Unlocking Privacy on Ethereum with Paul Brody

Transcript

foreign bankless Nation we're talking about privacy on ethereum and Enterprise blockchain we have Paul Brody from ey that's Ernst Young on the episode today Paul's been a long time I think member of the ethereum community advocate for Enterprise blockchain also has this project called Nightfall David that we want to get into which is uh e-wise um software exactly it's a software suite it's a layer two technology as well I believe it's a roll-up that we can find out a little bit more and it's privacy Centric uh and uh so there's a lot to unpack here David what are we

going to cover today the concept of Enterprise blockchain is a big one there's of course IBM hyperledger that has uh previously captured a bunch of Mind share there's the concept of putting Supply chains on blockchains but overall just like Enterprise blockchain is a big subject that has failed to start art for so long now and it's always been about like why why is that true uh and Paul Brody is I think the only person I think I really trust with actually being the correct Visionary for this whole world of Enterprise blockchain he's been uh both straddling the Deep core ethereum Community while also leading up ey's blockchain effort uh and I think that and that's why I

kind of only believe that it's really Paul Brody to really is the one that's building out this ecosystem this universe of Enterprise blockchain so we're gonna lay the foundations of what is enterprise blockchain what does it mean and why hasn't it get started gotten started yet and uh what the eui is coming to the crypto world today uh this last week with a recent Nightfall release hopefully is the key ingredient that really unlocks this vast fast world of Enterprise blockchain there we go help us Paul Brody you're our only host here um before we get in want to talk a little bit about our friends and sponsors this is the crypto tax calculator because guess what what David like it or not it's tax season my friend isn't it always tax season it's always tax season somewhere yeah that's something someone says

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scratching my head because um the complex transactions are actually the ones you need the most help on right ones you can't mess up yeah yeah you can't mess them up and doing doing them 50 is worse than doing them not at all yeah and like look you don't want to spend any time on taxes any more than you have to this is like this will save you many hours I think of uh of uh of work and also David um we do have a discount I believe that we negotiated with crypto tax calculator for the bankless nation for the bankless community how can folks tap into that discount uh there is a link in the show notes first to get your get access to crypto tax calculator that link is banklist.cc slash crypto tax calculator and then if you use code Bank 30 you get

30 off but if you are a bank with premium member there is a link in the Discord for 40 off so if make sure to go into the Discord to get your extra 10 percent secret links all right um we're gonna get right to the episode with Paul and last thing before we do David and um what should people be looking out for in this episode what are some of the questions I guess that uh we want answered yeah I think it it's pretty easy to make the claim that we are just at the very beginning of broad crypto use cases for the world like we are maybe one to five percent on unlocked of all total crypto use cases one of the big untapped Fields out there is crypto use cases for Enterprises for large-scale uh entities that trans uh

straddle the world of you know digital online payments but real world physical Goods how can blockchains enable uh Commerce uh especially when there's there's real Supply chains on one end and digital payments on the other how do these two worlds map onto each other and how can we use blockchains to help facilitate this world that is one of the big untapped fields that crypto has yet to Pioneer into and asking why not why haven't we got in there yet is a I think a question only Paul Brody can answer and so these are going to be the start of the rabbit hole that maybe uh piques the interest of many many bankless listeners all right guys we're going to get right to the episode with Paul but before we do we want to tell you about the sponsors that made this possible especially starting with Kraken which is

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it now because some airdrops expire and if you sign up for earnify they'll email you anytime one of your wallets has a new airdrop for it to make sure that you never lose an airdrop ever again you can also upgrade to earn five premium to unlock access to airdrops that are beyond the basics and are able to set reminders for more wallets and for just under 21 a month it probably pays for itself with just one airdrop so plug in your wallets at earnify and see what you get that's e-a-r-n-i dot f i and make sure you never lose another airdrop bankless Nation I want to introduce you to Paul Brody he is the head of ey's blockchain business ey is of course ernstein and young one of the big four Global Professional Services and accounting firms he has been at ey for nearly eight years uh before that he was

VP at IBM where he started IBM's first blockchain project so he has been around the block and like I've said in the intro I've had very high praise for Paul uh he's been straddling the world of ethereum deep core ethereum uh and Enterprise blockchain use cases uh and you know most people who work on Enterprise blockchain you know private blockchains like intra networks in my mind they don't really get it but Paul has been deep into the weeds of the ethereum community as well as Enterprise use cases and so if anyone's going to crack the nut of Enterprise use cases for public blockchains is going to be Paul at least that's my idea Paul welcome to bankless guys thank you so much I really appreciate it and thank you also for the

kind words not just now but in the past I I know what you guys say like my name or the ey name because my my text messages start blowing up like you're like hey Paul I'm listening to the bank list they're talking about like you guys so I know I mean the people I respect respect you guys and listen to you so thank you so much for having me on I really appreciate it it's great to be here well cheers man there's a there's so much to to unpack and I know there's a great world out there that we want to uh bring forth onto ethereum and that world is of course Enterprise blockchain but I think this could be this could use some definitions because this is not really something that like the many or the the community is really used to this is an interesting new uh topic field for

them what is enterprise blockchain like why is this such a big thing who I I think Enterprise blockchain is is is and should be a big deal for maybe I'll start with what is it so in my mind Enterprise blocking is really just Enterprises using blockchains in order to run their business transactions right so and and what I really mean is basically almost every business transaction kind of boils into this one party has money the other party has stuff and I can represent the money and the stuff as digital tokens and I can represent the exchange under the terms of an agreement as a smart contract and so when I think about Enterprise blockchain I think about all the things that can be done under that message what I don't think of as Enterprise blockchain is just like

some specific blockchain only for Enterprises right and that's always been the the thing that has always uh raise a flag for me when it comes to these private blockchains that they haven't really been in conversation in a number of years now but for a while I remember in 2017 2018 there was always this very big hype about public versus private blockchains and a lot of the cork you know crypto Bitcoin Community was like private blockchains the whole point about these things are that they are public that they are they're cool I'm wondering if you could uh just take us down memory lane about this like the progress of under how we've understood private versus public blockchains as it relates to Enterprises so that full history is is a really fraught history because

um and and it goes to the heart of why blockchains haven't caught on very far inside the Enterprise which is a couple of things number one private blockchains does not work and all the people in the crypto Community who are like yeah this is crazy they're right they were always right like this idea that you would want to have a centrally run decentralized Ledger it doesn't make sense if you spend even a couple minutes thinking about it so first of all nobody wants to join these like private fully private sort of ecosystems they're just like a Web 2.0 business model with a little bit of web3 pixie dust sprinkled on top that doesn't work right if we're going to do this if the value prop is decentralization no centralized Monopoly and then the second issue has been very simply privacy probably blockchains the way that I was explaining because listen

the way they work the way they work without central Authority is I'm checking your work and you're checking my work and so if we hide the work by default public blockchains are designed for a lack of privacy and so you have to think very very carefully about how you would design something for privacy because Enterprises care a lot about privacy they don't want to share all that information about what they're doing how much they're paying but they really do like the idea of a system that doesn't have a potential future predatory monopolist right in the middle so I want to make the distinction Paul between some of these words so that listeners aren't confused by this so you're saying Enterprises don't actually want private blockchains they want public blockchains the public

infrastructure that they all use an analogy here might be rather than kind of a a local network an intranet for your company that really the the value that that Enterprise is unlocked was on the public network the internet right and that's kind of the the analog here and you're saying yes to the internet yes to the public chain no to the private local blockchain like what is that it's just a database but when you say private blockchain that organizations don't want a private blockchain they you're not referring to privacy because they absolutely do want privacy on their chains they want a public blockchain that includes privacy

and that has been someone of a constraint I think thus far because okay now we have public blockchains that are out there ethereum being kind of the most notable and most incredibly neutral most adopted but ethereum still doesn't have privacy on the base layer and that is a thing that seems to be a core requirement is that a distinction would make the difference between privacy versus a private chain yes you've perfectly captured it right Enterprises and by the way I think individuals too but Enterprises who are very strategic right in how they think about ecosystems and they don't want to be trapped or or kind of face risk they want privacy for their transactions but they want to execute them on a neutral distributed public infrastructure just

like the internet okay can we talk oh go ahead David yeah and and look can we just like make it really obvious as to why Enterprises need privacy like what happens if Enterprises don't have privacy so I mean they would never use blockchains they don't have privacy think about like uh you know your smartphone what what you buy in Walmart right they these companies negotiate deals with suppliers right and what they're buying how much they're buying where it is how much they're paying how many widgets they have these are all like first of all they're among the most secret information that companies have like it's super secret it's top secret they are carefully negotiated secondly if you're a publicly traded company this is all what gets called material non-public

information if I could look at what you've got and where it is I know how your quarters turning out I know how your business is doing I know who your suppliers are I I would be exposing so much information that it would it would out the damage of exposing that would far outweigh any benefits I got from using blockchain which is why Enterprises especially just can't deal with any form uh they need some they need a high level of privacy it's not going to be perfect by the way right we you know every time an Apple or Samsung comes out with a new phone people crack them open and look at who the suppliers are we we can all acknowledge Enterprise privacy is not perfect and the same way that personal privacy isn't but people Enterprises need some core information to remain relatively private uh over time so like

asking a company to use a public blockchain without privacy would almost be like asking them to like release all of their emails to the public it's showing their cards yeah it's showing everything right it's just like this is what makes you know that this is our uh competitive Advantage this this this collection of information if we leak this then we kind of lose our company exactly and so and as a result it's not easy for them to get on board they do Enterprises do use public blockchains in a limited way today but they only disclose stuff that they're totally comfortable letting everybody know which is frankly a very small amount of information right at the end of the day uh in order for them to consider other use cases they need the

Privacy capability well let's talk about use cases then really quick so the use cases for an Enterprise for a company of a public blockchain let's assume it has privacy it's a public blockchain but it also has privacy so all the transactions are fully private what sorts of things would an Enterprise a company want to do so Enterprises want to do a bunch of things first of all they would really love to automate all of their transactions like um if you think about any business contract it's if I haven't set up a contract with you and I want to buy stuff right we're going to have some kind of agreement and there's going to be terms and conditions attached to that agreement and every time I send you a purchase order for another batch of Widgets or some more video games you're

gonna send me back those products and then I'm gonna you're gonna send me invoice I'm gonna I'm gonna spend all this time like okay Ryan said he was going to give me you know this amount of money but we agreed on this discount and companies spend it turns out a lot of money like on average a hundred dollars of time and effort every time they approve a payment like in the world of blockchain people talk about oh payments are expensive or we have a cheaper way of doing payments the cost of actually doing the payment is nothing compared to all the verification that goes on in an Enterprise where they think about matching the terms of the business agreement with an invoice with a smart contract you can literally make that happen instantly and for almost nothing and and we've done this on private blockchains like we did this from

Microsoft we took the amount of time it takes them to process their monthly transactions for the Xbox video game network from 45 days down to like five minutes and we we cut the cost of doing that in half because it just automatically checks like this is a smart contract I know exactly how many transactions it makes it automated perfectly and com it also beautifully keeps track of everything because tokens on blockchains the beauty of tokens on blockchains is that they sort of I would say tokenization does for anything what banks do for money which is it applies real control like if I have to remember how many widgets I've sent you or how many things you bought because of the way tokens work if I want to give you one I have to take it out of my inventory and if I want to make it I

have a special control over like which smart contract makes that token tokenization and smart contracts provide so much more reliable information and really Automation and speed compared to all these other systems that exist today where everyone's trying to reconcile like 10 different pieces of information and I think that you're what you're tapping into right now Paul is kind of illustrating why everyone knows that there's this world out there called Enterprise blockchain like we've got all the puzzle pieces we've got the tokens we've got the smart contracts we even have like defy apps if we need them and everyone's like all right all these puzzle pieces are there but like everyone's trying to figure out how to fit them together I think we might have

the final puzzle piece that we needed it was called privacy but this is why this world is so uh it's been talked about for so long is like what you're really talking about Paul is like oh yeah there's a bunch of business logic inside of Enterprises that cost them a bunch of money and what is Smart contracts other than the automated automatization of business logic and so everyone knows these ingredients are out there it's just like no one's really figured out how to put the puzzle pieces together would you call it would you say that's a fair description of the journey thus far in Enterprise blockchain yes where everybody's sort of aware theoretically of all the use cases all the value propositions they're struggling to find the killer one that's going to trigger and all the

capabilities required to sort of trigger this flood of activity so Paul I have a kind of a question for you um with respect to that so the business logic of of kind of supply chain Right Moving that back and forth um don't existing Enterprises already have some systems in place for this and I don't know very much about this uh this space um but I know a little bit um I used to be kind of involved in like healthcare Supply chains and there would be digital standards um EDI was a digital standard um of for example and you could use EDI message formats to connect one Erp system you know enterprise resource

planning system to another this is how organizations would communicate and there would be some sort of like business logic layer in between again I don't want to go too far in this or else I I sort of risk saying something like kind of that I have no idea what I'm talking about but um in the same way I think existing Banks when when we talk about um digital money or program money like uh we already have that guys it's called like don't you see what's in your bank account and the digits on your screens already digitized we're like no no no no we're talking about digital scarcity on something different and you can't enforce that the banking layer we're talking programmable money and you don't do that with the traditional banking system I guess my question is is there

some degree of for supply chain and business logic in that sort of use case there's already some sort of digitization that exists with existing standards that we have and we with existing middleware and enterprise resource planning system are you saying that that Enterprise blockchain can kind of obviate the need for all of that or does it do something more does it make it more programmable help me understand that piece of it so you've actually drawn a really beautiful analogy right so uh if you think about the world of electronic money right Supply chains are very similar right a lot of the data is already electronic and it's already digitized but it's in all of these little silos and so if you think about the banking system right Swift is a messaging system Swift allows people to

message back and forth and indeed EDI which you referred to is this like whole parallel infrastructure that grew up at around the same time to Swift so Swift was moving money and EDI was moving products and services and goods right and the two systems were separate and then companies inside their Erp systems would spend all this time like reconciling okay I got this money this bank account and I think it was for this invoice which came from the supplier and it becomes this very very expensive complicated game that goes on inside the Enterprise and by the way it doesn't really work for the same reasons like money messaging doesn't work particularly well uh asset and data messaging don't work very well because they're devoid of programmability so I can't attach any business logic I can

only tell you something and because of the way EDI works right it's point to point where you end up with these little islands of information I know stuff that other parties don't and if I am one or two layers away in the supply chain I can't tell that like a fire burned down at a factory or a container fell off a ship I can't see that information so um EDI I always joke that like um uh blockchain in this blockchain in the sense is a cure for EDI in the same way that sort of programmability is a cure for a lot of the the constraints of the more traditional money system it makes the whole enterprise process across Enterprises truly programmable so we could really almost I don't say get rid of EDI but like um uh Leap Frog

it uh need less of it maybe in the same way that crypto is promising that we'll need less of Swift in the future and then also will we kind of disrupt this whole business logic layer all of the Erp systems and that sort of thing I mean because I know that's very expensive to maintain I don't know what what portion of um your cost goes into that for traditional Enterprises but are you saying we kind of disrupt that whole business logic layer on the Erp side or would it integrate with with um you know crypto or how would that work I see Erp Enterprises are going to keep maintaining their own systems but what I think will happen over time is that anything that involves multiple Enterprises will actually abstract will actually migrate to the blockchain that

will become the system of record for anything that's about transacting with other companies and if you were to go back like 75 years 75 years ago in the 1950s and 60s the most kind of admired Factory in the world was the Ford factory at River Rouge and I'm exactly a little bit basically dirt went in one side and cars came out the other like a steel mill like a rubber Factory a glass Glass Works everything like so much of the car was made there and the most important thing that a company had to do was manage themselves today if you ask like what is kind of the Prototype factor of the world it would be like a phone assembly plant in Shenzhen where hundreds of suppliers send stuff from all around the world and all they do there is assemble and it and what's happened over this last 75 years is the

important thing is gone from managing your own business which is what Erp does to managing all your relation with your suppliers and your customers and that's what you can do with blockchain that's what blockchain is so perfect for is this ability to see an entire ecosystem end-to-end and coordinate all the pieces and share business logic and data across your Enterprise boundaries Paul how do you build that Network effect though right someone like the internet it uh it's a network in that it doesn't work until you get some critical mass and then according to metcalf's law it gets more and more valuable than more Network participants you have the more nodes you have so how do you get all of these suppliers and you know all of these uh very stakeholders in a supply chain to start using it at the same time

so I think they're sort of three things number one you have to make it not scary and and by not scary I mean a couple things number one because the internet like the internet ethereum is public and open which means anybody can join and I can't lock you in yes you can come to ey and you can love our services and and use our stuff but if you first up inexplicable reason take a disliking to us you can go anywhere else it's a little bit like your internet service provider they're they're helpful to you but you're not locked in you can always choose somebody else so the first thing is you make it not scary not scary strategically secondly you make it not scary technologically right the reality is is that blockchains zero knowledge proof for privacy these are like really really hard and and very difficult and

most companies are not going to want to hire all the engineers and mathematicians and stuff to do that what you have to do uh for Enterprises is what we've seen all these other companies do you need metamask wallet you need the equivalent of metamask wallets kind of web browsers that are optimized for ipfs you need all these bits and P Jesus and so one of my goals is to make the easy stuff that companies can just say oh I I can um uh I can uh just write to this API it's super simple and I get private transactions and then the last thing is you want to provide some interoperability so one of the things that we're doing is like a lot of the stuff that we're preparing for our clients we're actually using EDI messaging standards stuff

that's been around for 50 years right where like you know how to send an EI your Erp knows how to send an EDI you can send us the EDI message and we'll turn it into a blockchain set of tokens or a blockchain based invoice for example okay I think that was a fantastic set of background for just like the all the broad use cases like and it's it's truly just using ethereum the way that Ryan and I have been saying we've been using ethereum like it's the settlement layer it's the inter-party settlement layer where whether those parties are individuals or large-scale Enterprises it doesn't really matter it's a settlement layer uh but like we've established privacy is the thing that really is a deal breaker for so many Enterprises they want to use settlement layers to facilitate Commerce but they

can't show their cards in in doing so right if if it's publicly viewable about which company or which Enterprise is trading what with whom uh all of a sudden that kind of discloses too much to make companies scared that makes them scared to to what you're saying so Paul this brings us to why we've brought you on to the show today because ey has got something cool it's been developing this thing called Nightfall for a very long time and something just finally got released last week can you walk us through what is nightfall and what got released last week yeah so uh Nightfall is a zero knowledge optimistic roll-up that runs on top of ethereum and can also run on top of the polygon proof of State Network and it's it's very simple thing everybody's heard

of zero knowledge Roll-Ups but this is different this is zero knowledge for privacy not zero knowledge for scalability so uh what it does is it basically allows you to take any kind of erc20 ERC 721 or even 1155 uh put it into the Nightfall Shield contract and by the way you can also mint under privacy and move them around with other business parties under privacy on public etherea and and to do so because of the the Privacy enablement layer the goal is that it is in in you can do it because it's optimistic at a very very low gas cost so that's the goal and so this unlocks it this actually kind of does feel like an intranet except that it's

hooked onto ethereum and so it is a roll-up which is open and permissionless question mark yes yes okay so let me let me go ahead let me actually really address that particular point because that's a really important one this is a roll-up and it is only accessible to Enterprises to access it you have to have an x.509 certificate which is issued by and which is issued two Enterprises uh by the certificate authorities now this does not mean that it's a permissioned roll-up I want to be very clear like x dot 509s are a completely open public standard the certificate authorities will issue an x.509 to any legitimate Enterprise that submits their documentation and passes

through the uh the sanctions listing checks but what we wanted to do was we wanted to make it genuinely open and decentralized in public leg but we also wanted to make it genuinely unattractive for Bad actors like this provides for privacy I want to be super clear privacy but not anonymity which is is something that you know if you uh if you look at kind of how the government is looking at privacy issues right and the situation with tornado cash they've been very clear that that they don't look kindly upon systems which might be misused uh for money laundering for example okay so uh the X 509 certificate that is something that is a standard not a regulation and I think uh Eric uh

Voorhees had a fantastic um uh just like dive down the details between regulation versus standards standards are systems that are adopted bottom up and it's just like a community consensus it's like this is a good standard regulation is top down that's Authority that is enforcement by by jail time uh and so uh if when you say the word standards it's kind of like oh humans kind of came to consensus onto what what this thing is and so this this roll up Nightfall is pseudo-gated in the sense that you need something to get onto that uh into onto that roll up but it's that something isn't given to you by a nation state it's given to you by a collective body of people that we've all agreed are a good and a legitimate uh issuing these certificate is that is

that a fair summary right and you know we just really wanted to sort of take from the internet right the internet's public it's open everybody has SSL certificates which are what is the main thing that the the certificate authorities issue so we wanted the same kind of public open yet identified kind of uh value proposition in that that process and and Paul I mean uh Enterprises don't really need anonymity anyway and they don't that's not really a use case necessarily they definitely want privacy but to say that you know you can't have anonymity on this Enterprise blockchain Network I mean they don't care about that do they they don't they do not care about that they just care about privacy and so how

about um you know transactions and uh gas fees for this sort of thing so it's funny we've gotten to this point in the conversation I think the the central point we made earlier was that the reason Enterprises haven't come here already is because they haven't had privacy and that's certainly true but the other thing that we haven't had at least on ethereum is um low-cost transactions so does Nightfall solve that too can you get into more detail so Nightfall is certainly cheaper than most other Solutions because we went down the optimistic roll-up path so we went ZK for privacy and optimism for low transaction cost and it's cheap it's it's relatively inexpensive it'll be like in the range of 15 to 20 cents I

think on the main net much much lower on the polygon proof of State Network we're not quite to the level where I would like us to be for the simple reason that if you we we talked to our Enterprise clients we have we have one client a really good example they estimate so they make about a half a million unique packages of medicine each day each one of those would be recorded as an nft so they would mint half a million nfts a day and then then each nft gets transferred first of distributor then to a hospital and then maybe to an end patient so you're talking about you know an average of two million transactions a day for that you have to go on like a layer two or effectively be almost like a layer three right because

tens of millions or our estimate for example for the automotive industry is if you were to bring entire automotive industry onto public ethereum which by the way I want to see I believe all these industries are coming here eventually you're talking about three to five billion transactions per day from industrial applications and that that that is Layer Two really layer three type of activity um but I think it all ends up there eventually and you ethereum becomes that that fundamental settlement layer so we still have some work to do on the scalability front then and you're implementing this as an optimistic roll up right now I would imagine that um Peridot Deng sharding with um eip4844 will really help reduce the fees from

like 20 cents to to hopefully far less as well yeah and our next version will be a zkzk so we'll do a ZK roll-up on top of DK privacy we're we we took we worked with polygon for about a year on sort of a lot of the scaling work and we're very appreciative of the help that we got from polygon on some of our scaling thinking um and production sort of hardening so this version it's been security audited it's been somewhat production hardened the next version we will will sort of Swing the pendulum swing back towards optimizing the algorithm to drive costs down again I can't believe the kind of numbers you've been talking about with respect to nft minting so like it's very hard for me to Fathom at this point like billions of nfts necessary to support the automotive industry we're not there

yet clearly um what where are we like are there still some lower transaction volume types of use cases where even at 20 cents per uh kind of transaction uh that this can make sense absolutely so we would expect sort of a lot of higher value items finished products will work in this space um we would look for like a lot of financial services actually make a lot of sense we're we're talking to a whole bunch of companies that want to just do things like have their proprietary trading strategies where they can't you know be everything can be seen right one of the challenges particularly um in financial services is uh um exchanges and other providers work

great it almost like mixers if you want privacy and you're using erc20s but if your financial asset or any asset that you have is an nft you can't you can't rely on kind of these mixer type models you need to have a true Shield contract where you can execute your trades under privacy so anything that's really non-fungible right it kind of will I think will migrate underneath a privacy layer Paul there's some very big questions that I think we need to address uh it's a roll up so who's maintaining that uh what's in this for ey like why why are you guys doing this if this is going to be a public kind of accessible network uh like how how does that help uh and then also like is that's there's a lot

of privacy technology uh in this conversation it's the nation state going to be cool with that like we were there we already got tornado cash uh deemed illegal so I want to ask you all of these questions and a few more because if you're talking about tokenizing thousands of of items into tokens that sounds like the conversation of like can we tokenize everything in the world uh so these there are some very big conversations I want to get to but first we have to talk a moment to talk about these fantastic sponsors that make this episode possible uniswap is the largest on-chain Marketplace for self-custody digital assets uniswap is of course a decentralized exchange but you know this because you've been listening to bankless but did you know that the uniswap web app has a shiny new Fiat on-ramp now you could go directly from

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assets and start building your first app with arbitrum experience web 3 development the way it was meant to be secure fast cheap and friction free and we're back we're going to unpack some of these very large conversations and I think I want to start with this one Paul you talked about how like some use cases for Enterprise blockchain will involve the tokenizing of thousands and thousands of individual items into nfts in order to allow these Enterprises to like do their supply chain management their tracking their Commerce their trade that kind of sounds like the tokenization of everything conversation there's like this meme in the crypto space like we're gonna tokenize the world is this how we do that is Enterprise is through Enterprise use cases how we actually like put strawberries on the blockchain

yeah absolutely it's funny you say strawberries we actually did uh several years ago we actually made a video it's called Pizza on a blockchain we talked about fungible tokens non-fungible tokens what happens at the Pepperoni's non-fungible but the cheese is fungible or the tomatoes are fungible like but yeah I mean everything everything that we buy I think eventually gets tokenized and and we need to do that through the Enterprise use case right because like who else is going to do it yeah I mean people are not going to tokenize I mean they might do a little bit but for the most part yeah I think you know if Enterprises make stuff and they want to keep track of it and if we think about the the things that we're asking companies to do now so one of the things that you'll hear if you're you

don't spend as much time in the world of Enterprise as I do but if you'll hear Enterprises talk a lot about uh the circular economy right I make stuff I use it I recycle it right Enterprises are kind of increasingly trying to tokenize and track everything because they expect to get it back and to recycle it to renew it to sell it again right and so if they do it right it kind of potentially is very profitable for them because they're they're basically selling refurbishing selling refurbishing that's one of the broader conversations that I remember listening to very very early is like one of the big reasons why this world is so unsustainable is because a lot of our supply Chains Are One Way rather than circular and we it's because we don't have the recapture mechanisms we don't have the tracing mechanisms and so one

of the most like sci-fi uh articulations of blockchain use cases is that but we never actually lose track of our stuff and so we never actually we actually have to keep having to make new stuff in order to replace the stuff that gets lost because we don't have these viable tracking mechanisms I'm sure blockchains are not just this Silver Bullet where all of a sudden we contract everything but that was one of the original like oh my God blockchains are going to do everything kind of moments I think we all kind of have in our beginning of our crypto Journey where we need like Enterprise use cases of blockchain so we can track all the things so we can be a less wasteful Society is this is this am I tracking something here Paul yeah absolutely and we you know one of one of the things I'm trying to get

somebody to buy into at one point is you may know in some states we have these these laws that you can get money back for for like aluminum cans right or glass bottles right I would like a model where you know you when you tokenize an asset and you put an RFID tag in it there's money to be had for the recycling and so we actually create I believe and and blockchain is such a perfect example of this even though I'm sometimes a Critic of the financialization of everything I really do believe like if there was a financial incentive for recycling we would do a lot more of it right and if you knew that you were getting money back when you sent your shirt back in or you took your your mugs in or whatever like we would do a much better job about

actually recycling stuff so at least in this case I would like to see the financialization of recycling leading to us actually renewing and reusing stuff yeah that reminds me of this one little like quip I like to bring up whenever this topic comes up Paul do you know the difference between Recycling and garbage like how is that line drawn I don't well it's simple it's simple it's it's if it's economic to recapture it it turns into recycling if it's not economic to recapture it that's garbage and that is how that line is drawn and so like if making things more economical to recapture makes things into recycling unless things garbage that is an admirable and Noble goal yeah and it's it's one of the fact like

that whole category of like ESD carbon traceability one of the fastest growing categories of our business especially the moment in the middle of crypto winter the one thing that people don't necessarily want to do as much crypto stuff but they they still really are focused on and growing that other part of the business although I I personally have a lot of confidence that the fine Insight is going to come back like it's it's a it's down but not out when we talk about some these things that will be tokenized by Enterprises um are they generally like real world assets so do you know in in crypto um we sort of make the distinction between things that tokens that correspond to real world Assets in the physical world right and they're sort of

tokenized representation representations of something in in the space of atoms so strawberries would be an example of this I think usdc is also an example of this there's some real world asset off-chain in a bank somewhere that every usdc maps to is one dollar equals one dollar hopefully somewhere in Silver Gate bank I hope fingers crossed right guys um are there also like native assets token assets uh that don't correspond to real world assets in Enterprise is it more real world assets or are there just like chain only types of assets that you can envision I think there'll be tons of chain only assets one of the things that's kind of cool about ethereum is it's becoming a true economic ecosystem right it's not

just that ether's money and that we also tokenize stuff and put it on chain but you know in the ethereum ecosystem there's all these digital kind of I'll call them ethereum native Computing Services content distribution decentralized Computing decentralized storage that that are I think are truly kind of chain native assets and then it's funny like you talked about usdc as a real world asset but it's just another set of electrons in a different system yeah it is one of the things that one of the things that we talk a lot about yeah exactly one of the things that we talk a lot about at ey because we're historically an audit firm is like what can you tokenize in such a way that you could actually keep track of it right uh so strawberry is a good example right we can't really barcode strawberries we they're they're tough to keep track of

but um barrels of oil also kind of a fungible item but then again you know we do a pretty good job of keeping track of them and there's like oil-based stable coins uh gold bars dollars um almost any kind of an asset and and to me the the candidates for for best tokenization are things that we can keep track of right especially that are sort of already digitized in some way like a lot of manufacturing is already digital so for example we meant a token for Peroni the Italian beer company every time they complete a new batch of beer and we do that for traceability yeah for traceability purposes and but to do that all we have to do is plug into the Peroni manufacturing system and it tells

us automatically hey I finished the batch of beer please make this token so uh that's like a pre-digitized thing right so uh if you think about a FedEx package or a UPS package right then it's got a tracking number it's a beautiful thing to like digitize create that token when it gets delivered you mark it as delivered and you burn a token or something but there's um one of the questions is the the limitation on tokenization is really is can you pen you and is it worth tracking right I can't really track I can't track an individual strawberry but I can and probably do care about tracking like an entire crate of strawberries or a million jars of strawberry jam especially if that strawberry jam might contain like salmonella right so that of

course it's a little bit like the recycling question right at what point is it worthwhile actually tracking it in as we get better and better at driving the cost down it's very interesting when we started in this business we started with bottles of wine like our first Italian client they were they wanted bottles of wine you know and and not just cheap ones expensive ones right now we're on to tracking you know cases of beer we can do that because from ethereum in the old days right where where transactions were like 30 40 50 cents we can go to uh polygon proof of State Network and we can we can make you know basically you know we can track on cans of beer well maybe pallets of beer and cases of beer at a level that's economical and so uh the going back to like my metaphor was like all right the

more things are that are becoming economical the more things are worth saving like it sounds like we'll start by like anything that it sounds like there's always a broadcast question of like all right how do you actually put something on on a blockchain as a token when like you don't know where that thing exists in the real world like it's your answer to that Paul is like well we actually kind of already do that but we already do that in like those web 2 non-blockchain way and so because we already do create digital representations of physical items in some database somewhere it's actually not that crazy to then put that on the blockchain again we just need a little bit of privacy and then perhaps it'll start with like these super high value items maybe like gold for example a bar of gold actually has a serial number

most people don't know that gold is serialized a barrel of oil you don't lose that thing and it's pretty damn fungible and we'll start with some of this high level stuff and then we'll start to get more granular and we'll go from like you know an entire shipping container of strawberries down to a crate of strawberries down maybe down to an individual strawberry I don't even know how but the idea is that as we get better at this as Humanity we can get more and more granular about just the goods of the world and all of a sudden literally everything becomes tokenized that's that's how this works okay great it seems to be a function more of like um we've got you know we've talked about um layer twos being sort of ethereum and crypto's band high bandwidth moment

right and it seems like the cheaper the bandwidth gets the more granular you can actually get and kind of tracking this stuff my my question I have another question about this too is it almost seems like um while there is some intersection between what's going on over here in crypto and the stuff that bankless mainly talks about and over here in Enterprise and some of that intersection is well at the end of the day it all settles on ethereum or polygons in these same chains right and I'm sure um you know uh ey and Nightfall can benefit from things services like infuria for instance or or metamask wallets and all of these things and and some of the code libraries it does also seem like there's kind of a parallel world that doesn't like intersect with the other so there's

no way for me to get like a um a pallet of beer for example in tokenized form and throw that into a a maker Vault and use it to back one of my loans but maybe it would be cool if there was and so I'm sort of wondering if there's any intersection between Enterprise blockchain cases you're talking about and sort of the future of D5 maybe it's simple things like well are you able to get usdc payments in the Enterprise blockchain world can you kind of import a usdc token and start to use that for payment can you tell us where some of the near-term intersection lines might be if there are any yeah so there are absolutely near-term intersection lines um the usdc example is a really good one so Enterprises for

the most part they want to be paid in the same currency in which they do most of their other core transactions that means US Dollars Euros Yen so uh and we see big Banks offering um uh uh stable coins so stable coin payments for sure that's going to be one of the very first things that they do after tokenizing assets on supply chain then when I think when we get to uh higher value assets so in the future whether it's an air mass handbag or your your new car right your electric car if it's tokenized and it's a representation um you should be able to borrow against the value of that asset eventually it'll be real estate but I I foresee an environment where you take delivery of assets and then as an individual you can

put them into a uh you can put them into a D5 service so ultimately and and by the way if you're an Enterprise if you have inventory and it's high value inventory you're either sitting on gold or oil or uh you know a hundred thousand dram memory chips you should be able to borrow against the value of that asset I see a lot I foresee lots of Enterprise Define financial services at free up working capital so uh a lot of these things that consumers have pioneered are going to be available to Enterprises over time time just not yet right it'll take a little bit of time Enterprise is the one that you have to remember about the way Enterprises operate they're just incredibly risk-averse and very very cautious they're gonna sort of tiptoe into this they're going to start by

tokenizing stuff but not by taking payments a really good example we talked about this a lot like let's say you tokenize a bunch of stuff and you get hacked right if you get hacked and they take all of your inventory tokens they haven't actually stolen your inventory they didn't cause a financial crisis they caused the data corruption crisis and so what happened is companies will start with the things that feel low risk they'll get comfortable with them they'll after they've gone for quite a while without being hacked or sort of really being you know discovering any major problems then to say okay now we're going to try adding a little bit of payment to some of these and so it'll be a very like consumers are always going to be three four five years ahead because they just they don't even worry about that stuff

they just read all the terms and just like click okay right that enterprises look at all the terms and conditions like we need to form a committee right at the same time what's interesting about Enterprises though they might be slow they are they are goliaths aren't they they're absolutely massive so I'm just thinking of a world even just take that slim use case of of stable coins let's say stable coins get de-risked they're still somewhat they feel somewhat risky right now but let's say a few things happen over the next three to to five years there's some stable coin legislation that comes into place in um in the United States it's very possible this could very well happen right um there's some kind of de-risking and some certainties that are provided by

Auditors around usdc for example even above and beyond what we have right now uh there's some early kind of traction of Enterprises having used this stuff right now the stablecoin market is about 150 billion or something like this it's tiny it's little and it's primarily retail I've got to think that the types of payments that you're talking about supplier payments that you're talking about um absolutely dwarfs what retail would consider as high volume I'm like I don't know the actual numbers here but like if you're doing payments on a full automotive supply chain I mean how much would the usdc volume need to expand in

order to support that it's like I could see us adding like like hundreds of billions trillions to usdc through Enterprise use cases alone maybe that's a an untapped adoption path that people in crypto aren't actually considering could you validate that by me are we talking about big numbers here you're talking about very big numbers although interestingly uh the biggest number of all is always the consumer payments right if I if I pay you know sure because if I pay fifty thousand dollars for a car as a consumer right that car actually only cost to manufacture about forty thousand so um consumers actually at the end of the day consumers we live in the consumer economy it drives it so consumers are the biggest ones but there tend to be

they tend to be high volume low value the total value is enormous but they but each individual payment is much much smaller Enterprises are still going to be you know hundreds of billions and many trillions of dollars Automotive is a great example like the biggest auto companies they have revenue of about 200 billion dollars a year of that 200 billion they actually spend probably in the range of 120 to 140 billion dollars buying stuff from their suppliers who in turn probably spend another they they move that on uh this is called like the you know Economist study this I call it the velocity of money right uh tier one two two three by the time you're down to like a few billion dollars it's probably been recycled 10

times so you are talking about trillions and trillions of dollars it's not as neglected as you think I've talked to like Jeremy alert who's a brilliant guy who's done an amazing job over at Circle he is absolutely aware of the scale and scope of the opportunity but because actually Jeremy is a really good example because he has a background in Enterprise he has been quite realistic about the amount of time that it takes but if you look at the kind of stuff that Circle and others are building they're building they're building Enterprise friendly apis they're building kind of the sets of tools that are designed to sort of soothe Enterprise fears about theft and fraud and and and and policy violations um they're you know the the best stablecoin providers are thinking

strategically about Enterprises and strategic kind of Regulatory Compliance I want to double click on that this D5 conversation just one less time before we uh come to some of the more Nightfall specific ones uh again we're talking about like okay we can figure out how to tokenize oil and gold and maybe more granular stuff in what world can I the normal ethereum address on ethereum buy one of those barrels of oil and can I also put that barrel of oil inside of a maker dowel and would that make her Dow Vault be on the layer one or would there need to be a custom maker Dow Vault on the Nightfall Layer Two like how should we think about like our individual relationship with stuff that's going on

on Nightfall how we can access it and how D5 gets integrated so I do think over time if we're successful people will start to create sort of privacy enabled layer 2 services that support that you know make your dad would be great example unit swap others because people want to transact under privacy right they want provable outputs but they want to transact under privacy so I would expect to see that and um over time what I would love to see is for individuals right today you can only get x.59 if you're an Enterprise but I would love to see a model where we can make a future version of Nightfall if we you know x.509 works great for Enterprises because we have this accepted Enterprise identity standard it there is no comparable accepted individual identity standard but if

there was I think it would be great for uh the future versions of Nightfall to be open to individuals and you ought to be able to buy a tokenized barrel of oil in the same way that you can go onto the stock market or the Futures market and buy oil Futures and cold Futures and things like that so you wouldn't expect to take delivery of your barrel of oil but you would expect you could own it you could put it you could say I I bet that the price of oil is going up or down and you should be able to make those financial bets yourself so the idea is that as this Nightfall ecosystem matures as more Enterprises come on to Nightfall The assets that are created on the Nightfall layer 2 actually can become exported to the ethereum layer one and used in broader defy

yes any asset that exists on ethereum it's an erc20 720 or 11 55 you can migrate into Nightfall it's basically a shield contract structure and any asset that you create inside of Nightfall can be migrated out of Nightfall into a standard ERC token structure well that uh is what we call bullish um Paul who's operating Nightfall who's running this roll-up and like should we consider this other than the x509 like certificate standard that's the main difference like should we consider this Nightfall to be like shoulder to shoulder with like optimism arbitrum polygon ZK sync how do we think about it who's operating the the roll up and how should we think about this in relation to other Roll-Ups that we know so so uh it's gonna be fully

decentralized so we're not going to have control over it but we are going to do the deployments and we are going to maintain some of the server infrastructure required to support it just to kind of make sure it goes on in a smooth and effective way um it should stand it is it is intended to stand alongside all these other layer twos but it's different in the sense that it is a privacy focused layer too so uh if you want if you want scalability you're going to look for like some of these ZK Roll-Ups if you want privacy hopefully you know uh uh um but the Nightfall is going to be your choice so that's the goal is it that's how you should think about it it's just another one of your options for Layer Two on top of ethereum and we will also deploy a version on top of the polygon

proof of State Network and this isn't going to be as simple as like uh I mean if uh you're building on arbitrum or optimism you can just copy and paste your code and build it on the other because these things are both like evm equivalent and I don't think that's true with Nightfall knife all has got its own developer Suite of services that it's got its own can you talk about like is there a different language like because things are different on Nightfall right so so Nightfall is not a full evm okay right it's not a Bolivia but only allows you to Mint transfer burn in a couple of I think we'll have Swap and stuff like that so it's a very very limited set of options it functions much more like a transactional roll-up not a full-scale evm

um and uh there is the way that sort of Shield contracts work you can have each piece of logic that's in there has to work for everybody now one of the things that we're doing we have a companion application to Nightfall called Starlight and the idea there is if you think about sort of this this go back to the model if I got money you got stuff we're exchanging them under the terms of an agreement if I have those two things I need the business logic as well and so what we did was we created Starlight and what starlight does is it lets you take a solidity smart contract mark it up with the things that you want to be make make private and then it recompiles it as a zero knowledge circuit and so Nightfall allows you to move assets mint

move transfer and burn assets under privacy Starlight allows you to assemble custom business logic under privacy and then we have a third thing coming called Starfall which allows you to take business logic that you executed on Starlight and apply it to payments and transfers under Nightfall and with those three things you can take any business agreement any set of business logic and deploy it with full privacy on public a theory and so this is this is the road map that you just gave us this like three-phase roads map and what you're saying is like it's not a full virtual machine that we're kind of used to with some of these optimistic rollups but you still get everything that you need to in order to execute a fully expressive business logic layer yeah it's building privacy one of the

hard things is like and this is just like you know all this gray hair I have like I really thought we would be here like four years ago honestly we we've been You're gonna laugh but you know the first version of Nightfall we showed in 2018 at Defcon and Prague like we've been grinding away at this for for like six years now it's just really hard like doing this right just really hard doing privacy right so you don't leak information so that you don't have insane gas fees right just to give you a sense like the current version of Nightfall is a thousand times more efficient than the original version a thousand times more kind of like gas efficient but it's just it's not like the first version of rifle we actually had to string together two blocks on ethereum to complete the transaction

like can you imagine what that would cause today like you know it's just crazy how how hard it is and how much longer it's taken but we are slowly but surely getting there and we're also learning all these lessons along the way like how to make get easier because a lot of the stuff that we're doing like zcash Zuko showed you can do quite a bit of this stuff for just Z cash but we wanted to make it much more accessible we tried teaching our developers things like how to use Socrates which is like a zero knowledge circuit language like they were like no can do do not like that we created Starlight so there's there's a there's six years of like grinding away on this problem and learning some very painful lessons along the way that that's all wrapped up in this this roadmap it's not it sounds

complicated but that's because it is and my goal is to get better and better at hiding the complexity in an easy user experience well Paul we were promised uh proof of stake in 2016 so you're not alone and and then extended road maps this is another question I've been I've been wondering though pause you lay out that road map and talk about how long you've been at this how are you doing this within e y like that's probably the most impressive I mean all of this is impressive but that's one of the most unique things about this is uh most companies particularly once as prestigious as ey would be staying the heck away from this and letting other people go through some

Cutting Edge stuff right you're talking about like ZK research and cryptography spinning up your own roll up for um the Enterprise like I am blown away that you're able to do this within a uh like a corporation uh and quite frankly I'm impressed back to kind of David's question earlier of like how are you how are you able to do this and what's what's kind of in it for ey so what's in it for ey and the reason we're able to do this is we've actually built a really great business in the world of blockchain and a big big chunk of it is just financial statement audit right there are lots of companies out there like exchanges others that need financial statement audits that have material quantities of crypto assets and

we're one of the major audit firms and we're the only ones that have really invested in the technology pretty early on in my time at DUI I convinced our leadership of a couple of really important things number one blockchain and crypto could be a really big business for us right and so if we wanted to do it well we needed to take it seriously which means a couple of important kind of follow-ons first do you really want to sign off on a financial statement audit and then admit that you don't have a single mathematician inside of your company the answer is really is no if you if you really sit down and think about it a lot of our other a lot of the other companies in this business that are signing off on audits they don't have any cryptographers they don't have any mathematicians I personally think

they're embracing way more risk than we are right so so you've really got to deeply understand the process secondly one of the things I convince him of is that if we wanted to build a long-term business supply chain all this other stuff we would not be able to do that on a private blockchain would have to be on public and if we were going to be taken seriously in the world of public blockchains we had to actually be contributors to the ecosystem not just like free writers and what's surprising is we've maintained a pretty good consensus inside of ey over the years that number one if we want to be taken seriously we've got to have the real technical jobs to do this like you know we have the clients have to look at our people and say okay you guys really know what you're doing number two we

have to be seen as positive contributors to the ecosystem we can't just be seen as Free Riders we have to make the contribution and then number three if we want the world you know it really is it's kind of as simple as if we want the world to do blockchain transactions that require privacy and we don't see any everybody has been focused the last few years on scalability staking scalability that kind of thing right we were like hey we gotta if we want to do this ourselves and we want to do it right we're going to have to go build the Privacy tech and and we just have to admit that if we want to do it right we're going to have to give it away so that everybody uses it yeah well I am really impressed in a world where I think a lot of companies

just don't have the attention span um or kind of the stamina to figure this whole crypto thing out um you guys certainly are and you've been right on a lot of things that um have been hard to discern in advance and you really have to be plugged in to kind of know for example uh five years ago it was certainly not consensus that public blockchain was the best bet and even just to be right on that um is uh is massive uh so uh yeah congratulations on all your progress there um Paul I have kind of one question for you as well because um we of course we're big fans of a little asset we call eth uh and what I've got in front of me is the burn Leaderboard on ultrasound

Dot money so this of course is the current set of applications and how much block space uh demand they have how much block space they are consuming how much of ethereum's settlement uh product that it sells which is block space uh is being purchased by all of these different consumers we see openc on the top we see each transfers we see tether in there um what do you think about Enterprise blockchain is that going to make an appearance on our top 10 list at some point in time how much ethereum blocks based demand might Enterprise blockchain deliver in a future where all of this is tokenized where the the vision of Nightfall is is fully realized

and the Enterprise is fully invested in the public blockchain ecosystem what do you think so uh I'll share with you the predictions that I've made and I I give you and I'll give you a little bit of reasoning around it I mean for sure the answer is yes um my expectation is this I believe that companies will adopt public blockchains at about the same rate at which they adopted the public clap and so if you go back to 2006 I think of like that was a starting gun on public Cloud Amazon launched AWS and they they took public Cloud had been around for a long time but it wasn't easy to use Amazon like made it easy to use they graded apis and suddenly you're doing storage and it was simple right

um it took 11 years from the go signal before more than 50 of all new business applications were deployed into the cloud so my Benchmark is this 11 years after the go signal and we'd have to agree like when is the go signal how when has it gotten easy enough and maybe we'll say it's 2023 so 11 years after 2023 we should get to more than half of all new major Enterprise business relationships transacting on public ethereum so my guess is that sometime around 2033 2034 uh Enterprise transactions will represent 50 or more of all kind of eth burn demands right and it'll it'll probably

be a bit of a a a a a an exponential because it'll start slowly um and and then as it gathers Pace just like the cloud it'll start to grow 30 40 a year and I'm bankless listeners might thinking like 10 11 years that's forever but I'll remind you that the scale of what Enterprise is is massive uh so of course it's going to take forever you get a lot inside of that that 10 to 11 years that that Paul is predicting and of course I think uh Paul's uh East nativism ethereum nativism is coming out right there in the uh understanding the the relationship between Enterprise and the youth burn oh this has been a lot I'm I'm uh I've been plenty of times accused of being an

eth maxi same yeah we've also been accused of this it's you know what the like the the predictions and the way you're building this have largely been the most correct I think of all Enterprise blockchain strategies so um you don't need Maxi you're just uh you're just trying to write [Laughter] um that's what we definitely all typically yeah this has been a lot of fun thanks for walking us through all of this Paul um is there any way folks can get involved so like people who are listening what are what are some ways that they can get involved find out more about Nightfall yes uh so Nightfall is available you showed it briefly before it's a it is a public domain both Nightfall and starlight our public domain open source

projects anybody can use them anybody contribute you can Fork them all you have to do is go visit our it's it's github.com eyblockchain nightfall 3 is the current version that we're on and if you go back up to the ey blockchain layer you'll see some of the other stuff that we're doing specifically um there's Starlight which is the other really kind of important one it's that we call these things zaps right for CK apps but it's a trans pilot it lets you take um zkp work so let the contracts turn them into zero knowledge circuits so uh those are kind of the two big ones we've got a few other bits and pieces in there as well the zkp challenge was kind of funny that was from 2018 we made a zero knowledge based supply chain prototype

and we threw down the challenge which was can anybody tell us who sold what to whom in this prototype model and of course in all the years nobody has we created it just to prove to Enterprises that if you put your data on public if you're if you put you know your core information on public ethereum that it would be secure and safe and and it has no one has ever come back and cracked our Grand Challenge so um that makes me pretty happy that's awesome that's a challenge to all the listeners out there in the community station if you can crack it what's the is there a reward Paul there there is uh it's our public humiliation now granted uh you know I I don't know if our the other three of the big four will set the

heart of work at this so just for the the the points of on us but I think uh you know um it it it's just it just sort of demonstrates it was intended to give Enterprises confidence and you know I think if you can guess what somebody supplied to was five years ago that's probably not that helpful there you go uh Paul thank you so much for uh introducing us to this world it's been a lot of fun thank you for having me risks and disclaimers guys of course gotta let you know as we always do eat this recipe so is crypto so is all of D5 this is about Enterprise blockchain so not as risky as usual but uh also lots of fun maybe there's some risk uh we're headed west though as usual this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad

you're with us on the banquet's journey thanks a lot