Blockchain tech and tech law

Transcript

hey everyone sorry about being late i you know i like to do things like last minute it's a little bit more of a rush but um you know i i have like an exciting talk for you anyways even though it's going to be like five minutes shorter than any than than expected i might even leave room for questions at the end depends how it goes so today i'm going to talk to you guys about blockchain tech and tech law it's like a mix tech and tech law talk i'm going to be pretty light on tech details but i'm going to talk about like the basic tech details and try to relate them to like tech law realities and i'm going to be going off my slides and i have to like refresh my slides and but like probably um everything should be smooth sailing so

thank you all for coming and here we go so here's kind of like the outline of the talk basically um i'm gonna do a lot of background most of the talk is gonna be background basic basic facts and circumstances that like will help you imagine you know the the the things that i'm saying or the things that i like you know i want you to take away from the talk etc and maybe hopefully make this stuff accessible where normally it might be like esoteric and rather inaccessible so um the background you know you could read it i'm not going to list it out but then we talk about like the opportunity that we have because of this and the possible features that we can that we can expect today and like how we could might might be able to improve the situation

so what is tech or like what do i mean when i say tech in this context and basically there's like three things it says technology which is kind of like the thing we normally think of as tech is like these tech objects things that like persist in the world and like somehow exist out there as tech objects uh or at least as like formal specs or like documents or something like we have to have a text object written down in math or something and we have technical information which i also am considering to be like in the scope of tech for the purpose of this talk and also like technique which is like kind of you know the disciplinary kind of like you know like how do we use tech like how do you interact with it like the it's more of like a performative

relational to the objects and to the information so in some way there's like objects you know knowledge or information like doctrine and then like technique which is like the practice or discipline or a performative kind of aspect to it and so tech kind of has these like different components when i say tech i'm just gonna i'm kind of like referring to all of it and so cyberspace is this thing that's like super relevant to this whole conversation and like it's like in some way it's like made possible by tech stuff basically we have personal computers like connections routers theater at the web web servers that make this crazy infrastructure where like internationally all over the world we can make this space called cyberspace in which like today is

mostly like known for like the web and where you go to like websites and like you type stuff and then like the website's content change and like you come back and like your post is still there and there's this kind of amazing space that's created on like some computer somewhere that like is connected to like your computer here somewhere and there's all these intermediate tech objects and tech information and techniques that are required to pull this all off so this is like the stuff of cyberspace the technical stuff of cyberspace on some like basic basic level there's obviously like you know lots of infrastructure in the web and stuff that i'm not like mentioning i'm not trying to go super deep into cyber space like like web tech how about blockchain tech so blockchain tech has like a somewhat

different kind of space to it um it uses consensus protocol technology and like rather than you know having like web servers we have like crypto economics and blockchain governance um so basically like you know there's cryptocurrency that incentivizes incentivizes people to run these nodes that form consensus and then we like govern the software repositories and and and we have this um consensus protocol technology that like in particular blockchain made scalable uh that's like the core of the blockchain space and it's really interesting because it's not like normal cyberspace like normal cyberspace is on a web server like on someone's server that they own operate control have legal responsibility for etc so um and then

and then when you want to use this stuff you need to have like all sorts of background information you need to understand like asymmetric key cryptography or like you're going to like potentially get wrecked in a rather unfortunate and costly manner um i need to understand basically like that nodes and services don't play necessarily the role of like running the blockchain you know it's not like the like ether scan owns ethereum runs ethereum you know it's not like the node operators or the miners own ethereum or run ethereum so there's like this kind of basic information about like the the blockchain you need to know in order to like use it safely because like imagine like you don't know about asymmetric key cryptography you lose your keys you try to call the operator like you know it's been seen and done too

many times and it's like really been a lot of pain for a lot of people and so you really need to know this back on stuff in order to like use and like use this tech and then there's like basically the discipline associated with that to some extent ah coin ship this is an interesting word i just made up um uh so so so so the idea is like you know there's like all of this kind of like relationship to coins that you have to have and like sometimes people are hodlers some people think they can like time markets like some people are no coiners and they like it how it helps and like people have different kind of coping strategies for like how to deal with the information in the hand um and then there's like the actual practice of participating in governance which is like a really really important

thing that like makes this all possible really uh and so like blockchain tech technically is actually made possible by a bunch of stuff that's like you might already feel um you know the sort of sort of legal implications of so now what about law like what is law like when people talk about law it can often be very confusing because it's filled with basically like a lot of different conflicts of interest and so people have like views of law that reflect their like position in the law and the the the place that they're in like some people if you say law it's just like a scary word like some people you say law it's like something that's reserved for like the priests class of like lawyers to figure out

but like if you're like a lawyer or if you're like deep inside the law communities you have a much more diverse and nuanced and like complex picture of law so depending on where you are the law feels much different but as like an educational tool here's kind of like the basic like essentialist kind of strategic definition that i like to use or like you know like maybe not definition but like theory of law that like law basically is some stuff that you know that structures constitutes modifies regulates modulates you know mediates conflict or disputes so it's like this stuff that is dual to conflict and disputes that like helps us manage conflict in society and so you know law is always about managing conflict preventing it dealing

with it resolving it etc and then there's also um so that's like the stuff of law in some way and then there's like legal representations and legal doctrine which is like the stuff that we used to understand the law and include stuff like legal orders legal analysis legal advice like you know like like things where people say like oh here's what's going on and like you know like or here's how it's gonna be or like um all these variations there's very different legal postures that exist based on the position of like power or authority or like you know like understanding that you're speaking from and so there's like legal representations which are also kind of an important part of law really and sometimes people like only recognize like legal representations of the law as law um

but you know there's also legal practice discipline and this kind of like a whole broader performative order in the law and so it's not just you know and so it's people's like legal practices and people's like more illegal modes of adapting to the existence of conflict and the imminence of conflict and society really you know is also diverse and interesting and um and it also kind of is meant to be really important in the law so you know there's like somehow like there's like actually like in our conflict something that is like the law that's actually there and then there's like our legal like representations understandings and then there's like our legal practices and disciplines and all this stuff together somehow comes together in in the law as like you know like that like

is this thing that is like structuring all of our conflicts like on like a day-to-day like immediate basis as well as like i don't know like long term and all sorts of different time frames so so when i talk about law like that's kind of that's kind of like a high level what i'm talking about so tech law and the law so basically like you know tech law is law that governs conflict and tech you know it's the law that's due to tech conflict um but like law in general is you know a big complex thing that is like shaped by all the ways that conflict can play out and tech affects the ways that people have conflict people have historically always used tech techniques you know and in various

senses of word tech in conflict and so um you know like but so like the theories and practices and stuff associated with the way we have conflict over tech really can influence you know the shape of the tekla battlefields um but so does sodas actually like the design of the tech well the important thing to recognize also is that like law tech law doesn't exist in a vacuum you know we have like the tremendous legal history that you can't like possibly understand without historical perspective like law is so complex we have so much conflict over time it's impossible to understand the laws it is today without like understanding like how we got here because like it's of the level of like

complexity of the thing and so and and and and and because of like this how basic harmonization that happened needs to happen in the long run you know the history of the law up to this point is going to influence how we have conflict in tech you know we can't just have tech law conflict independent of like the law as it is today because like people are you know ready to bring existing legal culture they do it even unintentionally by just being cultured in the way that they have conflict and so they will always bring the law to where they have conflict and they're all and people always bring a lot to them and the forms that they they recognize and so you know law is like really old really complex and it's something that we need to like and something we need to understand our

current disputes in terms of and so we can't just imagine tech law as being independent of the law so here are some like blockchain tech design realities that like end up being important like legally speaking to our tech law questions let me just drink some artwork thank you um so um so we we have this requirement for cryptocurrency for like the basic uh institutional design of like probably blockchains that like you know it doesn't work without them basically because of the way that the fault tolerance works we need this like crypto economics in this

cryptocurrency and so the photon is like a big part of the model because we don't and the whole model is like we're not owned and operated by like node operators and so like they're not like it's like the service provider like the devs or whatever like or like you know there's like there's no there's no there's not supposed to be anyone who like runs the blockchain you know that's and so and so the fault tolerance and resiliency thing you know plays into like this legal question of like how do you have beefs around the blockchain because like if you can't order the node operators or like you know easily anyone necessarily you know to to to to to change it so there's basically like this actually the basic because of the distributed nature of the consensus protocol basic level of like

fault tolerance and resiliency that's required and that poses like a legal barrier to any kind of you know conflict that's going to change the blockchain you know because of like the like you know because of like the force of the of the beef or whatever um and also we have like very tech for technical reasons we have like this strong requirement for trademarks and up-to-date software repositories because of like bitrot and the basic realities of software development we have to like maintain up-to-date software repositories and we have to have a trademark so that we know like you know when we talk about it and when we like like like buy and sell the cryptocurrency or you know that we know what we're getting into and because we're all talking about like i'm using the same instance of a protocol from like a particular software repo

and so like their trademark is like a necessary part of like just like the the way in which we use a blockchain just like it's like part of the basic information of like how you use blockchains like you know like what is the using bitcoin are you using ethereum like you just like really got to know that it's basic basic basic fact about blockchains you need there's like trademarks and software repositories um that are kind of like in some way um you know places where the law maybe exerts influence where usually it might have deserted influence on like for example like the node operators which we don't really have here so here you know it's like as a that's like more background basically um we have

existing legal realities in these spaces like trademark law is old intellectual property law is i mean probably also old uh and you know in in our context we have like this open source norm and regime and so these are kind of like existing legal realities that will influence how conflict and crypto and like blockchain in particular play out because like we can't like reinvent contract uh sorry trademarks or trademark law or intellectual property law really exactly we're kind of like you know or let me put it like this if we try to then we'll have like this like beef with like the fact that like the the the way that we're having conflict isn't in

line with like the like law that's already established and so and then there's also like these kind of like tradition of like tech laws regulating the tech as if it's a tool that people use and they're keeping people you know like like like um responsible for the way they use the tool and so like you know if you did something with mal intent if you like you know like did like damages if you are like you know criminal using these tools like it doesn't matter what tools you're using that's the crime and so you can have like a regulation of tech through the use of tech as tools in like existing legal notions of like you know responsibility liability like you know like contract toward criminality etc et cetera and so and so there's there's

there's basically um just from its use this kind of basic legal legal regulation of the use because like people are engaging in it to do other things um but but you know like notably that's not exactly regulation of the substance of the tech it's just like how people use it how people interact with it although of course it can like have impacts and then there's like this question of like a professional liability for like architects and engineers this is like also like a normal reality and like the law like generally speaking because when you're building like bridges like super important infrastructure and you screw up in a way that has a lot of damage like usually like you have like some liability and you have some way in which that's managed you have some way which you know you might have like insurance

and then as long as you're not criminal like the insurance covers it or something and so and so there's like this professional liability norm and like any kind of like high-tech and like especially infrastructure kind of kind of space and then there's like in our space like it's particularly relevant to talk about financial markets regulation which has like this long and like you know especially more and more important over time until maybe now question mark question mark regulation um where basically like the ways in which you can legally spend money or like lawfully spend running from like who you are depending on what position you are in the law like is really used by the law to like enforce this kind of order globally and so like financial markets regulation is like a really really like important

piece of the law and and crypto in some way like as like it's in its like tech image doesn't really recognize that and in some ways and so and so there's like a these are like some existing you know just some existing prior like legal realities that are going to be like you know set the stage for conflict in tech law actually because like of the way this is all packaged and distributed as technology um and then there's like we have this like kind of thing in the law where basically the nation-states have become like you know like historically have become like this kind of like ultimate source of law where like they have like a like ultimate authority and that's like a geographic area and you know um but like technique and tech in general isn't bound geographically and so like the way

we in which we use this nation state to manage conflict and the way we which we manage conflict in crypto you know maybe maybe well there's like some some room for some conflict there because the norm of like state enforced rules as like the way we do crypto laws like doesn't like really work in like this like crazy cyberspace that's like international or if it works then yeah it needs to be like very coordinated and kind of kind of um you know a global enforcement regime which which is something that like legally there's a lot of resistance towards because people want to have like basically like agency in their law they don't want to have like global police

coming down and and and and telling them like you can't run these servers or whatever um and then basically there's this other really kind of relevant deeply relevant reality which is that like the way that like the economics of law works today and like the like you know like in the like law of economics like we really rely on economic growth and like the way that like the economy and the economies and everyone understands this like we really rely on technological progress for economic growth and that's like a real high level strategic legal reality where like that like sets agendas for like people all over the world and they were like willing to like back them up just to make sure that we have this like tech accelerationism that's like required for

economic growth so there's this kind of like conflicting um legal like desires right you want to keep people accountable for their professional like failures but you also want to encourage innovation and and so the law is like used to juggling these kinds of conflicts of law um um and uh and i don't like between jurisdictions in like the private international law sense um so that's like some some existing legal realities that like you know we experienced today as being super relevant to blockchain governance and crypt and crypto law um just on like a almost day-to-day basis so right now we have basically um some some this is like what i like

claims like some tech law that we already have associated blocked intel quite quite strongly and basically like this whole like doctrine and belief and like you know like view of like the blockchain is immutable like when you learn about blockchain you learn that it's immutable you learn about all this minimization trusses permissionlessness stuff which i still insist like and i think is like reasonable to call it zabo's law and you know fight me like let's talk about it um and you know uh and then basically you know um there's there's this like real information legal information about how we fight about crypto that says like oh we don't change the protocol we don't change the blockchain like that's not a thing that we do and like we minimize as much as possible so there's like this really

strong legal norm um which is associated with the technology so deeply that people will be like if it's not immutable it's not a blockchain it's a database and like all sorts of like innate stuff like um you know i can go on and maybe i will i mean i'm gonna do q a maybe another um and we also have this open source norm which is basically like oh like we're like open source software we try to be like software as speech like you know like crypto is speech like let's do everything open and free and have this like we have this like really strong open source culture in crypto which is like a very real reality in our tech law because like a abandonment or like the disowning of

uh responsibility that is cultured in in open source really um and then we have like trademark protections which is actually like a you know very very like um real thing in crypto where like you know like i'm involved in a trademark dispute and like you probably know people who are too and it's like a really really high stakes thing when there are trademark disputes in crypto i mean like i mean which bitcoin is actually bitcoin like even me saying that is like almost almost a crime because it might be like misleading people into buying something that's not bitcoin that's bitcoin you know like so like you know like this stuff is highly contentious and like highly much like even me saying that like i feel like this the like

specter of liability because of like when you suggest that there might not be only one bitcoin it's like a trademark issue it's like a it becomes like a fraud issue and it's a really serious high-stakes stuff that people will like go to war over in crypto all the time um and this stuff is like kind of already very associated tightly with the blockchain space and this kind of like defines in some way or realities there so basically what happens is like this doesn't actually like square up well with these legal realities we just talked about and so there's going to be conflict in tech law in particular over like this stuff you know um the the the blockchain objects are successful like basically everywhere

um you know it like facilitates crime it like makes creates new schemes for evading liability it creates risks for financial markets regulation it has no national authority that can like say like what's up and creates like this highly politically economically contested space so like you know we set the stage it sets the stage for really a lot of conflict in tech law in particular because it's package distributed and advertises technology uh and and and and you know for some in some way that's like very very fair but there's it's not obviously that simple um you know let's talk about like immutability open source and trademark as being like kind of like um you know like little tech law realities today in in in blockchain that people like really

like are like so attached to that like it's hard to disassociate blockchain from them um and we have basically like um an obligation to prevent some bad outcomes um and um because basically like in the context of these conflicts there's a tremendous amount of stakes and there's like certain things that like could happen that like will like end badly like we can just sort of tell analytically that i want to like caution us against so this first one is like along the lines of immutability like do we really want to be legalizing fully fully time with software and legalizing in the sense of like you know making protected by law um

like in the way that we're doing with blockchain immutability and unlike this whole like unstoppable code minimization of governance and like no don't interfere with the software no matter what because like that's like not allowed um and also like an alternative like that i think is like a very very real risk is that like we will legitimize governance systems and say look we'd like follow the system the system makes the decisions the system is responsible it wasn't me it was the system you know but like systems don't govern like systems don't govern systems are not people systems are not personalized they're they're they're when you talk about systems it is kind of dehumanizing if there's people in those systems you know there's there's be there's there's a lack of judgment

uh in systems like more there's no moral responsibility that a system has by itself you know it does not a system is not a person and so like to legitimize like governance systems as like a thing the way as like a way we make decisions is like something that we like have a tendency towards in crypto because like we know systems we like systems but systems are not the kind of thing that governs anywhere really and people like to pretend that systems govern because it limits their liability limits their responsibility limits the extent to which like they have to actually be accountable for the results of their will really and so there's a big conflict of interest that makes people think that like we can just have a system that

governs we don't have to government system will govern we'll delegate our responsibility to the system basically and there's like another similar thing which is like okay well it's not a system let's create a state you know let's have like let's have like a a state a crypto law state that will like govern for us and then we don't need to be responsible we can delegate it to the state who is like going to be like essentially like us incorporated you know represented by so and so and so and so according to like you know like you know this kind of like states like rules which like you know it's like it don't mean like this you know like state system that we use as like kind of like a person to like dictate the law or like dictate how conflict will play out and and and that's like super dangerous

because we're talking about creating like a global state that has enforcement power everywhere um and then we have like this kind of like just a little more generally like rather than like a state or a system like this just general the notion of positive law like we can somehow like figure out by agreement or by the stuff we've written down or by the stuff that we can all check how we're gonna have these conflicts you know these conflicts are so deeply contentious there's no way that we're gonna resolve them from agreeing on something i don't care if it's principles i don't care what it is a constitution like like like a like like a like like a code of conduct it doesn't matter like i'm like there's no positive legal basis for managing conflicts this high stakes this contentious this huge and this potentially consequential um and also

like again that is an avenue for just making yourself not responsible for the your role in conflict because like hey you know like i i checked and the law said this is the outcome like i this is not me it's not my will like i'm not responsible for this and but but that's not like real life like real life is like you know you like want to not be responsible but like you kind of are because like you if you fail to like factor your will in the projections of the future then like you're kind of like you know acting like you don't exist in the world and and really like in being this kind of like you know non-responsible or just claiming that you don't have power where like you know but if you're in this room like i promise you you have power like

you are like you have the like requisite basis for being responsible and you know you can't like say like oh law is this like thing that we all agreed to or like this thing that we could like figure out in this like deterministic closed way and not be responsible for like the result and like and then basically say look you know my hands are tied i can't i i'm not like and then have everyone's hands be tied and say like you know here's how the law works so positive law has like brought many many different ways of working but it's ultimately like all about like we can all commonly and check how the law's gonna work but that kind of makes it so that like it erases our conflicts it raises our possibility for conflicts because we have to

check using the same basis how we're going to have conflicts and it kind of like really reduces the space for us to maneuver in our disputes and again create space for us to absolve ourselves of responsibility for the conflicts that we're engaging in the conflicts that we're setting up the conflicts that we're framing the conflicts that we're creating and being party to being adjacent to being just conscious of even if you know they're not like a part of our mainstream like discourse um you know probably because like of the scary nature of all this stuff um so you know um i think like the the big like thing i want to caution everyone for like in this space all the time is like any way to to try to delegate your like

moral agency and responsibility or to like you know deny like the reality that people like cannot delegate their agency and moral responsibility and so and then and that basically is like a basic legal like fact in my opinion or not in my opinion it's just like like you know the nature of having actions with consequences in the context of other people you know it's like uh you know basic responsibility that we have and there's lots of attempts in the space and lots of attempts in the law to try to absolve people of this agency and responsibility because it's hard to be responsible but you know um that's the nature of like being in like a society where you have what you can make decisions that affect

the lives of others it's just like you have to you know recognize that you have agency and what happens and take responsibility for that you can't like pretend that you didn't just choose this and then not be responsible even though like the whole time you like made this happen by like being like this is convenient for me and i'm not going to do anything for example among like many many many other possible postures and ways to like disclaim and avoid being responsible and being accountable and being you know like there as like a recognized agent who's choosing this or participating in this hysteria in a particular way or or you know is like and instead trying to like obscure and say like oh like

it's like a musical technology like not my fault no one did this like kind of stuff so that's like a big caution sorry i've spent so much time on that i'm like obsessed and i think it's super important um sorry i have like some duplicate content here but basically we have a tremendous opportunity to develop our legal capacity um and to have confidence in blockchain line like a safe and responsible way that doesn't commit any of these faults of of absolving people of their agency and responsibility in these conflicts and that is like a tremendous opportunity because we have like this space to fight over where we don't have clearly established legal actors who can just dictate how it's going to be and that is uh not an opportunity that

comes along very often because people like their legal power they like their legal positions they like to solidify them they like to conflict people out of even considering that like someone else might be you know have some agency in the law so people are really really protective about the law and the opportunity to like have clearly an opportunity to develop how we have conflict in the law is you know rare and interesting and needs to be taken kind of seriously in order to take advantage of the opportunity and not end up in like a super bad outcome so here are like for example bad outcomes that are like really really like on the route today like on on like very possible today very much

stuff that we can't say that we have a reason a reasonable strategy for avoiding like legalize fully autonomous software like no matter what happens like you don't change the code like doesn't matter how many people are dying like it doesn't matter you know what's what what the rube goldberg machine is like using that piece of code like you know fully autonomous software like rather deal with conflict like let's just make it be autonomous like that is very possible feature that's like kind of our present already so it's like it's like a reality already in some deep deep way and and then we have also this like like the possibility of like this fractionation and having like national or multinational blockchains because like people can't agree on like a global basis or not people not i can't agree let's say let me take a step back whoa i shouldn't

have said that sorry like wow that was a mistake i didn't mean that at all um if people can't responsibly have conflict and it's not responsible to have conflict by forcing people to agree um then we might have uh this kind of splitting into different national or coalition and that like like you know like different groups of nations having like their blockchains that they use and then like you know having this kind of um like more governments that are more comfortable with apply to these um institutions that are like new and and kind of um hard for us to imagine how we're gonna have conflict over on a global basis um unless we're imagining that we're not

going to and we'll just let the software be autonomous which is like kind of the default that we have today which is deeply deeply questionable and problematic because if it's like hard line stance so and then there's crypto laws states law states is like a real concern people are like i know we'll create a global government that will enforce the rules and say like here's how it's going to be like let's let's create like something that's as powerful as a nation state but for blockchains and like that will like enforce these things everywhere in the world and and you know there's a number of notable crypto projects that are that have this model i'm not going to mention them um but it's like a really really bad thing that like

no one really in their right minds could want because like you don't want no one wants a global state that can police critical public infrastructure and like your like localhood like and like who knows you know it's like it's kind of like this like like dream for like a one world government like that's like what this is and like there's people literally like trying to do this in crypto and you know maybe it's not like one world because it doesn't govern everything but it governs like you know infrastructure that's claiming to become critical in like public infrastructure and like that's like a way that you can start to extract rents and demand stuff like legally and so like crypto law states are like one outcome that like you know i think is like

really possible future that we haven't protected ourselves against and we have like this international law for crypto idea like oh like the nations of the world they're gonna get together and say like oh we need to work together or oh this is a problem we need to like you know really really work together um and and and and that kind of you know reality is like already there obviously to some level but uh you know international law regulation for crypto would look basically like these big international governance bodies that we know today making these decisions and making these calls and so and so in some way that's like not really taking advantage of our opportunity to create like a new responsible way for us to like manage

conflict and it's just delegating it to you know the powers that be today on the international level and like letting them take their sweet ass time to like figure these this out and like you know like and do like a honestly like probably like a predictable job um which you know also i think is like a bad outcome so like these are and these are like basically our main outcomes today this is like what we face this is like our choice of options this is our menu um and you know we could like break it down a little bit further you know like does the crypto law state like use on-chain governance or off-chain governance or like you know but like there's like this is basically like this is basically like the options we have today and like that's not great so we need to create new possible

outcomes and blockchain governance and tech law like we can't we can't be going down these routes we can't have fully autonomous software crypto law states we can't have you know um the blockchain be split up or really governed by like the standard big like mainstream international legal like bodies because basically that would be giving up this opportunity to actually like you know have a conflict in a new way and a new type of space that like is you know although it is still tied to and related to it are going to be harmonized with some aspects of the law where we still have a tremendous amount of room to maneuver and experiment and where we don't have to like throw away our opportunity in order to like not have not be responsible um so i think we need like basic legal training for people with agency in

tech alone like if you're making decisions that impact the way people have conflict over technology like you should probably have like a little bit of basic legal training because like you should understand that like of the liability that like comes with that kind of role and posture and position and you should understand that that's like you know something that like you might want to protect yourself from but like also which is like a normal and natural and actually very important part of law that like people with agency over the lives of others are accountable libel and you know don't just treat them with disregard um or negligence or any of the other horrible ways that people treat each other um so um you know we need to recognize the basic

legal and legalistic side of blockchain like people blockchain has always been legalistic it's always been about how these conflicts played out from bitcoin to like the bitcoin white paper like the ethereum white paper the ethereum yellow paper this is all of this legal language drenched tightly associated with it and right now we need to like you know recognize that like that's like a thing we need to be responsible for we can just like act like oh it's just tech or doing just tech stuff although like nonetheless you know we really need to get to a position where we can have securely conflict and tech law where we're not trying to like hide behind misrepresentations where we're not trying to take hard line postures where we're ready to like have conflict in a way that is like recognition recognizing of other people's like agency responsibility like

moral will in the space and not trying to kind of make it something depersonalized make it something that like you're not responsible for and something where basically like you know you have a secure posture and therefore can provide security to other people as opposed to having this posture of like i put myself in a straight jacket therefore you can trust me which is like insane and not sustainable so you know right now we don't manage our conflict in tech law sustainably we have like this complicated like legalistic institution and then we say it's like immutable and stalking technology and it is super insecure just like has a matter of like interpersonal relationships over conflict you know like you do like you can't like tell someone like you made this thing it's immutable i'm not going to change it and like it doesn't matter what

happens to you you know and so like when we when we make it just about tech and we forget about like the context of conflict with other people it can be really very very dangerous um and um and so we need like security we need to have a secure approach and not be so insecure and have like and not try to be like here's how we're gonna do it here's a model here's a system here it's like the rules here is how we can suspend judgment and just make decisions and be happy with ourselves we need to like you know recognize that in this time we don't have these things that we can rely on we don't know we need to be responsible and we need to act like we're participating in these conflicts not act like we're you know like nothing we could do like

satoshi decided this like zabo decided this like and then like now like we have this fully autonomous software oops like let's you know it's it's something where you know we have to have thieves with these people we can't let them like dictate that we're gonna have like future forever fully autonomous software because like back in the day they had like some paranoid ideas about law and like that then that that was their solution um so you know um these are my suggested interventions really and that's my talk that's everything that's all my content so thank you so much for listening so let's see do we have time for q a

we have like maybe some time so there will be a course about legal education like where can i sign up it would be really nice sorry what was that i mean about the legal education i think it's it's great uh myself i'm like working here and i have like very little knowledge about legal and i agree it's like really important so yeah so so the thing to note is like okay depending on like people's like place in the law they have very different like view of what the law is and so if you want you would you you could like you know you usually

try like a diverse like to try like how to get a diverse taste because like legal traditions all over the world are very different and um and another thing to say is like oh like there are great in our space like organizations that do this stuff like koala like crypto law review for example um and they're worth looking at worth checking out um and and so and then basically like you know but this is a space that's heating up everyone's gonna be like super trying to like set the educational agenda because like that's like a power move to say like okay like how are we gonna be educated about how we have this conflict and like how can we get them to all like accept the system that will let like my project go through unscathed you know so there's gonna be all this

kind of like conflict over and you have to realize it's like highly highly political even like the idea of like legal education for people with agency and tech law you know because like people in tech law people with agency in tech are basically like used by people with like in strong legal positions in order to like do crazy without their really like understanding or of like what like the like a lot of people like figured out is like the best business model for us to like just really crank it or whatever so like tech people like to give legal education tech people actually like maybe changes the dynamic in uh in a tech company and like where people like aren't willing to be as exploited you know and and that's like okay so so it's like political this is like a very political thing it's gonna be highly contentious

so you have to think you know like who's providing with this information what are their incentives like there's almost no way they're not going to be conflicted when they tell you this stuff even if it's only like just to impose their own legal order that they have and that they like enjoy in their own like imagination in their like legal pretend world or whatever so like so people will have like so many conflicts of interest and so like i have a hard time like really recommending but i would say like this like there's great places where people share ideas and where you can hear lots of different perspectives and and that really helps because like law really is about conflict and so if you only hear like certain perspective it's like really really really um can be kind of like you know make it harder for you to recognize like

how could we responsibly manage this dispute for example so you know it's important to have like a diverse legal education don't like just go to like ecommerce law school or don't just go to like law school in paris like don't just don't just do that like you have to have like a much more broad um world especially when it comes to crypto law specifically right i mean if you're if you want to be a lawyer in france or in the usa i mean yeah those are the right choices but like if you're just interested in like like being responsible for your agency in like tech club by virtue of working on login tech then like you know that's like not the place to go like they're not set up for that they're not they're not gonna like know what to do with you even yeah so thank you for this uh and you

know it's interesting because it's a very challenging problem it's not that easy right and we're basically following this we need to go against the popular convention of mutable stuff that is going to change the pattern that you currently have i made a personal mistake that i thought that in order to meet the law we just built private chains and i thought that's gonna be like the right way to go about it and then wasted three years just building isolated islands that we couldn't connect to and the question is will we be do you believe that we'll be able to find a way to be both working with illegal kind of posture so not to say that we know what is the law and everything is going to be like future proof but that

will be an incentive for other projects to actually to work in a way that is not going to create this autonomous software that we cannot stop while still being profitable and have the incentive model to do the right thing yeah of course i mean i think there's like so much breadth of possibility and that's actually like much more valuable if the software isn't immutable you know and it's much more valuable if we can like responsibly have conflict about it than if we have to like hide in our shells and be like can't touch this you know for example okay thank you would you set up incentives for techie

people to run for office in like nation states or do you think that's not a good way to go about it no i don't think that's great no um i i mean it's very exceptional that that would be a good idea um um you know i think like there's already a tremendous incentive if you like know to like learn about law because like of like your like reduced ability to be like exploited and taken advantage of if you know about long but you know um i think there's also like very limited national solutions to these tech problems because like like like

what's the nation in which ethereum is governed is it france i don't know thank you for the talk um my question is what are the lessons that we can take from web 2 from a legal perspective and standpoint and apply to web 3.

the threat is real don't become complacent ever you know it's like like like the the like like progression of like the powers that be into like a position of like exploiting the technology for like their like political agenda is like slow and inexorable and like you know like we can move fast but like you know like they have like another level of momentum in some way and so like in some way let me see like this um there was like a lot of like centralization of power and corporate capture in the web that like we still feel to this day we're like who knows how many companies like know exactly who's in this room and what like is streaming through the air right now

really and um you know there's so so there's been like a tremendous amount of like you know insecurity and like like like like deviation from like the original like you know like spirit of the internet to a point where we're like now like we're like it's like a system of like control and and and you know not just obviously it's complicated but um you know i think the main things we can learn is like you know like they all everyone from these from these like the early web days has regrets have serious regrets and so like you know we don't want to be them in 30 years like being like

sorry about what we did or what we didn't do sorry to keep it somber but you know that's the talk yeah so um actually this morning i read some news um about the eu passing some legislation it's like saying that full application of the eo eu anti-monarch money money laundering rules to the crypto sector and what they basically say there is like a bunch of things but also that anonymous crypto assets will crypto asset wallets will be prohibited

and like what do you think about that because if i like take that to the full basically everything we're doing in ethereum space with ck knowledge and like all these things like is metabolism going to be illegal and like what should be the reaction of this from like the cryptosphere as a whole like what do we do about this like yeah well there's a there's a lot of room for interpretation about what that means and like to make a crypto address not anonymous is quite easy and like it was like trivial even and so i'm not like afraid of that language in particular and like it's gonna take a long time for them to have language that is actually like effective um and in a way where you can't just like easily non-trivia like like trivially interpret it in a way where like you're still allowed to do what you're

wanting to do and so like you know there's like it's gonna take a while for you know like the really like like like like like if that's even every possible like to happen you know because like just because you're using journalist roofs doesn't mean it's anonymous like like at all at all at all like and like zero knowledge proofs are proof like there's so much accountability there in just like the proof system and like the fact that that is like a proof system it's like crazy levels of like you know uh lack of privacy even that's like entailed in like the fact that you need to like have the hash commitments to make these proofs like if you wanted privacy you would have something where like there's like no linkability like no proofs even possible

like really ideally so i would say like this like you know there's a lot of misconceptions about like what the tech can do and like what is like the basic realities of the tech but what is and what what if what there isn't a misconception about so much i think the thing that like is more clear is like uh that like the kind of like political negotiation over her like our future that like we can accept for like civilians in this case uh in the eu um you know and like what whether like civilians in eu can like use like anonymous digital currency and like you know like that's like it's not going to affect like you know like the state it's not going to affect like people working in like like for the state in various capacities or like maybe even like people who are regular

like marley banks like we'll probably be fine to do it like who knows there's all there's going to be all these exceptions and stuff it's not going to be like affecting like the public and stuff so let me see like this you know there's the the there's a lot of stuff is the political like that it's kind of more about like you know like what is the future that we're going to like try to live in and like and like they're saying like okay well obviously there's like these financial market risks that crypto's not dealing with and they're like they're concerned about that i don't think that's totally legitimate concern um but like you know like to talk about like crypto technically is like very specific and like for something to be anonymous is basically impossible like if like it's like basically impossible like there's not that many people on earth

like it's like very hard to create like anonymity and like crypto system in like the strong strong strong sense um and like even especially like in practice when people are using it so i think but i think also like people are inspired to like you know like earn their freedom through the creation of these like tools where they cannot be surveilled and spend money and stuff online which is like and i think that there's a lot of room actually in the law for for compromise on this stuff where basically like you know i think a lot would work fine even if people like had access to like cash online like i i'm not like like that insecure about that although i don't understand like everyone wants like a easier time you know in the long run so like it's like it's like a conflict and

it's like highly political it's highly uh you know determined by like you know the different like sides of the debate in like the policy making circles and in like these like circles that are like you know like trying to push this like particular like crypto law agenda but um let me say i don't know i haven't looked but also um i don't really you know like believe in like people's ability to use the language precisely and to be responsible for how it's going to be interpreted and and all this kind of stuff and so like there's so much room or still just because of the early nature of the language you know that you can just structure your affairs and like carry on but i will also say like this like you should be mindful of like the future political like wins and stuff

and say like okay like if politically like we don't want to accept this like lack of privacy like that's something we should like organize like in like land and like you know try to put pressure on in this case the eu uh to recognize that like this is like a right that we have and like they don't have the authority to take it away like for example who knows you know i don't know i mean honestly like i i don't talk to you like i'm sure you shouldn't talk to them like that if you go talk to them i'm just saying like this is from like the point of view of like you know like like the like rights we have today and like how like logistically it takes to like defend them um and so like you know like i i question you know like the like like

the the specifics and the way this plays out in the long run and stuff but but definitely like the politics is important and when they're signaling something like that it's kind of like an aggressive posture it's like increasing the stakes but it's also creating an opportunity for people to be like here's my fully regulated scam coin eu approved eu sanctioned like buy now you know like and so there's like there's like this real like like like uh responsibility that we have that like to like to like not let people use this to create scams and um and i think that's like also something that like you know is like kind of inevitable given the nature of the crypto space today like people will like take this and be like this is a rubber stamp i'm verified on you you know

and it's like and it's gonna be a thing where like um it's gonna be like you know like a questionable political legal situation that like happens because of like the people who like take the take these opportunities and maybe are like you know in line with like like the like the system but like baby aren't like you know like the um like bread and butter of crypto let's say i like what you said about um not kind of fighting the systems because there's definitely humans behind these systems that was something i needed to hear today thank you but uh one thing i've seen in the us is these uh

our system of law sort of being used to take advantage of people like britney spears and like these conservatorships that have people kind of trapped into these situations they don't understand kind of how it happened i think it happens like to older people um is there a risk you think in crypto where we need to kind of where do you think i can like set my focus because i watch this whole britney spears thing for brittany um and really i'm thinking what she just needs to be like delivered a hacker should get all of her into like a cold storage wallet and then like disappear

because she's like trapped there is there something that like do you see any like is this a risk to deliver a hacker because and is she gonna be further taken advantage of i mean like i mean okay it's like always delicate what you're trying to like help people with their like legal disputes but also i would say like this like crypto is very much you know like into the like like like escapist like you know like just put it in cold storage and run away kind of like life and so like i would say like there's like tactically like maybe a possibility for brittany to become free with crypto but but like like probably not really like because like a u.s law is like like has like long tentacles and like

it's gonna be hard for her to like stay out of the us and also say like this though um you know um there's a lot of injustice in law and there's every legal form is abused and there's no way to like avoid that because of like the adversarial nature of law and because of like people's like um like like because of the way the lawn is today basically it's like it's like it's like impossible to avoid the the the abuse of all these legal forms and so like you know like you you know it's like definitely you know uh like horrible but but like i don't know like what the like legal remedy is

because like it might just be like you know like a case of abuse and like it might not be like a change in the law that's required but just like in this case like for justice to be done um although i don't know i'm not sure the details but like you know it's obviously it's obviously sensitive and complicated or maybe sensitive just because of like the like specific case that you're talking about and like you know it's an ongoing case well like the conservator ship that's just been used and abused over and over again i think it's a much bigger issue than just brittany she's just kind of brought it to i think the attention of well my attention yeah i mean i don't know i don't know much about conservatorship i wish i could like

talk about servership a lot but i can't i don't know so thank you so much really appreciate it guys you