Shifting Crypto Regulation: Latest Developments and Trends

Transcript

basically so for a panel on shift and cryp crypto regulation latest developments and Trends uh please put your hands together for our moderator Victoria and we have Janna and Jan sorry about that Janna sish and Janna s yeah hello everyone how are you feeling after two intense Days full of educational and inspirational content and a great night out partying yesterday in Barcelona um I think we have the tough challenge to in the next 45 minutes to

talk about something not many of us like to talk about it's kind of like the evil thing in the room regulation um I have two amazing people here who know a lot about Reg regulation I myself uh Victoria I come from policy I have an economic background and 5 years ago after going through you know different institutions I was like no we have to rethink of how we work rethink institutions that was what got me into Dows and web free so but I give the word to my two panelists here to introduce themselves and also maybe kick it off when ask

why do you think that particularly in the last year the pace of Regulation and the talk and the intensity we feel has picked up hi good morning everyone my name is Jonna sish and I'm with a company called maow and we provide legal entity solutions for web 3 projects in the Marshall Islands and I'm also part of Bank list da I'm one of the UDS there and I'm part of FTW da which also Victoria is as well which is a venture capital Dow and do you want to give an introduction to and then answer the question okay yeah uh yeah sure uh my name is Jon and I'm regulatory counil to WX uh WX is essentially um uh crypto uh

payment company that integrates uh traditional payment rails into crypto uh we also have def5 products uh like uh noncustodial wallets uh which you can you know uh mint Bridge uh your nfts and and uh keep your asset safely uh with your own control uh it's a it's a global company working uh in different regulation uh under different regulations in us uh Europe UK uh APAC in even in Australia so and I'm responsible from uh keeping it a flat so this is pretty much where my background is and so maybe going back to the

question question why do we feel the weight of Regulation laying into this industry so much over the last couple of months um what are your thoughts and takes on that maybe I can yeah take that I think um crypto has been here almost uh over 10 years right and and the idea of blockchain and I um idea of it is even longer but why are we why we started to talk about um crypto now I think the uh as as Financial impacts of crypto is getting more severe uh now now we taking more attention from uh both Regulators policy makers even politicians um and I

think uh not only not only it's because uh we now started to create uh robust Frameworks for crypto like we have in the EU uh but also uh politicians and and policy makers starting to draw attention uh into that uh and and that's why I think it's also right time for crypto uh to to speak about regulation because I think the mass adoption and and uh an average jaw becoming uh interested in uh crypto would only come uh if if regulation U comes in this is this is the only way yeah I I agree with you and I think

also the other reason why there's so much attention on on this right now is because the opportunity is so huge and massive and that's when policy makers politicians and people around the world pay attention because right now you can see that central banks are threatened by this Sovereign nations are threatened by this and so people are paying attention and some jurisdictions are having a more of a hostile approach to this like the United States I think is a good example for a hostile approach um where they're not participating in the rule of law and proactive policym they're just going after projects and saying you know we accuse you of unregistered Securities

you're a criminal you're a criminal you have a civil case against you so this is what's happening and if you look back in in history like with mobile technology for example you know I don't it's hard to tell the mix of age range in the audience but for example text messaging was around for like 15 years before it became mainstream why is that there was a huge opportunity and mobile operators around the world noticed that and as such regulation had to be put in place the same with like location-based services with mobile technology at first that was illegal it was considered dangerous and now look at all of us we we walk around with our phone like glued to our hands and same thing regulation

had to be put in place and harmonized around the world but I think with crypto and blockchain specifically the opportunity is so massive and it it has the potential to change the way we do everything yeah banking absolutely everything and I think this is exciting and it's also scary I think to a lot of regulators because we don't yet know what we don't know and we don't yet know all of the unintended consequences so I think that's why there's so much attention on this absolutely I would even argue that like in policym you always speak about like those windows of opportunity open and with elections coming up in the US with elections coming up in the EU there are policy

Windows closing or also I think a lot of the steam in the US when I want to be like a little cynical I say like it's also triggered with like the uh intensity of the campaigning coming up right so AB absolutely there is a lot of fuss going on and you're like okay because I think when we see Regulators like Regulators are always like put together with like the bureaucrats and the institutions and the politicians and they function in different cycles and mindsets yeah and but yeah maybe before we go into like okay how who are the actual stakeholders let's think of um and you also touched on it briefly um

what's like what would you say might be is there a right balance of Regulation can there be uh I not because I'm a regulatory lawyer but also also from a personal perspective I definitely believe there is the right balance uh because yes when we're regulating a new topic we always think about okay is it going to kill Innovation or not so uh but when you when you're maybe trying too hard to not to kill the Innovation you you create flows that that uh companies like obvious um you know FTX or or or others um could find their ways around uh seen as regulated but not uh providing right

Assurance to the customers as well so I think when it comes to that there is a right balance and we are going there but this will only come with an experience you know we we we I think it's so normal to have um you know couple of incidents uh before you find the right balance uh but I think we are near nearly getting there now we have different approaches try some of them worked some of them didn't work so I think from regulatory example point of view Japan example was uh very important on FTX so among many subsidiaries of FTX Japan was so fast could confirm that all funds are safe and anyone can you know get all their assets all their funds because they had

a working solution while other uh some of the other jurisdictions that FTX was licensed couldn't so I think that was that was uh one of the good examples of how right um regulation can can uh you know help us uh going through uh that and of course I think there is yet it's yet to be uh to be developed we're not there yet but we're going there slowly uh this is my my point of view and and and maika in in Europe is uh I think a great um great step uh towards that and and probably impact the business uh and and

Industry in general uh in a you know substantial manner yeah yeah I mean I couldn't say it better myself I think there can be a balance and I I think if we look back through history that's the thing most of us have short memories but if you look throughout history in the end for the most part regulation has always harmonized ized really with Innovation and it's it's not really stifled it and I think like you were saying in the beginning maybe we make some mistakes it's not perfect but I think we have to remember that we're still in the early days like even though this has been around for 10 years even though these big dii protocol projects have you know billions and billions of

of of total value locked for example we're still very much in the early days because if you go out and walk on the street or if you ask your mother or your aunt or someone if they know about crypto for example I guarantee you that their initial reaction to the word crypto is negative right so that's like a whole other subject that I think our industry needs to address to to change the narrative and also to share examples of really practical use cases of how blockchain and crypto could help just mainstream life and I think if we focus on things like that more as opposed to to you know finding the criminals and

the Bad actors and because there'll always be criminals and Bad actors since the beginning of time and there will always be so yeah I I do think there can be harmonization and I just think it's going to take a little bit of time yeah uh maybe maybe just U the last bit to add in here the the by the nature of the crypto it can go anywhere right so if you if you push uh in one simple jurisdiction you're also pushing people to go away and we see that now companies are leaving us now we see uh even wec's investors are uh moving their uh office to Europe or or London instead of us so so by the nature there is actually a risk uh on losing uh the the opportunity

while while you're trying to to be too tight I'm not an advocate for for keeping it too light but um the I think uh that's that's where it where the you know magic will happen when we find the right balance yeah I think um you touched on one thing very concrete so regulation in a sense like it's a piece of text right let's just say it's a piece of text so how do we apply that piece of text how do we ensure that companies and projects are prepared to interpret it in the right way to be compliant with it so what do these new regulations what are

the challenges that they bring I think the biggest challenge is education making sure that people understand and I don't know if you experienced this Jonna but even I I mentioned this yesterday like 10 years ago or maybe longer now people started to just Google if their leg hurt or their ear hurt or something like this and instead of going to the doctor they would just Google Doctor the approach right right and they would decide if they would actually go to see a doctor based on what search result people are doing similar things like that right now with legal matters which I find both positive and negative because it's very

risky um but I think to answer your question about interpretation is all going to be about having educational platforms and access for people so that they can understand what these regulations are about and how they help them and what sort of guard rails they have in place and I think it's you know it's going to be the lawyers in this space that really get behind this and also all of us right like a lot of us have much more experience now on the legal side of things as opposed to like a few years ago when maybe we knew nothing about this but the current environment has sort of forced all of us to get smarter about this but my biggest

concern at the moment is that there's a lot of misinformation out there and you know the best way to address that I don't have the answers other than I know that education is always the right the right medium and then how we get that to the people is I get to be determined um yeah I think definitely um these are the most important challenges uh before you know uh before having a right attitude and and understanding of a regulation but I think we need also more people um you know involved into policym involved into uh Regulatory Compliance um because when you look at for example cla's business it actually

started from an interpretation of of a legislative piece and it was there for years and somebody looked at it and saw an opportunity said that I'm going to create a business and they just create a billion dollar business out of it so when when we look at the pieces and TXS so when we don't know the operational side when we don't know the the real practical side this text doesn't really mean anything so more people imol in the operation more more people uh understanding what is what is really the essence of um of of crypto defi or uh or any related blockchain topic if they can get more interest into uh into text I think we will create uh way way better um Solutions and and and understanding

uh out of these regulations because as it takes for a for a low who's not involved into uh into the business into the blockchain it doesn't really mean anything you know it's it's just another piece of paper but like for a new Innovative um uh area I think more people uh who has experience and and knowledge about the industry itself uh should be more interested in uh regulation to to to make it uh really meaningful for for a wider crowd yeah I think so also when applying one of the question that is like kind of like hanging over this industry right is um is it a

security and when I talk to people like even like when going out in bars or yesterday night it's like um well but you know our project we're like could we be interpreted as a security what happens if we are and why does this one question question why does this one word how many letters is it seven if I haven't got misspelled Friday morning um so why do do those seven letters matter so much I in my humble opinion I think because of what's happening in the us and what we see the SEC doing and coming after big projects I think this is putting the like in stealing the fear of

God in most of us but what I want to say here is not legal advice but is legal information and I think people shouldn't be afraid of their token being a security and I'll tell you why in some cases it it is a security and in some cases it's not but if it is a security and you're registered for example as a for-profit dow LLC just as an example there are exemptions in every jurisdiction in the world around Securities so there's the possibility to be exempt for like up to 20 million and so I think if more people knew like that little detail just as an example people would stop trying to like

hide and shoehorn themselves into a project that's not really what they're about and that's what I think people misstep and make the wrong choices and they they circumvent go going to like smart lawyers that would advise them to do otherwise but I think the biggest fear people have around being a secureity is they don't want to get in trouble and they don't want to be you know they don't want a regulator coming after them accusing them of selling unlicensed Securities because that's in a lot of jurisdictions it's a crime in some cases it's a a civil case but nobody wants to be tangled up in that and I think that's

the biggest concern and I don't know what your comments would be about Europe but I I do think in the US yes like it's it's a bit ridiculous and what we see happening on a daily basis is like they want to call everything a security yeah so yeah I mean it's such a loaded question maybe kind for before you start answering the question on security um let allow me to give you another thought I think securi is often like defined like in the text of financial law and banking law and since you're based in the UK and in the UK that was a dis week or last week um there was all this talk about like this finally like

after over a decade there is like this new banking law and it is like maybe giving an upwind to the UK so maybe you can float it in your answer uh yeah yeah sure I you know definitely agree to you it's like um being security it almost seems like okay that's a stigma but it's not it's it's actually not it's just uh something that you need to if you if your project is a security then you just need to embrace it and you just need to comply new laws uh coming with it's it's a you know there is a reason and consequences it's simple as that from my perspective but I think many big projects although they have funds although they have uh resources they're

just simply trying not uh or or trying not to be seen as security while they essentially are I think we we very well passed the the era that or or if it's on blockchain it's not security no it's not like that nobody sees it like that no regulator wants to see it like that so I think if you have resources I think being security is not really a uh a big problem for you for smaller projects I understand this uh because it it brings a lot of uh cost to to your compliance it brings a lot of cost to your uh your operations and I understand the urge to not to fall within the uh security laws which you can do that this you just need to arrange um you know to organize your um your project around that so this is

this is pretty much uh what I see about that and I definitely uh agree that it's becoming a h witch hunting uh in US uh rather than having an appropriate approach and um in the UK I think we have a very mixed um uh approach uh while the politicians are saying that oh yeah UK is going to uh UK is going to you know lead and Pioneer uh Finance in the Europe and we're going to make this and then you see a consultation paper saying that oh yeah crypto must be regulated as as gambling so I think there uh maybe maybe it's uh it's it's good to have different opinions from uh

from different uh parts of the you know policymaking process um but I'm not sure to what extent uh the the the politic uh statements will will uh effectively happen 100% as they say uh because the biggest problem around that is I think um the The Regulators or or Watchdogs uh they they press for tighter security while politicians are trying to be seen more like yes if you problem if you're having problem in the US you can come to UK we have a good experience in regulating uh complex financial instruments which they have in I think London and and and UK has the best uh

experience in you know regulating uh complex Financial structures but the the way they approach to crypto has been a little bit uh a little bit conflicting and and mixed so far we hope to see uh and we are also we also started to see more um you know sustainable approach uh on uh you know now marketing and then uh then the uh other rules about the stable coins are coming you know gradually increasing the the regulatory framework uh in a in a sustainable manner which is I think making so much sense to me in that sense yeah yeah and can I just add

something too like maybe a question to the audience is anybody here involved in a DA or want to be involved in a DA okay yes I think that on a daily basis we're all getting smarter about just everything like what's happening the technology the legal side of things and I'll give an example like in in one of the Dows that I'm involved in we had these amazing contributors that one of them pulled out from being a multisig because our Dow didn't have a legal entity and this person said hey with the case with I don't know how familiar you are with the okida case but what happened was they didn't have the appropriate legal rapper for their project and if you don't have that and

you're a group of people that come together for a common cause it could be a book club it could be it could be anything people that like a group of you that like to go walking and and then maybe you you buy water bottles for people and anytime you come together for a common purpose a group of people and there isn't a legal entity whether we like it or not in the eyes of the law you are treated as a general partnership and when that happens every single one of you and me and you and you we are all held individually liable for whatever that group does and that's a very risky proposition and so I'm starting to see more people like really amazing

brilliant people forego important roles in Dows because there isn't a legal framework in place so people are getting smarter now to ask these questions I think even like two years ago or three years like I didn't ask the question either like I it wasn't the first top of mind and so um my point there is just that I think this is going to become more and more important otherwise yeah we have brain drain from countries but we're going to have people not wanting to participate in really important projects because the proper structure isn't in place and you know there's a fear of um getting in trouble or being involved with people that we

don't really know who they are they're just somebody in a Discord server so Ju Just to add to your point like I think this is another reason why these things are so important because we talk about like inclusivity and inviting people into this space we also need to make it safe so that people want to come here so I just think that's an important Point yeah and I think the biggest uh one of the biggest concerns about the tax when when they um you know get oted in DS because the this uncertainity is keeping a lot of people away the the uh while some of the jurisdictions are moving ahead with the tax Clarity on those they will have the probably the competitive Advantage when

it comes to regulating yeah I really like what uh you were saying Jenna like and yesterday there was this talk about uh the web of trust um and you know they did experiments of like how do we trust people like that they're coming and I think when thinking about like all the regulatory develop velopments it's like in an ideal world like the regulation that we're having and how we're implying is like something that is creating trust it's creating trust for investors for consumers but also businesses in operating right so and I really liked what you said because I think it's like it's a new industry regulatory efforts

are picking up and slowly we have to figure out a way of how there we can create trust that like this piece of text that is coming out has the good intentions for the ecosystem right and and I think some jurisdiction are doing quite well or better than others but some are also hard because generally um part of uh blockchain and the philosophy is Al like our philosophy and web free is that uh trust is eroding everywhere right and those are the institutions that should give us back so would you have any so what's your viewpoint on the challenge of how this institutions can

you know recharge their battery of trust their Foundation of trust that they have been losing across industry but particularly in this industry that also in Our Roots started of like saying something has to change we need to have to rethink our systems yeah I mean that's such a good question um I don't really have the perfect answer but I would just say all of us are here because we want to see something different happen in the world maybe you know maybe some people came from working in like traditional office environments or just all different

backgrounds and I think it starts with us right like we're going to be the ones that welcome people in we're going to be the ones that you know instill that trust and then I think it's it's like I don't like to use the word hierarchy but in a way it's a hierarchy because then we're going to have to partner with legislators and we're going to have to partner with policy makers and we can't let those things happen in a vacuum otherwise we won't have the rule of law we'll just have politicians saying you're going to do this you're going to do that and we won't have any participation so I don't really have a I don't know the answer that's why I'm

here I'm I'm in search of that answer and and hoping to partner with with all of you to try to find like a welcoming space in a space that at least I feel comfortable in in a space that I feel comfortable welcoming like former colleagues friends family and people that I see are typically left out and left behind I like to include them invite them into this space because I feel I hope that it will become even more and more inclusive and have like a fertile environment for this type of uh yeah space really so I guess I put the pressure on you to answer it uh yeah

just like you I don't have the perfect answer either to be honest but um so when you when you look at what really brings the the Trust In general uh industry or regulation or a specific jurisdiction is very complex you know it could be the regulator itself it could be politicians it could be also uh some of the uh some of the you know influential uh institutions in the in the country uh when you look at the trends you know there was a trend going uh or for example registering in a a crypto exchange company in in Estonia and you know they they registered 200 countries uh sorry companies and and and then they're now delisting 170 of them

because they didn't they didn't think it through they didn't um they didn't think that that they could uh they they thought that they could manage it but they simply couldn't so I think not just having say or positioning yourself as like uh trusted uh part or jurisdiction is not enough it's it needs to be a very complex uh and couple of uh couple of other conditions could should come together in order to create this yeah yeah I think the only thing that's going to help is time right because even when you meet someone new for the first time how do you trust them and in my opinion I mean this just my opinion but it takes time you need to see like patterns of

behavior you need to see consistency you need to see people following through on their word and I you know I'm not exactly sure how that's going to apply in the context of like blockchain but I think it's similar because as long as humans are part of this whole project if you will I I think it's going to be the same and it will just take some time to to see those patterns play out really yeah I it's a tough question and I I as I said like yesterday this trust issue when listening to the talk it came up where was like okay but how could we help I think I personally want to be hopeful um Al also because I think I'm

starting to see and observing the policy and Regulatory space in crypto I'm starting to see that some of those institutions and governments that have always you know they're like we have done that always that way why should we change are starting to rethink their approaches like starting the way of how they do consultation in the UK has evolved slowly then there are countries like Hong Kong and Dubai that have announced anounced couple months ago hey we want to collaborate on that issue the Marshall Islands where you doing uh to work with meow where the

government openly invited you and said like look let's team up on this and figure out of how we can create the first framework for Dows right so I think there there is a slow change of mindset and it's really hard to break habits I mean all of us know when we are like okay in jary we were like okay this is like my New Year's resolution and then 14 days later it's like all gone so I also think it's for government a little bit of like doing that but seeing those little happenings and changes of behavior what is your view or what would you say could spark more International

collaboration and this um also maybe potential for iterative approaches that are collaborative in inviting people in so yeah uh I think I definitely agree with you some of the countries they just you know come up with um some pieces some of them are just inviting uh big companies uh we see that you know uh in Bahrain they just you know inviting binance into that and saying that just just guide us how how we going to how we going to Pioneer this um but I I think for international cooperation we we are still in the very early stages you know

we don't uh I can't see anything more than um consultation papers you know flying around uh between institutions but but I haven't seen really a good uh cooperation there are very general framework uh cooperations I think Singapore had uh recently between UK and UK had between EA on General Financial Services but I think for crypto specific ones we are still very very early I could say uh but what we see a consistent approach in some regulations which is like travel rule for example we see almost uh the same approach from different uh jurisdictions including Dubai EU UK uh because it's F uh driven

so I think uh the the the indust players like like f or uh for other International organizations they have chance to to bring that but we are not there yet yeah I I agree and I think if you look at the G7 these are the countries that are most opposing all of this right because they control the global economy they control the central banks they control the flow of means in production and they invented the Legacy rails and banking legislation that we all operate on today so I I feel like it will come over time but but it's all the other countries that are not in the G7 see this as a massive opportunity

and I find that exciting and I hope that countries like you know in the G7 eventually I I think it will come and that we'll get there but I think it's going to be smaller countries first that Embrace this opportunity because these types of opportunity come around only once every hundred years and I think the countries that have been um I'll just say haven't had such a position like in the G7 for example I think they see it as an opportunity and some countries are embracing it and doing a great job and even countries like the Marshall Islands for example we partnered with them they have a long and stored Rich history in shipping and

Maritime and Logistics Industries like one out of every five ships in the world is registered in the Marshall Islands 50 companies split between the NASDAQ and the New York Stock Exchange are registered in the Marshall Islands so it's a jurisdiction that has been around for a long time has had a long and Rich and prestigious reputation and but but the country said we also want to be a part of the new economy because you know shipping and Logistics might change 50 years from now and so I think countries like this that are a little bit more Forward Thinking and willing to take a chance on these things um I find it encouraging and I think it's a win for all of web 3 when you can get the

support of a president the cabinet and the legislators to to partner with you to help write that legislation so I'm hopeful I'm like you I'm hopeful and I agree with Jonna it's it's the early days still yeah I see on the monitor that there were a couple of questions from the audience so I would suggest we turn to that and um I just start with the top that has been upvoted um quite a bit so do you think that regular ulations could be a set could do you think that regulations could be a setback for crypto in the near future as a Time Horizon three to five years uh yeah maybe I can you know take

that uh maybe I don't know if it's right to call it a setback but uh I think we will see a consolation um you know consolidation period uh for crypto companies while we will see probably um considerably smaller projects and considerably smaller companies uh will need to merge to to to handle the costs coming with the regulation uh we we have seen similar examples uh you know some of the companies uh they stopped uh due to uh upcoming regulatory um you know uh obstacles that they couldn't be able to uh afford that basically so I think uh it will definitely Drive uh relatively

small smaller companies into um you know mergers uh or finding Solutions uh because also we know that investment is not in the best uh phase right now so uh I wouldn't call it a satb back but I think that will be a a an era that that we will see lots of merges or uh or you know coming togethers in order to uh to to afford upcoming regulatory costs yeah and I would even add I don't know what your opinion is on this but I see a lot of web3 lawyers do what's been done for over 50 years now is there's a lot of legal Arbitrage going on where

projects have several legal jurisdictions to cover all of the activities that they're doing so in my opinion my humble opinion I I think that there has always been this option and I think there will always be this option so projects that have the the funding to do these types of legal Maneuvers I think they'll do them and then the ones that don't I agree with jna like there'll be more um like rollups and and collaborations and you know mergers maybe not the word but projects will collapse or be consumed by other bigger projects yeah I wonder like maybe sticking with that just for a second uh

so setback for the industry potential as a business but or would you also argue a setback in terms of adoption of crypto because like in theory the regulation should give more security to investors and consumers right yeah uh no I I don't think in general it will be create a sback for for for adoption I think uh the the biggest challenge uh one of Regulation itself is one of the biggest challenges uh before uh the the the the master adoption my father doesn't invest in crypto unless um he understands if there is a regulation uh or or rules around that so so I think regulation itself uh is uh is a has bigger impact

than uh than you know these mergers or or smaller companies uh needing to to uh to come together to uh to cover the costs okay wonderful maybe going over to the next question that's um so Donna how can Dow secure their IP rights yeah so that's pretty straightforward so if if a DA has a legal entity and the legal entity that they choose is has legislation that covers this like for a DA LLC for example in the Marshall Islands anything that's that you would put in your operating agreement which is

really the legal framework for your project most of that comes from your dowo govern governance structure so um you would put that under the umbrella of of your like in this case a dow LLC so I see lots of dows like they all have IP they they have daps they have websites right that they're using to attract users or contributors and um I also see lots of dowo projects just have one legal umbrella and then I see ones that sort of containerize the different functions of their project like maybe the treasury is in one legal entity in the IP in the real estate or in another one and it

really just depends on the complexity of like what that project is trying to achieve um and also what type of relationships it might want to have and it might need to have with other legal entities like to run any company or project you're going to need like SAS subscriptions right like we all use Gmail and notion and calendly and all these types of tools right and we pay for them with a credit card right so if a dow wants to have these types of services to help run its project you don't want to have an individual member of the Dow paying for those things with their credit card because the obvious reason what happens if they you get into

an argument with you or they go Rogue they can just pull the plug on the whole project so like little things like this and I don't know jna if you want to comment on something else there no I think I think you pretty much covered everything you know 10 out of 10 so there is another question and I think it's also a good way to to wrap up like our conversation is like how can you guarantee that regulation and that regulation is actually representative for the ecosystem and that their representatives are represented inside the EOS system so what are and kind of like the inspirational things like how can we ensure this and make it

better so I think it it goes back to the topic that who is actually immort into policym and and regulations so if if it's uh people from the industry I think yes we can but there is no way to guarantee that I I don't think that anyone could uh but only way to to achieve this is uh real you know industry um you know individuals coming into policym coming into regulatory effective you know effectively uh responding the consultations so for example in the U uh UK we have like uh some um some groups like crypto UK or like Finance UK so we come together we

bring uh our brains together we we try to just write back uh to every consultation to to possibly affect uh any uh any upcoming regulations of course yeah so I think I think this is the only way that that we can guarantee if we ever can yeah yeah no I I would agree completely and say even if you find this topic boring uh maybe if there's a tiny piece of you that's a little interested you should get involved there's so many projects there's so many groups there's like blockchain Association in every jurisdiction in the world there's a group that you can find that participates in influencing policy and I would also add like go and find your

local representatives in government and just try and talk to them and try to make them listen because also they have to start coming into this industry and listening that's their job to listen absolutely they they will come and invite you to have a conversation with them so you should definitely do it okay I think our time is up thank you so much yeah thank you Victoria thank you thanks everyone