Tooling Trends: Current and Future Needs

Transcript

[Music] welcome everybody thanks for staying for our talk I know it's late hopefully we can make it spicy and interesting for everyone uh so my name is David found of x23 uh I'll I'll give the opportunity for each of the panelists to give a quick introduction of themselves uh and then we'll dive straight into questions do you want to starton hello hello well good to meet everyone my name is Kong uh flew in last night at midnight so it's good to be here uh I work on Agora we do uh governance software uh among other things um and you know you might find us if you voted on uh optimism Unis swaps a bunch of other places um and I'm excited

to be here and chat about Trends heyy everyone F from C go uh yeah I'm the product guy uh from the organization in fact we do governance we run notes and we also have a huge community in latam so yeah we are building I'm building CRA delegate dashboard uh yeah happy to be here hey guys uh I'm vett uh known and as venu um I'm the uh founder of K lab and uh what we do is we do uh data governance platform for Dows also providing you know insights into a lot of these uh governance data and happy to be here and uh I'm based in Bangkok so welcome you guys uh here yeah happy you

have you here you also organize conferences now which is apparently new actually this is our first time so uh hope you guys like it and big props to se team as well yeah thank you C team um and and I'm David uh your host for today uh we uh create AI uh tooling for DS and delegates um and you can yeah go to x23a to check that out all right so jumping straight in uh let's see what what trends are you guys currently seeing from from your tools that you've been building uh who wants to start with that any particular Trends let's say in the

industry yeah so we started developing CRA uh because of a need and internal need from sidg uh we as delegates we participate in several Dows besides doing operational management and everything and trying to organize all of operations and standardizer processes uh we found ourselves needing a software or a place uh we ended up using notion and also Google dogs and other stuff and other tools uh and each ecosystem has different um tools so yeah we try to build a solution for ourselves but also for delegates give them a head start uh so that's what what we are building and

also talking and people using the platform and getting feedback uh we realize that proposals are very important and especially for delegates that are being compensated and also calls uh something that's time sensitive so yeah one of the trends within the the platform is okay I cannot miss a proposal if something uh is about to end let me know um and yeah so focus on that um participating in community calls in token house calls uh so very um yeah notifications and everything that's uh the the the the only Trend that we are seeing since we are very young still uh maybe you can share your insights sure

did you have anything it uh yes yeah so uh what we do at qab is we right now our main primary uh product is the governance dashboard which pretty much have different types of uh governance data like uh to make it easy adj justable increasing the accessibility of these data including for example uh the delegate actions in terms of like he uh in within specific that for example optimism how many active delegates are there within the eosm who fre votes and how these uh votal Dynamics changes and uh actually uh how I started off is that uh uh I was engaging as a delegates

first and kind of like see the Gap a I wanted to know how much my for example voting power increases with like last month or like within certain periods I couldn't find that it's very hard to find that so I came up with this idea and then you know go through all the uh grants and it it we got pretty good uh I know feedbacks and like people uh actually uh like come and talk hey this is very useful so we kind of like double down on that and like start contributing start buing more of these stuff for other DS and that's how came to be and some of the interesting part is that uh we have seen some of the doubt that uh for example optimism use our dashboard

uh what we did is we helped them audit some of the uh incentives delegate incentives that they reward uh after the season and we kind of help them audit that uh the criteria that they set and the result of who gets the funding who gets the reward it's actually accurate and uh we help them on that side of things and we actually found some discrepancy on that side of things even though you know a lot of people work on it but I think it's better to have more eyes more data different sorts of data to actually validate like certain uh these type of data yeah got it uh what what trends have you been seeing from Agora data or Agora usage

[Music] um huh well there's sort of like uh the the uh the constructive answer to this and there sort of the the spicier one I'll start with the constru keep spicy as yeah I'll I'll start with the constructive and then we can sort of ease our way um the constructive ones I think they're sort of like um I think we started in this world of sort of very like flat governance for it was like everybody with a token votes on everything um and that's sort of okay you know it's like a reasonable place to start and I think over time we've been seeing a lot of like what Anthony has been mentioning earlier around sort of more granular permissions around things like not everybody should be voting on everything with the same amounts of controls the yada yada so this has been sort of like a general I think positive

trend that I've been seeing um I think across a lot of the major protocols that we've seen it's sort of like hey like if you want to send somebody 50 bucks shouldn't be the same process as upgrading or protocol shouldn't be the same process as X and Y and Z uh so that's generally been sort of like positive and I know that sort of like at Agora we have a system for this Aron has one too and and I know that tally has one with sort of Oz multiple oie Governors so that's sort of just like a general area that I'm like pretty excited about also sort of like delegating some of these decisions to councils you know not just erc20 token holders um so that's been good um other other fun things that are a little bit spicier is just like I don't know like

like uh it's very tough to have a business model in this in this space and like like it's unfortunate but it's just kind of true right everybody's trying to like figure it out so that's kind of like you know a trend that I'm always paying attention to is like what's everybody's char charging and like you know where are you charging are you charging how are we going to make real businesses out of these things that's always that's always fun um a ongoing Trend I would say for me and that's that's a good dve tale uh if if uh some of you guys have been noticing on the Unis Dow forums tally shout out to cool hill scale in the back um tally they they appli to to the Unis swap dial to get funding 500k over two years and there's a big discussion on that um and

and it's interesting because it's like these these fundamental tools to Dow governance like H how can we support these tools like through the business models like if a tool is asking a dow for money like how much questioning or scrutiny should should happen right so I'm interested to hear from from the panel like how are you guys thinking around your business like how do you either make money or support the long-term sustainability of your project maybe verit you can start sure um for me I see two distinct paths like one is to go through like a PL Goods Route there's like several like funding mechanisms that actually uh rewards you for

building uh public goods you know uh for example with optimism I mean it also depends on which St you're working with and whether that uh what are different types of funding mechanism exist within uh each type uh each Dow for example in optimism where the did like a not just the grant program where you you have an idea you propose all grants but there's also the Ral active funding model where you actually start uh delivering uh values and create impacts for the equos system for the for the collective for the DS and then uh there is this uh mechanisms who actually reward compensated you for those impact you created that's one and the other pad would be in terms of like more like you

know typical more kind like web to things you know service provider as you know you have like this subscription based uh you know you you go in and you ask hey we going to provide your service for a year and then you get compensated in like monthly or whatever you know the the deal of discussion is and generally I think doing this is much harder cuz you know you it's not like you you're not talking to one decision maker you actually like has to you know go through th vote and and all these you know a big uh voter delegate and stuff like to actually get your your deals or like your service pass through so yeah it's kind of like different yeah so pretty

much that's like the two main I I guess business model that I'm seeing right now I mean from our experience and you guys are mainly uh retr funed right yes retrun okay so our first project we received like virtual funding from round three which pretty much help us you know stay operating and everything I don't think we're going to be uh uh surviving without you know these it really helps us and contributing driving values for other ecosystem as well not just optimism yeah fa any thoughts uh yeah I'm I agree there is like the the the PO good approach and the for-profit approach um the optimism is a good ecosystem because you have you

get aurant and also if you get impact and you like provide value to the Dow um after that you can get a retr pgf and that like keeps the wheel moving so I think that's a good um model but yeah the thing is sust Su sustainability I mean I don't know where we will be in the next two years uh also the the the the Dow grants programs and the Dow funding location also it's experimenting so we will see where it goes um also it depends uh like who are your customers so if you are provid providing services to the D or you are providing

services to the to the delegates um and yeah so depending of your B2B or your b2c you need to go through the Dow or you need to apply to a grant program um so if you are pro for profit if there is a reasonable market for example for us uh or your customers are or or users are users uh we are probably good uh and we will not charge charge for for the application because uh we wouldn't charge and nobody will pay for this because the market is very U very small uh but I think it's very it's something that will help uh on board more people in sudow uh so it's all about

experimentation currently uh for longer term planning I think the optimism approach is good um and the public good uh is good because uh there's the Market's still very small uh and if you go like privately to a dow you need to go through the Dow you need to propose something you need to go through a grant you cannot uh do some contracts uh behind doors um so yeah those are the the feedback on the insights yeah I mean I I kind of triggered this question so um uh the uh I think there's sort of um you have a lot of flexibility depending on your size there's sort of like if you're

like a you know one to five person shop you're burning like maybe 100K to 500k USD at most like a year I think there're sort of like 500 lot like if you're burning like 100k something USD a year there's sort of like a lot of flexibility you can be a service provider you can be Grant funded you can be public goods funded there's sort of like a a pretty sweet spot for Ashley I think this is kind of like a unique space for a lot of people to be swimming around in this sort of like experiment Al building stuff kind of like service provision Grant funded this is sort of like I think we're pretty lucky to be in a space with so much funding with sort of people experimenting and then there's sort of this like no man's land above that right where there's just like ah

you have a team of like 15 people now oh damn that's a lot of burn um like what is the business model at this no man land Zone it's not clear I mean there are people out there who are charging things for real um like we're very lucky to be able to charge um money for what we do but it's not it's not clear that we have a really clear uh sustainable business model either um I mean there's a lot of people who have also like large amounts of funding from a lot of these protocol Dows but it's a combination of like service for software it's not super clear if sustainable some of these contracts are not really contracts they're more like streams from a doubt that you don't know if they're going to renew in two years um so I don't know I uh I don't have a really

clear answer for this um but it's sort of this like I think this miasma that sort of like clouds are industry in general which is that like you know like you can have fun with your friends and build projects and then once you want to be like become really serious like oh like what are we actually doing here like where's where's the business is there a business um and like I'd love to be forever public goods funded but like it's not clear to me that these programs even have the sustainability right to Forever public good fund very many things I had something to add uh difference between uh BC back products and non BC bus uh you can also be uh like a service provider in the middle

like in a great area but if you are misssy back you have flexibility because you have more funds but also you are you are like on a mission to be sustainable because you also have a responsibility so that's also a difference if you have B funding or not uh so yeah so I guess one one takeway for the audience is to support your Dow tooling whether through retro uh voting or or through helping them out in DS that that's very helpful um so we touched on VC funding and things like that I have a spicy question uh so one one thing that uh I've been told previously was that so sort of the tooling that's on this panel like sort of Agora uh you know our tools

we're sort of the new generation of dial tooling um there was an older generation of dial tooling uh let's say you know Aragon Anthony um you know cool house girl from tally uh also um yeah maybe maybe some other tools out there boardroom as well what what what do you guys think uh sort of what are what what's the new generation of tooling providing that the old generation of tooling is not can I just challenge the premise real quick I don't think these guys are old they're sitting right there yeah yeah see he's got gray skin old in the sense that they came from the previous Dow cycle right um and and sort of our tooling uh is sort of

coming up from from this new cycle maybe this new Renaissance of of dows uh and like I mean what's the justification for our existence basically like why do we exist and why haven't these older tools done what we already do right who wants to start that's quite a spicy question got to keep it spicy it's also Thailand so keep it spicy uh at least for me I guess would be because we do have some features that overlaps in terms of like data you know especially for example like boardroom or you know just uh some of like for example Tali right they had these some analytical uh stuff that is already on the the their Dow profile and

stuff like that but uh we actually think uh what we did is that uh we actually put ourself into the Dow as well like I also run a delegate team and we we kind of like uh see some of the stuff that there's a gap that people in the wanted to know and uh we provide that because uh instead of like uh going really really wide and like covering all the Dows we focuses on particular DS that we work with and we feel our value align with the down and we actually uh uh you know just from participating we kind of learn and like knows what they really want for example uh like some of the stuff we do for optimism like cuz every

di is not the same not all di is the same like they has their own characteristic their own parameters in for example defining even who is a active Delegate for example like uh in in like for example arbitrum uh they has this criteria on their new delegate incentive program right you need like 65% being active on uh all chain and option proposals that is not the case for some that uh I work with for example safe where uh they actually consider if you they're not expecting all the delegates to actually vote on every proposals but rather uh they would consider you uh active if you vote in

the last uh three Sprint they have their own government Cycles cuz uh not all the decisions they're not explaining like the delegates to vote on everything and that's that's they still considered those active so these like fine uh parameters I think that's what uh we pretty much are doing well on that in terms of like translating into this tools that is tellor made for for each St um I think the difference is like um development and like scalability uh they are developing like in some years now uh they have the product and they need to distribute it and maintain and establish

there already established but uh for new tools uh it's more easy to test to do some proper Concepts uh there are some new experiments going on and you can provide a solution very quickly um for those projects uh it's not easy to adapt to the new uh like Trends uh and I think something like what Apple does like they it take so long to develop a solution but when they like release it it's good at least maybe sub it's it's relative but uh something like that so yeah we have more flexibility and we are more easy uh it's easy to to to uh release and launch products and features so yeah

it's all about learnings and we you see what like goes well what goes wrong uh they take a bit longer I guess any thoughts to share on this um well these guys are just in the room it's very awkward right yeah it's keep it spicy you want to keep it spicy right let me let me like you asked what's what's the difference right like I think there there's a lot of things that like I think the Aragon teams and um and the T teams do really well I am very jealous when I heard today that apparently Aron you guys haven't up updated your your uh your core contract in like a year that's sign of good design right there right this is sort of like oh you guys have to built something modular where you don't have to design the like re re redo the contract every couple of months

to add new features good stuff good stuff I know that T's been working a lot on their reaking stuff and their staking protocol that's really exciting too there's a lot of diffs you know between all of our um it might look kind of similar but I think people have like slightly different but very meaningful bets that like I think differentiates all these platforms everybody's doing really good um and y'all keep me up at night for sure and not not in the way that I want uh to be frank um yeah I lose sleep over this stuff all the time and I think everybody's doing really good I don't think that we're competing like new tools versus old tools everybody's very competitive and building really great products I just wanted to add on that as I think generally like cuz our space is very very small and so comparing to like

other industry and I feel like we need kind of like more people being on this stuff to actually solve the problems that we had in the space you know having just one people trying to solve we might not you know see things from other pers perspective from like other builders and I think yeah our the stage of our like industry is very early so and I feel like yeah you need more people solving the problem true I mean I I agree it's better to make friends in the industry um instead of calling them out but you know also also it's it's important to to have have honest uh conversations as well um I guess okay keeping keeping within the panel then uh so three of us

are non-vc funded and one is VC funded uh let's talk about that right Dow tooling and what are the conflicts of dial tooling and and being VC funded maybe you out I'll let you stop and and yeah just just man just you going at it okay um no we I mean we we we we we've for a very long time we not VC funded as well um and I think for us it was never about refusing Venture funding like it's it at aora it's always been sort of our ambition to build something really big and meaningful and Lasting and like we have conviction that there is a venture scale outcome here but we also are not convinced that it's going to play out

the same way that like you know a lot of crypto investors wanted to play out you know the like you know the like preed seed series a token like one year Cliff bada be bada bum dump on retail um and so it was very important for us to find the right partner um to sort of work with where they were like oh okay maybe there isn't going to be a token here and that's okay right like we when we were fundraising we were very upfront with our investors like there might be not there might not be a token there might be a token there might not be one if there isn't one you have to be okay with it um you also kind of have to be okay with this not potentially taking the sort of you know one year per round and then the

token path so um it really narrowed down sort of the the range of investors we could work with um like you know like a lot of investors have very large funds that only make sense if they invest in token projects that return one bill plus tokens and that's just the fund economics that you have to be aware of um and as long as you're sort of steering clear of those sort of working with investors who have the flexibility to accommodate a range of outcomes it is not so bad um but you are signing up for like you know in a a a very large outcome over a very long period of time whereas like we can no longer just be three people and have a good time you know just doing services and cool experiments that is off the table for us now and that's always been okay with us

we've always sort of like knew that that's not the kind of company we wanted to build but like once you do take on the Venture funding you can always buy your investors out and yet yada but it it becomes more um complicated so I uh if you're going to take on Venture funding you just kind of have to know the the path that you you want to go down uh how about you fa because we mentioned before about uh VC funding and and not taking the VC funding path what what are your thoughts on this yeah it depends on your goals and your bets and if you know very well the market and you know where you want to like go and what's the vision and your customers or your users um you need to be very sure it's

not not a shock to accept VC funding and responsibilities uh so it's legal now the team the the founders co-founders uh it's a total different path um and we are okay right now being prob good um also if a time comes when we spot maybe a prod Market feed or um yeah something that like goes out of proportion uh we might considering scaling scaling it up but at the moment we're okay we are flexible uh it's a whole different story for V back funding uh you need to ship uh you need to get pro market feature and yeah also you need to find a

business model obviously so yeah not much to add we see fun and not we see fun I mean generally uh for me at least for qab uh we do actually have an investor but how how how how it happened is more of like their kind of like incubated us and then they got like some part of our Equity rather than just they invest in us you know like those kind of stuff but I feel like having these also investor also had its own benefits and cons uh benefits in terms of like hey you you you kind of

like have this uh account ibility or responsibility to you need to met in terms of like hey you cannot just do whatever you want you know like you you need you need to have these you know all these plan and like kind of road map and stuff that you need to you know go through to actually not just like you know whatever you know and uh the con of it would be like there's could be less flexibity you can do if you already commit that you you want to on work on these problems you couldn't just like hey I want to shift to AI only now or you know nothing related to what we are currently doing that's might be hard maybe you need to set a company set up a

new company to to do that kind of stuff and uh yeah uh and also whether to get funding or not funding I think it's all comes down to uh do you actually find the product that is product Market fit and you really want to scale you need you need the money to actually scale to dominate the market uh and and yeah you might lose out if you don't scale quickly stuff like that so yeah it comes down to whether you have that uh pmf good good point um try on the topic of spicy stuff uh so so the other the other part of VC funding

right is is in a world of a tool that gets VC funding but the VC has a large amount of vo tokens they can vote your tool in usage if if you're selling to the dials uh so something like like stable labs they had a tool that um you know got adopted and and stable Labs also has a voting uh like has tokens to vote with um I wonder what your thoughts are on like conflicts uh from the panel like around this and and how do we as either an industry or as tools like overcome these sort of conflicts that I don't think are talked about enough right so how would you yeah are stable Labs delegations from their VCS I didn't I didn't think

so not from their VCS no but just like like there there's a conflict the potential conflict is that whether it's from delegated from VCS or it's your own tokens should tool providers like ourselves should we be able to vote for our own tools to be implemented right well uh in my point will it also depends on whether what are the code of conduct or like the policy that is being uphold with it's Dow for example certain DS might be okay for voting for you like uh conflict interest stuff and but so now it's a it's a big no no right and uh and also like we like we do have some proposals from from like uh coming from

Korea uh even though uh we we always upan so at more like for us is more of like a ethical kind of like thing that we want to uphold as an organization so uh we always substain on that but I mean it's it's not right or wrong it all it all come depends on like for me at least uh for the policy within each Dow I would say um yeah we were talking about this a few moments ago um I think uh well at least in Sid go for example we also managed the program the incentives program for delegates and that's a proposal that we uh drafted and

we got selected but I think in that case will be very similar I mean we SG is not a tool but we it's a thing that benefits us uh so in that case we usually abstain and the community vote I think when you put yourselves yourself out there uh it's very easy to be like spotted uh or if you are doing something unethical or um yeah if you're very being benefit it's very uh Shady um a shady situation just you just want to be transparent uh and avoid any type of conf conflict because your reputation is on like uh um yeah it's there so uh yeah I think there should be

shouldn't be a problem everybody knows everything is transparent uh and if they spot and you're doing like edgy things uh if you are spotted uh yeah you can end up your your product yeah I mean we're uh we're intentionally only very very small personal delegates in most of the places we work for precisely this reason I mean for for us also there's sort of this like you know like if your voting platform is voting on a bunch of stuff like does it delegitimized the voting platform so we Tred to just only have like literally a test amount of Delegation for ourselves um and I think the sort of like obstain approach is generally how how I think it it usually should go now there are cases

where it's like I think this might be stable lab too where like there's some people are such a large delegate that they're basically required to vote for anything to pass Quorum and so it's like is it fair to ask them not to vote on their own proposal given that they're a large constituent part of the Quorum and if they don't vote nothing passes it's a little tricky so I also understand that there sometimes like if you wish that you could abstain but realistically if you abstain you know things don't pass because they don't reach Quorum it's it's a little complicated yeah but maybe uh you're not reaching Quorum and if you abstain you are being like uh like it's going to pass or it's going not to pass but it just uh gets like um The Proposal uh past the Quorum thanks to your vot so

in that situation abstaining is the key component of the not every not every doubt calculates abstain towards Corum that's what yeah sometimes sometimes they do yeah yeah the govern nerds here are like yeah but it doesn't always count maybe something for aor to standardize not so long ago I saw a situation where it like the quum like was reached just because somebody AB abstained so in that situation abstaining is not the solution or well it depends it's it's not uh yeah it's a gray area we have this very weird definition of Korum right this is sort of like how Korum is the find on Governors is just not the English definition that anybody understands in my head it's like if you show up you

vote No it should still count towards Quorum but it's just like not the case for a lot of Governors it just depends all right so so we got a few uh a few more minutes um let's let's look towards the the future of of dows now and what what are some future like what are you each of you um designing in your tools to get ready for the future of DS like give us a a vision of your future that you're building for who wants to start anyone a sustainable business model for everyone woo that is a dream yep I can go first uh oops uh yeah I mean the future

of I mean I think I would bet on like th becoming more intal in like uh other things Beyond just crypto like I feel like uh wa right now is more governing like protocols governing uh stuff that is more you know web three deep stuff you know all those protocols all those blockchains but uh I would really want to see in the future uh that uh these kind of model distance like organizations and how we coordinate uh people across the at scale or could be used in other context not just crypto space that uh and I really hope that uh

we reach that point I know it's like quite a huge gap in terms of like the ux kind of thing like and also like learning like people needs to learn is very hard to onboard people you know you know these are all like nerdy stuff that we we all do right and sometime it's not that easy to get in from like everyday people to understand the concepts and everything and I think uh I hope at least in the future uh these things uh people just actually don't think about it but like you know got involved and and like more like the infrastructure is running and operating and like serve people allows people to coordinate and and and successfully do like achieve like a goal to work towards the same

goal the same Mission yeah got it uh I like the approach of like different Dow Dows not just uh protocols def protocols or blockchains it's interesting well you need a token but uh yeah you can uh bypass that I don't know but um yeah I think you have the da experimentation like the da future and then problems and then needs and then the tooling for that like betting future so um in my case I think maybe professionalization of the Dows more councils new types of delegates or

non delegates I don't know we will see how it goes each though is experiment ing uh and in the experimentation you get different needs that might maybe the solutions the current Solutions are not solving so um yeah so and maybe like I would really like uh this course alternative uh being adopted also um I'm like everyone uses this course uh the forums um but yeah I I think it depends but maybe professionalization and EXP mentation within the delegates and councils and committees uh that would be interesting I get a non- festius answer

I guess um the I don't know I um future of what was the question future future of dows wishes for the future of dows yeah what what what are you what future are you building towards I'm hoping that there's a world where we like vote a little less and vote a little better um you know it's like I think a lot of things today are sort of these like General referendums where everybody you know gets to like would wave their pitchforks um and so uh I'm hoping for a world where it's sort of like a little bit like we know the kind of decisions that we have to make the right people who should be making these decisions whether from an expertise conflict of interest alignment of Interest perspective and like people are voting in like smaller groups with more informed uh um context and so we're sort of like doing more

decisions and better decisions with you know less General thousands of people many of of whom are farming you know the next airdrop voting on everything uh that'd be nice right just um better decisions yeah absolutely uh do we have time for questions one one question okay so we have time for one question in the back there um hey I was just kind of wondering like a broad question about maybe like how you look at open source and how that like contributes to your business model I'm sure that's maybe disc discuss you had on like the VC funding and not from that and uh maybe like for other projects looking at that

like what are what are some things to consider on like how to build a business model with uh with open source it's a good question I think uh you don't because uh you you're beating open source right oh yeah I mean look we're um Agora is open source in a little bit of a strange way like we all of our code is open and it's MIT licensed but we haven't had a lot of time to make things very easy to contribute to we have had in our entire history like two other external um contributions we also are just joined I don't know if Mike's still in the room but uh like this open Zeppelin uh working group to uh push uh oie Governor forward agoro Governor itself is a fork of FY Governor right so we're we're sort

of this like deeply entangled uh in the open source World um and that's I think for the best honestly um and the the cool thing about working in this space is like I don't know I think a lot of you curia is probably also open source but it's like a lot of like foundations and DS require you to be open source frankly and they really want to see like not because they want to contribute and they want to Fork but because they want to they want to see what's going on right and so we're kind of like lucky and unlucky that we don't always have a choice on this um and if we're going to be open source I think leaning into it is actually the call um and yeah I don't know I uh Open Standards Advance everything right this is sort of like

one thing that we've benefited a lot from and would love to contribute too as for how it like in meshes with VC funding I don't really think it's contradictory most of the most of the most of the most valuable companies in this space are completely open source um some of them have weird licenses but like you know most of the time they're 99% open source um and it has done nothing uh to diminish the value of these all of these things in fact it's kind of cool it's a cool thing about crypto right that you can build valuable networks on top of open open uh Source software that is forcable but hopefully nobody is incentivized to Fork I don't think we're there yet I don't know if anybody in the doubt holding space is there yet but that's that's that's the dream any other thoughts on open source

100% agree yeah if uh yeah it don't uh diminish U value of the the the the yeah the value that that you can like AC so if you're open source and your product gets used and adds value to the people and yeah you have users uh uh and you are building a better product at other one uh they need that's you need to to the that's the mode thing uh you need to be to build your mode and if you have that your open source uh I mean it can lot of um great products are open source so it will not affect uh yeah I guess uh I believe uh some of

the Dows we work with we pretty much have no choice like they kind of require you to be open source there's one out there that puts it in the contract yeah but uh yeah I mean uh like some of the things I mean like sometimes for example for uh in terms of career career like uh the open S side of things is sometimes is not applicable and everything like we do in terms of like hey for example we are building this uh database uh we need to C uh uh data from our source of place and uh do we open source our Cloud you know I'm not sure how you do it but you know there's only

certain part that is that is possible to open source for example uh front end or like uh the data the data layer is the most valuable part of like CER right and it's like how do you even begin to open source this stuff it's a quite tough yeah and and I mean we can open source how we calculate this kind of thing like yeah but at the end of the day you know uh sometime uh there's just too many parts you know to like it's it's complex and and yeah I guess that would be it all right well on that note thank you everyone for coming to this panel thank you nice thank you guys thank you Andrew for moderation Kura for helping us to

organize the event