Season 9. Episode 3: Embracing Duality: Living Off-Grid in Modern Society

Transcript

I think right now we're looking at Argentina because of Dev Connect. They're already 10 years ahead of us as far as their adoption of crypto. So, it's kind of not logical for us to show up and say, "Hey, do this thing." When they're like, "Hey, we already did the thing." And they did the thing because their systems collapsed before ours did. We don't have any emission testing in New Mexico. There's no So, there's a trend now in New Mexico, people taking like the muffler off of their car or something like to emit like more carbon. >> You got to roll coal. Like it's a right. Have you seen this? People rolling around with these big clouds of smoke behind them. I actually think that Trump is the catalyst and that for a lot of the complacent population who was

complacent for many reasons and most of them are valid and some of them are not. seeing everything fall apart when they thought they were the chosen ones because that was their candidate and that they were part of this cult movement and now the decisions being made by that president and administration are now directly impacting them that is going to cause the revolution. So what's it like to hold a duality of living off-rid preparing for collapse and then to see it accelerating right now? [Music] Hello everyone and thanks for joining us. This is episode three of Green Pill Guest Season by Jourodal and we are

exploring accelerated transitions and today I am joined by co-host Eric Mack and his wife Joe. >> Hello. >> I'll let you all take it away. >> Hey. Uh yeah, thank thanks for having us. Um my quick intro because uh you should know me by now if you've been listening. Um yeah, co-founder with Crystal of uh Jourodow and uh journalist uh work in web 3 at consensus, senior contributor to Forbes and at our uncertainfuture.com with my lovely wife uh Joe Hannah here.

Want to say anything else about yourself? >> Hello. I am a writer, a professional writer. I um am a nature therapy guide and a yoga instructor and um also known as Eric's wife and um >> unfortunately >> I've been living off grid for um well here in New Mexico we've been living off grid for about five years now. We were homesteading in the mountains for a while at uh in the early knots late knots and also we lived off grid in Alaska as well for a few years before moving to New Mexico. So we've been doing this kind of thing for a while

now. >> Offgrid officially since like week four of of COVID lockdown like the first week of April 2020 >> at this location. >> Yeah. Well, you led perfectly into the first um question we're going to dive into, which is basically y'all's origin story. So, you kind of gave us a nice background of how long you've been living this lifestyle. So, it sounds like the New Mexico move was a big one and timed perfectly. So, walk us through how y'all came to that decision and what was the vision and then now what is the reality?

>> The move to New Mexico or to off-grid New Mexico? >> Off-grid New Mexico. Okay. Why don't you Why don't you go? >> Okay. Off-grid New Mexico. So, we I like I had mentioned, we had lived in Alaska offrid for a while there. And that's kind of out of necessity. A lot of people do that there. Um, and when we moved to New Mexico and got pregnant and we were out in the mountains and we're kind of doing more of that homestead thing. And we had like the big garden and we had our own well and we were canning and we were chopping our own wood and it was like much more independent like self-sufficient lifestyle. But when our daughter started school, we moved back into town. So it

had been years at this point since I moved to Alaska in 2000. Our daughter started school in 2012 maybe. So yeah, for a dozen years we'd been kind of like living a certain lifestyle this. So living in town was a little weird for us. And town by town, it's what 14,000 people. So, it's not a very big town, but still we were on utilities like local utilities and, you know, lived in a cult and >> and we both like come from like suburban upbringings that I think we were both kind of trying to escape and maybe said

that we would never go back to and then so uh I I remember like when like co lockdown was starting in March of 2020 and we found ourselves uh living in a culde-sac in like kind of a pseudo suburban neighborhood uh wiping down groceries with Clorox wipes. Uh you said something to me along the lines of, "I can't believe like the apocalypse is here and we're living at the end of a culde-sac. >> We're totally unprepared." Right. >> Yeah. It was sort of right. I'm from suburban New York. Eric's from suburban Colorado. And I'm not going to call myself a prepper. Like that's just a little too extreme. But I've like always had this sort of sense of like a necessity towards the possibility of you

know collapse right like I've been in collapse awareness my whole life I feel like so right when the it felt like the collapse came and we were in this it's not even the suburbs but we're like in town it was it felt like what are we doing and we just went on um what's that Craigslist and this house came up and um we came out to look at it. We brought our daughter to see cuz it really if she didn't like it, it wasn't going to happen. Um, but she was game for it. And tell talk about what what it is, what we discover, what this house was like when we first

>> You could do an entire uh podcast on like the actual like history and this like kind of strange off-grid community that we live in, but there is like multiple off-grid communities outside of TA, New Mexico. And we had actually house done a houseit out here like 15 years earlier. uh during which time I resolved that we would never live here and I would never live out here because I I didn't really I didn't really love it at the time. Uh was perhaps not mature enough. Um and so I kind of she saw the thing on Craigslist and I was like, "Okay, it kind of looks interesting." We came out I came out here very skeptical and then we looked and it was like, "Oh, wow. This could actually work." Um and uh and so a month

later we had we had purchased the place and um and the thing with this place was that it it didn't uh have anything installed. So it was just kind of a shell of a house. The house was done uh but there was no wiring, no solar panels. Uh the plumbing had not been installed, just the shell. Like none of the systems were installed. So then that became our pandemic project was uh becoming plumber, electrician and like everything else all at once to to figure out all this stuff and and install it. And uh thank God for YouTube is all I'll say.

>> That's impressive because I also um am a child of the suburbs and have had in my brain for decades now that collapse is imminent. I don't want to be unprepared for it. Yet I like when the pandemic hit, I was visiting my mom on the east coast and I was stuck in rural South Carolina. I'm like, "Oh my god, wiping off my groceries or my mom's groceries in the garage and there's there was no vision as to changing that reality." So y'all were able to see it and then change as it was happening. So talk a little bit about that initial transition like how do you go from living in town, living in community around a lot of people and then pivoting hard? I know this was partially out of necessity

because of the pandemic, but >> that must have been a difficult or maybe just um I don't know soularching transition. >> Yeah, I think it was something we knew would happen eventually, just not as quickly. And we it was always sort of a dream to own a home, like not have a mortgage or any payments, like own it outright. And I thought when I'm like 60 or something that would happen like it just seemed really far away. But I always dreamed about well if you own your own home that would free up so much of your life to just know that you're like sheltered.

Just this concept of being sheltered and not have to pay for it. And this this home was uh I believe it was $37,000. We paid for it and we the person who sold it to us >> let us pay in installments like interest free. He was just super cool guy. So it took us I don't know three years to pay it off or something like that. >> It was about a year. >> Oh a year to pay it off. And um so like that was part of the move too was like how much time and expense it was going to free up from our life. It was like that is worth the sacrifice, you know, and and not knowing what the sacrifice would be, but knowing we could handle it

because we had already lived pretty sparsely in other places and self-sufficiently in other places. Um, but it has been a lot of work. How what do you think has it is it worth it all the work that it's been? And is it a sacrifice, would you say, or >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I think like num numbers wise, um, like when we were making the decision to to buy the place again, first month of COVID and like it it was really like because we like, you know, pretty much liquidated our savings and uh uh said goodbye to a lot of crypto at the time and uh and we had no idea if it was going to be like is if

the world is ending, is that a good time to buy real estate or like the worst time imaginable? We didn't really know. And our our first experience buying a house we bought in like the summer of 2007, like right before that market crash. So like literally at the time I'm like, "Oh, cool. We bought a house at the worst time in modern history." Um and uh so so we didn't know it. It turned and it turned out to be the best decision ever because like like many other rural towns, especially in the west, uh you know, we're also a ski town. like I think like I don't know 90 95% of the world seem to have moved here during the summer of 2020. Uh and and the housing costs are crazy just like there in Colorado. Um so I mean you know

we figure like what we saved on on paying rent like has paid for the cost of the house in five years like three times over. Um >> and I want to add to when you said our first home. So, our first home was in the mountains of New Mexico when we were out like home doing our little homestead thing. And after that debacle, we decided we would never do a mortgage again. We were like so burnt on the idea of mortgages. They were like the worst idea ever. Why would anyone do that? Like people are just buying into this scheme, you know? It's a total scheme.

So, it had to be the way it was. like it had to be something that we could just like pay out of pocket for. And out here on this in this area, this off-grid area, you can't get a mortgage anyway from the bank because they they won't ensure the title to land out here. So, um, part of the reason why it's affordable is because people selling the houses know that people can't get bank loans, that you're going to have to pay in cash for it, too. Mhm. >> So, there's like a nonzero chance like always say that like somebody could show up. Uh again, it's a long story, but basically we had we had a lawyer do a title search on this property before we bought it and he's like, "Well, you know, uh it's as if your property

magically springs into existence in 1960." Um so, there's some missing documents somewhere along the way. And the same goes for a lot of this neighborhood. Yeah. That's part of why it's so cheap in addition to being off-rid. So there's like a non-zero chance that somebody shows up with like a a deed or a title from 1915 or something and is like I actually own this entire county. Uh so there's like there is that non-zero chance that maybe one day this entire community disappears to some land baron. Um so that's the fact that okay well if that happens that like you know.1% chance at least we we know that we uh we can justify it by saying well we we saved you know tens of thousands in rent that we would have

otherwise saved. So that's it's kind of the the mind games we have to play. >> Hopefully that won't happen because we just added an extension to the house. Well, and luckily we're journalists by, you know, train training, so we could also just blast that all over the place and then rally people to support y'all. Yeah, I feel like that >> get us grandfathered in or something. >> Exactly. Feels like that thing. >> Grandmotherred. >> Grandparented. >> We all need to be grandparented right now. So, what's it like to hold a duality of living off grid, preparing for collapse, and then to see it accelerating right now? like not directly by a cause like out of our control. Like when I think about or when

I used to think about collapse, I thought, you know, the Hollywood version of an apocalypse, like there would be a giant whatever um environmental event most likely that would cause everything to change overnight. What we're living through is like a dumb apocalypse. It's basically just some oligarchs and politicians just living out whatever fantasy they have in their minds. So, what is it like to to to live in this now? Like holding the space that you're holding, this duality of you've already prepared for it. You know, it's inevitable and yet it's happening because of choices that humans are making, not choices because of, you know, the decisions we

made decades ago that impacted the environment. I don't know how prepared we actually are. You know, we're still we're still going to the grocery store and like we're still heating like largely with forms of heat that we we have to buy like to be like it it's not it's not true to say we're like completely >> we could be self-sufficient. It's like >> we could loot towards that like we did the extension now has an indoor greenhouse so we could grow more and year round. I mean, we could build it up, but I think that speaks to like the need for community and like how those needs that we can't fulfill our own on our own that we have resources of other people that we can lean on to help and that we can be a resource to other

people. I think that's like what we need to move towards. So, like away from this old idea of homesteading as being like you're so totally self-sufficient to like a new model of like community efficient, you know, being able to have different resources around us to be able to do that. But I like what you brought up about like the the fact I like I think our brains and like how we we see the world is is kind of ruined by Hollywood and like yeah we we imagine everything happens like a sci-fi movie where like the plot unfolds in the span of 90 minutes and you know everything like happens overnight and like in reality like that it it's not like that and I and I think there's like

I actually started to think like we talked about this concept of um collapse as like it's this thing that's that's right around the corner and like we're we're preparing for it. Um, I've kind of begun to think like actually we we've been living it for uh I think at least 10 like maybe maybe 20 years. Like I think the first like the first sign, you know, there's there there's like whatever you this is an endless conversation. We can talk about like going off the gold standard in the 70s and like China and Nixon like you can go like that far back but like in reality there's like it feels like there's a concrete marker where like like oh there were there were like intelligence failures that led to 911 and then like

Katrina happened and like our systems like did not do a good job of of protecting and providing for people after you know a major disaster in New Orleans and then from and it was kind of like a a string of things ever since then 2008 collapse um everything that's happened since 2015 with like our our politics and it's kind of like masked by the fact that at the same time we're like building this like crazy technological utopia and like I think >> like we've talked about this before like again it's not like the movies it's like dystopia happens and exists like alongside utopia like we have an we have an we have an opioid epidemic happening at the same time that like You know, you

can have drones delivering stuff to your from Amazon. Like this is these things are happen at the same time. So like collapse. Yeah. Like maybe maybe we're on the tail end of it actually. Like that's actually kind of the optimistic. It would be nice. >> We got five or 10 years left. But >> I can make it through five or 10. Like that I can do. And our generation has lived through so much of this. Like I think our entire adult lives have been spent transitioning in and out of different types of collabs. >> Yeah. Totally. What do What do you think about about about collabs? because I we kind of like talk around this a lot in our in our chats and like I think I have an idea of where you're at but I don't know if I've ever actually explicitly asked you.

>> I feel like I float between so you know the dramatic side of me loves a good story and the apocalypse there's many ways that I've you know fleshed that one out but the slow version is more of me trying not to me trying to balance bypassing like am I bypassing reality right now? Is that good or bad? And then what am I doing to protect myself? Because I live in an apartment by myself with a dog. Like I've got enough toilet paper for the summer. But other than that, and enough rice for all my neighbors, but other than that, like then then we have to shift into a community like like Joanna is saying, but I I don't know. I feel like we're about to find out like we are I feel like we are pretty far into a transition

and collapse and with what the government's doing now with just outright eliminating things like FEMA and defunding so many things we're about to really see it whereas before it was just it still was not functioning from a bureaucratic perspective but it still you know agencies like FEMA still could provide some of the social safety net but now we've just ripped the band-aid off and said we're not going to do that anymore as a societ society. So, I feel like the next few years of whatever, you know, calamities happen, because they happen, we're humans.

>> Um, I feel like that's going to be much more apparent now, whereas before we could have band-aids over everything. >> Like, you could be in collapse yet still go to the grocery store and get eggs from some organic farm across the country. You know, I could still have my groceries sent to the door if I want. I think that we're about to see a lot of those things fall apart that people are used to and that so many people have bypassed reality that's going to be really hard for people that don't think of these things. And that's most of I think our society. I feel like we're in the minority where we actually do think about what happens when systems collapse. Um, and we're community people, so I feel like, you know, we at least have that to fall back on, too. that America is such

an isolated society that >> you know we've eliminated a lot of community. Yeah. I love that idea of band-aids. Like we're always putting band-aids on it. Like I personally think the collapse is just sort of a long drawn out just systematic it's going to be going on for a long time. Like what I perceive as the collapse has is basically based around oil. I think like our entire infrastructure and world is based on oil which is this limited resource and we keep relying on tech to kind of like improve our ability to get oil and more oil even though the it's getting harder to get and more expensive to get and eventually it's going to run out. And to me like the oligarchs

they're just I don't know trying to get like the last drags of the oil money that they can. It's like and then on top of that this our the our dependency on oil is also creating obviously this climate emergency. So so while we're while our infrastructure is going to slowly collapse because of a lack of oil unless we can come up with a better or newer energy source that doesn't exist yet. Meanwhile, that energy source is also collapsing our entire climate and making things worse for us. So, we're talking about

>> feedback, >> oceans rising and yeah, bad feedback with wildfires and droughts. And so, it's like it just seems like an inevitable like everything's just gonna slowly go downhill, right? And how many band-aids can we keep putting on it? And then when we have um governments that don't want to even bother with the band-aid, then it's like, well, what does that look like? Like right now, I was just complaining, our health care system is so bad right now since um the pandemic. It's gotten so much worse. It's all understaffed. It's like you have to book so far out. It's like we all the things people complained about in a socialist health care system, we basically have

now anyway. It's like it doesn't even matter. So, I like what you said about the band-aid. It's like how many band-aids can you keep putting on before people are going to realize something's wrong and there's no more band-aids left to put on it. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think too, and we work with this a lot in our ecosystem, um just the economic systems we function in, like latestage capitalism, it's just not it doesn't work. It is brutal and it it amplifies everything you just said with, you know, with oil, with the end of energy, what what that energy transition looks like. And when you have oligarchs that are in charge of the monetary systems, then that change is very difficult to implement, which is why I love it's why I tolerate being in

crypto this long is because I know an alternative economic system exists because I've seen it >> and I prior to crypto, I really love studying alternative economics. in other types of contexts. And I see crypto as being one of those things. Um, you know, whatever your chain is that you use, if you have a community, you can create your own currency. You can create create a value exchange. And knowing those things exist at least helps me sleep at night. And especially like in this area, I know I could go find food and go to a farmers market and exchange in probably Ethereum and it wouldn't be an issue.

There's enough people that use it and also know how to teach it. So I feel like these circular economies are going to be more of a conversation where we're talking talking about this value exchange that's holistic where you can do things in the gift economy or you can do things that keep the money in your community. So in you know in a hypothetical situation where an economic system does collapse, there's still infrastructure to work with. and on my very long to-do list and and soon as we get this uh this construction project done, one of the first things that's going up on the roof is uh some uh helium antennas that I got from our our neighbor and and our friend Sven. Shout

out to shout out to Sven and then sent it uh and and Helium is you know a decentralized uh peer-to-peer 5G network. And so like you know that is that is one thing that uh you know we're we our solar power is decentralized. It's really you know we're we're kind of a self- sustaining node I suppose. Um and then um that's kind of you know we're we're kind of self uh sufficient on on water when it rains enough but it would be it would be very cool to be able to add more self-sustained and decentralized internet to that. So like yeah like infrastructure projects like that that don't really get uh enough attention and and Helium kind of seems like it's on the upswing. It's not one

of those that kind of died after um the ICO craze or FTX or or whatever. It's it's still around and actually growing. So, like, yeah, it's projects like that that are are are super exciting and I think are are the future and where we're we're hoping to take it and it's going to uh and again, it's not like a Hollywood movie. Like I remember like like with technology, it's really funny like forever we were like like you'd watch like Back to the Future, right, with Michael J. Fox, the original, and it would be like, "Oh, wow. They're like they're doing like video calls and they're like talking to the TV and and uh they have like electric cars and stuff." And like I remember thinking like forever through childhood and through like the early 2000s, it's like when is any of that stuff ever going to

show up? Like when am I finally going to get like a TV that I can talk to? And that but it like it sneaks up on you because then it's like I just remember one day in like 2005 it's like oh everyone's doing Skype now. and it was just it kind of like snuck in through the back door of like the internet browser and and apps and it's like the these things like slowly creep into our lives. I think the same thing I think the same thing is going to happen with Ethereum. Uh that like one day people are just going to be using stuff and things are going to be settling on Ethereum and like you're you're not even going to nope. It's just going to be quiet working quietly in the background.

>> Yeah. And we have to get like our farmers like you were saying going to the farmers market and using Ethereum. You got to get the farmers and the plumbers and the skilled laborers on board with that because it is it is a great system to have a localized currency. Um but we still we can't eat it. So we so it's we haven't figured out how to eat it yet. food total. So like how do right so how do you integrate it into u the the culture so that it can fulfill like your basic needs can be fulfilled by that >> you just need to be able to metabolize electrons we're working on it >> vibe coding too right

>> network out there in the off- grid well and you brought up a great point Joanna like this is something we work on at Ethereum localism and some of these local movements is we at GEL and Boulder This year we had local farmers that that are already on blockchain. I think one of our local farms already uses Bitcoin. So they showed up and wanted to know more about Ethereum and then how they could incorporate that into their farm because it's a community farm. They have a co-work space there of Yellow Barn and they're just big on sovereignty and it's that independence is what they're trying to cultivate and they'll use whatever system works best for that. And I feel like that's where Ethereum localism in the US is really fascinating because Oakland did this a few years ago with

their farmers market. They had a lot of Ethereum users go to the farmers market and get the whole farmers market and their art culture on chain so that people could go there and have a vibrant ecosystem that stayed local. The money stayed within their local system. But when we look at I think right now we're looking at Argentina because of depth connect and trying to take G-Fill there >> but they're already 10 years ahead of us as far as their adoption of crypto. So it's kind of not logical for us to show up and say hey do this thing when they're like hey we already did the thing and they did the thing because their systems collapsed before ours did.

So, I feel like we're in this weird space where we can go learn this stuff from other countries and communities that have already gone through it and have come out on the other side, which I think is going to be really fascinating because we're still, you know, slapping our band-aids on everything. So >> yeah, there's a little bit of a a mis a geographic mismatch within the Ethereum community it seems like where like so much of the like engineering talent and kind of like the the the brain talent is coming out of uh Europe and the United States and Canada. Um whereas like the the need for the use cases and like honestly like the really like cool interesting projects where you're like oh wow that's like that is it that is a

real world use case that is a real world application like it's happening in like Argentina um and Africa and places where like you know um I guess I was going to say mother is the necessity of invention but that doesn't really fit because the invention is still kind of largely happening in the most developed countries but uh so necessity is the mother of adoption I guess is the real thing. So like >> you know and and I think like geo and and like Ethereum localism movement is going a long way towards trying to to to bridge that gap but uh I wish we could get there faster. You see more of that than I do.

>> Yeah. I I wish we could accelerate it. And I've seen this environmental movements across the US and and some in the West, not so much in Europe. Um, but just the performative aspect of it, which is kind of why I've avoided a lot of these movements, um, in general is because it becomes such a performative thing because in our country, we technically haven't had to go through what it means when a system collapses in your community. Whereas like when I look at um, you know, my colleagues in Africa, they don't you don't have to explain community to them. they that literally is part of how their entire continent has survived this long is through community and that that is at the core of everything. So when you put the technology in their hands, they immediately begin finding real world use

cases to solve problems in their backyard and they don't need any of us to come in and say, "Hey, try it this way." They're like, "No, no, no. We already got this. Um just, you know, give us more funding so we can keep doing this thing and show y'all how it's done." So, I feel like um as the band-aids fall off, we're going to find ourselves in those positions where we have to look to the global south to see how they've already done it and that we can take from them. Like, I kind of want to flip the model on its head instead of exporting our systems to other countries. creating listening nodes where we go to other places and listen to how they've incorporated not just blockchain and crypto but all of the different ecosystem tools for sustainability and for self-sufficiency

and sovereignty. Like that is going to be a very interesting um flip of the narrative here very soon. >> Yeah. I wish I wish there was more um you know because where we live is actually like a really like high high poverty area, high high need area and uh it it's like so ripe for for like uh you know blockchain adoption or like some sort of um community currency, but um I don't know the the the UX is not still doesn't feel like it's it's quite there.

And also like I I don't know like the the trust isn't quite there. Like if I walk up to if I were to like go to a meeting with my neighbors and like you know tell them like oh we're going to do an ERC20 community coin and we're going to build our own like local uh self-s sovereign economy like they would assume that I was like trying to scam them or something. >> Eric's dream he totally wants to do that >> to scam the neighbor. >> No to tell them that to start a coin. But uh yeah, I mean the I don't know the there there's so much goodwill that would need to be established. And that's why I kind of think like the only way is like kind of uh through the back door and just like not even talking about the

blockchain of it all, but just like building a system that works that can have blockchain rails. And frankly, it doesn't have to. Um but uh as long as it works and people understand it and and can trust it, um I I think that's that's the way. Yeah, and I hope we get there fast. I know we talk about this a ton at Jourodow trying to Trojan horse journalists and that's completely insane. We are extremely stubborn as a profession. So yeah, I I think that it I think it's we're in that almost that perfect storm scenario where you can just look outside the window and say this is why we need this system of economics because that system out there is not working and they can go to the

grocery store and see that that's not working. So, I feel like if nothing else, we don't have to explain it. The problem is having these ridiculous politicians hijack the narrative with all of the, you know, >> moneyaundering coins. if you're doing corruption like uh let's prosecute people uh for the the corruption that they're doing uh and not you know not prosecute the tools that uh that people are figuring out ways to be corrupt with because >> tools are just tools and you know you can use them to blow stuff up or to um create. So yeah, I was um I almost threw my phone uh out the window today

listening to um it was I think Ezra Klein and uh an author who wrote uh who drives me crazy who wrote a book about crypto that I'm not going to name. Uh but you know, Ezra Klein asked him, "So like what happened to all of the you know, the the true believers and people that like really believe in like decentralization and blockchain and um where where are they?" And the author's response was, "Oh, well, they're all pretty much gone." And like, "Okay, >> so like this is this is and this is this is what people hear." And uh yeah, it it it drives me crazy. So, you know, we're not gone. Be louder. Green pill listeners be louder.

>> I feel like I was telling somebody this the other day at the um Bitcoin pizza global pizza party that those of us that have been around long in this ecosystem um we have to hold duality. We have to hold the vision that we see for what this technology can do like everything we're talking about but also hold the fact that right now it best use case is moneyaundering. I mean it really is one of the best prominent use cases and hold that duality long enough. >> The internet is still best for porn. So you know >> exactly like this is human nature.

>> I think it's probably more spam now but yeah. >> Yeah. So you know we have to hold this duality. I feel that also applies for, you know, living off grid, holding that perpetual dualities that we're holding, knowing that collapse is coming or a transition of some sort is on the way, but then you're also still going to the grocery store and doing your everyday life. So, it's the same with crypto. You have to hold space for both things to coexist so that when one does outweigh the other, you can transition more naturally instead of having like we saw with the pandemic and I think we're really about to see it probably in the next 6 to 12 months where you just wake up one day and everything has changed.

>> Yeah. And there's not much is changing everything the face of tech right now. We have no idea how that's really going to pan out. So, it's sort of another interesting uncertainty that's existing right now in tech and it's accelerating so much. Like, it's accelerating in good and bad ways. Like, I use it constantly now and I actually really enjoy working with it. And from a contemplative yogic perspective, I never thought I would be combining ancient tantric wisdom with modern tech and running it through a model that's telling me how to solve leadership problems. That to me is not something I would have anticipated.

and being able to turn the models against the oligarchs in some way. Like if you feed it enough contemplative wisdom and people do it at scale, it begins to change the way the language model perceives itself and the people that are using it, which I think is really fascinating. But it also has the capacity to mirror back the worst of humanity at the same time. >> Yeah. I mean, it all comes back to tools again, right? like uh I think I started off saying like uh the only reason we can make anything work off grid is because of YouTube. Well, that's like very quickly transitioned over the last year or two um because of AI. It's like way beyond like what uh Reddit and YouTube are holding my hands as we moved in here and now I'm like uh on AI. It's

it's incredible. Be like, okay, I can look at this 2x4. Oh, it's uh it's white pine number two and it's this width. And now I can just like ask AI and AI can tell me in 5 seconds like what is the load I can put on this piece of wood. It's it's amazing you know and >> it happened quick just like the Skype example where like suddenly we're video calling where it seemed like the Jetsons when we were a kid and now it's like very quickly all of a sudden everyone's using AI like where'd that come from? So it's like it just sort of as technology speeds up and then we see infrastructure is failing and governments being unsupportive, it's like it seems just like this perfect storm of like anything could happen and nobody expected the pandemic. And so now it just feels like

that could easily happen again too. Like seems like I'm just waiting for it to happen. Honestly, I'm like when's the next one going to be? Do you feel like that? the next little big event or pandemic. >> Pandemic specifically. Now that it happened, I'm like, well, could just happen again just as easily. Why wouldn't it? >> I gave up. I definitely gave up on predictions uh over a decade ago. This they began to to fail me. And like, you know, with the with the off- grid thing, like I've never really been comfortable like um evangelizing about it very much about like um I don't really like to go around and talk about like the carbon footprint and like the the like the greener

sustainable aspect of it cuz like let's be real, I still I we still travel. I still have a truck that doesn't get great gas mileage. So it's like, you know, we kind of go back and forth and you do what you can. But like what like what's in it for me is like the only thing I've ever really like excelled at to the point where people want to pay me for it is like is writing. And guess what? Now computers do that and like >> and and a lot of people around the world. Um so like the off-grid thing is just for is just kind of I see it as a way for me to make myself a more useful person. to be of service in some way if I ever need to be called into service whenever the next thing

>> acquiring skills, hands-on skills. Yeah. And it feels like a safety net like we I talked about it as an economic safety net just owning your own home, but like also we're okay. We've got like systems that we've got our own infrastructure in place. We've got a community who also does. So it's like we're supported. So, it is a sense of security for ourselves as well. I feel like that's a big one, too. Like me live in an apartment by myself with my dog and >> gross. There was a part of me that was Oh my gosh, he's I don't want to be on camera today. Um, and like there was a part of me that

always figured at this point at this stage in my in my life, in my career, I would be transitioning and going off- grid in whatever that looked like. Um, I definitely don't have that skill set. Good friend of mine who's a little bit older, lives off-rid up in Pter Canyon near her and I go visit him and I watch him. It's on a canyon completely off-rid and I watch I'm like there's no way in hell I could do that. I would be dead. Like I would just freeze to death one night because I could >> I bet you could like I I know you like I think you >> you just have to set up good systems. I think >> yeah, you maybe do it differently than the way your friend does it, but like you could do Crystal could do Crystal off grid. I'm pretty sure

>> Yeah, >> I could do possibly. I mean, I don't follow directions like does not follow directions at all, >> but I was raised by a carpenter, so I like to think that I could just channel his spirit and build something. >> Well, our systems aren't are set up for Eric who's like 6'4 or whatever. They're not set up for me at all. So there's like certain things I'm like if I did this myself, I would do it differently than the way he set it up. But it's fine >> for now. But again, the systems can change. You know, we could add a wood stove and we could add the greenhouse and you know, >> I'm not growing that.

>> Got some stilettos in the closet you could put on to. Well, I feel like too like um when I first joined Jourodo, it was probably about six months in, we started talking about making Jouo pods and we were all just going to show up on y'all's land one day and just communally live. But the more we played with the idea, I'm like, that actually is a really that makes a lot of sense that as things begin to fall apart, people come to live together in community in a way that reflects the land, doesn't reflect the capitalistic systems we live in. Like I know if if collapse happens up here, I've got neighbors that I am close with.

Like there's a community here I can come to, we're still going to be at the mercy of a power grid and of a water system. So I feel like if the more dramatic version of this transition happens, then you're going to get more people that are like, "All right, show us how y'all did this." And y'all get to lead the way for the normies up here in the suburbs to embrace being off. I mean, I think that we'd like to do that now. Like even now, I think because we have that foot in both worlds cuz Eric's like in tech and we're from the suburbs. So, I'd like to think we have a foot in both worlds.

We're not just like totally off-grid and in our bubble that to help other people figure out how to live more sustainably now or create systems to rely on. Um, but like a lot of it, it's kind of goes back to what we were talking about with people not being willing to adopt crypto. Um, it's sort of like born out of necessity, right? Like in the United States were so um abundant. We like don't even realize how wealthy we are.

And so like we don't really think about it. Like everything we can watch our TV, we've got our phones. We kind of like could go to the movies. we go to the mall and get all our cheap Chinese goods. And so like those things feed us and keep us they're the big band-aid, right? They're like, "Well, everything's fine. I can still go to the mall and buy all this stuff for cheap. Like I can even with the inflation, it's like we still are shopping. We're still like going about our business the same way we have. So there's not like that urgency that's in like South America or Africa.

uh there's just no we just don't have the majority of Americans are not feeling that urgency that for whatever reason the three of us sense that urgency and there are definitely people out there that sense that urgency and so like maybe if we could just reach those people that are starting to have a sense of urgency and just like I don't know just tap in a little bit and be like well what if you didn't buy that you know even that something as simple as that like what if you stopped buying those things or what if you started growing something or got a CSA. I mean, just like even the smallest little things that you could do to become more self-sufficient and sustainable that like it benefits you, but ultimately it benefits everybody in the long run. It

gives a sense of security to everybody. Um and then and that's you know like I guess that's just saying is are there enough people out there that have a sense of urgency and where does that urgency come from and why do we feel it and they don't feel it you know and what >> I wonder if there's more people who I don't know if it's a sense of urgency but there's more people who like kind of fall into like this kind of off-grid category that we're talking about because I'm thinking of like the the whole like van life movement feels like an extension of this. I mean the the van things seems like an entire generation of people a little bit >> millennials a little bit younger than us who are like kind of feel left out of the

>> the job market or of like you know traditional career paths and they're like it's not quite the same as offgrids but it is kind of like >> it is though it is off grid. It's another way to be off- grid. they're dropping out. And I do like Yeah, what you said made me also think about I think some people's sense of urgency comes from how stressed and burnt out they are by our society and like how much harder they're going to have to work and churn right now, especially with inflation and all these things. Like it's just the things getting harder and our safety our social safety nets being reduced. It's just making things harder and harder for people. So I think some people are so stressed and burnt out that they are looking for other ways and other options that could be like

connecting with nature or looking at more mindfulness or minimalism or like off-grid dropping out like how can I work less instead of like the old paradigm work more work harder grind. >> It's like people are grinding so hard just to maintain at this point. Um, and people are just that I mean you're going to burn out. You can't keep that up. And they're doing that to like have the big house and the big car and put their kids through college and pay for doctor bills and just like basic things that should be human rights. You know, you should be able to feed yourself and your family without burning out. So that might be

the American sense of urgency >> could come from that direction. Yeah. Yeah. No, those are great points and I think you brought up something that I want to crack into a little bit with um younger generations and also um you know going off-rid there's a solar punk movement like back in after the housing collapse in 2008 is when my production business just all my clients went away. I was like oh here we are. I was stuck with a high rent living by the beach. I'm like oh I just plucked myself. So then once I got out of the lease, I basically just went completely off-rid but as a digital nomad and embraced minimalism and just wandered for well over a decade and went took my identity off-rid too which is really fascinating. I was much harder to do now

but did it legally >> and I feel like that is also something that I see more younger people leaning into especially as um like back then you could do writing online. There was I built websites online. There was work you could do online that would pay the bills as you travel. AI does all of it now. >> Yeah. >> So this younger generation, they're kind of like >> Yeah. I was gonna say I feel like digital nomad. Awesome. Living the dream, but like now it's harder and harder to get like remote online jobs. Yeah. >> Yeah. And even with my resume and experience, and I just did corporate a few years ago, so I don't have a huge corporate background, but I can't even get those jobs. Those jobs are being eliminated because I can do everything in AI right now. Um, so that is another

element of the perfect storm that we're we're seeing is that I think the younger generation is going to lead us towards something that is more of them stepping away from society. What once you realize how corrupt the system is and I think the 2008 collapse really showed it for a lot of us um because of the age we were in our mid-30s. So it really put a crimp in a lot of things and I think as this younger generation begins to see how all of it's just basically all these systems that have been created through capitalism they are and you can already see it in some of the younger you know regen movements or environmental movements and spiritual movements that they're seeking different ways of living and they're really good at communal living. I think um our

generation was more of the friends we grew up with the you know friends TV version of communal living whereas this younger generation seems to be more inclined to live in formal communes and and spaces. I think that's kind of fascinating to watch too. Gives me a little bit of hope. I >> feel like when I grew up my parents were like into the back to the land movement in the 70s. They were really big into it and they weren't hippies. It was just like the trend. It was like trendy like in the same way that it was trendy to have long hair in the 70s. It was like trendy to do this sort of like back to the land thing. So they kind of did it.

And my mom is a little bit more like alternative thinking too. But like they just kind of did it, you know? Um so I wonder if we could move towards it in that way like if it could become like something trendy because as you were speaking I'm like yeah but what about Tik Tok? Like what about social media? A lot of the young people are so hooked on social media and they're stuck in these algorithms which probably will get worse with AI. I imagine it'll get more refined. Um I don't know. But um so that would be like the flip side. It's like maybe like Eric said, it could be a tool towards trending in that direction, you know, if we can just sort of instead of being opiated, which is like always the

fear that just opiated by Tik Tok instead of like revolutionized by Tik Tok. I guess the the revolution will not be televised was like a real Gen X thing like cuz we had TV. We didn't have internet or social media. So it was like get off your TV, right? Right. The revolution won't be on won't be televised. Get off the TV. That was sort of our revolutionary slogan, but now it's like means so much more. I feel like >> I feel some need to defend my boy Adam Smith and and capitalism as like I like I still, you know, I still believe in the like capitalism is the worst system except

for all the other ones. Um, and uh, I just feel like I I'm I'm very excited by um, I I still am very excited by um, like just like the level of innovation and and uh, look, I watched the SpaceX launch last night and like I I wrote a thing about how much uh, uh, it drives me crazy that um, I'm still rooting for Elon even though even though he's Elon. Um, but it like I just feel like >> you admitted it >> it's more the it's more the it's more the marriage of of capitalism and that like you know kind of true like western

like we can we can build our way out of this but like marrying that to community like taking taking the dial. I think Spencer has has said this. I met and he put it this way like like if we just take the dial and you adjust the dial on capitalism and like I I would like to turn it way to the left. >> Um like it's more a matter of adjustments versus versus revolution to me because I don't know I don't really want to live in China. Um >> because are we living really in is this really capitalist society that we live in at this point? like >> this is what what >> well just because of the way it's been distorted to lean towards enhancing the

rich. >> I mean that's so like I kind of >> that's kind of where it's not working. You know what I mean? It's like bailouts and subsidizing like you know it's not an actual capitalist structure. It's >> right. Well because I don't think that the the state side of that is not really doing its job either. So like I I kind of view working in web 3 as trying to actually do like walk the talk here of like marrying community and capitalism. Like I think that's what web 3 is. It's also kind of my penance of like as a tech writer for over a decade like really like being for a long time like being a booster and a and a true believer in things like uh uh Google and um

I was really there's some I wrote some embarrassing things about Google right now and how like they really did seem to be uh like they were it was a different company on on a different mission. >> Uh really they weren't going to do evil. Um and Man, I feel like somewhere around like 2015, I was like, "Wow, I I was really really duped and uh and and now like you know, some of those companies are about to like inherit like not inherit but capture insane power with AI." Um, so uh yeah, it's not going it's not going where I thought it was going to go or hoped it was going to go and I think the the antidote is is in this community.

I think yeah, you you guys both nailed this conversation like really beautifully. And I want to bring back what Dana was saying is that this type of capitalism isn't functional. It's it is distorted to the the few that have the power. It it's not for the greater good. And I think we can look back to again because we grew up in an analog world. Our parents grew up benefiting from what came out of World War II, which was a strong middle class, which was a high tax rate for for, you know, everybody paid their fair amount of taxes. And we were able to build a thriving middle class where, you know, I grew up in a lovely home and my dad worked and my mom stayed home and raised

us in the suburbs and he had one job and he was able to stay at that job his entire career and he loved raising a family. So, he didn't, you know, we weren't extravagant. He kept it simple and there was infrastructure for that and that doesn't exist anymore. I feel like >> we could roll back to a form of capitalism that was not so extractive. >> And Google, I'm glad you brought up Google, Eric, because they had a moment where I believe it was in 2012. No, not 2012, sooner than that. It was after a lot of the com bubble burst. People were trying to figure out what its product model was, where it what its PMF was and they saw the collapse that had happened to all of these other startups. So they

chose extraction and surveillance capitalism book is excellent. She really gets into the details of how that decision was made in a boardroom with a handful of people and then it defined the way social networking came about, how Facebook monetized, how everything was monetized through extracting personal data and it was just made by a couple people in a room and then it became the norm. So I feel like without regulations and without you know a strong state that can say all right and and that's a fine line to walk too. I mean, you know, China is something, but man, they really do have advanced technology in everything over there. Um, so that's a a marriage of communism and capitalism that's really fascinating to to unwind

>> because personal liberties are gone. >> They're living in the Jetson world. >> I guess I guess I subscribe to the the idea that it's probably all all cyclical and that the the market like the market has too much power. the um the state is is inept or corrupt in a lot of ways or or a combination of both. So like like where do you where do you rebuild from that? And I think you build out of this like kind of third community sector that we're working in and I like I said like you tune the you tune the dial to the left. So like you build like in a third way outside of the state as much as

possible outside of the well it's not really it's more like drawing from both from both like you're you're working with markets you're working with the states but in a community centered way uh and like ideally hopefully to build back up the state to a place where it is more you you root out the corruption and you build back up those systems to like yeah point where like they were somewhere, you know, the New Deal era in the next 20 or 30 years, right? Like that that's kind of the place we want to get back to. I think it's just a cycle like we're in the collapse cycle and uh like >> No, you

>> Well, no, I agree with you. Build the systems, right? like live off-rid, create alternative um currencies, like doing localized like doing all this work. Um let's keep doing regenerative agriculture like let's keep doing it. Let's keep building those systems but it's going to take urgency for people to really dig in and start enacting them. That's just like and so I when I think of that I think urgency is like you know getting first >> right but it's like something is has to go down to like yeah let's have those in

let's have it in place for what people >> like every day though >> I think it already went down it's going down but like do you see that in our culture like maybe do you you actually are more in touch I think the larger culture than I am. I'm a little bit more dropping out, but like do you see people like wanting to make real change because of the sense of urgency or do you think that's still >> Yes. >> ahead? >> I do. And for some reason, the leader of that movement seems to be Donald Trump.

Uh, it sure be. >> Well, I mean, >> he's a catalog. >> If there's a revolutionary class in the US, they vote for him like that, you know, like and >> wait, can I tell I want to say something? There's this new trend of people taking in New Mexico because in New Mexico we don't have any um what are those laws for like exhaust? >> Oh, emission. >> We don't have any emission testing in New Mexico. Oh, there's no So, there's a trend now in New Mexico, people taking like the muffler off of their car or something to emit like more carbon.

>> You got to roll coal. >> Is that it? Is that what it's called? >> It's like bigger. Like, it's like it's like an FU to carbon um offset or carbon neutrality. It's like, no, we're going to create more. Like, it's a right. Have you seen this? People rolling around with these big clouds of smoke behind them with like a big on purpose. Like they're retrofitting new cars. >> Yeah. These are not old cars. Old cars like Yeah. Whatever. These are retrofitted new cars to emit more >> carbon and more pollution. Have you seen this?

>> It's insane. It's hilarious. >> So, what were you saying about Donald Trump and his followers? They're revolutionary and >> well I mean like if well if we're just defining revolution as like you know like tearing down the system and building back something in your own image >> what system are they tearing down though but what system them >> what are they tearing down like what >> the federal government I mean >> but they're tearing down >> like all norms and >> like systems that are helpful for the people.

>> Yeah, cuz they chose the wrong candidates. I mean, you know, this kind of goes back what this became like off-grid like retroactive politics. Uh but like it kind of goes back to to 2016 where like you famously told me I was stupid to not vote for Bernie in the primaries. I thought he >> Bernie 2016. >> Yeah, I told you he was not electable. And uh little did I know that I mean if Donald Trump is electable there certainly is no reason that Bernie Sanders wasn't electable. So >> fault >> Donald Trump is your fault.

>> That that's why I don't make predictions anymore. Like that's when there was a moment where I thought I was pretty good at making predictions. It was like based entire journalistic career off of it and then it all fell apart around 2015. So >> which makes sense. I mean I think Logic left the building in 2015. Well, I think you have a person who and I don't I don't actually credit Trump with this. I can't believe we're going this deep into the politics. I think you can credit like Steve Bannon with a lot of this with and like who's another interesting character. You you can credit with correctly diagnosing a lot of problems in our system and in our society and then putting forward some of the absolute worst leaders and solutions

to address those problems. and and successfully selling them to that the closest thing we've had in our lifetime to a revolutionary class in the United States. Sold it to those those forgotten Americans or whatever and it's this in and that's is how we got here. >> Okay. Now, how do you sell them crypto? >> Well, apparently you get that person to launch a memecoin. >> Uh, no. That's my job and I'm I'm still working on it. But uh I think you have conversations like this. I mean I don't I don't know what else what else to do but to kind of spread the good word.

What do you think Crystal? How do we how do we sell it? >> Oh no. This is Joe. You actually asked a lot of questions I was going to ask. So this is perfect. Um I actually think that Trump is the catalyst and that for a lot of the complacent population who is complacent for many reasons and most of them are valid and some of them are not. um seeing everything fall apart when they thought they were the chosen ones because that was their candidate and that they were part of this cult movement and now the decisions being made by that president and administration are now directly impacting them that is going to cause the revolution. They are the ones that need to get out into the street and they have been which I think is fascinating is those that voted for Trump are the

ones that have to now stand up and demand that it be fixed. I don't know if it'll happen fast enough. Um, you know, historically, authoritarianism kicks in pretty fast and this administration is using, you know, very proven playbooks to implement step by step. Um, and and they're doing it. So, at this point, I think it is the catalyst for many things. I think that if all of that cult can rise up and demand that they get their benefits back, >> I would like to see like a friend of mine has been for since January like we have to there has to be a national strike. It's the only way. I was like, "Well, that's nobody's going to organize

a national strike." And I've kind of started to hear rumblings of it, but you but it has to it's what you're saying like like a strike of like truck drivers who like maybe they're manga, maybe they're not, but like they're they're actually being replaced by AI now by self-driving trucks and >> and they've lost their veteran benefits. They're losing their Medicaid and Medicare. that big beautiful bill passes, everybody's about to lose all of the entitlements that they have been getting from the government up to this point that they didn't even realize they were getting entitlements. They always thought it was the other the immigrants that are taking all the resources, but it's actually a lot of his following are the benefactors of these entitlements.

So, I think that is really interesting. I've seen it just in local community containers where people who are veterans are spiraling and doing all kinds of toxic behaviors in communal regenerative settings because of that pressure cooker. And I think the more you see that, the more they have to feel that they are the ones that are now being attacked, then they will stand up because it's not going to be those of us on the other side who have been protesting for decades. It's not us at this point. It has to come from the cult itself. which that'll be interesting. I mean, yeah, that's why I got toilet paper and rice up in here for a few months. I'm just gonna be hold up in here >> with my dog.

>> Okay, Eric, now make your five top predictions for 2025. Just kidding. >> No, that's wild. I I I think that's I mean, I don't know. It like hurts my heart a little bit. It's like a little bit of heartache when you're talking about it, you know? Um because like I mean some of the some people you know there there are god I don't like to stereotype people it's a dangerous game but like um there are okay rural America you know I'd like to see a revitalization of rural America I think that would be something that would cross party lines right I mean there's this divide this sort of like land

divide between like urban people tend to be more liberal. Rural people tend to be more conservative, but it's really the rural people that are the the farmers, the laborers, you know, they're doing the dirty work that AI won't replace necessarily. And um like people in urban areas are like so concerned about not being able to pay rent and the cost of living. But you could move to these rural areas and live at a really low cost and off-grid too.

You can live more sustainably, cheaply, low cost. Um, but people have this idea that like rural areas look a certain way or have a certain type of community. So, I don't know. I think like that might be um my prediction for 202. I like that. I like that. I that could be a real revolution. I don't know if urban people cuz I'm not one. I've never been one. I mean, I think I tried it out for a couple years and I went insane. But I don't know, you know, if they'd be willing to do that maybe in community, maybe if like all your besties, you know, and or a whole community of artists or whole community

of musicians or, you know, like you had your whole community move out and revitalize rural areas. It hasn't happened thus far. It didn't happen in 2007 88, so I don't know if it what would spark it, but it's an idea >> that you've brought up a great point. Like I used to spend a lot of time in rural communities and I loved them and I stopped around 2015 um when the tea party was at scale and when it became impossible to sit at a dive bar in Arizona >> and just talk about sports or the weather.

>> It all became >> you know identity politics >> and there's so many amazing towns like Luna in southern Colorado near y'all. Like that is such a great little town. The bones in that town are amazing. If there were a movement of people back into a town like that from all walks of life, all political >> Yeah. >> and found a way to connect in community like that, I would move there in a heartbeat. But to move there now Yeah. >> and not bring a gaggle of people with me means I'm going to have to be isolated from humanity because I only have so much tolerance for >> that type of conversation that is not grounded in logic or fact. That is just >> random random life hack. I've been to La

Huna in the last 10 years and and everyone was very nice. But random life hack um wanted to do we do like writing retreats for ourselves like a couple times a year like she'll like go get an Airbnb and like write for for some place and uh and I'll try to do it too. But I like usually like like to go somewhere like further a field, but I didn't want to like spend a whole bunch of time driving to a place where I would have like a writing retreat. So, my hack was to go to the nearest Amtrak station and get on the uh ride the train because I could write on the train. So, I'm like able to write like while I'm traveling >> and like for whatever reason the schedule between like the nearest Amtrak and like how far I could I could go and

it you know not have to sleep on the train was Luna. So, like I I did a writing retreat via train to Luna. Wonderful place. Good bar. Well, I was going to say too in Tal, right, Tal is like a pretty um it's the kind of town people want to live in, but they feel like they can't afford it. So, e economy is also a an important aspect to rural living like there aren't enough jobs rurally. So, obviously, we have to take that into consideration. It's would be having to do remote work or service work or something like that. But, um TA is the kind of place people want to live in. But back in the 60s, it was sort of more like a backwater little town and the a lot of communes started up here.

So we have a few that remain. Many don't exist anymore, >> but um that's basically how people did it. They brought entire communities with them and created communal living situations. And I think that's part of why TA now is um like do you know is more popular destination. Obviously the hippies can't take credit for it because we have the Tal PBLO and the gorge bridge and it's beautiful. There's mountains and there's ski resort. There's lots of other great reasons but um that like brought in an influx of people and kind of brought up the economy a little bit more of the town. So yeah, I think it takes a village probably. That's actually why

Tal is on my list once I'm done with the Boulder area. Um, and I have a few friends here are thinking the same. It's just all of us going that direction because it has the bones of a small town. It has the rural area. It has communal living. Um, and it's a slower pace. Like I I love it up here for now, but it's very busy. And I live in a small town north of Boulder, so it's not even that crazy. >> Yeah. And something we've seen here, too, is people are spreading out. So there's tons of land, cheap land here, but people haven't been willing to be that far from town. And now more people are more willing to be further out from town and in exchange for the cheap land.

So it's growing in that sense, you know, >> and I have my skepticism about like how how well communes actually work like at scale, but like the the like smaller scale like co-living thing kind of seems >> like international communities. Not even intention, but just like, you know, like kind of the like it kind of breaks my heart a little bit. Their cabin cabin is was is unwinding because they uh >> like I really like that idea of just like just kind of this like loose network, decentralized network of Yeah. like people who are into co-l livingiving and there's like a network that you can tap into and like get some resources support like and and have a network but you don't have to like I

mean let's face it like communes are >> ultimate centralization. like maybe that doesn't work. But uh yeah, like a little bit more like a narco commamian thing. >> Yeah, that is our style. >> That's more my style, too. Like I love the concept of communal living and intentional communities and I've I've traveled enough and traveled through them. I think they're a beautiful thing. They're definitely not for me. I'm way too introverted and I don't want anybody telling me what to do in my house. Like that's why I live alone and have a dog that can't talk back to me. So like that. But I would love to live in aworked area like the Jouopods. And we are going to have to manifest that because I feel like I could live on land with all of y'all knowing y'all as well as I do that I could know when

everybody's having their moment and we all know like all right let's all just go do our thing and then we could come together when we need each other or just when we need to be together you know and >> I wonder if people this is just sort of obvious but like creating community where you have where you are already too like how do we like create more community in our community because like the old suburban lifestyle is pretty like you don't know your neighbor that kind of thing like how do you create more um community atmosphere more community support like trading like I have a garden and I trade like I have an overabundance of zucchini that's not a good example because everybody does but

you know or tomatoes or whatever that you can trade with your neighbor or having swaps or um sharing uh child care or like how can you just take communities that already exist and like bring them more together to help each other too is another like um step in the direction of you know like sustainability and um everything we're talking about. >> Yeah. Supportive networks.

>> Supportive networks. Yeah. >> All those things. >> I feel like that's a good stopping point there. Um, yeah. I don't have anything else in my notes. What do you guys What words of wisdom would the max like to leave us with? >> Oh, no pressure there. >> I mean, things we've already said like you could take small steps, which we talked a lot about different small steps that you could take on your own right now. Um, finding that your sense of urgency, whatever that may be. Um, and sort of allowing yourself to feel that tension and dig into it and see where it leads you instead of trying to like push it

away with more like media, but like really like live sit with that tension for a while of urgency and like what what do you feel called to do to contribute? We gave so many ideas creating community learning more skills uh more environmental sustainability you know there's like tons of things you can do but um yeah I would urge because especially in your in this community right there's people who obviously are thinking in that direction like that's who's listening right so yeah that would be my my call to you would be to sit with the urgency see where it leads you where do you called to do to contribute in your your small way?

>> I just recommend um marrying, partnering up, living with somebody who doesn't mind getting their hands dirty. >> That's gross. >> That's fantastic. >> Very dirty. You're being literal about it too. >> It's gross. Gross. >> We're gross people. Crystal >> dirt life. You do you. Wait, no. But you're exactly right. Like that partnership is definitely um yeah, it's definitely a necessary thing. So yeah. So how can if our audience wants to follow y'all's work because I know y'all have a beautiful Substack. Um how do we how do we follow along?

>> Our uncert uncertainfuture.com. Is that the best one? >> Uncertain future.com. Yep. >> Yep. >> And it well sounds like after this conversation, our uncertain future is very fitting, >> right? That's kind of what the conversation was about, I feel like. >> If not our uncertain present. >> Yeah. >> Very good. Awesome. >> All right, everyone. Thank you for listening. Thank you for joining us, Eric and Joe. And we'll catch you next time. >> Thanks, Crystal. Thanks, Greenpo. [Music]