Stablecoin Deep Dive with Frax and Transak

Transcript

[Music] I'm up the [Music] [ __ ] I'm above the [Music] JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity,

the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. You said it. You finally said it. So boys, boys, I'm bullish. We're boys. [Music] [Music] How about the

[Music] I'm the mother back. High above the [Music]

mother [Music] is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys. >> We're live.

>> Boom. Boom. Happy happy Wednesday. I'm forgetting what day of the week it is. >> Wednesday indeed. >> I'm on island time. >> You're on in Hawaii. All you got is the sound of the waves. Every day is a day that ends in Y. Waves coming in, coming out. >> Yeah, pretty much. >> Pretty much. >> Out there, >> dude. My Twitter timeline is cooked, man. It's like, here we go. GameStop, $4 in credit. Um, uh, okay. Okay. Okay. Crypto stuff.

Crypto stuff. Okay. So, it's better on this computer for some reason. Oh, here we go. sequence of photos of Rosie Huntington Whitley and Jason Statham. Don't care. Like, it's so weird. It's like all these random stuff. Oh, somebody got shot uh by an ICE agent. Like, what the [ __ ] man? >> What happened to Twitter, man? Is that your for you page or is that the people you follow? >> It's the for you page. What happened to Twitter man? >> The for you page is always cooked, >> isn't it? >> Welcome back to Rollup TV. We're doing a stable coin deep dive with Sam Casmian and Sammy Start from uh Frack and Transact. Uh we're going to do FRA first, talk about some of the recent

happenings uh with the geopolitical environment, I think. Um and then get some updates on stable coins and that sort of realm and then transacts more around payments. It's a fresh uh 10:00 a.m. here in Hawaii. >> Yeah, it's about 3. >> Happy birthday to Rob >> over here in Florida. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate it. >> Happy birthday, Rob. >> Let's go. >> Oh, yeah. Um, we're gonna have some fun. Might eat some sushi tonight. Let's have a good time.

>> Sushi. >> We've got uh sushi. Uh, >> funny story actually. Last time we were in New York. Um, the sushi restaurant in town here used to be the best sushi restaurant in Florida. surprising for Gainesville, but really good sushi restaurant. By total coincidence, went to a sushi restaurant. There's a million sushi restaurants in New York. Went to a sushi ro restaurant 10 years ago. He was the sush he was wearing a Gator hat. So we say go Gators. And so he was the sushi chef at the restaurant in Gainesville 10 years ago.

>> Total coincidence. We went guy gave us a nice just was just serving up sushi >> just on the house. gave us a salad, couple sushi rolls on the house. Great guy. Shout out Jeff Miller. >> Shout out Chef Jeff upfella. >> Rosella in Soho, New York City. We will see you again, Chef Jeff. >> All right, we got about 15 minutes until our our our boy Sam comes on. Let's rip through some of the um uh latest happenings and news pieces that we wanted to cover today. Uh we're still kind of catching up on the 2026 news cycle. It feels like it's happening so fast.

>> Oh yeah. >> Um >> Twitter timeline's cooked. We got to create our own timeline. Let's uh let's see what we got running. >> Yeah, the Twitter timeline is is is pretty cooked. Um yeah, >> I don't I mean I I still feel like I haven't even caught up on 2026 news cycle yet. It's January 7th. >> Venezuela. >> This is like syllabus week in work. It's like >> Yeah. >> Feels like everyone's trying to just getting back circling up with you. You know, we'll book a call next week. >> That's a good analogy. >> Vibe.

>> That's a good analogy. >> It's silly week right now. I saw some tweet about it. >> All right. So, it's not the timeline's not entirely cooked. Leo, >> let's get something up on the show. >> All right. According to rwa.xyz, Canton blockchain has 95% market share of represented RWA's, $382 billion of assets. Sorry, just one asset. You've never heard of Canton repurchase agreements on Broadidge DLR. I'm not even going to even try to explain what is Canton. You've never heard of Canton.

It's a glorified database. Why? Presumably there are as much RWA there. You can mint whatever amount. Frankly, I'm surprised there is so little. And what are these represented RWA? Think useless. Suffice to say, this is as useless and confusing a metric as it can get. If this is what we mean by the RWA revolution, then I guess this is not what I signed up for. Working in the space, we can do better. Second to Canton is none other than the other blockchain that you've never heard of, >> dude. Yeah. I mean, this is the problem with RWAs, right? is like uh you you like there's all this push back about

tokenization and about what is even being represented and it is confusing and like it it the RWX was these guys do a good job of showing what's happening but like I if you look at this it's like how so they got 8,000 R 8693 RWAS total value is 382 billion market share 95% but yeah nobody knows like what that even is um so I'm kind of with Bartk on this one like what is Canton and like what are these RWAs and and and repurchase agreements on Broadidge DLR?

So if you scroll down I think the comments get pretty spicy here. Um actually it might be a screenshot but uh >> Canton has been obviously making a ton of partnerships. Uh they partner with DTCC uh the digital trust clearing house or not digital but the clearing house that clears 99% of stocks. Uh Sam Casmian stablecoin genius is going to be coming on and he can tell us more but we know that they are partnering with NASDAQ. They're partnering with TTC. They have all these really strong partnerships and so they've got institutional connections in the space.

But as far as like our web three cryptonative mind is just struggling to comprehend what can be doing and why they could be getting all of this adoption. I'll tell you right now my understanding is that can C canon and why a lot of these other uh institutional companies and institutions like Canton is because it's permissioned. And this is part of a trend that I anticipate will continue to evolve and develop, which is that >> the institutional incumbents where 99% of financial activity takes place right now on Wall Street, they like the idea of blockchain. They like that a lot of people are very

excited about it and people are coming on and they're they're getting engaged in their finance, but they're not going to embrace the freespirited ethos that we know and we love. These guys, they want control over the chain. They want to be able to roll it back. They want interoperability with the Black Rocks and Fidelities and Vanguards. They don't want interoperability or composability with >> Scroll, >> Scroll, and Tornado Cash. And so, we're going to see this segmentation where it's in it's open, it's interoperable, it's a big kumbaya if you have a seat at the table. And I think that is what is happening right now in the Canton

validator network as you see more you know institutions come on and they run val these super validators on Canton. You have to have a seat at the table if you want to play with the big guys and Canton is kind of setting the table right now. >> Yeah. I mean, I I think Bartekch comes from a very fundamental um technical background and very much like analyzing the ins and outs of everything and so I can understand why this grinds his gears to be honest. Uh it is a it is a it's gear grinding material right here. Uh knowing that uh the way that we count RWA I think yeah you know it it's gonna get

changed. Um, and I think that people are kind of misunderstanding the whole value prop here. And yeah, I mean, $382 billion of assets. Sorry, just one asset kind of tells it to you straight. So, Bartchk, keep fighting the good fight, man. It's all gonna it's all going to work out for you. Um, Canon's gonna Canon's gonna keep dominating, though, I think. And um, what's that? That token was looking pretty good uh for for a little while. I don't know what's what it's doing now.

>> Which one? Canton. >> Yeah, it's >> Yeah, they've had a lot of strong partnerships. I >> Yeah, >> I also I'm not an expert. I haven't dug particularly deep into Canton's architecture, but my understanding is that it's also not really a blockchain just like Providence. Like these are essentially ledgers and databases and they allow >> like imagine a piece of technology. I don't know exactly what you would call this, but imagine tokenization and smart contracts that allow you to compute over these tokens.

>> Yep. >> But it's not a blockchain. And so you kind of have this like this like interoperable set of databases and ledgers and you're kind of able to like share state a little bit and you're not, you know, you prevent double counting. >> Yeah. And you kind of have this this idea of consensus, this notion of consensus because you do have validators. >> Yep. >> But there's really >> Yeah. It's not a blockchain. >> It's not a blockchain. It's not a blockchain. >> And so we're we're going to learn more about this because I think, you know, you can fight this or you can realize that like this is the way the space is moving and >> NASDAQ DT like this thing is not going anywhere. If anything, we're going to see more and more of these neo finance

nonblockchain systems emerge. So, while Bartik does have kind of a a good take here, and I think, you know, he's calling out some important >> uh mistakes in the way that we do count TVL and RWAs and the way that we're structuring these things. It's not apples to apples like Canton versus ZK Sync is apples to oranges. >> Yeah, I agree. All right, moving on from Bartekch. Um, thank you Bartchek for your contribution to today's show from the L2B team. Um, yeah, so we we've got a pretty scary chart here. Violent attacks against crypto investors per year by severity.

Um, so the the the trend here is the blue is like the most severe possible attack and the green at the bottom is the least uh severe of the attack. So, like the way this is ranked is like the green is like um maybe somebody tries to like punch you and take your your backpack or steals your backpack or like tries to do nonviolent crime. And then the blue is like you get kidnapped and your thumbs get cut off. And then like everything in between there is uh kind of on the sliding scale. And and the scary thing is that

if you see this has only just accelerated since 2020. And the other scary thing is that the dark orange into the maroon red kind of just gets bigger since 2023. Bigger bigger bigger. And the blue gets bigger too. And so rule one of crypto prioritize OBSAC rule two of cryptoc rule one. Yeah, I mean I must say having way less like onchain and like just not having the same setup as I've had in the past after this past year ended.

I feel so much better about OPSSE and just this type of stuff. And knock on wood here. Stay stay safe guys. But yeah, this is a worries like this is a bit of a worrying chart. And you know, my take here is that well, you just got to stay, you know, you have to have OBSC, you have to obviously, you know, listen to what GSR is saying. Um, but I also like don't think it's that big of a deal because if you really look into the cases, >> yeah, >> it's freaking people that are like self-proclaimed crypto king of Ontario, Canada, that get wrecked >> or like it's the people that are like driving the Lambos and like flexing on

everybody and like or it's the people that have like scammed their way to the top and like have given people a reason to [ __ ] And then then there's the rare cases of like the Ledger CEO who probably people went after him because of all the data breaches where there's like so my thing is like there's always a reason for these people that get in trouble. It's either excessive flaunting or braggadocious behavior or they've screwed somebody over and then on the very very small side of the spectrum you've got bad luck. I only have one more I I think all that is true Andy and I I only have one more thing to add which is that the way this chart is counting attacks is is raw numbers

>> and the raw number of crypto investors has gone up year-over-year since 2020. >> Correct. Yes. >> And so I would I would have liked to see this as a relative basis. Right. Of the number of crypto investors, what proportion of them are getting attacked? M >> is that number going up or is it just we're going up and it's actually going up in in in you know relation to the number of investors that are going >> I hear you I think did a a post on that as well and he did see that it was indeed um related to the increase in crypto investor count. So >> anyway moving on from OBSC uh just a friendly reminder from us at Rollup TV

to stay safe. Um, we've got the payment scan XYZ, a new website that I've found yesterday. Um, I don't know how I didn't see this up till now, but it's showing here. I think this is like an important website in the fry >> in the Neo Finance category. So, if you think about Neo Finance, it it's pretty clear that payments is a big part of it and these neo banks. And so in this chart, what what you can see here is that yeah, EtherFi is absolutely dominating uh in terms of total payments. Then you got Cipher, Ready, um Nosis, and a couple of others. And like

the names of the people that are dominating don't really matter. The trend that we're betting on with the roll up for 2026 and beyond is that this chart is going to just continue to go hockey stick. Like the chart is absolutely flying. Like forget about who's winning. We're touching a hundred million dollar months for the first time December. Obviously Q4 is big spending. We'll see if that keeps up in uh Q1. I doubt it, but I anticipate this to just keep firing away. And so yeah, this is this is a massive part of the NEO finance thesis and and I think this is something that we had had to cover today.

>> Yeah, I like it. Let's scroll down a little bit because we do segment by chain. We've got Solana cards. We've got a comparison of top. Let's see a comparison of top cards there. Okay. And so we've sort of got this breakdown of Visa versus Mastercard as far as the provider. And then we've got, you know, what kind of cash back we're looking at. Yep. >> Um I also believe that um in the U a lot of this is outside of the US when it comes to cash back. we've still got sort of this Genius Act overhang of can we give rebates, can we give revenue back to some of these people and so I would anticipate that cash back you're going to end up seeing a lot more um I'd imagine and I you know it it takes time

to work through some of the partnerships like think about AMX right lounges perks travel hotels it takes time to work through all of those perks and work through partnerships with with each of those providers ers. So, I'd imagine that, you know, we're going to get more and more benefits as these things gain in popularity. They're going to get network effects, more perks, more partnerships is going to end up bringing more card providers and then we're going to get this flywheel. >> I also think that payments is ripe for M&A >> and so I would not be surprised if we saw some sort of merger acquisition play of some of the names that we see here.

ready right from Argent. >> Yeah. >> And and if we saw one of the major card providers merge with one of these crypto native card providers ultimately bring bringing together a more uh full stack experience. >> Yeah, I just wanted to highlight this because I thought that payment scan was pretty interesting. Um and yeah, I think this is a a site that we'll keep coming back to because I think it shows really good data. uh data dashboards on X is what the what this user's handle is. So all right guys, we're gonna get we're we're gonna get our first episode of Stabled Up 2026 >> ready to go next. So we got Sam, the founder of Fracks, ready to go in the

back. He's going to get fired up. We're going to do Stabled Up episode uh f the first episode of of 2026. I believe we're on episode 15 or 16 now. So guys, quick quick pause, quick break, and we'll be right back with Stabled Up and get firing with Sam. See you in a second. [Music] Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto. Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game.

[Music] Not your keys, not your coins. from the team that pioneered cold storage. Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io. [Music] Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link link to bridge your assets. Now, money shouldn't wait for Mondays.

Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. Call She is the world's largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xyz to start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinify gives you just that. Deposit stable coins and earn far more than the current savings rate. Infinifi is a battle tested, reliable DeFi platform that is ready to go. Head to infinifi.xyz. [Music] Holiday is unified crypto payments. Give your users more wherever they are. Go to

holiday.xyz to never write a smart contract again. [Music] Open, stable, borderless. Frack is building the next generation of stablecoin infrastructure for the digital finance era. Visit frack.com to learn more today. Yeet is built for big moments, the most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a Treasure at treasure.io. [Music] Go anywhere onchain instantly with relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to bridge your assets now.

Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. KCHI is the world's largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to kshi.com to trade today. Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Yours, private and here today. Visit near.ai to have a fully private chat experience.

[Music] Havachi is fast and private per trading secured by ZK with Celestia underneath. Go to habachi.xy XYZ to start trading today. Looking for yield that stands out? Infinifi gives you just that. Deposit. Welcome back to another episode of Stabled Up, our premiier weekly show covering the ins and outs of digital

dollars, stable coins, and the future of decentralized finance. >> Show is made possible by FRA, and FRA is powering the financial engine of the internet, powering FRXUSD and genius compliant stable coins. This is the stablecoin super cycle, made possible by FRA. Now enjoy stabled up, our weekly stable coin show. All righty, guys. Welcome back to episode 15 of Stabled Up, our weekly premier stablecoin show with our lovely friends at Frack. Today we have Sam, the CEO and co-founder of Fracks to kick us off for 2026 first episode of Stable Up. Happy New Year, Sam.

>> Happy New Year to you guys, too. Uh it's good to be back. Uh first full week of 2026 right? >> Yeah. I told I told Rob it feels like um syllabus week this week, which was like the first week when you're back in college and it's kind of like, you know, you're getting your syllabus. everyone's like circling up, you know, let's schedule a call, let's circle up. And so it's kind of getting back into the motions here. >> Yeah, definitely. And and then there's uh there's a lot of things in Q1. I think that uh people, especially us at FRA, but I'm I'm sure we're not the only ones uh that have signed these deals, exclusive deals, and they're all like, let's not go public with it, uh you know, right before Christmas and and and

stuff like that. And I think uh that really applies to the stable coin payments and uh DeFi space because even even though we have a bunch of huge stuff to roll out, I think we're not the only ones and I expect to see a lot of uh big rumblings especially from what I've been hearing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's exciting times and we've we've been thinking a lot about this even over the holidays thinking about how you know what coming into 2026 what what are some of the trends and narratives to watch out for and stable coins payments obviously are going to be a really really important part of this new uh what we're calling Neo finance which is sort of this this evolution of we're kind of like leaving behind the legacy crypto infrastructure era leaving behind legacy finance and you know

traditional banks and that sort of thing and and kind of these two things are converging in this neo bank sort of world. Stable coins payments are really important piece of that. What are some of the things that you sort of ended off 2025 on? When you're looking ahead to 26, like what are what are some of the big stroke ideas that you're excited about? Yeah, I I think 2025 was I obviously the the the genius year uh with legislation and stuff, but it was a building year for uh a lot of the industry, but us at Fracks, but also institutions that were like, "Okay, let's get something started. Let's actually uh get teams, the digital asset team, uh sign deals and things like that I think 2026 is the hockey stick year especially for uh

people institutions projects products that have laid the foundation. Um basically a lot of these things they were just getting started right and so if you look at you know the classic hockey stick chart of like startups right it's very very very slow right and it's linear and then there's like an inflection point that literally turns it exponential right and I think 2026 is the year of the exponential I think hib had this like long post uh the exponential he mainly me meant it for like the uh L1 stuff it was like a monadentric post But I think there will be a few breakouts in 2026 in the stable coin space and the NEO finance that's a

good category name uh that you guys have that um I think obviously FRA and FRAUSD will be one of those I have my eyes on a few. I think also just from in terms of partnerships that I can uh talk about like I think Stripe, Bridge and Tempo. So like we're very uh big partners with with Bridge. They're actually working on uh full orchestration uh internally with PRAUSD as well. There aren't that many stable coins that uh directly you can just do it. Usually you have to go through like USDC and USDB uh in in their systems. And so this is one of those uh and we have a really big uh use case that we're going to uh announce publicly in Q1 that I think is um no one else has uh this particular use case.

So, it'll be really exciting to um you know, highlight that once we're able to go public with it. And so, the important thing is these big integrations that finally come together with uh a few of these large companies. is we're also on on tempo building for for the uh day one uh genesis of of the chain um with their new technology and FRAUSD will be there with um flywheel uh tokconomics yield streaming um bringing that uh famous DeFi type of uh economics as well as the T- bill underlying uh reward system using Tempo's own TIP20. Uh it's actually really really cool system. um Dan Robinson and those guys over there

have uh really cooked in terms of how the the tech stack there works. So, it's a few of these things hitting uh critical mass and it's it's uh it's going to be a few projects, right? And I'm looking and I have some some opinions on uh who else it's going to be and I think by the end of Q1 people will see kind of who will will dominate the next six months. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think this like this neo finance category is like this this convergence point where legacy finance companies and cryptonative companies meet. You know, we had Mike uh Mike Novagratz uh the Galaxy CEO talking about a shift from these narrative driven tokens to business driven tokens uh with measurable value and profits.

you know, expecting this general structural transformation where wallets and exchanges may evolve into these neo bank type platforms. You know, you've got uh this kind of new super set of fintech where got these very easy to use consumer frontends, DeFi backends, business driven tokens, institutional bids for these kind of D5 blue chips with sensible value acrruel. you know, there's this focus on this persistent buybacks, financial discipline, transparency, openness. Um, and and yeah, it just seems like these stable coins, RWAs, lending, asset management, vaults, these types of categories kind of leading this this year's charge like like it it it's like this evolution of DeFi and it's really like this uh

convergence point. And I think a great example is exactly what you've said with with this or orchestration work that you guys are doing with Stripe and Bridge is again like this this kind of convergence where it's like you got this Chad Neo finance versus like the Virgin high float low FTV L1 with no kind of like you know product market fit, not a lot of use case act activity and then you've got a lot of differing opinions. Um but you know our through line this year is definitely that this general sector and there's a lot of kind of like subsectors tokenization stable coins payments vaults neo banks cards uh etc right um issuers right these all these little subsectors of this broader idea we think

is going to be the uh the biggest area of growth and interest this year um so so passing back to you with this context in mind also with your kind road map in mind. Do you have any predictions, any personal predictions for 2026, whether it be for fracks, for stable coins, or just generally like further how you see like what core themes you see really happening this year? >> Yeah, for sure. Definitely. I think that there's like two two main uh parts to it. One is I think this year is going to be the year of unification. Um and and there's multiple uh ways to describe it.

one is the economics of tokens or equity or equity like tokens whether they're buyback burns. I think uh you know putting aside the stable coin products and and and stuff for a second I think everyone uh saw you know the um a clarification governance proposals the um other things of like you know does does a token have IP and and all these things. Um, is there, you know, one token? Is there multiple like the subdow model and and all these things? Do do burns and buybacks actually work? Uh, you know, there's a lot of posts I saw that um, you know, people are like, look, everything uh, the altcoin space didn't have that as as good of a, you know, 2025 as people thought. Even the ones like Pomp and others that are like

buying back and burning, you know, millions of dollars uh, every few days. I think it's going to be the year of unification in the sense like all this stuff is going to get clarified. All this stuff is gonna um for the good tokens, right? Like for example with the the FRA token it does represent the entire intellectual property of like the FRA DAO and and all these things and we have have always said these these things and they it gets the entire uh income there there's no uh there's no uh labs entity which usually I actually described you know unis swap as an example and then they fixed it and then the major major props to unis swap in fact unification proposal and I I think I want to say that this is the year of uh a lot of important tokens that will

do well uh you know investments that will do well will have this kind of uh clarification whether they do buybacks all the time or whether the buyback or it will all be unified and clarified right and and I think those are the most important things so I'm I'm like glad that uh the a DAO is uh taking care of that um unis swap major props to them uh the good thing is with fracks we've always been very clear uh one token one vision um one mission and uh that I think that that's one of my predictions. The the best tokens will have um clarification on the product side. I actually think that there's going to be um products that are endto end which means like the the products that

actually the stable coin products that have full integration and payments in in neo banks and have use cases in the real world and have onchain uh liquidity holders and and growth. they will be the ones that have a a breakout uh and and so for example, you know, Athena is really really big onchain and I'm interested to see what they what they do offchain. for Lacfra USD. Uh we actually have a a really big partnership uh proposal going through a governance right now and I can talk about it because it's public. And so we have this unique uh risk-free yield streaming system into uh a so that lenders actually earn uh a lot more by by lending FRAUSD and then borrowers it's

cheaper because the lenders are getting more so borrowers have to pay less. And then we've done a lot of work with Mark and uh and and and the ACI uh group to make sure that FRAUSD's settings are identical to the big two USDT and USDC the the emote settings the collateral settings the reserve factor all of these things so that all things being constant which they are we we've worked with them on uh then it is objectively better this genius compatible stable coin that is redeemable is a digital dollar why wouldn't this become the the economic engine of lenders and borrowers in A.

And then obviously with A's V4 release, we're also uh discussing things um big there with them as as well. And then this is just the onchain stuff. There's a bunch of offchain things that you guys uh know that that we're working on. I think the end to end is is what is the most important. I'm really interested to see what products are endtoend. If a stable coin is just in, you know, uh, payments, but it has literally no holders, no use cases onchain, I don't think that that it's going to be a big year for them. If a stable coin is only onchain and it is only, for example, a looping stable coin or something like that, I'm not really sure if that's a hockey stick year for them in the size that it is for things that are endtoend.

And there's actually a good uh analogy that I I was just thinking of the other day with this and I know Kyle Smani hates analogies, but I think this this one is actually very apt because if you guys uh know about like Whimo and Tesla's uh FSD um I was actually looking at listening to Andre Kbotki on on a podcast and and he said uh most people don't know this but Whimo uh actually has a human in the loop there. there's a 5G connection and then they use maps and additional modules for Whimo self-driving and it is not purely se self-contained endtoend uh in and of itself and so uh if you guys saw the news a few weeks ago there was a huge power outage in SF and a bunch of these

Whimos were literally like stopped in the middle of the street because people couldn't connect the the Whimo employees couldn't connect to them or beam in and then also uh their GPS and stuff was was off but then Tesla which is entirely self-contained it's an on uh on chip on on vehicle AI chip with cameras and direct reasoning, right? There's no internet connection. It entirely is uh self-contained full loop. Um they were totally fine. And so uh I think that this is an interesting thing because Tesla built something that's scalable end to end and it's extremely valuable.

Even though it looks kind of similar to to Whimo, the the Whimo model doesn't seem to be, at least from what I understand, to be as scalable and uh it's actually much wider distance between like Tesla and Whimo than people think. And so what I was looking at is how are these stable coins actually used? Is it is it end to end from offchain, onchain, uh DeFi utility? Is there an actual uh utility in every single layer or no? Do you have to swap to USDC to like, you know, at checkout or like on Coinbase or do you have to uh swap to USDT because you it doesn't people don't accept it in the geographic region you're you're in or no is this thing fully endtoend an actual digital dollar with utility onchain offchain in

the neo banking layer and it's difficult to do right because usually you start in one place and then you have one niche and then you sort of start expanding uh and you have to expand to the right layer. Otherwise you won't uh in my prediction this year you won't get that hockey stick growth. So for me I think it's the year of unification uh when it comes to investments economics and and price action and then it's the year of endtoend scalable integrations which the neo finance layer actually solves and finally connects to the real world. Phenomenal answer. Makes a ton of sense.

And I think one way to think about this unification process and this fully endto-end model, this full stack model that you're talking about is is verticalization. And we hear a lot about this especially as we were kind of coming from this modular world kind of like encroaching upon monolithic. And so I guess FRA as an example here, does this unification, this verticalization of the stack, does this mean you guys, you know, are pursuing like a neo bank to augment the stable coin, the frack USD stable coin that you guys have? Or how how when you were looking into this and you were looking at what end-to-end use of a stable coin looks like, what did you end up finding, did you end up finding like, okay, most

of the time it is used in in any particular venue. How can we service those venues better? and and what are you guys doing to help unify the stable coin flow? >> Yeah, so as as you guys know like we have the FRANET platform which is basically a a full mint redeem virtual accounts fiat on offramp um and also virtual card compatible system. It's not meant to just you know it's not necessarily uh a UI. It's also you can integrate it with with APIs uh onchain uh transactions and and all these things. In fact, the the stack with FRAUSD is that all the collateral is Genius compatible RWA. So you can actually mint and redeem directly onchain if if your entity actually has the ability to touch RWAS. And so the

whole stack is programmable. Our view is that we want all of the top NeoANK products like we're working with Etherfi uh to actually have deep uh native FRAUSD spendable and and reward streaming. Uh and and that's something that we're we're really excited about and we'll give like uh really deep details on like how to actually spend it. Um right now like USDC is the only like deep spendable like you can you know stake and then they can pull uh get a loan to to spend but the loan is in USDC right like like you you swipe the EtherFI card uh and then like what actually is spent is uh USDC. We're working with them to actually have FRAXUSD be digital dollars that are uh the second one after USDC, right? This

uh other default so to speak. I kind of call it the third default uh money after the big two, right? After USDT and USDC, you need to actually have the the neoank utility, the integrations and other platforms and provide the actual infrastructure and utility for everyone to be able to use it. like our a integration on chain like the etherf stuff that we're rolling out the orchestration uh that we're we're going to announce soon uh with with bridge and and and a few big clients like you can't have a stable coin where you use it in one one small area in in DeFi and then if someone wants to build like a wallet or card you have to then swap it to USDC because it's not orchestrated by Stripe you know world pay and and there's no

banks for it so then really what you're doing is you're using USDC and then in this tiny, you know, single pool on in on an AMM or like a a lending pair. Uh you're using this synthetic dollar, right? There's a difference between money and uh a synthetic dollar product. And that doesn't mean synthetic dollar products are bad. They're make a lot of money, right? They uh they're a good savings or looping or like volts, but there's not going to be that many hockey stick uh digital dollars because they it requires a different set of utility and use cases on on the full stack. And so with FRAUSD, we are looking to be one of the few in my opinion the the third default so to speak and and actually PYUSD I've looked is uh is doing some

great things and um we're talking to them in in that area uh as well. So there might be a few more maybe maybe you know four defaults uh so to speak in in 2026. I've been keeping my eye really really on who is building FSD of stable coins, right? Like from a foundational perspective, who's actually building the the thing that scales, right? Instead of kind of uh taping a bunch of things together, if that makes sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh Sam, I'm curious to get your take on um th this this this product called RAIN. Uh I'm sure you know Rain that they power a lot of the crypto cards. Uh, I've heard a lot about it and and how it's so important to all these crypto cards and how people are

expecting a ton of growth there. Um, like like like could you just maybe educate us on on what what Rain what Rain's role is in kind of like this neo bank idea and like why you have to have like this like I don't know if it's like a coordination layer or it's like a a facilitation layer for spending like and like is that competitive with FERX? Do you guys work with something like that? How does that work? Uh well hopefully this answers your your question that it's actually really uh positive sum with Fracks. I have a call with Rain actually in uh an hour after this podcast is is over. Um so we love them.

Uh they're also Dragonfly Portco. Um really great technology. The way that I would I I think say is that the exciting thing about 2026 as well is that there will be a lot of new uh onofframps or bridges that essentially to the real world that never existed before, right? And those will actually bring on the next 10, 50, 100 million users into crypto through stable coins and through payments and bridge uh this bridge like basically Rain is the bridge for cards, right? Um there's other things that we're actually experimenting with like you know if if people can withdraw PYUSD or crypto from PayPal now right it's technically an instant settlement on

offramping right before everything was so clunky because you had to have centralized exchanges where you money and you convert it to crypto or stable coins and then like you withdrew it to you know your wallet or something right but now you can actually use what was in the fintech layer right like maybe you can actually use Robin Hood if you're a trader on Robin Robin Hood, you can withdraw uh Robin Hood crypto and then if you can orchestrate those withdrawals to just simply be API endpoints, right? Like let's say you trade some stocks on Robin Hood and then you want to withdraw uh FRAUSD or PYUSD, whichever, you know, they'll they end up uh and then you load it immediately onto Rancard, whether it's EtherFi, whether it's uh something that uh we co-design with them or all three of us together, right? It's a lot

of composability and and bridging to new user bases that before you had to withdraw to your bank and then you had to go from the bank to like a centralized exchange and then um now it's as simple as an as an API call. So RAIN is uh is an innovator in this area because they literally made Visa cards the onofframp uh for everything. And so we have some really cool concepts to to show them because we're connecting these different onoff ramps. Um, and so like imagine like a a card that you can load from PayPal, spend, and then withdraw to your wallet and then uh go to Robin Hood, trade, and then withdraw back all

in a very very seamless way where it becomes literally the the centerpiece of your your financial life because you can hold crypto, you can spend it, you can trade, and then you can immediately withdraw it on the spot or get a get a loan maybe through a or fraend or something like that, right? And so it's kind of like the again unification of a lot of functionality in in a single stack. >> Yeah. Yeah. I know I just heard from Hib on that, but also just been seeing more and more and realizing that all these cards are powered by it and now starting to understand a bit more of like the FRA vision as well as just the general way that the that that the space is likely to progress. And um h how important to you is like this interoperability

between different um applications or different uh kind of like consumerf facing apps, right? So you mentioned Robin Hood, you got PayPal, you know, there's things like Venmo, then obviously you've got like the MetaMasks, the Phantoms, and then like the centralized exchanges, Krakens, Coinbase, etc. Like are are you building for a world where it's like very seamless to operate across all these different you know what would have previously been been barriers or or like how is that space developing uh from your perspective a and what do you see there for this year going forward as far as these kind of different silos you know bringing composability together via stable coins you know via cards etc like how is that going to change this

Yeah, it's a good question because I I think I've always had like a stable coin maxi view of uh of this stuff, which I actually thought that like stable coins, the ones that are like USDT, USDC, um hopefully this yeard um they're actually the interoperability packet between all of these places rather than like the an intense framework or some kind of like uh bridging product. the actual economic value packet, right? Like the TCBIP packet of value is these stable coins that are able to flow between all of these places. And it's very difficult, right, to actually get stable coin uh to be money and to be accepted as a dollar on Robin Hood, on PayPal, uh at at like

at Stripe to to orchestrate with it directly, right? Um and so these things will be connected, but only through a a short uh list of real money, right? like the the whole point of the dollar is that it is literally the economic packet uh data packet right between different ledgers and the ones that will do this like value transfer between ledgers um is actually a I think in the next five five to six years is a is a multi- trillion dollar opportunity. It's it kind of um I actually think it'll be similar to how quickly Poly Market got really big because a lot of people and honestly I I'll admit me included uh kind of uh down on prediction markets

because for like you know since 2015 or 16 when uh Augur was the first Ethereum ICO uh a bunch of people tried to build prediction markets they didn't go anywhere. where it seemed like a seasonal niche of like it just pops off every time there's a really big election or like there's a World Cup or something and everyone wants to bet on like a big game or something like the Super Bowl and then you know it then it just becomes kind of irrelevant. Uh that's honestly what I thought the empirical data showed, but you know Shane and the poly market guys and then also obviously the Koshi guys taking from a different angle they just stuck to it right and then now it's bigger than anything uh you know that that anyone's ever seen in in crypto and it's probably just going to keep growing right it's going to be a

year of uh elections world cup um I think this is how it's going to be where people are going to predict oh there's you know the stable coins are going to be fragmented there's going to be like you a bunch of like white label stable coins and it's only going to be used in silos or or whatever. And it's going to be really popular to kind of dunk on uh the multi-t trillion dollar, you know, generalized money view just like how it was popular to just be like, "Yeah, prediction markets have been tried 10 times. It's not going to work ever again." Like, you know, whatever. Um but then very quickly at the inflection point, it's going to be like, "Oh, oh shit." like three or four of these these are literally going to be like you know the supply is going to be literally

above a trillion two trillion uh and I really think that being patient being methodical and being confident that that's how things are going to uh play out being long-term just like just like Shane at Poly Market uh your day will come because the arc of history bends towards uh this exact outcome and whoever's there and has been executing uh methodically this is not just us right? It's it's a a few teams, right? Uh I think that that's when something even you know bigger than poly markets overnight kind of it it it looked overnight, right? And and it like zero to nine billion or or whatever, right?

But it it was years of conviction, right? And I think that um that's this will be how it'll be. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I'd like to zoom out, guys, and just kind of think about more of like some of the regulatory happenings as well as what's happening in Venezuela and just generally like w with the the US. We've taken over Venezuela looking like we're getting Greenland. Like this is all happening. I'm not sure how it affects the Fed. We got a new Fed share coming in in May. Sam's smiling. I'm sure he's got some takes here. Apparently, we're getting crypto market structure bill voting next week, which would be huge. um as far as uh kind of getting that through. So, kind of like when we're thinking about some of the macro tailwinds here, Sam, are you more positive with regards to

stable coins than 2025 for for let's say the first half of 2026? Neutral, negative? Where are you at from the big picture here with with regards to how it affects our little industry? >> Uh I I was smiling because I was trying to think, do I do I put on my like geopolitical analyst? >> Every man wants to. >> Yeah. Right. like everyone becomes a geopolitical analyst as soon as like the Blackhawks like touch down somewhere, right? But um I I think look um >> Greenland is super fun. I'm going to I'm going to go go off a little bit and uh I I think like what's really interesting about what uh the the Trump admin is is is doing is like these things haven't been tried in this way. um like you know

it it was it used to be either regime change and nation building or just like leave them alone and like uh negotiate some treaty or something, right? Um but these guys have a totally you know different view and it's uh it'll either work really really well or it'll um it won't. And so like with Greenland actually I keep thinking like what's the point of like undermining a NATO uh ally in in Denmark and uh and why why wouldn't you just you know sign like a NATO agreement right and then I realized like maybe the whole point is like actually even more long-term you know people don't give Trump credit uh of of like you know he's like oh he's not long-term thinker and all this stuff in a world where like Europe is uh on its

own or like the US disengages and is only in the American hemisphere, right? Uh you need Greenland to be in the American sphere of influence because if the Europe is in charge of its own security or more so, right? Like these aren't, you know, black and white, but it's on a spectrum. Uh you don't want Europeans to be able to check American power in the the North Arctic, right? And I'm talking like 15 years from now. I'm not talking next year, not talking like 2030. I'm talking like 10 to 15 years from now where Europeans are remilitarized. They entirely are in charge of their own defense, right? And and the US does not have to uh shield them because they are a civilization and

and they've they've produced their own weapons. You don't want the Europeans to have uh Greenland as as a as a stationing base uh against America as a bargaining chip. Not that they're going to like attack them or anything, right? You want to take that now. And uh how that pans out, I have no idea. Um and I have no idea about Venezuela and how that pans out. But if the entire like macro economy goes the way that Trump's strategy is and they're able to lower rates and this doesn't blow up in in their uh in their face and the the US gets so sovereignty um over Greenland and some kind of like uh pact of free association, which is like kind of adding territory, not a state, uh not not full annexation, right? It's kind of

the same way that Guam and the and the Marshall Islands and uh and the Pacific theater are part of America, but they're a a sovereign country. Um if that happens with Greenland this year, if Venezuela uh ends up, you know, it just being a essentially a flawless 30 minute special ops that gets all the benefits of of regime change without all the uh problems of, you know, nation building and stuff, I I think we're going to pump. I think we're going to pump massively. Um and then that that's my view. if these things blow up in in in uh our faces and if uh there's new conflict in the Middle East or in the European theater and um you know the the rates have to be cut because things are bad that'll just cancel the rate cuts

out and and like I think we're going to have a weird year. So I think um I think it was Dave Chappelle. Uh I was actually watching something that he said and he's like look whether you agree with uh the president or not whoever's the president any time you are rooting for him because if you're uh part of the the western world you're an American uh like me and stuff you you are rooting for them to uh do what the what is right for for America. So we'll see. Uh that's that's how I think about it. >> Yeah. And then with regards to Yeah. Go. >> Well, I I don't have too much to add except for the one thing on Greenland was I I saw an interview with Steven Miller, who's, you know, part of this task force when it comes to Venezuela, helping run the country while there

isn't really a president there. And they they were asking him about Greenland. They were obviously trying to bait him into a headline um about using military force against Greenland. And then he he kind of was he turned it back. It was like like who would who would they even fight? Greenland doesn't have a military. Like I guess you'll be fighting Denmark, but you know, Sam, you make a great point when it comes to like, you know, just inking a deal with NATO, but America sort of already runs NATO itself. That is the security guarantee. So, it was sort of a catch 22. It's like, wait, you could kind of just do the same thing with Greenland.

People wouldn't be as happy about it. Maduro is a lot more um problematic as a as a leader. Uh but there isn't there's probably even less force military force in Greenland than there is in Venezuela. >> There's there's no one there. There's 70,000 people, right? Like I think the reason people are a little confused about it uh is that they you know the admin hasn't clearly uh said its real strategic reason um at least not like publicly um in in like a clear way. The goal I think from how I interpret it is that the US needs to have this for a decade later where uh the the Europeans are remilitarized and in charge of their

own security so that this is not a a European outpost, it is an American outpost and they're not going to do any kind of military like there's nothing to fight like you guys said like and and so the reason they they want this to happen is they want uh Greenland to have a vote for independence. right? Like a totally, you know, like sovereign democratic vote. And then once they're independent, they obviously don't have the means to uh have their own security. They need to have some kind of direct uh relationship, which is obviously uh they think it's going to be the United States. similar to again similar to Guam and and the Marshall Islands. These are islands that are sovereign, but they need a security guaranter that has uh security sovereignty, but the people

have representational democratic sovereignty over their their own country. And so that allows the US to not actually have to uh bargain with Europeans anymore on on Greenland. And so it's actually not about NATO. That that's what's kind of confusing because people uh are like, well, yeah, there's just you could put a put a NATO base there. In fact, they have radars and everything for the past 80 years uh since the cold war there. The point is something that is not NATO for the day after that there's a different security architecture in the European theater. That's just my armchair >> political hat. A >> and so when it comes to the more I guess um direct impact of the regulatory regime here, obviously we've got the

Genius Act passed, but it needs to be implemented still. Uh and I think you guys are waiting on that or some sort of like legal clarity as far as like implementation. And then from what I understand, next week is the big market structure bill week. Um Sam, what is going on on Capitol Hill? You know, from your people that you speak to from the FRA perspective, where are we at with the genius implementation? What should we expect from next week? What are your hopes and dreams for this market structure bill? And then how do you kind of see all this coming together for the stablecoin market?

>> Yeah, so um I'm pretty uh still in in involved in knowing the the day-to-day stuff of Genius. uh less so anymore with uh market structure um because I think that uh it's um it's important but it's not directly uh to FRA products and and I think FRAUSD uh and all these licensed you know ready to go uh genius uh compatible stable coins will be able to apply sometime this year for a uh federal license or state depending on what what they'll do that I'm pretty confident because the legislation's passed it's it's matter of uh when not if and kind of goes back to on the market structure stuff, the geopolitics, which is if the bill isn't passed by by midterms, I think that it's going to be

very very difficult for it to pass in this kind of shape or form because what's going to happen is you're going to have politics, right? The the Democrats want different priorities. For example, they're going to try to block a lot of things with Greenland or Venezuela or things like that and and they're going to be like, "Don't do this. Just sign a NATO treaty and and like, you know, don't don't do all all of this stuff." And so the Republicans will have to negotiate and give up some certain concessions that uh Democrats, you know, don't want to happen like the market structure bill the way that it is currently. And so then the odds of the things passing uh in in this way become very very low. So I uh I'm I'm watching it closely. I'm not there in in person

um or or anything anymore. Um but hopefully things get passed by midterms because then there's a you know very low chance that uh this becomes the top priority uh after that. >> And so next >> crazy >> it's crazy that you know you take concessions from some random piece of legislature as it relates to Greenland and the concession is made over on the market structure bill. It's like those two things are so disconnected yet the Republicans and Democrats they have to they there's bargaining chips and they use these things in each of these bill to negotiate but >> it's politics.

>> Yeah. But Sam, I wanted to ask you one one other thing related to this which is um this FR&T token this uh Wyoming stable coin that came out today. It kind of seems like a nothing burger. It launched on Salana. Um, do you anticipate kind of the growth of stable coins that you predicted, you know, going into the first half of 2026, this, you know, there's kind of these, uh, this synthetic dollars and then and then real, you know, digital money. Um, where does this one fall? And do you think it's poised for growth? Do you think we're going to see more states launch their own stable coins? And what would be the benefit?

>> Yeah, I was actually just looking at that earlier today with their announcement. Um I think this will be a good litmus test uh like you said whether it's a you know nothing burger or it's a it's a great example of how states should should do uh maybe their own uh digital dollar and the reason I say that is no one owns I mean obviously it's like day one but like no one owns this uh stable coin I want to see if there's any real uh use case onchain uh or even offchain outside of very narrow uh payments or things in the state of Wyoming, right? This goes back to this end to end thing where if a stable coin

exists and it's not that useful or no one holds it, you know, does it does it really like actually exist, right? Like is it actually something that that matters? And so this will be a good example of like look, this is a statebacked uh digital. It can't possibly get any more like legal and tender and safe and and whatever than than that, but does it matter? Does is is that the the main thing that uh is important? And so I think um this is a good example of it's it's really safe.

It's used in some parts of payments, but like is it going to be orchestraable in in like the global uh large payment processors like like Stripe and and World Pay and stuff or uh is it going to be on chain? um you know, is it gonna have actual holders? Because if you think about it, like if no one's holding it and no one wants to use it as a reserve asset, uh you know, for for treasury management, all this stuff, um it it almost like it doesn't exist, right? If like a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to hear it, you know, does it actually exist? Same thing here. If no one holds it, if no one's uh using it uh on on the blockchain. And so I'm not saying that's how it's going to be. I'm just saying like that's part of the fact that these

stable coins need to exist on the full loop on the full stack to to actually be useful. >> Yeah. To your earlier point about full self-driving self full stack is uh is necessary in order for everyone to see the tree, hear the tree, make sure it >> f and that's that last mile problem that a lot of these companies were trying to solve with stable coins, right? is is this like last mile to actually being spent to actually being spent in the real world and we really haven't seen much of that yet. But B just to come back to your predictions and then close out unification of token and equity one big thing that that I think we're going to see and then it's this it's this um end toend stable coin stack like it's no longer enough to just be a stable coin

in DeFi and a stable coin on centralized exchanges. you need to be in the neo banks in the payment processing in the proof of point of sale systems. You're you're really looking to create like a full um you know the furthest most non-custodial looping strategy on Pendle using Morpho and some extraneous new DeFi app all the way to like you know mom and pops like uh you know PayPal account that they're using for spending. It's like that whole stack is what we're looking to to basically replicate and create. So um yeah >> uh we are on Pendle and we will soon be uh orchestraable and uh supported by um

bridges stable coin system through stripe and so how many stable coins can can say that right like they're they're on you know pendal a and and stuff and in in payments right it's uh I think I can count it on one one hand right like less than five so that's actually a really Good good way to uh put it. Yeah, >> Sam, have a great year, man. Looking forward to your big Q1. I know that that you guys have a lot planned out. Thanks for joining us. First episode of Stable Up this year. Looking forward to keeping it going. We're we're on our way to the trillions in stable coins. I think uh we had Bondi predicted a 60% year-over-year growth this year, which would put us to about 450 billion if I'm not mistaken, is 500 billionish. Um I think that we

can go bigger. Uh, but we're on our way to a trillion, man. >> Yes, sir. Always a pleasure to be on and uh I'll I'll take I'll take your side of it. I think we can go a little bigger and also contribute to part of that with Fraxd. >> Beautiful. I love it. >> Guys, thanks for watching Stabled Up. We'll be right back. Thanks, Sam. [Music] Yeet is built for big moments. The most fun you'll ever have with your crypto.

Go to yeet.com to yeet into your next game. Not your keys, not your coins. From the team that pioneered cold storage, Treasure has just released its new wallet. Guys, if you are still using hot wallets in 2025, 2026, you are missing the entire point. Secure your coins. Get a treasure at treasure.io. [Music] Go anywhere onchain instantly with Relay.link. Relay is closing in on 10 billion transferred. Go to relay.link to

bridge your assets now. Money shouldn't wait for Mondays. Following his real upgrade, Polygon is now one of the fastest chains for stable coin transfers and payments. Visit Polygon Technology to learn more. KHI is the world's largest prediction market. You can trade on anything in all 50 states. Go to call sheet.com to trade today.

>> Talk to AI like your lawyer or your doctor or your therapist. Your >> It's uh it's kind of insane how we're talking about having this vote next week for market structure, but you know, there's another camp that's like, "Yeah, just as long as it happens before midterms." Well, that's like the implementation and like the agreement. You know what I mean? >> But if they have it, if they vote on it and they approve it next week, isn't that it? Like the rest of it sort of falls into place, >> I suppose. But I I think what's going to happen next week is like they're going to get really close and then there's going to be some red lines.

Like it's just not it's just like what I think what what what Sam's saying is that they want to get the vote done and implemented and actually like fully agreed on. Like what's going to happen is that they're going to vote next week and guarantee the Democrats are going to come up with something that that they don't approve of and they're have to go back to drawing board. And so what Sam's saying I think is that that they like basically I think this is like the first like I'm not sure if this is actually factual but I think this like one of the first votes that's actually happening because they were just passing it back and forth before even getting to a vote. So now I think it's like the first vote >> but if they vote happen >> no you think the vote is not going to

pass. No, >> but like if you get genius, right, ultimately genius did pass like there was and now you still have a majority in both the Senate and the House. >> Yeah. Yeah. But we'll see if it ends up passing. It's probably not. It's going to take many, many times. So, >> I guess I just think if it does end if they does pass the vote, then well, that's kind of all there is to it. >> Yeah. All right, let's flip into some some of the the last couple news pieces that that we wanted to cover here. Um, yeah, this is interesting, right? So, this is Neo Finance. Uh, full list of tier A tokens establish themselves in DeFi as revenue generators, yet most of

them are in red while SERs in green. By the way, what do you expect for a token which continuously breaking records month by month, generating $30 million ARR in December, trading at 14x multiple? This is obvious. 2026 would be more awesome for Maple Finance. And so you look at these these um cash cows here and I think this does a pretty good job of >> showing Neo Finance. Um but man, none of these performed well last year. I mean look at that tokens.

>> I mean 90 days I mean obviously it was a bare market for alts but I mean look at this thing. companies that are actually making money. Um, >> yeah, negative 50 to 70%. But like this is where the space is going, man. >> Yes. Um I I can also see a case where like a lot of these tokens just you know we got curve on here GMX like is pers included in this category that we believe is going to dominate 2026.

I tend to think that, you know, a lot of these a lot of these are actually going to gain adoption as they integrate with more of the institutional players and they get more institutional capital. But as far as like how that translates into a token price remains to be seen, even buybacks are not sending these tokens higher. >> No, I know. So I I think it all comes down to all this is important because if you don't have this >> really it's not going to work but I think there's a missing piece and it's friendly monetary policy.

>> Yeah, I agree with that. >> And credit creation and >> totally agree with that. >> I think that's sort of the uh I think that's the elephant in the room. That's what's holding us back. >> It is. Yeah. even from companies that are doing quite well. But these companies if the you know if we don't get friendly macro monetary policy these companies are going to gain adoption their protocols are going to do great uh but their to >> the token prices may not may not change. Yeah that's what Sant's argument was. It's interesting >> macro could flip that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. I think this is interesting. Uh these these are sorted by annualized fee revenue right. So hype maker sky jupiter a light lo arrow etc. I don't see UNI up there, >> but I just don't Yeah. I mean, some of these tokens are just cooked. Like you will not catch me buying radium like DYDX like Venus, man. It's just crazy, man. We have so many tokens.

>> Teu. >> Yeah. All right, let's move on from uh the revenue tokens here. I think this is a this is an important one to look at, but it it's hard to draw any actual conclusions from like price >> I saw fracks on there. >> Frack is generating some revenue. >> It's hard to it's hard to generate any actual conclusions from performance of tokens when Bitcoin's going down. Nothing escapes the king. >> So it's like it's the world that we live in. >> Yeah. So what do we have here? Telegram sold nearly 10% of the current circulating market cap of Ton. Yeah. in 2025.

>> Yep. It's no surprise there that the ton's gotten wrecked. >> Gotten smashed. Yeah. Got to scroll quite a bit. >> It's actually up in the last bit. But yeah, now >> I don't even see it. It used to be top 10. >> So, so what's the what's the problem here? Is that they sold a ton of their token? >> Um, yes. >> Deficiently initially developed in house of Telegram, but it's currently being developed by open source community. Durov has publicly championed the coin and then total value is 787 million compared to 1.3 billion.

Yeah. So ton so telegram sold 10% of the whole supply and made a ton of money. I mean what's the is no surprise there. >> Token is a product. >> Let's see. Keep scrolling here. >> Man all of this is so great. Why do these companies have to launch tokens >> to make money? >> It's just they're making they're like there's actually a there's actually a utility for a lot of these things. Like >> scroll down a bit more. >> A lot of so much of this just financial engineering >> 450 million in tons.

>> Yeah. >> And then then you look at the chart and you're like, hm, >> I wonder where they started selling. >> Yeah. This was year to date last year, I assume. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. The top was last summer. >> Uh yeah, I mean since 2025 it was down only. >> Oh yeah. I mean it's been I mean but again it's like how can you draw any conclusions from what's happening in the market when everything has been down only because the king's down. It's like >> the king was up for a decent chunk of 2025.

>> It was it was it was Yes. And a lot of these things still continue to go down. So I but I I also I I recognize the point that everything is sort of moving in in unison. >> Like there's not really many outliers >> to be fair during the last segment. Maple and syrup are doing quite well. They're down a little bit today, but that is one that looks particularly good. Um who did we have on yesterday? We had Sisic on. Yep. >> They're they only launched a month or two ago, but again, their token is is up since it launched, but it's few and far between. And uh >> yeah,

>> and it's tough because we talked about this last show as well, gold, silver, metals in general are up. >> Stocks, everything's like Yeah. Like there is um Yeah, there is. >> I saw an interesting >> there's more venues to speculate. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, it's like play the game, win the game. You got to choose the game >> strategically about where where there's chances to win. >> I saw Whale Panda, someone I followed since 2017, >> really prominent guy.

>> Uh and he was he was kind of doing this whole song and dances. I I find it funny when people are like, I'm going to log off Twitter. I'm not coming back. But he was kind of making the point where, you know, he was he was explaining why Bitcoin had underperformed stocks and metals uh in 2025 >> and and his reason was because there's so many paper derivatives of Bitcoin. There's actually infinite supply. >> Like you could buy IBIT or like any other per or anything. >> Exactly. and that they're not >> that actually affects Bitcoin's price.

>> It does, but it's not one to one. It's not like you buy one, you know, nominal Bitcoin worth of IBIT. >> I think that stupid, >> but I I mean >> I get what you mean, but like I think that takes dumb. >> I I don't I don't know how like what the ratio actually is. If I bought what is Bitcoin right now around 90, right? >> I is 100% backed. Like if there's a 100 million in IB, there's they have 100 million of Bitcoin. are they? But there's also like they're going out and they're conducting these transactions on the open Bitcoin market that aren't necessarily it's not one to one. It's not one to one. There's there is derivative

products of Bitcoin that people are trading and there those derivative products are not going and buying Bitcoin on the open market. I think it's like micro strategy or like um it's that stuff. It's not like the ETFs as much. It's like the miner. >> Sure. >> I agree though. Yeah. >> Sharp. >> People are looking for Bitcoin exposure and they're not going into Bitcoin. They're going to buy you can buy Sharplink or whatever it is. Yeah. Instead of ET Yeah. Yeah. I I hear you on that. >> I just found it found it a bit unique. I hadn't heard that before. All right.

What What do we got next? Just one left here. Yeah, I think that's the Toncoin one. Um, no surprise there. I I suppose >> inside crypto's $360 million self-custody empire. >> They built banks the SEC can't touch. >> Let's scroll down a little bit. What have we got here? >> Rise of neo banks. A new class of cryptonnative financial platforms is moving beyond wallets into full-fledged banking territory as onchain neo banks be onchain neo banks. huge because you could have Cash App, you could have Revolute. These guys are coming on chain.

>> Yep. This is exactly the Mike uh Mike Novagrat's thesis around we're gonna see wallets and these types of platforms move into Neoanks. >> Superform Vera Tria are no longer experimental DeFi products. Instead, they're operating self-custodial financial systems that combine yield payments and chain abstraction. Andy, you remember chain abstraction? That's what tree is doing. >> Haven't heard it to financial operating systems. >> I haven't heard of Hadn't heard of chain abstraction in a while. Shout out article. Boy, you can >> uh the shift market structural evolution in crypto finance.

>> Yep. >> Convenience and custody are no longer mutually exclusive. >> Convenience and custody. >> Yep. >> Wallets to financial operating systems. Look, we're we're betting on this. We believe this is going to continue >> 100%. 100%. This is this is this is it. I mean this is the move that's happening is like >> you can do hold, earn, spend, payments, everything in one. The the question is there's going to be so many of these like there's going to be a couple winners. >> Yep. >> It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out. >> Oh yeah.

>> Dudes and dudetss, I think we're I think we're about wrapped for today. We are just getting back into the flow of things here on the stream. Um, we have a big show on Friday. Tomorrow should be a fun show as as well. Silly week's coming to an end. Um, Transact couldn't make it today. Pull they pulled the rug from under us, but it's all good. So guys, thank you for watching. We'll be back tomorrow. Hope you guys enjoyed the SAM segment. Uh, keep your head on straight out there. And uh, it's it's Neo Finance season guys. >> It is Neo finance season. We're gonna be talking a lot more about it. So guys, go research neo finance.

Teach yourself something or come here, learn from us. We'll tell you, we'll teach you about neo finance >> tomorrow, same time. >> All right, guys. See you. [Music]