Season 4 - Ep. - 1 - Exploring MyCoFi - Mycelial Design Patterns for Web3 & Beyond w/ Jeff & Jessica

Transcript

welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we're building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and we publish a season of five to 10 episodes every couple months this is the first episode of Season 4 the theme of season 4 is lean mean Capital allocation machines Capital allocation is the process of deciding how to spend or invest Financial Resources to maximiz returns and with web 3 we can now maximize not just Financial returns but we can achieve the meme of equal impact equals profit we can achieve imp ecosystem growth achieve public goods funding achieve protopia so how do we build

cryptoeconomic systems that precisely allocate Capital at scale what are the coolest experiments these are the themes of green pill season for lean mean Capital allocation machines and I've got a great lineup of around 10 different guests that are building web 3 era Capital allocation machines to share with you another thing that we prototyped in season 3 that we're going to continue for season 4 is that we are going to be allowing you to collect this episode so EP all episodes this season will be available on chain including this episode which is probably worth collecting because it's the first episode of Season 4 if you go to pods.

medgreen pill to find all the episodes and start collecting that's where we can get you started shout out to JT nickel to how. e to Sky . eth to zerox luucas Simon D.E they are the top collectors of the last season of green pill so JT how Sky Simons and uh Lucas thank you so much for collecting these episodes your support of the green pill movement means so much to me and to everyone else in the green pill movement Al righty the uh so if you want to learn more visit our website at Green pill. Network where you can download the green pill book for free join the Discord and become a member of your local green pill. Network chapter our episode today is with Jeff EMT and Jessica zartler the co-authors

of a new book that is dropping today on this podcast the book is entitled exploring Mofi my celal design patterns for web 3 and Beyond and I'm excited about talking to them because Jeff and Jessica just bring a deep knowledge of melium and mushrooms which are kind of like Nature's capital allocators and they are Translating that subject matter for a web 3 native audience so basically how can we leverage the principles behind melal networks and build better web 3 based networks from from them melium has been around for millions of years it's got the highest Lindy effect of any Capital allocation system known

to man because it is what terraformed Earth and made it available for life to start building on top of uh on top of planet Earth uh specifically plants and animals so basically the idea here is what can we learn from the design patterns of my cium and leverage that within the web 3 networks that we're building to be more regenerative and boy this this book go this book goes deep and Jessica and Jeff go deep but uh the one thing I want to say about the book is as someone who's part of the working group that was putting it together is that is so consumable if you download the book you're going to see lots of beautiful art from bu who is the uh illustrator on the project and LH who is the art director on the project just did a really good job of taking this deep

nerd snipe uh subject matter and making it consumable for everyone and I think it's just boy what a weird way to kick off season 4 of green pill on Capital allocation but also there's some deep wisdom inside of Mofi that we try to pull out during this episode and definitely recommend getting the book if uh if you're interested in this subject matter you can go to the link tree Mofi uh if you Google link tree Mofi you can see all of the links that are available to join the Mofi community and to download the book and to explore this really interesting weird and fun subject matter so um this is a fun episode to kick off season 4 of green pill without further Ado I think you're going to

enjoy this episode with Jeff and Jessica let's get [Music] started our guests today are Jeff EMT and Jessica zartler Jeff is a token engineering researcher at black science and co-founder of the common stack drawing inspiration from melal networks and biomatic processes he realized he is and always was a micro mop Punk and now there's a word for that his goal is to iterate towards a toolkit for customizable regenerative economies that support purpos driven communities and mitigate the excesses of modern capitalism Jessica zartler is in research and Communications at block science a founding Steward of the token

engineering Commons and a governance course author and adviser for the token engineering Academy she is excited about integrating Nature's wisdom in emanci I can't say that word emancipatory Technologies and their capacity to regenerate people in the planet Jessica is also passionate about storytelling as a path to reconnect to Our Roots and our hearts also uh not on this episode is Laura uh who was the creative director at Deep work studio and is previously at gcoin and at Google did all the illustrations for the Mofi book Jeff Jessica welcome to the green pill podcast how you doing really good good glad to be here happy Mofi book launch day Jeff you want to tell us what is Mofi and what is the

Genesis of the meme of Mofi yeah definitely uh so m is a prefix for mological or or melal um so melal Finance uh is is the short form for Mofi uh or the long form sorry um and it came about at um at a collaborative Finance conference so you know the memes uh D5 refi well now there's Kofi collaborative Finance which is all about um Mutual debt clearing in in Cycles between businesses it turns out we can save a lot of money just by clearing debts between um you know supply chain um providers and so on um and my Kofi came out uh during the Kofi conference as as

kind of a joke um you know I think it was Scott Morris said you know Kofi more like my Kofi uh and that really set off a light bulb moment and we really went down theout Abit hole of looking at Nature's economies and ecologies and how they are you know the original positive sum regenerative economies they're the reason that we have you know plants and animals and and arable land um back from when the Earth was just a a ball of cooled magma mushrooms have been really bringing this regenerative economic meme um forward to today and I think we can learn a lot from them uh taking it from here to wherever we're going sounds really interesting I think it's funny that it started off as a joke but it just kind of spread from there because

the meme was so good and um uh this season of green pill is all about uh we're calling it lean mean Capital allocation machines and so the way I'm wedging this episode in is that uh melium are kind of Nature's Capital allocators uh to the extent that you think about nutrients and resources as uh Capital uh I've I've I've seen and since I've read the Mofi book that that we're going to talk about in a sec that uh ecologies of forests can actually support trees after they're cut down by transferring nutrients to them in their roots and actually keep a stump alive for uh for several years and so thinking about melium as the highest lindsy Capital allocators out there in the

world was kind of kind of an interesting frame for me anything to add to that Jeff yeah and you know a lot of research has gone into this by a number of mycologists and and biologists Suzanne samard uh out in in BC on the west coast of Canada has been studying these nutrient Transmissions between different trees uh through mycelial networks um so kind of like you know Avatar with the with the um uh underground you know history of of their ancestry that's basically you know what's happening in in the forest is all of these nutrients and and multiple different nutrients and not just nutrients either messages are sent but from tree to tree uh and even in a directed way apparently they trees

can recognize their own kin um they can send them messages warning them about you know pests or or dangers um so yeah really these melium act as sort of like a distributed nervous system and an immune system for forest ecosystems um and and also very redistributive you know in terms of their um nutrients if there's a tree that gets a lot of sunlight they share their sugars with trees that get less sunlight um and there's this really interesting sort of like mutualism um or Underground socialism I've seen it called in a couple of papers that can I think we can learn a lot from in terms of how we can support thriving um social Fabrics similar to how mushrooms do it in in Forest ecologies yeah um well I

want to get into the book in a sec but I have one more question about these forest ecologies in uh the Paul stance documentary we it he he coins or he talks about this term of the wood Wide Web basically the idea that the communication structures of these underground my networks resemble the internet can you uh is that just a meme or is is there scientific truth behind that can you nerd nerd snip us a little bit about that because this podcast is primarily people who work in the digital economy and I think they might appreciate knowing about the wood Wide Web yeah definitely and and I think it goes beyond just um you know uh a bits passing because in in the worldwide web I mean generally we're we're talking about zeros and ones you know strings of

bits and of course if you have a lot of strings bits you can get very rich information um and and that is happening in in these mycelial networks but beyond the you know sort of one zero there are it's it's very pluralistic and there are multiple forms of value there are multiple nutrients uh there are even multiple methods of transporting so they have you know mushrooms well melium grow underground mushrooms are just the fruiting body that we see above ground but actually the organism underneath is uh is melium which is basically built in a tiny little tubes called H and they all Network together underground so if you ever pick up a log in the forest and you look uh on the ground under the log you'll probably see this almost white cobwebby type structure and that's the

the melium uh and the melium are interesting because they can transport resources but they also have um their own electrical impulses so sort of like neurons in a brain um so they're not just moving around nitrogen phosphorus sugars um they're also transmitting messages back and forth and making decisions over where to allocate and how to allocate and when to allocate These funds it's not just sort of a a dumb osmotic spread of nutrients there is routing there is information passing and there's decision- making happening in a um distributed Collective and it's interesting because there's no individuality in in mushrooms there's no like head neuron or head melium just like in the brain uh it's it's a

distributed decision-making system so I think there's tons we can learn um from the natural distributed decision-making systems and how can we improve you know Dow signaling Dow signal processing decision making in a collective so yeah I'm really interested in in all of the and and we don't know nearly enough about them um you know we've only categorized about 10% of mushroom species worldwide so they're still one of the least explored in terms of like you know the the animal kingdom the plant kingdom we've been studying these things for for hundreds of years the the Mushroom Kingdom really just just the past few decades I mean it goes back further than that but there's so much more I think to uncover here and I can add briefly to that I would just say as

well I mean nature speaks in in patterns um so if you look at lungs and the pattern of lungs or rivers or brains or the universe and galaxies um in the fractal sense un you know there's kind of this Universal constant of s similarity and um Nature's automation algorithms and we talk about that a bit in the book in one of the principles but overall in the book looking at the patterns and how we might replicate them in our web three systems for this audience but I think there's so much more to to unpack and explore together for sure well excellent segue into the book uh Jeff as Jeff and Jessica as I listen to you I can sort of just hear hear the enthusiasm radiating

outwards uh from you and uh I think it's really great that we've kind of like caught this lightning in a bottle and and put it into a book that people can read if they want to learn about these mycelial patterns for web 3s so tell me about the Genesis of the book what you were trying to aim with the book and you guys are both uh co-authors so so maybe I'll put that question to both of you go ahead yeah for me this has been such a learning process and an interesting creative process and I think what I'm realizing is I used to be a journalist and I'm really passionate about storytelling and how we can use storytelling to reclaim these lost archetypes and myths to help us integrate these parts of our psyche and a lot of this exploration that we are doing in the book it's not necessarily

new it's not some idea that we created um I think the mushrooms are kind of speaking through us in a way and I think that's what's really important about this is in our systems currently there's so many um we call them externalities uh but actually there are no externalities because we all live on one planet and we have these stakeholders in the systems that are not being represented um so I think looking at how can we give voice to the voiceless or how can we represent the signals of Nature and then um follow their patterns and integrate some of that wisdom into our system so in the book um we We Begin this exploration by looking at patterns uh we looked at the

network infrastructure we looked at the fractal nature we looked at uh adaptive sense and response um Dynamic flow uh we look at a lot of our systems in web 3 we have total value locked as our main metric what if we had total value flowed um there's these systems are alive their Dynamic if you start to read into cybernetics you see it's deeply connected with living systems and living systems biology um Mutual reciprocity we've talked a little bit already about mutualism and how um these Systems Support a web of life it's not like there's one well there are some species that are kind of out for themselves in a sense but in the the melal networks this is not the case um and then finally the

sixth pattern we looked at was polycentric pluralism um pluralism of course being a a rallying triy lately of radical exchange he's doing a lot of cool experimentation um and I think in doing research as well at block science some of our colleagues are exploring the capacity for our systems to have the level of expression or the capacity of expression to maintain heterogeneity and diversity as being a key for survival for us as we're facing these huge ecological challenges so maintaining that diversity of expression within our systems and our web through systems is so incredibly important um but also the capacity as you always put the memes out like it's all coordination um so how do

we coordinate and scale but also maintain the expression of the local um so those are some of the themes that we uh explore in the book and there is also beautiful imagery by LH the designer on the project and illustrator VI um they're not here today but just wanted to give a shout out to their beautiful work in this book as well Jeff anything to add there yeah yeah absolutely um so I think yeah Jess pointed out the six patterns that we um sort of identified in myal ecologies that could be useful in web 3 economies um and there's far more than six I think this was just you know the first uh the first six that we uh came up with and we looked at you

know how the mushrooms do it what the um you know what's currently going on in web 3 right now what projects are already leveraging some of these patterns uh and then you know what kind of future could be built uh in web 3 and Beyond using these patterns so you know looking at things like how mushrooms navigate um permissionless uh networks you know there's no um Gateway necessarily for a a hia to connect with another hia and then they just have to determine you know is this a good trading partner is this a free riter they have all these different strategies in nature for doubling down on successful trading Partnerships and pruning back the Free Riders um and again I think this is a lot of the same issues and challenges we see in

permissionless web 3 networks so really curious how we can um yeah learn and continue to learn from these myal networks and um you know propagate these patterns into web3 ecosystems where they can be useful uh for for various purposes in uh building regenerative economies so uh I'd love to take this this moment and just give credit to all the people that were involved in the creation of this meme uh I I know that you two are the co-authors on this I know that Scott Morris was involved in the creation of the Mofi meme LH and bu if you're listening thanks so much for the amazing and beautiful Inspirations that make the book so consumable is there anyone else that you want to sort of shout out in this movement uh that

that has contributed to this idea set oh definitely I mean the list is is endless um but I mean Paul stamitz was one of my biggest Inspirations getting into micology um you know Douglas rashoff uh was was around in the early days of talking about Michel punks um which you know solar Punk lunar Punk mop Punk um looking to figure out these um you know new memes that can carry forward uh these Aesthetics um I mean Michael zaram at block science has always been a huge inspiration uh and I think you know the mushrooms have been a really great analogy to visualize and conceptualize a lot of the um you know sort of polycentric

overlapping um complex networks um I think you know mushrooms are such a great analogy that are all around us in nature and we can see or think about complexity in a in a different way when we have these networks uh as an example they're already overlapping pluralistic polycentric um you know multi multi-unit um so thinking about web3 economies and and how we can move forward in a in a uh permaculture economics uh sort of way I think mushrooms are a fantastic analogy for that um but I mean most of the the the Deep research um you know Suzanne Samar Toby KS um just so many uh great

researchers that are that are really digging into the the meat of these mechanisms and uh I think we we stand on the shoulders of giants with a lot of this stuff and also want to point to indigenous ways of knowing and a lot of traditions who have long recognized that Mutual reciprocity and um this co-evolution and interdependency of all beings and kind of the shift from the anthropocentric to the ecocentric um and even this is expressed if you look at some of the um indigenous languages I was recently reading an article about law and um the language of anishinabe and it talks about how even in the language um there's not the same sense of objects that animacy and agency is

all relational and that's deeply embedded in the roots of the language um so I think we're kind of just remixing some of these ideas for a new time and for the builders in web 3 to think like a mushroom uh but I think there's also room to think like a tree or think like a bee or um there's a really cool book called honeybee democracy so I think this the seed of biomedics for web is really important right now because it is crucial that we connect these systems to the ground and really transition um we' we've seen this meme of D to regen and regen Network you know kind of being the OG and champing uh this amongst others uh

but it's one thing to conceptualize and another thing to embody and I think even in small ways for someone who myself I I didn't grow up with growing food or you know I wasn't connected to land and um I think a lot of us may be I heard it recently described as like a dislocation trauma and I've you know listen to a lot of U storytellers or or you know wisdom Keepers talking about this connection to to land and how important it is that we repair it so for us who are so up in the clouds and heady and conceptual and envisioning the future um I think stories are a way that we could kind of remember how to connect to the to the roots and to our hearts in order to um have this embedded and um and come

through in our systems uh design and Analysis I got to say that um Jeff when we first started talking about Mofi uh it at the Portland ethereum localism conference I think it was in Q4 of last year it just felt like there was so much energy coming from you um on it and one of the things I think was it was like really cool about this is that a lot of memes like the meme is just very surface level but but then I was telling my friends about this and I was like you know Jeff and Jessica they work for Block science they're like really deep mechanism in systems thinkers like PhD level systems thinkers and so this is backed by a lot of amazing science and biology in in nature and I think that

that's one of the the coolest things that I'm I'm excited about with the book here is that it's not only a really resonant meme but it's also backed by such solid science and and biology and um uh I I guess you know that's that's a launching off point for my question which is you know you you all are both really deep systems thinkers and have studied this a lot what's the coolest thing that you've seen in this subject matter like nerd snipe us and maybe Jeff you go first and then we'll go to Jessica uh sure yeah and I mean the rabbit holes on these just keep going um I'm I'm printing out you know a paper every couple of days on some new amazing mechanism that mushrooms leverage and I mean one of the the the latest I've been looking at is um how

uh hia both uh take water in through their root tips but also grow out their root trip tips at the same time so um the internal pressure of the hia is is something like the inside of a tire um so don't quote me on the numbers I should should look it up again but there's there's quite a pressure inside the hia um but at the same time it's growing and exploring in its environment so there's some um sort of like openness as it grows and this is the the key part of the mushroom because it's or the melium because it's following the the scent of food so it's kind of exploring through a 3D environment as it goes uh and actually I was just reading a paper that talked about a fourth state of water so beyond

um you know gas uh liquid solid uh there's a fourth state or or there's discussion of a fourth state uh where water becomes almost like a gel uh and it has to do with the um the positive negative um um ion ation when when you pack a bunch of molecules together at the at the boundary of the H um but so I need to read further about this but this is one of the the most interesting things that I've found recently is that there's potentially a a fourth state of water and that melium uses like electrostatics or or electromagnetic uh properties to um you know maintain internal pressure while still being able to build the hyle tip uh and explore further um so yeah just the um the physical principles that

are leveraged by mycelium are incredibly interesting um I mean also they're they're not um they're not Reinventing the wheel you know when you translate a lot of these principles into sort of human systems it actually starts to resemble Like ostrom's rules for the commons um so it it's really interesting to kind of have that um to to compare uh you know human uh social I mean socialism is is kind of a specific um political angle but mutualism I guess you know how do we uh move forward in um you know in abundance together uh and I think there's so many interesting properties that melium leverages and

then how do we translate those into human systems and sometimes it's it's kind of obvious you know that's like oh well Mutual reciprocity cooperation gets us further together um but it really helps when you see you know the billions of years of evolution uh of myum practicing these as you said earlier this is like very high Lindy processes this is what got us from you know Barren Rock to vibrant uh Lush Earth with all of these complex life forms built on top of these lower layers of cooperation um so I'm really curious what will happen in economic coordination if we can build these Primitives properly we may see all sorts of interesting complex economic life forms which really is like a a

collective of humans coming together uh and I think our current economies are not very Cooperative they're incredibly competitive and that's why we see this all the zero sum or even negative sum games but if we can leverage some of these properties and build them into the economic fabric uh of our longdistance coordination as a species uh I think we can we could do anything yeah oh there is so much um I think for me it's probably the element of regeneration and the capacities that are just blow your brain I mean they can eat plastic they can live in volcanoes they

can live at Great Sea depths in space um and I think the like just the sheer force that can be created from these networks um they have like thousands of G's of force when they release a score I had to go and start researching about GeForce and I was looking at that compared with what uh humans EXP experence in space travel um and there's a poo aomi word and we talked about this a little bit in the book um where mushrooms can actually fruit through asphalt and overnight so just imagine like if that gives some sense of the kind of force and the power that exists Within These beings um and the word is Papa which is such a fantastic word now

when I go into the forest and I see mushrooms I just imagine hearing like Papa Papa every time I I see them but but um as far as systems go it's just amazing how many answers that they hold when you start to really um look at the the qualities in the science and like you mentioned you know the mathematics um behind how these systems operate and and Paul st's research on micro remediation and how they they might help us break down oil Plastics they hold so many answers for us for these ma massive ecological crisis that we're facing so I think for me that's what's most exciting and it's so fractal you could you could ask any question to the mushrooms and they have an answer so when you said

mushrooms can pop through asphalt uh just reminded me of a meme that Jeff has shared of mushrooms popping through asphalt is the image and then on the top of it it says become ungovernable I thought that a that a pretty good meme I'd love to just play jazz from here uh what are what are the coolest things about Mofi that that you all want to talk about let's keep it going you know I just wanted to add one more amazing property of of mushrooms in general um which is a project between Paul stamats and and NASA at the moment um they gave him some moon rocks and they said Can mycelium break down moon rocks into soil and it turns out they can um so I don't know if you've ever seen this this Star Trek episode

actually there was a character on Star Trek called Paul stamitz he was a myologist believe it or not and they had a giant space inoculation laser and they would go around to planets and they would shoot this inoculation laser at a planet uh and then you know mushrooms would colonize that over millions of years and turn it into a a place habitable for life and I'm I'm curious you know how mushrooms can or or lyen um can serve so many different purposes in um you know not just outer space but you know they can uh provide food they can unlock nutrients in soil they can be um housing they're talk they're looking at like mycelium bricks insulation um there are

microplastics um you can do um um mushroom Dairy you can uh create melal Electronics um rather than like we have a big problem with um uh non-recyclable electronic components computers watches phones all that kind of stuff um we could in the future build a substrate of my fungal skin um which can serve as a its own battery because it works quite well as a capacitor and also as a substrate for chips um so you could have you know a wearable device that's that's based on fungi uh that is fully recyclable uh and could even possibly generate its own uh its own energy

depending like if we're talking small sensors and stuff like that but you know there's just so many different ways that these um tools can bring us towards you know a regenerative future mushroom batteries um way way better than lithium ion you know these all these um Teslas and what not exploding um lithium ion is definitely a you know questionably safe technology but there are mushroom batteries in our future um non- aquous Redux flow I believe they call them um which could be interesting for you know renewable storage and um energy sufficiency in in small communities so yeah just really interesting to think of all the possibilities Beyond you know medicine lots of uh penicillin you know

some of these uh Innovations for mushroom over the past decades but I think we're only you know the the tip of the iceberg and uh diving into the economics of it this is where I think it gets really interesting um how we can leverage the same patterns that they use for regeneration um to to help us and our planet um I think that's one of the core disconnects between humanity and uh and the world today so yeah excited to see what it can bring that's where I'd love to focus the conversation for the next five or 10 minutes before we break and um this season of green pill is all about lean mean Capital allocation machines and and sort of the idea here is that n melium is is Nature's capital allocator and it's got the highest ly of any system on Earth because Melia have

literally terraformed the Earth so that we could have life on it and so what are the patterns within mycelial networks that we could apply to web 3 Financial system so so yeah I mean what what say you're out there designing a capital allocation system what can you learn what can you learn from the mushrooms uh well yeah we have several examples that we dive into in the book and we actually wish we could have made it longer because there's so many projects actually that are already kind of embodying and exploring this principle um quadratic funding was something we referenced um as Edge based intelligence uh even if you look at the the data science graphs from um from that you can see uh very similar patterns to some of these mycelial

networks uh we also talk about Dynamic flow being a huge principle that's applied um inverter Network radical drips um the idea that this discret uh funding allocation is actually very disruptive uh there was some research about Dow toow collaboration mechanisms that block science and curve Labs were engaged with um that uh seated some of this radical drift also um was experimenting at the same time so from a few different directions people started to recognize how important it is to have a constant flow even if you look at nonprofit models many of them have switched to kind of subscription models as keeping the flow because when you know those are flow coming in you don't need to hoard resources there's always flows coming in going out um so it makes

it uh actually it gives the ability for projects to focus on work um or kind of creativity and research which is longer cycle work and then we talk a little bit about and happy to go in more detail on these as well about flowing governance uh rights we've seen some experimentation with conviction voting uh if you haven't heard of it there was some experimentation by several groups um block science token engineering Commons one high common stack that created the first instance it's a real time voting mechanism and we are still only scratching the surface in many of these Explorations um but the actually the if you look at the algorithm of conviction voting it's very similar um

as neurons firing in the brain so you stake a token and your conviction builds and then at a certain algorithmically determined threshold which can be you can set those parameters then the vote passes so you can use this for funding allocation but there's another application for dynamic average consensus so using it as a signaling mechanism so you can imagine this kind of like fluid democracy where you're having all these signals that you can read um so there's so much more to be built um welcome you know I know there's the the many hackathon so there's already some great open source code out there and then recently there was a collaboration between block science and Stellar development foundation and they developed neural Quorum governance uh

where you can you can uh allocate your Vote or delegate your vote to a group uh of again this is all kind of customizable but say you have a group of 10 people and even within those which are called neurons you can waight those based on reputation or subject matter expertise um so these are just some examples and we can go a little deeper into some of these mechanisms but um certainly you can easily look them up uh but yeah these are just some of the some of the early ideas and experimentation we need much more research funding and development going in this direction of flow governance and also flow Capital beautiful je Jeff same question to you uh I'm if I'm building web 3

Capital allocation system what can I learn from the mushrooms one of the most important lessons we can learn from the mushrooms is that there are multiple overlapping forms of value you know and um I think mushrooms are a great analogy for ecological economics and ecological economics is interesting because it's all about Cycles um where there is too much of a resource in one place it may be a waste product where there are too few of a resource and another place it may be a consumption product so the the real key is like connecting those two spots and this is what melium does is you know whenever there's a a forest fire or you know a tree falls down the rooms come up they digest what is no longer being used there they transport

it through the network and they make it available uh for somewhere else so I think connecting those Loops uh is a real key here and that's I think what local currencies do in a lot of cases um they you know so Grassroots economics or groups like circles um it's really interesting to me especially when people can issue their own credits uh in the Grassroots economics model it's basically you're issuing credits backed by your own capacity so if I can do 100 units of work then I can issue 100 credits uh and then I can trade those around and then I can do the work later and and earn them uh and I think that's a real key differentiation even from blockchains today I I think we're still in kind of the Mainframe era of of

blockchains you know it's back in the 70s 80 it was like you know oh nobody's gonna buy a PC they're gonna use my IBM you know and it was the size of a room and you know you wouldn't expect everyone to have one of those so you would use their computer and it's kind of that way with you know Bitcoin even ethereum today you have to you know you want to use that system or you've got to buy into that system then you have to participate uh and and it's great um but I think in the future it will be even more user Centric where uh if you are participating in your local uh Community your local economy then you are able to issue your own credits and that just gives this much more emergent uh capability for the supply to grow and Shrink as the capacity within that

community economy grows and shrinks uh and just makes it much more Dynamic um as Jess pointed out they can um just like the myal network grow to Encompass the resources that are there and and Shrink uh if there are not the adequate resources for for that growth and I think having that ability to grow and Shrink is also something that uh the blockchain space could benefit from right now we've got kind of this number go up everybody's happy number go down everybody's sad um but really the technology is progressing regard regardless of what the price is doing um so I think there's some really interesting opportunities to uh leverage even further take this uh further from you know the The single currency to you know a few currencies to thousands or or

millions of currencies because these all represent different value flows um and then linking them together in ecosystems that can circulate that value uh to who needs it I think this is what we're all heading towards with this technology so yeah really interested how what we can learn from from fungi um and Build a Better World thanks yeah I think this is especially pertinent right now because uh many projects have created their token models as a static token model and now we have the capability especially with some Primitives like bonding curves we have Dynamic issuance mechanisms uh where you can have this adaptive breathing economy because what economy is so still that it never changes as far

as demand and Supply or as far as production if you look at even like cyclicality um people are maybe traveling this summer aren't you know doing as much work so we need this capacity to have Dynamic uh breathing economies and there's already cryptoeconomic mechanisms that exist that can help us to do that um so I think that's one of the big shifts is coming into Dynamic token issuance as far as capital allocation well this has been a lot of fun I find myself pulling so many different threads whenever I talk to both of you and the nice thing about the Mofi book is that we now have a nice resource where we can think about melium and what they have to teach us about Capital allocation so uh let's spend the last five minutes talking

about the book it's dropping at eth Denver we're recording this the Friday before eth Denver and um by the time the listeners are listening to this it will be live so um where can the listener find a a copy of the book uh yeah I believe it will be dropping at um a gitcoin event on Saturday February 27th um correct me if I'm wrong on that um yeah so looking forward to to dropping the book there uh there will also be an nft uh campaign coming out alongside it um so yeah really excited to to engage with people I you know I feel like Mofi is just this huge unexplored area um and we need way more people to help explore it um there's so

much more um interesting properties of mushrooms there's so many uh interesting web 3 projects I mean not even necessarily applying mycelial principles but a lot of them them look like it if you if you hold them up side by side it's like oh wow some of these things are are already you know moving in that direction um so yeah really really interested in how we can um connect the Two Worlds um one of the the memes that we created was you know One does not simply become a mop Punk one can only realize one was a mop Punk all along and I think there's a lot of this um these regenerative principles and practices already in in being used in the web 3 space and I'm really curious where we can continue to connect uh and leverage

the knowledge building on both sides uh to to move forward into a world of uh permaculture economics and yeah I think I'm excited to see what will emerge from planting this seed uh or I suppose spinning this first highl thread because the nature of mushrooms is that you know they go over long distances and then fruit somewhere um so it will be interesting to see what fruits from this uh this book uh and it's about to be Papi so pretty excited uh overall and looking forward to hearing people's ideas and how they might connect this to their own research or the projects that they're working on um so that we can continue to explore

this topic and learn think like the mushrooms do and uh create beautiful systems I love it well I I just love the Mofi book I've read it a couple times uh in preparation of this interview but also just because it's such nerdy dense subject matter it reminds me of The Vibes that I first got when I first released green pill and I feel like this is like 10 times more detailed and 10 times more nerdy so uh excited to see what comes back and what kind of community forms around the meme of Mofi and thank you both for for uh you know let for writing the book for for letting us get a window into your brains I think it's been a lot of fun so uh let's wrap the episode there and uh for the listeners you can find links to download and purchase the book in the show notes

be the best $20 you've ever spent to learn how uh mushrooms allocate Capital thanks again Jeff thanks again Jessica thank you much so much for having us and thanks for uh for hosting us on the book it's it's been wonderful uh collaborating on this and looking forward to more Al righty we just heard from Jeff EMT and Jessica zartler the co-authors of exploring Mofi melal design patterns for web 3 and Beyond I am just so excited about this book I think that we're bottling up Jessica and Jeff's deep knowledge about melium and adding some really great illustrations from bu and LH and just launching the meme of Mofi out into the world and it's similar

Vibes to when I wrote the green pill book and and put it out there for me uh although Mofi is much more deeply uh referenced and backed by science and green pill is kind of like a a mile wide and an inch deep I think that uh the the Mofi book is like is like a mile wide and a mile deep it's it's really dense stuff but it's so cool thanks for listening to the green pill. network podcast again we are building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world like Jessica like Jeff like all the mop punks that are out there Building Systems that are inspired by Nature if you value our work you can collect this episode go to pods.

medgreen pill to find all episodes and start collecting while you're listening please check out the Mofi book in the show notes and please make an offering to our algorithmic overlords and remember to subscribe rate and review signal to the network that the green pill network is something that you want to build and that we are green pilling the world thanks so much for listening see you next time peace and [Music] love for