Is sharding the path to achieving maximum scale?

Transcript

welcome back to the rollup for another awesome conversation this time with the chief product officer of nil Foundation Obby zero we discussed the idea behind ZK sharding whether or not sharding is the next logical move to scale blockchains the idea of horizontal scaling as well as the sovereignty versus interoperability debate that has been going on in the Zeitgeist of crypto Twitter hope you guys enjoy and let's Jump Right In after a quick word from our amazing sponsors welcome aboard on our journey into the sing ity this is the endgame road map for fra and fraxel the new L2 out of the fra ecosystem that is totally based on fractal scaling fractal is a modular L2 blockchain built

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of the week unlike the salon mcoin Zeitgeist it's not Iggy or mother or Daddy it's tends to be like sovereignty interoperability scaling shared sequencing synchrony asynchronous composability So today we're going to dive into a small bit of that and also unveil nil's road map which is has been announced today so welcome in AI great to have you back thanks Andy Robie good to see you guys again yeah maybe we need Iggy to talk about charting and uh that will help like brighten up this conversation next time I think I think it would uh it would do some wonders for getting people to want to learn more about charting so maybe

there's an uh there's a line item on the on the marketing budget for celebrities talking about ZK shardy yeah I'll I'll add it to our next budget well would love to hear uh a bit more about you and your progress since we last chatted I know that was a couple months back um and yeah what have you been up to yeah well thanks for having me back on guys uh I think you guys were I mean no offense to the other podcast I've recorded but I still had a bunch of fun uh maybe the most fun with you guys last time yeah I mean since we last spoke uh we've been really just heads down uh shipping for devet which we're going to be launching at ECC I think in in a

few weeks uh maybe even in a week by the time this comes out um I mean for for starters for those who who don't know I'm I'm OB I'm Chief product officer at nil Foundation nil Foundation U we was established back in 2018 done a lot of low-level infrastructure work especially around the world of ZK built out a few products uh ZK ldm a c compiler uh zero knowledge proof Marketplace and a bunch of other libraries sort of within that world of low-level cryptography infra and uh a lot of our work is like culminating in this L2 this this L2 that we're calling nil that's based on ZK sharding which is

a new architecture for blockchains period and yeah devet is going to be like our first our first milestone in that Journey of shipping products so really excited for that nice man nice so we're gonna dive into ZK charting I think I think uh vitalic has been talking about sharding a bit um on the timeline recently amongst other things and kind of wanted to get your takes on some of this uh kind of trade-off questions that have been uh kind of circulating some of the research forms and in the Ze I and I think that we've been seeing this with regards to kind of like the way that ethereum chose to scale um with this rollup Centric road map it originally like I I kind of

thought of these rollups as like shards I I remember Rob and I back in the day maybe like 2019 2020 it was like we're g to scale ethereum out and we're going to Shard it in 64 shards each shards gonna do something and that kind of uh dissipated a what in a way but rollups kind of almost filled the Gap and so now we kind of have all these rollups and all these chains but I think like a big problem that we're constantly seeing is like this inter operability problem um and so you've kind of uh posed this as like almost a sovereignty versus interoperability on two ends of of a barbell so maybe we can kind of like set the foundation for what that means and um you know kind of what the state of that question is yeah okay great yeah

there's a lot to dig in here and I think um you're 100 you're actually 100% right in that in some ways in how you look at sharding versus rollup Centric scaling they look very similar and this was actually the point that balic made in his most one of his most recent blog posts which was you know what what is the difference between execution sharding and rollup Centric scaling and his his claim in summary was that they're exactly the same and he's not wrong but there's an asterisk in that they're exactly the same from the perspective of a theum right and from the perspective of ethereum sharding and rollups structurally look very similar

and how you have you know various shards you have various rollups they're building blocks independently they're sending them to one single chain that's where they're stored and they're verified but when you take a different view when you actually look at the view from an end user perspective or for from a developer perspective there's like very clear distinction and Divergence in how sharding and rollups feel and and this at a low level is based on the different security assump that you make in charting versus rollups the different assumptions around standardization different assumptions around do you allow for heterogeneous uh execution environments which you had mentioned versus

homogeneous uh you know Universal execution environments and all of these kind of bubble up into ease of use for the end user in that there there's very clear differences and there's two great examples to drive this point home between rollups and sharding one is cross rollup or cross Shard calls and the other is the addition of new shards or rollups so in a rollup Cent to start with the second uh Point here in a rollup Centric architecture the addition of new rollups is a manual process that developers burden right let's say you want to build an application you're concerned about congestion fees on a

main rollup we've seen that these can Spike three to you know 10 in fees just in 24 hours uh you need to spin up your own rollup and manage that INF for yourself or delegate it to you know a centralized third party to do so and you know my opinion is this is bad but putting you know the opinion aside um when you look at a sharding architecture or sharding scaling uh solution the addition of new shards so the addition of new processing power can be abstracted away the protocol itself can create new shards when loads are too high or they meet certain thresholds and this can be done through protocol level governance or it

can be done automatically with more sophisticated sort of in protocol algorithms and this allows the protocol to be sort of dynamically scalable and adapt um allowing it to adjust to congestion fees and and this is actually what you know vitalic inv visioned metallic envisioned years ago with transparent charting which was kind of like this weird Niche form of sharting that never really came to fruition but the idea was you had this invisible scaling happening behind the scenes and and this is really like a core has a really core impact on the user experience um and it's only made possible by the second point which is

how do they differ in Cross rollup calls versus cross Shard calls right and then that sharding interoperability is inherent to every new Shard that is added to the system right and this is fundamentally why sharding has this benefit of being able to abstract away the scale because I can just add new shards behind the scenes and get this horizontal scale whereas rollups when you start a new rollup the by default this is just an isolated machine right State machine it doesn't have this bakedin interoperability and there's a lot of really great teams that are working to kind of solve this problem but it doesn't come without its pitfalls why do you think vitalic chose this path

where we could have uh we could have built these algorithms to abstract away uh like adding a new Shard um so that it wasn't front-facing in manual process uh we could have had the the inherent interoperability but instead vitalic chose no we're not going to do the sharting path we're going to go the rollup path where we have less interoperability but to your to your point uh maybe more sovereignty you know why do you think why do you think vitala chose that path um versus the sharding path that he had already originally set set out uh well I'm not gonna try to answer for vitalic because um I know like and I'm not going to try to answer for like the

whole ethereum Community because it wasn't just vitalic who kind of made the decision to say okay we're going to go down like rollup Centric scaling um I mean if I were to put myself in those shoes I think it makes a lot of sense because I the important Point here with both sharding and rollups was that they're both a form of horizontal scaling right and this is 100% the step in the right direction and you see the sort of vertically scaled which are kind of traditionally called the monolithic blockchains they're now trying to go after this modular rep right and I think actually just today this is June 20th I think John Shar posted like a big article that I skim I didn't read at all

but I think pretty much what he's saying is like Hey we're all going down this modular R we're all going down some sort of some form of horizontal scaling I mean I may be putting words in his mouth but this was the spirit um and and what that means is in modularity and in shardan you're able to tap into the power of more than one machine right and this was kind of in my view the cardinal sin of blockchain design uh when it comes to you know even you know Bitcoin and ethereum and especially these programmable blockchains is that they're limited by the processing power of a single full node right so that's one single machine that you're getting used and then in modularity we said hey we're going to split we're g actually split tasks of

building a block uh between nodes right now we can have up to three full nodes right for execution settlement data availability now you guys have covered you know that there's an even you know larger space for tasks to be distributed over full but you can also go one step further right and that's that's where where we see it and that we need actually more than just the test splitting we actually need the state splitting and if we take a global State Route and we start chunking it up into substate routs and we do the we do a true truly data sharded system right where we're we're cutting this state into these partitions

we get really really great skill and we can also do it in a way where we still make use of the modularity benefits that uh you know ethereum has really pioneered with their rollup Centric scaling so in some ways It's the Best of Both Worlds right we want to get the best of both worlds um and we need both gotcha okay so in this model which you guys are are pushing basically splitting up a Merkel route or or a a state route across many partitions of of shards in a horizontal manner it brings up my mind back to a question that I had from a a a builder of a L1 who is asking me basically hey like I need to scale this L1 there's two choices I do do I make

this thing more centralized to scale faster I am fighting the laws of physics my speed of light is only so fast if I have a decentralized validator set across the world my finality can only be so fast and I need to centralize this with basically big more like either a beefier sequencer for an L2 or bigger stronger bare metal or and more centralized Tech 4 and L1 so you're saying that okay we're we're gonna split these State routs across many shards a a a small chunk of it which when combined uh has assumably not much risk of reorg but by doing so how are you able to do

that and scale and beat this tradeoff of work we can scale this but it's not getting more centralized as we scale this great yeah great question um so it it comes down to these there's two traditional scaling Frameworks for just distributed systems and they apply directly to blockchains and that's that's something that you guys are probably sick of me like you know Shilling uh but it it's horizontal versus vertical scaling and and this is actually at the root of a lot of the philos phos ophy around scaling these blockchains right in in vertical scaling you're juicing the hardware utilization of a node right and this is the path

that the high performant l1s go down or or even like just paralyzed execution this is a form of taking up more cores within a single machine right so that you can process uh an increasing uh number of transactions right um the and the trade-off here is that you have this centralization Vector right like the higher harder requirements go the fewer people can actually participate um the the other route is horizontal scaling right in where instead of increasing the hardware requirements to Infinity you simply build a protocol that allows you to distribute workloads across multiple

machines now there definitely is a tradeoff with horizontal scaling in that you have this coordination problem now right and you see this within the modular World um and this comes as a tradeoff of hey in the modular World in rollups you get a soft confirmation that your transaction was executed on the rollup and then at some later point you get like hard finality right and that happens when things are settled on da on the da layer and verified and this is that's a trade-off space that users and developers have to accept if you sort of live within this modular horizontally scaled world and there's the same with with charting

right in charting you're you're also you're splitting your state route and so now you have this this issue of a substate route here and a substate state route there and how do those two State Roots communicate with one another now the good thing is literally this is how the entire internet works like this is not anything new um we just haven't built systems for this in blockchain because we haven't had to we've actually been able to fit everything through a single full node and like Solana has shown us achieve really great performance and user experience by just juicing that Hardware utilization right and I think we're going to see that

happen in the world of rollups too you know you guys have you know spoken with the eclipse guys we're bringing the SPM and now we have mega eth and you know we're seeing people under this modular world go vertical scaling techniques to draw yeah go can I just interrupt you real quick because I I'm thinking about this analogy to Da that you mentioned and so like Celestia was able to modularize a full a full node and split up uh da into these different parts um and kind of like use different nodes for different things they have light nodes they have full nodes they have validator nodes and so they were able to horizontally scale da across these nodes is are maybe it's not exactly horizontal

scaling but is that kind of like the right framework to think like they were able to uh optimize specific nodes for specific purposes and achieve more by coordinating across those optimized nodes rather than packing everything into a a single node similarly for horizontal scaling protocols in general nil as would would be included in this you guys are able to split execution into different nodes and optimize certain nodes for certain exe for executing certain things other nodes for executing other things and then and then coordinate amongst those nodes for the greatest scale is that like an

appropriate mental model to understand this yes I I yes I think you know the point about data availability and the genius of what Celestia and others are are doing and have done is they made like a really important observation that da is a function of uh essentially verification that something happened of publishing and and that observation allowed them to say hey actually the thing that we need to scale is are are these like lines right are is this ability to you know have guarantees that something was published and something is available and we can actually vertically

scale the nodes that are actually storing this data right and and this is it's it's an interesting because like I don't actually I think that's actually like a totally different form right it's it's a it's a a a really kind of beautiful hybrid of how do you make use of vertical scale and horizontal scale um in a way that you know really focuses on what's important in in our case we also have like a similar hybrid mental model that we want to bring but you're right like the the step one for us is how do we enable horizontal scale through sharding how do we enable this ability to Simply add new shards for

execution uh in such a way that that doesn't hinder or even impose any Awareness on the developer end user right um how do we abstract away scale uh from especially this layer 2 ecosystem which you know right now we feel is it's very much scale is very much in your face right and that you have to spin up a new rollup if you want that scale yeah so so what I'm gathering is that your vision has been to take this sovereignty and interoperability like trade-off and basically just smack it in the face and try to solve this through one main Shard execution shards for individual um horizontally

shed I I almost think of them as additional rollups but they're not they're additional shards to to nil and then you have basically a enshrined interoperability protocol if you will to then to to basically bake this in what I'm drawing to is like uh things like uh Anisha and dimension which have these apps on top of them but then use like an enshrined IBC connectivity layer it's it's it's like almost similar so like what you're building is like are you looking at this as like I'm building a rollup that is horizontally scaled with the same apps on all the shards that users can use or are you

looking at this like there's a main Shard like the main chain and then there's like app chains and app shards or like how are you how are you putting that together and then any thoughts on kind of the the first point as well okay you got like a bunch of good points in here uh I think um like I I think you made a great point which is like a great selling point for for what we're doing at nil and sharting in general and ZK sharting in that cartei is your home for app specific rollups at the Forefront of developing new tools and platforms that

enhance the capabilities of blockchain Technology ctei enables application that are flexible and built to scale build on a full Linux environment and use traditional software libraries but in blockchain development go to cy. that's cy. to learn more about building your own app chain today it's like you have lots of rollups you you effectively have the power of thousands of rollups At Your Service as an application developer you just don't have to worry about it right and this is this is really the benefit now um the description of okay what is this architecture actually look like

we it's kind of neither right it's actually we have uh in any shed system right there's a few core components first you have shards right and this is you imagine you just split the global State Route into smaller chunks and each of those State Roots is maintained by a subcommittee of validators that are part of a larger set right a larger Global set and each Shard is a blockchain right or in this case we're kind of using the analogy of a rollup um now these are what we call execution shards and we refer to the subcommittee uh consensus that's happening over execution chars as local consensus right and the big trade off

here is you obviously have a smaller validator set that's executing and coming to consensus over each Shard you have if you assume the validator set is n you have and you assume the total number of shards is s you have n over s validators per Shard and but this can actually be improved and this is something unique to sharding in that you can have random sampling and shuffling and so what this means is every so often you generate a random number and you reshuffle the validator set for each of these execution shards uh such that you increase the security Properties or guarantees because you

have this Randomness Factor right and probabilistically you're able to prevent this you know malicious 51% attacks because it's very difficult it's impossible to know what is the next validator set that's going to be assigned to this Shard um now the consensus Shard which is the main Shard that you were talking about uh which is akin to like the beacon chain for ethereum or in polka dot the relay chain and also in the case of rollups sort of akin to shared sequencers and aayers and um and you know kind of to John Sharp's Point like we're all kind of building the same thing just different ways to go about it and small Nuance details um the the consensus Shard is responsible for

coordinating this you know this activity across execution shart so the random sampling and uniquely in ZK sharding the consensus shard verifies uh proofs that are being generated over all the execution shards and Aggregates them into A Single Shard or sorry into a single proof and that's the single proof that gets sent down to ethereum um and so this this use of ZK is really critical to everything that we do and you it it's it's like the proof that a ZK rollup generates um and we use it to enable this sharding that you know otherwise had these really nasty edge cases when

you used optimistic or fraud proofs which is actually how sharding began sharding started with implementations of fraud proofs and you had all of these really nasty dilemmas but with ZK like you guys have covered a bunch you get like real time instant verification you get constant uh uh verification costs right so I can pack as much computation into a single proof and it's still going to be the same as if I just pack you know a few bites of data right um or a few bits of data and so uh this allows us to actually do things that we weren't able to do in the past um and kind of take a fresh look at

these sharding architectures in a way that can be compatible and actually achieve some of the early stuff that you know ethereum had had originally put forth I I think that really helps put it into perspective um um and part of part of what like the realization that I'm making is that this is really only feasible with ZK because if you had you know some high congestion and you had in a Shard and then there was a dispute on that Shard if it was an optimistic setup and you had to do a fraud proof game that would disrupt all of the other shards if I'm not mistaken because you couldn't come to consensus in that in that scenario but

in a in a ZK world you either know that it's fraud or it's not you don't have to wait seven days for that dispute period And so you can come to consensus once you have all the ZK proofs on the consensus Shard and so I think that that's a really cool element of ZK technology that's unlocking new use cases like this type of ZK sharding um yeah just something to add there as well um I thought that the uh that the idea of local consensus is like super important from a a a global State layer perspective like I was reading this post from Stefan from one balance and talking about why do I need to tell the entire world about my my Starbucks

purchase this morning like that doesn't need to be ran through an entire Global set of nodes that can be ran through a more of a local consensus and and like what we're coming to is like like all this decentralization is very important but actually like local local consensus is actually extremely effective for a myriad of of use cases so we're really you know giving you the the benefit of the doubt here on this pod we're not grilling you as hard so those those are both really good point is there local consensus on each of these shards or does it does it depend on uh each Shard to generate like a global consensus there there is local consensus on each Shard right and I think you're 100% right like and this the Starbucks

analogy is perfect right we don't need like everyone to know that my Starbucks was done but if you are managing a global money supply eventually that Starbucks purchase needs to get back into the global view right and this is and this is like you know really this is the role that ethereum plays in our architecture in that we do all of this execution and consensus and proof generation we do it across shards we have uh an intermediary layer right the consensus Shard that does all the verification the coordination Aggregates it into a single proof and then at the end of the day it's ethereum that's the

Arbiter of truth right it's the canonical source of what is and what did not happen or what is what is true and what is false and that's like a super I mean that's like the most important role like and that's why for us ZK sharding could live as an L1 like you know and and if you look at other sharded systems you just strip away ethereum from our model and it and it looks you know similar without the ZK of course um but ethereum like we need ethereum to be the final say and we don't see that changing anytime soon right um in in fact you know we believe

it will never change right ethereum will maintain and be the most decentralized the most operationally resilient the most credibly neutral blockchain in the world and so long as that's true we're going to use it as that you know final stamp of like okay sure you did your Starbucks order like 24 hours ago but like now we're making sure that it's recorded in The Ledger right the the global Ledger yeah yeah exactly I mean that's like it's like all the all the the individual consensuses come together into nil's main consensus Shard and then we pass that main consensus down to ethereum want to just pull us out of the weeds here and look to look ahead a little bit to what you guys have coming up uh you

mentioned the dev net and some of the other cool stuff that you guys are building I know this Tech does not take a short period of time to build so maybe you want to throw the throw the road map up here we can dive in yeah love to Rob did you uh did you have something there I uh I had a uh just a small going deeper weren't you I I was I was maybe we can uh we'll go over the road map and then maybe just like riff for a few minutes at the end I'm always down take it away okay so so yeah this is uh this is the road map right and this is like a super high

level this is what to expect from nil Foundation this is the road map from nil and again you know nil is a layer two that uses ZK sharding and and we've been around for a long time and we've done a lot of different stuff and we spent a lot of time like lowlevel ZK low-level blockchain infra um and and actually last November we shared ZK sharding as like a concept but we've been building and iterating down a few different paths for this L2 for two years now and you know we went down a few paths that didn't work out but we now have essentially this road man that we feel confident in that you know we're

going to be able to have regular product releases and work towards this new architecture so uh right now is the date of recording June 20th uh at ECC we're going to be launching our devnet which is essentially v0o it's going to be the most basic functionality you could imagine as a developer one thing we didn't talk about is uh what are you know some of the the impacts of sharp starting on the developer experience right and I talked about how you're able to abstract away scaling but you know you can't always do that if you're working with systems and developer tools that weren't built for sharding or weren't built for abstracted

scaling um and so you know one of the things that we're going to be focusing on pretty much all the way through mainnet is is really nailing the developer experience and you know the call to action here is for developers who are interested did you know through devet uh we're going to be inviting sort of a select group of developers and focusing on how do we how do we build this developer experience that works for the substracted scaling Paradigm um then in Decon EC or Devcon in in November in Thailand um we're going to be launching effectively our first test net uh going to be throwing in a bunch of network

infrastructure again focus on developer experience and Tooling in the beginning of next year we'll have our ZK evm right which is sort of this core functionality that we need to go to mainnet you know we're not GNA launch mainnet if we don't have working systems uh you know of course in no shade at anybody who's done that but you know um we really are focused on building something A system that has longevity and you know we take the PIN ion and and frankly this may may hurt us but we need things to be done right from the get-go um in order for us to last you

know decades to come right we can't have this like partial sort of integrity and and sort of expect that the community is going to believe that we're going to continue to work on this so uh zkm is going to be a huge huge milestone for us in the beginning of next year and then we'll have some really cool performance testing uh in the second half uh Q3 where we're going to stress tests and hopefully break this thing um and then we'll be going to main net right and uh the path here is you know there's lots of different things that will pop you know Bubble Up um one thing that we're going to be doing throughout all is

spending a lot of time with developers hand inand that does mean we're going to keep things a little bit you know close close-knit you know and and work with folks that you know are are dedicated to working with us for the long run uh but I think it's going to reap de dividends in the long in at the end of the day right um and again we're we're trying to build something that lasts far longer than hopefully I'm alive right and uh you know this is this is just the starting point dev's dead bullish awesome man um um yeah looks sell um yeah super exciting

looking forward to the uh to each of those test Nets and uh building in that in the in the right way possible Right thinking longer term and try trying to build censorship resistant and truly decentralized Tech so hope to hope to seek a lot of this come to fruition ECC and more passing over to you rob um close out I'm gonna I'm just gonna pass it over to Obi and let let him close this out and I guess to to frame that maybe if you could uh give us a few like ideas as far as like you know how you can Inspire some Builders to build things on nil that are not possible on any other chain um what would some of the uh the ideas that come to mind be

yeah this is this is a great question um and like everybody everybody ask it I mean it's still a great question but it's like yeah what what is possible isn't possible on other chains um I'm gonna start with actually what do we want to build first and that's actually a DEX and I know that's like probably the most boring thing I could possibly say but dexes are this super critical piece of infrastructure and in a sharded World in an asynchronous world when you have the presence of asynchronicity it's probably one of the hardest things to actually build right and and what we've done is we've done a lot of research in actually

understanding okay is it possible for us to not only design a DEX but also build uh developer tooling and protocol level infrastructure to enable a DEX within a sharded environment and this is this is what I actually really want to see right and and it's the the improvements right um they'll be marginal but the fact that we're able to prove this out like as a as a point right is going to be huge and I think it's going to be a really big moment for just the industry at large of holy we've been under this like synchronous execution only constraint for in you know since since the Inception and we actually don't need

this anymore and when that happens I think we'll have this huge unlock of oh my God like we can actually like explore this new design space of like horizontal scale and sharding Within These already existing blockchain uh systems um I really love uh the the other examples are are ones that aren't aren't going to be possible long term on uh these sort of like monolithic or vertically scale or quote unquote singlefold node chains um right when you think about AI agents and we look into the future right just a couple years from now and we assume most onchain activity is happening

like facilitated through some sort of agent or is is actually being sourced from an agent they're going to be triggering transactions at rates that are like far beyond what we could ever imagine right and you already see this happening in in micro Market structures for highfrequency trading right I think the same exact thing is going to happen with AI agents and and a lot of these uh these chains that have gone like this strictly vertical scaling route they're going to start to CR and again we already kind of see this happening with you know Folks at salana building l2s um in a similar Spirit like social fi like I know social fi kind of has this stigma of like not being a

serious application category right but this is like a use case that could actually bridge the gap of mass adoption and and this bridging of a gap for Mass adoption this is what we're really focused on this is like what keeps us up at night and that we're crypto maximalists we think you know we're going to have these huge mass adoption events and eventually we're going to have like economic meaningful percent of economic GDP move on chain if you want to do that you need scale and you cannot do it through a single full mode modularity is a great step in the direct in the right direction but you need you're going to need even more than that and so when we think about what's only

possible on nil like frankly we think of pretty much anything that wants longevity as like being the thing that's possible on nil um because at some point along the adoption curve we we really reckon that most blockchains are going to start to crumble and and that we're in a similar position as and I don't this is like crazy analogy but like salana right in 2018 their whole thing was okay we need we really need to like juice Hardware utilization right we need to paralyze execution this is at a time like one year prior uh vitalic had wrote like easy paraly ability right which was how do you paralyze the evf and eth is

trading at like $100 no and no like so there was a spec at for doing this but nobody was thinking about okay what happens when uh you know single threaded execution is maxed out right and I think we're at a similar point in time with regards to sharding right it's like things it's something a lot of people have spent time on we've actually had some really good experiments and at some point in this in this next sort of like rise of adoption we're going to hit this inflection where it's like oh uh we we need something more and and that's our BET right our bet is that you know we'll be in this position to you know consume some of that some of that Demand right and if you want to build for the

long term we've got a great sort of system you know great foundation for you to do so epic yeah I got I got two quick questions to R to round this out one is uh I heard a lot about like local fee markets I'm curious if because each Shard has its own local consensus if that's something that is uh is possible on Mill 100% yeah and it's super easy right like you have you already have effective these like local fee markets I mean you you have to right you have to do things with pricing you know potentially cross Shard transactions or you could just leave it up to the market to decide right and I think uh this is actually something that uh the

shared sequencer world is spending a lot of time thinking about you know like Folks at Astra and espresso and like how do you how do you like Kickback me from rollups for cross Shar cross rollup transactions and and honestly like I'm excited to uh like learn a lot from what they're doing right like like and and and vice versa um but to your point like that's already you know that those local fee marks baked into the architecture right so it's super easy for us very cool yeah the sh sequence was like which which rollup does the Mev go to um and then and then my last question is uh because you were you were

uh like accurately saying how ethereum is like the last Arbiter of Truth when it comes to the global state route that ends up trickling down from these shards to L you know L2 down to the L1 and I just had I had to bite my tongue a little bit because I was like well Bitcoin is a pretty good Armature of Truth too it's pretty robust settlement engine if you ask me so I'm uh I'm Gonna Leave off by asking if there is a a place way way way down the road to the right of that road map that you shared where it says mainnet deploys onto Bitcoin and nil is a Bitcoin roll uper is that part of the road map um I mean I could say it's part of the RO I

mean it's like I think it's a really interesting like space and I think I'm really excited about what Stark net is gonna do and I think it's going to be a really interesting case study not just from like from a security perspective but just like a like how does the community react and like what is the actual benefit that they see on like a distribution level and like an economic activity on top of Stark net level and honestly I I don't know how that's going to play out you know you could it's definitely possible right and I think having like a trustless bridge to bitcoin is that's got to be like de facto right when you look like a few

years out um maybe even like a year out I'd be shocked if people aren't like oh there's the largest crypto asset you know there's no second best right like that's sitting right there and you're not going to have a trustless bridge if you can have a trustless bridge um but uh when it comes to like courting developers and like communities I think things can get a little dicey right like it's not like ethereum Comm ethereum ecosystem and culture is the same as Bitcoin and you know how do those mix and can you find a middle ground where you can really like speak to both of them at the same time you know we we'll see um I'm focused on shipping like shipping our

our Dev net our test net and then our our main net and uh and then we'll see as you should well thank you for for coming on it's been a pleasure and looking forward again to seeing all all these developments come to fruition awesome thank you guys really appreciate it