The stablecoin opportunity: Circle's IPO and onchain payments with Sam Broner

Transcript

GM. Good morning. Welcome to the Milk Road Show, the daily crypto show where we leave narratives faster than a first bad date. I'm your host, Jay Hamilton. It's Monday, June the 9th. Last week, Circle had its IPO with incredible success, up almost 4x since its launch last Thursday. So, everyone is talking about stable coins right now. not just from the investment perspective, also from the regulation perspective and also from the adoption perspective because stable coins are just flying right now.

So to talk about stable coins, where we're at right now, where we're going, and the opportunities and how you should think about investing in stable coins and the framework around that, we're joined today by Sam Broner, investor at A16Z. We're going to talk about why how stable coins have become bigger than PayPal and Visa combined. We're going to talk about the future and the opportunities to invest. Before we jump in, we are going to be the Milk Road team is going to be at Permissionless at the end of June. That's June 23rd. We have an event where you guys can come out, have some drinks with us, meet the team. Also, if you want to attend Permissionless, you can get $100 off your ticket. Hit the link

in the show notes. Today's episode is brought to you by Letin get cash without selling your Bitcoin. It's also brought to you by Meanwhile, Ditch Dollars Insure in Bitcoin. Without further ado, Sam, welcome to the Milk Road Show. How's it going, Jay? Am I gonna get an invite to that uh event promotionalist? Oh, yeah. Are you in New York? I'll be in New York. Yeah, I'll be in New York for it. All right, my man. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Done. Great. Done. Yeah. Sam's gonna be there. Even more reason to come out. Even I'll stop by. That'll be fun. give us a little bit of a brief intro of yourself and then uh and then let's lead into a a quick combo about uh about Circle's IPO last week. That's obviously the news news news of the day around around stable coins. So look, I'm

an investor at 816Z. I spent a lot of my time on stable coins, payments, the boundary between crypto and fintech, but I also focus on real world assets. How are we going to tokenize the the legacy generation of assets that are currently living in traditional silos? Before I was at 816C, I was a researcher and engineer at Microsoft and I did distributed systems. I focused on non-ordered consensus algorithms and I I got into crypto because I realized look these are the types of algorithms I was working with. Those are probably a better way to move money, move assets, create composability between siloed data. ultimately went to MIT, worked at the Boston Fed on stable coin research, and um now you know I'm an investor and

um I already said what I spent my time on, but I couldn't be more excited about how the year is going so far with people finally waking up to the opportunity of stable coins. Yeah, no kidding. It's like the the most obvious thing that is happening in crypto and one of the most exciting use cases, but it's so not sexy, so it doesn't get talked about a lot and and it's difficult to speculate on, right? doesn't have the same speculation investment opportunities uh that that some of the other opportunities in crypto have right now, but that is coming. I spent a little while saying walking around saying, "Guys, obviously payments was going to happen first with crypto. We've been talking about this for 10 years. How ridiculous would it be if we had started with a different thing?" It had to

happen. It's going to drag a lot of DeFi and other exciting parts of crypto forward, but finally, you know, payments cost less than a cent and happen in less than one second. It's a better payment rail and so fintech's waking up to it. It's It is a real like uh Homer Simpson duh moment every time you think about it, right? Yeah. I used to say it was the dumbest use of crypto, but now I just think it's sort of the best and first use of crypto. Yeah. Uh okay, let's circle IPO last week. Incredible, incredibly successful IPO. IPOed at $31, sitting around $110 as of this recording. Uh just, you know, wow. What what a start. What what's what's your takeaway from that? What what does that

signal to you to see a stable coin company IPO with such success? Yeah, I mean look, Circle, they they IPOed at six, they're at 24ish last time I checked. I haven't looked at the market today, but you know, three and a halfx um after after IPO means that there's a lot of latent demand. Uh you know, people people want access to to to the stable coin narrative. But mostly when I look at this, I I just sort of think about the narrative and I think about all of these fintexs that woke up to stable coins over the course of the last three three months or so. I wrote a piece at the in May saying this, you know, April and May were the months that FinTech woke up to stable coin payments

because Visa announced the product, PayPal announced the product, Mastercard announced the product, Stripe announced the product, Moneygram announced the product, and you're starting to see that uh it's not just web three people anymore. You can now spend and save stable coins using existing rails. And so, look, the IPO is big news. It's a a flashy headline, but the biggest news is that people on Wall Street and people on Main Street are both realizing that stable coins are probably a better way to spend and save. And that's the most exciting part to me.

Yeah, it it again, I think that it's so obvious to people in this space, and I mean, this is the truth of all tech, right? When you're in early to tech, it feels very obvious, but for everybody outside the space, it's not so obvious. And where we need people to see it's obvious is in the traditional system because that's where the adoption needs to happen. Let's just talk a little bit about the adoption right now because I think people don't recognize how big stable coins really are already. Uh let me bring up a couple of slides that were shared by uh your colleague Darren who's been on the show uh before as well. uh give us a an outline of the size of stable coins right now when you look at

them in in the payments world comparison to other payment systems. Okay, so first of all, Darren, God bless him, our data weatherman, put this together and this is available in other places, but I think Darren did the best job breaking this out. There was $33 trillion of payments on stable coins in the last 12 months. To put that in perspective, that's almost 3x what Visa did. It's something like 30x what PayPal did. Um AC which is another payment rail used by uh financial institutions and large enterprises did more. But just like look at where where stable coins are sitting in in the overall lineup here. The um one of the things that I think people

are are missing about about stable coins is that the P2P so personto person uh and B2B use cases and the checkout use case when someone goes to a store and buys something those are also growing really fast. It's not just financial institutions using stable coins to do arbitrage or make trades. Those use cases are growing in many cases more than 10% a month. So quick anecdote for you Jay. Like I'm an investor. I talked to a bunch of um a bunch of startups doing remittances and crossber payments this winter. There's going to be 30 of them. All of them are doing millions of dollars in payment volume a month. And all of them basically were growing 10 to 40% a month. So just this like

industry-wide growth. Uh Darren begins to capture it with just the the raw payment plan, but I want to give you a sense of the trenches. I'm talking to founders and they're saying, "Guys, I just I just helped 20% more people send money from the US to Colombia in February." And just like I'm hearing that over and over and over again, just under unbelievable growth. And so, um, it's happening up and down the stack. The other thing that is really impressive to see, but also sort of points out the opportunity, uh, is another slide that Darren made, which is that stable coin supply is at an all-time high. And we know I think we talk about this a lot on the show. Uh it's continued to grow grow rapidly, but it's still very small in terms of how

much of the total US dollar supply has been tokenized. Can you talk to us about how big we are and about how much bigger we could get here? Yeah. Well, so I thought 1.1% was kind of a lot. Like if I told you that 1% of dollars are sitting in Venmo balances, you would say that's insane. I mean 1% um so look this is this to me represents a um a quite a big accomplishment and more than just the volume it means that a lot of users now have access to these stable coins and there's a bit of a network effect here as more people have stable coins there's more reasons for entrepreneurs to build businesses that use stable

coins more reasons for merchants to accept stable coins and there's going to be better integrations with banks and Venmo and Fintex because there's network effects there. My favorite slide from this actually I think is the next one which shows that uh that stable coin volumes are beginning to be uncorrelated with crypto trading volumes. This is like the money shot to me. The the over time what has happened is the stable coin usage goes up when more people want to speculate on assets. But what we've been seeing recently is that stable coins have been stable coin volumes have been going up because more people want to use stable coins and the

services DeFi lending and so forth that are adjacent to stable coins and that is the beginning sign of product market fit for the first category the first non-speculative category in crypto and I think it's going to kick off a lot more adoption going forward. Yeah, it feels like that is exactly what crypto needs, right? A nonspeculative use case. Not that speculation is a bad thing. Uh but it certainly has been the use case that we have and that has dominated so far. So let's let's get other use cases. I I want to before we jump into um your a recent article that you wrote, you talked about some of the issues and the opportunities for stable coins to

continue to grow. Uh I want to show one more slide uh that you posted last week which just is is really mind-blowing to me and this is talking about why payment processors are using stable coins and the cost for payment processors. So you found that if you compare credit card processing to stable coin processing that the the payment processor pay makes three time more than three times more revenue using stable coins. Can you just walk us through this because this is this is to me just it it's so obvious when you see a slide like this. Okay.

Right. So today when you go buy a coffee shop at a local, you know, buy buy a coffee at a local coffee shop, you spend $2 on the coffee and the merchant only gets $1.70. The the credit card network and the issuing bank are taking 30 maybe 35 cents of a $2 transaction. It's really a lot and it affects small businesses everywhere. So here we look at a $100 purchase and how much money does the issuing bank make? Does the card network make in a $100 purchase? They're getting basically $3 out of that. And the merch, you know, for me, I'm mostly worried about the consumer and the merchant. Like we don't need Visa and issuing banks to be like lining their pockets with these

fees. The current state-of-the-art in stable coinbased payments or like the, you know, sort of cheapest pricing is somewhere between 1% and 1.5%. But we're just three or four months in. I expect that pricing to continue to drop. So the merchant is getting something that costs almost 50% less. They're getting a 50% discount on the ability to see receive money. But the crazy part is because you're cutting out all these middlemen, the payment processor. So someone like Stripe or um Aden or Shift 4, they can actually take three or 4x more money because they got rid of these banks and the card networks. So it's really this win-win for the payment processors and for the merchants. The only we lose are the extractive networks. We're okay with that. And and I guess uh when we started

talking to payment processors about this uh this new flow of them using stable coins, what we realize is the ideal amount of fees might not be zero. Um, it might be a a small but worthwhile bit of spend to encourage the payment processors to do distribution because Stripe needs to get a little bit out of this in order to push stable coins as a new rail. And so we're happy about this initial flow. Like the fact that Stripe gets to 3x the revenue um while offering merchants a cheaper product, this is this is a great win for everyone and we're excited to see it play out. I think it's going to lead to a lot of stable coin adoption. Is the the natural flow here that Visa and Mastercard and

all the payment processors are going to fully use stable coins eventually? Oh man, it's interesting. You know, um these are big companies who have a great business model right now. They've got a lot of profitability, you know, like so these are these and Mastercard are two of the most profitable uh by margin companies in the world. and that business is built off of um owning a a network. Stable coins disrupt that network. They're uh much easier to program. They're uh open and permissionlessly composable. If you want to start a fintech today, you can get started today by building and programming stable coins. If you want to

work with Visa and Mastercard or the card networks, you've got to go to an intermediary. You're gonna have to give them a cut. It's it's way harder. There's way more paperwork involved. Like just sort of annoying stuff. If you're an engineer or a product person, you're accustomed to using a great cloud services. You don't want to go through and set up your own server. Like that's kind of the equivalent like you you get this this awesome product they won um with with stable coins. And so that is to say, I think they're going to try to adopt stable coins. Certainly, I think they're aware of stable coins. I think they're going to try to make sure their product is compatible.

But there's real risk for them and um I think they're going to be cautiously observing how they can continue to maintain their profit margin and ultimately it just might not be possible if stable coins become a a core rail for how people do payments in the world. It's uh it's it's always interesting to think about how disruption happens and how the incumbents adopt to that disruption. Uh and and in this case it's as as you said they're they're in but they're they're so profitable but then you look at Tether and how profitable they are and you think well okay they're more even more profitable than Visa and Mastercard. So yeah, look the um I mean tether is unbeliev you know as they're

reported um profits have been eye popping. I mean it's just unbelievable. But the um but yeah I think the question is will the existing payment rails self-cannibalize in order to embrace what is going to be the next the next wave of product and that's always a hard question. Not not all companies can make the leap to the next uh technology standard. Okay. Uh, I want to chat now about um this concept of the singleness of money and what what needs to happen in order for stable coins to truly become money. Uh, which is a little bit of a confusing term because it's very nuanced. Uh, so I want to dive into that

and then I also want to talk about the stable coin treasury adoption as treasury bills are being adopted constantly by stable coins. And then we're going to talk about your investment thesis for stable coins. But before we do that, we just need to take a quick break to hear from our sponsors who make the show possible. Selling your Bitcoin should be a last resort when you need cash. That's why there's Leen, the trusted platform for Bitcoin backed loans. You can unlock cash in as little as 18 hours with no monthly interest payments and no prepayment penalties. They've issued over 9 billion in loans and never lost a single Satoshi of client funds, even during the chaos of 2022. If you're a long-term hodler, this is the move. Get liquidity without

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first Bitcoin life insurance. Okay, we're back at Sam. What is the singleness of money? What does that mean and how does stable coins achieve that? Okay, so first, yes, this is kind of a nuance topic. I worked at the Fed. The Fed, the Fed being a Federal Reserve Bank, they love this topic. The idea is that we all take for granted now that when I have a dollar of cash in my hand or a dollar in a Venmo or PayPal balance, a dollar in the bank, uh these are worth the same amount and we consider it to be the same dollar.

That's actually a little bit weird because uh you you might want to price like how hard is it to get the dollar out of Venmo? What if I need to send someone a dollar in cash across the world? That cost something. They kind of have different value if you like really think it. They also have different credit risk. How likely is it that Venmo is going to default? I don't think they will. They're you know well backed a bank. You've got consumer protections. These all became worth a dollar a after basically a hundred years of regulatory work and building systems that made us think of them as being worth the same amount. And stable coins aren't yet there. If I want to uh turn a million dollars of USDC into a million dollars

of USDT using an AMM, I'm going to get slippage. I'm probably, you know, maybe I get 995,000 out, maybe 9999,000 out. That would never happen with a bank transfer. Jay, if I send you a million dollars, you'd get a million dollars. Maybe less like a, you know, 20 $40 fee, but but you would get it on the other side. So, given that, how do you think Microsoft is going to react when they get a million dollar payment from a customer and they end up with $9.99 on the other side? It doesn't work for their business model. And so, as you read in my piece, I I wanted to share some ways that we could integrate stable coins into overall money and make sure

that when you receive a stable coin, you receive the full dollar and you can treat it like you treat the rest of the money in your life. It's really an important issue for institutional adoption and adoption in uh of stable coins in payments that are happening at scale in the sort of million-doll plus range. So we can go through some of the solutions. One really interesting one is a clearing house. Can we imagine a world where all stable coin issuers have to register their stable coins in a in a central place and guarantee that if you go to that central place, you can withdraw fiat or a different type of stable coin out at par at one:1 ratio.

Another is just better AMMs. We could imagine AMMs that concentrate liquidity even more tightly to make sure you have the least slippage possible. I think that buries a little bit of the lead like you still have some slippage which makes at some scale the enterprises will will struggle with this. Um and there's third options like what if we tokenized treasuries and said instead of um having onetoone fungeability of the uh of the stable coin you can always unwrap the stable coin turn it into a treachery and that's going to trade one to one and you could do sort of movement that way. I walked through a bunch of solutions. Mostly I'm just pointing out an open problem. Like we're all so excited about stable coin adoption. I uh I love seeing all these fintexs

onboarding and they should be on boarding because stable coins are a better way to build a fintech now. But there are questions that are outstanding for the largest institutions uh and for what's going to happen when we end up with three, five, 15, 25, 100 different stable coins. How do we make this into a usable world uh where you're not worried about having a money that's worth worth less than a dollar? Yeah. The things that stand out to me here are okay, there's great opportunities for builders because we I think from the outside it's natural to assume, oh, there's already stable coins that have that have won.

They've got a big moat. You know, you look at Te te Tether and Circle and you're thinking, okay, it's it's it's a done deal. But we're so early. And what you're saying is we actually need more infrastructure around stable coins in order to offer the same solutions that we have in traditional finance. So there's there's big opportunity there. And then also the regulation side stands out to me. And then I guess the decentralized nature of crypto kind of is opposed to some of this regulation. Where where does this all like come out? Are we are we waiting for the regulation to to to be finalized? And is that sort of the next major catalyst and the next major step here? Yeah, there's a lot there's a lot

there. I get why maybe you wouldn't want regulation in crypto. I think, you know, I I really believe in permissionless composability, but ultimately we want to have a unit of account. We want assets worth exactly $1 that are fiat reserve. We want these stable coins. And one of the best ways to do that is to have clear rules of the road for how stable coins are constructed. So, I'm really excited about the idea of of um of the genius bill going forward uh to to just allow entrepreneurs to build with sort of a clearer mind. Um I think you asked a few other questions in there um which we could get into, but I think it's the last point on this is like the

um when we talk to businesses that are considering stable coins, they bring up two topics. One is what's the the path to regulatory clarity? I'm not willing to take a risk with my business on a new payment rail. And so now we have an answer that's coming forward for that. And the second is where is the table stakes payments infrastructure? How am I going to accept a credit card? How am I going to do a chargeback if someone is fraudulently charged for something? What about a refunds? What about taxes? We we need to handle those scenarios as well.

And luckily, stable coins are more programmable. They're permissionlessly programmable. If you're an entrepreneur listening to this, please go build solutions to those problems. Like, we're so close and people are finally have woken up to the value of of a cheaper payment rail. Um, but they do still need those things answered. And so, um, that's that's one of the great big opportunities ahead of us over the next six to 12 months. You you pointed out two other issues in your article and we don't have time to go through both of them because I want to get to your investment framework. Uh but I just want to give you a chance to uh touch on either of those points whether it be the the way that stable coins are used so much in developing countries or whether you want to talk about the last point

around uh treasuries coming on chain which you talked a little bit about before. I think the Treasuries one is really interesting and uh so look we've got $260 billion dollars of stable coins outstanding about$ 1.1% of the total US money supply but they're be stable coins are better money it's a it's a more programmable more accessible it's better way to build a fintech I think stable coin volumes are really going to grow over the next year two years what happens well by far the dominant version of a stablecoin is a fiat reserve stable coin. A stablecoin that's backed by US treasuries, mostly the 90-day US Treasury. And actually, that's in

limited supply. There's about $7 trillion of stable co of of treasuries that could be used as collateral for stable coins. Then what happens when stable coins uh 10x which I think is somewhat likely uh well if that happens then stable coins and stable coin issuers are going to be responsible for 10 to 25% of outstanding T bill issuance. I I think this is a great thing to discuss with your with your friends and peers and I'd love to hear your thoughts on the matter. But there's a couple of ways uh to deal with what's ultimately going to be a lot of demand for these tea bills. One is the US can shift more of the total debt to being

into shortdated fe debt. Um, another is that uh yields go down on on treasuries because there's more demand and therefore yields are known. Um, a third is that we could have new types of stable coins. We don't have to be stuck with just fiat reserve stable coins. Fiat reserve stable coins are the easiest to understand and regulate. They're often compared to narrow banks, banks that are uh where where all assets are backed by treasuries. But uh I'm looking forward to seeing people experiment with depositbacked stable coins, CDPs like Maker and um I I want to see more ideas there.

Uh that that's a nice transition into the next question, which is your investment framework because this is this is the hardest part I find about stable coins for our audience, right? is our audience is well aware of the potential and all the numbers that we've talked about today. Uh but it's difficult to get exposure and upside to stable coins. I think a lot of us are sitting here being like, "Yeah, I'm in. I'm I'm fully believe in stable coins." And but you can't I mean, now you could go invest in Circle. Uh you can't invest in Tether. Uh you you can't a lot of what is being done with stable coins. I mean, sure, you could go invest in Stripe or one of the the traditional uh

fintexs, but there's also private, right? Oh, yeah. Right. You can't even invest in Stripe. They're That's right. So, you there's there's not a lot of opportunity. Talk to us about h how do you think about how do you break down your investment framework for stable coins? Yeah, I look I spent a ton of my time thinking about this. It's not as straightforward as I might like. the instead of talking about where specifically to invest. I just want to give sort of my framework for thinking about it. When you think about stable coins, you probably think first about the issuers. So circle and tether are two really prominent ones. Baker is another with a different strategy. And then you might think about the orchestration layer. So you might remember that in the fall uh Stripe acquired bridge for about a billion

dollars. This is one example of a um of an orchestration layer, something that helps an enterprise or a user uh use stable coins and integrate them into their workflow without dealing with, you know, the wallets and like what kind of stable coin did I get? And they simplified this. They're they're a service integrator. That's actually a Oh, and then on top of that, there's remittances and other apps that sort of use stable coins. So that's that is pretty narrowly what most people consider to be the investable world in stable coins. But I'm always encouraging people to expand their horizons a little bit. What enabled all that to be possible? Well, it's faster L1's and L2s is one of the key things that uh that made payments

possible. It wasn't until about 18 months ago with Bass and OP, although Salana had these kinds of speeds as well that we had the ability to send uh any amount of money for less than one cent. and in less than 1 second. That's a key that's a key innovation. It's enabled by better blockchains. And then at the same time, there's wallets. Um, you know, you need better wallets in order to have people custody and use stable coins. And then, of course, there's DeFi and identity. I think once you start paying people with stable coins, you realize there's a lot more that you'd want to do. You might want to take out a loan against your assets. You might want to um you might want to get yield on your assets. I think uh you might want to

know someone's name like uh you know I want I'm Sam Broner. The these kinds of coordination mechanisms are really important. And so that that sits sort of to the side of um of the app layer, the orchestration layer and the issuance layer. I think people really got to remember the blockchains enable all of this and there's a couple of services which are basically you know DeFi identity and coordination intents are another one uh that you can in that you that you probably want to use if you're using stable coin payments and so these are things that kind of come along with stable coins um it's been a big focus for us if is there a clear winner in when you bring up the L1's and the L2s is there a

clear blockchain winner in your mind for stable coins. Is it still too early? I think a lot can change because even though stable coin payment volumes are large, you know, in between Visa and AC, we have not seen traditional finance move into stable coin payments in mass yet. There's a lot a lot of room to grow. I think that uh you you should all check out Darren's piece that that you put up before Jay like Ethereum and Tron continue to dominate but there's a lot of growth on Salana Arbiter and base and so clear winner no but those five names definitely come to mind early and um of those the L2s on ETH and Salana are the

ones that offer the subsecond subscent payments and so my guess is that we'll see payment flows continue to accumulate in places with those kinds of technical offerings. Before we wrap, Sam, last question is uh where where does this all go in the in the short to medium term? So, uh you know, we're at 260 billion stable coin volume today. Uh let me let me ask you to break it down like this. When will we get regulation like not regulation, legislation, when will we get legislation finalized? Is that like days, weeks, months? And then what do you see happening in terms of adoption in the next six months, 12 months, some

sort of medium time frame? As much as I wish I was a a fortune teller, unfortunately, I don't know when the legislation is going to happen. Uh but it seems really promising and I think people realize that this is common sense legislation with clear rules of the road for how to make a safer product that's benefits the consumer or the merchant and so forth. So I feel really optimistic uh in terms of growth. I mean you check out some of my recent writing. I did a newsy post on all the fintexs that adopted stable coins in the last two months. Uh you can find just Google me basically. Um but uh we're seeing really significant institutional investment in integrating

stable coins into core enterprise flows into payments into B2B payments into uh BTOC payments into offering checkout with stable coins. Uh I'm seeing it first because I'm helping some of these companies figure out what the best tools are. Uh hopefully I know how fast these kind of businesses move. you're going to be seeing it in three, six, 12 months as they actually roll out these features. And so I think adoption is really going to grow and you're going to have a lot more places that you can spend your stable coins on a day-to-day basis. And a lot of businesses are going to shift processes to being on stable coins because they're just better than bank transfers uh intern, you know, a better way to do international payments

especially. Yeah, it feels like there's a lot happening with stable coins that we don't necessarily know about yet. I'm not sure if that's the right way to say this, but what I mean when I say that is uh like I heard from somebody who works at Google that they use stable coins to pay a lot of their staff in in foreign countries because it's easier to send them money if they're in Argentina or in these in in the developing world. And it's also better for the the team member, the staff member there because they they would rather have a US dollar denominated uh pay than have their own currency. So it just I think that it's it's one of those things where it's not getting a lot of attention, but it is

growing so rapidly and being used in again non-speculative ways, real ways. And it just feels like I guess is there is there a catalyst or a tipping point that's coming that you think could expedite and and turn the growth into even even become faster or is it we're on a consistent trend line and we're I mean we're growing a great rate don't get me wrong and we're just going to continue to grow. I'll tell you a quick anecdote. The like Stripe big company they they um are live in before stable coins they were live in 42 countries.

After stable coins right after they launched this um financial accounts product that's built on top of stable coins they're live in 160 countries. Wow. And that's because of the of how easy it is to build fintech infrastructure on top of on top of stable coins. It's really a leg up. So, as more fintexs enable these features, we're going to see this is a network effect. Uh, every fintech to offer a stable coin feature, every user to hold it, every merchant to accept it. It makes stable coins more valuable to have to save and spend because they're accepted in more places and more people are familiar with it. It's one of the ultimate network effect businesses. And so, speed up, stay the same. I'm not

sure, but the network effect is getting stronger every day, and I expect to see uh more and more businesses and people trust stable coins as a way uh yeah to to hold their money. Sam, thanks so much for joining us today. Absolute pleasure to get you on the show. Really nice to meet you, Jay. See you at Permissionless. Oh, yeah. Can't wait. Actually, I won't be there, sadly. But but my team will be there. But my team will be there. I wish I I wish I could be there. I've been at it before. It's a great conference. Uh, but uh, I got I got I got too much going on at home right now. Uh, before we wrap up, as always, I need to remind you all that none of today's episode was financial advice. I'm not your financial adviser.

Sam is not your financial adviser. You should do your own research and you should always think before you invest because investing is risky and it is difficult. And if you need any help with your investments, you want to check out the recent Milkro Pro article from this past Saturday. It is our June market pulse where we give you our outlook for what we think is going to happen in the crypto markets in June. With that, thanks for tuning in everybody. Have yourselves a wicked awesome day. We'll see you back again tomorrow. As always, if you liked today's episode, please hit subscribe and make sure you follow us so you don't miss out on the next one.

There's also a link in the description to our free 5minute daily newsletter where we simplify crypto for you while making you laugh. And if you're willing to step up your crypto investing game, we're going to also leave a link for Milk Road Pro. You get access to our portfolio where you can see exactly what we are buying. This is your number one resource to help you invest successfully in crypto. One final note, this show is for educational purposes only and nothing we say is financial advice. Investing in crypto or any asset is risky and you should never invest more than you can afford to lose. Thanks so much for listening in my friends. Have a wicked awesome