Scroll zkEVM LIVE on Ethereum

Transcript

hey bankless Nation it is the rollup Wars on today's episode a new player has entered the chat scroll just released their new ZK evm to mainnet and we've got the co-founder of srel and a senior researcher from srel joining us today to tell us what that means David what are we talk talking about yeah scroll is a pretty hotly anticipated layer 2 it is a ZK evm layer 2 and so with all of the optimistic Roll-Ups already deployed and pretty decently along in their maturity it's time for the ZK EVMS the ZK rollups to enter the arena uh scroll is a unique kind of ZK evm it's got some extra bells and whistles some unique properties that make scroll tick uh so we're gonna ask

Sandy and togle about the unique properties that make scroll so interesting and of course we'll eventually get to win token at the very end uh speaking of unique properties you know what has unique properties David tell me this podcast right here and uh also the jacket that we were looking at okay this is a su Jan jacket Sujin Sujin okay I don't even know I don't even have one David but you do I do I do I got it right here uh this is available to a bankless listener to who who fills out a survey actually call Action is we have a survey and we need fill out you get the you might get the jacket if you fill out the survey but the main thing we're talking about is the survey that we need to fill out I started with the jacket but David

starting with the survey and that's the thing all you have to do is fill out the survey and you a chance to win that jacket David why are we doing this survey uh because we have a new podcast format that we want to bring to the table an unreleased podcast uh type of podcast but we want to make sure that we are actually on target with this so we're Gathering some data about who you are Bank list listener what kinds of podcasts you listen to what kinds of Bank list podcasts you listen to to or maybe you listen to all of them wow uh and just kind of a background about yourself and so if you want the bankless podcast to tune itself to a little bit more towards your desires or maybe you just want the jacket uh fill out the podcast survey yeah it's not about the

Jack it's about improving the podcast everybody yeah do your do your public duty thank you bankless listeners fill this out there's a link in the show notes if you want to go check that out you should take like five minutes of your time no more uh than that I'm sure David why are we talking about scroll today t episode for us a little bit more so the ZK uh evm roles are kind of like Wars are are kind of off um and uh you know rollups in general have been climbing up the leader board on L2 beat so a lot of them are are trying to gain market share what is special about scroll and uh why are we bringing them on the episode today yeah so I'm I think I'm really excited to ask Sandy and too about this um I think there's like a

spectrum of difficulty of rollups uh optimistic Roll-Ups are like pretty easy as in just like you know fork and replace the evm but now as a layer two then we kind of get into the ZK Roll-Ups which it with like polygon and ZK sync which are like rollups but ZK but with scroll we're on entering like a new frontier which is evm equivalent ZK rollups which is a pretty hard thing to achieve yet you get a huge amount of Tailwinds if you do get that and so that's going to be I think the main focus of some of my questions is what do you get with a ZK evm why do care about scroll what about scroll has set itself apart from its competition uh so that was that's the the thing to pay attention to pay attention to as we go

into this episode so guys before we get into this episode first we disclose David and I are both Angel Investors in scroll we are big fans of many different layer twos out there and as a reminder we are long-term investors we're not journalists we don't do paid content there's always a link to all of our disclosures in the show notes bank.com disclosures all right guys we will be right back with Sandy and tole but before we do we want to thank the sponsors that made this episode possible including our number one recommended crypto exchange that's Kraken if you don't have an account what are you waiting for go create an account Kraken Pro has easily become the best crypto trading platform in the industry the place I use to check the charts and the crypto prices even when I'm not looking to place a trade on Kraken Pro you'll

have access to Advanced charting tools real-time Market data and lightning fast trade execution all inside their spiffy new modular interface kraken's new customizable modular layout lets you tailor your trading experience to suit your needs pick and choose your favorite modules and place them anywhere you want in your screen with Kraken Pro you have that power whether you are a Season Pro or just starting out join thousands of traders who trust Kraken Pro for their crypto trading needs visit pro. cra.com to get started today cell is the mobile first evm compatible carbon negative blockchain built for the real world and now something big is happening introducing the cell layer 2 it's a game-changing proposal that's going to bring cellos rapidly growing ecosystem home to ethereum vitalic has shared its

excitement for the cell layer 2 on the cell Forum so has Ben Jones from optimism but why the cello layer 2 will bring huge advantages like a decentralized sequencer offchain data availability and one block finality what does all that mean Rock Solid security a trustless bridge to ethereum and more real world use cases for ethereum without compromise and Real World Adoption is happening active addresses on cell have grown over 500% in the last 6 months with the cell layer 2 gas fees will stay low and you can even pay for gas using erc20 tokens but cell is a community governed protocol this means that cell needs you to weigh in and make your voice heard join the conversation in the cell Forum follow sorg on Twitter and visit c.org to shape the future of ethereum Bank list Nation I'm so excited

to introduce you to Sandy Pang one of the co-founders of scroll the ZK scaling solution that we're talking about today and also toal Mar marov a senior researcher and rollup sorcerer also at scroll Sandy tole welcome to the bank list how how you guys doing hello hello hey guys good to be here okay so the news today is that main net scroll mainnet is live that's pretty cool congratulations how does it feel Sandy how's it feel to have finally had mainnet live yeah it feel feels amazing almost surreal this has been kind of two years in the making and um the team has really pulled together for this very big milestone and I think for for for for any kind of product team like the big product launches really just the

beginning this is the first time we get to really meet our customers and meet the deps and get real feedback so everything feels much more tangible and you know just like anything we do it's just great when you receive um feedback and and and and hopefully that will help us iterate more going forward and tole you've been at scroll for as long as I've known you uh but you also pay attention to the entire rollup landscape and really just crypto at large maybe you could um just do the job of articulating why this is significant uh in the in the broad landscape of all layer tws all types of rollups uh why is this main net day unique I think I'm gonna come off a bit biased here I think you're allowed you're allowed to do that yeah that's

permitted I'm happy to do that so uh so one of the things that we concentrated on since the beginning is maximizing compatibility with ethereum and at the time when this was just getting started almost three years ago this was almost an insane idea I remember talking to a few people in like 2021 about potentially building a Zeke evm that is evm equivalent or compatible and they were like yeah those people are just scammers it's never going to work and yeah it it basically started as a v a wild idea that transformed into something that is finally alive on the main that today and it's been a long

road a tiring Road I think we all need a sleep a long long sleep tonight after after the launch but yeah but but we're happy that we're finally on the on the arena playing learning in the arena ruin that phrase but yeah no I remember like yesterday when we first met Togo I think the team was just eight to 10 people and we got introduced on the internet and um and I think most people thought we were kind of a joke because it was just so far-fetched but tooll decided to join us after a 30 minutes call he was just like yo yeah we basic he's been yoloing ever since on Twitter we basically signed the

papers the next day after I had a call what was so compelling about that too yeah uh I I think for me was the idea that the scroll aimed to be as much compatible with ethereum as possible and I always thought of rollups as a great extension of ethereum and that just made a lot of sense to me and I always thought of ZK as a more long-term play versus something like optimistic rollups which were more of a viable short-term solution but longterm I feel like all all of the optimistic rollups are going to transform into ZK rollups so it just made it clicked from like the first time I had a call with Sandy and

yeah why is uh evm equivalence so important like you mentioned it's this idea of an extension of ethereum right I I know some rollups have gone in a completely different direction they're like hey you evm sucks we're swap we'll just settle on ethereum and call it good yeah but but uh scroll is with the strategy you guys are doubling tripling down on ethereum equivalence why so I feel like for me the argument was always what's the purpose of rebuilding everything from scratch and re-ed educating people and helping them learn a new language a new programming Paradigm Etc where you can use something that has almost 10 years of

documentation 10 years of tutorial 10 years of Open Source Code and doesn't matter what you want to build most of the things already have been obviously not everything but like a lot of the building blocks have already been built out by somebody else and it's easy to learn so solidity you can't even compare solidity to any other smart contract programming langu anguage because it had such a had start and therefore it just makes sense to reuse something that has been widely adopted vers versus not only trying to optimize it but also trying to attract people to actually learn and build with you that new VM and the new programming language which is a very

hard job and only a few have succeeded since ethereum in doing that one of the compelling things about rollups and you alluded to this is that it's an extension of ethereum and really the maximum uh the maximally uh mature version of a rollup is one that has zero compromises with ethereum can you just talk about the value of this and how scroll is playing in that Arena sure I think some of our initial thesis was that um which we still hold today is that I think ethereum is the most decentralized and the most secure layer one and it has this incredibly strong strong kind of social layer built around it and that means many many uh very convicted people and um idealistic

and also creative people just very strong talents from around the world who are committed to this ecosystem um for various reasons and um for us that was the most attractive thing about the community and we wanted to build something that meets developer where they are already um we thought it was somewhat unrealistic to kind of force developers to learn something new and we wanted them to kind of Leverage whatever they've built over the last couple of years um because when Protocols are battle tested when they're used by many many users and when brands are established within this Arena these are all things that are valuable and we want to preserve it as much as possible and I think with these major building blocks that is also the best jump start for the

next iteration or the next Innovation to happen um it didn't really make sense to kind of reinvent the whole ecosystem every time there's a new L1 it's much better better to kind of encourage people to be creative and to to to build the next generation of things um through through fun and play and part of scroll's role is making that whole setup much more accessible and accessible means a number of things it means being cheaper it means being faster it means faster finality and it also means maintaining the highest possible security standards and um so in in in in that effect I think scroll is somewhat a

little bit later to the main net launch compared to the to the other ZK EVMS but we've been in test net for 15 months and that means a huge number I think something like 90 million transactions accumulated and something like I think definitely more than 20 million unique wallet addresses on our test Nets and all of these adds up to a more um you know a very battle tested you know battle tested and um and we've conducted full audit with um four esteemed audit firms and internally we've always had a red team and blue team set up in order to check the you know cross check our work um just the amount of precision that goes into building the ZK evm is

absolutely phenomenal I think one day we would love to have Heen and and and Peter from the engineering team to come and and talk about exactly how much like detailed and granular work it takes to kind of write ZK wrappers around every single kind of evm off code yeah you you mentioned the ambitiousness of what it takes to make a ZK evm that's evm equivalent to ethereum uh I mean there's already been a handful of ZK EVMS that have shipped mainly out of ZK sync and and polygon but these aren't the aren't exactly what Scrolls building Scrolls going I think kind of doing the hard thing of doing the evm equivalence with the actual like bite code uh equivalence which is I think

where it collapses down to if my technical chaps are serving me well here um and you like you alluded to it that's that's harder and that's why you know Scrolls the the latest of the three the last of the three but to articulate the bull case for like evm equivalence is that well while the ethereum ecosystem has developed while scroll has spent the hard work of becoming e an evm equivalent CK evm scroll gets to right in the Tailwinds of all the Innovation and development that is going on in parallel can you talk about the like the big important things that scroll is able to repurpose that your typical ZK evm wouldn't be able to repurpose in its ecosystem so one of the goals that we had since the beginning was to reuse as

much code that has already been built for ethereum and battle tested as possible obviously there are still a few changes that we introduce here and there to optimize things but the goal was to instead of building new clients building new tooling building everything from scratch and then having to audit everything having to run bug bounties for everything we just reuse stuff that was already built for ethereum modify certain things optimize certain things but we have this surface area that is much smaller in terms of new code being introduced on the client side for example so in our case we currently reuse g a slightly modified version of G but we can also adopt Aragon or nethermind or any other execution client

easily because we're compatible with the execution trace of ethereum so uh that allows us to not worry about that side of things and only worry about the bridge the prover and the sequencers and and the efficiency of the rollup and trust and rely on the existing battle tested code to basically carry on what ethereum has been doing great in terms of being stable being secure and being immune or almost immune to faults and holds if that makes sense it does is it the case that um all of the things all of the apps that work on ethereum now

kind of work right out of the box on scroll or is there any kind of modification a Dev or a building team needs to do in order to to make it compatible with the scroll 99.99999% of the apps will work out of the box so the only thing that we currently don't support is self-destruct up code and the reason why we don't support it is because ethereum is planning to deprecate it soon okay and there's no point for us to support something that is going to be deprecated let's say in half a year or a year so I think everything works in effect yeah and um our our our main net slogan is called copy paste and deploy to so you guys are encouraging copy paste huh that's not what we mean what

we mean is that whatever you've already built that deployment process is super easy and seamless and having that setup it means it's less point in building copy and paste projects because it's so easy for projects already established to come on scroll yeah that that seems like a a superpower so in all of the ancillary um infrastructur as well work so we're talking about like wallets you know like a you know metamask or block explorers like an ether scan it all just kind of you know Clicks in and works without modification correct y yeah that's um that's really cool so tell us about this rollup itself so you know why are we doing rollups in general right we're trying to scale ethereum okay so what what does that mean for something like

scroll like how many I mean how do how many ethereums is is it inside of scroll like how how many ethereum uh main Nets are we talking or like what's the transactions per second that that scroll can kind of support I realize these are sort of imprecise types of ways of measuring it but maybe then the question is how do you measure it uh how much scale are we actually getting out of scroll um so I think it's difficult to say the precise number in terms of TPS but you could easily estimate that if we remove the bottlenecks related to ethereum so like data availability etc etc we can easily do in order of magnitude and

probably even more than that without having any issues there are obviously other things that we need to optimize that we still inherit from ethereum so one of the problems that we inherit as every other ZK roll up does is State growth and so essentially at some point we're still going to have to solve it but because we don't need to optimize for like raspberry pies that's not such a big issue for us as it is for ethereum and therefore we can squeeze out a lot more performance and because it's done off chain and it's the computation is only essentially done by one prover it's the the cost per user is significantly cheaper because it doesn't trans you don't have to ensure that it's rep

replicated among thousands or even tens of thousands of full nodes okay so order of magnitude more in terms of uh scalability then and then remind us why that's the starting point that's the starting point yeah it's gonna get better okay what what's it going to be getting better with like the next EIP that um you know uh allows for BL blob space on ethereum is that is that going to help um scroll at all regardless regardless of ethereum level upgrades um there are plenty of optimizations that we could be doing and there are a few lower hanging fruits that we will be getting to in the next three to six months and um I think we we can expect scroll to be in order to organ manage

who F at ether in meet and its current form within like the next year um yeah it's uh it's funny I I know you mentioned at the very beginning uh you guys mentioned I think tle you're talking about this where um back in I don't 2020 2021 it seemed like um a a ethereum equivalent ZK evm would be years away in fact I remember like a a blog post from vitalic where um he talked about how far away it was like this would be nice you know one day but it's probably many years away and he was talking like five to 10 years kind of uh timeline and it the the ability to actually develop a ZK evm it felt almost like a Sci-Fi Tech uh and it was I mean I remember coming away from that post

and other conversations about this this weird ZK evm type thing thinking that oh that'll be nice one day and and describing almost as like the Holy Grail of ethereum scalability and now here we are like we like we've made it can can you refresh us on the um why ZK is uh the direction like why why is it referred to as the the Holy Grail what benefits do we get from ZK rollups versus say you know our optimistic rollup cousins there so there are multiple things that that benefit from ZK so one just to establish the basics here a lot of people when they hear ZK they they just

automatically think privacy but in reality the reason why we use ZK is not for privacy the reason why we use ZK is that the modern proof systems have this property that we call we refer to as succinctness which means that you can verify them much cheaper than what it took to compute them so essentially you can think of like a very costly execution and instead of re-executing that entire execution you can just verify one proof and it is it essentially it is essentially equivalent to just recomputing that cost the execution and you can see how you can gain a lot by just Outsourcing that execution to one or two full nodes that do the execution then they compute the

proof for it propagate the proof to everybody else and everybody else can just verify the proof and they're done they don't need to reexecute anything they don't don't need to verify anything Etc aside from that proof and on top of that you gain from the fact that uh ZK allows you to have faster finality relative to optimistic rollups because the way optimistic rollups work is they assume that you're innocent and they're you proven guilty and there's the bridge allows a certain period of time for anyone to chck Challenge and to prove that you're guilty so essentially the state that you posted is incorrect and usually that challenge window is

measured in days whereas for ZK rollups the finality time is measured in minutes because as soon as we compute the proof we can just publish the proof verify it and that's it we're done we don't need to wait for anything and therefore you can see how the how z uh using ZK we benefit from both outs by having the computation outsourced a few large nodes and also on top of that we benefit from the fact that you can just do it quickly and you don't have to wait to transact and send messages in between layers so how do users benefit from this so if I'm a user on scroll versus a user on an optimistic rollup what like will I

feel any difference will I will I see any benefit or these kind of like under the covers you know uh hidden benefits I think for now there's not going to be a lot of differences unless you try to exit to an L1 if you try to exit from an L2 to an L1 then you'll feel the difference because with a ZK you're going to have to wait for a maximum of all like 30 minutes whereas with an optimistic rollups roll up you'll have to wait for a week and but the thing is the more that the throughput the rollup can handle and the more we scale the more those benefits translate into something tangible for users so it might not be very noticeable now unless you

withdraw back to an L1 but it'll be noticeable when we are processing thousands of transactions per second and that finality time between the layer two to layer one uh well optimistic rollups when I transfer out of an optimistic rollup it doesn't take me seven days it takes the market makers seven days to really do that work for users but you're talking about users as like well the market makers are users too it'll take them seven days out of an optimistic rollup and only 30 minutes out of a ZK rollup like scroll the way that that translates into the end user is that well fees just are much cheaper yeah right and so I mean it's kind it's going to be the same speed out of an optimistic because you're not paying a market maker any kind of like you know tax to cross the bridge a much a much

lower tax like Market making is going to be much more competitive between a ZK rollup and the layer one versus an optimistic rollup that's my intuition is that right uh to some degree yes and but you're talking about specifically is value withdrawals so when you would were drawing tokens but also assume that like there's going to be a lot of cross chain messaging like let's say message from an L2 to an L1 app then you can't really go through a liquidity Bridge you are dependent on the bridge so for example an example that I always bring up the tally is potentially researching is doing the voting for a on an L2 and then just sending the result back as a message to an L1 saying oh yeah this was the vote

and this was the result that was accepted and here are the changes that you have to make to the contract or whatever so in an optimistic rollup you'll you're stuck you'll have to wait for a week whereas where the Z get roll up you just wait for whatever like 10 20 30 minutes and you're done I think the way that I would just Express this is that all rollups are asynchronous with each other by by default but some rollups can sink quicker to Global State than others uh and that is going to be because of that that that messaging bridge I want to ask about uh just main net launched uh and what's on the Chain like what's there to do uh is this kind of like a main net for developers and now developers need

to come in and you know build the build the attractions build the apps uh users can therefore also bridge on but is there anything for users to do in this present moment what is the next like rollout phase look like over the the coming days and weeks um so we've had our Genesis block a week ago and um we've kind of opened up the space for infrastructure projects to come on so the the the opening of the public Bridge UI means users can Bridge funds to scroll and developers can start deploying their dabs so um I'm not entirely sure what's been deployed so far it's only been a few hours but I've been told there's already a Sandy token um which I

promise is that why you came here Sandy to shill your Sandy [Laughter] the latest me that's not that's not why we're here that's not why we okay yeah I'm more setting things a foot okay what yeah so so the the the apps will be coming then over the weeks and months to come is is really what you think I expect a lot of apps will be um deploying relatively close to the main night launch and why should they come like what's a pitch for an app so let's say I've got a kind of a cool you know defi app on mayet it's working well you know gas fees are high I got a lot of different rollups I could uh deploy to why should I deploy on

scroll um I think some daps have a multi rup strategy and so for those types of daps the the main cell is for us is about removing friction for them and that's why we have this copy paste deploy campaign because it's so easy for them to self- deploy on scroll it's kind of like a why not it removes that why not scenario and then there's another um there's another pitch for um for applications that are that that that that only work on scroll so there's a number of ZK applications that are tool that are trying out really unique things that works uniquely with the scroll um ZK evm for various reasons and then there's another type of things that are just you

know because of the nature of scroll being a little bit cheaper and uh you know hopefully a lot cheaper very soon and um and also a lot faster um it opens up the design space for something that is a little bit further away from the core Financial applications and a little bit more in the arena of fun and maybe frivolous and maybe just kind of like hopefully useful type of stuff this is kind of like you know I think a a slightly old analogy that I I really like is that whenever the um internet or Broadband um increases through put by order magude it opens up a whole Arena and and you know with each order of magnitude of increase in internet speed

that's when Facebook happened and that's when Instagram happened and that's when Tik to happened and so on and so forth so we're at this moment where a new generation of applications are are are ready the infrastructure support there is ready but what's going to be um appearing is you know who knows and as to why they would build on scroll we're hoping the um we're hoping to build a environment that is helpful for developers where we're trying to be accessible and we're trying to build a vibe that is like cool and conducive to doing creative stuff um how we do that that's kind of up to to I'm kidding pressure be honest tole is a

taste maker so you know I'm the bus here I do enjoy the timing of all of these ZK EVMS coming online to be right before EIP 484 I know we got a number of months before that comes but not just one order of magnitude with the ZK element but a second order of magnitude with the 4844 element guys there's a few more questions that I want to get to uh of course just there's uh in the other rollup landscape there's the conversation of the the chain development kit I want to ask what scroll is strategy around here but also just future future road map what is next I mean we talked about all of the extra juice that's uh left to squeeze out of Innovations but I just want to talk about the the scroll m u the scroll road

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break I was scanning through um you friends over at layer 2 be and um look at all of these different layer twos uh first of all bullish like oh my God bullish uh now we have dozens of layer twos I I feel like soon we'll have hundreds of layer twos I think from a bank lless listeners perspective they might be asking the question okay like how do all of these things stitch together how do we prevent fragmentation of the ethereum ecosystem and ethereum liquidity how do we like abstract this uh for users right I mean does a user necessarily care what layer two they're on do they need to know the

difference between scroll and ZK sync and arbitrum and optimism all these things isn't this for like the crypto nerds so uh I wanted to ask this question of you now we have all of these layer twos how do we stitch them together is there is there a way to do that uh are the devs working on something here um so it's it's it's a bit of a two-face problem so there's a the uh so there's like a theoretical problem of how you actually handle communication and the second problem is how do you improve ux where an average user doesn't really know or care which L2 they're on and realistically at least from our opinion we're building for the developers and so for us as long as the

developers know where the deploying that's the main goal for us the users are free to think that they're using ethereum or scroll but but but but as long as the developers know uh that's our goal and so and so from the ux perspective you can always optimize things you can for example Define new address types that basically also Define which which which chain you're sending it to or aside from the address itself etc etc and on the technical side the short answer will be ZK a bit of a longer answer would be how do we do that with ZK so uh one there's a lot of pro efficiency improvements

that are expected to happen in the next year or two so I feel like within the next two years we won't be talking about proofs that are taking minutes to compute but more like proofs that are taking tens of seconds or even seconds to compute and now we're getting to almost real time composability where you can basically compose within a block and on top of that there are a few people that are building different tools using ZK that will allow you to compose directly without going going through an L1 so for example one of the ideas using storage proofs which means that you can use ZK to prove that a certain state has been stored in a certain way and directly bridge to another L2 without

waiting for the message to be passed through an L1 and so there there's a lot of stuff that is being researched on at the moment and is being in a development phase so I feel like for the next year or maybe two people are still going to struggle with like oh yeah do I have eth on this L2 oh how do I get eth in order to buy this toen or whatever but like it's not going to be a long-term problem it's not going to be a long-term problem that like that's what I wanted to hear so it's like is it is it um if if I'm on scroll how do I get my assets on some other like ZK layer 2 is there going to be a way to uh have that bridge be very kind of seamless uh or am I going to

have to like exit back to main net and then and then like go back to another layer two like and is it the same if scroll is uh connecting to another ZK evm versus like an optimistic roll up like how's this going to work I I I don't think I've like we we've got all of these different you know states of ethereum but we don't have like our interstate highway yet I feel like and so we've got still got a lot of fragmentation yeah there's still no standardization of how the bridges work etc I feel like it's going to happen at some po point the conversations are already start starting about standardizing certain things not bridges for now because I think it'll be quite difficult to standardize such a complex construction but more simple things so

for example uh there are a few L2 teams that are discussing the possib ility of introducing a new L2 specific transaction type that will allow us to basically easily deal with the fact that we both have to pay the user both has to pay for the L2 cost and the L1 cost which ethereum doesn't really care about so the current Solutions are very hacky but they're not very ux friendly and so I feel like those conversations are going to continue and at some point we're going to get to evm standardization Bridge standardization Etc and with ZK it's just a question of how fast you can compute the proof if you can compute the proof within seconds then even if you go through an L1 it

shouldn't take you that long to uh Bridge from one L L2 to another and on top of that you can you can think of things like storage proofs etc etc and there are still probably things that we haven't come up with that are going to come up in the next year or two that are going to be even better than what we think is a state-ofthe-art right now I think inside of the rollup industry in 2023 it's been really a story of chain development kits uh the op stack of course absolute gargantuan with the base uh base train and all the other op stack Forks that have happened uh but they're not alone of course the ZK stack from ZK sync orbit from orbits polygon supernets scroll what is this is is scroll

entering this Arena well I think we've just been so heads down building mainnet I think we need to take a minute to help the network stay stabilize and do a little bit more research about what developers and ecosystem projects actually want um I think there's no point in doing something unless there's real demand and um we're going to focus our efforts on doing research to validate some of the directions that we're going to go to after mayet okay so not not coming anytime soon potentially in the future just not your focus at the present moment um we're a completely open source project so if there's anyone that wants to do it you know we're completely we're happy to help um it shouldn't be a

big lift anyways um but you know in so far this demand for a more standardized products in terms of like a a stackx package um I don't think it's a very difficult thing to do from here sure sure sure well I know mainnet is a very big deal and I don't want to stress you guys out but what do you guys focus on now what's next uh what are the kind of the next steps for scroll what do you guys focus on in the weeks and the months what yeah you just said weeks and I'm thinking to myself we were just spending some time today talking about what scroll is gonna look like in five years you can answer either one yeah we we have quite a long road maps a lot of

it is still up in the air and a lot of it is still an open research problem that we're trying to solve but there are a few things that we're going to focus on one is optimization so there are still a lot of low hanging through fruits in terms of the implementation etc etc that we can optimize to squeeze out more performance to make the transaction cost less for users etc etc out of our implementation another big big Focus for us is security because as we all know most of the rollups I have to by law I'm required to say that fuel we version

one does not have a multisig but aside from that all the other rollups have a multisig and they're upgradable in why one way or another and can can I ask you about that too really quick this is something I think Bank list listeners will be familiar with on on layer to beat sort of the um the different stages of you know how kind of like decentralized uh they are and uh it looks like according to layer 2B um Scrolls in review right now um but like yeah so what is your plan to collect you know all of the stages all of the layer 2 beat Badges and be be kind of fully decentralized what what does that look like while we're here all pieces of the pie

from yeah right now I think arbitrum is maybe in the lead at least according to if you ignore dgate and um and fuel V1 arbitrum is basically in the lead okay yes so what's Scrolls plan for this so it's a multifaceted problem there are a few things that we need to work on so one we currently don't have forc transactions just because of the way the ZK circuit is implemented but we're working on it or and we're going to introduce them relatively soon that will allow us to have censorship resistance that is guaranteed by ethereum another thing that we're

working on is a multi-prover and we've been actively working on it for almost a year at this point which is also going to be introduced soon and that will allow us to basically not rely on the security of our current proof system so let's say if our current proof systems system fails for some reason there's still another proof system that ensures that somebody cannot steal money if that ever happens for some reason and then we're also working on decentralization there's some research going on about sequencers Improv there's also I published an article a few months ago about multi verifiers which is more about securing the

validating Bridges because one of the main concerns for us and I think for any rollup Builder is how to ensure that your smart contract doesn't have bugs and that's a really big problem we know how many defi apps have been hacked since 2020 and how many millions have been stolen and so what multi verifier allows us to do is to have two identical implementations of the bridge in two different languages let's say in solidity and Viper and then the transaction or the batch is only accepted if both of them agree that the entry to the storage is the same which means that even if one has a bug in it the other will catch it and prevented from allowing people to steal the money and then with combined that and the

multipro we're essentially we're limiting the attack surface to like a specification bug so let's say if we Define the protocol in a way that allows people to steal money but that can be also minimized via formal verification and that gets us to the point where we can essentially remove upgradeability and be fairly sure that there's not going to be any urgent bug that we need to fix without having delayed upgrade ability that will allow users to exit if let's say there's a malicious upgrade initiated by us or by the security Council or however we decide to for theg great ability to work this is a you know a side question

toorgle but uh you know I'm just curious like if we were to to zoom out here uh I know from what Sandy was saying earlier you kind of like took took the job a day later after your first conversation which means you were making a bet not only on on your career and kind of the steam but on the the technical direction of uh scroll and that was very much uh an ethereum aligned modular type of Direction and one thing I appreciate about UT tole on on Twitter is uh you know you're not AF afraid to push back on uh other people's uh you know thesis and opinions that sort of thing and I think right now crypto is trying to

figure out what the the next era really looks like and there's kind of a you know a question of does the monolithic Vision succeed something like salana they're pursuing a specific Direction I think they call it kind of integrated where we're not doing this Slayer two thing we're just put it all in on salana we've got Cosmos down here with this kind of like uh network of chains independent side chain city states as they call it and then we've got ethereum over here which is like this this modular vision of the world where we're sectioning out but we're like kind of settling back on ethereum what do you think uh those other two communities kind of get wrong what do you disagree with them on on uh the most and uh you know why why have

you decided to kind of invest your career and your time and your your mental space and everything in in this specific Direction uh I I actually don't think we disagree that much I actually I think Anatoli we had a debate like almost a year ago at this point and he mentioned that we agree on most of the things the only thing that we really disagree on are implementational details and so I I feel like we all all three communities agree that about the values of decentralization censorship resistance etc etc it's more about how you approach it and I feel like I'm very much aligned with like the original vision of

ethereum or of having this big chain that can facilitate millions of transactions that can be verified on a Raspberry Pi for example or your laptop that doesn't need quite high-end Hardware if not a server to be verified and run and with l2s that allows that basically translates into reality that allows us to translate into into reality because we Outsource the execution to l2s they do all the execution they publish the proofs on chain and we can still verify all of those l2s via this small machine like a Raspberry Pi or let's say your La old laptop at home or whatever and so from

that perspect perspective I'm very much I would say aligned with the vision with the original vision of ethereum but yeah but there are certain things that I obviously disagree with but then we all kind of have our personal opinions about certain implementational details here and there like what like what are the main implementation details that are different here uh I I I feel like one of the things that I I feel that a lot of people in the ethereum community kind of underestimate the importance of people talk a lot about it but there's not a lot of work being done estate growth and realistically that's the fundamental bottleneck of ethereum and

it's going to be a fundamental bottleneck for all the ZK rollups as well and rollups in general not just ZK rollups and so uh I feel like and myself included we can put more effort into researching it and actually finding a solution there there has been some research done but it's been sporadic and it hasn't been at the same level as let's say 4844 research on or a lot of other subjects has that have been quite uh quite deeply researched certainly a rabbit hole for a future Bank list podcast episode for sure uh State growth has been kind of this like looming gargantuan in the

background ever since I've always gotten into ethereum and uh never really actually SE seem to have gone head on so I I guess that's exactly what you were articulating togal but uh that's some like deep 120 IQ technical level stuff I kind of want to zoom back out and ask the stupid question um wi token we we just launched the main I was just talking this like a Silence of like who's gonna jum first on this one I was just talking to to like our devil team who travels through a lot of conferences and I was like finally no more when main net questions at oh no there's always a when here yeah yeah yeah then you have when token and yeah I

don't know I'll let Sandy answer as Lou guthman loves to say I can't answer for legal reasons quote Louie here as well let's just blame Lou for everything well congratulations guys main that is always a huge day just not just for scroll not just for what you guys are building for but for ethereum as well um when something that is is the evm gets uh extended B uh line item for line item bite code for bite code I don't even know if that's the right way to describe it but it makes sense to me uh into a layer two uh that makes me pretty pretty excited uh because this is about scaling trust right scaling cryptography uh and this is really why

we're all here uh and so this is a big day for all of us at ethereum I'd say yeah I would implore every all the bank list listeners to check out our mayet check out our developer docs and deploy something fun you know I think um my mom's going to deploy a contract that says if I every pound I lose she's going to give me a bit more pocket money wow thanks write a contract that the tux pay from to girl's check every month every time which which is gonna leave me with no money forever basically so for everyone to experiment and build lots of fun things well the the the mom driven smart contract Market is probably an untapped Niche for for

crypto so tell this one new Builders and newes okay so where do people go if they want to check scroll out where's the the place for them to go as we uh in this podcast their website so the place to go is our website scroll. that's s c o l l.o there we go into the frontier a new layer 2 this one a ZK evm that is equivalent to the evm on mayet it's a absolutely super aligned the most aligned ZK rollup that we've gotten for all the aligners out there yeah very very aligned that's been a theme this week for sure guys thank you so much for

for joining Bist and telling us all about it it's been absolutely fantastic thank you so much for having us bankless nation you guys have your to-dos go check out scroll uh you heard the website uh go explore the frontier as we are every single day of the week at bankless wristen disclaimers of course got to let you know crypto is risky you could lose what you put in that includes layer twos they're hidden WR there we are headed west this is the frontier it's not for everyone but we're glad you're with us on the banket journey thanks a lot