right uh because what Bitcoin proposed is that uh you have uh the governance of this network this system this kind of body right uh is exacted and it's governed by the people who participate in it and that's a really powerful and pretty crazy radical uh insane concept really and not only that it also proposes a governance system where it's very easy to enter and exit quite simply by selling a token or buying a token right

and that's also something that we've never seen or really even imagined before because typically if you want to change the community you're part of you've got to uh it's very physical you've got to pack up move housing banking passports visas all that type of thing uh and so I think that um you know the the the this concept that economic self- sovereignty um moves very quickly into a broader forms of self sovereignty also influences the way we think about how we operate the foundation uh we don't think about the foundation as a company we don't think about the foundation as really having uh a say could have an opinion but we don't have ultimate

influence over any projects frontend decentralization for example I would recommend uh that that's something you put on your road map but that's not our decision in the same way that uh with 20,000 meme coins a day you're going to get some that a lot of people don't like right and people came to us and said are you going to issue a statement about racist meme coins and we said no we're not going to because that is not the role of us as the foundation and we see the foundation as being a little bit like the kind of startup mayor's office of a bining city right uh and therefore in my opinion our role is to create an attractive environment for Builders to come and therefore you know there's what what that means is you'll have a

strategic you know like many cities around the world right Dubai Abu Dhabi Hong Kong Singapore probably top of my list right now uh even zuk here right very thoughtful and strategic said this is a sector that we'd like to attract we're not going to do your work for you because you need to come and build a business that is you need to take risk yourself and you need to build a business which is self-sustaining right uh not all entrepreneurs are created equal uh let's not confuse credible neutrality when it comes to infrastructure with credible neutrality when it comes to the quality of an entrepreneur and the quality of their idea so uh so to me me our role and ultimately this is compatible uh and ultimately supportive of decentralization over time to see it as we attract we try to create an

attractive environment for people to come and buil and we don't pretend that we are the best in class with any specific techn technological knowledge right we do kind of have the elephant brain of the ecosystem that much is true uh there is a treasury clearly uh and I think that that is something that can be very strategic for all projects right because often times when there's a counterparty let's call it custodians and persuading custodians to support the ecosystem if you try to have multiple projects go have that conversation good luck this is the go to market challenge that for example Cosmos has right Sovereign chains every conversation uh is complicated because it's one counterparty in five different chains across the table and uh it's it's very

complicated to do BD in a Consortium type of setting uh so that's you know to me um how I kind of my mental model for the foundation and I think over time if you do a good job with that then the decentralization will come if you have a uh if you have a a supportive environment that people actually want to come figuratively move to your city and use your block space like plow your land uh then over time that that organically is going to happen on its own thank you very much for letting me peek your brain the 30 minutes flew by very fast um I think we have time for maybe one maybe two short questions from

the audience and I would like to give you the chance um to direct your questions at um our four panelists if there is risk of AWS and aut Cloud providers for decentralization uh for whom oh generally um I do actually and that's why uh We've looked specifically for our own chain at least in terms of quantifying Network Health look specifically at ASN diversification as well um what uh a lot of folks didn't really know is that hetner in November

of 2022 overnight said no more Salon validators in any of our data centers and that was 15 to 20% of the network right and uh and actually no one outside of the validators themselves and some folks who were you know very involved in network operations really noticed and because uh we've taken that very seriously so I and I think that's something around the world is or S with various chains as well is and diversity Geographic diversity as well uh is absolutely important I guess here I can say I don't because uh like inter computer protocols runs all on Sovereign hardware and independent data centers no peace on on Amazon whatsoever it's it's all like if I remember well it's like 160 different

data centers and no providers all over the world even if one of them goes off I don't have nightmares about that there's like others that can go on proposal can be made replacing that node with another data center so to me I don't care at all about Amazon or or heads I do think it's a risk um and we we we can't monitor because we have over 3,000 block producing Stak operators uh but we have some really good reporting tools which we also make available for governments when they look at critical infrastructure EA sock one and sock two kind of evaluations of distributed networks um so um you know we we we are aware of it as I mentioned very early in

this conversation uh and I think you have to look at the incentives so when you have some blockchains who basically is for free to run in a Google Cloud environment you will see that if the incentives are not very high from the blockchain or the foundation or you start getting a concentration and then you might get to a situation like like Solana had but there's multiple chain to had that kind of situation so for us it's not a risk at the moment but it's something we aware of and we look at um constantly uh you know I think that these types of events are uh they seem like taale events but they actually aren't if you remember what happened to parlor in January of 2020 uh after the January or 2021 after January 6 riots essentially uh the we two companies collectively banded together and

offboard a parlor from the internet right uh when we in March of 2023 when svb uh had its issues then the government uh enacted operation chokepoint in its final stages and deplatformed much of this industry and others from banking so I think that these seemingly you know crazy events that you know seem like tail risks I don't think they are tail risks in this industry uh and I think that that uh one of the Hallmarks of in my mind people who are part of crypto they are do think about tail risk do typically are typically attracted to contrarian positions uh and and do not find comfort in sort of mid curve type of outcomes

and so uh as a result I think absolutely AWS um to me that's really just three steps away for AWS to have a very hostile approach to crypto thank you very much I think we have time time for one more question no quick one okay if it's a quick one is it a quick one sure my question is a Beyond blockchain and more about interaction with final system I TR and my question

is a Cheng for to maybe very quick quick answer uh yeah I can do a very quick one on that first part yes it is always difficult to maintain a quality tier One banking partner also to run salaries I think all of us is struggling with that again and again and secondly for custody know we have no problems with that yeah and we are in a very uh base in a very proc crypto jurisdiction so we're lucky to benefit from Switzerland and the C of Tu to do our business and run operations as well again

indeed awesome a very big round of applause for this fantastic panel thank you for sharing your insights and expertise today