Steven Goldfeder on Arbitrum’s Lore, Orbit Appchain Thesis, and DeFi Renaissance

Transcript

arum is the home of defi how can you make sure that all of these Network effects are synergistic with one another ethos that we've had has always bend to developers don't ask developers to bend to you why should people choose to build on arbitrum orbit specifically welcome back to the rollup your home for technical talks and open conversations that shape the modular future nothing on today's show is to be construed as Financial advice you can see our full disclosures list at the roll up.com co/ Ventures sit back relax and enjoy today's episode after a quick word from some of our awesome Partners Redstone modular oracles are available on 50 plus chains trusted by over 100 clients and over 6 billion in

total value secured visit redstone. Finance to find out more well guys welcome to Thailand we are in Bangkok at ARB verse thanks Stephen for hosting this great event great event uh yeah great to be here thanks for coming yeah and I mean the arbitrum the arbitrum ecosystem what like a couple years ago started with an airdrop and is now a massive massive research airdrop rollup deployment and is now a massive massive Community um how are you feeling about The Vibes that Devcon and ethereum and just broader yeah so the arbit EOS system started you know years before the air drop right uh 20 you can no no like you can you can go back on YouTube and find the very first mention of arbitrum from a fall 2014 Princeton semester and

that wasn't the beginning Ed you know came up with the idea a year a year prior at a uh Princeton Bitcoin workshop and the reason I like to mention that video is ethereum went live July of 2015 so you know Ed was really thinking about scaling smart contracts but before there were smart contracts it was very academic uh Ed went off to the White House for two years and then um in 2017 when he came back Ed was a deputy CTO of the US and Senior adviser to President Obama and 2017 when he came back Harry and I said hey let's like actually build that arbitr thing cuz at that point there wasn't ethereum there were smart contracts we were starting to actually start see the pain points scaling we thought like things like crypto kitties if uh you remember that era and um that's when you know we really really

started building and definitely to see an event like this today at ARB versus it's like crazy to see I remember like our first conferences we were so proud of ourselves that we managed to get a branded tablecloth so uh we've come a long way uh as a community as an ecosystem as a technology stack and uh fantastic to see uh not only the cool venue but all the many many people here that are part of the arbitrum ecosystem one of the things that Stephen I like about you is that I I think you're a great Storyteller and so kind of to trace like where arbitrum came from like this 2014 Princeton paper and and to see what it's exploded into now I mean it it's evolved quite a bit from that academic uh point of view

into like and then you pick up from there like how how would you say that things have evolved since that academic point of view and and and you know take take us up until now yes so remarkably I'd say some of the like most basic and fundamental core ideas actually like date back to that paper um know the fraud proof mechanism the interactive fraud proofs that arbitrum is you know invented and now become the way to do an optimistic rooll up that was at one point contentious but today everyone agrees that arbitrum way like that actually goes back to the initial initial designs and is in the Arbitron paper um some of the like a lot of learning is actually building something in production so uh there are definitely a lot of things in the paper that

weren't quite ready um in particular um you know in the paper when you're writing a paper you don't need to like actually make it like work for the end user with the Integrations you just say okay we have this theorized L1 and you build this L2 on top of it that can launch Smart contracts but when we're actually building for users and developers we have to think about okay what do users and developers want and that's actually one of the differentiators of arbitrum that was true back when we were launching uh in 2021 and true today is we constantly say which we didn't do in the academic paper you know not how do we make a system that works and has these properties but how do we make one that has an additional property that developers want to use it and the uh ethos that we've

had is always bend to developers don't ask developers to bend to you and that actually manifested itself in 2021 so now you think evm rollups like yeah everyone's building an evm rollup up like that's uh that's just you know the thing to do you rewind a few years that was a highly controversial point there was exactly one team and one rollup that was building for the evm and that was arbitrum other people were doing uh their own languages um some were only for payments or transfers of a particular type of asset uh some were like had solidity but you know had their own compiler and it was like kind of similar to to evm but had significant differences there was one that said no no no and the reason I think why arbitrum got the adoption that it got

initially and contined to today is because of that ethos to bend to developers and people saw hey I could just take my code from ethereum or any other evm chain and I can just deploy this at arbitrum that's amazing that's you that works and now today with arbit from stylist we've actually taken that a step further where we've said all right we've got the evm folks covered but what about zoom out the rest of the world because I don't know about you but I'm in like this like super uh Twitter bubble where I think you know solidity developers are the entire world but um my team tells me that there's millions of other developers out there apparently that I don't the algorithm doesn't show me um that actually write in other languages and you know in all seriousness there are about a few tens

of thousands maybe 30,000 solidity developers out there estimated to be 3 million rust developers out there 12 million CN C++ developers out there and the right thing to do initially was to say how do we B the evm developers that will stay there right the evm is not going anywhere but the question we ask ourselves now is okay who else can we we Bend our technology to can we Bend to the web 2 developers can we give them the technology they need it's not only about the developers it's also about the code they've written can I go to a company and say hey you've built this awesome game engine uh written in C you know what you don't have to reimplement that you could become an onchain game and take the code that you spent the last decade writing and that's you know always our ethos it was true for evm

folk it was true for today and again the evm is not going anywhere we're just constantly saying all right we have this core how do we how do we grow from there and how do we actually get you know those users on on chain yeah and I think that that's a that's a big part of of the story is this is just uh scaling ethereum and bringing giving developers the tools to build an execution environments that that that are highly scalable for new Innovative applications and then now moving into stylus and O other fronts that and that kind of promps me to what I'd like to set set the foundation for this for the rest of this talk which is like arbitrum as a as a tech stack is is now much bigger than what it was uh when arbitrum one went live to the point where there there's

things going on which I may not even be aware of um how can we conceptualize what arbitrum tech stack is at its core uh and and and kind of what these like spokes are to the arbitrum hub if you will or even better what is the right way to think about this arbitrum stack that you guys have built uh what is your narrative there absolutely so the arbitrum stack so there's products and there's technology I'll start with the technology so um today and since 2022 so a year after launch the core arbitrum uh technology platform is Arbitron Nitro so initially there was something called the Arbitron virtual machine the AVM and that was went live in 2021 but in 2022 we launched arbitr Nitro which is wasm

based or web assembly based um back then we didn't have any web assembly contracts it was all evm but the underneath the fraud proving was all done in web assembly um at at that point and then uh fast forward to today so I mentioned arbit stylist where we've added a second VM so there's all this buzz and all this talk out there about alt VMS on CH we're bullish yes I've seen some of your some of your uh tweets um arbitrum is has I think the Best of Both Worlds because it has a dual VM it has the evm and it has an ALT VM and the alt VM has some fantastic properties so for example you can write as I mentioned contracts in Rost and CN C++ you also get a 10x so 10x performance benefit for computation when you do that so a lot of

a lot of really good features so that's the core arit from stack today so yes it's uh grown a lot from initially the AVM through arbitrum Nitro that was wasm based through now stylus that actually gives developers access to wasm and lets them write wasm based contracts today in Rust and c and C++ but that's a platform that's extendable so if we uh you know move is a great language there's nothing stopping move from so importing move to stylist and having move sty move contrast and stylist as well actually it's one a platform that can innovate with as developer toolings and languages innovate Arbitron will be able to uh support that uh the same way um any wasm based um instance would so very very exciting there and then um so those are the Technologies that's like the core

core technology but as you know building a chain is a lot more than just the core technology the right smart contracts you need to have you know a suite of other tooling and some of it we can build some of it we can't build right some we can build but we actually want to use you know popular infrastructure providers so for example yeah we could build a block Explorer ourselves but arbis scan you know is built by Ether scan a much better block Explorer same with nodes same with rpcs so um the core Technologies the arbitrum Nitro stack today enabled a stylist that gives you the ability to write these SM contracts and then um the next level of this is uh so that that's like the core technology but then there's a question of how is this technology deployed like where is this technology deployed how many

instances of this technology are deployed so initially there was one instance of arbitrum which we called arbit one and by the way that name was was from day one so you might expect we always had not that there will be something called AR 2 but like it was always obvious to us that there would be more than one instance of arbitrum and actually you know going back just to uh the academic paper and how things have changed in a few cases we've actually zigzagged really in interesting ways I'll give you two examples and then I'll get back to what we're actually talking about um but one example is um there's all this talk today about based rollups and I actually think that base rollups in their current form uh with pre-confirmation don't really make sense and have some serious serious issues but

the core idea that ethereum can be a sequencer um if you want to deal with the ethereum block time certainly without Pro confirmations but that's an old idea and actually if you look back at the Arbitron paper there was no sequencer it was literally just using ethereum for this so that's one idea but the one that I wanted to mention which is related to to the point here is if you look back at the old at the original arbit academic paper again this is the paper that was published in 2018 but the culminations of ideas from 2013 there were like envisioned to be many many chains like the idea was there that like you'd spin up a chain to do some poker game or some app and then you'd spin down the chain right actually the initial like you know you had these chains that were like specific uh for

not only like applications but for a specific instance of that application and that was the way we thought about it back then and then we realized that like you know that the world's not ready for that Vision today we need to have you know one really strong chain where there's like deep liquidity that defi can have you know synchronous interactions and that became clear and that's what led to arbitrum 1 but ironically today we're kind of getting back to that Vision a little bit where now there's you know people are talking about Bas sequencing again people are talking about oh there's going to be a million chains I just uh got back from uh um a panel where where someone was mentioning this idea of there being like a million chains and like you know that's this is funny because like that's

actually you know where we were then um but I actually have a more Nuance approach today and it relates to our ecosystem and how it's deployed so arbitrum one is you can think of it as the center and you know it has deep liquidity and there are some applications where it just makes sense to launch an arbiton one if you're a defi app that wants to tap into deep liquidity and synchronous interoperability with uh other applications you know the other hundreds of Def defi applications in arbitrum 1 that's where you want to be but some teams particularly teams that don't need that uh might want to launch their own chains and might actually want to say you know what I'm going to uh maybe I'm a game and I don't care as much about interop I'm going to go ahead and launch my very own chain uh on the arbitr stack

and we have a program there called arbitrum orbit which gives developers the ability to actually uh launch you know their own chain and then there's a question which I I'll pause here but you know just out the question which happy to get to is what is the interrupt story uh among These Chains how do they talk to one another um how does that develop over time but ultimately you know arbitrum uh has the ability to do both uh really good neutral by the way chain you neutral means it's not controlled by any company on the application layer it's a neutral chain but also has the ability to launch your own chains and it's really nice that we have this dual identity I don't think actually anyone else has this dual identity there are ecosystems that have a neutral platform like Salon is a great example um there

are ecosystems that have pushed you to launch your own chain but there is no ecosystem that both has a neutral successful chain that not that the chain operators are not also competing with you at the application layer and also has the ability to graduate to your own chain and one uh example of this working in practice actually on my way walking over here I just saw omit from proof of play they're building pirate Nation really popular game on arbit crushing game they're actually they're actually doing two chains today but they actually started off well they started off in a different ecosystem they came to arbitrum and got uh great fee reductions but they started off on Arbitron public chains in their case was Arbitron Nova which is the gaming social public chain but they started off in the public chains outgrew that but because they're

in the arbitrum ecosystem because all their Tech is built on the arbit stack they were they were fine to go ahead and just launch their own orbit chains and they launch an orbit chain and they outgrew that and they launch a second orbit chain and you know to users are getting a uh cohesive experience but um you know that's basically what we think about there's arbit one the in the center and then there's you know literally an orbit of chains around it today on the order of 100 teams building chains around this orbit uh of arbit chains yeah and mentioned it was a constellation not a not a cluster so just uh just a heads up couple points I mean I think role up as a service providers have been crucial for the distribution of the arbit from technology um those have absolutely blown up in popularity and usage of the

last year as that that has that has became a ma a massive distribution channel for arbit orbit technology um and simultaneously this like shift in developer thinking uh of okay I want to build an opinionated kind of like purpose-built app specific chain uh I want to be on a place where I can inherit revenues from sequencer I want to have customizability which I know a really cool chain is is rehea that has customized the block times from arbitrum orbit another very successful one that were that were quite close with and and so these kind of customiz abilities they come into to builders who want to go and get those and have those properties but then on the synchronicity as you mentioned that is where kind of like the

main chain comes in and so from my perspective arbitrum has dominated the defi application side on arbitrum one I mean since Inception GMX gains uh Sushi was there there there's a ton of of defi growth now that there's way more names than I can keep track of um and then we're also simultaneously entering this potentially new regime uh of of of United States um regulatory Clarity or at least the perception of such that is allowing defi to enter into this perceived defi Renaissance um so I'm curious from from your perspective what the state of arbitrum defi is today and what are you guys doing to bring that even bigger and and better going forward arbitrum is the home of defi uh I I

agree and arbitrium is the home of I'll say defi Innovation and that's like actually like the key the key here right um not the home of like copycat def5 protocol but if you want to build an interesting def5 protocol that's different that's unique that's trying something new arbitrum is the most collaborative and you know the most liquid ecosystem to do that so arbitrum is uh defi is a really really strong you know vertical arbitrum but to get you know to your your other point so how does this all work together you know so yes you have customizability particularly on on the Chain front um is super important and the way we think about how these work together like so so if I'm a defi app today I probably want to launch an arbitrum one but there are other know ra you mentioned is a great

example of defi existing an arbitrum orbit chains so we think about and they're doing like you said you know one of the the nicest thing about arbitrum chains is the block time so the public chains run at 250 milliseconds uh um the Teo is stable to run much much faster in fact Raa as you mentioned is running the same Tech stack that we support at 100 millisecond block times which is like really good because like if I'm uh you know for it's really good for them because for Defi and efficiency and you know Arbitrage and Oracle updates uh big big difference and actually I think that's why uh per succeeded in arbitrum is because of the fast uh fast block times um you know really really important but actually good just for user experiences as well right if I'm a consumer Focus chain and I'm going to

you know you're I'm targeting users that are web to users whether it's a game or whether they're purchasing something it doesn't really matter I don't know about you but if I go to Google and like search or something and it's been like I don't know 100 milliseconds and like I don't get a response like come on refresh refresh yeah exactly um you we're all like you know crypto users so yeah we get it you know if I have to wait a couple seconds we're not going to freak out but we don't want to stop at us right same way we don't want to stop at solidity we don't want to stop at the community we have today we want to bring the world on chain we want to on board the world world to the blockchain with arbitrum technology and we have to think about what is the user experience

they're going to need and they're not going to want to wait for 2 seconds and say all right they're going to say you know what I don't like blockchain gaming they're going to say because my games used to be fast and now they're slow so we can't sell these experiences there actually going to be a degradation user experience and that's the I think the reason why arbit is taking off in gaming too you can actually have a fully onchain game like pirate nation and actually give users the same user experience that they want so the one place where we have to say think about though is okay what about the interoperability let's say there's a user that's an arbiton one that wants to be also another so I don't know if we're call constellations or clusters but typically we call them chain clusters is the is this is our idea of there there's

there's these ideas out there which are actually powerful and you know we have our version is called chain clusters that allows you to couple chains more closely together so you can have say two or three or five or 10 chains that trust each other and can actually synchronously interact you know faster than the settlement time and get really good interaction the problem faster than the L1 settlement time yes and this is like you know think think about it like you know in the optimism ecosystem this is the super you know similar to the super chain correct correct the problem that we have is you know we don't believe in like a super chain Vision once and for all because the problem is in order to do this you have to trust each other because if two chains are communicating synchronously if there's something goes wrong in chain a there

will be contagion to chain B that's the problem with like par wise basically yes and now you have like 10 chains or 100 chains in this cluster and so think about Innovation you know rehea uh think about Phoenix uh building um privacy fully homor encryption on chain now you have this one chain cluster and what does it have have it has like you know the biggest chains say arbitrum one in this chain cluster and it's going to have Enterprise chains and defi chains and nft chains and then this chain called Phoenix comes along and says hey I want to join this but I also want to like make deep changes to the stack they're going to say like no no no you can't do that in in our chain cluster because we have to actually TR cuz if something goes wrong in what you're doing it actually can affect us too and

the nft teams are going to want to make changes that the defi teams don't really care for and the defi teams are going to want to change things NS I don't want I don't want those changes in our CH the gaming teams are going to have their own so you have all these varied interests and what happens is you don't accomplish anything those that are that are more prominent in the stack those one or two chains will control the road map and everyone else will have to run the exact same Tech stack and actually we've seen this in other ecosystems there was a chain called uh the public goods Network by by G and they shut down for a few reasons one of the reason they said is they wanted to do um royalties enforced on chain but they couldn't get the governance ability to do that so we

believe in arbitrum your chain your rules there doesn't make sense to have a one cluster for all because that stifles Innovation you won't have Phoenix and you know what we might know what the best technology of today is but we don't know what the best technology of tomorrow is and if we don't allow teams like Phoenix to try really radical but amazing and promising new bets there's no way that we're going to advance if we I'm not ready to stifle Innovation and say everyone should launch vanilla arbitrum so that's why the vision that we have among interop are chain clusters so the defi chains can synchronously interact with themselves if they choose to self- selecting the NF chains can do that the gaming chains can do that and they all have the same interests and and be much closer and much more willing to

make changes but there's no way that the defi chains and the nft chains and the gaming chains and the Privacy chains are going to make you know those changes for one other so that's like our deep deep vision of interop and it's one that allows you to have customizability and the last thing I'll say is you know not giving up your governance and not giving up your ability to customize is like crucial because even if you think today like it's okay I don't want to do anything special I want a vanilla chain it's the optionality of the future that you also want as well that's why the sovereignty to make your own decisions even if today you don't want to do anything special maybe in a year maybe in 2 years maybe in 5 years maybe in 10 years and that's why I'm a big big

believer in the self- selecting uh chain cluster vision and by the way you know what the best example of a team that can cluster themselves it's a team that it's actually two chains run by the same team they're naturally governed by the same team they're naturally so like you know if um Pyon Nation proof of play wants to you know take they have two chains called Apex and boss sure that's a natural cluster they can get great ux benefits operate and look to users as one chain and they naturally trust each other I think we can extend that a little more broadly than one team you know a few gaming teams that have a similar vision but there's no way that we're going to both simultaneously have Innovation and everyone in a single chain cluster and we're building an interrupt future um that doesn't sful

Innovation doesn't require you to give the keys up to your Innovation to someone else one missing question mark real quick Rob is are these chain clusters then like gaming cluster for example or proof of play cluster then you've got defi Etc are these also interoperable amongst each other so that's a great question so yeah so you have these different clusters that are like very interoperable very interoperable but then our job is to say okay how do we build the best-in-class interoperability between between those as Weller it won't quite be as good right as cluster it doesn't have to be because yeah the the there The World Isn't partition between nft users and game user users the D5 person also likes to play games but where I keep my def5 funds larger here sure sometimes they going to have to send funds there and

you want to have the best experience you know that we can have there and that's where like I don't know we recently shipped a feature called Fast withdrawals which for arbit from any trust chain takes the withdrawal time down from what was 7 days which is still 7 Days in the rollup for any trust chains now down to 15 minutes awesome teams like layer zero and a cross and connect and you know a hop can all tap into that now they have much more efficient um you know bridging so we put out at the infrastructure they are great tools and keep innovating there to make you know this asynchronous uh bridging as good as it can be starting with um sending coins and value to arbitrary message passaging um you know int Spas Solutions we just uh announced today um our support for 7683 oh congrats it's

awesome so I think that there are all pieces to but a much broader puzzle and you know putting this all together by the way the wallets uh and the apps they all have have a part in this as well and it's really going to be you know people talk about interrup as if there's this like one thing that's going to like you know fall from Heaven and we're all going to like know okay this is interop but actually it's a bit more of a messy game it's all these really cool pieces working together and a lot of that ux actually comes to the wallets to package that together for for users and take all these great be pieces and bits of technology and put forth the best uh path for users to actually you know do what they intend to do so the vision here is degrees of interop and and we

have uh very close almost a home of of tightly connected chains uh for chains that are building in in a similar domain gaming chains will coales around one another defi similar uh and then those are interoperable but it's almost a fractal Vision where uh we have varying degrees of inter drop as you scale out and so very tight Network effects amongst those chain I almost want to refer to them as parties rather than clusters because it's like you know you invite to your party these these these people that you want to be like-minded with and similar around and then as you kind of Branch out you'll have uh you'll have different degrees of network effects as as you zoom out and so as you're thinking about arbitrum as one Collective family of chains you know all

of these parties and and clusters are making making up the arbitrum ecosystem system how can you make sure that all of these Network effects are synergistic with one another they're obviously having very varying different degrees of interrup against uh among each other and that interrup will solve this fragmentation problem that we see between you know not just rollups but also layer ones everything is has kind of branched out as we get to the vision of a million rollups and I think that is a vision that is pretty common that a lot of us are are seeing into the future you know it will be multi-chain it potentially could be millions of rollups and so you know interop is the solution for that H how are you thinking about value acral in the arbitrum stack and to make sure that it is you know one

Collective uh home for the entire arbitrum ecosystem and and all of that all of that is synergistic with one another safe is moving the world's GDP onchain with the introduction of safet safe is taking this to the next step very soon check out net. safe. Global to learn more about how safe is moving the world's GDP onchain welcome aboard on our journey into the singularity this is the endgame road map for frax and fractal the new L2 out of the frax ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling frax is a modular L2 blockchain built by fra with modular and fractal scaling in mind fractal scaling

is based on the mandal BR set of fractal images and it explains how l2s become l3s and the entire app chain life cycle goes through its Evolution the frax ecosystem is made of some of the top builders in the space and has stemmed from its OG days of the frax stable coin it is now in the LST space the LRT space and this frax L2 joins the existing Suite of frax products in ining Frack Swap and fra lend you can see fra fairy the bridge to go from any chain arbitrum optimism or

main net into the frax main net Bridge your tokens and bring your FRA assets into the fractal ecosystem join today to get the best out of fraxo you are still early join today take part in our Expedition into the singularity you okay so things to say here number one is the best analogy I have for this model is like it's a dated analogy but TV channels if you will and the idea is and I I've like posted this in the past idea is you have like your cartoon channel Cartoon Network maybe where you have your cartoons and you have your news channels and it's okay to have a few news channels right it doesn't have to be like one dii chain or one there could be a few competing that's that's great

and you have your um say National Geographic Channel and by the way there will be some cartoons about nature right there will be some nft marketplaces right it's not always an exact science you can put yourself in a bucket but the idea is you know we find these bucks and it makes a lot of sense because you know on the one hand it doesn't make sense for every TV show to have its own channel right you'd have to now go and like negotiate with the networks and with the advertisers it would be crazy also and they would be empty most of the day right it also doesn't make sense for there to be one channel for everyone because like not everyone wants to watch the same thing we went into those like really you know to use the analogy there's not going to be no innovation

we're going to have to do the most boring thing that the most users want to use and that's not going to be too exciting so I think we find a model where um you have this network of clusters that really solves the user the needs of users and no one's saying you have to be in this channel it's natural that's where you go and um you know that's where you want to be but in terms of how I think the the the more the second part of the question was really about how do we you know make sure that there's alignment uh and these are all contributing to the same vision this is actually where I want to talk about the AR licensing model which um you know I think the most Innovative licensing model you know in in the space and I think you know it's really a lesson for

how we can uh as a community think about you know what licensing should be in web 3 so historically licensing has been you know software licensing has been very binary there's uh open source and close source and that's it and close Source you know Enterprises like because it keep gives them an edge but it's bad because you know it stifles open Innovation others can't use your code can't build in it they have to start from scratch so people don't love don't love you know Clos closed source for good reason open source is great I wrote the software stack anyone can build in it anyone can use it fantastic yes but then you run into problems and the problems that you we've seen in the past like sometimes there are these libraries like uh you know some crypto libraries that are often you know uh literally

securing trillions of dollars of like corporate Enterprise Value yes and like they have these like bugs and you look and say like who's uh who's maintaining this and it's like oh it's like these like uh three like part-time poorly funded developers and like you say like what's going on here like every Big company it's a tragedy the Comm right everyone's relying on the software but no one's actually contributing to it and you know we've gotten better as an industry about this but you know you can look through history and and see these and I'm sure that there are many more examples in the open source space today so what we said in arbitrum is how do we solve this problem right how do we accomplish what we don't want closed Source software we want open source software in the sense we want there the freedom for users to use it freedom to

innovate build what you want customize what you want do whatever you want but we also want you to be you know contributing back to the funding of the software contributing back to the vision that's going to propel this forward and the nice SC that we have in crypto that we didn't have before and you know when you're just a software um repository on GitHub is now we have Financial communities treasuries around this so the way that the arbit from software licensing work is we don't call it open source or closed Source we call it Community Source right it belongs to the community it belongs to the uh arbitrum community in this case and you know what if you want to go ahead and uh launch softer we're going to say hey you should contribute back to that community so how does that work if you're building an L3

on arbitrum 1 which many of the arbitrum orbit chains are you're implicitly contributing back to the community because you're settling your fees are going back to the Arbitron one those are collected all the fees in the Chain by the way go to the Arbitron Dow on chain treasury there also unique among rollups the fact that all the all theal goes to the Dow treasury on chain um so you don't need to do anything explicit you're good to go and customize the software how you will but let's say you don't want let's say you want to build an L2 on ethereum now what well you can just do that and use the software and grow and even compete with arbitrum and and never actually contribute anything back what you're asked to do is hey contribute like a meaningful but not too large part of your of your profits back

to to the arbitrum DA what we call the arbitrum developer Guild to fund development of this software so you're asked to give 10 10% of your onchain profit so if you take your settlement costs subtract those from your onchain uh costs and what your left is your onchain uh profit 10% of that goes back to again the core community and core development um of this software and by the way arbitrum is has become the the default execution layer not just on arbitrum if you look throughout the community you know those who are launching layer twos on ethereum are predominantly choosing you know the the arbitrum stack I think the arbitrum orbit today has 100 plus chains which is larger than any other ecosystem in terms of the number of chains uh building on it and also if you actually look even at our competitor's ecosystems um you find

arbitrum chains there are arbitrum chains arbitrum l3s on bar you know um on BAS base yes if you actually look at uh some of their you say be chain yeah sorry is that chain real they're they are talking about arbit m 3 ver chain I don't know interesting M fair I believe I've seen I've seen this uh but um but on base they actually have live arbitr chains um you have arbitr chains uh on base um their biggest chains right biggest all3 dgen chain you know uh which was um quite big uh a couple months back um you have uh yes exactly um uh Blackbird which is the restaurant um app that's on base arbitrum chain so

arbitrum is not just the execution model of arbitrum arbitrum is becoming the execution model of etherium and Beyond and how does that sustainable how does that work to your question even if orbit chain certainly as as the execution it proliferates into into these other ecosystems right so how does that work Community sourced that's fine go ahead do your thing you don't need to ask me permission you don't need to ask anyone permission go ahead Self Serve Innovation build where you want to build but you know what be a part of the community contribute back to the community that's making it all possible and that's why I think a community source is again it wasn't possible before before there wasn't a financial community that you can Co L around right imagine saying GitHub you can Fork my

repo but like you just send me money like it doesn't work right but now it actually does work because all these communities are financialized so Stephen as we kind of come come to come to a wrap up here the last question which I think we we've answered in this entire show but but I'm definitely Keen to understand like a short like one or one or a couple liners here is Rob Rob and I speak to uh Builders of who want to launch their own app chains on like probably weekly like multiple times per week it's a new Builder that either you know we've invested in or that we are supporting in some capacity the first question is always like which ass do I use and it's like which which stack do I build on so so for those builders that are watching in this why should people

choose to build on arbitrum orbit specifically if I want to launch an an app chain I know we talked about a lot of it already but why should I I build on arbitrum orbit great question so yeah and I'm glad to summarize it this is actually the most important question and you know what there's a lot of different chains out there a lot of different communities and a lot of conflicting information so to make it concise um fastest block times right so you have 250 millisecond block times on the public chains 100 milliseconds those aren't the fastest by the way 100 millisecond you know we have examples of chains running those aren't the fast l2s those are the fastest chains in crypto right Solana is close at 400 milliseconds or these are the fastest blockchains and again if you're building something whether it's for defi

efficiency or it's for user sanity if you will like click that button I want that answer you want fast block times that's number one number two is customizability your chain your rules the really nice thing about about the the way about this community Source mechanism is you know what I didn't mention anywhere any sort of other token being inserted into your model not there your chain your rules you control your governance and even if today you don't want you think well I know what I want to do and it's fine control your governance for the future I think you know a big mistake people get are today are uh are making is giving up their governance which is going to again stifle Innovation arbitrum allows you to customize and innovate literally in any way you want that means you want to add

privacy on chain that means you want to um brand your chain in particular way that means you want to do we have chains like Kinto and plume and ment that are doing in institutional Focus chains and KY seed environments uh in some cases go ahead do it on the arbitr chain and by the way you're also still a first class Citizen and you're eligible for all sorts of um Dow and Foundation programs so that's number two um on the technology front and number three is uh which we haven't touched but it's an old theme of mine is arbitrium is the chain and the stack that prioritize security from day one arbitrum has had fraud proofs lives and decentralization there's one stack that you know is the leading one when it comes to decentralization and security and that is arbitra and we are continuing that we're continuing to build uh you know to

stage two and Beyond and to bring the world on chain securely because you know what if we succeed in building people on chain we we replace one centralized system with another centralized system like we've completely failed do we've lost the plot in our list of priorities decentralization and security are number one growth important but much further down the list because we have to make sure we're actually doing something interesting and worthy of our times and not just replacing one set of centralized actors with others and uh the last thing more broadly is the arbitrum ecosystem and Community from the very first days of arbitrum uh we employed a fair launch strategy and that's led to the ethos of the ecosystem where it's collaborative it's fun but it's also like you know

sure there's a lot of you know amazing teams building so there's always going to be competition but it's the most collaborative and welcoming ecosystem that I've seen among Builders you can go and take a look at the Dow Forum yourselves you have like examples of you know my favorite one is GMX voting for synthetics funding like can you uh for synthetics Grand crazy crazy um you think about it but again this is the collaborative ecosystem because we recognize that we're not going to succeed by building walls and keeping others out we're going to succeed by actually executing and building the best products and giving people access to the best crypto ecosystem uh and that is arbitrum and that's what's going to bring the next million developers and next billion users on Shane uh as we go into 2025 and Beyond what an ending

there yeah I I mean I've seen on the governance Forum I think it's the lowest barrier of entry and and and you can see that one new user one new unit of liquidity is a net win for everyone in the ecosystem absolutely yes and you know I I and we are building you know best-in-class technology best-in-class inter by the way you know there are people that said fast why why would you ship fast withdrawals right there's like keep the the users in there for longer isn't that greater and the answer is I don't want any user to be on arbitrum because they feel locked in there I want users to be able to go and interrupt wherever they want and come back to arbiton because it has real applications for real users and the best user experience that there is and that's why you should be an arbit not because

anyone's forcing you to be there but because you want to be there and it's the best place for you to transact which I believe for for most users and probably for all users today and across many many different verticals arbitrum is that is just that the best place to uh transact in crypto thanks Stephen it's been an absolute pleasure thank you for having me thanks