Tea.xyz: A New Way to Fund Open Source Software with Max Howell

Transcript

[Music] welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we are building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive some digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and it's published every Tuesday and Thursday if you want to lean learn more you can visit our website at Green pill. Network where you can download the green pill book for free join the Discord or become a member of your local green pill. Network chapter my guest today is Max Howell who is the CEO at t.x YZ and is formerly the creator of brw which is a famous open- Source package manager from the web tubo Max has been an OSS Dev since 2004 has been working on open-

Source software for almost two decades now and it was those insights that led him to create Brew which is one of the most famous package managers in the open source software development ecosystem you can Brew install many packages on your Mac in order to set up your Dev environment and Brew was once the top package on GitHub which I think is just a Monumental feat of contributions to open source software for Max uh Max has created a lot of great software in the world and unfortunately his open source software contributions have not been well compensated Max has had to uh work corporate jobs and contribute to open source software on the the side and I think that that's a fundamental

Injustice to the world that open source software developers the people who are creating our digital infrastructure which creates billions of dollars of economic value per year are not compensated for the work that they do and those of you who have been following my career since before I started green pill know that I founded gitcoin which uh had the original Mission of growing open- Source software and funding The open- Source software developers uh gitcoin has since moved on to focusing on all different sorts of public goods funding what matters in your Dow ecosystem and uh has brought in its aperture to Beyond open source software but there are projects like Max's t. XYZ that are focused on making sure that open source software developers are well

funded so T is a package manager kind of the successor to brew you can see what Max is doing with the mimics there going from Brew to T as his project names but T is a project manager that allows you to install packages across many of the popular ecosystems out there pip mpm the rust ecosystem and more and then from there uh it creates a dependency tree of all of the different packages in the open source ecosystem and builds a web of trust style data structure so you so that it can map out which projects depend on which pieces of infrastructure in the open source ecosystem and then it builds an economic infrastructure on top of that logical infrastructure that

allows people to support their favorite open source projects either with donations or with staking tokens and so um I'm really excited about what can be done with the knowledge graph that is the open source software dependency tree uh web of trust is what powers Google it's what powers page Rank and it's just a really really powerful methodology for making sure that we understand which packages are creating the most important impact on the world and there are things deep down there in the stack that we all just take for granted open SSL or uh nodejs things that everyone uses that there isn't good economic incentives to maintain and that's the problem that Max is trying to solve with te so I think in a world in which Max is maximumly

successful open source software developers could quit their job and they could get rewards from te or protocol Guild or gitcoin or any of the other open source software or public goods funding infrastructure out there and uh you could quit your corporate job and work on open source software and that's just wow that would be such a beautiful world if the billions of dollars of value that was being created by open source software developers if the universe karmically boomeranged back back to these open source developers and helped them pay their bills for working on open source software so this is a special episode for me because like I said getcoin when I first started it we were really focused on open source software and there are other people who are picking up the mantle of really focusing on open source and finding ways to pay the software developers and I

think that that is a moral right in its own right but it's also going to be a really convenient way for web 3 to go mainstream web2 software developers are very influential and they' built our digital infrastructure and we should be funding the open source software developers so I think you're going to enjoy this episode with Max hell the CEO of te. XYZ enjoy it Valley Dow is an open Global Collective working to finance and democratize the governance of synthetic biology Technologies to protect the future of our planet research and progress into synthetic biology is critically constrained by the world of nation state regulations and bureaucracy from middlemen but the potential that synthetic biology has for the world is massive it can produce a world in total harmony with nature we

can grow stuff using cells like software it's awesome and the best part is we no longer have to pull carbon out of the ground to grow and maintain civilization don't you think we should be funding this Valley Dow does and that's what they're here to do to try and make the solar Punk World of Tomorrow a reality today so join Valley Dow right now and save the planet at Valley dow. bio what's up Max how you doing hey great to be here thanks you really glad to have you tell me about tea well tea came from uh personal needs um I got I got into the whole programming malaky uh through open source it was what inspired me to actually get into the industry and uh be

a programmer before that I'd uh tried to be a scientist and discovered it was uninspiring I think was the the surprising thing about it and so I S I searched among my other like minor hobbies to find something that I found programming but that wasn't enough it was the open source component that really dragged me in like I remember when I got involved in it 2004 I discovered all these little niche programming communities uh that were really just trying to make a difference in the world that was what inspired me the most they like we don't want a world where companies like Microsoft are making all the technological decisions

about how things work we believe in free software We Believe in the power of liux with uh its ever so important gnu part as uh the gnu people will always tell you but it is an important part and I found like groups of people that I started making software with and it just great and then I discovered that that's not enough in this this life you need to somehow pay your rent and uh pay for bills and uh money money is important and there is no money in open source certainly wasn't in 200 for uh so I got myself into the industry and uh I created home brew while I was working at a startup in

London and uh that that was like a turning point for me in the respect that uh I quit my job and before that I'd been working on open source part time or was living with my parents for a bit after University uh but then like I wanted to work on open source fulltime but there was no way to do it had a bit money saved up and I worked like about six or seven months before I ran out I remember going to the bank and asking them what happens when you dri draw because I was just like such a noob when it came to money in general and they were like well you owe us a bit of money I okay great um I better get a job again like my whole career was working

four people contract startups so I didn't really like big corporate stuff and then also doing open source at the same time a lot of the time like I say I had two full-time jobs because especially with home brew for those first few years uh you know I I I couldn't sleep because it was so constant the amount of uh attention the amount of contributions it was getting and uh I just felt this incredible obligation to make sure that H Brew was as good as it possibly could be I think a lot of the people that get into open source feel that yeah well Al say over the years I've been trying to figure out how

open source can be funded like how people like me can work on it full-time and T is well I hope will be the final solution to that taking my like uh depth of experience with how open source works and the kind of people that work in it and what motivates them and applying that at the blockchain layer in order to try and make a unique Banu distribution system and yeah we I think honestly over the last year or so that we've been working on it we've figured out like a

correct solution that has good chance working well uh great to hear about your journey and um I just got to say that I'm a huge fan of Homebrew uh for the for the audience home brew is a tool that you can use on your Mac to brew install different software packages on on OSX so you can Brew install node Brew install a bunch of different packages and something that I've used to help accelerate my my trajectory in open source software and I really resonate with you in your story about how you had two full-time jobs but you're only being paid for one of them uh there's this this same famous Trope in open source software that all of the tools that we use that are part of our digital infrastructure

are maintained by people who are just doing it on a hobbyist basis and uh they're not getting compensated for it the way they would with physical infrastructure I think the stat was something in the billions of dollars a a year of economic values created by open source but there's no one that's actually funding that stuff so it feels like uh we're connected on on those two levels The Homebrew me being a user you being the author of it but also just noticing that open source software developers despite cre a lot of economic value have not really been able to pay their mortgage by by writing their software and it seems like T is kind of designed to correct that asymmetry and build off of what you learned with Homebrew is that right like I'd say it's more than billions like the the truth is

there's almost no software nowadays that is exists without some open source part and uh I mean you got like attribute like a portion of the value of the entire software industry to the value of Open Source which um is crazy honestly to think about like back when I got involved in it in the first place like we never imagined we hoped we dreamed there was a lot of idealism in that early part but then along the way we got dragged into like a burgeoning industry and I I described like that as say to part of the reason it happened it

was like gradual thing so a lot of people got caught up in that and yeah they they maintain these like essential pieces of software and there there's no compensation practically nothing um there's more money in open source now but th because of commercial open source which I think is a very sensible um reaction to the the necessity of Open Source and also the fact that open source really does make the best things in the end um not always the user experience is sometimes like lacking but the developer experience is usually on point um so you know you need you still need regular business for

certain kinds of things but those pieces of tooling and libraries and Frameworks underneath everything uh open source is the best way to make those yeah yeah we've allowed the people making these things to go like you know into despair sometimes through the fact that they can't figure out how to continue to build this stuff because they love the fact that they built it like I I did I was extremely proud of home brew I can't I can't say it didn't affect my ego for a while I was 20 something and I had this like incredibly like it was the biggest project on GitHub for a long time like first five or six years of its

existence eventually getting overt taken by something Facebook made which I know that was bootstrap Twitter's bootstrap really pissed me off but it was in the D you know like um H was just a package man at the end of the day but it was just a wellmade one yeah like that you hear all the time about these people that uh just Rage Quit open source and sometimes they're maintaining like really fundamental infrastructure and so far you know nothing really terrible has happened but I feel that we really are at this like Peak this Crux CU like I say like this Ascend towards the point where so much software depended on people doing it out of the goodness of their own

Hearts has just built to like this Pinnacle Point this Cliff hanging moment we have to find a solution that isn't just companies like Google and Microsoft and Facebook hiring these people um you know for a long time I just didn't see what what the solution was I you know I hate sponsorship and I hate bounties and things because well sponsorship relas because it turns open source into a charity and I don't hate bounties but I don't think it's aligned with like long the long-term success of Open Source because it encourages um the people with the money

to dictate where the project goes rather than the community and open source is all about the community like it's built by that Community the people who get the value out of it the people who understand what the problem is that they're trying to solve and that agenda needs to remain with the community and like I love the fact that you know with crypto you you get um that aspect the community governs the project via tokenization so it it just feels like what we're building with tea has this natural fit which sometimes it Spooks me a bit is how I was meant to build this thing

that's amazing um I mean I I feel in a lot of ways the same way about my work and I know a lot of people who are using web 3 for impact feel feel that way also and um I think it's interesting what you said about Homebrew being the number one package on on GitHub but you still aren't really monetizing it other than maybe it Strokes your ego a little bit to have that it probably give you job offers sponsorships bounties but those are really like taking the web two corporate business models and bolting them on to open source and it seems like there was a journey where you're looking for like a more internet native way of financializing Open Source and rewarding software developers and um you know that journey I think is one that I've seen a lot of Open Source software developers

go on uh along the way and they they either end up just grinding or they get burnt out and they drop out or it feels like increasing more and more of them are getting into crypto only begrudging begrudgingly you know crypto has its own problems but I think that uh you know it's it it'll be interesting to see how you take these learnings and this this sort of life's work of yours and and package it all up into te which it sounds like is a web 3 era package manager it is how how would you describe t i I just wanted to say how like I've seen a lot of Open Source people in web 3 that uh I didn't realize what in it in my journey because I I didn't really get into it before and one of the things I've realized is that the the community that

first got me into open force is actually basically the same Community that's building web 3 and that like makes me have like a lot more confidence in what we're building because those people built web two right it wasn't the droves that came once Web Two was a huge success it was those people back then that built the fundamental pieces and back the packages are the ones not the same ones you see on magazine covers the people are drudging and building the infrastructure are the real Builders of web 2 in your mind yeah exactly but it's um really encouraging to see that like I want these people to uh be able to build it outside of the

agenda of like uh the web two compies that I didn't say much stuff like just yesterday I saw a company that I really like it B by AWS and that keeps happening right these commercial open source companies they they don't actually survive open source is forever but companies are not and yeah we're building Like A system that slots onto the the the emergent system that open source is right because like nobody imagined what they were forming back when those guys originally like designed Unix they didn't realize that they were like inspiring like entire ethos a way of working a way of

building out in public for free yeah like exchanging ideas and uh you know that the capitalism doesn't B on to that is the truth that's why it's failed that's why open sources not managed to find funding right I remember when home brew got quite big and then um mpm had just gone quite big and the the I made mpm uh realized that he could probably get funding for it and he did so on VC just randomly found my number God I didn't ask not well they found me up and they were like can we do the thing with home brw and at the time like the very idea of Open Source being able

to be of business was like pretty new and I didn't see how it could be done but especially with home brew like it was too late um turn it into into a company there was too many people involved and yeah I didn't want their contributions to be a slap in the face you know then turn around and say hey no now I'm going to monetize it and like that you know that's going to have consequences to what home brw is and how it's built and where we're going so with t it was very important from the start that we just didn't change the fundamental nature of Open Source but instead just recognize the huge value it has and then know where that value is and so yeah

part of it is this idea that package manages like intrinsically understand the relationships between all the different packages in open source like package is a terrible name yeah yeah but that is what we have can't the FR it's the front the front door maybe to the whole infrastructure that you're building is the package manager but yeah so yeah that like all the different package manages are what we're using um to to build out this um what what's going to be an oracle on chain that um ranks all the different projects based on how important they are we're using um a form of Google's page rank to do that uh

because we realize that uh the dependency tree of the packages is uh like a reputational uh assignment like when a package is considered important and useful and mature its dependencies be they uh things in mpm or lower level stuff like open SSL are considered choices by that person uh that that group of people that have that reputation so we use that to build out this graph and so we've um got I think 30 million packages in this thing now uh gradually putting all the package bonuses in but we'll be launching our essential test that later this year with

uh I think the six including the Big L you and P P cargo uh because Russ is pretty cool and uh people will be able to participate by uh committing a file to their repository signed with their wallet that they'll uh have on on chain and this gives us the information we need to uh associate that project with that we're hoping the wallet will be um not a person but you know a dow and uh we'll be providing like suggestions for how to like instantiate that uh but you know it's a key part of what we're building right so I want how

the token flows to be governed and not like going directly to anyone specifically uh but you know this whole other conversation I I'm I'm always seeing like a square peg in a square hole where uh earlier in the conversation you were talking about basically rewarding open source software developers according to who's done the most important work in the ecosystem and rewarding the infrastructure even if it's not the visible part of the software ecosystem and then also you talking about how with a package manager you already understand the semantic structure and relationships between all of the packages and you're kind of building up this page rank style web of trust between all the packages by looking at their dependency trees those

two things to me feel like a square hole and a square peg and it's probably like that Insight could probably only come from having run a package manager being very familiar with the emergent structure that that is open- Source software so it makes me really excited about the the approach that you're taking to solving the financing of Open Source software yeah we're glad to hear that like it's difficult for me not to feel excited about it but I'm looking forward to having more and more people especially the open source Community excited about right like I say find that a lot of the real open source players are into web 3 already so I think it's going to get a good onboarding effort when we do launch our

ATM but uh getting the rest on like there's there's crypto skepticism um for sure like when we announced this project last year uh we went straight to the top for hack news and then they closed the article because of the crypto connection but we had this huge influx of Interest and users and then like suddenly dead and uh barely managed to get back on the front page after that strange that there is so much skepticism for project which really does want to do good but I do understand um there's just been too many scams in the

area in general yeah that's fair yeah like I do feel that how we're doing it Maps well and uh it SS like one of the bigger problems that is these fundamental projects that nobody's heard of that uh need um support the most uh you know like last year there was log 4J project which was a logging piece of logging software for Java and uh massive exploit loads of Enterprise servers were immediately rootable I think Minecraft could be rooted by typing something into the chat and uh nobody had ever heard of the

project they didn't even realize they were using it right there's a certain depth of dependencies I think people don't mostly understand well you do when you check out your mpm modules direct rot Tre like just how much open source there is and how deep it goes and how you have no idea sometimes why one of these packages is there and uh someone's maintaining that and if you go to the mpm page you can see just how many people use using it sometimes it's phenomenal numbers of people and users and yeah those ones down at the bottom like even when mpm added that thing where it was like please donate core.js still didn't get enough and the core.js guy or two months ago declared how he just couldn't do it anymore I I don't

know what's happened with that story since but that's why I say we're at this sort of Trux this Peach I really think we're a shft hang a moment for it and uh so the timing for two is Hope just right what this evokes for me thinking about this open source infrastructure and just how vast it is is thinking about the underside of a city where there's a bunch of electrical wiring there's a bunch of structural support there's sewers there's probably a bunch of different infrastructure that I'm not even aware of and I think you would just like take it for granted unless you actually went down and could see the plumbing beneath all of this stuff but imagine you had a whole city billions of dollars of Economics that was just maintained it its Underside its

infrastructure was just Main maintained by volunteers I think that sort of paints a good picture of our of our digital infrastructure and how it's maintained these days yeah exactly well obviously the people who maintain it generally are having a good time still or they wouldn't but well I maintain this L people promise kit which uh I built 2014 or so it's just promises for iOS but as Peak it was used by 100,000 apps don't what don't know what the number is nowadays like apple repl made a first 12 support for a single in the language so probably less but well still get every time there's a new version of X I get a bunch of people like coming on and say hey it doesn't work you got to fix it and uh you know we can talk about the enen that people use open source all

day if you want but I'm not going to go into it it's not something that I I feel it because I feel that entit on some myself the stuff I you so I don't I don't have so much a issue with it some people do and uh you know I I go in and I fix it where do I do that I don't even use it anymore right I used to be uh an I I used to do a lot of iPhone development uh now I haven't done it in four or five years so I don't use this Library so I go in and I fix it sometimes other people do not usually one more game nothing and ASP 100,000 apps some of them were apps like Netflix and Uber and McDonald's and I never so much has got like a free Big Mac or a Netflix subscription or in

their them you know look I I kind of have sympathy for these companies because like they use tens of thousands of Open Source packages so how can they realistically like donate or sponsor or do anything really like even if you had a department that their job was to try and hunt down these projects and the people it's an incredibly manual process like stuff like GitHub sponsors has tried to fix that um unsuccessfully I I I actually only say with my experience because like I get uh I think my current sponsorship rate is $8 a month from GitHub sponsors uh I don't need the money right

now or anything but like if at any point that had turned into enough to pay like say I don't know half my rent I would have taken it more seriously than uh try to uh increase that like I'm not someone who chases the dollar I like money who doesn't but I I don't I can't work just for money I I have to care about what I'm doing or I just like tune out and stop that's by far the most important thing is that I'm passionate about what I'm doing so I'd much rather be working on open source well PRI te know feel what I've started here te is like ideal I came up with the idea one

evening while hunting for things and managed to get the funding fairly easily and uh we've been building since like I'm I'm lucky and I I value it yeah so you know these big companies like I sympathize um so you know I feel that that's another thing that he brings to the table um automation for that aspect of things and we're going to actively pursue the idea that corporations can like donate in a charitable sense to the graph uh and they get that tax break that they also want while simultaneously directly um assigning the value to the the

packages that they actually use and like what tooling we're building uh part of what it can do is automate that on a companywide scale right can uh you can install T and it will tell you where what patches you're using across all the different Stacks so that that piece is also easy to do although considering how um how the how the chain is going to work like you steep against uh packages and all their dependencies automatically get pieces of that reward like we split it off so the uh person we call it steeping because

it's not quite staking right because we're not using Pro it's a clever branded uh branded name there yeah I uh I wish I come up with myself I was my chief protocol offic so came out that one CU I like names so you steep against any any any of the packages right there probably be an incentive to find packages that aren't that well steeped um you know there there'll be a a play on the Tang so if you find one that isn't well known but still has good tank then you'll get a higher reward so you get a reward and then the package gets a reward and then that reward keeps F all the way down tree the graph of Open Source so even the cses of the

world will get funding and what's cool about that is like packages like C should get a lot based on our calculations and I don't think that's wrong per say I'll be interested to see how the community reacts to that because cjus is important but it's not sexy which is why there's only one and stuff like open S SSL is important but also not sexy very difficult to do right very scary to do right and so we've kind of ended up with not many competitors in the space even though Home Source is usually a place where competition happens naturally because people are trying to solve their problems and if

they don't find one of these things solves their problems they just build their own put it out there and see what happens so I'm maying like there will be this competitive element where people you see that CJs gets a lot of token so they they'll build like an alternative that addresses problem points the core.js has well they can just show that they're maintaining it in a more active fashion and attract that steeping as a result but like I'm also excited about some of the other stuff that we might be able to do uh probably not version one but like version two where we uh allow the tal to decide if uh security issues in your packages are severe enough to slash yeah um that might actually go in V1 so

I think it's a powerful reason for why the protocol is more than just a system for identifying value in open source right it's also about like holding these project somewhat responsible like you're getting token out of this so you kind of now do have to make sure there isn't any security holes in your open source then considering however s is just everywhere now you know it's surprising there isn't more Exile pools that we know about or uh some of these exploits not being known about and being exploited on a large scale so it feels like you're kind of creating an economy around open

source software that feels more internet native than sponsorships or bounties or job offers and um for me it feels like there's there's kind of two major sides of the market there's the developer can which can go in and their package by signing something using the t uh the T tool set and then um there's people who can come in and steep or drop rewards on any subset of of software and and you maintain the sort of web of trust between all of the packages and lets it trickle down and uh it it's probably one of the first systems out there that's going to be able to really find the ssls or the core js's the things that are not sexy the things that are deep below the infrastructure and make sure that the

rewards trickle towards those really important projects and I I'm building up this mental map in my mind of this double-sided market and this really sophisticated graph web of trust between all the packages in between them is my conception correct I'm just trying to summarize it for the audience and so Val value it if you could if I'm getting it wrong if you could correct that no that sounds right to me you know there's this huge it's it's like there's an existing Market you know which for some reason nobody managed to figure out how to appropriate value and yeah that's I say previously the current economic systems we have just don't map onto it and so

there's been tons of people who try to just app like capitalism essentially to open source and it just doesn't work or you know Mak it a charity it just doesn't work and uh we all want something to work so yeah I like the our approach using these new technologies and in the correct way one of the things that I'm I'm just really excited about it reaching the Deep infrastructure projects that no one really appreciates because they're so deep in the stack um gitcoin grants and optimism rpgfan ecosystem that are trying to fund public goods but they all kind of in my mind suffer from this Ian beauty contest

problem where it's uh it's sort of a beauty contest of which things are the most visible in a way uh the decentralized reward mechanism and no one has really cracked the Deep infrastructure layer rewards I mean with the exception of like layer one blockchains which have the block rewards for for securing their networks that's probably like an unseen job but uh you know the people who are building those client software no one has really figured out how to how to monetize it scale maybe with the exception of protocol Guild so this really for me feels if if it works it's going to feel a real Niche um and it's I think it's going to be an important way of showing people in web to open source and an influential group group of people in web 2 open source that crypto isn't all scams there are scams uh in crypto but

just like there's bad websites on the internet you don't throw out the baby with the bath water when it comes to to those things so that's the niche that I'm seeing te could fill uh if and when it launches and is successful yeah we should be say a centralized testat L this year main that next year early next year but yeah like we really hope that we will be uh kind of bridge from Web Two to web three for for people when they see what it can do like we'll launch with um a website you can go to that shows like how much token your project would be met if you signed up if you on boarded to our protocol and I can't help but think that that's going to just get a load web two type open source devs to you know try out crypto

for the first time those just too tampl right see what token you could be getting in that respect uh for the audience say you're inspired by this Vision say you're a software developer how can you get involved yeah so we got a bunch of stuff in all get Hub already let part of the pieces that I wanted to build for uh he was was a successor de brew a second package manager um what it's evolved into is more like uh MPX for just about everything um which is finish up by launching version one of started we uh so we've got a bunch of stuff there including on white paper

which I made so that it's marked down converted into PDF by pandok um because I just wanted everything to be iterative open source so you can open up a p request on all white PID for we toate the bills translations and things but uh the protocol pieces are not yet but they will be over the next few months so if you go check out GitHub TX YZ te a XYZ um and then that's also our Twitter you follow us there we got quite a good following now we we're just generally people who are passionate about open source and want to make it even more successful I just kind of imagine you know even like for myself I can't imagine where I'd be in life if

I'd been able to work on open source full time like we hard time I managed to make a couple of like really significant open source projects we just want to make it so that that's a choice to everybody that I really want it to be something where people who work at Facebook or Microsoft whatever right now like can quit because they know that they can build this own s project and that they're not worried about how they're going to like live on that I think it's a it's kind of a waste honestly like how many of these talented people are employed by these companies to do sometimes really stuff that isn't for the benefit of m co or or the world in any way yeah or leverages their their highest skills

yeah exactly so for the audience just to recap you can go to tea. XYZ and you can get involved in the project from there there's links to the GitHub there's links to the Twitter and there's links to your link tree so you can get involved with the project there um last question for you Max in a world in which you're maximally successful what does that look like I try not to dream but if T protocol could really like help open source just reach the next level and make it so all these people who work in open source like I get private DMS all time for people who are quietly optimistic and they really want this to work you know if it could make open source into a trillion dollar in the

street then that would be I I'd Die happy for sure well you know what res really resonated for me is when you were talking about people who worked in Corporate America being able to quit their job and work on open- Source software I think that that's you know trillion dollars is a big number but when you look at it on the systemic person byerson level I think that makes it a lot more relatable and so I'm excited about that world and I see a lot of sort of my optimism when I was building getcoin and you that's probably just me projecting that on you but uh getcoin which is the project uh one of the projects that I'm a co-founder of the original mission was grow open source software and we were focused on this problem back in 2017 2019 it since evolved into all sorts of different

public goods and pro-social things but um I'm glad to see projects like y'all and radical really still focusing on on open source software and I hope that you're successful thank you and uh well you thank you for gcoin it really he's still an amazing thing but I just say like can't fix it all with bounes yeah well it's been quite a ride I I'm really excited to see see a plurality of people who are working on sort of similar problems but from different angles in the space and you know we talked about open source being a trillion dollar industry one day I think that maybe uh there's a future in which if you're an open source software developer you're getting a certain amount of income from protocol Guild and a certain amount of income for getcoin a certain amount of income from te and

from optimism rpgfan it's in that plurality of incomes I think that there's a lot of anti fragility that could come um that could come from that but a you're not depending on any one economic system but uh but but be it it's sort of interesting to have multiple streams of income if you're creating value on multiple layers so it'll be interesting to see how these things all interoperate with each other hopefully Unix style they interoperate really well yeah that's good point and uh we must remember that the lever is like one and as you say it's fragile for there to be one system but there's a place for each of well I think that's a good place to wrap Max thanks so much for coming on the show Good Luck with t and looking forward to to seeing the test it

launching hopefully later this year great thank you for watching [Music] peace you just heard from Max how of t. XYZ I am really excited about funding open source software developers I think it's a moral R for the world I think it's going to help web 3 go more mainstream thank you for listening to the green pill. network podcast this podcast features the Builders of a coordin we're building a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive some digital systems to the world I think Max Howell and T XYZ as well as anyone else who is working to

fund open source software developers are great examples of that if you value our work Please Subscribe rate and review it really helps other listeners help find the green pill movement and network and I would really appreciate it if you could take a minute out of your day in order to subscribe rate review and share this episode with others peace and love see you next time