From Uniswap to Ekubo—The DEX Uprising with Moody and Benjamin Sturisky

Transcript

I think that would be a much fairer launch you know you don't have this issue of like sniper Bots that that come in and just like buy the token and have huge chunks of it people will disagree with me but I view Bitcoin as the hardest collateral in the world and eth as the probably one of the strongest forms of money in the world Moody is like the like the Elon of dex's like just slashing cost left right they add up over time you're basically running Doge for solidity welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at the roll up.co Ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners

innovating Finance Global institutional and onchain deep liquidity to drive Capital efficiency now maximize yields on institutional grade liquid staking with M on lock trillion dollars of capital via F Bitcoin all of this secured by mantle treasury of billions in stables and E Capital Pools this entire ecosystem is coordinated by a vast network of season BCS that are aiming to create the next generation of Banking and Financial technology this is mantle GM GM welcome back to the rollup we are here today I

have the pleasure of of speaking with Moody the founder of eobo and Benjamin a uh recent uh ad to the Stark net Foundation um super stoked to have this podcast today because ECU recently launched its evm implementation it's starnet implementation has been live for a little while um and it is being called the most gas optimized decks on the market today we're going to talk about why that's important what that means um and uh and yeah without further ado Moody co-author of the Unis swap V3 white paper and uh adviser to Unis swap back in the day Moody welcome to the show thank you for having me yeah thanks for coming on man Ben it's uh it's a

pleasure to see you again and uh welcome to the show for the first time yeah thank you around looking forward to it absolutely both both of you guys are on for the first time so maybe you could talk a little bit about your backgrounds Moody if you don't mind uh you know share a little bit about about where you came from and uh what got you started on EO yeah so I'm actually a a selftaught software engineer um I studied Integrated Science in in college it's sort of like physics and math um initially I was pread and then uh you know that didn't work out fortunately uh so ended up uh really just loving computers uh I I I worked at so so when I was younger I loved video games loved

computers I built my own computers actually programmed um some games using Game Maker language uh like way back in the day uh and uh so yeah I sort of transition into like Technical Services for a healthcare software company uh thinking I might go back to med school or might go to med school eventually um and uh just love computers there I started writing a lot of code there learning how you know the data structures and the algorithms work under the hood um and I got hooked so um started looking for software engineering jobs did that at some startups for a couple years did that at Google for a couple years Amazon for a couple years um when I was working

at AWS uh I worked on the Amazon managed blockchain service um and and that really happened because I was already really into crypto that's something I picked up while I was at a startup um and uh and yeah in 2017 I was I was obsessed with ethereum but uh you know for for about three years the only jobs I could find in ethereum were like weird Ico type stuff um so I was not interested in that uh I did end up writing some smart contracts a long long time ago for for an Ico but I wasn't involved you know I took my one eth payment and walked away from that but yeah after that I found Unis

swamp and uh uh I worked there for for two years I started out doing like front-end work not much smart contracts uh and uh and then for V3 I ended up writing about half the code there um and when I when I left to become an adviser I was I was the Eng Le of V4 so I designed a lot of uh some of the some of the core V4 features like you know implemented the single 10 and and all that stuff you can see on GitHub um and yeah I left about a year ago to build eobo focusing on Stark net uh as a promising later too using ZK uh ZK rollups or validity roll Tech um big

believer in ZK um so I I figured that you know no one else could build an am as well as I could on Stark net and and it felt like a good opportunity yeah so I I got a the crypto um late 2020 just before all the fun really started um I'd always wanted to be like the TR Finance Guru like Investment Banking private Equity all that and 2021 was a very interesting year with Co and I was kind of just glued to my computer doing whatever I could to find alha and kind of just got me obsessed with with crypto and 20202 came around and everything kind of like a but I stuck around started writing my own research um I ended up

working for a consulting firm called win-win gaming who like designs tokenomics for web 3 games so that was like my first real crypto job I guess and then um kind of slowed down for a little bit I was planning to get back in finance I had an internship lined up and I just GED this Revelation that like this is not what I want to do and so I started deing a bunch of people on Twitter trying to find whatever I could and got a a job at Deli digital just doing research and Consulting work and then this January I joined the star Foundation to help out with research and growth so yeah very excited to be here love it yeah thanks for joining guys I

mean it's a super interesting history Moody like you know working on Unis swap kind of you know being a selftaught engineer kind of leading up to that right you know you name on the Unis swap V3 and then and then engineering lead at V4 there was like this major turning point when it came to decentralized exchanges obviously there was a whole like amm innovation but it it feels like the most significant Innovation since that original X YK model has been hooks so could you kind of describe what Hooks are at like the fundamental level and then we'll get into some of the the ins and outs of vubo yeah so in uniso V4 uh they were

called hooks uh when I when I was working on them uh I think the way I thought about them at the time was that they just are uh sort of a a privileged actor uh that gets to interact with the pool before anyone else so if you if you want to use a particular pool with a hook then you're just saying that this hook has uh authority of this over this pool before anyone else uh it can even free swapping on the pool or uh uh but basically it gets to choose what can happen on that pool um I believe that Unis swap before hooks are are much more customizable now today than than they were uh when I was working on it um but yeah in eobo we

have something called extensions which uh really is that uh aligned with that that that way of thinking that principle that hooks are just another user that gets to do whatever they like on the pool before you get to touch it and and what what is that uh add in the structure of the pool like what kind of efficiency generally like how does that improve the liquidity mechanism yeah so uh it's it's incredibly simple and uh and and it's like design but uh it lets you do a lot of really interesting things like you with you can think of them as uh really an extension of the core protocol because uh they

they can do things like add liquidity or remove liquidity before a user does a swap uh or or they can look at some other state like for example for TM we we have all these uh these orders that execute over time uh that are aggregated uh it can look at that additional State and combine that with the pool state to to have a different type of swap logic happen when the user interacts with the pool um and uh and yeah you can create these like New Order types uh you can collect additional data just like the Oracle and you can provide new features to other protocols via the Oracle um yeah there there's really there's lot you can do just with that simple idea

that this this contract can do anything it wants before anyone else yeah yeah that ultimately like we're we're building this like parallel Financial system they have all of these different order types because it's manual on uh centralized exchanges offchain but then we're kind of building out this more dynamic system onchain that can represent that and then and then some right supersede that that functionality um when you were looking at like deployments like where to deploy and you ultimately landed on Stark net for the initial akubo deployment was it just like okay this is a new ecosystem they don't really have a DEX yet and like each ecosystem really needs you

know lenar a DEX in order for it to flourish or you know generally what Drew you into Stark that yeah so so there were a few dexes on on stet when I came the one was Jedi swap sis swap uh my swap um those were already on on starnet um they they were all missing concentrated liquidity and concentrated liquidity is a big zero to one in the amm taste if you don't have it you can't provide competitive pricing uh and there's very few people who uh for some reason the intersection of like good engineering and just understanding like high school algebra is like a very very small number of Engineers uh so uh so yeah I happen to be one of those Engineers that can

Implement a concentrate liquidity amm safely uh so uh yeah I saw it as a big opportunity for uh for uh me personally um to co-build this on Stark net but I only saw it as an opportunity because I believe that Stark net has a lot of potential um and some of the things that make uh Stark net so interesting is like the native account abstraction for example uh a lot of chains are still struggling with that you know you still have to send approvals on on a lot of evm based chains I believe breaking compatibility with evm is what allowed them to do that um and uh it's it's a huge uh Improvement in the user experience which today we're still struggling to get into ethereum um with

5792 and 7702 the the new eoa uh account stuff um and uh and yeah so it sounds like a small thing but it makes a huge difference and uh and then also like I I really believe in uh in validity rollups uh as the way to scale ethereum I think optimistic growups are uh sort of just a pit stop and and you know you might get stuck in that pit stop um and and starkware and Stark now they're they've been pioneering this tech for the longest so that that's that's really why I gravitated towards them I also was interested in Cairo Having learned it and uh I think for the first time I took a a base camp in

2021 um and uh yeah I I was interested in I'm I'm very much interested in this like optimization and efficiency Frontier and I think that Stark starkware and Stark are pushing it and if you're trying to build a roll up you know you're worried about scalability and that's that's you should be building on the efficiency front tier for for ZK Tech and you know smart contracts optimization and that sort of stuff so I I love the mental model like that that you describe because validity rollups I I agree are are the path forward and I've even started to to move away from this mental model of like the layer one layer two layer three 456 like this

hierarchical model feels outdated it feels more like we're we're moving towards this this path where there's just like just State modules just like Blobs of state that just exist and send ZK proofs to one another and and share state that way and prove and verify each other's State and you know that could lead to things like interrupt you know and and ultimately break away from this this hierarchical layer one two3 model um in that world I think you know we end up with these venues of liquidity that like go liquidity goes there for a certain purpose like you know we might route trades to Stark net for like a

trade and then it might route back to base or arbitrum or something right and and you can kind or a lending borrow right we might just send liquidity to the place where the highest interest rate is and then we end up moving that liquidity back and all that with chain abstraction happens you know underneath the hood maybe there's a couple of transactions but it gets abstracted away so I I I think that mental model is where we're headed and you know the the chain abstraction natively baked into into Stark net as well as the validium uh the validity rollup design I I think gets us there um Benjamin I mean is there anything that you think is important to add when it comes to like the the native features that are available on Stark net that aren't

available anywhere else what do you think draws in like you know the the the applications that you know like a Kubo this this got you know built on starnet it didn't get built on you know some other layer too you know anything to add why why that is yeah so I think a lot of it has to do with our future implementations with Bitcoin um right now Stark net in the future is really going to be the only dual settlement rollup where you have access to all of ethereum's liquidity and all of bitcoin's liquidity and I mean just just thinking about that like the applications that that that inherently unlocks are are really insane so I've like been thinking about this potential

app that you could create to like just onboard people and it's super simple it's just like a mobile app right and you can buy Bitcoin and ethereum and you can use something like sphere another payments thing just have super easy wires you route your Bitcoin or ethereum purchases through Kubo which gives you the best pricing and then you can keep it on Stark knat and you have like no trust assumptions because Stark knat has native Bitcoin and Native Eats in the future so I just think there's a lot of applications that can take advantage of that composability and being able to have access to the two top crypto assets without any trust permissions is really powerful yeah yeah absolutely Moody how how much did the the the Stark net

vision for was it mostly the validium style rollup that Stark net had designed how much did the Bitcoin ethereum dual Settlement vision play into your decision to to land a Kubo on starnet um I mean you know I I started working on uh ubo before I really ever thought about you know the idea of star knet expanding to to bitcoin I'm very excited about the idea today um I think I think you know it sort of plays into uh one thought I had when choosing Stark net which is that you know proving cost is going to be the bottleneck for the for the scalability

of rollups and you know getting that down as much as possible means more more frequent proofs uh maybe smaller proof and maybe that you know makes it easier to settle on bitcoin I don't really know but uh but you know uh I I think uh yeah I'm sort of obsessed with that uh the idea of just building the absolutely most efficient uh smart contract protocol and uh and so I I was I was very much drawn to that part of uh starkware and Stark division with the Cairo VM and uh and uh and like the specialized proving infrastructure Maybe

ought to drill into the optimizations a little bit deeper I I am curious to understand and and the thesis at a high level it it is perfectly intuitive right if you have the most gas optimized decks then all of the liquidity aggregators the cow swaps the machas you know all all of these that are that have significant distribution that frankly that's where I make some swaps usually it's cow Swap and they tap into all the liquidity sources so being the most optimized decks you would be getting the the the orders routed to your exchange and then obviously that you know capitalizes fees and pays the liquidity providers on on the decks um and there's inherent Network effects there so it it

you know is that the thesis what what am I missing as part of that you know optimization thesis and then also what are the optimizations that you made on a Kuba yeah that's definitely the thesis I think if you're building platform you know you want to have the absolute smallest possible overhead for anyone who's building on top and as well as you know anyone who's just directly using it um so if you're building you know a Unis swap hook you might be able to make it 10% 15% cheaper with an extension and that could lead to that could directly lead to to more volume from from aggregators better execution for your users especially in the case of something like T you know those are

long-term orders they they're executed every time the pool is touched so you want the pool to be touched more frequently so you can get better execution um so the the lower the gas cost it it just directly improves uh everything that's built on top of it yeah go ahead what hit us what are some of these optimizations yeah so uh we have a couple of big ones a lot of them are actually just Arbitrage of like poor solidity B code generation uh some of them is like uh you you know if you're if you're talking between smart contracts that you control you know you can you can actually uh save a lot of gas costs just on things like ABI encoding and

decoding um you know what one optimization we have which I think is kind of fun is we know the swap function will be called the most often so when a when a call comes into our contract we want the swap we want to check to see that the swap function uh might be what they're calling before we check any other functions um and that's that's called the function selector table and and and solidity um so what we did was we mined a function selector for the swap function which is all zeros and that bumps it to the top and makes it the cheapest function to call and so if you're doing uh like 10 swaps you know we've saved you like 4K gas which is it's it's a small savings but you know uh like over like in general we get that 30% by like adding up many many many

small savings not not uh you know one or two big going else everyone else would have it Moody is like the like the Elon of uh of dex's like just slashing cost left right they add up over time you're basically running Doge for solidity yeah yeah there's a lot of waste there's actually insane amount of waste uh not so much fraud in in in Coen but there's a lot of waste um and uh yeah it's it's it's addictive uh because you can d directly see the results of every commit every change uh you can see in the diffs you know this change saved 100 gas this change cost 200 200 gas but we need it uh yeah it's

it's never ending and I I think probably there is a theoretical limit to how cheap you can make it uh and I've tried to get as close to that as possible and you know every time I deploy a new version I I do some uh performance testing and you know I look at the the trace see where gas is being wasted and and try to get it even better why did you decide to spin out build a Kubo on your like kind of on your own um and not Implement these changes into Unis swap uh yeah I mean that that's uh that's sort of a multifaceted question I think some some of it is that

like uh you know there there's some things I wanted to do or or how I believed you know a prot call and a dow and and a company should be organized and work together uh that like I think fundamentally I could never Implement at at Unis swap um for example I think a protocol should make Revenue EO protocol made Revenue since day one uh the very first version on Stark net took a withdrawal fee uh and that protocol Revenue goes to the Dow um I believe protocols should be run like companies not not Charities I don't think they should be giving out you know hundreds of millions of dollars for you know potentially a negative Roi uh so uh

so yeah that's that's very much uh a big part of it is just the economics of it and the setup of it and you know I was around when uh uni was created but I didn't you know especially at that time in my career I wasn't very experienced so I didn't have a big say in you know uh the tokenomics or you know Revenue uh but you know I I see sort of how the Dow operates and uh the difficulty to do something simple like turn on the fee switch and I see you know how uh Unos swap blbs uh runs an interface which now charges the fee which in my opinion is not to the benefit of of the protocol or the token holders um and uh yeah those are a lot of things

that I you know they're they're very much executive decisions that I didn't have a a big hand in um and uh yeah that's that's that's probably the biggest part of it I I got a couple more questions just somewhat on this on this train of thought like you're you're saying that you know protocols ought to ought to earn Revenue that is somewhat of a controversial opinion these days as obvious as that sounds um and and so what you're saying is that even with the revenue that aubu is is charging customers and Traders it is still more price efficient than trades that exist on on some of these other dexes yeah I mean we we designed the uh

this protocol fee uh to to not incur any gas on swaps which is the most called function um and uh and also to to basically tax the most extractive behavior um and uh and so there are some situations where you know we'll have for example this this really is a downwards pressure on tvl uh but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's like negative for uh for uh for pricing efficiency uh because the the fee is charged on the principle you deposit so if you are more Capital efficient then effectively the

fee you pay is smaller so it's sort of it's an incentivization to uh or really just ination to to to not be Capital efficient uh I don't know if the double negativ is easier to understand um but uh but yeah it means that you want to make your positions tighter uh which will be better pricing for the user and you earn your fees back and and cover the withdrawal fee more quickly un understood yeah so so more incentives for more Capital efficiency incentivizes liquidity providers to concentrate liquidity in the most capital efficient way so that they can optimize their their fees and their incentives I I think it makes sense um and and so one

one more question on this on this train of thought and just like generally how you're seeing arguably Unis swap Del leading decks right at least you know had been and and now like kind of building out in your own you know somewhat Divergent Direction like use swap you know most notably launched uni chain recently do you think that and and so now you've gone and you've deployed a smart contract application on Stark net you've also deployed the star uh the the smart contract app implementation on evm are you thinking about an app chain route do you think do you think Unis Swap and and the decision they made to launch uni chain was the right move why

or why not why are you thinking about doing that or or is it not right for you um yeah I was never big on the app chain idea I think uh yeah I think it's kind of like uh you know liquidity is fragmented let's make our own chain where all the liquidity will live and now the liquidity is even more fragmented does we have another chain um is the you just because you have another chain is with your app on it doesn't mean people are going to prefer it to you know Bas which has or Stark net which has you know 10 other apps on it uh they're already they're already on base why would they want to

like move their quity to another chain just to do one Swap and then move back that incurs a lot of additional costs and if you're talking about Capital efficiency that is not the most Capital efficient way to do a trade um so yeah I'm I'm not a big believer in app chains um but you know I think uh yeah I I really I can't speak to to their motivations for doing it because it's been a while since I um since I work there yeah I mean I think I think users would probably tend to agree with you too if you look at the amount of at the number of people actually using Union chain at the M man ladies gentlemen anons and D Jens it is stable coin

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Redstone exhibition [Music] today subtle subtle shots fired yeah they just they didn't really get much liquidity like I I think yeah I think you guys are right like it was a major launch you know there's a lot of hype around it and and it theoretically felt like kind of the right move but like just you know to own their sequencing they're working with flash Bots that whole thing but you just didn't see users migrate their liquidity there they just didn't really see the value proposition of it Moody any anything anything to close that Loop yeah not really I got I got one thing but like

kind of just like a movie could honestly speak better to this than I can like kind of while we're just talking about the way eobo was designed I think the the tokenomics are also like a huge highlight to this like like uni uni Swap and like uni and all these other like D5 1.0 Tok were were not designed to be extracted but they were definitely designed to benefit like the people who created it and the Kubo I feel like kind of went down the different route with the 100% circulating Supply um you know like the 33% air drop 33% of the team 33% of the treasury but the most interesting aspect to me was that like the treasury swapped out of their their distribution over a two month period which effectively enabled

users to buy in at like a very low cost I I think the marphy cap was probably around like 10 million FTV and now it's sitting around 60 so giving your users like a chance to basically like get like like purchase tokens directly from the treasury at like a a fairly low price is like a really good way to like attract almost like a cult of of followers and people who want to see it succeed because they have a direct Financial in set to do that Moody were you inspired At All by like some of the D5 1.0 ogs like we had Andre Crone J on the podcast and and kind of spoke about like the fair launch of yfi um I I was around in like defi summer 2020 and like farming Sushi and

yams like did you learn anything or take any lessons away from that period of Defi and implemented in in today's designs um yeah I think um I've I very much think that iOS are not really a bad aide and concept I think um I think we didn't have the right tooling for it I think TM is the missing piece of the puzzle and uh and yeah I really wanted to you know Blaze that trail and see if I could make it happen I think possibly you know 10 mil the Dallas sing it's its share of tokens

at 10 mil was a bit uh was a bit low uh and maybe that has to do with Market timing uh but you know it also did create a lot of uh stakeholders at a low price which are really emphatic Believers and and and Bulls for the protocol and I think having uh those stakeholders that are in profit is better than you know having a bunch of people who bought it at a too higher price and have lost money now so um so yeah I think um yeah it was it was it was a bit like I I mean we we basically do this today with uh the way we do safs and uh and and we onboard uh you know investors it's it's the same

thing except it's onchain without uh uh with good price Discovery so no one is getting you know too good a deal everyone s gets the same same deal based on whatever the market values it at um and uh and also it's completely permissionless so anyone can join in um so if you if you believe in a protocol you believe in a team you should be able to buy into it and that's that's sort of what the tram enables very Community aligned um could you break down TM like for anyone who's unfamiliar you know what is it why is it important yeah so uh TM sensor time weed automated Market maker the first time I saw this was on uh on a in a paradigm

blog post uh specifically about 2 a and uh and the the the idea is that you can place an order that executes over time and uh uh it's actually executing uh every uh aesal unit time uh because it we use some algebra to determine you know the next the next price based on the sale rate of one token versus the S rate of another token and the pool price and liquidity uh how much time has passed uh and uh uh and and basically you can schedule an order to execute over any period of

time you can you can have it even start in the future uh and you can tell everyone you've done this and over that period of time anyone can prepare for it by placing an opposite order that can provide some liquidity to to take in the volume um and uh it's just a very efficient way to do a distribution of tokens uh because uh when you're selling that token uh you're always getting what whatever the market values is at at that time um and everyone could participate in that s they can buy the token from you they can they can just Arbitrage it whenever it gets too low um yeah it's uh it's just like a it's a and and I think one of the key points is that that makes

it so important is that unlike an Ico uh there there's an aspect of time it's not like you just sell out some fixed amount of tokens uh so it really reduces the advantage of someone who has advanced tooling uh like like a sniper bot they they can't just buy out all the tokens instantly um it's it puts you on a Level Playing Field with someone who uh just has a thousand dollars that they want to invest it's it's kind of like a version of of legit or Echo that enables like fair market Price Discovery and you don't really have to click a button super fast to get access so for for new token launches this is something that you recommend like if we were to go back

in time and look at Trump or Melania coin right like suppose they had gone and t- wamed their initial distribution how do you think that would have played out differently than than it did um yeah I mean I I know there's a huge number of insiders and the only people who profited were you know the ones that bought uh you know in the first day or so when it was 500 mil or one bill market cap I know it's something like 10 now but uh but like uh but you know the majority of people lost money and you might be a huge Trump fan but maybe you only heard about it the day the day after maybe you were busy uh you it's already too late at that point

uh and and that's not really a fair distribution in any way uh you have to you have to have Insider information or or whatever to to get like access to to buying a fair share of the token um so yeah I I believe like TM you could two app it out over a week just sell the token and then uh you're fully distributed at that point I think that would be a much fairer launch you know you don't have this issue of like ciper Bots um that that come in and just like buy the token and have huge chunks of it uh right at the start you you think it would make sense for someone like a to conduct their protocol BuyBacks through the TM yeah I mean e eobo actually does this today with all its protocol Revenue um I

think it's the perfect tool for for BuyBacks uh it's it's you can just fully automate it make it so click the button and start just collect the revenue and buy it back whenever it's worth it um and uh it just it's it's you B basically once we've built it we don't really think about it anymore which is that if you can automate something like that that that makes a difference yeah absolutely you know I was thinking a lot about from from the celles side like you know initial token launches distributions and and anyone who has like you know maybe it's it's grants or vesting contracts that are are kind of partitioned out into the future

right they can sort of let the market know that there is an intention to sell and then that actually makes the market more efficient is what you're saying yeah yeah it it once you've once you've declared it on chain uh uh you know anyone can come and buy it and if you can do that in a way that's automated you or like it's it's like permanent uh then uh that that gives time for like buyers to show up and take the other side of that order very cool um to ra to round us out you know that that I oftentimes I've heard like uh intense are limit orders or limit orders are intense and there's

kind of like this like Duality between them um you mentioned ahead of the Pod like you're you're somewhat bearish on intense um but but really when we're thinking about t-w I can't help but think like you know it's like I'm submitting this intention to kind of like phase out of this position you know maybe two three weeks out over time could you kind of reconcile that like what what is you know the bearishness of of intense but you know the value proposition of t-w how do you kind of balance th those two ideas those Concepts um I I guess we're not we're not working on intense uh at at ebo but uh you know I don't I think they have they have

their place uh I think um you know I I guess I kind of I see K swap is like you know giving him some intent to as well and I think it works really well it's it's just sort of like uh it's like uh an open RFQ uh type situation yeah I think I think it it works really well for for getting good pricing and and helping having other people figure out where to where to Source the liquidity I think it works uh well um you know I I think um yeah t t is is is a lot like that uh you know your question has me stuck a little bit I think um yeah I I would say

uh you know t you can cancel the orders you know they execute over time I I don't know if I I've thought about much how they are like similar to intense but uh yeah I have to think about it some more this is the rollup we asked the hard-hitting questions around here gota gotta prepared uh no no I didn't mean to catch it between a rock and a hard place um it's just you know there there's a lot of Concepts a lot of these things are very very new and so it it you know it's just it's helpful I think to just kind of think through some of these Concepts so that you know we're all working with the same definitions and then we can all kind of build build up from those axioms together um but cool that that that is helpful um and and the TM I think is is

certainly something that you know deserves more attention um we're kind of we're kind of in the in the final moments here uh Benjamin I'd like to kind of hear from you as far as you know just a refresher on like where the Stark net ecosystem is today and and where it's headed you know a Kubo and Beyond you know how do how do you see this all playing out um from the Stark net side yeah so in specific regards to AO my my vision for Star then and kind of why I'm so excited is that once we do have dual sement with Bitcoin we kind of become this composability layer where you have access to the two top crypto assets and like I mean people will disagree with me but I view Bitcoin as the hardest

collateral in the world and eth as the probably one of the strongest forms of money in the world although that's kind of debated heavily today but that's like my opinion for the future and so I think if you can build this network where you have access to both in trustless fashion everything is unlocked and so you could have just really like an open Economy based off the two best assets of the world and and this is blocked by opcat so we so yeah fully trustless version opcat is the best way to do that we have the the Geniuses at starware have developed um another route to do this through collider scripts but that's

not optimal because of computation cost so the the reality is in the future we really do need op cats unlock fully trustless on bitcoin there's there's other Alternatives like BBM Bridges but bbms are always going to be a oneof them trust assumption because if you have the the operator and the Challenger colluding to steal Bitcoin from the I don't really know if it's really a bridge but just just to steal steal Bitcoin from the deposit Vault then you can't really say it's trustless if if something can go wrong so it's really one of them trust assumption and so so yeah I mean opcat is definitely the op route and I I do think we're gonna get there eventually you guys are playing politics got to convince the Bitcoin cabals of uh of Miners and Adam back and blog

blockstream to uh to to to turn that on and uh signal support I guess last question here for for Moody is like you know you started building a Kubo before this Bitcoin eth dual Vision was really played out on Stark net you know kind of like now with with this information how do you think it would look to to almost run this this accbo uh optimized decks for Bitcoin and E does it does it draw on like native Bitcoin liquidity does that live on Stark net are you able to kind of combine these two implementation or just generally like you know Stark's Vision now is very much to to you know

bring Bitcoin and ethereum worlds together make Stark net kind of like the bridge between those Worlds how does a Kubo facilitate swaps between Bitcoin and E in the most efficient way yeah so I'm I'm very excited to to think of eobo and and for the future for where eobo is uh sort of the the place where you can you can go between the two tokens um you know the the way I see it working in in the near future is is probably there's there's just going to be some Bitcoin erc20 on on Stark net um that represents uh real Bitcoin and you can Bridge it out to to bitcoin uh

trustless Le and uh I I I can definitely imagine that Stark net will become like a key piece of liquidity infrastructure for for people who are building like solvers for cross chain swaps uh things like e to bitcoin uh when you have like trustless Bridges between the two and you have validity proofs which can be uh uh verified on on the corresponding chain uh you know within six hours 12 hours or ideally much less than that uh in the future with stew and cheaper proofs um you know I think uh it's it just becomes a very very Capital efficient uh layer to to go between the two chains um and yeah I'm I'm very excited to see see what happens when all

that infrastructure comes online same here guys thank you so much appreciate you taking the time and answering all my questions and uh yeah very very excited for these uh these thesis to play out yeah thanks for having me yeah this was awesome