Symbiotic Mainnet: Why Modular Restaking Matters with Felix Lutsch

Transcript

each Vault can have one collateral type and has like basically this its own slashing rules and its own like sort of Delegation strategy that means like you can use that asset in the vault to stake to multiple networks if those networks accept your restake stake so like let's say you have $100 million in in the vault basically say to the network hey I can bring this 100 million in security to your network I would delegate to these operators do you accept my Vault essentially and then the network says yes and um you can sort of decide which worlds to work with ultimately the core goal of our protocol is to make decentralization easier of course there's going to be a cost to it but like that should be as slow as possible sembi cor protocol is the first step to achieve

[Music] that I'm here with Felix luch head of ecosystem at symbiotic hey Felix i s great to chat to you yeah it's been a while so a lot of people will know Felix as my co-host is epicenter but you've also spent a long time at chorus one so uh definitely in the kind of epicenter chus interupt family I'd say extended family um but yeah how's it how's it going how you been yeah very good it's been very busy time with symbiotic and mayet launch which we hopefully going to talk about today a bunch totally and

like yeah also impacted my uh Epic Center co-hosting so I have done many episodes in the past I hope to like return a bit to that the coming weeks again if I find some time yeah but good to be on this side of the table as well of course yeah yeah absolutely so I think uh Misha was on epicenter just a couple months ago and um you were actually on the interop um at um at staking Summit in in Bangkok so we did a little episode there but since then there's been the main main net launch which is exciting and a lot of stuff happening in the symbiotic ecosystem so we're going to dive into that but just maybe starting off for for folks who are maybe not super familiar with symbiotic or how it's different from other reaking providers as a foundation for this

conversation what is the founding vision for symbiotic and how has that evolved since Inception right yeah I think the core premise we work under is that uh shared security like is I guess it's a concept that has been there for a while and everyone sort of interested how can we be more kep efficient and you know share the same resources to secure these decentralized networks you know and our core premise here is like how can you remove as much friction and and make it as scalable as possible and basically enable decentralization because like ultimately the core goal of our protocol is to make decentralization easier and um you know we've seen a lot of like I

guess directionally moves into being more centralized in in crypto and so we believe that shared security is kind of the best bet that to maintain Central decentralization of course there's going to be a cost to it but like that should be as low as possible and the friction should be as low as possible and the sort of bootstrapping cost to build a decentralized network should be as low as possible so Semitic cor protocol is the first step to achieve that from our perspective and yeah I guess how it differs yeah I guess that that was actually question I think there's like just a bit more of um focus on the flexibility and kind of the modularity of it as we like this the in the in the crypto space this work uh where there is less of a opinionated like top down approach of hey here's how

our shared security works and you have to like opt into it and you become like sort of part of this system and you have to follow our rules like the parain auctions and things that were there in before but rather hey you can build your own like sort of shared security logic and you can like adjust it and opt into things with other networks if you want to but you know you're not forced to you're still Sovereign you we don't control anything or we don't make any choices for you so symbiotic kind of designed to achieve that right so symbiotic I think one of the things you mentioned here is the permissionless nature and the modular nature and the ability for protocols using symbiotic to um have a high degree of sovereignty over how they interact with their SEC with the security providers and the the

um High degree of agency around the structure of the network how much of that comes from the Cosmos app chain thesis or how much of that is kind of inspired by that philosophy and it's it's kind of interesting you mentioned polka dot because I think like Cosmos and polka dot have very different differentiating views on like how a network should be constructed where one was more sort of centered around this idea of uh permissionless application sovereignty Etc where the other was more of a cathedral model where uh the the the NEX structure was a lot more topped down so maybe uh philosophically you know like how much of that is aligned with those Initial Ideas around application chains with sovereignty yeah I think it's definitely pretty aligned I think we're

you know overall more also thinking about you know the ethereum ecosystem and you know what's been built there and trying to in a way like how ler CHS did it for I guess like execution environment and having like rollups do the same for staking systems at large which can also be like part of the rollups and um there there's certainly like alignment in the vision there but I think you know you still want to have this liquidity Hub or settlement Hub on ethereum and you know that's why the core contract are also on ethereum which basically makes them like as secure as ethereum because they're also immutable to core contracts there's no like additional governance from our side there is uh you know pure solidity there so it means like which which a lot of people do like right if you have your

token on ethereum you can like use it as staking there you can also use other tokens where there's a lot of liquidity already in ethereum and even if you like bootstrap app chain through symbiotic staking even the validators of the app chain couldn't like change things things about your your Tok Supply because that would still be like kind of managed on ethereum so I think that's philosophically where it like diverges a bit and also like in terms of like just access to liquidity and things but you know just in terms of sovereignty and app chain being um custom in in what they do and and just sort of the yeah philosophy I think it's very much aligned yeah so one of the things I think that's interesting also about Sy biotic is that it's it's multi-asset so it has this multi- asset approach and

which sets it apart I think from other reing protocols that are single asset approach or have a much more top- down approach to curating the assets that are used for reaking like why do you think this is useful and do you think that like in the end will there be a longtail of assets that are securing applications on symbiotic or will things sort of naturally still concentrate on a small number of assets you know eth BTC maybe salana and and some other like Blue Chip assets I guess my my question is like is it worth having like this amount of you know sort of complexity to create this open system when in the end most likely I think in my view like only a small number of assets will actually be

securing stuff yeah yeah it's a fair question I think the way we think about it is more that yeah sybi or the modular stack I guess overall is also a stack that is more targeted or suited for like a sort of application Centric development and you know cycle where like I guess that's why application specific chain that's it's actually the same direction where essentially the app itself should control or like secure all the um infrastructure that it needs to operate or at least like partially secure so let's say you are um per Dex and you have your application specific chain and maybe like also the Oracle on for that per de or also the interop

between that perex and other systems can be secured with the same sort of assets and and that might be actually the the asset or Tok of this app itself so in that sense for within that app you know all the INF is secured by their own token may be extended by stake from Blue Chip assets like eth and BTC just to you know have additional security or maybe in the early phase of the application where there's no own token yet that has enough value bootstrapped by by those assets but like in a flexible way right so maybe you know when you become more mature you kind of can use more your own asset as security and then I guess if you become big enough and you build your own ecosystem you know others can use

your asset as well to secure their you know if they're on the per de now it becomes like its own chain and there's like lending protocol that also has something to secure that can reuse like the security that's already there for the rest of the the system and and it goes in a direction that like also I think you know been exploring the cosmos ecosystem with with MH security and and and so on where you have like sort of these economic alliances and um also security Alliance in within the the system and what do you think is the the role of Bitcoin here and how how does symbi compete with the likes of Babylon in terms of say like the I I I'm not sure what the right term is here but like the the security around the assets

where I think like Babylon because it's built infrastructure that essentially like utilizes native Bitcoin for reaking whereas with simbio you'd have to use some kind of like wrapped Bitcoin uh um as far as I know right to uh to utilize Bitcoin for for reaking so how can like how does symbiotic compete there on on particularly like on on eth or sorry on bitcoin yeah um yeah it's a very good point I think um if you want the staking to happen like ultimately right now our the stic contracts are on ethereum and they're CM based right and they they are because of the design it's more flexible in terms of what you can do with the slashing and

sort of with the staking system overall meaning like you have more expressivity more you can build more sophisticated staking and slashing systems and this is like not possible if you do like Bitcoin native staking so you're quite Limited in terms of what you can actually slash for and like provably like verify on bitcoin basically and so like the Bon staking system like uses these this um the system to to essentially leak those keys and then you can like slash that but yeah I guess it can be used to like a very kind of subset of slashing inactions like double signing but not much else so in a way you know symbiotic can help those networks that want to

receive Bitcoin security by like you said using some wrapped asset that is that could be provided by different bridging systems in in Bitcoin there's also like ibtc I guess is a good example of one of our partners where they have this decentralized custody Network for for Bitcoin and the system itself is secured through symbiotics like the bridge actually has like Economic Security there and then their ibtc asset can be used in symbiotic and can be um slashed so it goes through that extra step but uh you know the ibtc system for example and and there can be others can can still represent Bitcoin Security in in symbiotic at large so we we have like a bunch of teams that are interested in

that and want to you know maybe bridge and do like more complex you know staking systems but are within are interested in Bitcoin security that that want to use these kinds of assets so what kind of what kind of Protocols are interested in using Bitcoin security and I guess this is maybe a good segue into you know ecosystem and applications that are being built currently on symbiotic like what kind of Trends are you seeing there and what trends are you seeing in terms of asset alignment yeah um I think there's a few things right I think we do have a few use cases that are more like ethereum Centric where it's around like you know extended in the capabilities of the proposer of ethereum or the block Builders and like or making them add Economic Security or credible

commitments to to their blocks and the what what's going to be in them which is like sort of this pre-confirmation Paradigm where you can essentially um allow people to basically say you know I'm going to include this transaction if not you can slash me and and things like this so so there's definitely like a bunch of systems like that in in symbiotic there's also a lot of um cross chain interoperability or just this generalized infrastructure that in crypto is getting there and and being used for everything right like I guess interop oracles automation Keepers all these systems are also being built on symbiotic maybe with like additional twists in terms of how how they target their their user like the rollup that they're targeting or the application

specific chain or you know in terms of like what kind of stake they're they're um taking in um and I think you know overall right we have a big Resurgence in terms of Bitcoin and using Bitcoin in Defi and a lot of the teams are are interested in that and want to maybe also attract just the Bitcoin Community to their project and doing that by enabling Bitcoin staking and also Bitcoin as an asset that's just relatively cheap in terms of um paying for like the additional Yi you have to pay to to get it to secure something is thought to be lower right so so a lot of teams are interested in that and then I think you know what's what's worth highlighting I guess there's also um yeah new use cases that symbiotic flexible architecture can be used for um

to um that goes beyond you know pure proof of stake or securing like a network of nodes but rather basically goes in a in a direction of maybe insurance or um you know providing collateral for for margin trading or for securing certain parts of like a D5 protocol where uh um because the the collateral is already in our vaults and the way it's designed like you can you can essentially use the the slashing mechanism to redirect funds should there a certain event be have been triggered on chain let's say in a case of a landing Market if there's like bad Deb that has been ACR you can use like sort of the symbiotic Vault architecture to

trigger like this insurance event and then you know like the the re the restate Capital would be slashed to pay back the the borrowers that suffered from this bet that in so that's like one way where we can like actually extend the the way the capital is used and and make it like even more Capital efficient for the people that want to use that collateral because it's been used in so many different facets so so this is like a direction that is interesting it's also interesting because I think it it does open up like new more risk for people that that stake so in some ways if you do these products and like people stake towards those they are taking on more risk different than like proof of

stake where basically it's kind of like a very risk lowrisk activity generally right the the amount of slashings overall have been like you know very low like 0000 0 1% probably of all blocks have slashing so here you know you move differently on that like sort of risk reward curve for the underlying collateral and you know that people users need to be aware of like currently there's not much there and I expect you know in the future there will be different vaults that take on different like trade-offs there where one of them is like only doing low risk staking activities to Pro say networks and others are more high risk you know protecting a lot of insurance events and stuff like that and and you know the the

depositors ultimately self- select where they where they want to sit there on the risk curve very cool yeah so you talked about like new use cases that symbiotic enabl so Insurance could be one of them is there are there any other use cases that your your bull on like perhaps even use cases that fall outside of crypto where we could use reaking Primitives to secure some other type of application that is not native to crypto yeah in that path I don't think I think it's prey crypto I guess it's like at the heart of crypto it's um but I guess you know the assets that can be used potentially as security can actually be outside of crypto so like you know rwas are are an example where you potentially that could be also come an asset class that can contribute within the system

one of the challenges is always like you know what happens when you want to slash these assets of course if they're like very centralized control like the issuers of these assets are centralized entities then there needs to be some interaction with them because you cannot really unwrap and burn the the underlying asset so there needs to be like a a different path of of this essentially like yeah some somebody kind of leaves it open to the user of the consumer of the security what it actually means to slash like can be just the tokens are redistributed to some other address uh that like like a governance treasury or something so they would wouldn't actually be burned for example so like in in an case of an rwa I said maybe

that's better than trying to like you know burn down the underlying house or something obviously like you you like like ether or something that really can be natively in the system in a decentralized way be slash that's going to have like different um kind of security characteristics than like a super centralized asset yeah I wanted to ask you about rwas do you think it makes sense for rwas to secure I mean I guess this kind of comes into the financialization of staking uh conversation which is something I also want to talk about but um like what what do you think is the role of rwa so whether that's you know um untangle uh

assets like US dollars or or bonds or more tangible assets like like real estate what what do you think is the role there yeah I think ultimately I guess the goal or of our crypto Financial system that we're building is to like have these processes and these things be um hosted on chain and I think reaking or I guess generally defi like if they're integrated in these protocols that brings more of a like sort of incentive for for these assets to actually move on chains like you know the first rwas or the first stable coins that you know access this additional yield from these systems can probably bootstrap more or like accelerate the process of bringing all these things on chain because otherwise if you if you

just earn 5% yield on your rwa on your trafy account or you earn that 5% on in defi it doesn't really matter right but if you can use that asset in defi somehow and like get additional um yields from additional risk exposure too but then that makes it attractive and probably brings more people onto the chain and then you know ultimately like kind of moves the entire um system on chain so I think that's kind of like the Catalyst let's say but then you know in the long run I guess it's a bit hard to tell it really depends how how intertwined sort of the real world becomes with the crypto system and and how they can yeah how these systems like actually work or is there still just a centralized issue or that just can deny what happened on chain maybe and and you

know rug everyone that obviously isn't isn't design that like I guess the systems are still very early for for that for me to like how that can work yeah I mean the way I see it is like you have I separate the asset from the infrastructure so we have assets and those assets most of the world's assets exist on traditional Finance rails as as we call them and then you have crypto Finance rails that have birthed a whole new category of assets sort of with Bitcoin being the the main one and then a number of other assets that have come after it and our goal as an industry should be to try to move um the assets that exist on crypto rails or sorry on

traditional Finance rails onto crypto rails so in the same way that before e-commerce we still had Commerce and we still had goods and services being traded then e-commerce came along the internet came along and now we have goods and services being traded on the internet now where it gets interesting is the use Cas the new types of use cases that that enables so before the internet we couldn't have things like deliver or Uber or Amazon but now that we have this new infrastructure that enables this new type of Commerce right of product or service and that's where I think crypto becomes interesting is okay like what does it mean when you start issuing when when the US government or the the FED starts issuing bonds directly on chain what does it mean when

most of the world's currency is traded on chain in the form of stable coins what does it mean when land Registries are native and and and real estate Registries are natively on chain and there isn't this kind of middle layer right where you have some paper version right like some tra five version that is wrapped up as a derivative on chain and I think that that's where we get real Innovation that's where going we're going get real sort of new net new use cases and net new applications when those traditional finance application or assets that c currently on triy Rails start being natively on crypto rails yeah definitely agree I think you know I guess the first wave was always more about like or maybe it's still like that right where you kind of mirror the asset

that's like kind of in the traire rails but you also sort of put it on chain and I guess like it's moving more on the Spectrum to like okay it's actually you know directly issued mostly on chain and there's no digital twin or whatever like there's all these words that have been used in the past but I guess that that's going to be like a process still excited to see like some of the I guess this whole narrative is definitely coming back and there's like a lot of like teams working on that like Ono right plume actually we we're going to work with plume bit uh and um you know all these other teams Mantra I think that's a huge one as well right definitely the interest is there for yeah but as far as I can tell as far as I know right like

things like plume and Mantra and onto and Ando are still operating in this creating the the digital twin aspect like and so that that I think I think that it's natural it's normal for the industry to start like Kickstart the rwa transition this way and I think if you look back at how the you know how the internet and e-commerce and so the early days of Internet Commerce mer um started evolving it was very much like this right like e-commerce was kind of slapped on top of like existing Logistics networks Etc that were more catered towards like mailin or phone in orders like I remember this right like in the mid 2010s and that at some point

the entire Logistics chain started becoming uh really purpose-built for internet Commerce and I think that that when that transition happens we're going to start to see real innovation in crypto and new types of products that we've never seen before uh and new types of opportunities that have never existed before now what those are is yet to be seen But like that's where we get the real um yeah definitely so let's talk about the Vault system a little bit and um like what's unique about symbiotic Vault system and can you talk a little bit about some of the partners that you're working with yeah I think definitely like on the Vault side you know we're it's kind of this core primitive I would say that we use to have these multi-asset staking and to to have people build their um custom

staking or reaking systems and you do that basically by like each Vault can have one collateral type and has like basically this its own slashing rules and its own like sort of Delegation strategy where like that means like you can use that asset in the vault to stake to multiple networks if those networks accept your your stake your restake stake so like let's say you have $100 million in in the vault basically say to the network hey I can bring these 100 million in security to your network I would delegate to these operators like are you fine with that like do you accept my Vault essentially and then the network says yes and um so you might like add up like three four five depends

right it sort of depends on the the default work there so everything's opt in in symbiotic and and from the network perspective again you can sort of decide which worlds to work with so you might have like your own Vault that's like kind of Foundation staking Vault that has your own token and then you accept like some extra security from some other Vault that's run by uh these these curators we call them so basically like wall curator can be like a risk manager or like an LRT platform like like an ethery and then you know they start to also contribute stake to your your network and like the interesting thing here is that because like all these have like custom setups and you can also within your network so basically there's this network middleware that like basically the team that the project that

trying to use staking develops that can also customly reward or customly slash vaults right so um you could for example build like a more complex system where you know one type of Vault gets more of the yields or more of the rewards that the network generates but also takes on more of the slashing risks or you know other like sort of trenched and financialized sort of staking systems all with the goal of essentially making it possible for you to build a staking system that suits your whatever you your the goal of your network is right and and especially also trying to do it in a way that's you can exchange the vaults right you can change

and adapt the system over time according to the life cycle of your network so let's say you're a very new network right you maybe don't even have a token yet you want to bootstrap your security you're using like eth as a secur asset and then when you get like your own token you you start to swap in your own Vault that that that uses staking of your own to and so on right so so basically the system should like allow you to um build a staking system that can last forever by and and doesn't need you to like you can adapt it like as you go um by like sort of swapping out these vaults and should basically be F future proven and sort of support any kind of staking design that you might have in mind and and as a capital allocator how how should one be thinking about where

they're allocating their stake and what are some of the consideration that one should keep in mind when staking with any one of these vaults yeah right like so yeah I guess it's kind of like Risk rewards question these vaults depending on how many active delegations they have they they will receive more rewards like currently like many of the rewards are just kind of like points based But ultimately right there should be some fee generating elements to that and on the other hand you have kind of the additional risk that you take on from slashing so there will there will be different trade-offs and they can be very variable let's say like I think right now the system is in a very early days like actually most of the networks that are there like the 14 that we

launched to mayet with some of them just have staking designs but they don't have it activated yet there there's only like a handful like like Prime F I think is the one that has fit fully integrated and also the discoverability of some of these risks is like still getting better and better right so that you can actually also I assume over time there will be more tooling we will also like invest in that and build out a bunch of this to make it easier to like see you know what kind of risks is this exposed to this Vault you know the history of of slashings and you know how also the reward element of that like currently if if you look at the symbiotic app or the front end you you mostly kind of see like the points you earned and you know the where the stake is how it's

relegated to which operators over time there is already like a few other dashboards I think one from inception LRT that that also shows like some some similar information but you know I guess over time these will develop and then you you will really have like I guess the ideas that differentiated vaults that that have like different risk reward tradeoffs got it so yeah let's talk about the main net launch a little bit so you guys launched uh just about a month ago um it was a huge milestone and so can you talk a a little bit about some of the some of the metrics like what's the tvl how many networks our partners are currently involved with main net now this will probably go out we're recording this on February 20th

this might go out in a couple of weeks cuz we have a pretty packed lineup of of episodes but uh hopefully that that I think by the time this goes up maybe some of this information will be uh uh will be a little bit stale but um yeah H tell tell us a bit about the launch and why you're excited about it yeah for sure yeah hopefully all all numbers will have gone up at that point but yeah I mean like I guess a core part is we roll out the um core contracts like with full slashing functionality and the wall system that I talked about and the initial networks that integrate the full symbiotic system to secure themselves and you know there's 14 Partners there that like use the symbiotic Security on the demand site initially we already had this deposits contract live for since

June uh where you know like some of the TBL was basically predeposited so there's been like a lot of like eth s and other eth derivative assets like stake derivative assets and uh some Bitcoin assets and and some other core partner assets sets of teams that we're that are planning to integrate or in the process of integrating symbiotic and consuming that security and on the other side you have the the vaults that are now hosting the the Stak so basically there's like a migration period from this predeposit vaults we call them to to the now actively delegating vaults controlled by um LRT providers or independent risk curators like Gauntlet or node operators like like corus one like figment like Kiln they essentially

can set up these vaults and attract Stak to to then delegate on these networks or restake across those networks and you know right now we have I think close to 100 vaults there with various amounts of stake in them so basically you decide on one Vault with your TBL and they they delegated there's probably like 10 or 20 that have like significant amounts of stake uh currently I think it's around 400 million so it's like about a fourth or a quarter or 30% of the entire stake that's already been migrated partially also from the lrts who were depositing through these rapper contracts so like end users of lrts kind of have this process automated if you're like

directly depositing in symbiotic you need to do this like manually um and yeah those delegate across like also I think almost 100 different operators that are registered in symbiotics system so basically operators register once in the symbiotic protocol and then they opt in with their entity to different Networks they can take stake from different vaults so so the nice thing I guess kind of worth mentioning is that you essentially only have one operator like Master entity and then for each Network you sort of opt in and and and you can take on stake from many different vaults from different partners and have have different settings I guess for for each of the partners which for the node operator makes it like a much more scalable system if there were like

a lot of different networks which we already see right we already have 14 and our goal is to like basically host entire decentralized networks that that are in the existing existence so if that all runs through the system then like it's it's much more scalable than for an operator to have to set up like special operators for each partner they have and you know all all these things attract new stake and stuff like that so um yeah that's the current state and yeah we're we're working on many new like Partners completing the Integrations for some of the existing launch Partners like you know there's external points or rewards coming from from many of them slashings or like slashing systems are being

rolled out in stages so depending on on the partner that that will take different amount of time but yeah that's where we're currently at and yeah very excited what what are you most excited about in the next like six months to a year like in terms of Partnerships Integrations and projects building on symbiotic yeah good question I think we're yeah really excited to say part in this I guess aggregation let's call it or um bringing back together the um unifying the this system that we created that was got very fragmented right like especially in ethereum with like many l2s and many different stacks and I think you know Sam can play key role in economically aligning in the security

and and sort of of those of those different systems and so so that's what I'm excited about I think there's like you know a few um like things in the L2 space where we we're already seeing some teams like Manta using symbiotic for fast finality and then we we hope that like you know on their chain like they can also use other symbiotic networks to and then secure them with the same Stak so for example Monta could use like interoperability from a from a project building on symbiotic like a hyperlane and secure that with their own assets as well so those things are are the main ones and then I think also like like the the Exotic use cases I think or the nonp use cases that we we sort of touched upon I think are very interesting you know there's there's a team cap Labs

that is building like a stable coin essentially which which uses restake collateral as like kind of a mechanism to to um hold accountable the the person the people that generate yield for disable coin it's a bit of a more complex system probably worth checking out uh but um and and those Insurance use cases that I was talking about you like I think they will play a major role in the longer run and we're excited to see how people use like the flexible primitive that symbiotic core protocol provides so what's the end game for for symbiotic and for reaking in general like where do you see this going in the next 10 years you know if we look really far out yeah I think the end game is

that sort of all decentralized Network or onchain systems use symbiotic to um hold accountable the actors in in the system and to automate like some of the penalization and and rewards system that these systems need today we're very focused on the proof of State part of it and some early signs of success are there but you know the end game would be that you know any type of like collateral use case is is covered basically you achieve Capital efficiency through that because it's all built on the same kind of wall principles and the risk sharing can work very well if it h if it reaches scale I think that's yeah and like what do you think of uh this um what how do you address these

concerns that reaking ends up just really centralizing a lot of the applications that rely on ethereum security so vitalic talked about this and there's been a number of people kind of sounding the alarm that reaking and and liquid staking generally ends up being just a centralizing force how do you think about that yeah I guess I think it's actually like the opposite right actually liquid staking has contributed in decentralizing ethereum more than if it weren't there especially right like without Lio definitely ethereum would be more centralized because it would just be controlled by big custodial entities and it already is honestly like you know recent discussion I think like coinbase

runs like 20% of all of ethereum validation right so I think this trend would be much more pronounced if there weren't like a adequate like sort of the centralized solution that liquid staking provides yeah reaking is is more or less just an extension of that trying to bring extra primitive to make like building something fully on chain actually like Al economically feasible and in the wake of that like kind of try to give more power equal access to to different partner parties that can participate in the system because you know it's open source it's like a protocol on chain so like anyone can be an operator there's no like necessarily like WID list or offchain agreement you have to do to take part of course like some of the core dynamics of

capitalism in some ways still exist and they are centralizing but you know I think less so than a a fully offchain onchain mix system right like a like a exchange that generally can can achieve a lot more than than a fully onchain system right by managing liquidity offchain by just controlling Partners more and stuff like that so I think that's sort of my my take here do you think in the future applications will continue to require stake in order to be secure that applications would be so far Abed away from the underlied security that maybe they just make way with it altogether yeah I mean it's it's a very deep question I think there's like obviously also advances in like ZK technology which kind of like makes

things provable on chain and maybe lowers the need for stake or secure but then again like you know who generates the proof they actually probably should be somewhat staked and um held accountable if they don't create the proofs and stuff like that so I think there's always like some angle but yeah also in the long long run I guess you know if you have all these operator entities like sort of identified on chain there's also like a reputation element there where you can kind of see how they've performed in other networks and probably use some of that as well in addition to the stake but I guess it will never fully go away because if if it's probably just a reputation then maybe yeah I guess someone could regulation I mean it could be also that they're regulated yeah yeah right that I

guess yeah it depends how how the system would shape how much it will actually impact core like human coordination mechanisms like nation states and stuff like that I guess I should know that's very hard to foresee right now yeah it's super interesting and looking forward to seeing the future of symbiotic as things continue to evolve thanks so much for coming on it's been great chatting and hopefully um we can do this again soon yeah thanks for having me S and yeah good to see you [Music] [Music]