Unichain, Succinct’s Prover Network, and Crypto’s Trust Crisis | Expansion Crossover Roundup

Transcript

hey everyone this week's episode is a crossover between bell curve and expansion we discussed uni Chain's launch succinct big announcement fault proofs and more enjoy and then just have your ultra high scale like transactions being ZK verified and rolled up to that base layer uh as a way to build your chain and I think in the future like basically every transaction will be ZK proven like that's kind of how I see it playing out this episode is brought to you by Aries markets to learn more about Aries markets follow the link in the show notes below hey everyone quick disclaimer before we get into today's episode nothing said on bell curve is a recommendation to buy or sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and the

views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not Financial advice our guest and I may hold positions in the companies funds or projects discussed hey everyone welcome back to another episode of expansion you got me Nick Uma Jill what's going on everyone big week big week big week big week every week big week Nick it's a little scary depending on what's going on in markets Nick but uh yeah um I have a question for the uh for the group to are you guys all going to eth Denver this year or what are The Vibes that you guys have i'mna be there me and at The Hacker House let's go yeah I'm going I will not be at the hacker house I'm not a hacker but I will be in Denver

you can still come and hang out I'm not really a hacker either I just I'm just a poser you Nick yeah sounds great what have you guys heard Vibes wives for eth Denver this year like are people excited does it feel like it's going to be as big as last year subsequent years or it's gonna be trauma bonding trauma bonding for the whole ethereum ecosystem yeah seems a lot smaller like I just feel like less people are going overall honestly it's kind of nice like the bare Market Vibe conferences are better for me it almost feels a little bare Market vibesyoutube

phenomenal so if you're a fund manager I know this is more of a technical Crypt native Focus podcast but if you're a fund manager or you want to meet institutions Banks Etc this is a conference for you all right uh let's get into it oh oh and code expansion 10 so you get 10% off use code expansion 10 and uh yeah thank me later so expansion 10 we'll see you at D in New York in March March 18th to 20th this episode is brought to you by Aries markets Aries markets deployed on APS in 2022 and is now the largest lending protocol with $280 million in tvl to learn more about AR's markets follow the link in the show notes below this episode is brought to you by marinade marinade is a high performance staking

delegation platform that brings both liquidity and security to the salana network by connecting Soul holders with the best staking rates on salana follow the link in today's show notes to learn more all right I want to get into the announcements of the week here and maybe we could start with unpacking uni chain um so this has been something that's been announced for a little while uh but it went live this week and just as a reminder for uni chain they also went live um they collaborated with flash Bots um to basically create these very fast um they call it flash blocks so it's built on a te there are these successions of four roughly 250 millisecond uh flash blocks which get verified by this uh new layer which is

the uvn Unis swap validator Network um so Jill I'm very curious to get your take here because mechanically it looks similarish right to what um espresso is yeah there are elements of the uvn that are very similar to what we've built but yeah we can get into it I want to let you te it up first okay cool um and then uh yeah the other thing I mean they they announced that they're launching with 0 apps and infra Builders uh that are already either building on the app or supporting the app um it's launching as a stage one rollup already which is cool and they've got cross chain interop from day one um and that yeah we mentioned the uvn which looks a little bit like their own like homebuilt reaking uh uh like restak part of their application as well um and 65% of network fees are

going to uvn stakers um so I saw Hart posting about whether or not this looks a little bit like a covert uh fee switch um that got turned on but that's certainly very interesting I think you the uh it's purport the amount that you stake as a part of a UV there's a pretty high barrier to entry there um and the amount of fees that you get is relatively is relative to the amount of stake that you're contributing so I don't think it's just available for anyone to do but still um it's a it's pretty cool um and have they shared the details on that yet of the economics I know they shared the 65% but of what the threshold is for staking I because the uvn is not actually live yet is my understanding it's no I don't think it is either it's still in design phase

yeah um and from my understanding as well like a there's I think they're still trying to figure out what exactly the uvn really does and what they're secure but it's basically a way it's like a new uh it's an additional security layer to verify I have theories I have theories about you we need a tin file hat for these theories or what do you think Nick what um my my theory is twofold one is the reality is that like I think it's a backup for like proof based bridging that can be faster so like you could just have a committee based Bridge it's like the the uvn validator signed off and therefore you can bridge to Salona faster wherever they're getting like sourcing liquidity from or two um so that's one and then the other is

um uni chain is built on blobs and eth blobs are just like there's just not enough throughput I think and so it well maybe maybe it will scale in time maybe not but there's a high likelihood it won't and so the uvn it could be like their sort of like alt da source which they basically just become their own like side chain it's kind of like an escape hatch if if ethereum doesn't scale that's that's my interpretation their own native da their own sort of layer zero style messaging committee talk about vertical integration for an app that's interesting yeah that's all I mean that's also all of the major elements of an L1 um as well just to point that out I mean they would they would basically be their own side chain at that point uh but I I mean I think it

would be like a temporary thing I think they're you know intention is always to be an ethereum rollup but like e ethereum doesn't scale in time they they don't want to like suck and lose their business to like their competitors you know what I mean so it's just it's a I think it's a very Savvy decision Jo I'm curious what you guys think of I have other you know questions and thoughts as well but I'm curious one thing I want to say about uvn too is I mean it's interesting that they're not using restake eth right uh like why aren't they using igen layer like I I they do have their own token they're using that um I feel like these big apps are not going to really want to do restak if they do have these validator networks that's my own pet Theory yeah I was curious about that too

actually I was in um I remember in Devcon this year there was some like me Hacker House hosted by Cella um and I ran into to a bunch of the Unis swap uh people and this this was like still much earlier um in development here but they were we talking a little bit about the uvn I was this kind of interesting like this feels like even not igen lay necessarily but symbiotic has a pretty different approach to reaking where it seems like their differentiation is that they really sit down with especially like bigger Brands and help them uh because a lot of a lot of these um like big protocols they might not want to first of all they don't want to necessarily be an ABS from a branding standpoint but also they want to use their own native token as like security um so I was just it felt like they could

have worked with symbiotic or something and maybe chose not to or maybe yeah I don't know what it is but yeah it's interesting that they inhouse the entire thing I agree with you I mean I think that there's a reality here that we can all skate around for the next five minutes or just acknowledge which is that like a motivation for launching these types of things is to have utility for the token either that already exists or that's forthcoming and I think that that's fine actually like I think I don't know it's Trump's America we can say that out loud now right like I I think that it's totally fine to want to have utility for your token especially if you were in Unis swaps position where you got kind of backed into a corner several years ago with like whatever the

vampire attack of sushi Swap and the sushi airdrop and you know Sushi trying to seal all of the deck volume and users with their own token uni had to respond to that and yeah I mean it makes total sense for them to want to have utility for that for their community of holders um I mean I just think it's interesting because I feel like for the last two years all I've heard about from people is like we need to decentralize rollups and like often unless you're really deep in this people are not actually super specific about what that means I mean I know this better than most like people you know will scream about

decentralizing the sequence without actually getting super specific about what they want out of that or what risk they're trying to mitigate um and so I mean I think that it's really cool to see a major chain even though they only just now exist I'm still going to call them major chain just because they're such a big brand going this direction from the beginning at least with a design for decentralized components of the network um or of the chain itself yeah and I my understanding it is that the uvn is really solving a couple of problems I'll add a third one actually maybe it's data availability as well as Nick just pointed out I hadn't even thought in that direction but one of the

other problems that they're solving is yeah how can they get fast kind of robust confirmations um and prevent sequencer equivocation so uni chain is still using a centralized sequencer like the uvn is not a decentralized sequencer but and this is where it's like espresso and when there's a few others in this category of kind of like confirmation layers uh the layer itself the network itself is providing a confirmation on top of whatever pre-confirmation the sequencer puts out there um and I think that that's important especially when it comes to cross chain right because if you are living in this very cross-chain

world then you suddenly have many different chains having to depend on whatever the sequencer has put out there this is already the case right solvers depend on sequenc or pre-confirmation that's how they can be so fast and cheap um and so you want a way to prevent basically the sequencer from rug pulling and if you have Economic Security behind it if you have bft consensus behind it then that just radically changes your trust assumption relative to trusting a centralized sequencer on it there's also this other category of things that the uvn is doing which I won't pretend to fully deeply understand but my sense is that unlike something like espresso they are also doing validation of or

verification of the transactions which yeah I think is like a little bit more akin to Nick what you were saying in terms of being the equivalent of perhaps like a layer zero committee um my sense is that eventually ZK solves this but maybe that's just like my sense of everything is that CK eventually solves it but um I'm curious if you have take here yeah I mean I think I'm obviously biased but I think uni chain could adopt something like Opie the sync even like tomorrow if they wanted and not really require a lot of the uvn stuff to rely on like bridging uh I think one of the

problems with like basically having these really weird different trust assumptions so for example like you know maybe some chains have like layer zero tokens and then uh you know uni Chain's going to have their uvn secured tokens is that the heterogenous security model makes it really hard for people to reason about what's actually going on um and so when I see something like uvn I think it's I think it's quite interesting as a way to give utility to the uni token which I think is great um but I feel like it further complicates and fragments like the interop story uh in a in a way that I don't necessarily see as like super

positive um and yeah I think if they use something like Opie synct ZK even in the short term they could just have like really fast finality like one hour instead of seven days you know in a very native canonical way um yeah well doesn't that say I mean you got to imagine uni chain looked at hyper uh hyper liquid and thought huh that's pretty interesting um and I don't know you like they definitely learned some lessons there and it seems like they've actually probably been thinking about this in a relatively similar way for a long time and you know I I think that it's probably appropriate for l1's at

this point because we've all just thought of l1s as these big general purpose chains that we're going to do everything on but like 10 years into this experiment it's really dex's in stable coins for the most part right like we hope that there's going to be decentralized social media gaming whatever and this is a big win for op and it never it didn't actually really occur to me until just this second that you know when you look at the BD of like the big chains right like ZK sys the arbitrum the optimism optimism has been pretty focused right like who are their big wins it's coinbase Kraken Unis swap like that to me feels pretty intelligent right just in terms of the amount of uh transactions that you're going to be generating with that with that crew but I sort of feel like un chain yeah

probably paid a lot of attention to hyper liquid um and they've got all of the elements that they need to launch their own fully Standalone chain like you have to imagine it's crossed their minds right to prepare for that inevit I'm not saying that they're definitely going to do that but I would guess um yeah I would guess if eth ever like the amount of eth bridged up to UNI chain um started to drastically go down or uh everyone just wanted to trade with usdc pairs like I feel like at that point why do you really need like you just launch your own L1 right I wan I want to chime in there because like I I do think in the long term not every app

is its own L1 because there are a benefits to having shared security that you can only get by sharing a common consensus in da layer so like there I often hear this thing of like oh well if you are maximally bullish on these like really highly specialized application specific chains then they'll all just be their own l1s because they'll be big enough that they don't need to like borrow security or inherit security for something else and I disagree because if we want to have this like internet this like secure internet of decentralized applications they're going to want to collocate on one common security Zone and uh I think that's something that will play out in the future maybe it's like not clear that that will right now but I think I think it it does matter so even if like you don't that's why

alignment you're right alignment with eth who gives a [ __ ] about that like 10 years from now no one's going to give a [ __ ] about that no one's gonna give a [ __ ] about alignment with the underlying L1 it's a business relationship it's a service provider relationship not like a oh I have social layer whatever those that totally should go away but in terms of the network effect around collocating with other applications that absolutely will exist the problem with that though is that today we're not actually no one is actually using L1 security for their bridging transactions between two different rups fix that say again Uma is gonna fix that um I mean a lot of people are in

the trenches trying to fix that but like I that that's not the reality today and so I think that there's like okay the longer term vision of whether it's the eel one I think that the eel one is always going to be too slow to provide that level of you know actual security guarantee for cross-chain transactions even if yes all of these rollups are still deriving security from it like no one's waiting for L1 finality you're always going to be needing either to just trust the solver and Trust the sequencers or some other kind of fast finality layer like I I think that it's it it's kind of a hard argument for me to

see well I think I really agree with Nick that being at L1 if you look at it as a business decision actually being a rollup can be a lot better even economically so for example if you look at the amount that is paid out to stakers for Economic Security uh a lot of the top l1s pay like hundreds of millions of dollars a year for their Economic Security and okay there's arguments and you know Celestia is doing this thing where they reduced their um inflation schedule and uh I know solano's also doing the same thing but it's actually just quite a lot of money um and ZK is just going to get cheaper and cheaper like Economic Security does not inherently get cheaper whereas ZK

technology does get cheaper there's like a mors law effect so from a purely Financial perspective like it's actually cheaper to be a roll up and that's also better for your token because stakers get paid your token and then they sell your token so I think we're actually maybe already you're very close to being a world where being a full ZK rollup and getting verifiability through cryptography um instead of emissions is just better financial decision and then I think there's also a lot of other user experience benefits to being a rollup I know Mega eth has really popularized this notion of like single sequencer good um and yeah of course like the sequencer is not decentralized which

maybe has some issues but also because there's just one you can have really really fast finality really really fast pre-confirmation um it looks much more like a web 2 API than some like weird blockchain thing where you have to wait the block and you have to wait for a bunch of other transactions which is very counterintuitive like if you're building in web to you're not like oh I wait for my API request to be bundled with 10 other ones before it gets fulfilled that's weird so I think even from a ux and like developer experience perspective the rollup framework where it's like you have one guy processing all the transactions and then verifying them with ZK and posting them to some other layer is is a lot

better up to the new servers okay so I agree with the end state but let me push back on some of that um so one I think you actually can make an argument I mean yes you're paying a lot of money out to stakers but you've really printed that money out of thin air right like it's not there's a there really is a big difference in between dollar cost versus like token Equity um that you can just spin up um but the other thing too is that early stage startups don't really think in terms of you think in terms of cost but really you should be PRI PR izing growth I think and I think the important perspective here because sometimes people talk about this from like a normative desirable end State for the industry whereas I feel like the perspective that you need to think about

is who are the big companies that have leverage and what kind of swings are they going to want to take and I like I can see like the the vision of why this is so compelling is because if you can be like the L1 decks the purpose the purpose-built defi L1 Decks that maybe you're built around it decks to begin with like a hyper liquid or an atlas or a uni chain then not only are you an exchange but you also have this kind of weird call option on okay if I can become so large and I can have so much liquidity on my platform and I have that much leverage I probably can convince other apps to build around me and then I get this other Revenue stream which is just transaction fees or sequencing fees or

whatever it is from all these other apps and maybe it it like the that's why I think the the tether announcement that tether plasma chain that just came out like I know framework and bitfinex led it seems like this is what the chain that tether wants to anoint and say okay this is officially tether um yeah I'm sure some element of tether was just like hey we have an enormous amount of Leverage we have $150 billion do of market cap with the runaway stable coin why am I paying fees to something that's wildly commoditized um at the bottom so I think a lot of people are going to take swings at this but only a very small amount are going to be successful and then you are going to end up but this is like the whole history of computing right it's like centralized mainframes and servers and on premise

and then uh you know it kind of decentralizes out again um so in that in that analogy exactly the where Cloud what cloud is is what a what the modular stack is where you have a instead of a data center like AWS or Azure or whatever you have a data availability layer a data availability Network that is like your remote virtual server that is like scale out and super cheap and they're not like causing extract like charging you extractive you know costs and it's just like yeah roll rock up deploy your thing and like you know save yourself the hassle of setting up your own on-prem server thing and it just to me it makes a lot of sense I actually

don't think I think people just still haven't woken up to that reality and and and they have this idea of the L1 premium or what have you but like I just don't really see a strong argument for like what what's the difference between tether having their own L1 versus their own rollup um in terms of they can still be a platform they can still absolutely be a platform they still have their own chain Etc but like it's almost like now you're conflating your business you're trying to be an infrastructure provider at the same time as you're trying to be this platform I just don't think that's going to be like a a long-term strategy that people that people care about and again the network effect around wanting to share security and collocate with apps uh I think will end up being strong it's not strong apparent now but it will so I

I don't know I just disagree I think you're right that really big companies for example tether it kind of makes sense for them to build an L1 because they have the resources they have the brand and they probably want like full full control of this deck so for example Google builds its own data centers but that's Google uh every single other company uses um you know AWS or these clouds and I think even in terms of go to market timelines building a rollup is much much much faster than building an L1 um um and there's even like other factors that I think a lot of people don't consider so for example even if you build an L1 with the cosmos SDK my understanding is it's actually a

lot harder to get it like listed on exchanges because they have like a lot higher integration costs and blah blah blah and rollups you know ethereum is this like standardized framework and that has a lot of benefits in terms of making it interoperable and like getting all these other parties to integrate and if everyone's building their own L1 that kind of like that benefit of blockchain is like kind of lost I I agree I also but I I actually don't think that we're in disag I'm just disagreeing on the path that it takes to get there um like even Nick like I so I think there's a there's a strong urge and like in order to get to cloud computing you had to do on premise right like it first it was actually mainframes and then there was like the actually uh

you know website era where every website was its own server and then you had on premise and then you went to cloud and so I think and actually there's a there's an analogy here with um like foundaries um like all the ibms and the chipmakers of the world used to run their own foundaries too until tsmc basically did the Pure Play Foundry business model um so there's like this strong there are all these advantages right like you can see why someone sitting in tether seat would be like I should want to have my own L1 but then eventually the reality does hit most of those end up being unsuccessful and then you do have these like services like a cloud sort of back end uh but to do that you have to scale really aggressively um which is why I like the the vision of

this was the original thing that got me interested was like the massive blocks intense scalability at the L1 single slot finale um but I don't know if ethereum is planning on going that way or if they have a different view of the world but I think that's the if I could wave a magic wand I would love to see that same Focus for I think that's the way to go for ethereum also but I mean just to bring it back to op and their strategy which I think is kind of where you started this like they've got all of these big brand names I think I could make the case that any of those big ones we mentioned uni chain Kraken coinbase with base obviously um even some of the others they have like World chain like they all could have been in this

category like Uma just said where they're like all right I should you know like Google with cloud like I should own the full stack and it's a criticism I hear sometimes of op like I feel like generally the vibe is that op is winning out of the stacks because they do have all of the big hubs of distribution on board but it is the risk that they take that at some point These Chains these projects are going to say we want to go build our own chain I don't actually think that's as big of a risk as I sometimes hear people make it out to be because you you look at like apple right like apple I think one of the smartest companies in the world they never said

we need to run our own cloud infrastructure like they pay other players for that right they ize in what they do really well and they have their own business model and I think that that may play out as well with some of these larger chains so I I think it's more about that I actually I I think that we do end up having a lot more chains as rollups whether it's on ethereum or anywhere else um but I think that it more comes down to those business model considerations as opposed to some like cross chain shared security Dynamic that comes back to ethereum yeah and uh I don't know maybe

something that just has to play out is you have to have a bunch of hyper liquids like I could imagine right like hyper liquid launches they said oh we're not just a per deck we're new L1 and then they don't attract that ecosystem of apps and everyone was like oh yeah it's actually just a perex and Ono is actually just a lending protocol and whatever and then all of a sudden it's like oh yeah these are all Just Apps and they don't deserve this L1 premium like this L1 PR premium that they get now and then that would be a huge disincentive to you know do this I think eventually specialization wins out for sure so I'm completely on that page too quick shout out to today's sponsor Aries markets Aries markets deployed on apts in 2022 and is now among the top 10 lending

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exposure to salana whether through the provisioning of custodial or non-custodial yield integrating staking rewards into salana Financial products or leveraging Marin's best and Market rewards rate for revenue and treasury management whether you're in defi trafi or somewhere in between marinade has something for you to learn more about marinade follow the link in today's show notes Uma I want to uh turn the focus to you here because you had a big big week uh you had the um prover uh testnet go live so congratulations Round of Applause here uh but can you give us a little bit of a sense of like just starting at a high level um uh what you guys just launched or went live with this week yeah um so for some background we've been building a ZK VM uh called

sp1 which basically makes ZK really easy and simple to use and the reason I'm really passionate about rollups is because you know we think that every rollup is going to be ZK with these ZK VMS um but even with the ZK VM there's still a lot of um you know it's it's hard to actually generate proofs because it's like a really intensive workload and so a pro network is kind of like you can think of it as a cloud offering for ourz KVM so in the Pro network instead of like you generating proofs on your laptop you can send it to our Network and it's a decentralized protocol to coordinate a bunch of provs all across the world to generate proofs uh for sp1 and in that sense I guess it looks

pretty similar to like mining where you have like a bunch of you know miners all across the world that are mining these like hashes to secure Bitcoin and with our protocol we want to have a bunch of provs all across the world generating proofs to help secure like all chains in the future um what we launch with the test net this week is kind of like stage one of building out the whole network so uh what we launched is like a way for anyone to interact and like generate proofs and send it to the network uh so that's phase one um phase two which will be in like one to two months will'll be kind of going to the other side of the market and

letting anyone connect as approver and then phase three will be like the full protocols live midet uh Etc um so yeah that's like what functioning the test net is it's like just letting anyone send requests the network and generate proofs with it um there's also like you know beyond just the protocol the I think the thing a lot of people really liked about the Tet and uh yeah my Twitter DMS are all like begging just it's completely uh destroyed because everyone's just begging for invite codes is um we had a bunch of like fun applications of ZK that users could kind of interact with um on our testnet website and they're actually pretty addictive and like

pretty fun so you should I don't know if anyone here played but um you know I played yeah uh yeah so we had a few different applications like oh you know you can prove an ethereum block um you can play ZK Flappy Bird where you play Flappy Bird and then generate a proof of your high score um and we had a few other fun apps um and so we kind of made it this like video game theme and yeah people seem to really really really enjoy it it's so good also just like the aesthetic of it it took me immediately back to being 14 years old in like 2004 sitting at my parents desktop computer just the detail oriented nature of how you guys went about the actual product

experience and the vibe of it was so strong I think it's the strongest product release I've seen in crypto in a really long time I'm curious if you can share any of the backstory you said that your co-founder was super involved in the actual product development design right yeah I mean I think we started with being like we want to do our PR Network testet but and we've been building with ZK for like years and you know we're in like cryptography math rust engineering world and we feel like no one has kind of done ZK Justice if that makes sense like zk's always just been this like very abstract oh it's Moon maath oh it's complicated and we wanted to kind of show the world ZK in a

way that was like fun and understandable so that was like our biggest inspiration and we're like okay what's like a way to make ZK fun and um that's kind of how we came up with the concept of making like these games that are ZK provable and also another reason why it's like for the first time kind of possible to like for example ZK proof Flappy Bird is because of sp1 and like the tech we built because before if you wanted to ZK proove anything it would be impossible because you'd have to slave away on like custom circuits for months so it's really difficult but now you can just like write normal code and ZK prove anything so a few Engineers on our team who mostly do front-end were able to like ZK prove all these random things in

like you know a month worth of time by writing normal code like they don't know cryptography at all um so yeah that was like the backstory um what's happening on the back end because like one thing I've really appreciated about it was it does abstract all of that away from me as the user I'm just like okay cool like now there's like a magical proof of my very low high score but like can you walk us through what's actually happening there and like who who consists today of the network approvers generating this right now the network is just it's a network of size one so it's just us like we're generating all the proofs on the back end test net to be expected yeah it's a it's a test net and

then in phase two of the test net we want like everyone to connect and you know become provs um what actually happens on the back end is basically when you like connect your wallet so for for the test n you have to deposit like real usdc so it's like 10 usdc deposit and that actually pays for the proofs so basically you sign a transaction that's like a proof request transaction that's like here's you know my public inputs here's like the program I want to approve and then the network generates the proof um and like sends it back to you cool I dig it all right Uma I've got a question for you about uh so you had

also a this accompanying document like a crisis of trust and you outlined some use cases for ZK in the future that I wanted to poke at a little bit but before we get there can you actually just for listeners that might not have a great mental model for what approver network is can we start with the the mental model of what like a staking pool operator sort of is like right like just staking and l1s in general and in your announcement you had this sort of transition of blockchain's different consensus mechanisms from proof of work to proof of stake to ZK proofs so you just walk through for listeners what that transition is going to be like and I'm just very curious to understand like what are the economics look like of being aover versus a Staker what sort of

Hardware do you have to run do you imagine that getting done locally or like what is the trade-off of individuals proving versus large centralized proof generation like what does that all look like um yeah so with uh proof of work which was like the original way that blockchains were secured you had a bunch of people all across the world who are basically securing like the tip of the Chain by doing a bunch of work that's verifiable um and then you'd come to consensus by like the branch of the chain that had the most work attached to it and then improof of stake uh we kind of replaced some of that we replaced that work because it's wasteful like you're just having people mind these

like sha hashes uh with economic security and money so it was like you had capital you would stake your capital and then if you kind of try to Fork the chain uh you get slashed uh and that's how we got verifiability and then I think the final evolution of this and this actually ties back to what I was talking about earlier where ZK is actually cheaper than proof of stake um is that instead of having verifiability through Economic Security and relying on this like staked Capital uh you can just have ZK proofs of you know what happened with the latest transactions uh and then that can be settled to some base layer that's doing consensus um so for example like you you

still need a base layer that's doing consensus on like The Ordering of stuff but then you can actually like scale that infinitely with ZK um so I think right now like it is actually very similar to what I was saying earlier right now people like build l1s and have you know proof of stake security uh because that's kind of like what's been done but with ZK it's actually cheaper and more efficient to leverage an existing base layer and then just have your ultra high scale like transactions being ZK verified and rolled up to that base layer uh as a way to build your chain um and I think in the future like basically every transaction will be ZK proven like

that's kind of how I see it playing out yeah I I love that framing I mean the way that I see it is like in theory the way things were supposed to go from like satos original vision and the way that blockchain started including ethereum was like everyone was supposed to run their own node and actually reexecute every transaction and verify everything themselves and then that just turned out to not be practical because um it's hard to set up a note it's expensive it's just just a pain in the ass like a terrible user experience like I if that was actually the way that everyone had to use a chain like we wouldn't have any users right now um and so then people kind of like got lost in this I think mistaken security model blockchains

which just like oh it's all about Economic Security the validators actually run the chain and we just trust them to not cheat on us that's never was never supposed to be the way it was supposed to be like that that just boils down to like a committee based assumption which is like not really a big step forward from like Web Two itself right so um we were always supposed to be running nodes and and validating things the thing is that that doesn't scale for [ __ ] because you have to download the whole block that's where data availability comes in and then you have to reexecute everything yourself and uh that's where ZK comes into play any kind of like execution proofs it's like instead of having literally every billion PE person in the world that's using this chain have to know about and verify

everyone else's transaction we just have one guy who's running aover do it and you can just verify it you know with with very very little work so like ZK is really like the endgame for bringing us back to yeah this and and the combination of that and data availity sampling brings us into a world where you can run this light and actually verify everything that's happening on chain directly yourself interact with the chain directly hyper bullish thanks for thanks to sing for making ZK sexy yeah you know what's funny about that too is uh we'll talk about arbitrum bold that they just launched this week but the origin of fraud proofs actually I think it was proposed back in like 2014 or 2015 and it was to get around the honest majority assumption uh so the

idea was basically that you could have one full node generate uh fault proof and then light nodes could uh verify it or um so yeah it's just interesting that like this idea is maybe coming back and we're actually giving blockchains a big upgrade what is the incentive for just to be very clear like who is generating the proofs and then what is the incentive for you to basically run these because that's the thing that I still don't fully understand actually even with Celestia as well Nick um like light noes like what is the incentive to actually run these things for running approver it's really simple like people want to pay for proofs because they're paying for like securing their chain and then you run aover and you get those fees um so yeah there's that's like a very simple

explanation and in terms of like the market size if you look at like oh what's the market for ZK proving um you know if you let's take like for example the amount paid out to like staking emissions as like a comparison I think today there's like a billion plus dollars paid out per year in terms of staking emissions which is the reason people are motivated to run nodes for you know a normal Network and let's imagine that ZK is you know 10x cheaper than that um and provides like the same amount of value then that's already like a nine figure like annual demand side for proof Generation Um so yeah I actually think like the trans the fees

for proving will be substantial is the vision that it gets paid out in each ch token and if I'm running approver on my laptop at home then I will be receiving from all of these different chains or like how do you see that playing out um I don't think it makes sense well right now with staking yes it gets paid out in your native token but in the end like the token is swappable for yeah of course whatever currency the person wants so like okay sure maybe like optimism could have I I'm not saying this is going to happen but like optimism could have op inflation to pay

for proving but it doesn't matter like that inflation can get swapped before it gets paid to the approver or it can get swapped after like it's kind of the net end outcome you can see what I'm getting at here though right is like right now there is this kind of beautiful like lock in for like each token economy that I think projects and their community or incentivized to maintain I mean even this relates back to the uni chain thing right like we can call a spade a spade like part of the motivation for uni chain is probably to give the uni token the utility of securing the network it's it's just I fully think that ZK is the

future but it's interesting to see what that might do to um just incentives around having a token and having a community based around your token all of that you can still have a token like it's actually I would argue it's better for your token that it's not getting paid out to people who are then gonna go like sell it to pay for like their AWS bills to run their node you know yeah yeah yeah Jill I we talked about this a little bit but I I really do think like because there's this kind of idea of like a token sync right which is okay um I basically have a bunch of inflation um you know On Any Given year and I want to make sure that that's not or I've got token unlocks or something like that so

you got to design something in your protocol which incentivizes people to park the token right um and so you see a bunch of these like so the simplest one is just yeah staking but then there's all these sorts of I don't know anything from stuff that actually does make some sense to more like rubbe gold Bergie like you really have to squint at it to understand why this exists or the friction that this introduces but totally you know I don't know I kind of just think that the way to solve this is to just create good products that generate a bunch of Revenue and then you don't have to create a token Sy and do anything like that because people would just want to own the token because the product's really good and there's Revenue that's associated with it yeah I hope I hope that that's I don't know but

like look at Bas they make so much money from their sequencer um honestly for them paying for proofs would be a very small fraction of like the real money they earn and they don't even have a token right like it's just you ease fees for their sequencer totally yeah which is pretty substantial um as well like if you look at any l2's um like p&l uh you see the their revenue gets bucketed basically into uh there's a big bucket of that which is basically just L1 pass through right so like if you look at roughly like any like an arbitrum or something like that arbitrum one uh about half of their revenue is actually just passed through into the L1 for ethereum so yeah it's pretty substant

although obviously that would be much cheaper if you you were using like celesti or alt da or something like that I think most of that is just da fees so it's probably less depending on the L2 but Unis swap Labs is rolling out the red carpet and launching a $15.5 million bug Bounty this is the largest bug bounty in the entire history of crypto to anyone that can find a critical bug with the UN swap V4 protocol this bug bount aims to make it the most rigorously reviewed code base ever deployed to ethereum now the Unis swap name is basically synonymous with security $2.4 trillion in cumulative volume has passed through Unis swap V2 and V3 without a single hack so Unis swap V4 is dedicated to bringing that

same level of security and transparency to the V4 protocol so if you want more information or eligibility or scope or Rewards or payout or any of that good stuff there is a link in the bottom of the show notes I highly recommend that you stop listening right now go to the show notes click the link head over and tell them that I sent you start earning money today all right um ivoc so you you you guys also put out this accompanying document which is the crisis of trust um which is very cool I don't know if this looked like maybe a part one or I don't know if there's other stuff coming after this but um you kind of outlined some future use cases for ZK in general um so some of these were um like kind of more media use cases and this is something

that I feel like I've been hearing more and more that there's just slop right like the the ratio of noise to signal is higher than it's ever been especially on social media and it's only going to get exacerbated by AI so I think people are pretty excited about this idea of Provence um and so verifiable media verifiable Hardware trustless attestations that type of stuff do you want to just walk us through with some of these I have some thoughts on the media side of things just because I've thought about media for a long time U but like I would be curious you know when you look out into the world of like super future for ZK you know what is the exciting the exciting stuff ZK outside of blockchains is really exciting to me as kind of taking this technology Beyond just you know

crypto as we know it and definitely within that category verifiable media is very very cool uh so for some background you know it's today on Twitter um I'm sure we've all seen those really bad quality Bots that are just like replying to everyone um but also we with generative AI we have this phenomenon where it's basically impossible to tell whether an image is real or not and we're quickly getting to the point where it's really hard to tell if a video is real or not too and the problem with that I mean there's a very obvious problems with that right like you know how can you verify that any new story is like actually telling you the truth and the idea behind verifiable media is that basically you

can have a camera sign like the image that it's taking with like the hardware so the hardware basically signs like hey I took this image at this time and or I took this video at this time but then all the images we see on the internet are not raw images CU usually those images are like way way too big or like you know they need to be like cropped filtered edited whatever and so the idea is like you apply a set of verifiable transformations to your original raw image and for each transformation you generate a proof of it and then in the end like for example you can imagine a world where all Twitter pictures come with a proof that they were taken from a real camera or physical device and edited with like a set of allowed

Transformations um to make sure that they're actually authentic and not just taken from mid Journey or whatever so I think that's a super cool use case actually um I discovered from my tweet about this that someone is already building or has built a ZK camera that does this which is really really cool um so damn cool I want one yeah me too yeah um I think uh Michel you asked a little bit about like the incentive to run a light node I think that kind of ties in really well with what Uma was just saying which like to me the question of like why would someone run a light node or you know verify things is um essentially the same thing as like why is anyone using https It's like

because I want to [ __ ] know that my email or you know I'm connected to the right website all this stuff is real because so much of my life is on the internet and I don't want that [ __ ] to get hacked so it's the same thing it's like if I want to actually have security and know that I'm this image is like actually legitimate this is real or when I sent my funds or someone says says they paid me this much I like verified it for myself I see a little check mark whatever in my UI that is the incentive and it's not going to cost anyone anything it's going to be embedded in whatever you know wallet or however you're interacting with with your chain your application it's just going to be there it's not gonna be something that you have to actually we're stuck in this

mentality of like oh I got to run an ethereum node okay I got to download this software open a terminal have my own little thing it's just going to run on your phone it's going to run on your browser and you won't think about it and you're going to feel safe you're going to get the benefits of knowing that like what's real and what's fake uh what's true and what's not you're gonna have security over all your assets that live on chain so to me it's like kind of a no-brainer I have an alternative theory for you um okay and I see people getting flamed for this take and I know I know Ceno hates this when people say this type of stuff but I actually don't think depressingly that people would do that on their own even though there are all

these benefits I just think I just don't see people doing it I think people are lazy and generally like won't do things even if it's for their own benefit if it's an extra step I do think that governments might end up mandating this um like I don't know I there's some something I thought was kind of interesting uh was I don't know if you guys saw Brian Armstrong and Elon Musk talking about potentially putting like the US Treasury like balance sheet and payment system on chain now that's not going to happen that's like weird cost string and it's but it's interest it's kind of interesting right that they're thinking like that um and it obviously is like this is I've been feeling really optimistic lately I know everyone's so bummed out I whatever like I think to me when when I got into crypto in 2017

there were all these things that felt really far off it was like Enterprise block like companies are going to build on blockchain and like icos are going to disrupt VCS and all this other stuff that if you you sounded kind of like a lunatic especially when prices were going down um but that stuff doesn't feel that far off to me anymore um and there are huge B and I think we have to go go back and revisit some of those conversations and like think this is one of those classic you overestimate what you can do in one year but you underestimate what you can do in 10 and that stuff doesn't feel that far off to me um and I think there are huge benefits to moving things on chain and I've actually one of the things I've been thinking about ZK actually is you

know there are two benefits to ZK there's the succinctness of the proof and there's the privacy and I've heard a lot of people say you know what with really interesting is the succinctness of the proof and the Privacy is not that interesting I've been wondering for a while if actually the Privacy is about to be more interesting like just imagine a hypothetical world where you moved a bunch of company infrastructure on chain the number one thing that you'd be concerned about that with is privacy and I I've been wondering actually if the Privacy thing and the reason why that would be so cool as well is I'm IDE if I had one ideological drive it would actually be privacy um and this would be not like an ideological hey I think people should be entitled to their privacy it would be a real business case

for privacy which is what got us through with like pgp back in the day too it was not an ideological thing it was businesses demanding it so I think that's I think that's spot on it's all of these things that we who got into this space in 2017 or 2014 or whatever we thought that these were like cypherpunk I don't know like libertarian ideals they're actually Enterprise Futures like okay they can be both the same time but privacy I think will get adopted because it's an Enterprise future because Circle as an example wants to go to market with Enterprises and get Enterprises using stable coins for big cross-chain payments they need privacy for that and they need to be

able to reconcile that with also like onchain verifiability that's that's where ZK comes in but I think that that's totally in line with what Nick was saying because like I as a user when I use the internet I'm not making a choice to use https like I'm not like taking a box or like my browser is taking care of all of that for me right and like the web developers who build the company's websites that I'm going to they're all taking care of all of that for me I think again I'm a huge Apple Stan whatever like I I think apple is a great example of this right where a huge part of their brand is privacy and security at actually a huge cost to them at times

in terms of ux um but like I think that they have done the calculus that that is a strong enough brand position where they want to make their user base feel safe and secure that it's worth that tradeoff to them and I think that that's the case for a lot of companies but all of these things are Enterprise it's not it's not and I I think that the way that that manifests too is social pressure I mean maybe this is a good segue into like arbitrum and bold but like why does anyone care or even know like what the security assumptions of a rollup are it's because L2 beat exists and they have this really easy to Gro

like pizza pie of green yellow or red slices that gives you an intuition for what security assumptions you're making it it that's very much akin to http versus PS and like people do care so then the Enterprises the rollup teams in this case make progress on these things I I I think you guys actually agree though Mike and Nick I think it's just where it sits is it an individual or is it a company I definitely agree I mean I just think that I like to Mike's Point like yes if there was overhead much fewer people will do it but there will my point is there will be no overhead it will just be baked in and by default verifiability by default is like kind of

what I what I believe in and I also think this kind of goes back to cryptographic security versus Economic Security blockchains will not scale with economic security because the way the economic security works is like we have to have literally as much value staked as there is secured by this chain so if we have literally the world's economy on chain like tens or hundreds of trillions of dollars every year whatever we literally need to have that much money staked if we're just relying on the the the the um the the Goodwill of all the validators right but the beauty of cryptographic security from data availability sampling and from things like sp1 and ZK proofs is like they can't cheat you so you don't have we can have like maybe just 10 billion dollars

worth of stake the only thing they can do is try to double spend or you know Fork the chain and stuff like that or or try to censor you but there's other things we can do to to like prevent that those things from happening so that's why I've always been bearish on reaking because like economic security has always been a little patch over that we're relying on unfortunately in the near term till we get to Valhalla of just pure cryptographic security or as much towards cryptographic security as possible yeah you know the other uh people used to debate that Cosmos a long time ago as well um like this is as usual they're always uh but the other thing too that's uh that's challenging with it's just not very Capital efficient um it's not it doesn't really economically make sense from the

perspective of the L1 it's not very Capital efficient um and uh the other challenge with it is there's this weird uh principal agent problem as well that's like prettyy undesirable from like most of the time like in theory you're supposed to be putting up your own Capital that could get slashed for performing in the way that the network wants to perform but usually you delegate right so the staking operators aren't even really putting up their own capital capital it's like whoever delegates to you so now I think the professional operators like in slashing events actually compensate their customers so and they have like legal uh you know there there are all these other considerations I think in practice it works but yeah it's not super ideal um so I just want to close the loop on one last Point related

to this on why not build your own L1 and why share a DA layer and consensus layer for interoperability is because if you want cryptographic security level interoperability with other apps or chains you need to share a DA and consensus layer there's no way around that and so like again most bridges now if you have a separate L1 and you're trying to bridge to each other then you're going to default to Economic Security that's pretty much it's a it's going to be a committee based thing and uh again that's not going to scale that's not going to be how this like web 3 like verifiable internet is going to work when we get to that endgame it's going to have to be or we're going to want to have it be cryptographic security for interoperability as well

anyway that that's like I totly agree with that yeah I and I think that that is what I was saying earlier I think that that is the challenge for ethereum right it's like can they be that layer are they designed to be that layer I think today probably not which is why they need these other layers to come in whether it's like Celestia for da or espresso for confirmations Etc I I think that yeah hopefully we can put pressure on ethereum to figure it out but I don't yeah I mean do does it seem like because the the road map from my vantage point is it looks a lot to be honest like

Celestia's road map right like it's Big Blocks single slot finality more blobs you know I but it doesn't seem like whenever you push that people get very upset um like there's a I saw David Hoffman tweeted out like the boat thing about there's a hole in the boat and it's like oh well do you have any ideas or like I actually like holes in boats uh look at like like don't insult our boat and I don't know I just get a lot of that um like there's not much incentive right to yeah sometimes it's it feels a little tough to to there's not much incentive until the market forces you to take a hard and I think that's starting to happen so yeah it's a good point all right let's talk about uh maybe close on Bold here um and I

actually went back and looked up some of the history of just uh fault proofs in general and like it's been a long yeah these were originally theorized like way before even rollups in general and I think arbitrum first white paper came out a year before the idea of like optimistic rollups was formalized in 20 so I think the arbitr from white paper was 2018 this white paper came out 2019 and then vitalik didn't write about rollups until I think like 2021 um so this was like a long time coming and yeah the the origins of this was to get around this security uh model Nick that you were talking about which is the honest majority assumption um which is basically what we've wound up with and the it's the ability to generate uh basically a a proof um which verifies

that someone you know behaved incorrectly and then you know you could verify it very easily and so that has been what we've been trying to drive towards with rollups for a very long time the idea is you have offchain computation in the form of rollups but uh and we just assume that all that computation is being done with Integrity but there should be a way to just prove um if there was uh if someone did something wrong um and then it should be very easy to verify that so we've been waiting for a long time it's been like three or four years um and these are critical towards getting to stage two was is a security level of uh rollups which I think arbitrum is now the closest to getting to um and I think there's two reasons for this which is one it's actually there are a

lot of considerations in terms of Designing um what these fallproof systems look like and I think the number one Challenge and you guys probably know more about this than me so correct me if I'm wrong is just the ability to cble attack right so you could very easily just submit a proof right that something is wrong there's like a a window where all transactions for the chain get shut down and reviewed and you could just keep rolling that so it's a form of attack on the chain and so you have now with arbitr we can get into some of the details but they basically have multiple rounds and they introduced a bond which is relatively High I saw 1100 e um which is very substantial in dollar terms I think what it actually boiled down to is something like six or 700 uh you have to

put up 555 in the first round and then another 79 I think after that but either way it's we're still substantially quite a bit of money um but this is also significant because you know I think a year or a year and a half ago vitalic said something to of hey I have to be I'm going to exert social pressure to move rollups towards l2s and I think that gets at the other um the other motivation here why this might have taken so long is because it doesn't really seem like there's a direct profit incentive for them to do it um because we all kind of found out that everyone's mostly okay with just trusting the L2 Frameworks um so I'd be curious what you all think about um you know this particular implementation of fraud proofs and we can get into some of the

mechanics but you know I guess the questions that I have for you guys as well is like do you think this moves the needle in terms of users adoption Etc like what do you what do you all think on that front I think unfortunately probably not really like again I think that so much of this just comes down to social pressure right I think that most users and most app developers were actually pretty comfortable with the more permission status quo like I I don't think that there has ever historically been an issue with this at least on arbitrum um but I think that the social pressure and this relates to the last conversation that we were having is really important and I think vitalic coming out and

saying that like you know we we've got to start being honest about what these l2s are and if you're not making progress to stage two then that's a problem I think l2b again is out there doing God's work on this front and trying to educate people as to what these risks are because none of these risks matter to anyone until they really matter um I think it's also a bit of it to me even it's just like it cements arbitrum in my mind as being the most mature in terms of Technology like that's a huge part of their brand that's a huge part of their identity that's a huge part in general of what I think attract so many developers and so much Capital into their ecosystem like Uma

you made this point a couple of weeks ago that you know if you look at where Capital moves it does actually like when it when you're talking about big size it does actually tend to follow where there are fewer security assumptions like I think you were talking about this in the context of Bitcoin rollups and that potentially being a bull case for Bitcoin rollups and I mean arbitrum I think has always been number one in terms of tvl base is hot on its heels but arbitrum for a long time has been Head and Shoulders above the pack so I do think it it does matter in this kind of like Zo zoomed out grander Vision type way but do I think that it meaningfully brings over dev's like

tomorrow to arbitrum I think probably not yeah I think that's my uh curiosity long term as well uh there was a John charbono wrote a post about this um you know here was descri like a basically on bitcoin L2 is making the argument that uh security actually might matter um quite a bit more for Bitcoin l2s than ethereum l2s but yeah I I you know what was very surprising to me in that post is just how little eth had migrated it up to l2s uh for the most part already it's like 2.5% and actually if you look at L2 beat um and I'd be curious Nick how you see this playing out in Celestia as well but

if you look at the amount like the lifetime amount here of let see I can go back to Max um just the the total amount here of I guess this is just ash like assets on it says total value secured so I'm assuming that's just the amount of assets on all the l2s um they break it out by canonically bridged from ethereum externally bridged and Native and if you go back in time you can see the native bucket uh was very very small back in like 2022 or 2023 um you know sub one billion and now that's grown to being actually more than at per at parity with the amount that's been bridged um so that's the basically what that's saying

is the amount of like l2s were supposed to be acquiring new users that ethereum or Celestia or whatever chain otherwise wouldn't necessarily have and so you can see that the majority of assets on these l2s are not being bridged up from Main chain anymore they're be they're being minted or bridged from other chains or something like that um you know which I which I think is um ultimately the goal and that's that's good um and so maybe that is a little bit of incentive right for you know you do want like the safest the safest sort of chamber I agree with you Jo I think it's going to take a little while uh for that to actually Ki in but if you scroll down maybe we can see the actual ethereum breakout oh never mind okay I thought

it' be by asset anyway um yeah I mean we've I've always believe that frankly like the native asset issuance on rollups and l2s will Eclipse like it doesn't make sense for the L1 to be the home of all these assets and then they get bridged up to me it's like these are their own chains they're going to have their own native assets and that's the way that it should be um and and it's already playing out and that's also why for example the why there's a more of a push for Sovereign Roll-Ups now because like paying this High Cost of having to like settle down to ethereum um Which is higher than it should be partly because ethereum is not really uh has certain like trade-offs in terms of like how

forkful it is and things like that it's like overly complex it's like it's less worth it these days like you know if you're not really trying to onboard eth assets you don't really care about that there's no real reason to be at eth uh L2 or rollup unless you want e da security for some reason but like that's I don't know I just feel like that that was kind of obvious to me and it seems to be playing out what is the Catalyst for um making l2s very secure um and actually Translating that into some sort of Market outcome right like is that are we waiting for full full stage two here um are we waiting for some sort of external Catalyst like more institutional money coming into the space and understanding

the security trade-offs like it makes sense to me in theory right that having a much more secure if an L2 is perceived to be as secure as the L1 then more in institutional money should be the the unlock there so I'm just curious if that's just like a it's a matter of time thing or yeah I'm just curious like what the Catalyst like you all see being this maybe a very Debbie Downer negative take but I think that the catalyst is always something bad actually happening like yeah I think that that's if you look historically like when did people start really caring about Bridge trust assumptions was after I don't know the Ronin Bridge all of these big hacks actually happened um I think this is something I

feel particularly with like sequencer equivocation everyone is cool just trusting the arbitrum sequencer and the base sequencer at some point sequencer is going to equivocate whether it's because it's been hacked or um something else or you know Bad actors on the other side and then suddenly everyone's really going to care about that and all of the solver based bridges are going to be broken um but yeah it it's kind of a I don't know someone else who's an optimist on this call will have a better take but that's that's my perspective um not to keep bringing up this uh but do you do you see like there's a bunch of Regulation that's happening in the US over the course of the next certainly year like it's the Focus right now is stable coins then the

fit Market structure bill but do you ever see you know big important jurisdiction like this getting opinionated on the security assumptions of how these chains get built or do you think that you know what I mean like if this was right if what we're building here has a big Capital markets or financial markets sort of look and feel to it like there's a bunch of value that's moving around people trade on it do you do you not think that eventually like regulators and governments will have opinions on this type of stuff do you think that's really far out I mean maybe in terms of disclosures I don't see them regulating at least in the US regulating the tech directly but certainly in terms of disclosures and consumer protection but I I can't keep up with what's going on in Washington I

think I read yesterday that Elon Musk had disbanded the consumer protection the the Consumer Financial Protection board so like I I don't see that happening anytime soon maybe I'm wrong about that again I can't keep up we need some verified media Uma because yeah I also it's like a blitz of information and I honestly can't tell what's real and what's not right yeah I feel like I sit down to dinner every night and my husband is like oh did you see what Elon did and I'm like I I thought that was a meme I don't know I I'm kind of into it but I don't know no yeah there was this picture of Elon wearing like the huge hat um like the really really big hat

next to Trump and I had no idea if it was photoshopped or real or whatever um and that was kind of like an inconsequential picture so it's like okay whatever but I do think there is a future where like everything will need a proof attached to it that it's real or not because otherwise we're descending into madness like quite reality is reality is Stranger Than Fiction these days yeah we need some DK proofs yeah um I've had Elon muted for a while I I like a lot of his stuff but he's I just can't take his Twitter stuff I like it's crazy um but yeah all right guys well maybe we can maybe we can wrap it here I know we're waiting towards the top of the hour but um cool this was a fun one guys

I appreciate appreciate you all and uh yeah I'll see you see you next week a