Understanding trustless scaling solutions for DeFi with Chandra from PortalDeFi.com

Transcript

foreign what's going on hi rollers welcome back another episode today here with Chandra from Portal defy I'm with the rollup AKA Rob um and we're here today to talk about what's going on in the cross chain layer 2 swap World um some really interesting things happening in the Bitcoin scaling ecosystem as as well um some some interesting new operating systems um and just some overall uh kind of holistic takes on D5 so um as always excited to be scaling uh defy pushing the limits on what's possible with this technology

um so pass it over to Rob good morning Rob how you doing G um Brothers in D5 it is uh good to be talking to you on another podcast um yeah Andy good to be back it's the first uh episode we've done in a little while so uh it's definitely definitely a good one here uh to kind of go back into our Roots about D5 and dig into uh portal defy at portal defy.com and hear from Chandra about uh what portal is building um how they are supporting the D5 ecosystem and solving uh ethereum and uh uh in general uh decentralized Finance scalability um Chandra good to see you welcome to

the show and uh maybe you could tell us a little bit about how you got started in D5 and your origin story that led you here sure um thanks for having me Rob and Andy I'm Chandra I'm the founder of portal D5 uh we got started in Portal because we saw a problem in the space where most of the activity that's happening was on centralized Exchange Pages especially cross chain and D5 came out of that a little later maybe a year or two after that during the year 2020 or 2019 bear Market where a lot of interesting peer-to-peer Contracting

applications were built on ethereum and anything from lending particular lending to uh basically staking and all of these models have really expanded and got a lot of traction and attention from the user base and our view on this and the reason why portal exists is we want users to be chain agnostic uh so you may want to keep all of your money for a long period of time in Bitcoin because it is thermodynamically secure and it's the most trusted shape but it's not really expressive so you may want to do a lot of interesting uh contracts and complex contracts on

ethereum or other chains but you want to have a seamless intermediate intermediary uh between the two chains but you don't want to have a trusted intermediary and that's the problem we're solving so do anything on any chain uh with any asset that you have but you don't have to go through custodians you don't have to go through security holes you don't have to go through uh layers upon layers of complexity that you can't really understand that puts your Capital At Risk inside I think that really helps the default ecosystem yeah I mean the the entire ecosystem uh has grown in this cross chain constellation like format where you know

you've got all these different pockets of of I guess just Capital resting in different places and I like to kind of think of it as like homes like a home base you know you've got kind of like ethereum is like the the Manhattan I've read an article about how theorem is that the Manhattan of of D5 and then you've got all these different kind of suburbs and um and places where people want choose to put their capital in almost exist and Rob and I both consider ourselves kind of like citizens of ethereum like you know I've been I've been in my home country for six days this year right like like truly where where's my family where's my life it's all on the chain it's all in this kind of digital world so I'm curious how you guys have taken

this like this mental model of this you know perhaps if you share this constellation idea or kind of what your mental model is for uh the current landscape of D5 um and let's just start there and then we'll kind of dive into where Portal fits in um and you know further there sure so we think about this as each blockchain as a specialized uh system that takes a lot of trade-offs in furthering just one object right Bitcoin is stack based very simple simple Primitives you can't write complicated

contracts on it and listen for that is you want to have security as top host in your priorities right you want to make sure that none of these contracts have attack vectors that you haven't thought about they uh you can pretty much easily reason about the uh the functioning of any uh contract or any uh anything you put on chain basically any script that's on chain ethereum breaks a slightly different approach it wants to be way more expressive it's doing complete you can write almost any contract you can imagine on there Bitcoin makes trade-offs for the sake of

security like speed and transaction fees um proof of stake chains take the other side they want speed first and you can't get the proof of work Security on there but but you can have a lot more transaction throughput other chains take web tree as their primary objective and sacrifice other things there's all this talk about the trilemmas and some how some chain is able to solve all three of them it's it just isn't going to happen we think there will be a lot more specialized blockchains each one specialized for performing a specific function um and as a user then you have mental transaction costs right like what do you

do um you have to have the security and the soundness of the money and the Securities of Bitcoin you also want to have the utility and the functionality ethereum you also want to have this this additional you know web3 uh nft stuff that's going on there's another chain that's specifically for in-game goods so you as a user shouldn't be able to or shouldn't have to know the particulars and details and the security models of each chain before you actually get to use the utility of all of those uh how do you do that first let's start with a simple thing uh your Bitcoin yes someone else's period someone says we all want to have a seamless way to

trade in and out of all of these assets right right now you can do that on Central as the continuous but centralized exchange is kind of Their Own set of custody problems privacy problems they could collapse you know they could put your Capital At Risk all of that stuff so first is being able to seamlessly swap each asset into another and then do whatever it is take considering liquid statement diverters whatever else it is that is happening on that other chain but always bring back to whatever you consider to be your unit of account which for most people is Bitcoin and eventually as the uh as the friction between doing all of those things

goes down our thesis is that all these other applications specific chains become layers on bitcoin conceptually they basically specialize in performing one thing but all your settlement happens on and storage and long duration asset value resides in launching so is that hyper bitcoinization Pro to for let's first just Define the terms uh hyper bitcoinization can comes from a Nakamoto Institute guys it's basically a speculative attack on a Fiat currency

you know and you have a superior currency eventually people start using the inferency they dump it like hot potato and all their uh savings are uh accumulated in the superior currency and after you reach a critical mass because currencies have Network effects you continue to use whatever it is the ERG team local Fiat or for for a period of time the velocity is very high um and at some point everybody starts doing their profit and loss statements in or or a unit of account becomes a superior currency and then you completely discard the inferior currency that's the thesis on how Bitcoin replaces Fiat currencies but for you to be able to get there

you have to have many of these speculative price files that you've seen 2012 was one 2017 2020 to 2021 and each successive spiral will be larger than the last one draws in more people in capital and because the supply of Bitcoin is fixed you'll continue to see more and more of these and at some point eventually fiat currency Asia currency or many Fiat currencies get replaced so that's the path to hypervicalization but to get there you can't just speculate on our trade Bitcoin against Bitcoin you have to have other things and we know that clear gateways are at risk of being closed anytime so this is the crypto gateway to uh

trade all other blockchain assets against Bitcoin and back is a necessary step intermediate step to hyper visualization and hyper Bitcoin is it like the path to that has is obviously not a straight and narrow path right it's a winding winding path so how do you like what is your path to hyper bitcoinization are there other like kind of checkpoints along the way that that you see as uh gold destinations for portal and and the

industry as a whole so for us it is to create uh so it's hard to predict where the next wave of adoption will come from right defy nobody could predict that uh nfts nobody could predict that web3 nobody could predict that no I think the next big two things that we can see or at least reason from here are uh in-game Goods right uh and real world assets being tokenized so it's hard to predict where the next thing will come from but if you build the infrastructure for those next things to be built you have a universal adapter for whatever it is that other developers can dream of

and all of that brings more and more users and option capital uh to the ecosystem and at some point this this economic system becomes self-sufficient in the sense that it's an intrinsic system it doesn't depend on a whole lot of Fiat moving in or Fiat moving out um and then it grows and grows and then becomes larger than than treadfoid to your question about do we see some Milestones along the way when it's hard to tell it's hard to tell you know I'd be lying if I told you we know what the future will be but these are all enabling infrastructure so it's it's like thinking about how

would the internet evolve in 1999 it's really hard to say um but the the enabling infrastructure will produce like as they say uh May a thousand four hours ago we had a a founder of of a bridging protocol on recently and and he mentioned it was it was arjune from connects I'm not sure if you're you're familiar and he uh he mentioned that it was Arjun from connects aren't you connected yeah so uh connects I think I heard the name yes for sure yeah can connect with a with an ex he mentioned that in his perspective all blockchain applications are inherently

infrastructure and this is a perspective that I've continued to think about since he said that because we can see that users in general these normies if you will are not excited by blockchain or decentralization they like the benefits of it maybe but I think right so so there's a sacrifice that we're making for decentralization and blockchain uh and the sacrifice the trade-off is the user the ux and what we're finding is that the u-x is too sophisticated and it's not it's not seamless enough uh to be to uh be intuitive or familiar to these users who

are not accustomed to web 2 types of applications so I also hear lots of lots of similarities between the the kind of perspective you share about infrastructure in the space because it is very difficult to predict what the normies will like so I'm curious about what your perspective is in this regard about building applications or building infrastructure do you think it's important for everyone to continue to to build this infrastructure or ultimately what may you know what what in your in your perspective is important for the builders in this space to be building

that's a great question and it's not a not not only important at this moment in time so usually though the way we look at it is we build infrastructure they will come never worked and never will um when you're building infrastructure you have to have some use cases and some users that want that infrastructure correct and it's a codependent relationship in the sense that the apps the end users the application Developers they have some needs presumably those needs come from them being very much in touch with their user base and what they

want and so that actually feeds into the design and architecture of the infrastructure that you provide um there's always an End customer whether their customer is an app developer or whether that customer is an end user you referred to as an army there's always a customer that wants a job done right they don't care about the magic on his own at the end of the day users want and care about what needs it solves for them and then it's up to the app developer to pick the best infrastructure layer to deliver on that promise for their user base

in the most efficient profitable way and it is the infrastructure provider's job to actually build out the best-in-class service to support those application Developers so if you are coming new to the space and if your question is should I build infrastructure should I build an app I would say you should start with the user first uh who's your end user what is the problem what it is what is it that you're solving uh when we talk about in-game Goods I mean people these are existing markets people exchange in-game goods even though the game developers don't like it right the 25 accounts they're going to swap uh goods for some sorts of currencies it's

almost a black market in the sense that they do it without the explicit approval of the game developers so the need is there what are these in-game Goods represent they're not just jpegs assuming that the logic of the game engine is verifiable and consistent uh it's some work that somebody has put in to earn those rewards right so they have some value all value is objective they have value because I've put a lot of skill and time and effort to earn them and you value them as well and so we're Trading so if you're building something I look at it from that perspective see where the needs are see where the market is see where uh you don't have to create a market the

user needs already exist and maybe you can decide that you know the app space is crowded I need to uh solve this infrastructure problem for all these app developers or you could say hey no one's built a killer app let's biblical wrap and it exists and then pick the best infrastructure but the question shouldn't be A or B the question should be what do you mind users need whatever the target segment is that you're going after yeah that kind of brings me to another point which is like there's definitely some challenges to onboarding users and kind of scaling defy with the security risks and also just the the educational side which you know we kind of try to tackle but you know these and outside of

these kind of what are some challenges that uh the entire D5 sector kind of faces and you know how how are you guys complexity right uh you brought up a good point about complexity and user experience so if you're a die-hard Enthusiast so this all goes back to how uh how technology an option happens right diffusion of Innovations so there's Pioneers early adopters um and then when you go through the valley or the chasm to get to the mainstream right like to uh you know lagger all the way up to the laggards each step of the way you have to improve

your your user experience and benefits so the first wave of users will tolerate a lot of nonsense right they can go to this bridge uh download this wallet right go to Fiat great way why transfer some money buy this coin transfer it to that other wallet and then put it in a bridge get these other things go to some other D5 protocol stake it they go through all of those Hoops because they are the pioneers and early adopters that doesn't translate to mainstream that never does never has been and it's not just software anywhere so every step of the way you have to keep improving your unique value proposition to the bigger pool of users

now so our goal is what are the best ux what is the best ux in the space right now that anybody can use centralized exchanges I mean they have a lot of other problems but because they are web 2 products they're very they're very simple they meet all of the user expectations of usability functionality reliability all that stuff could we talk about account abstraction um because I think this is a a key piece of the user experience layer that is maybe holding us holding the industry back from a killer app um have you have you experimented at all

with account abstraction do you think this is a legitimate gateway to mass adoption uh I am not very familiar with that term uh can you tell me a little bit about what you mean yeah I can try so as account abstraction as I understand it is a form of generating a set of ethereum private keys that are not exposed to the end user meaning that there is someone else maybe a third party or maybe the keys are split up across a number of parties now at one once those keys are generated they can serve as an ethereum account

and then you can deposit money into them and you can interact with your account as if it is a smart contract that enables the end user to then pay other current it enables the end user to do a variety of things one of which is pay uh different currency than the native gas currency for instance base could run a campaign that onboards users with account abstraction puts one usdc in their wallet and then they wouldn't need any ethereum to pay gas transactions even though it is running on the evm for instance or they use op stack so that all right so so at a higher level right you could pay gas with any currency

all right so you're basically talking about uh is there an amm or equivalent under the hood that actually pays the miners converts and pays the miners with these currencies yeah so account so I'm thinking about how how we can leverage account abstraction to onboard the masses um and give the masses a web 2 like experience with web3 under the hood right so several elements that you mentioned one distributed key generation we use at portal right uh two uh is the big biggest problem right now to doing transactions having

um ethereum to pay for gas yes absolutely if you only have usdc how are you going to transfer it right um for the portal Dex Network you actually can pay in the native currency it's across your name so that solves the problem of exactly what you're talking about so you you want to trade your BTC for Eid you don't have to have any eat you can pay your native fees in the currency that you have there's obviously an exchange rate that floats and that's that's the big point of friction uh vice versa as well

so that's the that's the beauty and it's also the difficulty of building across CNN is in the sense that any user with any currency can interact and transact and free and pay their fees in the currency they have they don't have to buy something else like I describe Gateway about some cash do uh Bridge a statements on and on and on and at the end many of them forget what stuff they even took to get there uh and you're on mute I think the key thing here is that the um the abstracting away the the complexities in the cross chain world is is is huge

what's the what's the kind of bldr on the on the uh portal swap feature um you know how is that gonna work how is that gonna make the user experience easier um you know what kind of capabilities will that um unlock sure so uh there's two or three ways of doing cross chain transactions right one is uh you have some trusted thing like a cross blockchain transmitter basically that creates a contract on this chain and whatever is reveal the state is transmitted to a contract on another chain they don't directly communicate with each other um there there are things like you know layer zeros and IVC and all these things

um the the problem with messaging protocols is that they're very limited and the chains don't have any binding to them so you're basically introducing another layer of trust whether it's centralized or decentralized between these different chains two is to use a centralized custodian right the Sexes and stuff like that three is atomic transactions which is a transaction that happens on this chain or a staging of a contract on this chain depends on a state change or some event happening on another chain and that binding is very strong it's uh uh it it basically guarantees a toxicity in the sense that X only happens if I

happen on other children the problem is atomic swaps is a New Concept it's not a new idea they've been there for a long time they require actions to be happening on layer one right on the base chain which takes confirmation Cycles fees transaction fees gas Etc we move all of that to Layer Two so instead of instead of the base transactions happening on layer one all of these swaps and interchange transactions happen on Layer Two and the recording of that is actually abstracted to it's okay that's the the parliament the the portal

chain so that way you get the speed you get low transaction fees but then you get strong security properties that you want to allow the functionality that users want um and then that's that's basically the permit right like that's the unique value proposition and then you get to your feature set and then the user experience it all feeds from that functionality so we've taken the atomic swap way right from the beginning when we looked at all the other different ways of doing inter blockchain communication um and we've decided on this if there's only two secure assumptions if you trust the underlying chains

right the game theory will take particular the best security so are you guys using the canonical Bridges or what's the bridging mechanism we don't actually use Bridges that's the thing uh we don't like Bridges and we don't like wrap assets precisely for this reason uh because a bridge you can decentralize it to some extent right it's basically I hold X asset that you send me uh maybe not I I is like multiple parties with some consensus mechanism etc etc and then I send you or sign a transaction that

sends to your wallet some other address it's the guarantee that the peg will always be maintain and the redeemable people always be needed that's not true empirically that has proven not to be true just the five biggest bridge hacks in the last year or two because the user about 1.3 to 1.4 billion dollars in lost money so it's proven not to be true we don't like it um in this case the custody of your funds either is either with you or an agent on the blockchain it acts as well that you and anybody else can verify nobody else and so so yeah bridges are trusted centralized you can decentralize them to

a certain extent but not fully and same thing with messaging protocols you can't fully decentralize you have to trust can't just you can't verify uh the cross chain messaging protocol but there is a link a binding I think is what you called it between the state Channel on on one chain and the state channel on the other chain and and uh releasing the funds on the destination chain depends on the on on understanding the state of the origin chain do you yeah or something being revealed On the Origin thing correct yeah so to to understand those State channels or communicate them uh to each other do you use ZK technology or optimistic

technology or a unique technology to understand uh the state or to prove the state of one chain and and understand that from the perspective of another chain um so ZK is more for the privacy but but what we do is let's say um so let's take the example of a lightning Network for you know um adjusting the balances requires us to basically erase the previous states that we've

agreed upon and all that takes is a secret to reveal right and because of the difference in time locks I can prove that the previous state is invalid and the balance has no readjusted to reflect the new share of whatever is in there it doesn't necessarily require ZK but because most of this is off chain right you could get away with simple encryption because you're not actually revealing these Channel States on chain anywhere except between the two parties and presumably the intermediate is in the middle so it's inherently more private than

on-chain transactions okay yeah I think my question may have sounded uh like pointing to the privacy but I think what I'm what I'm trying to get at is like how we execute Atomic swaps like how we come to understand the change in state of one chain yeah so the typical Atomic swap is you make a contract with me right uh you say you and I me you and I agree to exchange Bitcoin for ether at a mutually agreed upon exchange rate and then there's some exchange of public

key hash or whatever right you lock up your stuff um on chain with a secret that only you know and you pass along to me at the hash of that secret and then I use the same thing to lock my asset on my chain right so there's a difference in time logs in the sense that if you take my money the only way you can do that is by revealing your secret or the free image and then I can take that for up to a duration of time only I can take that on your chain and take your money that's the simplest basic construct of an atomic swap got it yep and then you can read because you can with the pre-image

you can recreate uh the the unlock key essentially the secret yes it's basically the unlocking oh God very cool yeah Atomic swaps are something that like you said the concept is new the idea has been around a long time like I was using shapeshift back in 2016 and so it just brings me back like um and I haven't heard Steve that's a great ux I mean by the way you know it's completely centralized but it's a great ux right uh it's the you could even say it's the precursor to a M's yeah I'm a ux perspective yeah it looks just like unit swap V2 literally exactly like I remember Rob

and I actually had Eric Voorhees in our University um blockchain Club in 2017 on a on a video call with like 20 students just asking questions about shapeshift yeah there is a question about what do users want hey they have it often but they had problems so there you go that's why evidence emerged yeah so what what are the problems that they faced I don't think you know we really I I don't really understand I I never really understand I think they had some Regulatory and legal issues mostly okay I don't know anything that the public doesn't know of course okay it wasn't a centralization explosion that's the thing about it

yeah that's the thing about building decentralized Tech is you know you can get away from the a lot of the the regulation if you structure your companies right and also just build truly decentralized technology it's almost like you're building this public good rather than this broker dealer or this exchange or and I assume that's kind of the route that you guys are going down correct correct yeah so I'm curious if it's good for the user in the sense that it's let's start going yeah please so I'm saying it's good for the user in the sense that there is no Central dependence on us as a company uh even if we we that's intentional and two it's good because

of legal and Regulatory ways in which it is treated if there is no counterparty or custodian in the middle of it yeah exactly and I mean even further on this note taking this and extrapolating it into this world of AI what are your thoughts on the intersection of AI and crypto and let's just start there because I I know that you guys are going to take advantage of it oh for sure so do you think uh we so let's say we're past the infrastructure's point and everybody is able to freely use all of these value props of different blockchains from a single interface it's very simple it doesn't

have a lot of complexity it's easy it works and it's secure next thing you you would want and this is not just in crypto but it's also in traditional Finance spaces you'll start to see more and more of autonomous Financial agents that reduce your mental transaction cost you don't have to be stuck to your screen calculating these business Point changes in this or that right um these autonomous we call them Bots now because they're very limited scope and functionality but you can create your own bot with just natural language instructions it can parse your natural language it can parse the the

balances of assets that you have it can parse through the contracts States and understand it and then you basically have a worker bee that is constantly doing your bidding 24 7 it doesn't sleep and it's way more efficient than you or any human right so we see that as the future um these we call them agents AIG ents and you it wasn't very possible in the past for training these AI models on your personal financial data and then explicitly instructing them basically wrapping the code for for what they should do

uh with llms that threshold has been reached now you can generate an agent that does a specific thing for you right you can give it access to your multi-currency wallet it goes through all the blockchains it goes through all the time instance on all the transactions and it can tell you based on the exchange rates of those names what how you should do your accounting for example that's the accounting agent right um you could instructed to just trade X versus y for pre-specified Google right all of those things you could do the signing would still be delegated to to the user of course you can debilitate the the

transaction signing ability to the agent with the guarantee that the private keys are stored on on your device but the more interesting thing is you can actually generate many of these agents each one with a specific explicitly stated goal or a mission and they all can interact with each other they can exchange ideas opinions strategies and then the user gets a full recording and control of all of that I think that's that's an exciting future so it's it's very very interesting to think about a protocol that enables degeneration and communication and coordination all of these autonomous

software agents uh and other user control it's this is a very very weird and interesting world we don't think we fully understand where it's going to go but it's gonna go somewhere where you need I love this yeah yeah I just wonder like real quick I just wonder like if if if markets will ever be the same after AI like why would do we even need money to trade like human emotion is gone like we just have ai well like what are we Trading I think the human element will continue to always be there right because it doesn't come from rule bound system it comes from somewhere in your mind the

subjective valuations of anything outside of us originates in your mind and there is no agent that actually has the exact same ordinal preferences that you do but you can have it be your agent in limited circumstances and when you're buying changes and your opinions change you can tell it to change too it's almost like a very tightly bound uh worker because I don't want to use the NPC words but yeah I'm gonna have like an aide chip my brain and it's going to be trading on Portal D5 as I'm dreaming about the next 100x and it's gonna happen for me when I

wake up and I'm like ah I didn't even have to open up my laptop today I'm just going to go for a surf probably yeah yes or or even start with an EEG instead of a chip in your brain you know Andy that's a wild idea for to train an AI based on your dreams they could remember my dreams for me just to start uh get it get a bit off track I I do want to keep touching on the AI and crypto intersection like um it's it's gonna happen you know I think if you're fading these two industries right now you're you're missing out you're gonna end up you're gonna end up out of the loop big time so

um you know I guess I could just pause it a question like like what in the current D5 landscape what do you think could have what what do you think AI can have the biggest impact on is it is trading is it is it lending is it yeah it can optimize your portfolio sure all of the above right like I said you can generate a slew of these agents with each with an explicit stated goal and one could be working on portfolio optimization one could be up working on uh managing risk one could be looking at yield one could be doing text uh loss harvesting or whatever um so and and the Beautiful Thing is your accountant doesn't need to talk to your

Trail doesn't need to talk to your Market maker all of that stuff is happening in the background with Hyper efficiency foreign yeah I love the the point you made about decreasing our mental transaction cost because like these autonomous agents that were able to train and then they go they go do the thing like that is then offloading our mental bandwidth potentially our physical bandwidth if it's going to save us time and energy from pushing buttons um exactly and then it's like the best part about

chat gbt man it's like anything that you want you don't even have to think about it you need an outline boom done you need this done you need a grocery list done yeah this is this is this has been a big problem in this space because people said oh now you can pay uh substitution this or now you could do two dollars for you know a small thing and Nick server wrote about the actual economic transaction cost but it's your mental transaction cost right it's large language models your mental transaction costs are compressed to much much much lower you don't have to make these decisions you should apply

this or should I buy that right you basically have an agent that understands it and operates at Hyper Speed so efficiency guaranteed like like I said you know how many of us can afford an accountant and a trading desk and a market maker and this and that and the risk manager and a financial planner they're all living on your devices aren't close but they're all communicating all the time and they're all working together for you and you're basically getting that for free can you imagine the the level of quantity that is for personal finance it's hyper scale and then you it's hyperscale and then you don't have uh any of these constraints of oh my bank

needs to do X or Y or Z because you actually have these this decentralized monetary infrastructure with crypto so it's crazy crazy stuff yeah I I could we could ask a similar question to ones that you know we're asking about blockchain now which is which is that like interoperability between my AI accountant and my AI financial analyst is another like big issue like how do I and then and then I would want go ahead go on no no please so so that's the uh part of the agent module right like the uh in our roadmap

that's the next step we've already started on it there's a team dedicated to this so the goal is to have a Common Language and a common incentive and a communication system and a coordination system between all of these agents that are working on different chains doing different things for a user and yeah and coordination like is almost built from those incentives those are almost one and the same because and and when it comes to incentives like I would want like these incentives running on a close almost like a almost like a blockchain circuit for the for the transfer of incentives here between my AI financial analyst and

AI account and and especially if they were to then communicate with other AI my AI account and then communicates with other AI accountants to make it till Saturday if there's some payment that has to go from one to the other for paying that learning like for that education so is that what port you have a team dedicated at portal to build out this payment Channel between ai's the we call it the coordination system but it's basically transfer of value exchange of information uh in whole different currencies and if you if you remember to be able to do this you need to have the previous step which is the cross chain amn right then

any agent operating on any chain with any incentive structure can exchange with anyone else it's very interoperable yeah it's it's uh it's it's deep so you hit on the roadmap and as you kind of come to the the closing thoughts here what is what is up on the agenda uh leading into the end of the year um how excited are you are you doing any conferences um what do you guys have going on okay so for us uh Step One is the decentralized exchange protocol with the cross CNM uh v0 should be live within within a week

um we want we expect or testnet to be live by late next quarter after the main transition of that happens then the agent module will be released again in a series of testing and steps um yeah the there's already one um bought for Investments it actually does both crypto and equities it's called Rafa rafa.ai that's one of our parks there will be many more agents like that and the agent protocol will basically be the coordination communication exchange

system between all of those agents for each individual user very cool and how can our community get involved and participate use these Bots and use portal D5 uh right now if you want to use it you go to robert.ai spin up your own uh thing you can if you're a crypto it'll only do crypto for you if your equities as well as crypto it'll do both uh you can download it once the uh v0 P2P swaps are live you can test it out you know uh join our telegram Channel follow us on Twitter if you want to be a validator for the the next test net

there's a validator sign up form all of the above sweet yeah definitely going to check out rafa.a it sounds awesome um and yeah thank you Chandra for coming on uh the podcast and kind of sharing some really interesting insights about tons of tons of topics right just D5 and kind of scaling Mass adoption cross chain World Layer Two scaling all the way up into intersections of AI and crypto and kind of how we're going to see this ecosystem and this industry scale so um wish your team the best of luck in Stanford blockchain week this week and um yeah thanks again for your time absolutely pleasure being with you Rob

and eddiepie good luck this is fun thank you thanks for coming on awesome