The VC Investment Thesis for Modularity

Transcript

welcome to the rollup today's episode is with rain and coffee also known as mads from Maven 11 Maven 11 is a VC firm that has invested all across the board primarily in modularity interop and ZK Tech we are super stoked to have this conversation with r and coffee who has done extensive research on all of these verticals and personally my favorite a integrated piece of technology that brings all of these verticals together which he calls the global State layer I personally feel like this is kind of the Pinnacle for what blockchain user experience can reach and I am absolutely stoked to share this episode with you as we talk through the technical ins and outs of how this Global State layer could look as well as specific

conversation about each of these verticals on their own sit back relax and enjoy the first a word from our sponsors that help make all this possible [Music] cartey is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology cartei enables applications that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cars.io that's cy. to learn more about building your

own app chain today welcome back back to the rollup today we have a podcast with the hated VC's of the world the bane of crypto's existence and the reason why we're all going to zero apparently in the current zeit guest we've got rain and coffee from Maven 11 here with Rob Rob how does it feel to be in the presence of of of the hated VC cabal today it it almost feels like this is like a like a meeting in um in that Superman like Fortress of Solitude I think that's what it was called um and we're like uh we're like plotting the uh either the uh inevitable like Utopia or

dystopia of of crypto so I hopefully by the end of this we will figure out which one uh we'll end up with raining coffee it's a it's a pleasure man thanks for coming on you know obviously you're at Maven 11 Maven 11 is a a VC that has uh funded several uh several companies and crypto projects in the space absolute pleasure to have you on man thank you uh thank you for coming yeah thanks for uh for having me I maybe wouldn't describe myself as like uh the biggest VC in the world I'm on the the researching side but uh I have seen the hate we've gotten and uh some of it is not you know unfunded but I think that's also you know good defenses so why VC's make a lot of space lot of sense in the space yeah kind of could you unpack that just

just like why why do you think VCS are getting hate um 180 or so from um kind of like maybe the the internal crypto ethos of of uh Community um but VCS maybe some would call them a necessary evil if they are evil do do you think VCS are evil but like they're really a pretty integral part of this entire ecosystem so H how do you view kind of this this uh sentiment right now towards VCS do you think it's warranted I I get the point when you look at some of the sort of token allocations in some projects recently where obviously there's lots of inside is but sort of the defense to that is that these protocols wouldn't have the height nor

the tvl nor the El development that scene without the funding from from BCS um and like no company in the world um that has shareholders or even without shareholders are likely to give money to anybody without getting something in return um and most of the time many of these vs are self included have Especial as a preed seed fund I've been working with companies for two three four years uh I help to make them a success um I think the fact that we without VCS will be able to build a lot of stuff that that does exist in in Crypt at this point is probably quite small obviously we have the the great early V5 protocols the blue chips that sort of came out without any VC funding at all really uh but most of it has been built since then

particularly l1's l2s and much of the other stuff we've seen so far in crypto has not come without funding um most people just are not going to sit and build for two or three years without any sort of money either pay paid or neither are the people going to that are working for them um so I do think it is quote unquote like a necessary evil if you want to call it that we do see this in any like Web Two tech companies as well right most of them are funded by VCS um because you need money to build stuff and without money it's kind of difficult to to build a lot these things on the other hand though we are seeing like very cool sort of Grassroots developer stuff coming out of hackathons I think particularly in the model sector as well we're seeing a lot of very cool uh

developments and applications that are being opened up just because the fact that a lot of this stuff is now and free to use um and quite commoditized to that extent as well just a a quick question as far as like kind of kind of like looking at the history of the crypto market and how these projects have gotten funding in the past the the Ico boom of 2017 had a lot of problems associated with it and now we're in a bit of a different situation uh in the current ERA could you kind of like what what do you think why do you think like this time is different what was wrong about the 2017 era and and kind of like the Ico crowdfunding type of movement um and and why are we in a different scenario now yeah so often I

think with icos in particular there was no sort of back stop there was nobody to put checks and balances on the team receiving money right you could receive you know 50 to 100 million in e um and then who is actually you know making sure that things are going like they should be going are they hiring the right people are they doing the right things for the marketing are they you know getting work done or what whatnot with VCS you do kind of get those things you do have people that are paying close attention because they have a arested interest here um they might be on the board seed of that company or whatever so you do get more sort of checks and balances to ensure that things are being done correctly which does lead to more things actually coming out into the market with icos you kind of don't have

that at all right they just being given money quote unquote for free and then you're hoping that something will happen right so I would look at it like icos are similar to like a Kickstarter like you're giving more money at the hope that something eventually comes out of it uh while with a VC sort of helping to shape this thing and making sure that it actually becomes success with I show this giving money and then okay maybe five two three days down the line this becomes something uh I think the chances of success are much higher when you do have checks and balances and people helping you throughout the way um so it's a different way of doing funding and we we still we still have icoes funding things happening now we had the the pre-sale drama and Solana uh which I guess is another way of looking at it at

icos um I'm assume we'll see things like initial model offerings on like some of these AI protocols as well and that will probably be some similar similarities to what we had previously we had mints with NTS as well um so it's definitely something that will continue to happen just because of the way crypto is permissionless so you can do these things yeah yeah Nim network has launched their initial model offerings for their AI work which I think is pretty cool and yeah I mean I think like like Kobe's pioneering this Echo project which is seemingly trying to bring more syndicates involved so yeah I think like with every with every industry things kind of balance themselves out over time in the market people tend to find ways

to uh get opportunities and I think that we'll see more and more opportunities for uh like the average folk to invest early that's the big like like push back it's like oh we don't get the chance but it's also like you don't have the capital and like also like the accreditations and things and so you know I think that's more like the uh the problem the last thing that I want to ask you on this front um before we dive into some of the modularity conversation because I know that that you guys are big big modular Bulls like us um is what do you think about these like high high FTV low float launches versus like some of these lower ftvs a little more float launches for the potential of growth of

the token post launch as well as like forming a community post launch like from a builder perspective like are you are you viewing this as like maybe we should launch in one way is better or the other or like maybe we can just talk about like the pros and cons of these and kind of how you're seeing the market dynamics play out uh from some of your portfolio companies or um just in general yeah so the reason we have these like low flow type setups is because like the inside is are locked up um so in one way you could look at it's like a good thing obviously it looks weird when you have one market cap and then fdbs 10 times that um but that's because those are lock tokens um and that comes as a result of maybe that project having sold quite a lot to to VCS it because be

because they have a lot of tokens allocated to themselves and that is locked um and then you might have like staking rewards are likely going to be locked as well um I think in general that's just a result of the way you know funding is being happening now and the the amount of things that are locked up preferably um mean you do have this drop amount usually which most prob are launching out with air drops um or points into add drops and then you usually have like 17ish maybe 15 maybe 20% allocated to that um and that is sort of what you in the beginning will have unlocked um what you could do is I mean you could have way more liquidity incentives that are

unlocked on paper um but it it's been given out um but all of the sort of the VC funded tokens are locked up off for a very very long time so it's not like V are just you know dumping the tokens after the token launches most VCS and most prodcts I've ever seen you are locked up for for years at a time and then that vest this over time so it's in your best interest that the project develops and continues to develop over time um and you're not just you know going to to binance and then dumping everything as soon as a token launches um that is nobody's doing that um and that's why the the fdbs look the way they do yeah makes sense I know I said last one but second to last one do you think that the vessing schedules will uh extend from

like the typical I don't know like one to four years or two to four years to something more like three to seven years or four to seven years uh more akin to like a equity raise in in the traditional world still shorter I I think from my understanding but do you think that uh that's a way to kind of like level the playing field more or perhaps settle down the private Market froth where it's like okay if I get into early stage deals I'm pretty much G to get a return regardless because of tokens like this why crypto is like a crazy phenomenon in terms of like the liquidity event happening uh do you think that that we see these uh more um elongated investing schedules compared

to what we see now in in the future I I I mean it's a possibility I think what has to happen first is like two-sided one like relations have to come down because the risk associated with this is so much higher so you're no longer think thinking on maybe a four to five year time scale you might be thinking on a 7 to 10 year time scale so valuations would have to come down as a result of this which means you have to raise less money or dilute more so then you have even worse of these float like low float things because you you've raised even more money at a lower valuation and giving away more more percentage so that's obviously not not ideal um and I just think there's a lot more risk associated in crypto um especially whether that's smart contact risk for an

application or just the difficulty of sort of getting users which with a protocol um that kind of sort of ties all together um I think it could happen but I think then the web 3 VC Market was to get a lot more similar to the web2 BC market and that would also mean just the risk associated with it and also the devaluations as well and then that could turn even out even worse over time for sort of the low float things although those tokens are allowed lot for a lot lot longer but you're still going to see these weird charts where you know mag cab is this way and then you have 20x on on the FDB which I guess is not ideal either yeah that makes sense that makes sense if the risk is still much much

higher then extending the vesting doesn't really line up for kind of what people are going to be interested in investing in and then you kind of have the same problem where you have to dilute more and raise lower raise less money at a lower valuation and just kind of the yeah so interesting kind of dynamic pulling our out of uh the the behind the scenes of the uh crypto funding world and pulling us into the modular world uh you've got quite the modular haircut there rain and coffee I know that you've you've been a modular Bull since uh well before us so yeah maybe like just talk us through your your uh modularity kind of Journey how you kind of came about to this idea um and then let's dive into some of the of

the uh interesting topics that we have today yeah for sure um so it kind of starts at least the model Journey starts around three years ago um so I've really got into crypto back in 2013 um through Reddit and then Bitcoin Sal forums and then I spent a lot of time in China got to realized why I think blockchains and not just cryptocurrencies are important because the experiences I had there um eventually I sort of got into Alka do in 2019 2020 and I saw some of the things that I were doing that I think F were quite interesting and this is sort of precursor to that entire model sector we also saw B 2019 a lot of writing about rollups from metalic kilman fer one of these early

sort of ethereum scalability ogs and that kind of got me very interested because I I would look on Twitter back then and there was no writing for like the common man about what is St availability what is St availability matter for for vops um so I kind of took it upon myself because I've always been in love with L talking about crypto and explaining it to people um so I just started writing um and I think one of the first things I wrote about was I wrote a thread on Twitter about this is data availability this is why R up need it um and this is why it's not ideal I theum at the qent stage and why it's so expensive and not like the best way to serve data availability to a roll up um and by doing that um Matias who is one

of the partners at May 11 reach out to me on DMS and he was like it sounds like your thesis is kind of similar to us should be uh you know get go and talk um and we did and I uh joined M 11 this is early 2022 um so a little bit over two years ago um have been with the fund ever since um and we are sort of I guess known sort of for model involvement so we were the very first ticket in Celestia in early 2020 Matias reached out to Mustafa after having read his his PhD paper which was La leer now now celesa um and since then we've done a ton of Investments sort of in the modular sector as well uh namely asria uh Sovereign Labs I know you have both Gem and also Jos on here um so they're

also portfolio companies of ours um we also have investments in inability um CK me defi as well so I personally spent quite a bit of time that is quite broadly so I'm not you know an engineer or um super like I'm not sitting them writing code dayto day but I do look at at a very varied sort of verticals um and with that I do have to spend a lot of time just reading um whether that is white papers or what I do most of is like actual like academical research that I sit and write and read um and then you can sort of apply that to some of the the white papers you're seeing so most of the stuff I look at like pred seed so most of the ideas are you know haven't been built yet so is this actually possible to invest in will this

actually work when it comes out and how can I actually help this so I spent a lot of time helping uh our portfolio companies as well um so I probably have a broader view of the crypto space um so I can help our our companies a lot easier um some they're building a roll up or if they're thinking about me or things in that matter so you guys have this modular thesis and you've decided to invest a ton into modularity and very early and so you clearly kind of were Visionaries in this realm Rob I don't know if you had something along the lines of of the maio thesis but I was kind of thinking about what is the modular thesis to you guys like like what is modularity in Maven 11's View and why is this become something that you guys have put so much

capital and Firepower behind and um Rob I'm curious if if you kind of wanted to add to that as well well to to set the stage for that for that question you mentioned that you had some experiences in China that were kind of like eye opening in the sense of like realizing that blockchain applications and not only cryptocurrencies were going to be quite important in the coming years so I'm curious like what were those experiences that kind of like gave you that realization um and then ultim how did that lead you to the thesis uh that you have today yeah so yeah if you haven't lived in China it's a pretty aarian country still is today has been for a very long time so most of the sort of availability to you know go on the

internet and go to any web page you'd want to is unavailable for most people you have to use a VPN uh the banking system the bureaucratic nature of it the way it's set up is also very focused on not being very very viable um so it's it generally the the non lless aspect of living in a country like that um makes you have experiences where you're like oh you know blockchains and permissionless networks make a lot of sense while I think a lot of people don't have this personal experience that early on uh until it's too late or until it happens um I think you know living back in Denmark when I was young I never really had experiences that made me think okay you know blockchain crypto make a ton of sense to me right now because I was you know service pretty well by by the Danish government um I

think in China that is a less less of a thing and then more of a issue there um and the way I sort of got hyped about destri in general was particularly because of the nature of light nodes on Celestia so in my view like data availability sampling is the only way to like scale a blockchain without losing decentralization um it's actually the opposite so as you increase calization or the amount of nodes in a system so does the scalability with the amount of data that you can sample um and that kind of spoke to me because you know more nodes more people being a of a network higher scale ability um and then just the way that data availability to me is sort of the last basion of Truth so if you have the data that a rollup or

an application has sent to a DAT availability layer you can reconstruct everything else that has happened and verifies that that has happened is true or not so for me it's s the last Bion of of of um of Truth and for that I think data availability is quite important and then beyond that I just think a lot of the application now on generalizable Smart contract chains like an ethereum or optimism are giving away a lot of uh Powers I think this is particularly related to me there's a lot of me that you just cannot capture AS application on on a smart contract that is PL from that generalizable um because you just don't control ordering there's also just skillability issues so you're you're sharing your block space with thousands

of other applications um so for me there's things that model fixed in that sense there's issues that it brings with it and I think there's ways to fix those issues and we are working on these issues being fix fixed but it's definitely going to be a I think that on a longer time Horizon but I think the end game of what modity brings brings way more customizability to app developer and I would like to assume that people don't want to give up control they want to you know keep their control um and hopefully in future also be composable with others uh having the same idea very cool to hear that uh that story and why verifiability is so important and then how modularity helps to scale verifiability I tend to think

that's I tend to agree that's one of the core components of blockchain Technology um and so and so kind of like unpack this for us I I think I think all of us agree like the the highly customizable uh especially when it leads to more scale this is what is empowering some of these newest applications and newest infrastructure um to to kind of give birth to these new applications could you kind of like elucidate like on this modular stack as you see it and then we can talk about some of the customizations that can happen at each level of the stack yeah for sure so I think generally the way people explain it they us take like data availability consensus settlement and execution I would like to unpack that a little bit probably I think what you can say is

that yes you will always have execution and within that you have what's really important things like ordering what VM that you use and and so on and then on settlement settlement is a weird way to describe it I would generally say there's two ways to describe settlement one is sort of C resistance of dispute resolution which is a quite a marful um and that is like thought proofs so verifying thought proofs verifying ckps so the ability to do that with pretty high guarantees of security ethereum is perfect for this um just because the amount of nodes in the system that are verifying these things are being sent and verified uh and then the other one is liquidity so like a s can be a home world if you may for

liquidity that can flow between things that are living on top of it um so all Nate like native L1 assets on rollup so all eth and all most usdc usdc e for optimism lives on dl1 um obviously you can mint stuff on dl2 um but that stuff is in the case of rollup going down you can't like exec draw this or force with draw it down to the L one so you do have that safety hatch with like native L1 assets so if you wanted you know pure um sort of roll up that don't use any L2 assets you you'd want to do that way and you sort of gain the security there if you want to if you get censored you want you want to leave uh and then the last one is sort of data availability and

that's sort of what secures all these layers um because they prove that the data has been sent and made available and H this is pretty easy to verify you just have a light node running you cury these name St mle trees that have all the data save for specific roll up and then you could could create any tree and and any node in that tree and you canate the G data for that um how like Celestia differentiates here a bit is that it also has consensus on this data availability uh and has it very often with 12 every 12 seconds um you get sort of deterministic um view of what has been sent um which is quite powerful and you also have an ordering of how this looks um this is a little bit different on on things like I da um there's no ordering on data availability here I

would like to assume or like think that the consensus on on the data is is pretty important but I know other people have have other views and might not care about that but it really depends on your goose case at the end of the day yeah awesome want to double click on the execution stack you mentioned there's quite a bit of room for customization there in terms of ordering me which VM that you kind of choose and I'm curious this execution stack is this part of the stack play a big part in this kind of like app should become chains infrastructure conversation like is it this level of ordering and kind of sovereignty and and me capture that is like the core reasoning behind your your thesis of like why apps should become infrastructure or is it kind of broader

than that let's kind of dive into that a little bit yeah for sure I think what people that are just token holders would say is that you know if applications become infrastructure they can probably AC high evaluations right that's one aspect of it it's not the reason why I like it but the reason I like it is that are you sure that there isn't I mean if if your if your making uh if if your only go is making shareholders happy that's what your view would be but I do think there's reasons why you like to choose it beyond that of course that's otherwise I wouldn't say that fuel achieves Higher throughput by utilizing a novel utxo based approach that allows for parallelized execution this design significantly accelerates transaction processing which enables fuel to handle

vastly more transactions than nonp parallelized system system thanks to advancements introduced by Fuel ethereum rollups are set to be more powerful than ever before and fuel is not just enhancing ethereum rollups it's redefining them making them faster more scalable and more adaptable to meet the needs of modern applications and developers go to fuel. network that's fuel. Network to learn how to build on the rollup OS but the way I look at is that if you are specifically def protocols the way you can monetize on like a general smart contract chain is very inefficient uh and the reason I think the best example

of this is is unis swap like Unis swap creates a ton of Meed that EPs and flows through Unis swap but the actual LPS nor the token holders don't capture any of that it ends up in the hands of the surgers that are extracting value and then they're tipping the proposers validators to get on chain so the validator is actually getting the most of of of the profits here but I'm I'm just got go on the Lim I'm going to say that most etherum validators are not necessarily unisoft token holders um so it doesn't really like you know get back to it that way it just get captured by by the proposes um while in a perfect world you know unisoft token holders and unisoft team and Foundation would probably want that me to actually be captured by the appication itself that's

not the case now um there's even that one tweet by Hayden where he's complaining that you know you shouldn't be add dropping to Celestia stakers or ethereum stakers so what Val unisoft hold is because they're getting extracted from at the expense of others um I I do agree to that to some extent so M like it was one expect um and the ordering is of what give you that power because you are as an application that control controls the sequencer you are the proposer you decide what gets on chain you build the blocks so you can make rules here to do very cool things we can touch about that later if you want to um but you can also extract the priority fee securely like rollups like is just first come first in first com fifo um and you can't really extract any here it's based on like latency and more

similar to like web web 2 Trading or try trading um what you can do is like you say okay if you're going to be extracting value you pay priority fee so that's what happens with meth boost on ethereum and then since you the application controlling what it puts in a block you can extract that fee give it back to LPS maybe if you are like a XM um and that's one way to do it I think the other aspect of it is also like customization of the way your your VM is set up for example so maybe you want different gas costs for different up codes that could be an up code that updates an order book you you want that to be expensive you want that to be cheap um so a d extra can play around with with the VM in that case um we see

that but like hyper liquid with AO and these make a lot of sense now because liquidity in these like perf exchanges is more statment it doesn't have to move around it can just sit on Smart contracts on other chains um you could even you know change our VM to fit whatever you're doing maybe you want to use a CEO VM for salana maybe you want to move VM because you find it more secure and you want to build like secure um like environment for for funds to Deo to defi with um so like a movement for it for example um you could even do CK things so and that the not to get to get too technical like an ethereum has like certain things you can verify on it certain types of CK proofs and schemes however there are other schemes

that you can't verify or you can't run because the gas cost are verifying them is too high well then you can make changes to allow for this um and you could do that on a rollup as well um so there's quite a lot of sort of customization and specialization that you can get around to um I think ordering is probably the one that matters the most for like defa applications especially if you're in a de or an amm and just like the the free asyo box bace that would be less expensive I think next will will get into the mechanics of different order ordering mechanisms and like kind of like the tradeoffs there with shared sequencers different ordering structures I am curious before we dig into that there's a movie called dumb money and it's all about like this like meme stock Wall Street bet era of uh 2020 um and

and it kind of traces like the Robin Hood uh GameStop type of like Arc that that happened when it had that huge run up and and it really highlights in like this very like uh like for the normies kind of way it highlights payment for order flow and the way that Robin Hood was offering free trades to their customers so all their customers were very happy they could buy these meme stocks for free but they were getting they were traded at a they were getting uh they were at a disadvantage we want to make sure that we're not recreating a bad system and so that that system where Robin Hood was secretly passing this order flow and putting their customers at a disadvantage I think is very ideologically flawed I think people would probably agree with that so so I'm

curious like this this mechanis M that we have on chain now where proposers are getting tips by The Searchers and the Searchers are basically passing that order flow are we recreating a flawed system that's the general question I agree with you to some extent on on ethereum right so on ethereum now Bea build um we don't have to get into who those people are but they build 50% of all the blocks um they're also running Searchers so they are trading against the order flow that they're getting whether that is from anybody s selling it permission l or somebody selling it to them um and then they can trade on that so it is very much happening the only Builder and there only really three active Builders now fre build aryn and

then Titan Titan is the only Builder not trading against um the order for they're getting um and they're only responsible for like 20% of all blocks uh which is obviously a pretty big issue um so we are seeing these things that we have seen in chfire also happen here um I do think there's ways to sort of go around this um and that is the fact that you could do highways within a block so the Searchers that are extracting value well okay we can put them at the top of the block and they can you know front run and do the Arbitrage things that they have to do or if they want to be at the bottom to back run we can allow that as well so you got have like three parts of a block top of the block bottom of the block and then everything else if you

want to be put in the top or the bottom well one thing could be you could be a whit listed searcher so if you are in these two highways well then you should pay a higher fee because you are essentially extracting value so instead of paying you know 0.1% uh fee to a liquidity pool that let's assume this is like an application that application rollup that is a de amm well then if you're dose too high wage you should maybe pay 0.5% or 1% and that should be redistributed back to your LPS understand the surgers are making money but they're also compensating um the LPS that they're ing from I think that is a very cool way to go around this and a sort of a way to still allow these meth games to be played and and meth is in

theory is most is good right Arbitrage is providing better pricing for for users because there's inefficiencies between that and other venues and liquidation is also important for allowing lending protocols to to exist so I think that's kind of a a way to look at it so we have app Builders wanting to go and launch app chains and then they have these intricate ways in which they can actually uh control their order flow and their transaction ordering and kind of dominate this me there's like community members like Rob who are like Wait no that's not fair you guys can't just internalize all of that revenue and kind of trade against their users so then there's there's these kind of like diplomatic ways in which we can

Implement more fair transaction ordering models do you see this as an evolution where it's like we're still kind of early to this app chaina idea maybe this isn't really common knowledge but over time as team start to internalize more sequence of Revenue like this this kind of trend accelerates then this problem might come to light um which could then even further maybe leading to this whole thesis potentially of like just from a revenue perspective maybe not necessarily being as like strong as we originally had thought if we kind of get to this less me capture kind of a a packed question but like where are we in this cycle of me capture for in terms of awareness and teams and is this going to

also be you know kind of a Ras to the bottom in terms of sequencer fees ordering and and kind of Mev capture I think we're very early on I think a lot of people realize this Hayden certainly does from Unis swap I think we we're seeing the very early aspects of this and it's just because of the the availability of the what you actually do with infrastructure now that only makes this possible so what we're seeing is particularly professional exchanges uh these exchanges are making their own rollups their own in structure and are you know making these different ordering rules and are extracting M and so on and so forth um they can do that because of the fact that the liquidity just sort of stacked in and lives on on like roll up or or ethereum or whatever I do think a lot of people are aware of this but the

issue is that you do want to do this on like a a DEX amm and and here I'm specifically referring to an AM that has like liquidity pools you always need to exract that liquidity first and most of that liquidity at this point lives on these you liable chains um so you can't make Atomic calls to this um because the the liquid is living there you have to attract it first so that's like one issue I think we're very early there I think there are way to sort of do these sucin Global State layers um or even like a Shad sequence setup where you can do these things a lot easier and it's less of an issue having this liquidity fragmentation um so I think we're still quite early on this but I definitely see people becoming more aware of these things being possible um and sort of

looking at ways ways they could do this with even a maker for for example so I think we're going to see this sort of happen slowly but surely and we'll see people sort of experiment with this um one thing you could do actually if you don't have like LPS let's say you just have like an auto book um you could also write this into like a sequence a rule um for how a block should be built um or you could even do even also with LPS for example or even without LPS you could do these um rules where you have like okay you can only do Buy sell Buy sell buy sell um and you can only do sell sell or buy buy if the price at that point is better than at the beginning of the block or if there's no trades in the

opposite direction as what you do with that is you say okay nobody is taking advantage of of me and getting a better price um so that's like a very cool way of doing it um because you're not moving the price of anybody else so you're not you know nobody's using you to extract value I do think that's a cool way to do things like this uh and I could definitely see that happening and you could write this into like the the seing sequence rules for your your roll up um that's like one way to do it I think these things will will start we seeing research on it now this a great paper on this in particular by a guy called Ferrera that goes into some of these credibly like Fair ordering um but you can already build this with a rollup if you want to inherit security so yeah I

could go build this as like run a singular node of chain and like do execute these things before they hit ethereum and bundle them together but I'm not really inheriting any security and that's sort of what you get from from building a road that you can inherit some security or inherit some liquidity um while doing these cool things there's a really interesting phrase I heard you say then which was that the the succinct Global State layer and to me this idea of a global State layer sounds like one blockchain to rule them all which I think is very is very ironic to hear you you put it that way and then also have this modular thesis that that we talked about in the beginning of the of the conversation so I'm curious like first of all just principles what is this succinct Global

State layer and then how do you balance this with kind of like the modular components that we talked about in in the beginning of this conversation yeah so the way I look at it is that it's kind of a mixture of modularity plus monolithic ideas some people have called it like integrated I guess that's the way to put it but I I hate coming up with new words to describe these things I would just say it's mixing modularity with monolithic the idea is to have like a very succinct maybe even without like consensus that just provides settlement abilities for like uh ckps for example um and also data availability for example that could be one thing so you have this onein very efficient uh Global State layer that has state for that could be like State differences or it

could just be raw transaction list s from rollup it has all of this um and and holds all of this um for all of these rollups on top of it so this is sort of where it becomes monolithic to to model right so while ethereum is like a global State layer you have Atomic composability between smart contract within ethereum and the same goes for like things on top of up but it doesn't have that with with e things on ethereum so the idea of this essentially is to have this very succinct very efficient um what Mina used to call itself they used to call like a succinct State layer um where you have these ckps that verify things being chose or not so what you could do is that you can have this snc St essentially operat as like a ledger for all these RS on top of it so you got

have let's say 15 different v-ups got Sil execution environments the their own sequencer um but the magic here is that they can become very efficient at communicating with each other so currently if I want to if I'm on optimism and I want to go to arbitrum and I want to go the the native way I have to wait seven days for like withrawal periods for example which is obviously very inefficient um or I can go through like in intent um wiing protocol where somebody's fronting me this money and they'll take that risk and take a small fee the issue is that you can't do atomic like smart contract interactions between those things like intent Sol can't fix that problem um they will never be able to communicate automically because they're not with the

same block or the same state um so what you do have is this sort of to sync Global State L is that you'll have 10 15 rocks maybe even more um and then you introduce like a special actor these are all siloed execution environments but they're all sending their State updates to an underlying layer um and they're sending likely like a ckp to verify that execution has been done correctly uh on D State differ um so what you introduce is an actor called a composer so Astria has this um in their Shar SQ setup and more people are coming to to sort of know about this sort of type of actor and this actor essentially simulates cross domain transactions or cross roll up sort of interactions um so this means you could

have Atomic composability while having a siloed execution environment so imagine 10 different amm and Dex list and yield aggregators lending protocols all controlling their own environment controlling they're all ordering extracting me but when they want to make Atomic calls which a lot of applications do on there today like a lot of these defi build is Lego block on top of each other and they have to do atomic calls to each other or they they stop working um if you could do that but also control your own ordering that is kind of powerful uh because you could have your own rules about you know your VM um and the way you want to handle Meed while still being atly composable with other applications and this could even extend to like okay some people in the US might

not want to have their funds commingled with other regulatory areas that could be like Sexes maybe you have like binance roll up crypto.com roll up nox roll up and while you can still like atomically go between them um they wouldn't have kinkling of funds unless the S to be um so I think that's the way to look at it so it's sort of a mixture of modularity with monolithic in a way it's like ethereum maybe 15 years from now like these are sort of the ideas that metalican and the rest of the ethereum foundation are thinking about things it just takes very long with the technical baggage that like an ethereum has to actually build these things sounds like the a layer yeah so a veil uh and even polygon are sort of

exploring these things as well um you could kind of think that Nexus of a veil is kind of the Astria that that Celestia has obviously you know Astria is not built by the Celestia team while Nexus on a veil is um and these are essentially just like integrated layers that provide Global State and like Atomic compossibility for these Sil execution environments and then you can like introduce solvers and intents into this world as well where like okay I am using some you know universal front end and I just want some outcome well then a solver goes through any of these rollups that areally composable and does that for me that could be one pool that's more efficient pricing than than one other one on a different rollup that's sort of the end game I think for for Veil and and a from polygon and also

sort of what has sort of become with asria for example you are sort of a settlement layer for intense to some extent so then Bridges as we know them today just kind of become they might either just be obfuscated in the background for other use cases but it seems like due to the lack extensibility of the common bridges that we know today in terms of being able to to be present on you know thousands of app chains it seems like some of these Nexus Astria shed sequencer even like hyperlane kind of models uh proof I I proof aggregation models um like Union um polymer and kind of some of these models are going to be a bit more uh flexible and realistic for like this

absolute extensible scale of of chains versus like the traditional Bridge model yeah often these like cross communication protocols like Bridges the issues they often have is that the execution is asynchronous um so I'm dealing with two blockchains that have different uh block times so that could be an ethereum with like 12 seconds and that's only like a subcommittee of the one million validators that I actually said yesterday so the degree of security is not that high that's why we have these confirmation times if we wait for these things to to happen like with a secp verification time being like you want to probably wait like 12 minutes to ensure that it's not getting reworked um so the issue is sort of with these things and and the bridges of that we have currently is sort of you're dealing

with asynchronous things um if you can make these things synchronous particularly just for like cross the main things that does make a thing things a lot easier what I still would say here is that You' arguably still want standards for how cross communication should be done um so something like an IPC makes a lot of sense because you have standards for how messages are bridged across and you have standards for how this is verified as well um so that's probably a good way we have no standards really today every single Crush measuring protocol has their own standard I think we're seeing IPC sort of Take the Lead a bit here because we already have a pretty safe messaging standard here we have things we can do within IBC like I interchain queries we have interchain

accounts and these things allow us in very cool things uh we'll probably see like initiate accounts on celest as well and you can start to do some very interesting things if we get CK support here as well um I think I don't think bridges are dead in like AIC Global State layer setup maybe standards Will Will Spring out more um but there might still be things that you want to do right and I don't think like maybe the end game is that we have one Global state to rule them all um that seems unlikely though just because of how the world works right if that was the case we would have you know NATO of the UN control the entire world and that's just the way things would work that's not the way things are played out we're all very different um but maybe we'll have a few

of these types of theups that could be a possibility yeah we would have our we'd have our troops over there at your front door for being a bad VC that could be a that could be a problem I know I know the US have uh you know extended their reach at times now navigating multiple blockchains can be complex and cumbersome let's say you want to deposit into a lending Market on polygon because they have the best rates but you only have funds on optimism so you bridge your funds to polygon only to realize that you need madic to pay for gas maybe use a centralized exchange or you ask a friend to pay for the gas but only then can you finish your transaction in a chain abstracted future powered by connects this is not the situation you can connect your wallet to

any dap from any chain with all the complexities of swapping bridging and depositing all completely abstracted behind the scenes head over to connect. network that's connect. Network to learn more about connect chain abstraction [Music] toolkit with these chains that are plugged into you know this let's call it a global State layer um like there's still the risk of reorg right um and so some of these Bridges have been able to solve that by like fronting capital and they and and therefore the solver is the one that the one who fronts the

capitalist taking on that reorg risk in in this like synchronous case of of interrupt is who's taking that reorg risk is it the composer you're R in the nose so the composer exists to ensure that there's no double spending of State obviously you could have like a a a channel a communication Channel between the two of them um and they have consensus between that's the way IC Works IC is not like Atomic and they sort of come to agreement they have their own like Valor sites and they all they run light know each other and they that's s of the proof that they need the composer in this case sort of fronts that risk and they assure that you're not double spending State on these two rups that are being inable with each other um that's the way I I would look at it and then you sort of get away from

from VOR risks as well um this composer is likely going to have to be running um in likelihood like full notes on use of these rollups which is obviously a pretty intensive task so you to be very specialized to to do this um to ensure that I've actually executed these things and put them in a block um and not double spent the state or or whatever they might have done you could get around this by doing things like storage proofs um so you could prove that you know this particular transaction or SP contct interaction has been put into a storage slot um in the the global state tree and you could verify that with ckps so something like uh like like granch for example or or an aium or or many others you could do that that kind of

setup um that's one way to get around that but you are putting a lot of trust in this actor that's for sure um and it it will be a specialized actor just like Builders are specialized actors today on on ethereum for example could you kind of like highlight what again like what is LR what would what role would lrange or or someone who does these like because there was a lot there and and I think that is kind of the Crux of like why we don't see like these shared State Global State layers now is because it's very difficult to manage like State on more from more than one siloed environment and so we have like we have all of these modular Sovereign uh rollups that are all kind of like existing in their own app chain world

but then we're going to take the state of of each of these chains and we're going to combine States from multiple chains into one Global state so we've heard ishmail from L Grange talk about these State committees we've heard like like we we heard you say State roots or State uh storage proofs how do we kind of like how do we understand that what is what is a state committee what is a storage proof how do we co correlate or corroborate all of these states into one Global State yeah so the issue with state is that it grows very quickly so ethereum state grows very quickly soana States grows even quicker so it puts a lot of pressure on the hardware and the the validators of these chains um and if

you want to increase you know the state amount of compute under state do you grow you have to increase the hardware requirements and that's you then you lose the sensorization and that's the entire sort of debate that is happening on ethereum right should we lower our valuator set and then increase the hardare requirements so we can have less validators less people check in the chain but increase the amount of transactions we can put out per second or the amount of compute we can have um per per block for example um toana takes the other side of that coin um so in theory if we have you know a th different chains like imagine their amount of State no single like SSD could probably run this um and like one of the things that you can do with like State and like what a mega e is doing on like

a Mona is they're like optimizing these databases and they're keeping all like execution state so this is like state that is actively being dealt with like on SSD in memory and that makes it a lot more efficient to do things um and then you have like Old State that you archive and you have these archive nodes and like the security assumptions there are pretty safe it's like a one andn as long as one person holds all this archival state it's pretty safe um but if you want to interrupt between these different um chains well either we have one actor that runs like a full node on all of these that's pretty inefficient um and it's pretty costly so you if these have like very high scale change the Hardway is cranked up and then

you're running pretty extensive Hardware this Hardware might not even be regularly available you might be like a bare metal setup that any normal person would have like access to either because of funds or because you know normal hardware stores don't sell this um so one thing you can do and this is sort of where these storage proofs comes in is that you could have what like Gran does for example they have these uh State committees which are taking this job of running uh full nodes on all these different chains and then they are taking uh what they call BLS signatures so these are signatures on each block from the leader or the set of validators are assigning onto this blot and then you can aggregate these together um and then you can essentially when you're

running a full onun you have the the storage you have the the state that constitutes all the information about you know what people are doing and you can s prove that you have the signature of these value signed on so this is true um what you can then do is you can introduce like what like one called Rec proofs there like aggregated proofs that you can continuously build together and you don't have to recompete everything because you already have part of the the state so you have to run all the state through a CK circuit again which is extremely expensive and extremely hard to do um so you can sort of aggregate all these blocks together update this proof every time and you then have a proof of this state existing um and because of mathematics and like crypto cryptography we know this is true um so

then you can provide the storage proofs and say okay this uh sequencer this of this rollup or these five sequence of this rollup assigned onto this this is in a block it's been executed we can see that right here um what likeon say it's a step further they do like an AVS type setup where they have cryptocom Security on this that can then get slashed if they act dishonestly um so the way to think of it is like storage proofs can take away the trust assumption that we put in like a single actor like this composer because if we didn't have like CK here you're trusting this composer that they are your best interest in mind and like there's game theoretic reasons for why this is true um and they wouldn't act against it because it's the best interest to continuously be a part

of this protocol you can also do like optimistic things but as you know with like optimistic setups the wait times are quite long so you can't really finalize things that well unless you trust them completely uh which is like the RO of like a relay and meth boost on on ethereum um and sorry for the rant but it's kind of the way to to look at it yeah no this is this is awesome because this is kind of like the end game that I think is where a lot of these different verticals converge it's where interop meets ZK meets intense meets modularity and and so this ultimately provides the best ux it's just a matter of getting there and so I just want to make sure that we all kind of like understand like this this uh architecture of this endgame because you mentioned that we have like this one

kind of like rudimentary possibility where one operator can run nodes across all these networks full nodes across all these networks but we have to trust that operator and then they basically have complete control and we can B we all we can do is basically trust them an alternative is that instead we construct a state committee made up of these independent validator sets and so therefore we don't need to trust a single operator to run a full node on each of these networks we can just say that the the the rollups have their own independent validator sets and then we aggregate these BLS signatures that each of these validator sets sign off on it was completely correct about one thing the state committees would not be the secrets as themselves it would be uh operators

running like a full node on all of these different um sequence of rollups or chains and then they would be able to see the signatures have been committed to this and they signed on to this transaction in this particular block um so you would have sort of you wouldn't have the validator themselves uh because then you might get some very tricky sort of uh dishonesty that could happen here uh but it would be like operators that can run full nodes um so even on rups like you can run a full node like alism is actually one of the easiest places to probably run a full node because there's like constant updates happening there um so that would be the the ble of that state committee it wouldn't be the sequences themselves although you could argue that this could be a good idea as well if they put up a certain amount of

stake but the general idea is that it we just like an operator like a figment or or a Kil or many of The Operators we see that are validators in in the customers ecosystem and and what is why might lrange or like why why might how would a slashing event occur like what might trigger one of those events that that would trigger a slash of one of these operators that could be because some one of these operators that are running these full nodes have essentially committed so that's why data availability is important and we everything comes back to availability at some point let's say they have committed stun data or some committed by the sequencer what the full note is saying that the output is

actually different from what the data availability shows um and they have then constructed a proof on this their own data they have they have you know done this honestly and then has has sent that in so this proof is based on something completely different and maybe you know gives them money to their address um that they have one Whatever chain it might be that would obviously to prove that because that's why like abil is to important to SEC proofs as well um because it it proves that the SEC proof is actually correct um so sling could be that different DS been committed that and that da proves something completely different that what actually been uh given by this State committee operator um so that's how a like a slashing event

could happen and then that that operator would would likely get slashed yeah it makes sense there's this it comes back to the original point of kind of the state reor problem and that's a catastrophic problem and whatever we can do to kind of disincentivize people to participate in a system which leads to that problem is a necessary step to take as we're kind of discussing this I I can't help but think that there's many uh ZK providers working on this kind of single global State there's many data availability layers trying to provide a last Bastion of Truth um there's there's multiple shared sequencers trying to create this synchronous composability whereas I think when you first started some of your research that there was

really like Celestia and like you know maybe Astria and maybe espresso and and a couple other teams but now we've kind of got this competitive landscape in the modular in the modular world and I kind of want to dive into this concept that that you wrote about about commoditizing your compliments where it's no longer just you know you can pick one provider for each part of the stack it's like there's now a selection of providers and and and we see teams kind of positioning against each other um and so yeah like let's let's dive into this idea from Joel sposi originally brought to light I think back about 20 years ago where um we we have this idea where basically the the the goal is to increase Innovation

and profitability in a sector um by commoditizing the complement of your of your um product so you know in in as's case we have uh them being a shared sequencer they're kind of commoditizing Gras um and so we we can kind of dive more into this why don't we start with with your uh here as to um why this is going to happen in the modular space and then talk more about um some of specific examples yeah so the way I look at is that in an end game where like narrative and BD isn't what matters like only what matters but the actual prices of the things that you utilize to build your

product matters so in like web 2 the market is way more efficient right usually if I'm providing a cheaper product I'm likely to get more demand like that's just a rule that exists is if if it's cheaper I'm going to get the more demand in crypto this is not the case um otherwise you know ethereum wouldn't be the sort of the the settlement lay to rule them all at this point um so the idea is that in a world where the crypto and blockchain Community is way more mature you will it will be more important to lower the cost of the things that you're utilizing um so what you can start to commoditize you could take asri as like an example um da is obviously important it's important for all rollups um so you us the cheapest da is obviously pretty

important there's a c to that because it is security related so you probably want you know deterministic da you probably want relatively slow block times comes with that determinism um and you probably want um the scalability of this to be able to grow so that's like where B comes in for example um with with asria what they're also trying to commoditize is likely going to be um like running a sequencer and like proposing stuff here um and one of the aspects of that is that if you can lower the cost of sequencing and lower the cost of launching a new rollup you can kind of out compete like roll up as a service provid um because their cost is going to be much larger and this ties into like agregation Theory a little bit um

because it's much easier for asria to monetize rollups because all the rollups are going through their Shar sequencer um and all the equility sort of livs within that Shar sequencing set up um so what you kind of see with like a rest provider they will have some cost associated with it and they they'll probably take some overhead um because they have to S of run these they have to run infrastructure or contract somebody to run the infrastructure or hope that the the customer themselves can run it and obviously they can probably provide like more white plus services so there are like specific use cases where you probably want to go to like an actual rest provider but the idea with as is that you could probably get to the lowest cost of running running any rollup by going through this um so if I'm going to launch a rollup and I just

want the cheapest way to do it and I would like to communicate with a bunch of other applications that might have the quity of uses that I want a vampire attack or I want to take into then like going to like a share secrets that makes a ton of sense um and it also makes a easier for for that sh to monetize you can kind of view it as bit as like visa to some extent like the margins that Visa take are quite small but Visa is running you know for a lot of different Merchants they're running for millions and millions and millions of people so even though the margins are small the amount of volume that goes through it makes this margin worth it um and you can sort of look at a sh you could to some extent like this is that they can

service many many many v-ups H the reason they have to be lazy because if they were running in a full notes stuff they W earlier the cost of this would be enormous and You' just become a single chain like a custom H so security asria and and the example from the RAS perspective um which and I think that that the Visa example in terms of volumes is super applicable as well let's zoom out from from just Ras and Sh sequencing and let's build a a a app as a rollup um and discuss each part kind of where you see uh this commone ation of compliments um going so you know we've got things like rpcs and uh composers shared sequencers da layers um

uh VMS so you know as we're building as an application Builder is building a rollup to try to get the best ux possible we're we're getting this this all these options of Outsourcing and plugging in all these different pieces uh to build your rollup which you kind of mentioned ends up in like this like API economy of web 2 bringing over to web 3 so let's talk about each kind of part as to how you kind of think about the commone tization or the the kind of commoditizing your compliment strategy at kind of each part in the stack as you're building a rollup yeah I think as a rollup AS application developer you kind of start out with okay what kind of security do I want to inherit um do I

want like shared security do I want some operator with some cryptoeconomic security behind it to also be a part of my application infrastructure actually run like a full node from me and and verify these things so that could be like like something like ID layer the the problem here is that you probably have to pay some inflation or you have to give away part of your fees um to make the operators and rakers that of giving you cryptoconomy security happy I don't think that's scalable for most applications so what you're like going to want to do is go with a d layer so take your pick uh a d layer that is you're just paying a DA fee too that you know you're paying for because they're putting this into a block so you're paying some exraction fee so the first is to pick ler uh there's going to be a

lot more choices right now the only real choice I'd say is is Celestia um and and also theum at this point with like post 4844 the costs are going down here quite a bit but then you come into like the quality of this da um and is that scalable for it for for and long ter in terms of how many blobs are available and need to become some changes here and this could become a problem as we grow the amount of rollups um so yeah you pick a d layer um and these are starting to become commoditized even so some people would say they are not um um there's aspects of of like the quality of it that you can get into but generally um you could say that become customized the next area is like okay I probably need to pick like an SDK um

because I I need to build my rollup I need to build the things that are important for a rollup State transition functions VMS and so on so forth we're seeing a ton of different sdks um we're seeing you know Sovereign Labs there's the Customs SDK op stack uh hyper change I think they're called from CK sync um and and many more roll kit roll chains there there you know there so many of these different s Cas you could utilize um these all have tradeoffs as well some of them most of them are going to be free um but maybe they're expecting you to utilize one aspect of of their thing so like with an OP stack if you're choosing that you're likely do doing it because you want to be close to a base on optimism and you want to be a part of that super Shane idea um so that is one

thing that you you could do when you're choosing SDK maybe you want some SDK because it's more performant with there DB um and like paralyzable merization changes um that get you closer to like something like a monad um so that could be one you could make um then you also get into okay I've now picked myk I've picked my BM these are all like comms they're free um maybe I need some ck aspect so you like okay I might go utilize ckvm most of them are free they're pretty much all free um but there are funnels as I've talked about later earlier into sort of things like like a buai like a proving maret um so these are like the aspect you go all over um and maybe you don't want to run all this stuff yourself maybe you don't

want to decentralize your sequence set yourself but you need to orchestrate um infrastructure providers you'll probably pick like a Shar sequence if that's what you want and you want to be composable other things but if you're like application has a lot of uses you know dependent on liquidity or you can just do your own thing you as required to do that that is an option um and you have funding to like orchestrate the in providers they know necess need to go to share sequence um then I think that's the most interesting aspect of this is like how do you think about me right are you making changes on like a block level on a sequence level or you saying oh I want to Outsource this so what we talked about earlier with ordering an MV you also say Okay I want to Outsource this and I okay I want to go to a Suave and

on Suave I can have you know different types of auctions for mware transactions and I can have you know searches and specialized Builders build these blocks for me I don't have to think about it at all but I can probably get some Kickback from M profits um so that's one way to think about it and I'm probably just paying a small fee um and then there's also RPC providers right or I think most of the time what we seen with most applications that they'll use like some centralized IPC provider there's some cost associated with this some subscription fee um what we are likely to see and what's you know happening slowly but surely with with lava Po and a bunch of other that they're building the sort of sens like Network where you can pay with like a token OB there's

some open-ended questions says that okay what if the the price appreciation of that token goes up so much but the the the amount of tokens I have to pay is the same then you know the prices can be going around quite a bit but if it's just stack in the usdc value that also becomes quite interesting and they'll probably be competing on this so as we sort of try to commoditize aspects getting to the end point here everybody will be competing against each other to provide the best quality at the lowest cost um because they want users at the end of the day and that's sort of what we seeing in web 2 and sort of tech startups is that you have all these API economies that you can tck into and generally they're all competing to F the best product at the lowest cost um I

think we're starting to see this in crypto I think modularity sort of accelerates this um for the users too and for usage as well at the end of the day this is our thesis like I just wrote a tweet about this today and and um people ask like which part of the stack is going to crew the most value and frankly the way that you describe it it's like everything is going to be like kind of commoditized as low as cheap as more as as efficient as possible so it's it's not like necessarily and maybe you have a thesis on this but it's not like Celestia necessarily May ever be like this extremely profitable Revenue generating machine like a salana does from me for example or like a a like um I don't know like a traditional business

but if Celestia can provide Builders with this with a tool that will give them a much cheaper use experience and a better experience then that end product can be worth so much more and be adopted at such a faster scale uh and end up kind of like the way that I think about is like okay where are all these hit apps that I think are going to come out of this modular stack built upon well they're built upon lava Celestia espresso etc etc and so um the our kind of thesis I would love to talk on I would love to talk on that actually I think hitting it right on the nose here um especially on M right so where leadership election happens in the stack

which is execution layers right so the role UPS the apps that control it ordering they essentially extract all of the real value if everything is commoditized every G cost is super low compute cost is super low maybe because of like GPU networks or whatever then the real Val the real value comes from M and the value that that creates and if you can expectra that M which happens on a lead elction area which is generally EX layer unless you do look at based rollups and then you'll give away your m to the DA layer consensus layer but I don't think any application will alignment baby n come on and that's the other aspect of it right the Leer even though the layers could become commoditized and super

cheap and the amount of fees in crew might never really be worth it I think that's a world way it is if you have a ton a ton of rollups like the end game we might get to at some point then that that does become a lot for validar and andest sters what you kind of is alignment right so one I I I mean about this I say like the most powerful aspect of flock space is alignment where you could say a rollup right now they'd very much like to be aligned with Celestia because a Celestia will probably talk about them they'll treat about them they'll give them Partnerships they'll connect with other rollups etc etc if I'm a roll up on ethereum the ethereum foundation is not going to go retweet about my rollup they just don't do that um but so one aspect is you say Okay I

want Celestia stakers to be usess of my volup because they're likely to be interested in this because they're modular focused and they're holding this because they believe in it whatever it might be so alignment can be very powerful right and that could give value to something because you know maybe all these St rups they're going to be add dropping tokens to these um celesia sters um that that could be like one thing where you say okay this is like the extra value you get on top of the the fees is that alignment value so how much do you how do you value alignment if you look at like an i ler cly people value alignment pretty high um you could say that about the layers as well to some extent um especially if we're in a world where everything is just commoditized um and how much do you want

to pay for that alignment right um how much are you out dropping how much are you giving away to to I rest stakers as an cof I uh the way I would proba I think that we're in the same boat man we're going to ride this modular expansion together and uh and uh see you in ECC for a uh a beer and um hopefully a much more fully fledged modular ecosystem come July it's only two months away so uh but I've got yeah we'll be holding the the model Summit again um so celestian us will be hosting the model Summit uh just after UTC three days to sort of highlight everything and anything in the modular

ecosystem um and just to say like the mod ecst is just not not just cester right this expands outside of this as well um so you know you can probably see rollups as well maybe you'll see you know settlement layers some of them might be using SL some of them might not be um so I think there's a lot of stuff here that that would be very interesting to see and we're sort of seeing the the very I think start of how modity can help applications people are slowly sort of realizing this and I think we're in for a very interesting year in terms of applications look at at the end of it see you at the VC thank you so much for coming on and supporting our favorite projects before we even hear about them making this industry possible and uh having a modular haircut man

thank you so much it's been a pleasure