Vitalik Buterin: Ethereum, The [LAST] Steward of Decentralisation. Ep. 607

Transcript

when I got all the sheibbas and then one day I discovered that uh hey like there's actually a significant amount here and probably you know what goes up quickly must come down quickly and so if I don't like scramble to figure out something to do with these coins then they'll just uh the opportunity will be gone and so I uh dispersed it to a bunch of charities and uh I had been expecting to give them like coins that they'd only be able to cash out for like maybe like 10 $20 million at most but then somehow to my Great surprise. The docoins did not crash. They recovered and so uh they were like a couple of them were able to cash out hundreds of millions of dollars. the Ethereum ecosystem going well is like a very important thing to

particular parts of uh the world going in the right direction right so that uh it it includes finance includes things like identity as well it includes uh improving uh governances uh and uh I mean making uh you know global finance uh free and open and just like creating uh like more of these neutral layers. EF is uh you know uniquely suited for I mean one is L1 protocol development um two is uh on the uh application side more insistent uh approach towards saying like no it has to be decentralized it has to be private it has to like not have back doors it has to not uh you know like rugpole users

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Nosis, building the open internet one block at a time. So, we're here at ECC8 for the annual Vitalic Talk after interview uh on Epicenter. Thanks for doing this once again. Of course. Yeah, great to see you guys year in a row. Yeah, I feel like now we have like the privilege of being the people who talk to you right after your talk. Uh let's hopefully we can keep this going. Yeah, you know you talk well once again also like last year we are we are between two ferns. You do not know the context but we we'll we'll send you some examples and you'll be inspired.

Um so yeah I'm curious maybe we can start there today. If you look at how you spend your time if we have a pie chart what does it look like? Okay. So I think uh for the last six months uh I mean quite a bit of it has been like various EF internal things. I mean there's uh quite a a few initiatives that have been started and actually quite a few more in the pipeline right so I think you know you guys people have already seen a lot of the stuff on scaling. Uh there's also uh important things uh coming down the pipeline in terms of improving security and uh in terms of u like taking a

decentralization and privacy first uh approach to um optimizing the user experience. Um so a lot of uh different things that are like that. Um then still research. Um, and I mean I generally find like the the way that I do a lot of these things is uh through these kind of like medium length sort of uh deep dives, right? where uh like I yeah, you know, I could get into understanding uh 3SF and then yeah go and make an implementation of 3SF maybe see that it works like see what parts uh might make sense to improve and then recently have

been uh looking into some of these ZK topics more. I also published like that post on like properties of ZK ID a few days ago. Um then uh um quite a bit on account abstraction uh I mean which actually ties into privacy because uh one of the problem one of the UX problems of privacy protocols is that because they're not first class citizens they need this like wrapper address to send the transaction and that's like the the source of a lot of UX pain. So the research intends to like basically bounce between topics in that kind of way. Um then yeah, EF things uh then uh I mean

outside Ethereum I mean of course you know continuing to do the the BV and DIA things though in that case. So basically, you know, what happened over the last couple of years was we spent that uh $200 million of dog money um on like basically funding various like open-source defensive biotech. And uh now it's going into this process of uh like trying to build that up as a more long-term effort where more other people are in involved with building things.

Uh, can you talk a bit more about this this biotech? Yeah. Okay. Um, so, okay. Do do you remember the uh I forget. Have I uh described the origin story with the dog coins on a previous one of these? I feel like I must have. Don't think so. I don't think when when we got all the Sheba. Yes. Yeah. Basically, yeah, when I got all the sheibbas and then one day I discovered that uh hey, like there's actually a significant amount here and probably, you know, what goes up quickly must come down quickly. And so if I don't like scramble to figure out something to do with these coins, then they'll just uh the opportunity will be gone. And so I dispersed it to a bunch of charities.

One of them included the India cryptocoid relief group that Sandepo was doing. Um and then uh also like there was the future of life institute. There was like Foundation, a couple of others. And uh I had been expecting to give them like coins that they'd only be able to cash out for like maybe like $10 20 million at most. But then somehow to my great surprise, the dog coins did not crash. They recovered. And so uh they were like a couple of them were able to cash out hundreds of millions of dollars, which was like way more than two were able to spend. Um, and so, uh, basically I got roped into kind of scrambling and like helping to figure out the most effective, uh,

things to like spend that level of money on, especially on the COVID and bio side. And uh we've funded a bunch of uh like really uh cool uh stuff that can uh like basically make uh milk society much more pandemic proof in a way that is fully open source, fully globally accessible and uh you know like does not uh rely on any kind of like like centralized and coercive measures. Yeah. And uh like it includes things like much better testing. Um it in being able to detect viruses earlier. It includes uh you know like ways of filtering the air that are like basically invisible but

they can make rooms like this one like basically go from being uh like risks of transmitting things like COVID to just not being risks. Um so it's like the sort of thing where like if all of it was integrated we would have just been immune to CO completely. Um and uh then there's uh also like stuff on sort of the level of the immune system where actually you know 3 years ago the discussion was about vaccines and now it's like things have advanced to basically like much more like targeted ways of prompting the immune system that uh sort of like have more upsides and uh like fewer downsides and and like much better reversibility at the same time.

So I I asked actually I asked Grock uh before doing this what were the list of your top achievements in the last 5 years and this was number two. I can't what was number one? No. So what do you think number one was? I mean I'm I'm guessing the merge. Yes, the merge. I can't remember what number three was. I think number three is a kind of underwhelming answer but uh but yeah. Do you think rock is right? Number one should be the merch. Interesting. It is uh actually quite important right. I think uh and if you think back to uh you know like myself 10 years ago and uh like asked like hey you know like what would you think if you knew you'd be involved in an initiative that would directly reduce the earth's

electricity consumption by an entire 0.3%. I think uh you know I would have I mean mind you I mean you created that 0.3% it's back to zero. Well, it's debate. It's, you know, debatable whether it was uh like would have been other proof of work coins anyway or possibly it could have been other proof of uh but other proof of stake coins that would have done it faster. Uh but it's still you know compared to the counterfacts like if we're just analyzing the span of those five years it's a a big deal. Um then yeah so then on the on the biotech side that's like actually a lot of uh super uh cool uh stuff uh

actually like even uh you know like things that will just like even be able to make um you know like conferences go from being like crazy super spreaders of all kinds of diseases to just like not being that at all. Um and uh yeah it's like open source technology fully accessible to anyone you know like it doesn't uh require like people to do annoying things and and change their behavior much. Uh so and like it's uh I mean it's only going to get more important over over time right especially uh as like the viruses keep getting uh keep getting crazier. So yeah, no, it was it was fun and it was, you know, the fact that like basically a

bunch of uh people trying to sort of uh like ape on top of Dogecoin and make their own thing just ended up funding all that. It was really fun. Yeah. One day there'll be like a Wikipedia article that talks about how you know a dog memecoin funded all of this some biotech and uh disease prevention uh measures. So in your talk uh you made a point that you know oh maybe in the past just like growing the crypto space was you know inherently good but at this point we've kind of at the point where that's no longer necessarily the case. So when you think to your own motivation of

working on Ethereum what's what's the biggest driver for you? What makes you most excited to keep working on Ethereum? Yeah. Well, I think um you know the thing that we need to shift gears to, right, is from uh like basically saying something is by default uh like worth building on because it uses blockchains to thinking uh the things that are worth building on are the things that use blockchains, you know, or use other technologies to have the best properties, right? Uh so like you know like I think this is you know true from both sides, right? like if you have a blockchain thing that has you know an on um a back door that uh can just be like rock you at any time then there's sort

of no point and then on the other case uh you know if you make a decentralized ID system that like barely uses a blockchain at all but at the same time it like really improves people's privacy and self-s sovereignty properties then like that's a win right um and so uh yeah I think you know we needs to go from technologies first to going from uh to going to properties first um and like that is the space that I think really needs to be grown right now. Let me maybe ask the question differently like you know you like you you you've been working on this for 10 years. You spent like most of your 20s I guess now you're like you know in your early 30s um working on this

you've become fabulously wealthy. you would have the ability to spend your time on like any number of society ch like important things. Do you think that blockchain is the best use of your time like you know through you know how like at which point do you say okay I'm going to totally switch focus to something else or does that even h like happen? Yeah, I mean I think uh I mean the other thing of what you've learned right is that like trying to like make make change in a domain that you don't understand well is like itself often like interacting with a very chaotic system and it's uh you know easy to make mistakes and you know there's plenty of

people who just decide you know like hey like let's u you know make the government more efficient and then like immediately pivot to that and then like it ends up going in a very different way from what they expected, right? So it's uh I mean I think you know to me you know like the Ethereum ecosystem going well is like a very important thing to know particular parts of uh the world going in the right direction right so that uh I it includes finance I mean I think it uh includes things like identity as well it includes uh a lot of the yeah kind of you know financial and information uh um layer of uh the global

tech stack. I mean there are other things that are super important right like the biolayer is important and like I have been working on the biolayer there uh have been uh and even uh you know things like uh you know improving uh governance is uh important um and uh I mean actually in that case I've sort of tried to push the Ethereum ecosystem uh toward being uh more if uh something that can be really helpful on that side of things. Um, so yeah, I mean I I guess I do uh like already work on work on some of those areas

though I always try to ask the question of like what is the intersection of like what is valuable and uh like where I feel like I would be able to contribute something valuable and of course where my input would be welcome and and uh I mean making a you know global like finance free and open and just like creating like more of these neutral layers especially in the context of uh the world um like going into this uh like place of uh just much greater distrust and conflict I think continues to be an important thing. I mean I think uh there are other layers of uh the stack that are also super important and uh I

think like I'm open uh to I mean and I have contributed to those other layers and like you know the I mean the ideal outcome for me right is that I think a a lot of people in the Ethereum ecosystem you know to the extent that they come into it for uh the same reasons that I come into it then uh and then they would persuaded by the exact same arguments that trying to look at those other layers of the stack is the right thing, right? And you know, you see this in Bitcoin for example as well and there's a lot of excitement around things like Noster, which I think is a really healthy type of experimentation. Um so I think you know like us as a a community sort of

expanding in uh in the stack in that way and like starting it from a uh kind of both the perspective of I mean like what is the right thing for the world and what is the right thing for like some concrete problem that we need to have solved is uh important and you know like that second thing kind of gives us like measurable grounding uh to know if we're going immediately in the right direction. Let's talk about the EF a bit. So, there's been a lot of big changes at the EF. Like, what triggered the changes and how would you describe for those who haven't followed it too deeply, what what how would you describe the changes that happened?

Um, yeah. So, first of all, I'm hired at two new executive directors. Thomas Stanchek and Wong Shiae and uh you know they've been doing a lot of the work on starting some of the new initiatives that uh people have already heard about right and that includes uh you know things about scala it includes things about security it includes uh like aspects of engaging with the ecosystem more and uh a lot of other things that are still uh uh coming down the pipeline.

Uh so also you know the board was also expanded right so it was myself and uh and Patrick before and is also there now. Um, I think, you know, the underlying goal is to try to like continue to move the EF toward being this uh a long-term uh stable structure that has a clear understanding of like what is uh its uh role within the Ethereum ecosystem and like that has to change uh over time because you know like the facts on the ground about what the EF is doing and what people outside the EF are doing keep changing, right?

And so the um like I think earlier on there was sort of more pressure for the EF to kind of act as like this representative and coordinator of well that was stage two. First stage is like builder of Ethereum as a whole. second is representative and coordinator of Ethereum as a whole. And we are moving toward a point where the EF is uh more able to like focus on representing the aspects of Ethereum that uh like not just the ones that are like weighted by importance, but the ones that are weighted by uh what like which ones is the EF uniquely able to do and where it's most likely that they

would not happen otherwise. Right? So and then at the same time you know like maintaining uh kind of close links and having uh good relationships with other people in the Ethereum ecosystem that are doing other things. Um and so the uh aspects uh that uh like we think that EF is uh you know uniquely suited for I mean one is L1 protocol development um two is uh on the application side um like taking uh this uh like more insistent uh approach towards saying like no it has to be decentralized, it has to be private, it has to like not have back doors, it has to not uh you know like rugpole users. And uh you like

user experience is being optimized but it's being optimized conditional on those goals like basically look at signal for inspiration not um and uh then uh and like actually yeah I mean I could do a high quality job of uh like focusing on those different things right that's kind of why more putting some social pressure as well so I think social pressure is actually the thing that we've overused right like uh the thing that we've underused is uh I mean one is like uh like basically being involved in actually building right like I think uh the EF has for a long time said it's like layer one only

and not application layer and we've like actually yeah switched over to uh being uh like doing much more application layer things and we think that building is like actually a much healthier way of uh achieving those goals than just complaining Right. It's uh because like if you just uh complain then I mean the problem is uh I mean one easy way to understand it is like this is the way that like Europe sometimes gets criticized on Twitter. It's like you know you know you know the cartoon right like you know you have like the like the dragon with the like one type of tech company the dragon with the other tech companies and then you have the bottle cap and like hey you know we bring the regulation and we bring the fundamental values but then like if you do that but then uh like you don't have uh the

startups of your own or then uh though that but that means like the EF actually building amps directly or just not right so not necessarily apps. Uh but I mean being more involved on the wallet side is one example. What does that look like concrete? It could actually it could look like a lot of uh a lot of different things. I mean that it could in like just actually directly building like software pieces that makes it easier to do kind of more complex things that include uh like interop things between O2s that could include privacy operations include include other things and uh you know like doing all of that in a uh like very

uh open source and uh like censorship resistant and kind of not intermediary dependent way um is one approach. Um, I mean cont like being more proactive in building standards would be the other like if he had to like send back uh information in a time capsule back to like 2020 and like change a thing about the L2 world, it probably would have been that we needed to set much clearer and like much sooner standards about like what the like asset issuance and bridging would look like, right? Um so uh like contributing to building standards is one thing contributing to like different uh software packages is uh another thing. I mean contributing to

like the development of like particular applications which can happen in all kinds of different formats is uh also one of those things. Um but I mean this is one of those things that's still really being uh fleshed out at the moment. Do do you think the EF should have a more active role in doing things that help support the ETH price? And you know there there was for those who don't know there was an announcement here of this Ethereum community foundation whose main objective is to support initiatives and things that would uh help increase the EV price including burn maximalism uh and a bunch of other things.

Yeah, I mean it this depends on you know like what layer of uh the stack we're talking about, right? Is it important like do you guys think about the ETH price and like is it important for the east price in your view to Yeah, I mean I think there there's a balance, right? Because on the one hand obviously if uh ETH drops by by a lot then it becomes harder to just like fund everything else that we wants to do including both the EF and including all the other actors within the uh ecosystem. On the other hand, in a lot of the like focus areas, it's h difficult to say what is the ETH price maximizing thing and uh like uh and and what isn't you know the the ETH price

maximizing thing like you know you have to have some kind of philosophy of like what the thing is that leads to higher ETH price and at that point it's uh more uh like valuable in a lot of cases to just like focus on the philosy directly, right? Like do you have a view on cuz uh obviously over its whole history Ethereum has done like phenomenally well but like or the ETH price but then in the last you know few years it has is underperformed Bitcoin and Salana and a bunch of the other Mhm.

Um do you have um your thoughts on what is the reason for it? Um and I think to a to a large extent um you know they like everyone's answer has to be yeah it's like very very hard to say right because you know prices are controlled by just like incredibly unpredictable things that like pretty much no one understands and like you know like what even is your theory of uh you know the price of Dogecoin right and like every underpriced exactly yes basically every single cryptocurrency You know when people make a me this a meme of like oh you know we need to focus on rev right but the

reality is like every cryptocurrency is uh like if you try to use the rev model to value it you end up just like getting numbers that are way lower than the actual price for pretty much everything. Um and so then uh we say well what is the other thing and then it's you know like oh you know like the centrality of uh of ETH in the onchain economy and like that yes so like that is something that I think like research circles in general have started discussing more then you know is every single cryptocurrency a memecoin to some extent but then if it is then like what even is the meme um then yeah so it's uh one of those things where I Okay, you know, you can't uh

like be too confident on a specific view of like what makes ETH go up. The thing that you can do is you can identify things that are just like clearly true across a wide range of philosophies. So like one of them for example is that you know if the ethl one does nothing um and the ethl2s can um continue to like grow grow and dominate on their own then like there aren't like there isn't a direct way in which the eth1 exerts influence um and then there isn't uh any direct actor with agency to like actually you know support the value of ETH whatever that actually means and so that is the path to ETH becoming more

and more irrelevant over time, right? So, so should you be more like Trump and tariff the L2s, you know? Okay, so this is a an interesting economic uh question, right? Because uh like you know we have talked about like EIP that make like push up the minimum blob price and uh you know a lot of people are very open to that, right? And like basically you saying you know the minimum blob price is some higher value and then uh that I mean it's like actually great for aligning everyone's interests because then it means that increasing the blob count is would not be something that uh decreases the amount that the market pays because if the price is uh at the minimum then uh

the only thing that can really shift is in any case is the quantity. Um the uh the ch the challenge with sort of tariffing all twos beyond that right is like people sometimes have ideas of like saying hey there should be a 20% tax but uh the problem with the 20 like a 20% tax is that uh if you like with purely onchain enforcement there isn't actually any way of doing that that can't be pretty trivially avoided right because like if you have an onchain rule that basically who says like hey like the protocol looks at what is the the fee charged on L2 divides it by five and then hands it over to L1 then like the L2s will just start paying fees through

some kind of like off side channel sort of way and like I mean there even already exists protocols that do that I mean even you know like ERC 4337 itself is one of them right uh so it's uh like charging percentage fees is just not a thing that is uh practical for like that kind of static uh uh system. Um in general uh like yeah and having a higher like higher min fee for blobs is something that I am quite uh in favor of. I mean having like stronger norms of uh issuing assets on 01 I'm in favor of um the yeah there's a bunch of uh like moderate things that make sense. But

then the other thing to keep in mind in all of this right is that I think uh L2s have proven themselves uh to being a a very positive force for the Ethereum ecosystem in all kinds of ways right they uh you know they bring in uh a lot of a lot of applications they bring in a lot of usage you know arbitrum brought in Robin Hood this week and uh also because L2s have independent sequencing uh they're able to actually you know like do things like offer vial low latency like uh offer stronger guarantees that users are not going to be sandwiched or like otherwise subjects to like toxic MEV. Uh so and that's like a thing that is

fundamentally harder for the L1 to do right because you know the L1 like it has to have like open decentralized block production. it's uh going to have us a lot times uh the and uh you know they can be decreased somewhat from what they are today but like Ethereum becoming real time I think is totally crazy right and like I think uh if Ethereum gets sucked into directly playing the HFT game as an L1 then like to me that just will fundamentally destroy Ethereum's soul right because uh like getting into the HFT game does destroy your soul right and I think that's true for individuals it's true for L1's as well and uh if uh L2 who's are able to kind of absorb that.

Why does it destroy you? Why would it destroy Ethereum? So um because it's an extreme optimization game and uh there is a general property of optimization games that that's kind of the Salana path, right? Right. Yeah. Like there's a general property of optimization games that if you optimize like too hard for any particular measurable objective then like not only does it cease to become a target but actually diverges from uh the target in uh kind of arbitrarily unbounded ways right um there was a an interesting uh chart about this uh from uh I think like because this gets talked about a lot in like AI safety and like philos type of philos philosophical

discourse right that sort of in a within some fairly normal context like a lot of different ways of describing morality end up like basically being the same thing, right? You know, we all agree that you know like wars are bad and helping poor people is good. Uh but then uh on and then on the other hand if you like define the goal in a particular way then like does that mean that uh you know we should uh destroy humanity in exchange for a one% chance of giving really good lives to 500 trillion shrimp right I mean I'm sure people have you know seen these debates on the internet right it's like so like I mean okay fine maybe like a more human analogy is okay well but I'll give you a more human

analogy which is like if you try too hard to get uh like excellent uh like scores on every single standardized test in school, then like you just become boring across all other dimensions, right? Well, like so it's a I think it's like that general type of pattern, right? And so uh yeah, like to me L2s are just like a thing that is uh better at kind of absorbing that kind of load in a more encapsulated way. And uh like L1, you know, like it does need to scale more and it does needs to be faster, but like it needs to have a role that's distinct.

And do you think there should be native L2s? So, okay, this depends what native means, right? Because uh like in my typology, so I think uh so the word like the word native basically means that the proof system is native, right? Which is like actually really good. Um then there's the qu so there's the question of uh like one is uh like basically is your proof system the same as the L1's and that's native. Two is is your sequencing the same as L1 and that's like based roll-ups and like I've gone back and forth and uh you know like I've disagreed with my previous selves on the the based rollup question and I'm like very open to myself in the future disagreeing with me on the based rollup

question. Uh but uh basically uh on the like my I'm actually like more bearish on based rollups than I was before. And uh the reason is that especially if L1 scales much more which uh like we actually have very good ways of uh doing uh without while even increasing people's ability to verify the chain right which is what happens with the whole ZK direction and then on top of that you know blockable access list and like that whole chain of things then uh so if that um happens then um basically the main value ad of L2s at some point stops being about raw scale

and it starts being about sequencing and uh then if you say well we're going to make an L2 where the L1 does the sequencing then like actually that kills the points to some degree right so there like there is uh like I think there are these sort of two different visions of L2s right where one vision of L2s is that an L2 is a shard of L1 and then or like I've used the word kind of branded shard before right um but then the other vision of an L2 is uh NL2 is like a server that uh uses the blockchain as a backend uh for uh ensuring like security and censorship resistance properties. I mean potentially even being able to run

mechanisms like changing the sequencer with governance if the sequencer goes wrong. Um then if you start from that perspective like the concept of trying to like turn L2s into B shards starts to make sense and like it makes more sense to take this kind of barbell approach of uh I mean like this side of things focuses on uh just being censorship resistant decentralized private offering fundamental guarantees and having enough capacity to do the stuff that needed for here and then this stuff focuses on hypers speed and hypers scale. Let's talk about I'm curious about quantum computing.

uh how big of a threat is it a normal timeline? H um so if you uh go to metaculus if you just like search metaculous quantum computing it's you know one of these uh forecasting uh websites the the median answer that you get is I think for when quantum computers powerful enough to uh break cryptography will come and it's like somewhere between 2030 and 2035 and uh like this is one of those things right where there's like people who are wrong in both directions right because there's a like there's a lot of grift in the quantum space right there's a lot of people who are like we have a quantum computer and then actually it's like something called a quantum adiabatic computer which is technically quantum but it like basically can't really do

anything that interesting that classical computers can do like it definitely can't break break cryptography and so uh the but at the same time there's like real and serious uh improvements that keep happening to the space. Um and so like the question when like when when someone asks about quantum computers the question you ask is like what is the biggest number that you factor using shor's algorithm right and uh like as long as the answer doesn't keeps not getting above 35 then it's like not super interesting but at the same time you know it's uh like there are slowly steps that are being taken um so it's important um in terms of like whether or not we'll be able to

adapt to it I think we will like I know like Justin Drake has been working on like quantum resistant uh aggregation friendly signatures. Uh I mean Starks of course are quantum resistant. Uh like there's a a huge amount of progress happening on quantum resisting everything. Uh so I'm actually very optimistic that Ethereum will be able to cover it. What do you think of Khan? How do you how do you like being down here in South France? That's uh it looks like a very nice place. Yeah. Have you been running? Not here. I've uh here I've uh only Yeah. walking so far.

Yeah, I I tried to go for a run the other day at like 6:00 a.m. and I I think I did 2 km. And are there any stop? I mean, are there any good paths here? I mean, the river I mean, the seaside is nice, but I mean, basically, I don't think there's any point of the day that comes below 28 degrees, so it's even Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think uh I feel like this whole zone is like much more of a January zone, right? Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming. Yeah, thank you guys. Thanks for doing this again. And actually, just one one thing I want to point out here. This episode makes you actually puts you in a tie with I mean Gunir for the number of center episodes.

He was already number one. No, he's he this is this is eighth. Okay. So, we can do we can do another one in a couple months. So, you can you can actually take the first place over Amy. Oh, fun. Okay, you keep it in mind. Cool. Thank you. Yeah.