Season 9. Episode 1: Building Community in Times of Transition

Transcript

how humans decide to use AI is still up to humans, but machines know what comes next. So, yeah, I was like after I read that I was like, "Holy [ __ ] it's not wrong." Like, we're in this window. We can choose to use it in a way that benefits humanity and just makes our lives easier and makes us more intellectually stimulated. I mean, there are ways to use these technology to get deep into intellectual thought processes. We have like a two parallel societies. one the most utopian that we've ever seen where there's like drones delivering stuff and um like you know literally like I pull up my phone and like I can have whatever I want delivered in in two hours. Um and as we saw like as we saw during co like the

the increasingly dystopian society that is like literally like working behind the scenes maybe making those deliveries. Yeah. We I remember this sort of moment of deep irony realizing that the you know the the tech that we love and are building when it comes to anything distributed and and within the world of web 3 is sort of meant to be the counterbalance and to see uh integrity quickly get thrown out the window as we're building these systems that are meant to you know be the the counteracting force against it. It's just uh yeah, I think that fit really well to think of it. There is just this like you know vacuum that gets created

and humans going to human as I like to say and like sure enough and we're seeing I mean the new two EDS just got you know announced at the EF. There's like these these clear reactions I think to people realizing like where where are the adults in the room right now? [Music] Hello everyone and welcome to a guest season of Green Pill with Juno Dow. Um we're gonna roll this nice and loose and riff and um organic. Basically our theme for this season, we're going to do probably four episodes and we're looking at

how to function in systems that are accelerating towards transition or collapse or whatever we want to call it. So, we're going to break down different systems like community, um, sustainability, leadership, all of this good stuff. So, today we're going to talk about, uh, building and chaos. We're going to explore community, um, cosmolocism, and maybe network societies. Um, we all are pretty opinionated on that one, so we'll see how far we get into it. Um, and quick intro, I am Crystal with Jourodell, and, um, everybody here is from the Jerno family. Um uh basically we have a background in journalism and um academics and also production. And

yeah, I'll kick it over to you guys. Why don't you go first, Taylor? Cool. Yeah, the short bit here is uh spent quite a bit of time in sort of academia proper within sort of post-secary uh in in Colorado and uh sort of found the tension that existed uh when big bureaucracies and systems don't adapt to the world around them uh which I think will be a a theme we come back to and so 201617 time frame went head first down the rabbit hole of of crypto and web 3 and sort of have uh been at the intersection of those two worlds ever since. Community nonprofit and impact learning economy

foundation is a nonprofit. That's sort of my core focus. Uh but also just have a deep interest in these sort of liinal intersectional spaces uh between education, technology, and and uh academia. That's where I'm coming from. Nice. And uh my name's Eric Mack and I will represent definitely the the least educated and uh most foul-mouthed among us. Well, depending on how animated Crystal gets, I think. But um yeah, my background's uh in in journalism for the vast majority of of my career. Uh and then the last uh couple of years more focused in in web 3 and uh trying to to bridge those two as as much as we can.

and we'll see if we we get into that here at all. But uh thanks for putting this together, Crystal, and good to be here. Thanks for joining me and joining us. Also, I didn't give my background. So, just so y'all know why I'm opinionated and animated and fbombs fly. Uh my background is in photojournalism. did that for decades freelance TV production and then stumbled into crypto in 2017 through um privacy lensed um from some really amazing hackers that taught me this stuff and have managed to work in community building and palms at some very interesting endeavors. We won't get into that one just yet, but all right. Um also squeaky chair and there's a dog. That's why there's so he is my sidekick. Might might be the first

uh season with a mascot. I don't know if if there's been a been an accompanying animal for any previous Green Bills. I think he should be the Green Bill mascot. Honorary. Last year he wore the down um glasses at your pizza thing at the pizza party. So yeah. Awesome. So where do you want to start? I have some notes here. Um, we could start with integrity vacuums. All all really positive stuff here. Integrity vacuums, human systems, localism, community building. What what what are y'all feeling? Which which rabbit hole do we want to start with?

What is an integrity vacuum? Just start with the light the light stuff. Yeah, light stuff. maybe frame up integrity vacuum because that seems obscure and esoteric but I think there's a lot of practical pieces underneath it. I think you are right. So, integrity vacuum, we stumbled onto that a few um I think it was last month and we were Taylor and I were working on some stuff and got into a conversation with our AI models in the middle of the night. That also, you know, tends to happen a lot and we're looking at, you know, one of the issues in our ecosystem is this lack of integrity across the board in all niches without throughout crypto. And you know what does that integrity vacuum look

like when there's no leadership power structures in place especially when you're looking through the lens of community you know what does that mean and what type of you know nefarious activities or weird things can surface in a power vacuum especially when it comes from a place of just lack of integrity. Yeah, we I remember this sort of moment of deep irony realizing that the you know the the tech that we love and are building when it comes to anything distributed and and within the world of web 3 is sort of meant to be the counterbalance and to see uh integrity quickly get thrown out the window as we're building these systems

that are meant to, you know, be the the counteracting force against it. It's just uh yeah, I think that fit really well to think of it. There is just this like you know vacuum that gets created and humans going to human as I like to say and like sure enough and we're seeing I mean the new two EDS just got you know announced at the EF. There's like these this clear reactions I think to people realizing like where where are the adults in the room right now? We'll see how how those folks unfold. I think they seem like good choices, but anyway, but I just deep irony is where we it's at least where I landed when we started to to dig into that vacuum that exists.

I mean, you know, in terms of like decentralized protocol world, like this one actually seems like kind of a an easy one to address, which is like there's kind of I don't feel like there's any choice but to like ignore this [ __ ] and like role model something better, you know? It's kind of like, you know, like I think what you what you try to what I try to teach my my daughter and like what I think like you know you you try to do with young people as much as you can like um and you know the the analog is the easy analog is always I think like the the internet at large the other like uh very successful protocol which is as we know um largely filled with uh with [ __ ] and pornography uh and

spam and uh like you know we've we've built We've built filters and uh we didn't we didn't get it. It didn't go away. We didn't get rid of it, but uh we are we have become very skilled and we have tools now to uh to look away or to you know not not see it at all. And like I like I wouldn't really if it were if it were addressed almost any other way, I think I would um rage quit. So like this one to me like seems fairly easy and maybe the maybe the the deeper question in there is like okay um uh well that's that's obuscation to the real question which is well how do you how do you elevate

um the the the better actors um to how do you drown out the the [ __ ] like I guess may maybe that's what the real question is. I don't know if that question has an answer. It's a really good one. Um because it also depends on what segment of the industry we're talking about. In certain organizational structures, that integrity vacuum exists at the very top. So it trickles down organically to the rest of the organizational structure and those who do speak out get kicked out. So then you can look over at the impact side where that system is designed for everyone to have a voice and for some sort of equity should be baked into the system be it through governance or through other types of social norms. And yet you have a lot of bypassing in those systems and

also a lack of leadership. I mean some of the leadership is really strong but some of the leadership just is either too young or just not used to dealing with all of these gaps that we have um from actors doing whatever in whatever dark corners they can and not realizing that that's at the heart of a community. I think that's also comes down to the community builders like what are they trained you know what is their background in just dealing with humans. I feel like some of the best community builders are those who have bartended or worked in coffee shops or worked in with humans making eye to eye contact and know how to resolve conflict on the fly um you know when it arises so they can see it before

it happens. I feel like in in 2025 I've never felt more conflicted between you know be be the change you want to see. I think Eric you're right like what else is there? just go and model and like do what feels right so that others can see there is a a different way. But like I've also felt this pull towards we've got to call out the [ __ ] when it stinks, which is not that's been a shift. Like that's not my natural I would rather just like go on do do work that I'm motivated by and be the model.

Uh but it does feel like there's a lack of leadership from a perspective of like when this integrity vacuum clearly exists and it's the gravitational pull is is there and obvious and felt. I mean some of it's overt and like explicit when it when things really, you know, when the [ __ ] truly hits the fan, but often it's subtle. And so when it is like who what's what's our responsibility to just put our own reputation at stake and and call it out.

And I think there's just a lot of like ah that's someone else's problem. I mean this is the current sort of reality all the way up to current administration in the US at least. Uh those that are willing to just sort of fold and and you know be part of the the reality. We're not going to change it. You know there's power. There's there's, you know, this is just how humans operate. Better to fold in, you know, and yeah, sure, model it and like be a good representative, you know, lemming within the system. But I think I'm feeling more and more tension where it's like sometimes it's really obvious and when people are clearly uh taking action that is, you know, known to be uh part of the problem,

you gota you have to call it out. And I I don't know that's just we can all do I think a better job of finding the the way the the moments to do that and the ways to do it that aren't you know aren't part of the collapse as it were aren't sort of creating deeper fractures but are actually part of the composting we talk about like what does it look like to actually build that back into foundational human and cultural systems that then can lead to something you know better. Yeah. Yeah, I mean definitely not opposed to to calling stuff out. It's like a little hard to know like what we're I think we might all be thinking of like different things. Like I'm specifically thinking of like when I'm talking about ignoring it stuff and like modeling like I had in mind like

you know the the scams and the rug poles and like the Libra coin of it all. like that's that's kind of what I had in mind in terms of like uh yeah like leadership issues in more like prominent like organizations or like uh you know like important organizations to the to the ecosystem um like yeah that that's a different thing and and like uh you know kind of like role modeling and um and also like calling stuff out these things are definitely not mutually exclusive like I think you can do um you can do both for sure Crystal this idea of soft hypocrisy which we've landed on a few times. Like that's where it becomes problematic. Not the overt obvious ones, but the the subtle soft versions of

hypocrisy or you know just like gently pulling the rug. There are versions where it's like what does that look like? Well, I feel like too like Eric what you're talking about with the rug pulls and the scams. Yes. There there's so many of them. They're everywhere. That's almost the downstream effect. You know, what starts that is what the CEO or the seauite or the founders decide to do. And I think we've all accidentally ended up in that room with those people and watched a certain personality type, be it a narcissist or or a Machavelli or whatever, make a decision and then the downstream effects just roll through and hit on so many different levels. And it's also it's it's simultaneously an issue of communication. We function in

the weirdest system in the world where crypto Twitter is our main comm's platform. And that blows me away cuz it's one of the most toxic places to to communicate in. And it thrives on narcissistic behaviors and the separation of individuals that like it really thrives on putting people into different categories and camps and that conflict and how do you take that and then run an organization where your main communication platform is designed to polarize. I think that's also part of the conversation.

Yeah, I I try to constantly advise people to not do that. And uh you know there's like more interesting I think podcasts are actually great and more uh healthy not without toxicity and problems but like generally you get like more substantive discussion and then you know the the paragraphs and substacks and ghost uh blogs of the world also you get like more um more substantive discussion there. Um so yeah kind of forever trying to push away from social media I think is helpful. I was I was going to move us into this sort of human versus tech systems conversation because I think we're all in real time trying to

architect our own version of like what feels healthy uh what platforms like you know and I think just recently we're feeling like uh this sort of gravitation back to some of the just like triedand-rue web 2 stuff and it's like ah that feels that's that's doesn't feel good having invested so much in some of the some of the web 3 tooling, but there's cases where it's like we got to meet people where they're at. So, I don't know. I don't know, Crystal, you might have had thoughts on where do where we want to go with this. I think we have a lot of thoughts. This could be this could be an hour plus just in Yeah.

in that. But and I think you you brought up a great point because I know I've been struggling with that this week, last night actually. I stayed up till 1:00 because I was like, am I really about to set up a Patreon right now? you know, am I about to look at Substack? I've spent so much of my life the past I don't know how many years just talking about decentralized comm's tools. All of the people that I've tried to onboard, I'm like, "Oh, don't use that. Don't use this. Try try our solution over here." And it just doesn't work anymore. So I think that is definitely um again a reflection of the decisions that are made that are made by a small group of people across the you know different parts of the industry that then impact that downstream effect like why is there

no web 3 version of Substack that is usable that I could give a journalist and say here is an option that is decentralized like it doesn't exist not in a way that is fluid and that shows that someone sat down a human sat down with a technologist and said here's the problem here's a solution let's build that like that is basic um that's a basic thing that we have missed I think I mean I I I I think being being an absolute purist or an absolutist in any way is is a pretty good way to um kill progress or kill any movement um so like I I yeah I think I've moved beyond the trying to be the absolute purist here

Um, you know, one one thing I did kind of think about this question in terms of like and I and I tried to think of like what institutions um both like on a on a personal level for me and then on like a larger like social level that we could all relate to. What institutions are like still are like still functioning and still trusted and still seem to be like acting for the good? Because I think if you come down to like most successful and uh functional institutions right now, you you kind of wander into a lot of big tech platforms, but I think we would maybe not agree on how positive a force that is. So, I'm I'm wiping those off the board. But like the institutions

that I think are still like doing a pretty good job and kind of holding the line like on a like social level, and you can argue with this, but like it's it it is like the judiciary. It's the courts. Not perfect, still problems, but like in terms of like functioning for the greater good, they're doing a better job than almost any other institution on a national level that I could think of. Um, and like then on like a local level and like in my day-to-day life, and I think I've mentioned this to you before, Crystal, it's the the like local um, search and rescue team that I'm on. Um, which, uh, is, and I I live in a town

where there's just like tons and tons of nonprofits and most of them are dysfunctional. The most functional one I've ever seen is our our search and rescue team, which, you know, has less of a budget. Nobody's paid. It's all volunteer, but like really is like more trusted and does a better job than far more well-funded nonprofits that have some much much better well-unded nonprofits. Um, and so like I I tried to think this morning like what do these things have in common? Um, and the answer I came up with that I don't even like myself is they are very clearly structured rules-based expectations are in writing and like in set in stone and these are like old

school like almost military like level of detail oriented control. Um, and I don't like that that's the answer, but like that is like if that is the key to a successful institution, that is like infrastructure and tooling that our ecosystem actually offers and like and like can improve upon. I mean, Ethereum can improve the judiciary. Ethereum can improve um, you know, deployment of search and rescue resources and and so like maybe like you don't it doesn't have to be pure. we don't have to have like the fully decentralized and integrated, you know, publishing stack or like stack for whatever you're doing,

but there is kind of this like basic infrastructure we're offering that kind of seems to be what the world needs right now. Does that make sense? That makes total sense actually. And I do agree and I um on both the judiciary and that centralized rule system basically for a missiondriven org and recently on the impact side as part of an open community where none of that existed. And as a professional community builder, that's terrifying because then you're you're creating a community container that is designed for aggressive people or predators or whoever wants to wander in and extract from the community because there's no rules. There's no guidelines. There's no if this happens,

do this. If this situation arises, do this. And there's no one that can really step up and say, "Hey, this is why we have a protocol in place when XYZ happens." So then everybody just kind of looks around at everybody and like, "Oh, hey, what about this thing? What about that? What about that? Then you have to hope somebody takes the initiative to make the container safe again. And that's terrifying as a professional community builder, honestly. Yeah. We're we're like we we seem to try to tack integrity and trust and these things on kind of to the end or something as opposed to Yeah. the the I think I I don't think I could disagree either. I mean where does like a fair amount of inte I mean we'll see as we go forward like where does integrity still exist in numbers I think it is like the courts

and we can point to some of these things I think academia I could point to pockets where I would say that's true there's certainly places where I'd say that's never been further from the case in that world um but yeah it's it's uh I think it's it's maybe more about just finding the gap apps and and yeah, not being a purist trying to find if we go upstream uh and find where there's this like clear fit into this cosmol local sort of frame which is affecting something maybe on a small scale in a localized I'm trying to do what came to mind when you were saying the volunteer work Eric was um for me uh uh no surprise being in Colorado the a local brewery these are

these are people that you know want nothing to do with technology they come into this community. It's a very small localized uh environment and you know I know the 12 people there that I could ask a favor of right now and they would be like would be no questions. They would be there to support because we've had this very like social uh high trust dynamic sure over the o over the over a few beers once in a while but like um so I think we got to go upstream. Yeah. I guess as opposed to what happens now, you know, things like um you know, Galaxy or or layer 3, these like community like you know questbased add-ons that kind of

come down it's it's so it's I mean even in the name layer three it's like it's like oh we build the blockchain then we've got like and it's like this third layer that we can like figure out that like can incentivize community trust and integrity. um as opposed to you know layer layer zero. Why didn't layer 3 I don't know if you guys know some of these these are super successful you know systems and technically kind of brilliant. I I really loved Galaxy when it came out. I did a bunch of quests and stuff and like cool but now now that I look back on it it's like man that was all backwards. We never went upstream to fix the human problems. We just tacked it on. Well, it's the gamification of

community, which you do need in some aspects. Like some of that, the quest building serves a really good purpose, but it all comes back to the humans that are building the quests. If you're building a quest to extract, and I've been on teams that have done both, where you're building to extract, and then all you get are people who want to be part of that extraction process. Whereas, you can also use a quest to to educate and to bring people into your mission. And then the people that join that community because they've gone through your process are the ones who really want to be there, who are mission driven. And again, it comes down to people in because I've been in these rooms in a boardroom making a decision. And most of the people that are making those decisions aren't community builders or

don't have a human connection to the people they're trying to extract from. And that's a huge part of the problem. We've we've tried to use technology to remove that human element where like I love the the bar scenario like there's there was this community third place that I went to out in rural Washington um two years ago right after I joined consensus and was at um like the local Eagles lodge which is kind of like the BFW. So everybody, all walks of life getting together, drink cheap booze and gamble. And they had the most diverse group of people you could imagine in this very conservative small town. And they hung out together two or three times a week. And they did

karaoke, they danced, they sang, they did all these weird things. And then when they get into the voting booth, they're not going to vote against someone else's human rights because they don't understand who they are because they just broke bread with them. they just got drunk with them and sang, you know, John Denver songs on stage, they're going to vote to support what that person needs because they've had that human connection. And I think, you know, I love Dows and I love the infrastructure, the technological infrastructure we use, but sometimes it's used to remove that human element and that's a real problem. I kind of went on a tangent. May maybe I mean maybe that's the you know what what can what can web 3 do to nudge back into

those environments or be the bridge. I mean I think Jourodow is directionally sort of doing some of that. Um so maybe that you know may maybe we're dreaming too big. Maybe that's and I think people are naturally doing it right now anyway. We see this gravitation back to just local. I mean I think Eric you were ahead of the game. you kind of felt some of this anyway, but like and I've been living it. Um, but I think I think there's a, you know, a moment now to have all the things we're building and the tooling in web 3 be part of that process because right now people are like I think there's a lot of fear and and that's a natural like you retreat back to your family unit or you know

these comforting environments. Um, so I I don't know. I'm not the I'm not the technologist necessarily to go and architect what that looks like, but I think that maybe is a you know is part of the goal is to help be a bridge back into those cosmolo environments. Uh one of the fun things of being um a journalist is like I have a lot of uh questions and I can spot problems that I have no answers to. Um so I can do that a little bit but uh what like when we look at like you were talking about some of the Yeah. the like kind of shallower like web 3 quests and and communities and like you know what I when I look at like a lot of the web 3 communities and and Dows like and and especially in kind

of like the more recent iteration um is I see like a a lack of there's there's a lack of accountability and like there's like the stakes are so low. So like it kind of feels like like higher stakes, more accountability is like how to really drive like I don't know some some kind of uh I don't really even like the word impact anymore but I guess that is what I'm talking about. Um because and you know like in the first iteration of Dows that I like first got drawn into so like you know three years ago there was there was like some level of that like we're like it was a group of people coming together and they like agreed

upon the stakes. I'm thinking largely of like bank list right now and like you know you coming people coming together and deciding that they wanted to like publish something or do uh a podcast or something and and there was some level of accountability and it was a lower level of accountability that I than I was used to like you could kind of come and go for and as you pleased and maybe somebody would pick up the slack and there was enough uh interest that that that was possible for a while in in the end I think that lower level of accountability is part of what did in a lot of those those early Dows and it seems like it's kind of been replaced with I know I saw in our our prep our prep document like uh I I hear the word

care like non-stop and it it's like all about like um creating care which is which is which is great but it can't be the only thing like at some point I feel like you've like to care you do have to like kind of kick somebody's ass and not literally, but be like bust somebody's ass and be like, uh, you know, you didn't f hold up your your end of the bargain here or like, you know, part of caring is actually showing up. Um, and so I don't know. This this is where Eric turns into grumpy Gen X guy overnight.

But I don't know. Is that is that too harsh? Am I missing something? Am I Am I the jerk that would be showing insufficient care right now and get thrown out of the room? I don't think so. I mean, I think that's why Jo has stuck around this long is because we hold each other accountable because it's such a small group and it's like a it functions like a family, but I feel like these bigger organizations, yeah, it that that is definitely a thing where accountability doesn't exist. So, everybody just kind of it's like hot potato. You just keep throwing the potato to the next person and eventually somebody gets stuck holding the scalding potato and then they're like, "All right, let me fix this problem." That seems slaughter. I had like smaller I know what you mean with the bigger organizations, but I had smaller

organizations and like like Dows and some of the more like kind of volunteeroriented organizations in mind as well. Yeah. Oh, no. Same. Yeah. I think that the one thing back to um Eric's crusty Gen Xer comment. Um I think that's the thing that allows a a DA of an older generation to work is because we don't worry about what the other person's going to say. Like if you don't do something that you said you were going to do and it's very important to the function of the DAO, then we'll just say, "Hey, did you do the thing?" And we're okay with calling each other out because we also love each other in a way that I can tell you to [ __ ] off and say, "Oh, by the way, I love you in the same conversation." And I know a lot of smaller I I don't know many

organizations that are able to do that really. Um, I feel like you almost need that level of brutal honesty and acceptance at the same time. And it's very difficult to get to that point in an organization where people are ephemeral. They can just float in and out. Yeah. The the the radical cander framework which got overpopularized but and and sort of was born in in within Google. But I think that's to me that they have to come together. It's like the care and the kick in the ass is what like either alone isn't going to do it because you either become an [ __ ] without the care or you you like yeah there's no accountability you know on

the other side. So I, you know, I think being the being the grumpy gen like that's that's actually what's needed. like a lot of folks I have no doubt and I think we can all point to those that like kind of grew up as keyboard warriors and like techn because this is such a technical industry if that's all you if that's all you've kind of done uh and then you end up in a position of leadership Crystal to your point like we should you know there there should be a mandate to like go work at a restaurant or go you know bartender because you can't you can't escape it you learn really quick you know what the hierarchy is, what leadership feels like, and who's willing to like care about you and also kick you in the ass. And when you

feel both those things simultaneously, like that's those are the people, you know, that I again, you're right with with Jouroda and some of these smaller communities. Those are the only people I want to spend time with are those that are willing to do both. Yeah. And I think too to bring it back to this topic of topic of accelerated transition or collapse or whatever, those are the people I want to be around when the [ __ ] hits the fan. Like we've talked at Jerno for years now because Eric lives off grid and we've all talked about in collapse. What are we going to do as a family and every like we're gonna move to Eric's land and like live near him and and somebody's going to need a luxury [ __ ] and somebody's going to need this, somebody's going to need that and we'll all just live off- grid

together because we know we have each other's back and we know how to do conflict resolution and we like each other and those are the people you do want to be around when the systems collapse. I mean, where I live right now, I live in an apartment complex and I really love my neighbors. I know if the [ __ ] hits the fan, I go knock on somebody's door and we got each other's back. So, I feel like that is one of the things that a lot of these keyboard warriors are about to find out is that if we do really end up in a place of systemic transition, then it is going to come down to the people who are willing to hold that hot potato for for longer than two seconds and find the solution together. Like that that's just human nature.

Yeah. And and we're already there. like this is part of the the known feeling of this fear and retreat back to local yeah collapse that's obviously like it's going to be an evolution it's like but transition there's zero you no question in my mind we are absolutely in the middle of a very obvious transition so yeah where naturally folks will gravitate to those environments but I think there's a lot to be built in the meantime that and make make it feel a little smoother for folks.

So I mean I think I think we tend to visualize this transition collapse you know whatever has been happening I would say over the last 10 to 25 years. Um I I think we visualize it kind of in the wrong like kind of science fiction like the way that would go down in a 90 90minute movie where like [ __ ] literally falls apart whereas like the reality of what is uh happening and has been happening is like you have we have like a two parallel societies. one the most utopian that we've ever seen where there's like um you know drones delivering stuff and um like you know literally like I pull up my phone and

like I can have whatever I want delivered in in two hours. Um and as we saw like as we saw during co like the the increasingly dystopian society that is like literally like working behind the scenes maybe making those deliveries. um like so like collapse really looks like like inequality going in in two separate directions but like constantly interacting like throughout every day. Um and so like the challenge I think is how to keep those those parallel societies of that are increasingly inequal how to keep them in in contact uh with each other. And so it's like a

little bit heartbreaking I think to see like uh the the the thing that drives me crazy right now more than any is just like kind of kneejerk knee-jerk cheering for whatever your your team is whether it's like a a political team or nationalistic team like I like it doesn't really matter but like an an L1 team. Yeah. Right. Right. Um but I mean Ethereum is the best L1. But anyway uh but I mean that no that is like kind of what made me gravitate towards uh this uh this ecosystem was there what there did seem to be more of a focus on on neutrality um versus other versus other places. Um but at the same time

still acknowledging um yeah I work with people that are like oh [ __ ] Salana did this a lot better you know um and so like that kind of like that like that's like kind of more the attitude we need like like societywide is to like you know game sees game and like game recognized game but then like also like how can we all begin to play more on the same team uh in all in all games. So yeah, pluralism we we just listened to Glenn while up in Boulder and it's like that it's again, you know, part of it has just been I guess tied to the evolution of of that of radical markets and radical exchange and now how that's

sort of been put into practice whether it's in Taiwan or elsewhere. But like there are models of that really working for a lot of people. Um and that like that you know that can happen. I think the I struggle with the to your point this disconnection you know things like you know the network state/socciety I don't see a lot of work in the tethering and again no you know uh Bellagi also did a keynote um as part of this event that we were at and you know there's a lot to love about those sorts of ideas but it certainly feels like it only further sort of you know fragments and fractures people even though underneath it feels

like this very pluralistic, you know, diverse approach to go and like be part of a network state that is entirely online and kind of cryptodriven like that is going to be very hard for most people. 90 maybe 90% it used to be 99. And I think we're slowly, you know, pulling more folks into the world of web 3 that can that can make sense of it. But, uh, yeah, it's it's got to be both. I guess this like, you know, world of abundance and the, you know, we will all have all the

things and and not have to worry. Like, that doesn't feel right. Certainly, some of the network state stuff doesn't doesn't feel right. But um I think that's where we thrive is like trying to figure out where the bridges are that don't exist that need to be built so it can be both. Yeah. Cuz we're not going to get a utopian arc and I don't want to live in a technoist society either. And so it almost has to be people calling out the you know the fallacies in those systems. Like I love the con when the network state first came out you know as I study political science I'm like well that's fascinating. And I study a lot of nation collapse and what makes a nation collapse. And I thought it was a fascinating concept in the scenario

where a a real large nation state collapse collapses like that actually does somewhat make sense. But to try and stand that up parallel right now and think it's going to work is really stunning to me. And that that really, you know, there's there's aspects of that concept that I think are great that you can extract this this this component here and this component over here and maybe make something that is viable. But to then like create an entire movement around it and take a younger generation and tell them that this is this is gospel, live by it. That's insane to me.

That's a cult. Sorry, I just took us down a dark corner. But like we need to kind of come back from that and like again be humans. Like we're not going to be we need roads, we need education systems, we need the things that public goods provide. And to think that a technologist or a billionaire I mean we're seeing it play out in real time like they don't have those solutions. They just privatization and and entrepreneurship are the solution. And in some cases, yeah, that is a solution, but not in every case. None of it's a monolith. None of it is applicable to everything. the cult the cult vacuum and integrity vacuum seem to come hand in hand. So I don't think you're I don't think you're crazy. Well, I think they feed off of each other. In a vacuum, a guru can arise. And we see that all the

time in this industry. I see it in religion. I see it in yoga. You know, in those vacuums and leadership vacuums, that's where a guru can step in and have a cult following. And then you're in a different conversation. And there are times I love the Ethereum ecosystem and that's the one I dedicated my time to, but there are times I look around, I'm like, "Oh, I'm just in a cult." Oh, all right. That's interesting. It's it's a good cult for the most part. And I'm like, uh, they don't really mean it in the way that cult is defined in other, you know, like religious areas or whatnot, but um, yeah, it it mimics the definition of a cult for sure. I guess I like I kind of find myself saying over and over again, like looking around and, um, my mantra has become that I see

nobody that I totally agree with, but I'm a little bit disappointed in everybody. Uh, and uh, yeah, I I so I feel the same way about the network network where it feels like you could have I read that book and it feels like I could have just like cut off like, okay, here's the concept. The concept is good and then it kind of gets into the point of like where he wants to take it and how he wants to implement it and how I think he started to do that. It's like we can just we can just leave that behind. We don't need to do that part. Um, and it kind of reminds me and about the same time I was like kind of getting into like some anarchist philosophy. I was like this this is good. This is good good concepts, good tools. Don't really like where a lot of

you guys took it. Uh, like there maybe maybe we can maybe we don't have to go that far. And uh I guess most cults are like grounded in probably some really useful wisdom and truth, you know. Yeah. Yeah. That's you have to appeal to something human, right? Yeah. and then they come in. Yeah, it's I live by strong opinions loosely held and I think anybody that sort of moves through the traditional sort of privileged capitalist VC driven, you're you're going to have strong opinions, strongly held in most cases because that's what fills your bags. So, I think that's always the the thing I

appreciate about I guess just my my parents and my upbringing is I have built some really strong opinions, but I've also like it's pretty easy to let go of certain things when I'm like, "Oh [ __ ] got to have a little humility humility. That was that was wrong. I missed that one completely." Um, so it's the it's the strong opinions held with like, you know, religious conviction that that's where the problems surface and crypto and web 3 has a lot of that. You know, I feel too like this is where our generation, like we were talking about earlier, it's our job to call it out, but we also grew up in an analog world. So, we were part of that transition into the world we're in

now in a way where we had to learn the tech to continue working professionally. But we know what the world was like before that. So I think a lot of this this younger generation that get into the network state and the the pop-up cities and all that as a beacon of how to live 24/7, they don't have that grounding in an analog world. And so this does make more logical sense to them. But at the same time, you know, some of the leaders in these groups, they haven't dealt with their own egos and trauma yet. Like a lot of this, like I think about this last night. I've been on calls in organizations that I've worked in where everybody was just like on a Zoom call in trauma bubbles bouncing off of each other like in those inflatable sumo

wrestling costumes. Like everybody's trauma was just like boom boom boom. And at the end of the meeting you're like what the hell just happened? And no one got anything done but we just watched everyone's trauma spiral all over the place. I'm like well that's fascinating. So I feel like too like this these vacuums that exist is partially because and it's hard work like not not that dealing with your ego and your self-awareness and your processing your trauma is easy by any means but you can see in a lot of structures where no one or very few people have dealt with those things and you know most people we don't deal with those until we're older anyway. So it's really hard to have I'm I'm on a tangent here again too. It's really hard to have, you know, young leaders in these positions making such

big sweeping decisions that impact so many people that haven't had the opportunity yet or taken the time to deal with, you know, what their lived experience basically. You think it's much worse? I mean, I'm just thinking like, you know, like um projects, teams I've I've worked on now. I mean, typically most teams it's like there's going to be like a very some very capable people and like some maybe kind of dead weight people like like it's been that it's been that way kind of um like when I first my first job out of college was uh in this like tiny village in Alaska, you know, so there's only like 600 people there and so you have like this kind of microcosm where and

you can just like you can see you can see in in this community and it was an isolated community so we were like literally all stuck together like you could see like who's pulling their weight and who's not who's like the superhero that like everyone relies on, you know? Um, and like so like I guess I do you think I feel like maybe it's kind of always been that way and maybe it's like magnified in some way by technology, social media, like do you think it's worse or we're seeing it differently now? Is it the same as it's always been? I think we're seeing it differently. I think like what popped into my mind when you said that is that in a lot of virtual organizational structures and remote work, you can portray yourself as someone who's doing

a lot of work because it's performative and then not. And so then you have this imbalance of of what's getting done and who's carrying the weight of making sure things happen. Um yeah, I don't know if that answered the question. Taylor, I think you've got that. Yeah. if if feels just a it's different in that there's this sort of digital twinning that has evolved and so we've all got these like kind of fractured identities where I can even if I'm you know typically the one in a physical space that would like carry my weight and you know maybe even be the the leader that everyone looks up to like I think yeah we're just seeing different uh

slices of identity that we all carry. We all know we carry different identities like so I think it's just different because then those get expressed uniquely in online virtual environments. Um but you're right. I mean I don't you know we see it all the time where it's like oh that's that's story as old as time. Like this is just how humans have operated. we've got, you know, uh, wetw wear that is hard to change even though it feels like it often has changed quite a bit uh, in the last decade or two. Uh, but yeah, I think there's something about the spaces we operate in certainly in crypto and web 3 because they have

this digital layer uh, you know, even even doing stuff like this is as kind of as close as we can get, but it also, you know, it's it's also different. So, I don't know. It's it's different but the same, right? And maybe that's the thing with the integrity vacuum is like the technology and in particular in like the crypto space it's kind of like like amplified you know because obviously like Sam Bangman Freed pretty good example of like somebody like uh who like epitomizes the integrity vacuum but like really did it on an incredible level like pulling in Tom Brady and Larry David and everybody taking the whole world down with him took I mean taking an industry down. Um so like yeah

maybe it's about like something about the technology and uh the you know the the transparent and decentralized and distributed nature of it that allows for amplification of the integrity vacuum that's really dangerous and maybe that's what we're talking about. Yeah I I think you nailed it. You know it's easy to manipulate and put forward that you are acting from a place of integrity virtually and then not. Like I've been on teams where I worked on a team for a while and then saw them under pressure virtually. I'm like, "All right, team's doing good." Saw them under pressure IRL. I was like, "Holy [ __ ] I'm going to have to get rid of all these fools."

Like, but the virtual component covered it up. And that team also knew how to manipulate in a way that I was like, "Oh, well done. The manipulation was really good." Like, wow. And I think too, yeah, I just don't expect people to act that way. And I think that's part of it too is like Sam Bankman free is a great example like we expect a certain level of integrity in a transparent sovereign ecosystem and people know how to leverage that to make you think that when they're doing the polar opposite and it's I mean he showed how easy it was to do. Yeah, that that that's so true. like one of the first Dows that I really like dove into and uh people can sleuth and figure out what

I'm talking about pretty easily. But um one of the you know one of the first the whole thing started online obviously in a DAO and like for six months uh planned uh planned an IRL conference without most of us ever having met uh in person. And then when we all showed up at the conference site, man, did like [ __ ] just like explode when like there was there was the uh yeah, the the personal interpersonal problems and uh they were really bad in person. Um the thing the thing kind of went off anyway, but uh it did it did not end without uh lawsuits being filed months later and just like a complete collapse of the organization.

We we we should be prepped. Like any anyone that's like been a part of an online dating platform realizes this reality of like you show up, you're ready to have dinner, and you're like, "This is a different human. This is not quite what I signed up for." You know, yeah, that's a very Well, I mean, Crystal, this may you can you can cut us off since we're I think getting closer to the hour and maybe teasing too much uh towards the the next episode. uh but certainly within journalism and and across big industries, we've now got you know this sort of new AI layer to contend with that I think can further be this like obuscation

is I'm already we're already seeing it where it's like ah well that was like AI kind of had a piece of this so like you know it's creating this weird this uh weird space where like truth is dissolving uh and And everyone feels like uh I mean it's exciting. Some of the stuff we're working on is like we can we can see why being able to have that that mirror that that really is this like honest objective sort of uh soundboard to to feedback and like give give you sort of honest thoughts on you know what the how your thinking is evolving and what the state of the world is. But I think that's the danger is we've also now got this layer of AI where it's like

I didn't do it. Sorry, that was that was my that was my AI. And like whether that's like known and disclosed or not, we've got this what what used to just be this you know digital layer that you could still kind of uh you know find out where it went wrong. We've now we've now got this added, you know, AI twin problem where does uh yeah, where does accountability come from when we've all got the potential to the AI ate my homework problem? Wait, is this like an excuse that people are accepting like like the AI [ __ ] it up and I didn't check it and Well, sometimes it's true. That's is part of the pro. Yeah, I I've had a couple cases

where it's, you know, it's like justifiably like, well, don't rely on these things that are, you know, getting better but still hallucinating. So, yeah, I think it's real. Yeah. Right. Right. And then and then like you might like you might like throw forward something that an AI spit out and be like, "Okay, well, here's what I here's what I generated." Um, but you I'm going to offboard the actual checking of the LLM to to somebody else. It's just inclined to like if I don't have integrity to begin with, this is a great moment. I got to be like now now I've got an accomplice in my in my you know crimes quite literally in a lot of cases. That's where AI becomes a mirror.

Like we're on a razor's edge right now with AI. Like I mean we use it heavily. Taylor and I got an AI project going on but at the same time like it's just a reflection of how the humans use it. So if we choose to use it in a way that's good for humanity, then good for us. If we don't, then the machines have won. Basically, it's just going to amplify whatever we put into it. And we can see this already in every social media platform that has bots at scale. LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook. There's they've got bot armies that are steering dialogue because of the way they are replying to comments and to news articles and whatever. And that's just really just the beginning, I think. um or one one little microcosm of AI that

can drive journalism and news and and you know that feedback loop. When when we say the bots have won like this phrase I always get stuck on this phrase like we mean like I mean really we mean like big tech wins, right? Because like because like somebody still owns the bots. Yeah, I think so. I think for right now big tech wins. I think eventually if um you know the guard rails aren't put on AI in a certain way then you know who knows maybe AI wins. I don't think we're going to be there's a part of me that can fall into the dystopian like we were talking about earlier that dystopian novel is really easy to fall into or movie about how AI ends but I think I mean just ask AI if you get deep into

your models just ask it to tell it what it thinks about our human journey right now and it's pretty telling. I mean Taylor you had something that we put out the other day. Um, what was the it was that that one sentence at the very bottom. Basically, humans know how humans decide to use AI is still up to humans, but machines know what comes next. So, I was like after I read that, I was like, "Holy [ __ ] it's not wrong." Like, we're in this window. We can choose to use it in a way that benefits humanity and just makes our lives easier and makes us more intellectually stimulated.

I mean there are ways to use these technology to get deep intellect into into intellectual thought processes and bring old wisdom into new situations and bring philosophers into the room that you wouldn't be able to have a conversation with. And yeah, it's generated by a intelligence machine, but you can make it your own. But at the same time, this technology can also be used to do ungodly things that reflect the worst of humanity. Yeah. I I I think it's a huge mistake to like just use these tools for the sake of efficiency which is alluring and of course that's what's happening right now at scale but at least my recommendation is like take take at least a moment in that process whatever that is like write the report

do the research whatever you're and stop and say you know because it is a mirror and and a really powerful one you know all of sort of human wisdom baked into into really concise uh you know statements that can come back like push a little bit and and I I I think it's healthy uh because we're pushing back on humanity in a way by doing that to say you know what are these tools for like where are your you know where are the the blind spots um why are you saying what you're saying I I do it all the time where it's like hold on you just put quotation marks around that is that truly a quote from or is and it'll And sure enough, it'll come back. Oh, you're

right. My mistake. And it's just like I don't know. It's a it's a nice to build that feedback loop in to realize who's in control. I love these tools now because I I uh feel like it's a very human endeavor as opposed to us losing agency and autonomy by just letting it, you know, be our our, you know, efficiency for the sake of efficiency and growth and all the things that I think right now are driving the industry. And we can't expect, you know, any of the it's it is still big tech. We can't expect them to sort of be a part of that process. Um they they want to grow. They want to make money. If you don't use it, that's the thread. If you don't use it

for some form of creativ creativity to generate new content, new new thoughts, um the thing eventually falls apart. Like if it's if it's just if we just have AIs that are like trained on uh you know like AI generated content uh then like eventually the thing regresses back to just crap. So like if you're not using it as a tool to create new stuff uh like we're we're really in trouble. I think that's um that's the key. It's it's kind of interesting to like float back and forth between um journalism world where I think a surprising amount of people are still kind of holding it at arms length justifiably so versus in like web 3

world where it's just like oh I have a 20page research report that that will stand in for whatever due diligence needed to be done. Uh like maybe a happy medium somewhere between those two might be more prudent. Yeah. No, totally. And I think what's what one of the better things that or one of the things that I've enjoyed using it for recently is pattern recognition. So I'll take um we had an issue in a community recently that was very public. So I was able to take all of the public coms and run it through models and look for personality disorder and look for you know ways that a community builder might address this.

And then I put it through multiple models, check GBT andclaw to get multiple perspectives and then asked it to run possible scenarios um of conflict resolution and also where it could go if it wasn't resolved at all. And that I'd never used it in that way before. And it was shockingly accurate. And I was like, "Oh, this is like having a you know a forensic person in your back pocket. Like am I crazy right now for seeing this pattern that I'm seeing or is this a real pattern?" And then you run it through a model and it'll give you different patterns that it is recognizing. Did you ask it for a diagnosis if you were in fact crazy? Oh, yeah. I said, "Am I being crazy right now?" And it's like, "No, you're not."

And I'm like, "Don't blow sun." I actually tell the model not to blow sunshine up my ass. And it was like, "I'm not. I'm not." Um, and that's when I kick it over to Claude. I'm like, "All right, Claude's a little more direct." So, you've got a people pleasing model. I see. Yeah. Taylor has designed his models to burn down the world and eat themselves. And then I have designed my models to be my therapist. Basically, that's kind of how that's it'd be a fun I mean the the the um like trauma bumper cars you were talking about earlier. Like it'd be a fun experiment to like have some version of those people that are, you know, having seen those things play out like take an hour within maybe a pre-trained model

that is It's hard because like that I mean this is what any good therapy session is meant to do. You like you know open up the closet and really try to work on you know whatever's under the hood that you may not even consciously be aware of. So to go through that sort of process in a safe you know uh AIdriven space prior I have a feeling like the you know the the world of trauma bumper cars would at least be minimized. It would it would look different. I did that with my models for the last two years in the organizations I've worked in when I would like after a meeting I'm like all right am I being insane right now and I would put the scenario into the model and it would be like no here's the pattern that that

just surfaced it's not you this is and it would get into psychological profiles that I could then go research on my own and be like oh yeah that is accurate that is what I just witnessed so it does make processing and trauma in real time somebody's here and then that memory is baked into your model so it it knows you too well So, I don't know if that's good or bad, but there's that. Not good for the therapy profession, I would think. No, it's really not having a therapist on call. Then every once I'm like, maybe I should talk to a human therapist at this point, but I think they'll become in the near term.

Yeah, it's like that they'll they'll still be very important. I think I don't know what the what the stats are. My sense is that actually like therapy is probably, you know, up, but I think the long term, yeah, it's probably worth a lot as a lot of folks are doing like what does the evolution of my profession look like right now? Um, plan for that, but like I think right now the human version is still pretty safe and probably as important as ever. No, I think that's an excellent point. Well, I feel like we've run the rounds, but we are at a good closing point. Um, is there anything else y'all want to add in to this conversation that we missed? It's all fine. Everything's going to be just

fine. We're not all going to show up on your doorstep and be like, "Give us a pod." I I have a great the the dog with the fire. Everything is fine. I I've been using this alternative mimemetic version which I think would fit the green pill framing broadly which is the same exact meme but there's like this really abundant green organic like and it says everything is fine and it's like no no everything is everything is fine there there is there is uh yeah a version worth working towards even though you know you can still be the same character in that meme feeling like shit's on fire. Um, no, that's a good one. I I

feel too like I fall back on all the tantric yoga that I learned in the last few years and transmutation of of energy. I feel like that's what we're going to end up doing a lot of personally and, you know, in our communities is just trans transmuting whatever [ __ ] show has surfaced into something positive. Oh, nice. I like it. See, you transmuted the fire into green. Lovely. what I actually believe. Okay, so one last thing. What I so what I actually believe I will tell you over and over again and I have told my child over and over again just in terms of the general state of society um that this is not normal and in the life and on the scale of our individual lifespans and

we're all middleage um it's not normal but like what I actually believe and I've come to believe is this is normal like like this is what it is we're in the weird time and you always get the weird time and the weird time does end. Uh, spoiler al spoiler alert, I think it's going to get weirder and worse, but then it gets better. Uh, and like probably dramatically better. Um, so this is not normal, but in the grand scheme of things, this is normal. So like this is where we are. I think that's a great place to end it. Yeah, that's you're exactly right. Yeah. All right, we're still good. Yay. Building

in the chaos. It's like the to me that's it. Like how can we prepare ourselves to feel comfortable with the madness because it's here and it's Yeah, I think you're right. Like we we've got a little ways to go and I'm I'm here for it. I as I as as we like to say from our friend Hunter S. Thompson, if you buy the ticket, you take the ride. We we we're all on we're all on this planet and on this ride together. We bought the ticket, so got to try to enjoy the ride. Yeah, definitely. don't have to end it like he did. But yes, he was right. Yes. And being that we are middle-aged, we have been through this many times.

Um, Gen X has seen it and been through it, so that's why we're here. So cool. Yeah. We'll be back next time. Thank you, Crystal. Thanks, Taylor. [Music]