Sui’s Plan to Onboard the Next Billion Consumers | Adeniyi Abiodun

Transcript

We Believe gaming will really um put um defi on a hockey stick from the large perspective we think defi is great from infrastructure perspective but what you want are real users leveraging it in a very transparent way right so we think that's going to drive the defi adoption onu further from what it's already driven already that's our big bet chaos Labs the leading onchain risk management firm recently launched its new flagship Oracle product Edge Edge delivers integrated High Precision risk and price data for any application with the market follow and reach out to chaos Labs on X to learn more what's up guys just want to tell you a little bit more about fuel labs and their new ethereum L2 fuel ignition so fuel Labs is launching fuel ignition a high performance e L2 powered by their fuel VM with the launch of

ignition the team is also launching phase two for their fuel points program to reward users and promote them make sure to check out fuel. Network to learn more nothing said on zerox Research is a recommendation to buy or sell Securities or tokens this podcast is for informational purposes only and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions not Financial advice Pacho Ryan and our guests May hold positions in the company's funds or projects discussed what's up guys welcome back to another episode of zerox research today I'm joined by Adin who is the co-founder and CPO at Mist La who are building SOI and walrus protocol thanks for joining good morning I'm glad to be here thank you for inviting me um usually

I'll ask people to introduce uh what they're building but I don't think we really really need to do that here uh so I'm just going to start off with what's like your personal vision for suie and what is the feces for move adoption yeah great thanks for inviting me so um I I've shared with the public that uh I remember when we first did our fundraising for miston we had this very embarrassing deck that had like a spaghetti ball um setup of like multiple protocols um I think it stems from the fact that when we're Facebook we were trying to build a layer for making money to send as easy as email and when we left miston we saw a distinct opportunity that ultimately look every

asset is going ultimately digital um there needs the internet is great for moving um data around but it's not really good at like streamlining um user engagement across a multitude of Platforms in an atomic way um so if you have a world of multiple assets how do you allow users coordinate their actions on these assets across a multitude of services and service providers in a way that's very frictionless so we we knew that was an opportunity and then we didn't know we we also thought one platform couldn't do it we believe that the internet ultimately needed an upgrade and the there upgrade comes and services that allows you to do that in a fully um permiss permissionless way um so we in in our diagram that we had drawn I don't know if anyone has seen it

was somehow leaked I don't know how we have multitude of protocols that solve different um types of problems and you start to see that with M and now um we started by building s which is a universal coordination layer for diesel assets um I don't like calling it layer one but you know here it's it's it's an L1 is what people call it but it's bigger than that it's solving a problem that's much more larger s itself doesn't have a maximum th that most blockchains designed to have today it it's able to scale horizontally which is how we took our learnings from building search at Google and building INF at Facebook how you build systems that are ultimately they increase capacity as you add more machines to them know the blockchain does that um it's got Primitives that allows you to build assets and

coordinate Assets in an atomic way using what we call programmable transaction block so I can streamline up to 1,24 Independent transactions together or coordinated transactions together and submit it with one um signature and it's done um and then the next layer we're building on top of that is warus warus is a fully decentralized um blob store that is going to power the next wave of websites it's going to power how AI um how you have you know data Integrity across um um um large language models and multi multitude of other use cases I believe we have um companies who are building um data buil layers leveraging Wars for that as well so we we believe

you're going to need a multitude of stacks and the next stack we're probably going to do after that is something related to networking so fundamentally our thesis is the internet is great for moving data it's not great for coordinating user activities around digital assets my storage is going to be a digal asset my concer tickets a digital asset things that I do is a digal asset and to coordinate my engagement across a multitude of services you need a platform or set of platforms to do that so that's our big bet and we believe it's the right bet to make that's perfect I um and I want to dive into sui first and then I want to talk a bit about walrus as well because I've been reading up on it I'm very excited to hear about it but um specifically with regard to sui so I

think one thing that's slightly unfair um is that you constantly have a competitor a very clear competitor um I don't think a lot of blockchains have to deal with that but what do you think your competitive Advantage is against other move based chains oh okay I I thought you gonna say soul um I really as well yeah so honestly um we think it's a good idea that multiple chains adop to move quite frankly we've made a statement that we think it's neon impossible to secure the evm it it's just not going to happen we tried at Facebook we looked at it and we ultimately resulted in building a brand new program language called move and you

have the likes of Aptos who build on move you haveu building on move I believe um iotas is GNA launch a move chain there's something on aax launching you have movement let's build more move the more move developers the better it is for web three period and we we emphatically believe that so we welcome that um are we just believe that the platform we built is far superior because everything was take was designed from the bottom up when we left M um Facebook we left behind the infrastructure and architecture that we had designed and built called Libra um one of our competitors built on that primitive we had granded Visions to build something that's beyond scale what we were doing at Facebook Libra was meant to be almost a permission Network to a large extent with a Consortium it

was not meant to deal with scale at the kind of levels that we need think the internet needs to go so we started from scratch so we built a fundamental platform that that basically has object oriented principles from day one it deals with congestion by Design um it's it's horizontally scalable by Design um and it's probably the most Delight delightful platform to build on some of the devs who have come from salana have said building onu is a 10x Improvement on building on salana for example so Dev experience is something we've been able to focus on on day one building on the previous version of move sort of like what you have the ioto and apors using is almost like writing an account based programming language right it's almost similar to eth and we do not think the mass majority of developers are going to

work with that Paradigm most things you build in the world aren't account based they're object based it's an object based system we think of objects this phone is an object my wallet is an object and if I'm transacting with my wallet I'm transacting on my phone they two different transactions you should be able to do that in parallel right so most blockchains do not do that um and I think we've designed it from a very basic principle of okay how do I allow people to build an application that can onboard millions of users we invented something called ZK login ZK login is a mechanism that lets you create a a web three account using your web 2 credentials in a fully per permissionless way so whoever your web two provider is if it's Google Facebook or caca whatever does not even know you're signing to a web three

application um separately from that we have something called sponsor transactions so sponsor transactions lets you transact without paying gas someone else can pay the gas on your behalf whether you watch an ad to pay for gas or um a wallet decides to cover it because you trade on their favorite decks great and then finally we have um um s um s name Services as well so every so you're on board with your Google account or you're on board with your Facebook account or whatever you want you get a username that is web three related so it's add any just at add like a you know at notation and I could send money to you like I send like email never have to worry about gas so we we believe in next platform needs to be able to onboard users at the scale that's never been afforded to them in

web 3 everybody most people web 3 are building as though we're building for very small subset of users we believe that s would onboard more users into web 3 than any other platform just because we've built for large scale um we built large scale infrastructure before that's had to tailor to billions of users and that experience is very very unique within miston so I I believe if if I had to compare the biggest comparison yeah we have a great stack um the most skillable blockchain the fastest um finality um the most you know the most descriptive language to build um smart contracts But ultimately I think our team really really sets us aside from every other team in the space people struggle to launch one platform but we're launching a multitud platform so we could do that really well I I think

you teased at um a lot of points here in relation to some competitors and kind of differentiating s in the stack here um I guess maybe to just re highlight some some high level things like what are maybe these the top kind of meaningful differences between like a salana and a for example and then like taking that further I think you you kind of started to get into this point as well but like where and how does does s differentiate itself and then you know capture market share away from you know a salana or even like you know the evm as it is dominant today as well so the first one is developer experience building onui is uh it's lightly as way ahead of building on soul in terms of just a Dev experience your afforded tools like Z

login afford tools like object composability you you you basically have congestion control dealt with intrinsically in the way the data platform is intrinsically in how the data model is designed so as a developer you don't have to really understand the fundamental platform you can just build and most of these things are taken care of for you you don't have to worry about sharding so from a salon if you have to compare to Soul latency onui is I think 8 to 12x fast lower than on Soul so if I trade onu finality is instant right it's less than a second solds about 8 seconds or more depending on the Network congestion and swe up to 100,000 transactions per second you're still a second end to end finality not

optimistic no Forks it's simple end to end finality separately um I believe the ability to scale infinitely right like we hate quoting TPS or Max TPS because that's a red flag Google does not say I can only handle 50 apps and after that good luck the th go up right um so s allows you to add more validator so as validator to add more more infrastructure so as a network starts to top out at 297,000 transactions per second we're not going to get anywhere anytime soon they can add a second worker or third worker and we've been able to represent um that if you 7x the amount of hardware for the network you get seven exit performance and zero

increas in latency and this has been formally proven so s is also formally proven in its algorithms and and and the architecture salana is not so these are the things if you're going to build infrastructure that's going to carry the world's money you need to have formal proofs that this thing actually works right like it's not you know trust me bro or hand waving you have to actually be sure that what you're building on is going to stand a test of time so our team has a I can't remember the full number it's a myriad of um top academics in the space who are also practical um in the space that are able to apply the theory into practice and also the engineering that can build it at a high Fidel Fidelity and and speed and it's shown so thank if I had to summarize few

things um I think for sure um the the capacity foru is is um elastic it can scale horizontally which salana is not the throughput and latency also is something that scales right like latency never increases but you can always scale the throughput and finally um I believe just the ability to have something you know it's formally proven that works um is is is a very high value we actually have a ridiculous out of interest foru from from um um from the institutionalsales and it's starting to prove itself out we believe there'll be a lot more news in

that regard very soon perfect I um so you mentioned that the evm is impossible to scale um but I want to ask kind of a tangential question to that why what are some takeaways that you guys have had from the evm and the way that it's built um because ethereum is very clearly focused on something completely different from what is s focused on like at the end of the day you're both decentralized but it's a different level of it's a different way of decentralization I think is a good way to put it um that's one question and the second question is there's a lot of liquidity on ethereum and on the evm and there's also you said like there's a current small subset but that subset is

very used to metamask and rabby and all of those tools um how how are you guys going to work towards I guess like increasing adoption and S stealing some market share away from evm and you mentioned ZK login but I want to also talk a bit about that later but just apart from ZK login how long do you think this is going to take for you guys to take away this market share Spirit Tech good question first thing is on numbers there are only 25,000 active Deads in web 3 that's pitiful that's less devs and Facebook has period so we're so early that some VCS used to ask us the question what is your eth compatibility story I I I feel like puking every time I heard that question because it makes no sense right like

what 25,000 Deads who cares right um it's so early there are over 9 million JavaScript Deads we're going after those developers we think that's the market to go after not the small Market of evm devs we just think evm is such a um tangential um um walk away from what traditional developers like to write code in and it's not purpose-driven for a world where you want to deal with multitude of assets it's and and by the way I'm I'm actually I was actually a very big fan of eth I had a chance to invest early on I don't know why I forgot I I missed that opportunity I was still bought got into it but I missed out very very early very very late at the same time but I I believe it was built for a different time and now things are way more complicated we want

to deal with a lot more users eth was never meant to do that and I believe you know nowu is actually one of the top destinations for E liquidity which is something you brought up um more assets get bridged onto s and soul than any other chain in fact most times it's actually more assets been breed into s than any other chain in the market so I don't think we're having a problem with um attracting e liquidity in absense you also touched on the experience they're actually metam snaps right there are some e um users who are using a metam mass snap for S and they're using that without much of an issue um but I believe are are we win when we when we increase the size of the pie by going after broader sense of users and broader

sense of of devs than just what's in the evm space but absolutely welcome every ecosystem we we believe like ultimately our our goal is to broaden the high if we take market share from other chains great but really that's not the number one priority we want to welcome a lot more devs that have never been in the space we think that's where the opportunity is you talk about adoption as well our goal from day one we've always believed that gaming has a biggest opportunity to on board more users into web3 than anything else B ban last last year alone over three billion um um Gamers spent over $200 million on games that's more than movies it's more than music it's a big enough space to go after those users and we're working with

some of the top studios in the world these games have 10 20 30 million users more users than web 3 as a whole if we can onboard those game um um Gamers onto site using things like ZK log and sponsor transactions where it's all hidden away but guess what they can trade they can buy and sell assets they can get residual value from their assets or engage with their games in new ways we think that's a w that's a big W for the space as a whole so I think going up up in front and center to people that install a wallet download this it's just a non-starter you don't win the market share by that by getting users to do things they're not accustomed to doing that makes sense I um how has the adoption for ZK loging I I find ZK loging very cool I I think it was like a

great initiative by you guys how how well has that adoption gone and are there some things that you would have done differently from the very beginning um that now you realize so for history zik Logan was our attempt to get something called um youal payments going which is how do I send money to someone and they can receive it or redeem it without having to onboard that is a big problem in finance and we tried to solve that at Facebook we couldn't make enough progress through this very hard problem while at face while at miston we've been able to resolve it and we're very very proud that ZK login works and it's fully vetted and it's it's it's actually a novel um um protocol it's gone really really well interestingly what has shocked me about

ZK Logan is you know that people actually store a lot of money using it our thought process was okay let's build it to onboard you know the masses the dgn are never going to use this thing right fine they're always going to use metamask going to use a hardware wallet they're going to use something that's paraphrase related but we're finding people holding large balances in ZK login that's because their view is ultimately my Google account it's safe it's multi- it's safer than most of the things that I use and it gives me portability I can go from one wallet to the other and I have the same balance ultimately so we're finding the adoption to be going really really well of course I think the biggest adoption is going to come from traditional game studios and most Gamers game studios are building on to using ZK login they're not asking you

to download a wallet they're not asking you to go and buy gas they just log your Google account as normal and you have an account or log in with an in-game account and it generat a ZK login account for you and it's fully um um self stal as well so that's a Nuance about it you're not using some middleware to create an account for your users the users own their own account and they have their own agency to interact with the chain so that's what's really excited us and there are some surprises there right we never thought you know DJs would actually use it for day-to-day use in the chain chaos Labs the leading onchain risk management firm recently launched its new flagship Oracle product Edge Edge delivers integrated High Precision risk and price data for any application with the market after 2 months of securing Jupiter Edge

has already secured 30 billion in volume and more than 60% of all Salon of her's volume Edge is comprised of three components High Precision price data with an integrated risk engine automated delivery of real-time parameter adjustments on chain and secure delivery of custom data points via zero knowledge proofs follow and reach out to chaos Labs on X to learn more thanks again to chaos labs for sponsoring today's episode what's up guys fuel ignition is finally here fuel ignition is a high performance L2 solution that aims to solve both state sustainability and performance execution as an eoll up ignition is built up the fuel VM and a utxo based asset Centric architecture with e security make sure to check out the growing fuel ecosystem by participating in phase two of the fuel points program today visit fuel. Network

to learn more um you me mentioned gaming again you're excited about gaming um you guys are kind of partnering on a on a gaming device um this the sweet Play device I guess I'm curious here why the focus on the hardware and and what's sort of the vision with this with this device does do you think it leads to like greater adoption of you know gaming onui um kind of take us down that that path so very good question um it's important to note that our bet is not just on a device our bet is on gaming period and right now if you want to play a game you have a choice to make especially if you're in the PC World right do I go with steam do I go with epic how do I take this portable this device with me today you're very you

have a myriad of choices that aren't really great so what we wanted to do is partner with um platron platron is actually found um some of the the engineers actually work on Android very very early so highly highly respectable respect their team um they worked on S gen mod if you guys ever ever played around with that back in the days you might be too young but this is a mod you can install on your device directly rather than running the base OS I I use that as as a gamer back back in the days I actually used to mod my phones all the time but that's beside the point um what does platron let you do platron is a gaming operating system and this gaming operating system can be installed on your phone it can be installed on a handheld device it can be installed on

your set toop box it can be installed on your TV it can go in a multitude of factors and What it lets you do is to play steam epic um also um games from um the creators of Final Fantasy as well um they're they're going to be that's also going to be compatible in addition to playing web 3 app store games as well so you don't have to choose you don't have to say I want to play a web two game or web three game it doesn't matter games are games and from our perspective we want to usher in an era of ownership for games as a whole so with this platron operating system site is intrinsically embedded into the operating system so you earn rewards if you play a steam web 2 game or an epic

web 2 game or you play a web 3 game it doesn't matter and ownership is just by using ZK login ultimately we think that's a naturalistic way to onboard millions and millions of users into web 3 without having to think about chains or anything the like so our our our aspirations is broader than just a device it's anywhere you can dob the um operating system with your Windows machine it would run and operate games a lot better than your window Windows machine would so wherever you're playing games we're betting on the operating system that um gamers are going to want a better experience and they don't have to make choices on which app store that they use they choose to use interestingly the platron OS has its own app store that doesn't have all the restrictions that traditional app stores have as well so web 3 games are running

in floods to try and build on plr on us because now they don't have to play the high fees that cost pay the high fees that that they're charged right now for developing and porting games over um on other platforms as a whole so we're very bullish on that we think that's a way to go um and the play so if you imagine Google and its relationship with Android Android is a operating system it can be installed in any device and we think many people build a multitude of plon or three Play devices and that's what we want but Apple um and um Google also has the pixel device which is a premier device to make sure that the bars kept sufficiently high for developers so we are shipping a device that is of high high high quality and of relatively low cost um that allows people to have a

device that they can go to as a reference to always play games at High Fidelity so that's what we are doing with a sweet Play device and that's going to launch um in the in 2025 early part of 2025 the device is already finished actually the hardware is already finished the O integration is ongoing right now and uh yeah it's going really well very thorough um I guess maybe digging at that a little bit more how has the reception of the device been so far I guess if you can speak to like what what pre-orders look like if that's been promising and then you know you you talked about you know types of games games wanting to build on onu or on the the OS device um all chains sort of want to get into this or at least a lot of the high performance chains there's a

lot of focus on gaming as well so it what what's that specific lane or Avenue um maybe it's it's maybe it's mostly the tech maybe it's other pieces of that um to incentivize games in in web 3 developers and maybe even Web Two developers as well um to want to build games on S and on the device as well interestingly it's not hard to convince game devs to build on the platron device one they're not going to pay the fees that come with a traditional App Store and some of these games aren't exclusive to particular app store either so you can you can your the the net net positive is the funds you saved you can put that more into game development you can put that more into rewards have more interesting playback um feedback loops for your games so we think it's a net

net win for game devs so we have a lot of um developers already porting games to this replay device and we'll be announcing more in the next coming um set of months as well pre-orders are going really well about close to 3,000 devices ordered we actually have a ton of interest of people who want to do um selling to retail at a mass scale we wanted to focus on our early adopters first before going to mass scale we also have um conversations with um um carriers who want to find a way to carry this device and offer it as part of a plan um for purchases of data so our aspirations are really really big it's not just hey a bunch of D buying a game device it's let's get this into the hands of everybody possible so there's a lot of work to be done um but early

signs are very positive we're talking to some of the largest uh companies in the world in regards to this device fantastic I um I'm H we kind of took the conversation to this direction but I want to fully focus a bit on um building on sui and specifically how important do you think going forward for sui it's going to be to focus more on BD and ecosystem growth through either incentive programs or through maybe small incubation programs um for you to get more apps and more builders on sui apart from the move language um do you guys have anything planned so sui from a developer standpoint I believe move as a whole is about 7% of the active devs in web 3 so

from zero to 7% like people should take notice that's pretty serious um whether it's by us or because some Partners I meanu is a by far the largest move ecosystem but the more people building a move I think the more beneficial it is for miston um for S as a whole ultimately um so adoption is looking really good we've only been live for like 17 18 months so give us a chance we're still new but we're we're like number six on um on like um daily volume and eight on TBL like all the metrics are looking really really good for S so very very proud about that but what we want is to broaden the the devs Beyond um what we have today um from going Beyond just the web three devs as a

whole so in terms of growing the ecosystem we've announced Partnerships with likes of um Circle usdc so usdc is now native onu at the end of this month you heard some of the top World exchanges launching um the ability to um deposit and withdraw funds in usdc for s specifically so we're very very happy about that um stable coins are one of the best use cases for blockchains and we think that being having a uh you know a native stable coin VI Agora USD now Circle USD and FD USD that expands the um surface are of what users have in terms of Choice by means of stable coins games is one of our biggest bet biggest bets so um society which is a you know AAA game um it's coming live early next

year it's going to be launched on spe play X1 as well by the way um Dark Times um e4c f of Salvation these are people who built Riot games right like so these are top tier game studios building onui um so our thesis is going to keep going along those lines We Believe gaming will really um put um defi on a hockey stick from the Liv perspective we think defi is great from infrastructure perspective but what you want are real users leveraging it in a very transparent way right so we think that's going to drive the defi adoption we further from what it's already driven already that's our big bet um Finance as well and rwa those are the areas that we're really indexing on so we have a number of rwa platforms are soon to be

launching on TW we'll be announcing those soon but we think that's rwa for me I still think it's like a two to three year bet as it grows because ultimately what matters is liquidity and to talk to CH on liquidity this is why we built deep book dbook was a partnership between miston and a number of EC consistant Partners to have a fully onchain order book for once that works right so if you want to trade in size you want to trade very very fast you want to trade as a professional Trader um clms aren't as efficient for doing that they're great for longtail assets but if you want to trade High liquid assets tier one assets like Soul s Facebook Google whatever you cannot do that on a c amm so having a um Central limit order book a a crank centr order

book is the way to go so swe has a fully permissionless um sent to them an order book called Deep book that um recently tged a couple of days ago and that is going to be the backbone of liquidity foru um every CLM is plugged into it so they can tap into additional liquidity when they don't have liquidity so anybody can build on top of dbook so if you want to imagine a world where you're tapping your credit card to make payments or your debit card to make payments or you need to do large FX swaps you're going to need uh Central AUD book to do that at the kind of scale so s is already already has that from day one took a lot of inspiration from a team at um that built serum and they're actually very helpful with some of the ideas on how we can improve on the

design so it's highly performant with very very low fees I think we show that to trade on deep book to buy $5,000 worth of usdc or to swap usct to usct way cheaper on dbook than it would be on centralized exchange perfect I I want to talk a bit about dbook later but I first want to touch up on something you said so you said you want to go for payments which I think is very good as like I I agree but often we get people on the podcast who think that payments are kind of a low value transaction compared to some of the bigger um defi transactions that you might need does do first of all do you agree with that um second of all make any sense look reality is what you're going for is consumers right like

what is a goal you want to make things easy for consumers and if you have a platform that um onboard consumers easily allows them to do their day-to-day basic things then you can then expand onto doing more interesting things for them you cannot go for just the big tickets and then not deal with the lower tickets so this is why for us like the number of things matter you can't have a maximum throughput and latency needs to be FAS in the website load and when you have that broaden the surface area or use cases that you can deal with so when you have a very low bandwidth chain with high fees then of course you can only deal with high value transactions right and things that really um resemble just pure gambling but when you have a very lowc cost chain that doesn't have a restriction on

throughput and um effectively allows you to trade at you know as fast as you absolutely can then you can do microtransactions then you can do payments then you can do all these things that people say are very low value but are essential for any economy so I I disagree like you want to have payments you want to deal with the lowest like the very very um you know broad set of use cases so you can onboard um um consumers into the broader sense of use cases for example it it's so cheap onui today and it's so fast to transact onui that if I allow you to send 50 cents or five cents then maybe you might trustu to do your concert tickets now I can swap concert tickets with my friend I can do a Marketplace or trading concert tickets as a result but

if my fees are $3 or maybe $3 and when it's very congested it's now $10 well I'm never going to do anything like that so I think the majority of chains have that congestion issue if you take a look and so for example More than 70% of the fees are are basically priority fees which means there is intrinsic congestion you are paying more because there's the chain is full so you're paying more to get your transaction ahead SW does not have that so if you're going to deal with uh you know the world transactions you need to be able to intrinsically handle congestion in a very um in a very streamlined way so s has mulle mechanism that does that

better than other chains so hopefully I answered your question I believe payment is huge pay it away in in our world the when we were trying to build a Facebook we wanted to make payments as easy as sending an email now withu and ZK login just tell me your email address and I can email money to you and you can receive it without ever having to onboard and offboard anywhere else awesome that makes a ton of sense um I guess looking back you know from from Facebook and then to M Labs s you've launched we what 16 18 months out now um since since the main net what are some are there any key things that you think you guys really nailed and got right and then on the flip side you know are there any things you think you know you maybe

missed on or got wrong um and going forward like on on those things that you got wrong like you know what's the fix or what are you gonna focus on next to kind of improve going forward yeah the two things there two things we got right and wrong and I think they're probably the same thing the first thing we we did or didn't do is we didn't do an air drop um foru and we got lambasted for that in a big big way right we were very very clear from day one we're not going to do an air drop we don't think it makes sense for our project we are going to build a real Community it will take more time and it ended up pay um playing out the way we expected right so we announced at Network we went live we did tge we allow people people were able to

purchase a token for you know really low price um but what we ended up doing is onboarding real Believers in our ecosystem and air drop Hunters went elsewhere and played out elsewhere right so I think our community you look at the S Community now it's very loud it's very strong it's very determined very focused on the technology understands what we're trying to do um that's our goal and I think if you do an air drop for your layer one then ultimately what you do is you encourage the lowest common denominator of users people always say it's marketing but realistically no it's not right you really introduce the lowest common denominator to your network that don't care about your network and it'll go elsewhere um if you Benchmark site against um other um projects that launch in the same time

frame or you know plus or minus six months sw's done way better than every single one of them on every single measurable metric so I think that was a thing we did right not doing an a drop the thing we did wrong though is we missed out on a community aspect that does come with that right so I believe we're a bit slower to onboard Community as a result um um we our our thesis was like look we're going to build the best platform to build the best possible Tech and on board the best users onto the platform but given the notion given the nature of Open Source software and then the the Notions of tokens is an element of ensuring that you can keep the community AB breath of your developments and we're unable to probably articulate some of our best learning points early

on because we're very very we're very very you know they wanted high level descriptions we're going to low level right and uh I think now we're started to bridge the gap via community members ambassadors and everything else related so I think we did a great job of not doing air drop but we might have missed the boat in terms of like trying to you know um bring the community along with our developments and I think we've caught up there and we' love to see us make even more progress there that's a great call out um aird drops definitely highly contentious within the space both both on the good side and the bad side um you mentioned you know Community being a big like that was a big kind of focal point here I guess given the points you made like going forward you know how are you guys going

to kind of further build out that Community um and then two like what's the you know what are some ways or are there any specific ways you're thinking about leveraging that Community to kind of you know keep keep your success on track and you know build into the future so s succeeds when it becomes um you know a utility not a commodity it succeeds when that happens right and what I mean by that is the apps need to win you need applications that drive users to use S on a daily basis in a very transparent way so it should be less about s success like I don't say this internet is great because I'm on AT&T fiber I just say I'm using internet it works right and S needs to be that layer like which is why we say our goal

is a universal coordination layer for the internet that the applications built on top ofu are leveraging the benefits ofu on a day-to-day basis andu is used to fund the transactions as a result and that's where s ultimately succeeds and Community is going to take a multitude of forms there's going to be the Crypt native community that exists today and that's going to keep growing um but that's going to reach a peak right like crypto the Crypton natives could only grow so much because it's a different Paradigm for how communities built and a lot of other mechanisms like Facebook or Google um or you know Tik Tok whatever but I do believe what we want to do is help our applications build their own intrinsic communities right like if you're building a you know uh defi app there's a different form of community

you need from if you're building you know movie paths for example who's partnering to change how movies are funded and ultimately you know um users engage with with films and Shop movies moving forward or if you're engaged with like Team Liquid who is really caring more about onboarding their community and keeping them around for a lot longer and growing the influence of our communities as a whole so it's going to take a different form and I think the next set of social media will be built on top of crypto on top of blockchains because how you engage your community how you reward your community how you take them along and how you keep them loyal is going to fundamentally shift so I I believe sw's Community is strong it's keep it keeps growing I think it's going to keep growing But ultimately the way in which we succeed is moveu from

being what it is today to actually being a daily utility the way you use on a day-to-day basis it's under the hood you have no clue you're using it but it drives a lot of economic uh value for the world ultimately that makes a lot of sense I you know I think we're we're getting into mentioning you know apps and and utilities here again so I guess you know going back to you mentioned ebook earlier um how much or I guess there's maybe different ways to think about this but um given apps and developers sort of building onui or within the ecosystem um how much help and support do you know as a team do you guys provide to apps obviously there's maybe some projects where you're more involved and others where you're not um and you know how impactful do you think that has been you know helping out with

maybe deep book for example yeah so our our our goal over the time is that M becomes less influential withu but helps in technology Direction but the ecosystem starts to formulate itself and organize itself and I think salana has done a phenomenal job in that right they've done they've got a great model on how you do that and we could take a lot of learning from them and how they succeeded there um but today we we do actually help projects right whether it's an form of community grants whether it's in a form of of of um partnering with them with the rest of ecosystem projects um whether it's form of co- marketing um investment you name it any any number of what's required and teams are in different stages of development

so the kind of help teams need is going to be very different one of the things we also have in house is a Solutions engineering team at miston and they help new partners to web 3 on board really really quickly whether we build a demo for them help them understand um you know build apis to ease integration just as common things you expect to help people on board really really really rapidly um we're building a ton of AI tools as well to help devs build on move very very quickly um one of the tools called bugar bugar is going to help reduce the cost of auditing so as you write in code you can do your PR request and it will give you an idea of typical bugs that are in the code you've written and give you suggestions how you can fix it so reducing the barrier to

entry for Dev tools is going to be um another area in which we invest as well but ultimately you know we give a number of different things to help the ecosystem and that would change over time and our hope is as ecosystem matures I mean it's only 18 months into it it starts to really self-organize and be more and more decentralized in in the way in which it coordinates gotcha makes total sense um I guess and let's going back to another thing that I think you know we mentioned earlier on um talked about walrus and and da a little a little bit at the beginning um this was a somewhat more of a recent launch I guess what is the reasoning um or the you know the use Case utility behind warus and what does

it enable foru apps building onu and you know I guess down the road like users in the utility there so the first thing is what warus isn't warus isn't a middle finger to Google Amazon and all the services that are around I believe there's value in having certain centralized services that exist today and they'll always be there um the problem comes when you want to coordinate user actions against Assets in a very permission per permissionless way I don't believe centralized entities can ever compete with what we're building in regards to warus in that regard so you now you have a platform now that is fully decentralized um it's going to be very low cost storage and allows you to organize users around data

using programmable mechanisms like smart contracts so if you want to build and if you want to share data if you want to build economics around data you cannot do that on a centralized service or can you do that in a way that's really open and uh permissionless so warus is our answer to that it is a decentralized blob storage that allows you to store pedabytes if not exabytes of data you as a developer in the web freespace can host your entire front end on warus and run it directly from warus and then you have a domain name system called SNS that you'd use to um resolve the location of your website so now you're not going to be sutible to DNS attacks that happen in traditional web in web 2 so you can have a website that the

wallet knows it's interacting directly with an application that's safe and secure so the amount of security you get is a lot higher if you're in government or if you're running an application that requires a high amount of um um of certainty around what you're engaging with Wars is a way to go so to hack a war website is different from hacking uh you know a website hosted on Google Amazon right those companies or let's say using a tier one a tier two or tier three provider you can hack some server and get access to data and change things with warus you have hundreds if not thousands of Nos and to hack it you need to be able to hack the key the private key we know how to secure private Keys better than we know how to secure multitude of servers right um that could

be run by any centralized body so we think the attack vectors on Wars are thinner than the attack vectors and you have on centralized service providers so I believe the amount of use cases for warus will broaden in regards to that if you care about um uh care care about data Integrity if you want to for example we partner with with a with a particular number of media organizations and decrypt being one of the top ones who are going to move the entire website onto warus the resolution will be on warus the rendering will be on warus every image that post every article that post can be signed using ZK login so you know that John at blockworks wrote an article and you know that the image posted was done on a particular dat it can't be changed so if you want to now run um analytic you want to run AI on

top of that you've got a very strong source of data that's very that has high integrity to work off so I think that starts to matter in a in a large scheme of things and these are things that are very very hard to do with centralized service providers second um another thing is let's say I need to provide storage for data for some fixed amount of time I'm under contractual obligation to provide availability of data for some fixed period of time you could do that on warus whereas you have to do audits with centralized service providers you don't need an it you you get a hash and you get a proof that this data will be available for two three four five 10 years who knows right so these are things that are very hard to do with centralized services but they'll be afforded to you by warus and I think

warus is going to be the cheapest place to do this it's going to be the most compulsive way to do this you can now build you know let's say you build your deck and you have your front end of your decks running on warus you can write a small contract that every trading fee goes to pay the storage fee for your store um for for your website and you never have to pay service fees again for running uh at de so there are multitude of things that you can coordinate automatically using warus that you just can't do like smart contracts don't sign deals with AWS right it's not possible but they can do one with a decentralized autonomous storage Network perfect I um just like preventing some uh front end hacks would be perfect like just off that base level so I'm excited to see

how how W how's the adoption been so far apart from decrypt and some other media sites so interestingly we we're at at E Event right now um and more than 80% of the projects decided to hack on warus so it has influence beyond your s which is our goal right it's the E guys are loving warus also has a lot of value the um um guys who are building rollups love warus because they can use it as an availability layer um anybody building a website that wants to do anything regarding AI they interest about war so the adoption is really really good we're very happy about it um this is just testnet we haven't even started the next phase of testnet which would be more exciting yet but the it's looking really good we had a hackathon as well that had

over 60 submissions um very high value submissions if you go to wars. XYZ there's a link that shows you all the submissions and the video walks through people are building stuff that we never thought would be possible but that's cool that's a whole point right it's a platform perfect I um ad I want to take a step away from M labs in Su and wus and I want to ask you about your opinions about some of the things we're seeing in uh crypto right now um do you think rollups were a good way to scale ethereum is my first one so the my my first statement there is I believe the only Network that needs rollups or layer twos is e right because if you

didn't get it right first time you sure dang way you should be getting it right the second or third time now right um so I don't think anyone has an excuse they should build a layer one that scales so I do think you need alternative mechanis to scale e because e is not going to scale anytime soon and you have to provide the solution to the to that ecosystem because they want to be on E and I I believe whether I'm not opinionated on whether it's a rollup or you know some other mechanism but I do think you know anything other than just using Bas e is better than using E From perspective um but I do question some of the centralized Natures of what we're seeing um we think they're making a lot of security um compromises that we wouldn't make we just wouldn't make um

but again each to their own that makes sense um my second thing is you mentioned congestion fees on Solana being priority fees costing 70% because there's a lot of congestion on Solana how do you see do you see this being an issue in the future maybe as things ramp up um do you how sui did it differently how would you have done it differently as well like for Solana apart from ignore Solana go to uh sui what what would be some changes that you would have made so first thing is salana actually did a better job than most people in ecosystem for congestion right um I actually think the congestion mechanism for soul is probably going to be better than what Aptos has for example right um looking at the way

they've done it but beyond that um they did the best that they could with the architecture they had at the time we are lucky in the sense that we are not first so we're able to take a lot of learnings what people had built and our background is in programing languages it's in in data pipelines it's in in Big Data it's in building um search it's in building large scale infrastructure we know how to do that so our background is from the space where we deal with large scales of data all the time and dealing with congestion is something that you have to deal with with large scale systems it's not unique to web 3 and our view is the pipelining that people have have built for how you ingest data process validate execute we think that pipeline is

entirely wrong s takes a much more different approach to how we pipeline um that whole process for executing transactions on a blockchain and that allows us to have you know um the merization of State well in fact sorry the the um the the verification of state is ultimately not in the it's something that can be done in parallel whereas other chains have a more sequential mechanism to doing that in fact you know the block Productions thing is is what we think is actually going to slow most people down the fact that you have to agree a block and then propos once you agree on a block then you make it people always talking about hey we have 500 milliseconds block production or what who cares that doesn't mean anything

that just means you can create a block fast it doesn't mean you get finality fast right um whereas for us block production or what we call checkpointing is done after the fact we can agree a lot faster but checkpointing is an auditing thing that's done after the fact so it's not on a critical path which means we have no limit to how we can scale um our Network ultimately so that is a design decision we took differently we think it's very very hard to go back and design your system to do that it is a Monumental engineering effort to redesign your protocol to go and do what we've done but we welcome people to do that like Fork s and do something different right so um but I think the design decisions I've been taking from other platforms um I've I've

on unfortunately Peg them into a particular corner for how you scale which is why they'll try to do parel execution in an optimistic way on a single machine while the world doesn't work on single machines the world has always worked on the ability to add more machines with scale so so what if you buy the most expensive CPU you just reduce the surface area of users that can process your network right but for us you can have 10 15 cheap machines and start to scale that's the way in which we've gone about it rather than um assuming everybody just going to buy the single machine so I think that design decision is a way to go and it's going to allow us to power the internet of ownership for the internet not what everyone else has built

today I think that makes sense it's a really good answer and um it reminded me of something that I think another analyst on the team would be upset if I didn't ask about so I've been hearing a lot about dag baced consensus um do you want to kind of run over what that is and what it enables you guys to do um better than other people if I try to explain it I'll butcher it because I don't have Evan or George on the call they are way better actually in this stuff than I am okay I can I can I can I'll give you a high level at least the highest level possible right um interestingly foru what we're having now is universities um or America you call it colleges I think you can call universities as well in America um they're starting to teach our dag based

approach to consensus because misset for them is the first consensus algorithm that they can explain in a very simple way to their to their students and they get it it is way easier to understand and Gro than the previous mechanism for consensus so rather that it uses a directional e graph as a means of agreeing on what you're going to commit to for each round that is very different from what exists before and the unique thing about um Mr seti unlike other consensus protocols they're normally leader based consensus protocols so there's a leader that you elect so you know who you're going to Dos any given time right um so it's easy to shut down any of these um leader based systems just know who the leader is going to be

and you can de off them it happens it can happen quite frequently whereas um with the dag BAS system that we've developed you can have a multitude of leaders right at any given time so it's impossible to shut down the network and in fact it's more it's stronger against any kind of um Network Forks or network attacks than other protocols that exist today so it's a much more robust mechanism it's easier to understand it's easier to formally prove that it works as a result and we have a number of upgrades coming to Missi in coming in coming months to make it even more um faster than what we've done at mainnet but I can't explain the details of how it works as good as George or Sam or Costas can so I'll probably pass on that for now in the effort not to give people

wrong information yep no that's great I think the high level is helpful here just to just to give people the flavor um I guess I guess just to wrap things up you we've covered a lot of stuff here um and you you're able to you know I think you speak pretty quick so we're able to shove in quite a bit of info which was great um I guess for you guys for M foru for walrus whatever it may be um what's coming up next for you guys what are the big focuses whether it is technical strategy you know specific products Etc like you know what do you wanna what do you want to showcase number of things number one we believe swe would be the best place to trade period across all web three

ecosystems so there's going to be a lot of work announcements coming up soon in regards to deep book um that's going to scale out significantly in terms of volume and uh and trade participation and we're very excited about that we' we've partnered with axar for example who are going to be running squid off warus sorry off um deep book where you can actually do cross chain swaps directly and settled on warus so we believe if you want to buy soul e BTC whatever you'll be able to do that directly on warus no matter what chain that you're on I keep saying warus you to do that directly on deep um no matter what chain that you're on and that's what we're very excited about we want Traders in web3 to have the best venue possible to trade um secondly We Believe user adoption is key so we're very

focused on onboarding the next set of games are going to go live onu and showcasing the benefits of having ownership intrinsic to um the gaml um we think we're going to see a lot of growth um next year in terms of the user base ofu and we believe it's going to be actually the most diverse user base that you have in web 3 as all net new users into web 3 not just dgns but are using all the dgn stuff that they care about swaps nfts you name it um the other thing is focused on um warus mainnet right now um we announced the test net for warus yesterday it's G actually really really well we're seeing lot of adoption lot of excitement next will be an incentivized test net and after that then we'll ship this this baby off to

main net so very excited about growing the storage space but I think the amount of use cases that we're seeing the amount of inbow we're seeing for warus is something that we're not even staff to handle so we're trying to figure out how to grow our team to make sure that we can adequately deal with people's inquiries and and get them set up for Success very very quickly so very excited about um growing um the adoption of deep book and every major protocol Inu um D5 protocol andu is already integrated into dbook it's not competing with project it's actually uplifting the entire ecosystem secondly we are excited about growing the user base from gaming we think that's going to be a massive um uh um growth Vector foru next year and um we're very excited about getting

warus all the way to mainnet and that's going to be the central to company's Focus over the next uh three to six months fantastic yeah lots of big plans um I'm excited for you guys we're excited too I think it's um we we're we're we're elated at the adoption of SW is looking as good as it is we're we're later at devs are finding value we over index on devs for the right reason reasons and and now we're focusing on building the best community in the space as well so we've got a lot of great people who have built ahead of us in that space and we'll take a lot of learning from them and uh keep building fantastic thanks for coming on on you it's a pleasure thank you so much it was great having you [Music]