Season 3 - Ep. 6 - Novel Forms of Impact Attestations

Transcript

[Music] welcome to the green pill. network podcast if you're just joining us we're building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers focused on using crypto to bring positive sum digital systems to the world this podcast features the people who are doing it and we publish a season of five to 10 episodes every couple months this season is impact season how do we manifest the meme of impact equals profit what are the most interesting experiments in Impact tracking how can we build cryptoeconomic systems that elevate impactful Builders how do we move from virtue signaling to cryptoeconomic proof of virtue these are the themes that we're talking about in green pill impact season another thing we're experimenting with this season is that you can collect this episode go to

pods. Media green pill in order to find all the episodes including this episode and start collecting our guests today are bit Beckers John Ruth Lao na ma and Devan meta uh bit Beckers is from raid Guild and hypers I've collaborated with him in a couple times on some getcoin related things John Ruth comes with us comes to us from spark Echo solar foundation getcoin colel and dream Dow lowu comes to us from the impact evaluator metrics garden and heram Governor Dev Devon is the captain of voice decal work excuse me workstream lead at arbm Treasury and is a

2023 ethereum Foundation fellow um at the next billion Fellowship so in this episode we are talking about novel novel forms of impact tracking what are things like hypers Sears and EAS and how can we self-report impact in a way that actually helps the ecosystem Elevate the most impactful Builders instead of just the builders that are the most present or the best marketers and I wanted to have each of these panelists on the episode because I think they each bring a depth of experience and vision as to how impact at test ations and uh impact tracking could evolve in 2024 in crypto and I think that when we put a lot of their thoughts in the out on the table

in this episode kind of start to play jazz together we start to compare and contrast different ways that this could break and different ways that uh and I mean break as in like uh evolve together in in 2024 so um really excited about creating momentum around novel forms of impact attestation and impact tracking in 2024 and I think this group pre presents a pretty solid aperture over what's going to happen there so I think you're gonna enjoy this episode what's up y'all how you doing doing great great thank you doing good let's maybe start with some quick intros John let's start with you and go to bit Beckers Laura and then Devan yeah my name is John Ruth um a core contributor at getcoin as well as

the founder of spark and uh super excited about impact as a whole yeah I'm um B I'm bid Becker or can um I'm a core developer at the hyp protocol and a contributor at rild Dow and then a bunch of other things as well um hi I'm Lau I'm an adviser to different web through protocols I work spe primarily in Impact evaluation I developed the impact valuation framework for optimism rgf3 and also the metrics Garden yep so hey there my name is Devan and uh I'm right now I'm a next billion fellow at the ethereum foundation applications are open for the next cohort so please apply and I'm really working on how we can evaluate impact of

Journalism and bring onchain media how we can incentivize investigative reporters amazing so the theme of the episode actually before I get into that uh I should give uh my my co-host for impact season an opportunity to say what's up what's up Carl how you doing hey everyone what's up really excited to see all of you here it's been incredible watching each of your projects kind of evolve over the course of the year so excited for what we're going to discuss on this SE totally so the name of the episode is novel forms of impact death stations we are here to talk about all the ways that we can bring impact tracking on chain and then from there once we validate that the impact is happening and that it's legitimate how do we fund it Carl what's exciting to you about this category of impact

outstations and what do you want to get out of this discussion one of the things I'm most excited about is that being able to measure impact has historically been this thing which requires a lot of expertise and a lot of um kind of you know building up a reputation and being really one-of a kind in being able to use that and assess impact and typically in the real world there's a huge amount of money that flows to Auditors and certifiers for that service what I'm most excited about is that each of you are contributing towards projects that are trying to democratize that and give more people on the long tail the opportunity to do their own impact measurement and evaluations the hope of course is that that we can actually

aggregate that and use that to provide much better sense making than any one centralized party could do so I'd love to explore that great well uh let's maybe go round robin through the guests one more time and then I think on the second half the episode we'll start to play jazz together um I'm curious what standards or Trends people are excited about and maybe we'll go backwards from the order that we did before so Devon will we'll start with you and then go to Lao so go ahead yeah I think the most I think the trend I'm most interested in is the fact that you pay for impact after it's been achieved uh the full meme of retr pgf and especially how we can actually apply that to the real

world and to real journalists like you know like we have this meme going on in web 3 where it's uniquely uh where it's uniquely advantaged because people are Anonymous in web3 or pseudonymous so they might take your money and go away so rewarding impact which is already done is the Smart strategy for the web3 culture we have but how do we now take this culture out into the real world I think that's really what 2024 is like should be about go ahead Laura yes so there's at least two particular things that I'm very excited about one is EAS and the use of attestations in such a flexible way to track whatever it is that you want so like I've been working with particularly communities that are

developing real life events inperson events whether it is to onboard people or host events and then they issue attestations on how people interacted with whatever it is that they were building at the event whether that was a workshop and how to issue their own attestations like that was one of what our communities did and they received an attestation back from the people that went to the event so it was like you start building these interweaved atesci that demonstrate more impact on how the technology is being adopted how it is being used and then like attestations as I said overall just give so much flexibility on what you're tracking whether that is data whether that is private data uh and there's so

many different Logics that projects can play with which I believe is essential when we're talking about impact because impact is going to look very different for every project for every program that is looking to generate impact and you want to enable projects to do their job as best as they know how to do it without imposing this is how you measure it this is the tool the one tool that you use because that is the only thing that works for me and the second one is there's a project which hasn't yet started being using for impact evaluation or um tracking but it's called TLS notary which enables people to migrate web2 data to the web 3 like it creates this stamp of verifiable

extraction of web to data that's going to make a lot easier for projectss that are already tracking the impact that they are having with web two tools to breach that information into the blockchain so others can review it um and then the last one I would say is like the metrics Garden so the metrics Garden is this repository of metrics and tools that projects can use to measure what their impact is like a big gap that I found is projects have a problem in identifying what do I need to measure like what what is impact what are the things that I need to be measuring so as long as we make it easier for them to adopt metrics that's going to make our

request of getting information easier as well thanks so much bit Beckers you're up yeah so I think what what I'm excited about basically pulls these points um all together I've been working on hyp search for a year and a half and at the beginning it was a very novel idea to start thinking about like a standardized unit to talk about uh impact or would it won and when um and now as I go to more events and the people that I talk to it's becoming more at least in our bubble it's becoming more like oh we have hypers search but then what do we need and one of these biggest things is at station so we can really start leading into these market and funding flows and for me as a developer it's really exciting to see that um I don't feel like like I'm in a red race against

another protocol it feels like we're all building like one key component in the in this Lego set that we need to have um and that everybody's building as everybody's aiming to try to build a solution that's flexible for multiple use cases so I really feel like if in the next year we can start converging all these Tech stacks and say like okay this is how you can play nicely together so now other people can start building on top of that I think that will be the major unlock because now we've done we've minted tens of thousands of hypers certs but at the moment they're just a badge and when we start playing into these mechanics they really unlock I think they will unlock really interesting mechanics John take us home yeah I think to to kind of thread the needle on several of

those points I I've been really excited about in the last year and a half of all the claims of impact uh tools that we have so hypers certs obviously leading the way and Karma has kind of come in in in recent times as another potential claim of impact uh but we really haven't seen any uh robust tools for review and evaluation of that impact and and as we look at how we turn into this meme of impact equals profit I think we'll get into that more in the episode but there really is this three-sided marketplace where you have to have claims of impact you have to have some sort of valuation of that impact and then you're going to have a third side where that market actually comes in and buys that impact and so what I'm really excited about as we move into 2024 is to

start to have that evaluation layer uh layering on top of all of these claims of impact to give them real value that we can then build a robust market for um both for incentivizing people to to create impact but also to buy impact and and to to Showcase that so that's I think really where where I see us heading with all these tools and and I think that interoperability and the fact that we are all sitting on calls together regularly is is what's going to help us win and build that much faster because we're all talking to each other we're not competing thanks John Carl next thought or question to you yeah I guess we're all familiar with the xkcd cartoon which says there are 14 standards I'm going to create one that unifies all of them and now you just have a 15th standard and I think that

what we're attempting here is not to create another monolithic schema or one schema that is able to conquer the world but really create these modular components and so I'd kind of be curious to to go a little bit deeper into some of the specific use cases that you are looking at because ideally what you have is a set of building blocks a set of tools that allow you to create some um you know Define some basic parameters but then for each of your use cases you're actually able to go as many levels deep as you need to in order to Express what impact is most relevant to that domain um so I know Devon you've been really looking at this a lot recently maybe you go first but I'd love to hear from others yeah so I think like it goes back to how you define public

goods and the definition that I use is quite mathematical which is a public good is value creation minus value capture so even if you're a VC funded project but you're creating more value than you're able to capture like you're fine you're still a public good um so kind of how does it play like if I look at the nonprofit world uh something which is very popular is hiring these Consultants who write a report whether where the main tagline is for every $1 donated to us you generate $8 in benefits to society or you generate $7 so that's like it's called a benefit cost ratio so something which I've really been looking at for this meme of impact equal to profit is how we can actually get scalable benefit cost

ratios for any project or any product or anything that's built and then it just becomes a matter of matching them up that if $1 given to you generates $8 of benefit let's get to the remaining $7 as well so that's the approach I'm taking and a lot of and the specific tactic we are using right now to take it is uh training an AI or llm with a large Corpus of these case studies by Consultants where they do this analysis and then we give it a new case study and say can know perform the same analysis again so that's kind of in a brief what we are working on thanks anyone else have a comments on that I guess I can jump in here for a minute oh go ahead k no uh John then bit Beckers go ahead slight lag there um I think in terms of

I I really been focusing on this in terms of real world impact and I think this is really the the unlock to connecting um you know Real World um projects and problems to to all the tech that we've been building and so I start off my my career goes back into solar energy long before I was was into crypto and blockchain and so uh for me specifically I've been had this lens of like how do we begin to evaluate the impact of solar energy projects but that's really expanded into uh Nos and nonprofits in general all of them have one thing in common and that is that they're trying to make some positive impact in the world that's why they set up their NGO their nonprofit and so for me it's how do we begin to unlock these

tools where they can begin to um really make claims and and have proof of the uh impact that they're making in the world in order to uh begin to shift all the funding that's already going into those places into more of a retroactive funding model where you're actually making impact in the world and then you're monetizing that impact instead of going out and making empty promises to um to donors in the hopes that you make impact and so I think that as we begin to to flip that script there's there's just all this Capital out there that's already giving to things that they don't know the impact of and so I think if we can begin to use these tools to paint the stories and the pictures of the real

world impact that people are having then we can um you know really really unlock and and maximize for impact out of those dollars is really my my high level thesis is that we really can um you know better coordinate that capital from the donor all the way down to the impact um and so yeah go ahead Ken yeah well maybe to follow up on your your point I usually the narrative that we're doing right now is focusing on retro pgf which I think it makes a ton of sense because you can at least start thinking about what has somebody done can you show me what you've done I'm expecting you to have some data available and that solves the whole problem that you need to start trusting somebody about on their pretty blue eyes or something else and you're

like oh you know that's why I'm going to give you money but I think it depends on the where you are in your project how we can make these things play nicely together because if you're let's say you're a project that has delivered something and you have veriable verifiable credential or adest stations on chain then it's probably also more likely that in the next round you can get something without actually having done something so you can move the data points from retroactive funding into a process for proactive funding so if we start all these things start playing together and I for me that's not like the next step but a step after the next step then we can thinking about okay what have you done and why should we give you more money or money for a new

project or incentive and I think um that's that's something also should be taken into account also working on reputation systems yeah I think I'm I'm going to add up to that um it's really important I believe to think of all of our public goods funding mechanisms as a spectrum like there's several I don't think while I'm a huge fan of retro pgf I don't think that everything should be retro pgf because that limits then who is able to to generate impact like I will need to have money to Kickstart this and showcase that I've done X Y and Z which puts a huge barrier of entry for so many people in the world right so what we want is building this reputation as be Beckers was saying you build

reputation that you can attest to with either previous work that you've done with other people vouching for you through the impact that they've received maybe outside of the web 3 space but they are testing for you on chain which lets others query that information and then you can start building and get some funding um and one of the other things that I believe is really important in terms of like how is how are attestations being used what are the different use cases and deep diving into them is I believe we need more tool Whisperers um like these are people who understand what are the existing tools like what can you do with say hypers like I remember talking with biters like oh have you tried doing this thing with

hypers certs have you tried doing this other thing with hypers certs and people are just unaware of what these tools are capable of like are they flexible enough for anyone to use them like what are the Bas use cases for the specific tools and if it's not either the ones that have built the tools or people that have interacted and looked really really deep either in a hackathon or in some other experiment like is this the tool that I could use for x y and C it's going to be very difficult for projects or communities to identify that this is the tool that I can leverage because communities and projects usually don't have time for that they are too busy generating the impact that we're asking

them to build so that we can give them funds so how can we make it easier as a community as an ecosystem for them to measure what is the impact that they are having with the tools that are already out there yeah I just want to weave a couple of those things together here because I think there's something really important here about how we're able to hel projects bootload a reputation while at the same time not creating huge barriers to getting started or getting going and I think you're absolutely right low that like the tools are going to be really critical the ux of going from an unknown project trying to build reputation to one that is recognized unanimously as a very high impact

project is what's going to Make It or Break It for many of these things um What analogy I'll give is from micro Finance where they looked at back in the day how banks used to evaluate creditworthiness of a loan applicant and you'd have this lengthy due diligence process where the applicant would have to provide all this information give evidence of how their business was doing and at the end of that all they were getting was a relatively small loan they flipped the process by basically saying if you show up then you basically qualify for a small uncollateralized loan and if you pay a back that is the reputation signal that you are now credit worthy for a larger loan and so just by doing that they were able

to help people bootstrap this credit reputation creditworthiness and at the same time solve the problem if they were there one hot take is that it's all retrop pgf and you were rewarding literally the act of showing up if you've shown up if you had the motivation to come and apply for something that should be enough for you to get $100 and get started and if you come back and pay it back then that is the you know reputation Builder that you are now ready for a $200 loan and so on yeah just quickly add one point uh in like relation to Laura and what you said which is the amount of time spent in fundraising I worked for five years at a nonprofit and kind of the joke was that 33% of your time is creating impact 33% is applying

for funds and 33% is managing the grant that you already have so I think like what retr pgf can really do is just make you spend more time doing the actual thing that matters of creating impact and the tools are doing it for you all the admin work and the application work so is that the is that the sort of vibe or the thing that we're going for going from 33 33 33 to 955 um is this how we approach the meme of impact equals profit I I certainly think it's a part of it that that when we start to flip that script yes there is more work for the impact maker but they're saving all that time in fundraising so it it means that we have to create a robust enough market where they see that if I spend the time doing

this I can then just plug this impact certificate into this Marketplace someone's going to buy that because there is a a you know you know because there is someone that that really wants to own that impact that wants to brag about that impact that you know for whatever reason they see value in it but if if we don't have the other side then then that's where I think we we can't flip that script but in my eyes yes that's 100% the the where that's how we maximize the impact for the dollars that go in because if if now the same nonprofit can spend 95% of their time making impact and 5% of their time uh you know actually monetizing or or or selling that impact if you will um all of a sudden the amount of impact that

they can make is is uh 34x I think that's a really important part there's also another part that I think is often missing which are the definitions right like there is a def there should be clear definitions of what impact means for the different players in the ecosystem because then you can also be a player that is generating impact some or generating a contribution that to your eyes is impactful but no one else in the market identifies it as impactful so even if you're measuring the impact you're doing the job no one is going to pay for your impact and it's going to lead down the same circle of like well why am I measuring it if no one is buying it and it's like well that is because the impact that you're generating is not aligning with the

impact that someone else is looking out there looking for out there so there has to be like for this Market to work there has to be clear definitions of what is the impact that we're trying to get people to build like I think again sort of like optimism with Richard pgf has been doing a really good job in terms of outlining this is what we find valuable so please go ahead and build and we'll see you in the next R pgf round I know that hypers was is was also one of the things that they were pushing for it's like have companies generate this hypers certs that are Promises of paying for impact that others have built like promising to pay for impact that others have built so you're already signaling what is the

kind of work or impact that you want to see out there but we still have a lot of projects that are giving funds or looking to give funds I think maybe that's the best definition they're looking to give funds but they haven't given anyone a signal of what is actually valuable to me like the grants that I've given before are spread all over the ecos like the table so maybe this is impactful maybe this is not impactful so there has to be clear signaling for projects to get started in building what potentially will be impactful for others and they will receive funds for that um so so yeah like definition of what is impact for the different parts and then also the

understanding of again that not all Impact is created equal so how can you build the systems that are being built how do we move for example from only measuring or only building tools we specializing in tools that are building the impact of Open Source projects to building other tools for educational projects for Community projects so that because those to be quite honest I find that those are the ones that are hardest to measure and we will need to do a lot of iterations on okay counting the number of people that went to your Workshop is not enough because that doesn't tell me anything about whether

they learned something or like they're actually going to see in the ecosystem how do we also start integrating more complex ways of measuring like longitudinal studies in such a way that as Devon was saying it's not going to take 40% of your time to measure what you're doing how are the tools that we're building for impact evaluation reducing the amount of time needed from this projects that are already resource constrained to demonstrate this is what we're doing yeah I think that's one key constraint there I was just going to say it feels like a constraint there is that these projects are already resource constrainted and adding more admin work

or what feels like admin work before they get their first funding from minting a hypers Ser or an attestation is a hard Hill to climb uh sorry who's who had just spoken up and was going to go it was me but my uh I was coughing at the same time so um no I think I think Laura raised a very interesting point um and I think from my perspective because I'm of course primarily a developer I think there are two perspectives it's the technical and it's the user Journey so in on the technical level we're building um we're building composable protocols that are trying to not optimize for a specific use case but try to facilitate a certain aspect in this process right it's not the 15th standard like call said before but it's about not needing one stand up

but just having like a Proto like maybe like a a meta protocol and how do we coordinate impact claims funds evaluations and those kind of things together I admittedly we're very very early in this when we really want to do these kind of things on chain but I think where EAS and a project like dery is very interesting is that they allow for very flexible schemas but you do have a central point where to find them and as is for instance when hypers as a protocol supports EA s or ES at the stations that means that the marketplace or communities or op when they do the next pgf round they can think about okay what is the data that we expect what do we want to see and how do we want to do

this and even then you're not refining one specific standard just saying like oh these are the most popular ones but if you have a a new one or you want to have like something specifically for your use case we are open to that because we know how to handle the information flow the the problem here is is that I need to name five or six different products that people need to gr to get them to the point where they can contribute that where they can join this process and they like oh but I do let's say the beach clean the the classic the classic one I do Beach cleaning why do I need to look and then they said okay get your funds on op start minting on hypers cert here's EAS here is AD Jason schema I think you lose

people at hypers or you lose some adj schema somewhere in between but they're already gone so we really need to like help them right so people like Carlos or Laura are really are really good at helping people get in there and just holding their hands and running through all the steps but usually as a developer I feel like we're at the point where we have all these protocols like you used to have for email that people need to think about their email client on their machine what's SMTP what does my email provider support uh where am I those kind of things and suddenly there Gmail and it just works and everybody can get a Gmail and you can just log in and you can go through all the steps um but I think we need to First figure out how we can do this uh information flow and when

we have that knocked out then we can start building these gills and in between we need the Carlos and the luras and all the other people that are so so very busy with handholding people to guide through this process time check we've got about 15 minutes left before we're going to have to wrap uh Carl you want to take the next question sure um just building on what Kevin said there I would say that if you know a year from now people are still needing to interact with the Json schema if that's like something that the end user needs to know then we we failed here we definitely need to abstract all these things away um just giving some sense for how these things can stack together the hypers CER represents a way of saying here's some work that's been done it's a container for that work and then

you can stack all of these different impact ABS stations from a variety of different sources on top of that so it could be a project self-reporting and saying here are some of the things that I have collected myself about my work and why I think it's impactful it could be a community that's benefited in some way looking at that and saying here's all the different ways all the subjective ways that we benefited from this and then it could also be a third party which is really specialized in looking at these projects and saying we're going to offer our assessment as well you stack all of those things on top of the hypers cert and then you now have this amazing ability to actually look at that impact ideally in the context of other projects that are making other impact claims hopefully that is something that then funders can

use as a signal for what to buy what to support because ultimately they should want to fund the things that are having more impact um the last thing the cherry on the top is that a hypers actually allows you to give rights and finite ownership to those impact claims so again you start with the work you layer on these different impact claims and then you can tokenize the whole thing and that becomes something that can then be um distributed it can be it can be owned it can be uh transferred to people that that value that impact and that's ultimately what a sophisticated impact Market might look like but where we are today we need to get users to start using these things stacking them together and getting less hung up on what the schema is which ipfs

gateway to use and all these other ux things that we're struggling with currently um I kind of be curious to to maybe uh double click a little bit on on what you've been doing John because you've created a really interesting way of trying to stack these different components together um with the work you're doing with DAR yeah thanks um yeah a couple things there um you know stepping maybe a little bit back to to what you were saying Ken is um you know all the tools that I'm trying to build right now I'm trying to build as general as possible I think because we really don't know what that end user how that end user is going to use it how evaluators going to use it um so have really strive to to make things as

general as possible so that they can kind of be used in a lot of different ways so um and I think that hypers sear has done that well uh in terms of being this Bas layer that you can make any types of claims with um I think that's the way that these are going to better interoperate but um yeah with with Dary we we set out to to create uh an open source protocol that allows you to evaluate really anything but then in this second version that we just recently released we've really honed in on hypers certs and how can we allow people to evaluate mostly the um uh qualitative impact of a project uh I think we're starting to see some tools for more of the quantitative impact and

uh I'm excited about some of that coming out as well but I I think what what you pointed at Laura in terms of like evaluating communities education some of these I'll call them softer sort of tech or softer projects but not in a bad way but just they're not they're not they're not code so you can't just go to a GitHub repository and determine you how active are things or how much is something being used um and so maybe stepping back to to try and dig in there that with our products we we see this as a way to begin to prove the claim that is made by hypers cert so hypers CER says we went and we cleaned up a beach and we collected 10,000 pieces of trash how can we allow then individual users

or individual um contributors to then make that that claim that yes I was there I picked up a 100 pieces of trash um um and so we created this layer that allows you to create uh forms for an individual to fill out that you know or are General in the sense that they can be any any questions that you would want to ask that person on the beach that just cleaned up the trash maybe their name how many pieces the trash they picked up Etc maybe they took some pictures so it allows you to put an attachment there too then what we did is to bring all that onto EAS so I know we've mentioned e a few times but we uh really saw that what we needed to be able to do is make attestation of that evaluation that that's really the core building block that's going to start to

connect um evaluations of these claims together uh and then maybe I'll one last piece and then I'll I'll I'll pause there but we're also building a product called impact scribe which is sort of a container that allows you to hold claims and proofs of impact so the idea is it allows you to Mint a token bound account an nft with a token bound account where you can hold your hypers cert and then all of the assort associated proofs of impact whether those are quantitative or qualitative as nfts within that kind of container or folder if you will in that wallet and so by pulling the claims and proof of impact into one main certificate we think that this is going to unlock the ability to then trade

these these uh these sets of proof and claim of impact because I think we have to connect those two together into one Central object that then can be traded on a Marketplace and so that's where we then hope to head from there is to build a Marketplace for these impact certificates and I think one part one really nice part that is also being enabled by the DC protocol is that you want to start having people find Value in evaluating other people's impact and attesting to whether that is accurate or not and like build a reputation on top of that because then that's how you get more people involved in verifying okay did this impact actually take take place

is there value in that I put time into verifying that this event happened that this number of people attended that this group should be getting funded versus this other group whom I like they didn't do what they said that they would do I think similar to what we were saying in that projects need to find Value in generating the information whether that's like data in the sense of numbers or qualitative data that spans not just in one Snapchat out of time but throughout time they need projects need to find Value in generating this information for others to consume but then you also need people to find Value in evaluating whether that impact was created generated or not so that the

system becomes more robust so we're not only relying on what the project said that they did but what other people are attesting to I think there's like as we as we continue to strengthen and flesh out this Marketplace there's all of these different participants for whom we need to generate the right incentives to participate in the marketplace and generate the value yeah I think one thing I want to just like connect both these thoughts of John and uh Laura was that um the real distinction is not between soft impact and hard impact I think the distinction is really between impact which can be verified online versus impact which needs to go into the real world to verify so something like

an event in a community like you actually have to go in some way to the real world and go and verify that um whereas something like open source code or software or even like investigative reporting it can actually be verified online so for example like Ian Allison's story on coindesk which broke the full FTX uh kind of Scandal that you can actually verify it on its impact online by saying okay it was published on this date a court case was filed on that date and you can actually track the full impact so I think that's kind of Point number one and that ties into what Laura said about uh actually getting humans to come and and crowdsource their own evaluation into it which retr pgf is amazing at you take over Twitter for the time that it's live um uh so that's so

so when impact can be verified online you can also crowdsource evaluations of impact so you can I have like and the best example I'll give before handing it over is Belling cat so Belling cat is like a media Outlet which uh verifies things like you know supposing Russia claims that uh the like Syria like the that the US launched a missile in Syria on so and so things so bellingcat has a community of evaluators who actually goes and looks at geoca the missile impact which way it came from so like so I think that's a great community of crowdsourced valuators and I think that's what we should be eventually optimizing to yeah I think one thing you were point at Laura is that we we often forget about the valuation layer in

terms of like how we're going to compensate that we talk about how we're going to build up impact of uh certificates on one side and the um you know the market for them on the other side but here in the middle you have to compensate these evaluators as well so I it's almost in some sense is a three-sided marketplace where you kind of have these uh people that are making impact people that are evaluating that impact on one side and then the market on the other side uh but how you incentivize both of those to make sure that they're they're happening I think is a unique problem that that uh adds to to the uh overall problem all right we got 10 minutes until we are out of time to record so uh let's try to land This Plane I'm wondering if there's anything that I

didn't ask that that you want to that you want to say um and maybe we'll start with with John and bit Beckers and go R from there so John not to put you on the spot anything we didn't ask you want to say uh you may be on mute I can't hear you I'm not sure if it's me H there we go um I I think the one piece that I'd like to leave folks with is this idea that we can begin to more effectively coordinate Capital to impact and I think in the the Trad traditional sense we've see this funnel where we have this funnel where all these billions of dollars or funds are going into making the world a better place and trickling out the bottom and just barely making an impact because they're just not efficiently coordinated from the time that somebody gives money away to the

time it actually makes impact so if we begin to flip this funnel over I think that there's this potential where we can build all of these these Legos that we're each building and coordinate them together and stack them together all these money Legos to where you have this funnel that's upside down you put the money in the small side and then it actually coordinates itself out to the other side bringing back this this analogy of nonprofits out here actually spending 80 90% of their time making impact and 10% of their time fundraising instead of the way that it currently is so I think that you know in terms of how we get to impact equals profit I think that the coordination mechanisms that we're building right now all these tools are really we we're going to be able to coordinate this capital in a way that we

can maximize the impact and then really solve for big issues like climate change is you know the one that hits home for me but so many big coordination failures as You' mentioned many times on this pod before can be solved with these tools and so that's the big Vision I guess I want to leave folks with love that bit Beckers you're up I think I'm in the simil SP Spirit as John um for for me what be what would be a real success medic of the things that we're doing is the communities that already exist and being able to empower them by using the tech that we're currently building and getting them more more finances so for instance uh of funds so Belling cat is a very interesting example because they do a lot of uh let's say very interesting Community journalism and very strong

edge cases but we also have like M ma massive volunteer networks all over the world that they're doing so many inting things for so many communities but at this moment I wouldn't ask them to get a wallet and get started because it's really difficult to get them there but but when it becomes almost second nature I will I will be very satisfied if I can walk around where I live right now and just go like hey have you have you thought about all the work that you're doing and how I can help you get more funding and then that it's to joint's point it's almost natural that you just start registering and then suddenly things just figure themselves out for you they amazing thanks bit Beckers uh L AMU you want to go next

yes um I would say that while modularity is super important I would exort all of the people building these different tools to think of specific use cases so that people on the ground can identify this is what I can use and then also identifying who are my um who are the projects that are already cheering on my technology how can I best support them so that they become my spoke people so that they get others in their same trenches to adopt what I'm already using how can I also get in touch with them to learn how can I make my product better so that more people start adopting it again sort of like going back to this

point of we need to Whisperers that can get the message out there that the technology already exists and if they've already gone over all of the different hurdles to use the technology how can I Empower them to talk to others in the language that they need to be addressed so that they can start using these tools deash go ahead yes I think the one question i' want to leave people with is how do we price impact um even like with the upcoming launch of the hypers search Marketplace even in retr pgf we sometimes see the problem of over allocation that projects get more money than it actually cost to produce that impact so should impact be priced according to cost price plus x% should

it be priced according to impact and outcomes on society I think that's something which as a space we need to Define when we talk about impact equal to profit are we pricing it for the impact or are we pricing it at Cost price thanks so much Carl I'm curious what's on your mind as we're closing the episode yeah I guess just a a few messages that that are on my mind and I'd like to share with listeners um number one there's like a mindset that uh public goods are for nonprofits and nonprofits are things that don't actually make any money and shouldn't make any money I think we need to shatter those myths I think that number one we need to get the message out there that impact should equal profit that's what we want to build we actually want the most talented people in the world working on solving

these problems and they should be rewarded for that number two that public goods they create this immense value we can all feel it we can see it in our communities we can see it in the things that we interact with and the only thing that makes them struggle is that they don't have a traditional way of capturing that value they create immense value but they don't have a good built-in value capture mechanism and so therefore we need to come up with new ways of funding these things and the more we can do that the more the quality of living the quality of all the different things we interact with is going to improve to do that we need to actually be on the front lines we need to have uh projects and people that are building with those users in mind and figuring out how do we make

this not only two or three times easier but 10 times easier so the first way that you are getting crypto in a new person's hands is because of the impact that they are having because they are showing up they're being recognized for some contribution theyve made and that is how they bootstrap themselves their reputation and getting engaged in this economy uh so I really hope that the big Focus for 2024 for the for the year that we're just starting right now is getting out there and trying to find as many use cases as possible where people can actually start getting paid for having an impact and that is the only narrative that they need to uh that they need to care about um because if you do good work it's going to get recognized and

you are going to get compensated for that AE you're muted damn 160 episodes and I'm still talking when I'm muted um I was just saying it feels like a lot of the things in crypto are reflexive in which perception of momentum creates actual momentum and that creates more momentum and um it feels like we're in this place now where we've got all the Primitives for impact we've got impact tracking which can track the supply side we've got the demand which is rpgfan gitcoin and hypers certs and um and now it's about creating the network of of reflexive action where people are using them and that creates more expectation that this is valuable which means more people use them and so part of what I why I want to do this episode was to instigate that cycle um and to I guess

my prompt for 2024 is if you're listening to this episode if you're into green pill or regen or whatever the meme is how do you contribute to pushing that cycle for forward and and getting it off the ground so um hopefully impact season will be one small one one small push in in getting that flywheel going well uh this has been a fun episode for me so thanks to everyone for joining looking forward to following each of your projects there'll be links to each of your twitters in the show notes and we'll see you all in 2024 all righty you just heard from our guests today I'm excited about impact adest stations and how all of these different projects that are represented at the table can interoperate together once we start using blockchains to track

impact thank you for listening to the green pill. network podcast again we feature the people who are building a coordination a network Society of thousands of hackers dreamers and doers who are focused on using crypto to bring positive sum impact to bit Beckers John Ruth laau and Devon uh as well as my co-host Carl really exemplify this movement in its best form um while you are here you may as well collect the episode you can go to pods. medgreen pill and collect the episode all proceeds will go to public goods and while you're here please remember to subscribe rate and review the podcast it really helps build the movement it really helps others find the greenfill podcast all right peace and love see you next [Music] time

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