The Truth Behind Story Protocol - CEO S.Y. Lee

Transcript

I think the kind of criticism we get is uh because story didn't uh just give out bunch of tokens to exchanges. We didn't dump in the way that other you know found uh tokens dumped in the first few months. >> And one thing that was particularly peculiar about it was the timing man. Um, so there there was a lot of uh FUD and push back about the timing of the announcement being 3 days after the six-month core contributor unlock. Did Jason leave any tokens on the table by leaving early?

>> Welcome back to the Rowup. We are your hosts. I'm Andy. >> I'm Robbie. And this is your home to learn from the biggest guest, the brightest minds at the tip of innovation. Our goal is to help spread the collective knowledge of everyone in our community. We are breaking crypto out of its echo chamber and taking it to the real world. All right, Sy, I think you're up, man. >> Welcome back. Sy, >> great. Hopefully, it works. >> Yes, it does. I think it was VPN, all these different stuff. I understand. So, let's get right back into it. That's why we were, you know, going on to discuss your relationship with Jay-Z, but I think it's it's important to understand that and I think people have this idea in their mind that Jay-Z was the like the face, the brand, the the founder,

and you kind of have like this shadow founder perspective and persona, which I think people don't really understand. So, maybe you could explain your background uh before we get into your relationship with Jay-Z. >> Yeah. So I what I wanted to say right before this was that these things happen all the time. I had an company before I'm I've been an entrepreneur for the last 12 years and the last company uh I was working in mobile IP space. I sold that company to cacao four years ago for half a million dollars and even in that company there were I think two three phases right so the first co-founder left and we had a CTO CPO co-founder coming in uh when we pivoted to a new

company and actually as a comp and once we launched a product as a company was try to scale from one to 100 I had a very seasoned CTO CPO come in and that co-founder also left so if you look at many of the successful companies out the first year leadership, fourth year leadership, eighth year leadership, it all evolves and changes and actually it becomes a positive catalyst for the company as it and it tries as it tries to grow. So um with Jason um actually after selling my last company uh four years ago and um I you know I was itching to actually think about what is my next move, right? Am I just going to continue to stay at Caca and try to be

an corporate executive or am I going to start a new company? And I ultimately decided that, you know, starting a new company is the right way. Uh I I'm not I'm not a big company guy. I get so much energy out of starting new things from ground up. And you know, crypto and IP was just starting with NFTs. And I thought there was so much more to crypto and IP than just JPEG files in NFT, right? And then I was very lucky to have found Chris Dixon and A6NZ. They backed me as a solo founder uh with $10 million term sheet and then I was will um you know I was a venture partner at Hash.

They also stepped in and a lot of the backers from the last company they they they piled on. So we had a $30 million ready kind of committed uh that was a very lucky time as a serial entrepreneur uh with a successful exit and then you know I was trying to build a team from there right and uh and I had a actually co-founder uh Jason Leby who was focused on IP he was the first co-founder to come in afterwards and then we were building the team and actually Jason was someone who was recommended by Alliance Dow Inran Khan at Shia Wong you know it was an accelerator for you know crypto and he said there's this there's this uh young kid uh Jason who's very very sharp

who has many ideas he's pitching new ideas every week but he doesn't have an idea yet that he he's passionate about you should meet him. It'll be a good good person to join and the crypto is a new thing uh you know and you you you want a very fast young talent working with you. So we I met him uh he was very impressive and you know he first joined as a consultant for a few months and then you know I I I offered him a position uh to work as one of your early employees and he said I want to start my own company I can't join once I join the company I have to commit for several years I can't do that and like I told him no no no just join as a junior co-founder learn zero to one in three to four years you can start

your own thing right and uh once we launched the blockchain I think he's been kind uh suppressing that thought for you know uh starting his own thing until the blockchain launched and then after the blockchain launched few month after uh he actually came uh and said I think you told me s two and a half years ago three years ago uh that this is a zero to one once I once I experienced that I can go and start my own thing I I had a fantastic run I learned a lot from you but I I think it's best for the company and not just me to actually have more professional executive team uh CPO uh and someone focused in AI who can actually scale this from one to 100 and I it was a mutual agreement right it's

uh you know uh it's it was a moment where we launched a blockchain but it's about actually having stronger ecosystems stronger applications stronger use cases that this infrastructure will use for and the uh two leaders who came in the chief AI officer Sandep is a very very I mean Jason has some experience in AI but it's a this year in deep mind that this person got his PhD at Stanford for AI, sold the company to VMRE as one of the founding engineers as is a professor in uh AI has been working in AI for you know a decade plus uh as a as one of the kind of a very respected academic authorities and uh as Andrea uh who um is a fantastic kind of AI focused product manager he actually was working

in Alexa Amazon team for as a product manager developer evangelist uh led dev role at uh capital X so he is also consumer AI IP experience on top of AI experience. So he has a very very good understanding of scaling product for um uh kind of in the AI vertical and the consumer vertical. So yeah, so two of them just have tons of experience at scaling this and now is a time to go from one to 100. We launched a thing but we need to actually get a real usage at these two or the right first to drive the next stage.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's right. I must say though that it it the announcement that Jay-Z put out uh you know there there was commentary and you know I could understand why it felt like he was maybe a bit forced out. Uh but you're saying that that's not the case but it felt like that. >> No that that's not the case and I I uh that's not the case. As I said, you know, it was from the very beginning, he he wanted to ultimately do his own thing, right? And he wanted to join to learn zero to one, right? And and he had a fantastic run kind of getting to the blockchain launch. And then I think he ultimately wanted to go for his own thing, right, as a as a kind of a young

founder. uh right and and you know and it's it was actually him um you know stepping aside and going on to the next journey also leaves a room for these very experienced sea levels to come in not just the CPO at uh chief product officer and chief AI officer now we have actually head of partnerships from Actto joining he he also led all the BD at Libra at Facebook and he's very very experienced professional so now we have a very seasoned executive team that were that are that are brought in uh right to get to the next chapter two of story and and you know I've had this experience even the last company and I had uh this the early co-founder was an engineer but

he she loved product on top of just doing engineering and then you know she and then it it came a time where now CTO cannot do the product CTO cannot do the design on top of her just engineering work and we had to you It was a time where you needed a very professional mobile app scaling person in the product team uh product vertical engineer vertical who came in to grow together. And as she uh as she worked together, she thought, "Okay, maybe this is uh you know, I I should focus on uh kind of my my thing, right? Because, you know, this is I I love 0ero to one, not that 200. Some people love that early stage of the game, right?

>> But as a for me as a CEO and uh CEO and founder and original vision, I'm I mean I I see this as a decade long or two decade long longer journey, right? you know, I'll be all I'll be sticking around to until this kind of vision comes to life. >> Yeah. >> And and this particular use case will will take time to develop and and to your point, this is all the early history. And so I'm curious if you can maybe tell us a little bit more about the early history of story protocol and your relationship and as you were working with Jay-Z, you know, what were you responsible for? What was he responsible for? And now that he's left, who's going to be coming in to to take over his responsibilities?

>> Yeah. So, I mean, I'm the original patient, right? Because I So, last company, I mean, to just give you my history, the first company I started was actually crowdfunding platform, Kickstarter, Patreon, meets journalism and writing and blogging. So, for me, IP creator was the very first thing that I started. And after that I started radish which was a mobile storyteller platform with the thesis that kind of the fiction is a source of all the IPs the cheapest way to create IPS and we can scale to other types of IP very very easily and now it's basically I'm not just doing an application layer or infrastructure layer of how IP is created IP slices IP's monetized IP funded is

fundamentally rewritten through blockchain technology in the age of AI right so for me that's I um you know I came up with a vision I set the visionary wide ranging strategy I you know I I built a team I fundra and then you know I I'm the ultimate decider for all the decisions uh you know and you know and and basically uh you know that that was my role and Jason's role was kind of focused on protocol design right protocol design plus also being an evangelist and marketer along with me right uh you know uh you know I've been uh I I was also pretty loud in Twitter.

I also was very active but you know he he took the role of actually getting more on more getting on more podcasts getting on more uh speaking engagements but you know I'm I'm I'm going to be doing probably a lot of podcasts a lot of interviews going forward. So I'll probably taking that role uh a lot more. Plus you know Andrea uh he uh he served as president of the foundation is now the CPO was to taken it over. So he uh he will do that with me on top of uh uh uh uh you know um you know uh on the public evangelism side on the AI side you interview Sandep he's going to play that role as well and also as a co-founder of Pesided and on the and the other so that's the public evangelist

side the other side he had was product and protocol right that's going to be taken over by actually um um Andrea who has a decade plus long experience and product management and also building for developers. So he was in charge of developer relations at Dapper. He was a technical evangelist at actually Amazon on top of being a product manager and actually in a layer one and and also protocol is a very developer bracing product. You want as many application builders coming on top of you, right? So it's you need to understand the minds of developers to actually thrive as a a layer one ecosystem. So he with that 10 plus years of experience he's going to actually you know take it to another level right season was a a very strong

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>> All right. So now that we understand the roles, I I appreciate that. I you know I think the announcement went way bigger than any of us thought. I mean it pretty much went from like what it was at a couple hundredk views to five million within a matter of of hours and days and uh it took over the entire timeline for the weekend for on on crypto Twitter. Um you know and one thing that was particularly peculiar about it was the timing man. Um, so there there was a lot of uh FUD and push back about the timing of the announcement being three days after the sixmonth core contributor unlock. Um, which looks really really bad then. Um, I'm not sure you know what

the details there are exactly on you know your your token. Yeah, I think part of the reason why it went viral was there's so much misinformation about it and it was got propagated, propagated and propagated. And you know, first of all, that's a complete lie. That is a six month unlock, right? Actually, >> there's no six-month unlock. >> Core contributors have a year one year cliff and plus two-year vesting. This is a fouryear vesting period with for the first 12 month your own tokens won't get unlocked at all. Right? And uh you know you have a three-year vesting on top of that. So you know it's uh it's it's a

four uh four year uh plus besting period right and even uh just a 20% of uh the core contributors tok gets unlocked in the year one which is actually February of next year right so that's uh that's uh that's where things are sitting at and actually uh some of even very I was talking was a very authorative newspapers you know actually wrote that kind of thing and then we had to correct it and then which they apologized Yeah. >> Okay. So, so the timing of the announcement, it there was misinformation about the token unlocks and then and then you're saying that the timing was not correlated at all to any sort of

six-month unlock >> at all. >> It's all oneear clip. >> It's one-year clip, one-year clip for the core contributors and three-year vesting on top of that. Right. So, it's a four-year uh four-year uh unlock period >> and that that's public somewhere that's in the docs or that's in the that's on chain. How how do you how does one verify that? >> Uh it's it's in the foundation documents and you know a lot of the token tokconomics, you know, unlock tracker will will show you that investors have a three-year team internal team actually uh have a year longer than the than the investors, right? So yeah, three year for investors, four year with a one-year

cliff. And actually uh from what we know, uh you know, there is a strict guideline around not having uh any tokens unlock until year one for uh for for uh core contributors for for American companies, which we are. >> Yeah. And a a lot of times I've seen that uh if an employee or a founder doesn't stay on past a certain threshold uh some of their tokens are are revoked. Um did Jason >> did Jason leave any tokens on the table by leaving early? You know he >> Yes. So, so, so actually there was also I mean I don't want to speak for on his behalf but uh he uh he left earlier than

his full vesting. Normally for all these tech startups is Silicon Valley. It's a four-year vesting he left three years in, right? Uh and that also leaving that you know what's remaining on the table also allows you to bring in more uh seasoned team members as well, right? And and which uh you know which can uh which could be used for bringing future talents so yeah. Okay. All right. Um, that's why there's another I mean, we can get into some of the more uh kind of quote tweets and stuff in a bit. Um, but just kind of rolling back to

>> tweets. What are these tweets? >> Yeah, there's quite a few, man. I I'm sure you spent a lot of time reading them. Um, Twitter went crazy there. There there's a tweet about that we didn't really bring up yet that I think is important about how you guys got the funding from your kind of Korean uh uh family slash um you know close companions. Is there anything that you wanted to clear up on the on the funding process of story u with regards to that? Uh I know it's a bit of a wild card here but there's some there's some those are quote tweets I don't know what that actually you're talking about, but you >> Okay.

>> What do you mean by this? >> Um, well, yeah, on that announcement uh from Jay-Z, there was a recent quote tweet. Um, recent quote tweet uh says >> uh I'll have to find the exact one. Uh >> anyway what what I can tell you is that you know given that I've sold a company uh in Korea >> uh the sestage comp in the sestage level actually we've had several founders or investor from Korea who've actually

built companies in the IP and tech and uh tech space who backed uh you know who backed a company in the early days that Okay. All right. Um, moving towards some of the actual nitty-gritty of Story. Um, Sto's revenue numbers from the quote suites on DeFi Llama are very low, $50 in a 24h hour period or something like that.

>> Uh, why does Story generate so little in fees and revenue? Like, is there any real sustainability here for Story? What is this? What is this? what is the situation here? >> Yeah. So, first first of all, I think you're referring to uh kind of the gas fee revenue, right? The gas fee revenue. And just to kind of put put things in comparison, Mantle, for instance, is a top 30 40 token project, which is a you know, pretty respectable chain. Uh they have actually 200 to 300,000 daily transactions, which is similar to what where Story is. If you go to Australia story.io, uh that's actually kind of the 200 to

300,000 u uh 300,000 kind of transaction number is kind of the ballpark number that we get every day on the daily transaction volume. And you know uh you know uh if you ask Mantle and just go to their scanner what their revenue per day is about $3,000 per day or $2,000 to $3,000 per day. Story is doing as you said 20 to $50 per day, right? And uh where where is that discrepancy coming from? The transaction volume loading was similar but the gas fees a lot lower for story right and we it was a very intentional choice because a lot of the chains out there are very kind of defy focused trading focus it's catered to a very small number of folks but for story uh we deal with IP we deal with data

it's a very very interfacing chain in some ways we have application like magma which is three million users and they would hate to pay uh you know a lot of gas fee and asked that all to web to users, right? So for for that reason, we intentionally made the gas fee extremely low, right? Uh to to actually get the get the get the train going and this is a uh stories at the stage of actually, you know, getting real adoption of the consumer space and we know it's at that stage. So it's not about like charging insane gas fee, right? And the name, you know, so that's kind of where where we're sitting at. So you can you can think of the gas fee revenue gas fee as

a taxation on the transaction. At the moment we have a very very low taxation on the transaction and um and that's generating about you know 200 to 300 to 300,000 transaction volume uh which is higher than many of the layer layer one uh you know and layer was you know and you know it's similar to something like mantle. Yeah. >> Yeah. So this is something that we've seen across other networks that are looking to drive uh growth network effects rather than trying to maximize their revenue from day one. And this I mean this is something that is true of Amazon in the early days looking to build out an ecosystem before charging

fees to encumber that ecosystem. >> Yeah. But I don't really think that's the point. I think the point is more of like no one's using the chain is is the response. Like that's kind of the push back is more like no one's using the chain. And there's no fees, there's no activity, it's a ghost chain. You raised hundred $100 million, no one's using it. And uh it's vaporware. I mean, that's like the response. It's it's it's not like, oh, there stories the next Amazon. It's like, no, no, there is no next. It's just >> I think what that's why what you're trying to say, and this is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong, is that there's lots of transactions.

There's just not lots of fees and revenue being generated from those transactions. Is that >> that's one that's one aspect. The second aspect is uh stories use cases are focused on uh non uh kind of a crypto native use cases. When I say crypton native use cases I think the things that actually get a lot of traction on Twitter on X not on X is really kind of the very speculative use cases like memecoin uh trading uh you know which we are now you know getting into with IP pack IP.orld world which is actually creating generating creator fees for uh the the actual meme owners and IPOers

but you know we we're we're not a chain focus on this kind of speculator use cases or memecoin trading or defy farming and because of that we we don't have the right kind of attention for kind of the echo chamber of X but we have a lot of applications so to give an examples something like mag with three million users a Figma for illustrators all these illustrations coming out would get registered and I think and these get registered as intellectual property and this intellectual property actually has a program licensing royalty share revenue so actually as an illustrator you can use another person's illustration another person's illustration on top on that right that's a use case that

probably CT doesn't care that much about but it's an interesting use case uh utilizing small contract a second is an app called Abalo it's a remix uh AI remixing meets merch platform. It has uh brands like Adidas, Balenciaga, not all their design, some of their designs where you can actually create derivative design through AI remixing tools and actually can sell that if you share the revenue design houses and you know things like Arya is an RW protocol. It actually has everything Justin Bieber's IP to Blackpix side IB that's registered, right? And and you know um that that actually uh it's it's driving TVL, right? So these are applications

that are not like the sexiest CT stuff because it's not the next out is is it going to 100x as a mean point? Is it going to give insane yield to make revenue? But you know these are use cases that are I think important for crypto to crack and that's kind of the things that we're focused on. >> And oftent times CT is very detached from the reality of what's happening either internally or around a company especially one that's dealing with as you're saying consumer or business facing enterprises have and so we obviously saw the reaction from CT on Jason's departure and on story in general. Has there been a similar reaction from partners, some of your IP partners or applications building on top

of story? Maybe you could give us some insight as to what their reaction was. Was it the same or was it a bit different from what we saw on CT? First of all, I would say actually um uh Jason uh it's it's it was not an abrupt I mean from the CT's perspective it's very abrupt >> but he's been stepping back from April. Yeah. you know he he told us midappril about the news and you know most of their partners or client facing folks uh you know or other clients or ecosystem builders was mostly interacting with not with Jason but the rest of the team so it's not a real surprise uh for any

right and then you know uh it's about yeah so it was not a was not a real surprise because that's not been uh they They they they I think uh he was not the point of call for most of these barters. >> Yeah. Uh yeah. So that was that was the reality. >> Yeah. >> So so so you chose to to like delay the announcement of his departure. >> No, it was a it was a gradual process right from April mid April to to and you know >> it's not you know okay he's he tells I'm going to I'm going to leave him. It's not he doesn't say leave the next. I understand that it's our comp uh it's a gradual process for the company, right?

>> All right. All right. Um man, I think uh another massive thing that we need to discuss is this token float situation. I think you guys has in you guys have been pinpointed as one of the culprits of the high float low FTV artificial moves in the chart. I think people are saying you guys raised $100 million, two really weird pumps with extreme um extremely imbalanced per uh funding rates, massive negative funding rates on the initial pump. Um basically that your float is extremely low and that you guys are misappropriating what the float is. Um so yeah, maybe you

could explain, you know, your side of this. Yeah, I think I think you're kind of characterized low float high high activity situation, right? And first of all, I think we're you know it's it's probably a relatively lower float right and when I say that is there I think ma the major reason behind why it's perceived that way is actually if you look at most of the VC uh backed tokens they go to they get listed like a major VC back tokens they get listed on every single exchange and part of That deal is actually giving an insane amount of

float, insane amount of tokens to uh to these exchanges. For a company like scroll, they have to give 15 to 20% of their tokens uh to an exchange or you know uh you know move 8 to 12%. Uh you know um you know there are several cases it's multiple percentage 5 to 15 percentage. So we the company ultimately took a decision. I mean if I it's not just about getting on the exchanges it's not about day one right uh you know it's a long long journey and what the circulating supply represent is an unlocked supply that's going to be used into investing into community and ecosystem and also maybe exchange

listics right that's why actually uh you know but for us we purposely made a decision uh you know let's play a long game you know and actually let's bring the tokens is to uh the right application builders, the right uh community members, right IP builders, IP folders and data builders because we didn't give you know I mean for us you know the last company's valuation uh when we raised the funding was about a few billion dollar valuation and if we had to give 5 10 15% that's hundreds of millions of token just going into going to exchange major air droppers uh

airdrop farmers and instead of that why don't we put that into a long-term aligned parties. So actually because of that we have a lot more flexibility and you'll be hearing that in the next coming weeks already uh we will be incentivizing these weak tokens actually collecting real world data uh for big AI model companies you'll be very surprised by that we're partnered with because of these tokens we can now actually go after a massive IP catalog that are very recognizable IPs that are actually being added as TVL it's going to be in a range of hundreds of million yeah yeah so that Yeah. Okay. So, um where So, like right now on Coin Gecko, it says there's 3%

it's 30% unlocked from circulating market cap to fully diluted market cap. Where like where are those tokens like like the idea here is that that that there's that these projects are basically falsely representing how much of the float is actually on the market. Meaning that it says there's 30% right now, but it's more like 5%. Like where are these 30% like like is this part of application airrop? >> Float is the >> float is basically representing and the coin gecko and coin market caps definition a lock token that can be used for ecosystem and uh uh app builder and community incentives, right? and and basically uh you know that that actually

is being used uh to actually uh actively daily to basically give ecosystem grads community uh uh you know bringing IP bringing data you know for instance the area you know uh vaults that that actually uh brought black IP to BTS IP a lot of people got IP tokens right so that's kind of where where it is and you know that's actually true for every single uh every single chain out there every single ecosystem out there. They're using they're circulating supply to actually incentivize ecosystem builders and I you know they're most kind of online partners in the ecosystem and community members.

>> Okay. Um and then I mean and then I think the perception of folks thinking uh we're relatively lower is because we did I mean a lot of the EOS a lot of the layer ones or layer twos or the chains where they launched they give massive amount of I mean I think a lot of people supplies we didn't get a lot of exchanges on day one because I was I made an intentional decision as an as a as a CEO it's not about being desperate to get just giving out all these tokens to all these exchanges and just get listed and most of the other project because they do that they just get dumped very very quickly in the first few weeks but for us we were pretty resilient going going into this ecos uh

going into at the launch and a lot of people just attack okay it's a low float whatever but >> yeah I mean well that's the >> it's more responsible as an ecosystem found you actually give those builders >> well you could put it that way I swear but I think for people see it as there are some artificial pumps happening from market makers who are you know the there's some a agreement for them to pump the tokens so that they can have some sort of cash out at a certain price um and that that basically that it's just these there's blowing out these short squeezes that are created are on purpose artificially to pump the price of IP it's inorganic demand and borderline illegal and that's what

people see they don't see oh I I didn't give a a lot of flow to exchanges. Uh I think I mean first of all our market making agreements or retainer agreements right just they add advisory tokens for actually market making right uh even uh there's what they call loan co- optional agreement what that uh that folks foundations use we actually pulled out of it right and uh they can uh very quickly and we we we have this retainer agreements actually uh in in the uh you know that's operating And I think you know for for what you're mentioning right uh story I think the kind of criticism we get is uh because

story didn't uh just give out bunch of tokens to exchanges. We didn't dump in the way that other you know found uh tokens dumped in the first few months. And actually if you track a lot of the major token launches in the last uh this year uh most of them you know went down because you know they they're not very responsible about you know basically you know uh giving giving ecosystem grants and so on and so forth. So I think for us we want to bring the tokens in the hands of right builders, right uh community members, right IP holders,

right data holders and that's our philosophy and you know that's coming from our own lawyer by circulating as well. >> Okay. All right. So all right. So we're we're going to have the impression that you and the the team have have not given you know based on what you're saying you've not given an ex extended amount of supply to exchanges. Um you have standard and market maker retainer agreements. >> We have a standard we have standard >> airdrops given to everyone right and the ecosystem brats builders and so on and so forth. The one thing that we differ is I think I mean I'm not going to name names but a lot of people were surprised

that we didn't get most uh you know a lot of the exchanges that people were expecting right many many exchanges and that uh from the the part of the decision was we cannot you know we're just not yeah we'll be more off about how we approach this. It's a more long-term game. It's a long game. It's not about just let's get on to every single exchange possible on day one. >> Okay. like this very short >> and so then you know with this understanding that you've shared uh you know I think our our audience in the community appreciates the transparency here and you know you being on this call I I think that what what what you know these answers don't really cover is the

fully diluted valuation today of of IP token is 5 bill768 million and so on and I just don't I I don't quite get how we can think about the IP token or story protocol as something with such minimal amount of revenues uh and user numbers and also just in the early stage to be worth that $6 billion or so mark fully diluted. So I mean I I know crypto valuations can be kind of all over the place and kind of inefficient but you know it why is story protocol worth six billion like you know why is it not worth 600 million or 60 million like like what is the reasoning

as to why this is there uh outside of kind of what people think which is a lot of that artificial pump type of uh tactics. Yeah, know there are many kind of there are many uh crypto protocols out there, crypto layer ones, crypto projects and you know I you know I'm not the biggest expert on why you know you know Ripple's uh whatever hundreds of billions of dollars or you know salon has hundreds of billions of dollars right not going to pretend to be that person but I think what I can say is this right uh most of their crypto projects so far has been focused focused on I think at least

infrastructure wise two main things right one is building a faster chain building a faster TPS and secondly they've been very focused on uh not only just building a faster TPS but like a lot of T5 focus chains right there are those two have been kind of major narratives for these infrastructures it story uh is very something that's very weird it's something that is not kind of uh it's it's hard to evaluate as a as a CT person or as a crypto analyst because it's something doing total some doing something totally different you know IP blockchain there was no IP intellectual property focused blockchain and I what I could tell you is IP is a massive asset

class it's a $80 trillion asset class from entertainment franchise biomedical patents you know AI trading data sets to all these different things right and that has been illucidate that has been has had so many middlemen right you know if you want to license an IP remix an IP lawyers business development department agent there's so many friction in that IP world and you know that IP is actually you know is is a bit point is complicated gold it's $23 trillion asset right but the IP is a massive asset class that's actually is looking to be innovated and secondly you know on the IP side IP I think is going to be more and more valuable especially subset of

real world data uh is going to be more and more valuable for AI in three AI there are three kind of battlefields what is what I call model architecture that's open AI to deep six of the world is getting very commods open anthropic maximum two or three month difference you know uh you know compute is monopolized by uh monopolized by Nvidia open is a $500 billion company now it's raising a $500 billion you know uh you Nvidia's multi-t trillion dollar company. The last piece now is going to be about data. Even if you as a Tesla robotics AI model, even if you script entire internet's data, you cannot have a robot hold a coffee cup, right?

Because you need a lot of lot of rare data long a longtail data for that robot to hold a coffee cup, right? And how do you get it? You can have a do it in a centralized way or you can do in a decentralized with crypto incentives and collect it and then actually have an IP put it on the IP blockchain license it uh with smart contract and so on and so forth right so we think you know data infrastructure data and IP for the AIH is going to be as valuable as these two other verticals and you know um it's a massive market and it's actually has more relevance going forward is uh is our belief and I'm not going to pretend to say I'm the expert of crypto valuation. I don't know why Pepe is

valued more than X, you know, and crypto, you know, I I don't know why Ripple's more valued than Salana. I there are so many, you know, things that that, you know, I can say for for us, let's focus on the product, focus on the problem. It is a massive market. It is a very important market. It is very something that's has to be a lot for AI. So that's how I approach it. And you know if if you don't believe that should be six billion you know that's fine if we are playing a long game here. So looking at this maybe from a different angle, you know, you guys not only went live with the token and it's trading on an open market and frankly people can go short it, you know, if they think it's overvalued, but when you went to raise

funding from guys like A16Z who have a proven track record, are these the same things that you're communicating to them? They're buying in. They they see the same vision and so they invest. If you're looking at it from the A16Z angle, the Christ Dixon angle, what is the what is the the return on invest? Like what how do they end up making a multiple and how do they end up making a return? Because it seems that like you're saying this is a massive market, but the five six billion uh valuation they maybe, you know, the the raise was a little bit of a lower valuation, but they they still got in at a relatively high valuation. what's going through their mind like what is

their mental calculus when it comes to look we're going to invest at a multi-billion dollar valuation but we're still going to see a return for that it it takes revenue doesn't it it takes some sort of growth how how are they going through the mental gymnastics to >> even you know the the data side the Vidon we just launched which is actually running on top which is going to run on top of story scale AI was doing multi-million dollar valuation that actually all the contracts gone away. We're now signing a lot of the partners that they dropped uh from from Poseidon and it's all going to be registered on the RI IB blockchain that that application right will uh that that project is going to generate a lot of

revenue right and and you know as a defco we can actually also build a lot of applications on top of story like consensus that's going to generate a lot of revenue and you know the chain could actually as as it grows and grows will generate a lot of revenue where you know a lot of the silicon Valley funds in a 10 to 15 year cycle, right? and you know and and you know we're playing the long game here and it's a ma uh it's a massive IP IP is a massive market uh market and it's more important in the age of AI and you know that's you know that that's kind of where we're playing at and if you don't buy the thesis that actually in the same way crypto innovated on finance crypto can innovate on intellectual property but I think on

an intuitive level uh IP tokenization Using small contract for licensing and royalty sharing makes a ton of sense. Uh in an intuitive level, scaling the data uh collection, licensing for AI model companies with IP terms attached to it on the IP blockchain makes a ton of sense. And if that actually has a leg that we start and I'm, you know, I think you'll be surprised by some of the IPS that are going to come in in the next few months. I think you'll be very surprised by some AI partners that we're signing on and that actually I believe rather than building another faster chain rather than building

another D5 protocol is more ambitious is more risky but has is a very worthwhile journey that has actually is going to have a massive impact. >> So I I'm I'm curious this is a bit more of a general question but I I think it's relevant in the light of Jay-Z's departure. You're describing this as a 10, 15, 20 year journey, which I I believe it is, as well as a lot of other crypto endeavors. Do you intend to be around this for 10, 15, 20 years? Like what is your dream scenario if you can try to think about what this is going to look like as it plays out?

No, I I think I always kind of describe it as two uh distinct things, but I think a very visual way of imagining what we can do is we're building a massive IP Lego land. When I say massive IP Lego, uh, is that when humans have these IP Legos, you know, pudgy cam penguin can be a Lego piece and you actually take that pudgy penguin and you now have a five coding AI gaming tool, right? And then you can make a very very high resolution MMO RPG pudgy game, some kind of battle pudgy battle game all these days now without even asking to Luca, can I

actually license this? But there's already a licensing royalty characters baked into that IP so that you can now use it a Lego piece for your creation. And now back in the days, even if you have a hold of this IP, the best thing you can make is a fanfiction and fan art. But now you can make a high resolution game, high resolution movie, high resolution other product, right? That's going to be for me, you know, making that if every human has IP Lego pieces that they can play with plus a magic wand of AI remixing a magic wand of AI, I think that will bring a creative renaissance.

That's something that I'm very excited about as a someone who's been building at the intersectional IP technology. And secondly, the exciting thing is around really uh I think data with now Biden coming on for data is actually really the uh the gold and oil for the uh AI economy and a lot of people think data that you're creating you know for even Tesla Optimus team you holding a or you typing a keyboard with the GoPro on your head and an egocentric video footage that actually for one hour is extremely valuable. Actually, you want you typing keyboard and holding a coffee

cup in million different angles, million different lightings, you know, with gargantuan amount of hours and that actually helps a robot hold a coffee cup and type a keyboard and that is an IP that is a intellectual property that you should own and license and that's what better is it to do it than you know this previous way or scaling high where a shell company hires a 10,000 people in India or Indonesia pays them and then license a bespoke agreement to Tesla or Meta Google instead of that why don't we actually cross it anyone could upload their data get crypto incentives in return register the IP terms and these

AI model companies license that's a much more scalable way so I think for me it's an IP Lego land and also people realizing that anyone can be an data minor and every my data is my IP right it's kind of that that is for me a very exciting world and you know maybe sounds very ambitious but you know that's that's exciting for me >> well that vision makes sense I think what I'm trying to understand is okay you know say that plays out 10 years down the line what is the right way for a crypto founder to exit a company like Satoshi did it one way right he just disappeared there's other and the market and the community was seemingly unhappy with the way that Jay-Z exited. Maybe it

was just too early, right? But these crypto decentralized companies are noticeably significantly different from how one might exit a traditional non non-tokenbased company. And so is there a right way if if you were looking at, you know, and kind of analyzing did Jason do it the right way? Granted the time frame, if you're doing it 10 years down the line, how do you do it differently so that it is better received? >> I mean, I I don't want to speak on hypotheticals here, but you know, for me at least, uh I mean, >> theoretically, how how should someone do it if they were to do it?

You know, I I think if you um if you um what you can do as a thber is really give it give it your give it all to the company and try and grind it and you know in the last company uh actually when I when a lot of new founders come to me you know since I'm a serial founder uh what you know what can I do uh you know what's what's the best advice you can give me as a startup founder I say you know every startup is an overnight success but it happens on two thou 2000 night or 39th night and also you know today is going to be difficult and tomorrow is going to be even more difficult uh you know 10 year five years going to be in

five years is going to be even more difficult but in seven or eight years it's going to be a victory or it's going to be optimistic so I think just being around long enough and surviving is actually driving is how I view it and I think for you know for me I I I think this is a massively you know massively amazing you know kind of opportunity and is it this this is I I've been and I I don't know for me at least I've been always working at the intersection of hyper technology I don't know what I can do else you know and you know one thing that my seed one of the angel investors who invested in me uh told me was that

uh what I like about you is you know you're saying the same thing five years ago seven years ago and eight nine years ago I was trying to actually make figure out a way that you know writer and blogger can be funded with crowdfunding and now I uh after that I was trying to do with the fiction writer was an IP creator original IP creator now I'm trying to actually bring that ownership to other you know through crypto technology get IP holders to monetize or data holders to monetize It's it just a it will take different formats but you know I'm I'm I'm solving the same problem in a much more deeper and structure way is how I feel like I'm doing it with this and the beauty of uh

building story like ecosystem is that there's so many ways to attack this problem right besidon real world data is also an IP you know aari is using music IP right so I think there are so many uh such a large playing to to play in this battlefield. Uh so I think that's so it's very expansive uh on all on on all all the opportunities. So for uh for me you know you know as actually the at least the CEO as a shareholder you know like that's something I need it's you know I want I want to try it until the end.

>> Yeah. >> I would I want to try all the and you know that's that's how I view it. It's going to be obviously there's going to be tough days. I mean obviously I didn't like it when I didn't expect that kind of reaction. >> Yeah. >> Obviously that was a very reaction that I had to go through. Uh but you know you know life goes on you you keep fighting you keep shipping >> and I we have a lot of exciting things coming in the next few months uh with AI million >> IB partnerships you know. Yeah, I'd like to get into that. Sy five million views on the tweet was um I think I was over if if I had to bet an over under on the amount of views and had I known prior of of like what the tweet was going to say,

I would have bet under. So, it's pretty shocking. >> I was I would have just said don't even post it. Just just say just post your link to strategic advisor they said. >> Yeah. I mean >> Yeah. I mean your question Eclipse did an exit yesterday. They they restructured the entire team and did a CEO announcement. New CEO half the team half the leadership had had been either resigned or fired and it maybe got a couple hundredk views. But that's also the difference in magnitude of importance I suppose or just the way that it was done. I mean Andy Robbie I think one thing that I have to tell you is that you know when I was a first time founder dur even bigger

dramas right it's like you know I had like 80% of team things change the leadership team change the five out of the six made people they get changed and the thing about crypto which is interesting as I experienced it you're building a startup a startup is actually going public you're building it lish as a fourth year startup, right? And that's when you you see dramas unfold. you see things unfold in real time and that's a that that's part of the thrill and but that's also the part of the downside but you know and and I I think there that's just part of building in public right and and but but as you know startups there are a lot of changes all the time

there's pivots and so on and so forth and and you know that's how that's how it works but every every time these things happen you you evolve you actually it's I think the founders's job and and the team's ability to use this kind opportunity to actually grow to that exchange and you know and and you know and knowing startups and Andy Robbie you know I think you know that these things happen right and but but now I think for some reason uh you know it was it was just it was just blown up and a lot of misinformation here and there and you know I just wanted to have those things cool down so that I can kind of talk rationally about this and thank you for giving this >> well that's why I just got a couple

couple more things for you man because I'd like to talk about what's coming for you guys. Um, but we have some tweets that we need to address still, I think. Um, one of them is from uh, and excuse our naming of our crypto Twitter characters here who would never show their faces in real life and say these things to you, but would it say them online behind a profile, uh, we got um, we we we got a a claim here from Cryptocond um, which is a funny name saying um that he he's basically accusing you guys of dumping your foundation tokens on pipe investors for the digital asset treasury company that you guys recently announced. Um, and he's, you know, he's

basically claiming that you guys are racing for the door on story. So that's that could be that could be as farfetched as uh, you know, that's extremely farfetched and false. And basically the whole point of actually the digital as a treasury vehicle was that I saw it as another exchange listed right and if you think about the reality of crypto market and I think as a crypto founder making sure your token holders get their value is also very important uh kind of uh focus and this what this vehicle does is actually now there's an exposure

uh that uh public public market exposure, right? So, this is an excellent marketing vehicle, fundraising vehicle uh to bring in new liquidity, new attention to the mainstream public and institutional funds. You can't even believe it's kind of crazy because I started I had a web two company beforehand. A lot of the web two investors from my last starter funds actually backed my company. We we said we can send you the tokens with small contract vaults which a lockup period I think still 10 to 20 funds and investor haven't claimed their tokens because they don't like this wallets. It's like I just want shares I don't want to right like so so what's interesting is that most of still

crypto in a lot of institutional funds and web to investor they don't like holding tokens right they don't like holding tokens so this give a way for them to invest in these tokens and what the foundation uh you know uh foundation token does is foundation is not dumping the token the foundation is getting shared and the reason why to exchange foundation tokens, some other foundation tokens with the shares is that we really wanted to make sure this equity vehicle we control as a foundation. The foundation gets to control it, right? What if this equity vehicle as says I'm going to tell Vipto token that's going to be terrible

for the company for the ecosystem, right? And we just want to make sure the foundation gets a huge amount of equity in this vehicle, right? And also you know uh so that they feel they feel protected you know the tokens get protected and also I mean as a disclosure I also uh swap some of my lock tokens to the extent and I actually have the same lockup period year over a lot you know it's it doesn't evolve into >> I've heard that these lockups are significantly shorter on these digital asset treasury companies. No, I actually made personal decision for my I don't want to give any stupid misconception that I'm trying to dump tokens before the unlock through share. So I made it align with the token unlock and the

reason is I'm you know this is a I'm afraid for some kind of black swan event this public vehicle you know uh you know says I'm not going to choose the IP token strategy. I wanted to have the right kind of governance power over this enemy at the found as a foundation in my level so that you we can we can never see that happen. Right. Right. Right. So so so that's the thing and yeah I mean I I I guess for for us the decision was uh let's get the mainstream funds mainstream public to be able to invest into story and get exposure to IP token without buying a tokens because

still a lot of people think crypto is very dangerous asset. Second uh second the reason why foundation token foundation and I actually swapped some tokens was because we wanted to have as a we're gonna be the largest kind of share warrant holder uh as a as a block and we have the right governance over this entity and so that they can not you know choose to just suddenly get away from the you know token treasury policy that we put in place. >> Yeah. >> Right. or or or the or the equity company could go rogue and start spending money in other things, right?

It has to be focused the YP token treasury strategy, right? And you want to have the only way to have that is actually have the voting shares. My my only question on on the treasury companies is why was there any rhyme or reason as to the particular company you guys bought was like a brewering like a brewery or a brewing company and so was there I I couldn't really understand the overlap between the purpose of the company and now in employing this IP strategy was there any overlap or you just a company for sale >> as part of it is you're looking for a public partner with a very low valuation who's looking to pivot to a new strategy. So I I don't want you to focus

on the existing business in the future. They'll probably add validator business. They'll actually go double down on the IP system or stock could that's the that's what matters is not what it is now. And you know for various reason for you know governance economic financial kind of the uh profile the company it was the right partner to partnered with but you know in two quarters it's it's not about you know or three quarters hopefully it becomes about validator business investing into IP tokens investing into the ecosystem.

>> Yeah. Um, that's why another kind of trend here from the quote tweets was about um the lack of collaborative efforts from the story team when people are trying to build on story. So, one guy Bur says that it's impossible to get in touch with the team for support to build anything meaningful on it. He knew a team that was working working on some cool IP tech stacked with quantum scientists and physicists and story team said they're not interested at this time. And then also we had um a bit more of a famous kind of crypto Twitter fella uh cryptopathic who wrote that uh he tried to get in touch with the team uh

to collaborate on his idea uh which was own the doge uh his uh his doge IP community coin and uh he found it essentially impossible to work with story without locking themselves into the framework. work. Um, and so yeah, maybe you can just clear up some of the the maybe like business development or kind of like ecosystem collaboration efforts and maybe it's something that you're not even aware of, but I just wanted to put it in front of you. Yeah, I I think those are all fair kind of a kind of criticism, but I I think we have a very experienced team uh actually uh try to fill in as many inbound

requests uh as possible and we have several apps that are really building on but you know I I I take the fair criticism on you know not being able to fill in every single uh things in a in a in a fairly responsible way and you know we'd like to come back with a you know better way to get back uh in a timely new manner for these kind of requests right but but we have we have a sele systems that are that are uh that are being vibrant all well let's talk about some of them the uh the better stuff um the we got KBW coming up >> which I think you're excited about uh what is your maybe you could just

explain to us story's current setup up in Korea like what is stories stronghold over Korea? What is your plans? If you can share if you may some some stuff about what's coming for KBW and more. Um and then we can just talk about what's coming next. >> So I think Korea blockchain week is uh is coming up in a month. I think just I think some folks have to understand the context of Korea and and and then and also why why is SY so obsessed with IP and technology? Uh probably I think because part of it a big part of it is being Korean. Our biggest industry as uh is actually IP, right? We have BTS

Blackpink, we have Baby Shark, we have Squid Game, we have Parasite. All these are IPs that were born out. I mean solo leveling it's in the web IP uh omnition reader 3 point all these are very very strong IPS that came out of Korea local IPS that became global phenomenon right this all happened in the last 10 years and I think the smartest brains smartest entrepreneurs in Korea they want to go into the IB space and IP and tech space really right so so it is a as an IP blockchain working here uh you know Korea is a massive massive of opportunity. We have the founder of the BTS uh the company is CEO by CEO by the main production company behind uh

Blackpink and several you know top tech company former CEOs and founders you know former CM neighbor which is the largest tech company in Korea all these folks are actually shareholders or investors in the company or big big partners and big supporters. So you know being a building an IP blockchain Korea is a very important place and secondly I think Korea is also as you know the second largest crypto market besides US dollar. So Korea KRW was the most biggest trading pair was $600 billion uh whereas the US dollar was $800 billion for spot spot market in the last uh uh last quarter right and then and then uh we also huge users of AI so chacha

chatpt's second largest hey customer comes from Korea uh and also uh huge things happening with robotics physical in body ammo we're not going to create treachery PT but we're gonna create best robots with Samsung, Hyundai, LG, all these companies. So for us, what we actually have inflated in a month, I think it's going to be revealed in the next several hours. But just to drop an alpha, we're going to be holding a massive event uh with the biggest brands in Korea, uh you know, biggest uh biggest newspaper in finance, finance newspaper, economic newspaper in Korea with the biggest kind of blockchain kind of media groups you can imagine. and all the who's who of Korean piece are going

to be probably coming to stories event and we'll have a major announcements that includes uh you know nine figure TVL deal n you know and you know IP is doing massive things on the chain uh actually being announced uh as a part of this conference and you know uh so yeah I I think we have a lot of exciting things in terms of IP TVL IP things it can do with programmable IP initiatives and also a very very exciting AI initiatives as well that will be repealed in the conference. So I think people will be surprised. I mean I think you know KBW is a great event but I think most of the KBW folks the people

who go there at other conferences it's all crypto folks you can meet at Disney report on it so on and so forth our our event you'll see the actual tech and IP leaders in Korea who are shaping kind of uh you know Korea's IP is Korea tech Korea AI that is actually having a global influence and that's actually and I want to be able to facilitate that as a Korean founder between the West and Korea and that's what I'm very excited about and that's going to be announced in the next several hours. >> Very cool. Yeah, this is, you know, kind of a a full circle moment uh for you as well as this this story protocol going to Korea throwing this big event. Uh you dropped some alpha

that it it is it is very cool to see um a general product that can tie so many different companies and angles together. And so, you know, I I think it's also important to mention, look, like, you know, we appreciate you coming on the show and dispelling some of these rumors. It it takes a pretty strong character to stand in the face of adversity. Uh, and that's exactly what you did here today. So, very grateful for you coming on the show, debunking some of these some of this misinformation and sharing um kind of what what you've been through over the last few weeks and and also >> Yeah. and and and also you know talk talking to you know stories community

and so just in the last few minutes here as we kind of wrap up um you know what what's maybe a final word uh to the community after seeing some of these tumultuous you know times Korea is a big event there's going to be things that are coming out afterwards um any more alpha anything else that you can share to to instill more confidence in the community >> first of all it it seems like a tumultuous event in the face of CT. But these aren't afraid. I mean I I've had 100x bigger problem like cash project in the last company. I've had co-founders leave. I've had teams change and you know every single company virt you know you know like you know you know Facebook had Dustin Malovitz and Chris Hughes in year four actually Cheryl Sandber comes

in. Even Coinbase uh three first three four years Fred Ocean was there on top of Brandon Armster fourth year actually you know Fred Oceanian leaves and so on and so forth. So this these things happen all the time right. So, so for me I've experienced in the last company I mean 100 less bigger problems uh and and this was uh you know we have such a good momentum in the last few months I think it's unfortunate this was so emphasized but there are so many exciting things with soen grayscale the chapter 2 chi officer you know to to the IP strategy vehicle actually you know up the listing you know it's it's it's special for me because as I'm Korean I've been we are on Coinbase we're on NASDAQ all these

things but you know as a Korean founder I mean for some reason Korean founder rarely get on our bits uh for many reasons so you know that that was all very special a lot of great momentum and you know I I can't reveal to you uh in publicly but very big AI partnerships that you you you'll be surprised by huge IPs coming and you know in a month this event I think last year we we held this event called storyhouse where you know Kuzu of Korea came but here Now actual these are now who's who of IP in Korea the biggest business leaders in Korea and I actually you can say it's just like a small country but we are punching above our rate on IP from parasite to PTS to a biscuit gate to all

these things so I think it's for an IP train there's a real real synergy there and then even actually you know we we set aside in real world data AI licensing for physical AI model company robot it's huge because of you know you know Hyundai B Boston Boston Dynamics there's very very big things happening there. So I think actually you know this is not just a crypto conference it's going to be AI conference IP conference and the roster of the people the biggest game person the biggest K-pop person the biggest K movie person the biggest kid I give person the baby shark everyone is going to come and actually announce a partnership with story and I think uh you know uh we're very excited and uh it

was uh it was unexpected that this kind of news blew up that because I uh leadership change, the leadership grow and so on and so forth. But you know, but but I I I think uh I'm just going to think of it a thankful way, you know, it it gives hopefully attention to the good things that we have coming forward. >> Yeah. And thank you, Robbie. And I know I know I took a lot of your time. I know I know Ro TV just got to do like 15 minute, 20 minutes kind of. >> No, man. I mean, we wanted to to have you on to get your side of the story. I think we're going to let you go and kind of decompress and uh uh you know just have a conversation about this about this show. So uh that's why we appreciate your time.

>> Thank you for joining us. >> Bring me more bring me more. I'm happy to talk. >> Any fud future FUD uh message me I can I can I can try to deal with in in public. >> All right we we'll hold you to that. Sy >> I'll see you in Korea man. Thanks for your time. We'll see you next time. >> Thank you, Auntie. We love you. Really appreciate it. Bye >> already.