Scoopy Trooples: Alchemix – Financial Alchemy Through Self-Repaying Loans #392

Transcript

[Music] welcome to epicenter episode 392. today we have on with us scoopy trooples who is the co-founder of alcomix but before we talk to scoopy about alchemix we'd like to tell you a bit about our sponsors this week exodus exodus is a easy to use wallet which supports hundreds of assets and has native apps for all platforms including ios and android and as a fully non-custodial wallet there are firm believers in the not your keys not your coins mantra go to exodus.com to give it a try next up we have paraswap paraswap just

came out with a huge upgrade that's even faster and more liquid it's cheaper than unisop and comes with a new gas token that can cut your gas fees by up to 50 percent go to paraswap dot io epicenter and finally we have solana solana is a next generation blockchain with lightning fast blocks and fees less than a cent per transaction scalability is perhaps single biggest challenge preventing crypto from becoming the backbone to the world's financial system and today solana may well be the best solution we have go to solano.com epicenter to learn more all right so scoopy it's super awesome to have you on you and i have like you know i feel like we've like chatted on like twitter threads and stuff for

a long time i think i i do this like thing where annually i i figure out i run a script at the end of the year to see whose twitter accounts i've liked the most like whose tweets i've liked the most and i think in 2020 you were like number like seven or eight on my list and which is really cool because like this is the first time we're ever talking in person um i think like probably everyone else on the list it's like people are actually new in person or something but it's like you're so this is really cool to finally get a chance to talk to you so yeah can you tell us just a little bit about yourself and like you know i mean okay what one thing that people can probably obviously tell us scooby troopals is probably not your real name

so uh tell us a little bit about how you got into crypto and why you use the name scoopy trooples yeah i mean i mean it's fun that we we interact on twitter um you know i always love that you have like these random geography fact threads that uh this continual thread um it's always a highlight of my day to find to learn something new from you um but how did i get into crypto yeah um so it was i mean my journey like all the way started back and i think it was in 2011 and when i heard about the the silk road for the first time there was like a giant expose um it was like on gawker and all sorts of internet websites

and you know i got interested in it and i um downloaded tor browser and i went to the pirate bay and i found a website where i could buy bitcoin and i was like right about to hit that buy button and then i was just like nah i don't think i'm gonna do this this is weird this this internet money stuff you know it sounds dumb and then i backed out and then so i sort of knew about bitcoin this entire time um didn't pay a ton of attention to it and then like in 2013 like a family member was like yo you got to get this bitcoin thing it just went up to like a thousand dollars and i'm like wait what last time i checked it was like a dollar and so i thought you know i just missed

it i thought it was a bubble and then i felt really vindicated when it crashed you know it was in its bear market in like you know 2015 in 2016 and um my wife was like hey scooby we need to do some investing and you know start looking into that stuff and at this time i was like i don't know about this bitcoin stuff i know i was like following that a while ago how's that doing and i you know i went down the rabbit hole and i learned more about it you know on the deeper level um and i was like you know what let's do this like you know screw stocks let's let's go into bitcoin and so late 2016 i got into bitcoin and 2017 i did what everyone else did and they you know spend a lot of money on

icos and coins that have fancy infographics that make it look like they have an ecosystem but they really don't have an ecosystem at all and then eventually i just kind of gravitated more and more towards uh ethereum especially towards the end of 2017 and early 2018 when uh the apps started becoming more and more popular on ethereum um i think cryptokitties was my first d app and then i played around with stupid ponzi uh money games because that was the only thing out there in 2018 there was no uh like d5 but at that time like you know even though these were like kind of stupid money games it kind of got my you know my brain going like whoa

you can do a lot of stuff with programmable money and at that time i wasn't a developer but i was like you know what let's go in let's do this and so i started learning how to code i became a web developer at that time i started getting some get jobs for you know web 2.0 stuff using react and then it was a summer of 2020. um one of my friends that i met in crypto discords he's like hey i need a front end developer for this app i'm making um and at the time it was called cheese phi this was uh back in june before sushi before yam before any of the food token craze hit we had cheese phi

and um it was actually very similar to uh what ended up becoming alchemics it had some some pretty key differences um that we decided uh that we realized that would make it like non-viable as a platform essentially what we would do for cheese phy would you be you would uh like lock up the dye for between 10 and 100 days and then you get this cheese token in exchange for for doing that and then the yield from your die would then go to buying off the cheese token from the market from uniswap and then we were like you know we thought it was a really cool model but then we learned more about like mev minor extractable value and

sandwich attacks and we realized that a lot of value could be extracted from that system so we had to go back to the drawing board and create something different um and then through that process we we came across you know what is now alchemics how did you kind of decide to go with the name like scoopy troubles i think we actually were discussing this uh right before the show uh i think it would be really interesting to discuss with with viewers like what what got you excited about that name um specifically all right so um in in rick and morty there's an episode where they go to pluto and because like uh jerry's adamant that it's a planet

even though everyone says it's not planet and like the ruler of that of pluto's name was uh scrupi nuples and then later on i like that name so much i i i was playing dungeons and dragons and i made this like silly character based off of scrooby newple's and that character's name was called scoopy trooples and then when it came time to make my twitter account my normal handle that i use other places was gone and i was like huh what can i use and i was like oh scooby troops that's that's a fun name let's go with that one that can be my new handle and thus scooby triples was born and only blew up on twitter recently really like in defy summer i was like some nobody with like 100 followers for like the longest time

so what made you decide to uh go like build this whole project anonymously like you know for like five years of epicenter surprisingly we didn't have like any anon people then i think suddenly in the last like six months we just had this like you know maybe i think we might be like our third or non guest at this point and it's like and obviously so there's this like larger trend in like you know a non uh like building anonymously i mean i guess arguably it's not a new trend arguably was the first trend in crypto as well from satoshi but why did you decide to do that and what's been your like experience doing that i definitely think like the ethos of crypto should be an honor pseudo anonymous i mean if you go back to the founder of it all yeah satoshi nakamoto was

but i mean the reason for that is that you know when you are holding crypto assets you know you're holding them like in your house you know you got your seed phrase maybe you know backed up on a piece of paper or you know maybe a metal card if you're really precautious and you know somebody could you know easily just like break into your house and then rip off all of your you know all of your money all your assets you know just by stealing some words on a piece of paper from you and with that in mind like i i i'm anonymous for my own safety like i i don't want uh to expose me or my family or anybody you know who's close to me uh you know to my dealings in crypto you

know if word got out that you know my who who i am in real life is scoopy triples then you know it might make people that i love and i care about targets also including myself and there's also the thing that like i haven't told like anybody in my really like close family and friends about scooby shripples or alchemics because i like to kind of separate that life from you know or that that from you know my normal life because i don't want people to treat me any different than they have treated me in my entire life just because they think i have money and so you know for safety and my own personal reasons i choose to be anonymous i mean i'm surprised that there's not more anonymous founders out there because i think like you know putting

your name out there and your face out there is kind of dangerous one thing i wanted to kind of dive into was uh the mechanism design itself of alchemix how would you describe to someone hearing for the first time what alchemix is at at a high level and what the main kind of use case it provides for defy is okay so at a basic level the way alchemics works is that you deposit dye into the system um and then you can use that dye as collateral to mint our own synthetic stable coin al usd and you can

borrow up to 50 percent of the amount of collateral that you have so if you put in 100 you can borrow 50. and then what happens is that the die that you deposit gets deposited into urine.finance into their diet vault and that earns around around 15 interest a year and what happens is that the principal from your deposit is earning yield and that gradually pays off your all usd debt over time and then that harvested yield also goes to a module that we call the the transmitter which acts as a backstop to the peg so if for some reason al usd is trading at under the peg

on our curve market then you could go to the transmitter module and guarantee a one-to-one conversion for from aliusd to die other things for the transmitter that fill it up or when people repay their loans in die so a lot of people have been without chemics you're not locked in at any time for any amount of time so you can always repay your debt and then exit your collateral from the system so whenever anybody pays and die whether that's through direct wallet payments or if they liquidate their diet collateral to pay their debt that die gets sent to the transmuter and the cool thing about the transmitter is that it takes all of its dye and puts it into urine and then that

yield from the transmitter is then passed along to the depositors in our vault so it boosts their apy because we have an effectively higher principle than uh than just the deposits themselves because of the transmitter so that's how we can get like 25 percent interest whereas urine is getting like 15 let's get to our sponsor exodus exodus is a fantastic cryptocurrency wallet that strikes the right balance between ease of use security and great features you can get exodus on the iphone desktop app web app android whatever platform you use it's a non-custodial wallet and that is so critical

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so the dye that gets uh earned from urine you know so does a portion of it go to start paying off debt and a portion goes to the transmuter or is it somehow like what percent is going where this is a little bit tricky since we have our own synthetic uh stable coin al usd when we harvest the yield from urine we reduce amount of everyone's debt like globally in the system when that happens but we don't actually have to pay the die to like the the users at this point the die that die just ends up going straight to the transmitter so all of it goes to transmitter and it it decrements everyone's debt at the same time there is a 10 fee that alchemics charges on

yield harvests um and that's kind of our rate that's our take that's our project fees that we take um and we have to do that um at the bare minimum we'd have to do that just to pay for the fees for harvesting because uh it's not cheap to run an app on ethereum gas is very expensive and some of the processes that we do is uh we don't have users call these functions instead we kind of batch it all together and uh the people running the protocol you know the dev team we we you know pay that cost for our users how do people uh earn from the transmuter is everyone who's has al usd like earning from it or do people have to actually

deposit into the transmitter so the transmitter is not really a vehicle for for yield or earnings it's just a like a guarantee that you can redeem your alley usd for die and we only really see usage of that when um the curve pool uh that we have gets a little bit imbalanced and there's uh more alcx token or aliosd tokens than the uh the the curve tokens are the uh kind of curved meta pull tokens the three pool so whenever there's like an imbalance there we might see people use the transmuter which kind of acts as like the backstop of the peg um but that that's like in the event that like

aliosd falls off the peg like really badly then people could like buy iosd off the market then put it in the transmuter and that could be like a source of yield if you treat alusd as a bond but other than that no it's just a redemption model uh you know method of way to backstop the peg so it's not really meant for yield um but the transmitter itself does deposit its over 200 million die into urine and then you know passes on that yield to our users would you say it's safe to characterize the main use case people are using alchemics for is getting extra yield you mentioned 25 relative to 15 or have there been like other really interesting

use cases that have surprised you that came off the protocol yeah so i mean a lot of people what they're you know they're just depositing in there and just earning yield on it but for for the most part people are taking on al usd loans and some people are using it for personal finance where they're they're selling the iosd for like usdc then and then exiting it off of coinbase i know i've confirmed that we've had some people do this somebody bought a boat for their dad using an alchemics loan i know a guy bought a porsche i know somebody who's paid for their grad school tuition using an alchemics loan um also somebody paid their their hospital bill

for their newborn son uh by financing it through an alchemics loan um and other than personal finance a lot of people what they're doing is they're either selling the isd and investing in you know speculating in the market or they're taking their isd and then supplying like liquidity on curve and then earning alcx that way so some people are you know using it for finance other people are speculating and other people are just trying to maximize their yield farming even more so on that personal finance use case one thing i'm a little bit confused about is what's the use case of borrowing a stable coin against over collateralized stable coin

so like you know people often will use like maker compound because to borrow usd but they put down collateral in you know eat or btc or something because they're trying to maintain you know exposure to the uh collateral asset and also that you know there's often like tax benefits as well uh to doing this but why would i put down dollars of a stable coin just to borrow a hundred dollars of a stable coin instead of just selling or spending my original stable coin so a lot of times like when you have your own savings and stuff like that and then like an expense in life comes up you have to make a choice between consumption

and and saving um whereas with alchemics you can do both you can both save and spend save and consume so let's say you have a thousand dollars saved up um that's your rainy day fund and then you get into a car accident and it turns out the bill for this car accident is going to be 500 to fix it if you were to pay that out of pocket you'd be left with 500 of savings and let's say you go ahead and you put that 500 in d5 and you're making you know 15 20 a year on that that's great right but with alchemics what you could do is you could put your thousand dollars in it take out that 500 loan and then you could be earning interest on the thousand dollars that

you put in so you'd have a larger principal that's earning yield paying off your loan so by the time that the loan is paid off you will have a thousand dollars where if you paid out of pocket for that car accident and then you invested that that 500 in d5 and then it you know compounded over two years you'd be looking at maybe like 700 750 but without chemic you'd be ending up with a thousand dollars the example i said was like you know sometimes you want to maintain expose the reason you'd borrow against your eat is you want to maintain exposure to eat and you think eath is going to go up here it kind of it actually is somewhat similar but you're basically saying hey i want to maintain exposure to it's

not really a stable coin it's a yield earning stablecoin because in defy at this moment even stable coins can like give you quite a high return alcomix helps you maintain exposure to this like high yield earnings stable coin and you're borrowing this low yield earning earnings stablecoin which is the uh al usd is that is that essentially what's happening here yeah i'd like to think of alchemics as like a savings technology in a lot of ways where you're encouraged to both save and spend you're by saving it's giving you uh access to you know your you know a

greater and greater line of credit so it's encouraging you to save and it's also kind of putting a limit because you can if there's like a 200 collateralization ratio let's say you save up a million bucks and then you go into alchemics you can take out 500 000 so it's not like you're going to be able to spend all of your your money um this is important because let's say uh you know the yields on upcomings dry up or you need your collateral back for something in real life and you want to get out you can pay off your loan let's let's say like if you you still have your alios date alisd or you converted it to die you can pay off your loan from your wallet or you can liquidate your collateral so you can get out it gives you a little bit more

optionality in your spending so if you wanted to you could just have that debt repay itself or you could repay it yourself manually and if you repaint yourself manually yeah you get a little extra gains from you know the extra principle but it'd be pretty similar to paying out of pocket but the whole idea is it gives you that optionality you can essentially get a line of credit that pays itself off and that that lets you just like kind of take risks and do things and spend money like kind of in a guilt-free way because i know like i'm a saver naturally and i always like hate to take money out of my savings or out of my investments to you know to buy something or to fund my real life um and without chemical i i feel like

i'm not forced to make that decision anymore i can just be like hey i'm just going to take out a loan that's going to pay itself off in fact what i do for my own personal finances i have a decent amount of diet and alchemists and i just draw some monthly and then that pays like all my house and family bills and at the end of the month i have almost no debt and then i just take another loan out and then just repeat the process so when you're looking for a flight you go to a flight aggregator to see all the different places where you can buy the flight to get all the options and make sure you get the best price for your travel plans and when you're making a d5 swap just do the same

and use paraswap it beats the market prices across all the major dexes because it aggregates them and thanks to their network of professional market makers you get zero slippage on your trades so they just pushed a huge update that's even faster more liquid thanks to a brand new algorithm pair swap is now multi-chain and has expanded polygon and binance marching so go and check it out give paraswap a try at paraswap.io epicenter where do you see al usd within d5 it seems like you see it as a tool for borrowing in a guilt-free way in the kind of way that you mentioned but do you see it like as

a major stable coin for defy like how do you see it being composed upon uh and what do you see its role in the like whole stable coin ecosystem that already exists in d5 yeah yeah we're working actively on trying to get more integrations for all usd um first step from that one is getting uh reliable uh uh price feeds for iosd right now we're only on the curve and factory pools and they don't have like any sophisticated uh swaps or oracles associated with that so we're trying to work with chain link to get a price feed for our ecosystem tokens and once that happens we're going to be able to get alusd on places like um like ave like rari's fuse

and other lending markets like cream as well but i think more interestingly than just having it being like a a collateral or capital asset is that you could um we could work with like margin protocols or options protocols and then you could use al usd to fund those positions and then if you if you're borrowing that and a loan that repays itself then you you can go short you can go long and be as degen as you want to and know that you know even if you lose even if you get wiped out you know you still have your collateral um that you use to get your ios d loan and that debt will vanish over time so i think that's kind of cool it's like a an idea of safe aping

could you clarify that again so so uh you think people can put down dye and then borrow alchemics sell that alchemics in exchange for al usd alcomix is the or sorry yeah lusd so so people can put down dye into alchemics borrow al usd against it and they can sell that al usd and buy with it options or some other kind of derivative instrument and that's as you said like kind of a guilt-free experience is that kind of what you're you're envisioning well what we're trying to work for is

getting um al usd so integrated into d5 that you wouldn't have to sell it for another stable coin is that you could go straight into that options contract or into that margin position using al usd that's that's the goal right there is to get to that point where it can start to be used across d5 and different use cases and stuff because right now i can go to like margin swap and go to dydx i can go to you know various platforms and and lever you know my my my stable coins so i can do other things in d5 with them right and al usd does not have that just yet you know because it's still early in the days for it uh but once we get those integrations and it'll you know start to drive more of the demand side for

uh the currency itself because it'll have a lot more uses instead of just flipping for die or usdc or tether and some other stablecoin and i think that's an important part of having long-term peg stability is to uh you know take care of that demand side essentially if that happens all usd is going to be competing then with things like die and usdc and stuff for like usage within d5 and isn't it actually going to drive down the the yields you can earn on like die because like you know right now let's say you know right now let's say on uh with with on urine let's say put depositing in curve is one of the

highest uh sources of yield right and that feels like you know one of the most incentivized pools on curve is that like three pool uh with die usdt and usdc but now let's let's imagine a world where al usd becomes like you know the fourth big stable coin in d5 right wouldn't that actually then drive down yields on die now because it's only getting a quarter of the curve rewards rather than a third of them and essentially the question is as al usd becomes more popular does not drive down the yields from other stable coins i think this is a really tough one to predict because like kind of what determines the the yield of a

stable coin there's there's a ton of factors involved um you know a lot of that yeah because yearn uses um seven different strategies in their dive vault for uh you know for for version two um of their vaults and and one of the strategies is to lp into to that curve poll that you just mentioned um but they also have a number of other strategies so i i'm not really sure that we would you know if lusd became you know a huge market you know cap that we would dilute that i mean that's sort of saying like you know there's a stable coin out there usdn

and that has like an insane amount of curve gauge weight is is usdn taking yield away from die you know like i feel like the answer is yes and no because they might be taking some of the curve rewards away from that that that three pull curve and dilute and lowering the yields for die but the same time then people also balance their positions based on the yield so the market reacts to that so the appropriate amount of capital will be allocated to places to get that yield so if the desired yield is ten percent and then you see it's five percent somewhere you're not going to put your your your stable coins in there you're going to try to find somewhere else so i think

it'll balance itself out and i don't think al usd would have a major impact on die yields i haven't given this a ton of thought to be honest i mean i might want to come back and issue like a you know a deeper thought on this on twitter for you sometime soon sonny but my gut feeling is i don't think we would have any significant impact on dyes yields that said though on version 2 of alchemics which is slated to come out in two to three months we will be adding multiple collateral types so you'll be able to put in dye usdc ost susd you name it any viable stable coin that has some good on-chain yield um they'll all be collateral um assets for uh al usd

so we'll be we'll be siphoning yield from all of the stable coins in the future someday [Music] let's get to our sponsor solana now this is a special ad for me to read because i've been a deep supporter of this project since meeting the solana team back in 2018 i invest personally in the project and my company cross one is super deeply involved in the solana ecosystem including running the biggest validator so what's so cool about solana well we all know that scalability is the single most important issue facing the blockchain industry today and the solana blockchain is an amazing solution for it the network supports thousands of transactions per second with 400 millisecond block times and

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about two years for you know if let's say you bought you put down a hundred dollars of die you borrow 50 of all usd it'll take about approximately two years to pay off that entire loan but now let's say they suddenly you know all uh urine like you know the yields drop to from 25 to 5 and now this loan suddenly takes 10 years to pay off how does that change where does that affect like you know get reflected in the alchemic system like i imagine that has to propagate somewhere in the alchemic system is does it affect the al usd price does it affect yeah where does that effect get seen

does it change the collateralization ratio needed at the most basic level um it'll mean that your debt repayment times will take longer you know the system should still work uh fine but because the debt repayments are taking longer the amount of yield flowing into the transmitter would be lower so in the event that we do destabilize you know and we we break our peg and stuff like that and then let's say people use the transmitter and they use everything that's in the transmitter and it goes down to zero um at that point then you know al usd then would become like a bond of sorts and it would still have value and it still trade at the market

in the market but you might take a discount when you sell it or you could then purchase it from the market and then you know put in the transmitter and it would gradually turn into to die over time so that that's what we you know worst case scenario we see happening in the event that yields collapse but if yields collapse for urine they're probably going to collapse everywhere because they are incredibly flexible and they have a you know very competent team of top-notch developers and strategists who are heavily incentivized to find the best yields because they earn profit off of them i'm still confident that urine will have very competitive you know yields in relation to other projects in d5 but that said yeah definitely lower

yields would or could negatively impact the peg um we're not sure exactly how much would happen to there it depends it really depends on if the peg itself breaks if it doesn't and our liquidity incentives and the demand to supply you know liquidity to our curve pools and other markets that we'll have in the future if that's good enough and the pay can hold then it'll just mean that debt repayment times will take longer but um you know if the peg does break then we would be in a little bit of a precarious situation um so that is a risk uh just being straight up with you guys why is the peg holding today like why from my understanding it feels to me that it should be al usd

should actually probably be treated as a bond even right now so what and so should probably be trading at a slight discount like there's a time value to the money right and so like yes you can convert it at one to one on the transmuter but you know at some future time and why is that not reflected in the price of al usd today so right now all usd there's a supply of around 330 340 million iusd out there and currently there's around 220 million die in the transmuter so roughly two-thirds of the alliusd out there is backed completely one-to-one that you can redeem it but the other

part is is that these are over collateralized loans too like at the end of the day so just like makerdale has over collateralized loans just like liquidy has over collateralized loans you know we we kind of have the same thing so it's not only like you know the the die in the transmute that's backing it but it's also the the die that's collateral that's backing it as well and the fact that people can you know repay their debt at any time so like if you borrowed lsd and then you're you know you're trying to earn on it and then you see that you know it's price goes down you would just feel like all right i'm going to take my ios down pay down my loan because these these tokens aren't is worth this much and that right there itself is is a pegging mechanism because when you pay off

without usd it destroys it um you know and then that takes it off the market and you know will help it bring it back towards more towards equilibrium so i hope that answers your question the other part of why it's holding the the dollar uh peg so strong is yeah we are uh incentivizing liquidity on curve we uh if you stake the the the alloy usd3 curve lp tokens on our website you can earn close to 40 percent uh apy on in the form of alcx tokens our audit from certic just came back and that's going to allow us to get on curve dot phi and we'll be able to have access to the curve gauges as well

so that will add another source of yield for our stakers um and depositors i think it's it's like the magic of the transmuter coupled with the fact that you know we have these liquid markets that are incentivized that is keeping this peg up so that makes sense that you can earn alchemics tokens by like depositing into the curve pool but and the curve heavily incentivizes things to be priced one-to-one uh but at the end of the day even on curve things can still be you know the price of uh al usd could still be less than one dollar relative to the other tokens in

the pool uh and as long as all you're checking is that hey is there liquidity in the pool so why is no one arbitraging and like kind of even moving the curve pool to be at whatever like a properly priced bond should be um i don't think there's really any incentive to to do that there is no arm there you know for right now and if you tried to manipulate it in in bring the price of value usd down that would just completely get armed away because people would say hey you know i can you know buy you know al usd for 98 cents and then transmute it you know and get you know a dollar for it you know for 98 cents and they can get some instant

yield that way and we've actually seen that this week um with the east crashing in price since uh alcx is tied to ethan our sushi swap market we've also gone down with eath as well and because of that our yields have gone down so we've seen people exit the the liquidity pools uh we've seen maybe like i think we had like 600 million liquidity there last week and now we have around 550 million um and at the same token um since a lot of people were pulling out their die or their three pull curve tokens from that pool there was a bit of an imbalance in um how usd went down to like 99.5 cents whereas before it was uh

roughly like you know i think it was trading at a slight premium to die at the time before that and then because there was that little r uh people were then starting to use the transmuter and we lost you know transmuter had some funds uh uh taken from it uh during this uh this period as well um so but the peg held it's still very strong and things seem to be uh in an equilibrium right now and we're not seeing those outflows anymore so i think that's just the system working as intended how long does it take for transmutation at least like in that case that you talked about uh with die peg breaking to like you know 95 cents

um or sorry the al usd peg breaking to 95 cents relative to die how long does it take to transmute like al usd into die um at minimum it's going to take 50 blocks because we we put the distribution of the uh the dye uh for all usd uh depositors in the transmitter to take a little bit longer so that way people wouldn't be able to like grief it if they like called harvest and then they could you know uh then immediately get that dye and you know so in order to stop that yeah we have that split spread over 50 blocks but usually that happens whenever somebody those that will start flowing to your account when

we either harvest yield or somebody repays their debt and die now there is another function that you can use to transmit faster it's called force transmute it's kind of a bit of an advanced function and it's really only for ether scan pro users basically you'd have to query an ethereum address that's staked into the transmitter it's possible that you can have too much dye allocated to a position let's say i put in 100 l usd there's a little uh box in there that says uh the amount of transmutable uh dye i have um if i have put in 100 usd then i have 100 transmutable die it'll just uh you know burn the 100 l usd and give me 100 die when i hit the

transmute button but it's possible with our current design for the transmitter for you to have 100 l usd deposited and then have more than 100 i'll usd that 100 more than 100 transmutable die i could have a million transmutable die in fact like on 100 uh position and what you can do is you can force transmute somebody who's over allocated and when that happens all of their excess allocated dye goes straight to your allocated die so it's sort of like an incentivized crown job there's a handful of people we know in the ecosystem that kind of uh take care of this and they've been you know we don't know who they are

but they figured out this uh this forced transmute system and uh they have been arbiting the peg uh here and there which is actually kind of a service for everybody in the ecosystem because you know they're helping uh you know bring stability to the price of value sd we did try to implement that into the um the ui uh but we were having some issues with our graph and it wasn't reliable so we just like cut it from the ui but um occasionally what we'll do if we notice like you know people like my dies and transmitting we'll we'll force transmute a couple positions and then transmute ourselves and then that will disperse the the yield evenly to everyone else in the system kind of immediately at that time uh sorry one question i didn't fully

understand what is the situat how do you get yourself into a situation where the your dialogue is greater than your uh al usd how do you get into a situation where you can be force uh transmuted um so this was like a kind of like a computer science problem is that imagine like um you know the dye that's flowing into the transmuter is like rain falling from the sky and your staking position uh your deposit for alusd is like a bucket and of course when the bucket's full you would expect it to you know not overflow or anything like that it would just be full right but because ethereum is the way that it is and you can't like have like you know

kind of code like self-execute you always have to like you know pay the gas and push that button to do it we we we couldn't find a problem or a solution at the time for uh that terminal uh terminality uh for ending the the you know the distribution for people who are like uh overfilled and so we were kind of scratching our heads we were playing around with an epoch model and other things like that and then um one of our devs had made like a an app from like back in 2018 and it's like hey what if we repurposed this code for the transmitter it's like if we do that then it's going to overfill and it's like what if we turn you know an overfill position let somebody else be able to

transmute that then we could just send the divs over or the allocation over to them and that would be like an incentivized crown job and so we're trying to use crypto token or economics to solve a computer science problem essentially the good news is that in our version two we have figured out this problem and we're not going to have to do this uh this awkward force transmutes uh kind of like you know workaround to get the system working and it'll just it'll just work and it'll be simple and it'll be nice i mean that's a pretty clever solution i like that i i i okay now i understand with the whole that's that's pretty cool i mean before the system we had it was it was untenable where you'd have to stake your all usd weekly

and then claim whatever got transmuted weekly and then restake it and you know when we were kind of testing that um before we launched like i i just hated it i'm like no nobody's gonna do this nobody's gonna spend you know you know 500 in gas for you know an undetermined payout every week that's why we we switched it it's not perfect but it works at the time and we have a much better solution going forward so i don't know this is you might not this might not be what you want to hear about what this somewhat almost reminded me of was so i'm very familiar with faye and this like slightly reminded me of fey

in some ways where especially in the case where fey is over collateralized where you know which it is currently right like currently in fay the price that the cl eath collateral that it has is much higher than the uh outstanding like stable coin liabilities it has and their premise is that you know we can keep this peg going as long as possible because anyone who wants out can get out at any time and we're able to do this and we can keep this going for as long as possible because the east price is gonna as long as the eath price is gonna keep going up we're gonna continuously keep having a way for the people

who want out to get out when they want to get out it seems that this is actually very similar in a lot of ways but instead of depending on the eath price going up here it's depending on the uh yearn yields right as long as the urine yields are like earning money will have enough money the protocol will have enough reserves to let the people who want to go out be able to go out uh and what's nice as opposed to infey it's like this collateral is lower bounded at the the hopefully that the interest rates on the on on urine don't go negative right like i mean you know in traditional tradify we do actually have negative interest rates but you know at least on hopefully on urine the prices it should never go negative and certainly at least it's lower

bounded at zero while in the fae case you know the price there's a situation where the protocol can become under collateralized as well i i didn't really think about that comparison but yeah yeah i guess um where they're backed by eth uh you know collateral buying power to buy back everything were powered by you know die yield being able to buy back everything um the the cool thing about alchemics is that like you know you know you you could use it by yourself you could be the only participant in it it wouldn't make much sense if that were the case but you could because you know your your die collateral is locked until either you repay your debt or the um or uh you know the yield is uh is paid off itself

or you know the yield pays off the debt itself so like you know even if like you know it takes 10 years for you know your loan to mature and nobody's using the system and you're just holding this al usd out there and you don't know what to do with it eventually you will be able to redeem that for die so there is always that guarantee that we're going to be able to make you whole um in alchemics it just might take a long time in the worst case scenario and that's actually something we really really care about um you know a lot of us came from like dj money games um and we didn't like the fact that so many people were getting wrecked or the fact that if somebody had to if somebody won that meant somebody else had to lose um in those games and so without

gimmicks we thought how can we make it so that we can make everybody whole again no matter what no matter what happens and other than a urine hack you know of the the vault that we're using i i don't see a scenario where anybody can actually lose money using our system what's the long-term vision that you have for alchemics where do you see yourself in five years ten years as part of this like defy story are there like new products in that i can imagine like ethan's collateral yeah what what's the the long-term vision for you we're we're targeting this month we might it might slip into next month uh we're we're going to be launching um al eth it'll work very similar to l usd

um where you deposit eth and you can take out an al eth loan it might have some different parameters like it might have a different collateralization ratio because ethiopia is lower than die yield so we don't want you know somebody to be in there and then have a loan you know be 15 years to take off pay off so we might increase the collateralization ratio for that one and we're playing around with some other parameters as well but that should be out um relatively soonish and the ali is i think is a really cool one uh because you can you know lever up on your eat or you can even you know use it as a cashing out method or a way to short eath or to hedge it so i think it's going to open up a lot of really interesting use cases then after uh we get alieth out we're

heads down focused on getting our version two out which will open up a multi-collateral um alchemics essentially so they'll be you know for al usd multiple stable coins that can be used as the collateral and the cool thing is like you can like make a composite position of a lot of different stable coins in alchemics uh imagine each stable coin as an ingredient and you can customize or you can make your own recipe uh using the different ingredients and different balances that you want to so if you want like a position that's 30 die 50 usdc 20 tether you could do that if you want to um and then as you do that you can see like which stable coins are offering the best yields and stuff like

that and you can construct your uh your position that way so that that's one cool thing about uh version two and the the same property will also be there for um al eth and we're also going to be launching our bitcoin as well and that'll take like various uh flavors of bitcoin on ethereum and then from there is uh right now in alchemix v1 we launched um on audited and we were unsure of uh any security issues with economic exploits so we locked down smart contracts from interacting with alchemics so we would prevent like flash loans and things like that some unknown stuff good news is that we got our audit back and everything came uh back really good

no critical issues were found so uh you know funds are safe though [Laughter] but going forward in alchemix v2 is we're going to remove that restriction and it's going to be a lot more composable and then we're going to be building modules on top of it i can't get into detail about too much about those i did say that i did leak on the bankless podcast earlier that one of the modules is going to be for delegated credit so like when you deposit die then you have like a credit of value sd that you can take out um you know this new module that we're going to be working on is going to allow you to then let somebody else borrow that all usd from you i don't want to go into too many details

about the system but i think that's going to be something that's really powerful we're also working on a handful of a few other modules and the one that i am leading and designing is uh alchemics dao um and that's going to bring a cash flow model to the alcx tokens uh and for participants in the dow it's we're going to be experimenting with conviction voting borrowing some of the security module from ave so like if something happens to the protocol and we suffer a loss alcx takers in the dow could get slashed in their token sold at auction to make the protocol whole again so they'll

be you know security and insurance model uh baked into the dao and uh it's going to be um executing code you know so the dow itself right now we have a multi-sig community and developer multisig with the time lock and governance via snapshot but the the dow itself will you know execute the code unlike the uh the semi trusted setup we have right now um and so we're going to be uh borrowing heavily from the governor alpha contract from compound so we're going to be mixing all those things together to make something new and also the goal is to to gamify it and turn it into something kind of cool and unique

that hasn't been done before so please look forward to that when it comes out after v2 later this year into 2022 we're going to be expanding the use cases of alchemics by adding more modules trying to secure more integrations and defy the holy grail is to get an alchemics credit card where you could you know it'll take your stable coin deposits and then you'll just have access to this uh you know line of credit that you can use for spending um that actually might be in the cards i don't want to say too much now but yeah we we know some people that might be able to get this to get get it going and a lot of the members of the team are also really into um

nfps and gaming and stuff like that and that's something that i think our team as the alchemics you know platform matures is an area that we might start branching off into one area that we're really excited about is flipping the model of paying for games on its head a little bit and doing a form of stake to pay to play where you can leverage the actual alchemic system to finance paying for games without actually having to you know purchase a game or you know having to only pay for all these like you know micro transactions and stuff like that instead you would just say hey i deposit a couple hundred die and then i get to play this game as long as i have my deposit in there instead so that's uh something that

we're pretty excited about um but that's down the line um as far as stuff like that goes and then you know long long term goals is you know for alisd we we hope that we can become one of if not the top uh decentralized stable coin out there um it's sort of like a meta-stable coin too in the future it will be when we have multi-collateral l usd so it'll be like a composite of all the the stable coins right now we have around 300 and 330 million alusd out there i think it would be really cool if we can get over a billion um so that's uh you know one of our goals is to get over a billion dollars of usd out there uh if not more

that could be cool if we could take uh maker dow as the top decentralized stable coin that would be really cool i don't know if we can get that far but you know that would be cool and what do you see as some of the biggest risks facing you guys especially from uh you know what can competition do as well like what happens if maker says hey we're gonna start taking y assets so like you know like a derivative of what of a urine deposit and like accept that as collateral how does that change the dynamics of the alchemic system yeah we're already starting to see that a little bit i know cream was playing around with the idea of allowing y assets as collateral i think

unit protocol is also playing around with that as well um but they still would be different from alchemics because when you borrow their their stable coins you're still getting charged interest like if i borrow usdp i'm going to be getting charged twelve percent if i borrow die i think it's something like five or six percent right now i'm not entirely sure whereas with us you you're not gonna have to pay interest on the l usd um instead your collateral is going to be paying off that that debt over time so i think that's something unique uh for alchemics in the way that we constructed our system uh that other people uh you know they would either have to clone us to replicate it for for the their own apps but isn't this interest important in

these systems because it's what helps bring the price back to a peg and it's like or b because if people like you know you you want to like kind of incentivize people to pay off their debt and like having this interest is kind of what does that without requiring people to pay off their debt and like have an interest how do you kind of get people to want to pay off their debt yeah so if al usd is off the peg and it's uh cheaper you you know and let's say like you borrowed it at one point and you sold it for a dollar and then later on it's like 97 cents you could be like hey i'm gonna you know buy this all usd off the market because it's at a discount right now and i can pay off my

debt for cheap like for cheaper than i would have been able to otherwise um so that is a pegging module or mechanism right there and then there's just like you know arbitrage through the transmitter is the other uh aspect right there that helps uh balance the peg out and the fact that like you know instead of like people paying 12 you know for interest you know we're having that 12 percent paid by urine essentially and then that's going into the transmitter so that that's the transmitter the money in there is sort of like this buffer that says like hey if you know the pig is is you know you know at risk then people are going to go in the transmitter and then you know use that as the method to you know convert

their isd or they're going to arbit from the curve pool and stuff like that and make money off of it and those those uh together they they all you know so far everything seems to be indicating that those uh those mechanisms are working uh to maintain the peg for it i think one of the other things that makes uh dipeg so strong and susd always have a premium is the fact that you know they are in demand assets and d and d phi whether that's through yield farming or you know uh using them as um assets and other things um or in other protocols i think that's what you know is driving the the high price for you know the premium for a die and the premium for uh susd is the fact that

they're useful and they're used everywhere and i think if we can get that going for uh isd then you know we'll have we'll take care of the demand side of it even stronger so is this going to be enough to incentivize and keep the peg strong long term i am leaning towards yes but i guess we won't really know until the bear market hits and we'll see what happens to the yields on chains like my worry is the fields go up like under five percent i think we would still be fine at around five percent but under five percent is where i might start getting i might start to worry about the effectiveness of the system and the safety of it so not the safety but more the stability of it but i think if we take care of the

demand side then all the other fears about deep hanging are going to you know be diminished significantly doesn't this also creates like a free you can leverage on like your urine yields so like because if let's say i take it i take my die put it in alchemics borrow 50 of all usd but now if the al usd is trading at one to one with die i could go trade that for more die put that in alchemix again and take out al usd and i can keep doing this process again and again and i'm essentially going to be earning i i basically got a free 2x leverage on my die

and this means i just doubled my urine earnings right yes so that that would uh mean the same thing yes you you can lever up to 2x the efficiency gets down every single step imagine that you start at a 100 you're trying to get to 200 so your next step is 150 then from 150 and go to 175 then you can go to 187 and then you know there so like you know it depends on your your size um and how efficient that's going to be uh but yes that is something you can do that's also why we have a 200 uh collateralization ratio if it were um any less then this recursive uh you know borrowing strategy

could easily go up to like five six seven eight x and that that would be you know i think unfair for other users in the system because essentially they would be um taking yield from other people if that makes sense how does the equilibrium of this work out like is the rational thing for everyone to do is that everyone should be doing this right and then what happens if everyone does this do does this does the yearn earnings per die just half what's the equilibrium of this scenario it seems like it's something that everyone should be doing by default in fact urine itself should be doing i don't i disagree with that i don't think

everyone should be doing that by default um but anyway let me let me get to that so if like you're involved with i think what makes them special and different from other yield aggregators is that they're scalable because they can add any arbitrary amount of strategies to their vault and that allows it so like you know no one yield provider gets overwhelmed by by yearns tbl coming into it and you know we've seen like when we first started the the yv die vault had like i think like 20 or 30 million in it and now it has over 600 million in it and yet the yields have still held up very very very well and i attribute yearns brilliance and engineering and their strategist for uh making that happen so i don't think the

the yield of the year the yields from urine would collapse in that scenario but what would happen is the yields in alchemics would go down because right now there is um we have the transmitter um in the the dye that that's holding in the yield that that's uh passing on to it and right now uh there's about you know a similar amount of dye in the transmuter that's in the alchemist vaults and because of that it's basically doubling urines apy because we have like twice the amount of principle and if a lot of people were doing this uh leveraged recursive leverage strategy then it would throw that balance out and be make it a little bit more heavier towards the

vault side instead of the transmitter side and because of that that would lower the relative amount of principle that the uh the transmitter has in relation to the vault which would lower uh yields for everybody in the system uh but it wouldn't lower the income of the system in fact that would probably go up um if there was more in the uh the you know more aggregate die in the system and you know that that diet that they're borrowing and that they're leveraging and everything like that that's still locked as collateral so that's going to be sending yield to the transmitter this whole while and everything like that so that uh should work out as long as like the collateralization ratio isn't uh too low then i don't think this uh

recursive strategy is is damaging to the system uh but if everyone were to do it it could have some unintended consequences and maybe destabilize the peg temporarily at times in my opinion i think long term it might actually be healthier for the peg because that means there's more dye locked in the system and more guaranteed you know yield coming into it so it's not quite a neutral thing it's slightly negative but not that negative for the for people to be using the strategy in my opinion and i also think that like you know speculating on all coins you know or or trying to farm and other stable coins using the the stuff that you borrow

is is also you know really popular and viable strategy so i don't see a lot of people doing the recursive strategy one question i had was about community uh obviously having a token alcx token so quickly kind of community is one of the most important things for alchemics long-term success how do you think about like attracting a community keeping people very engaged and you you've mentioned the team a few times how do you see like the team as distinct from the community and what's your long-term plans for for decentralization and

and governance for alchemics so we love our community we have a discord and um we try to make our discord a lightly moderated place um so people can have fun and they can you know post and enjoy in there and we have lots of funny and silly emojis in there that people use and stuff like that so we our community is really good our we have a community manager um gorby who set up our discord and um we engage with them um like daily i get in there answer questions and post along with everyone else we actually even have a sub community that was created inside of alchemics they're called the younts and uh they just theorize like all this degen stuff that you can do with

alchemics and other apps in connection with alchemics and stuff like that and they just see that they post about it in a uh d-gen channel in our discord one way that we uh engage them is that you know like us in the core team like we might come up with like a plan or an outline of uh some things that we're gonna do or some changes that we make but then we'll uh we'll go to the community and our discord in our forum and uh we'll ask for comments and then you know we'll launch into a big debate and then we'll try to find consensus among everybody and then um you know once we have some good options or we have consensus we'll take it to uh the snapshot to to make it official and then we'll execute uh you know

in accordance with the community's wishes at that time um it's a little bit centralized but i think we're doing a pretty good job of involving our community um and keeping them in the loop and keeping them involved with uh you know making decisions and i think that's good for um you know getting them involved in keeping them sticky in our community occasionally i'll go in there and i'll we have a tip bot and i'll make it rain if i'm feeling generous especially like if somebody's contributing if i notice somebody has been like in our support channel and like you know been helping out a bunch of newcomers like you know i'll i'll throw them a tip or somebody makes a really dank meme i'll throw them a tip things like that and i think stuff like that and people seeing like just like kind of random

acts of generosity inspire other people to do that so like what i've seen now is like people i've tipped for their work in the protocol are now tipping other people so it's like this sort of like generous or this virtuous cycle going on and i think that's helping our community uh a lot going forward uh for alcoholics and how we're going to decentralize is uh later this year we're going to be launching alchemic style and that's going to basically remove the devs stranglehold on power as we're going to ditch the the multi-sig you know in snapshot format and it's going to go straight to like on-chain governance and everything like that and at that point anything we want to do like we're not going to be able to force

anything everything's going to have to go through the dow for better or worse and we're going to go into that right now we're still like in our early phase in our growth phase and i think having the the multi-sig and time lock and the flexibility of that is better allows us to move a little bit faster and you know conduct deals and things like that and help us get started but we're planning to grow up and get our community becoming the owners of the protocol itself and the dow hopefully the down designing is going to be highly engaging and get everybody in there and and active and give them reason to to be active as well and so tell us a bit about your uh exiting news oh god man i'm a type of

machine stop that my exiting views my what i'm excited about or what i'm exiting about yeah just curious to learn about like you know what so you know you guys did a raise after sort of the launch of the token and protocol and stuff so you know really interested to learn about like how that process goes and like you know it is you know most teams tend to usually do like raise money from investors pre-launch of a token so how how did that process differ especially when you know you guys are also like you know and on and stuff and so what was the fun what was this like very unique fundraising process like yeah so this all started because um

before we launched alchemics um i i needed to have like a job done to help us uh get the everything ready before launch and so i contracted another developer and said hey can you get this done for me um it's urgent and it's a little bit beyond my skill level and i said sure it's like yeah and i told him at the time back when before we launched when i thought the price of an alcx token was like 15 bucks uh yeah i'll pay you 100 alcx to get this job done [Laughter] and then after we launched we mooned and at the time i sent this guy his 100 alcx alcx was worth i think like 800 so what i thought was going to be like a 1500 payment turned into like an 80 000

payment and then the guy i sent it to um he cashed it out like immediately and sold it for uh for i think eth and um then people were monitoring the dev wallets they're like the devs are rugging the devs are rugging and i'm like no no i just promised somebody a payment before we launched and i'm just making good on my word and uh because of that we we realized that we were like under a microscope every single thing that we were doing any movement of our funds uh everything was gonna be heavily scrutinized and we thought like if we're gonna you know we like in our a lot of our team was still working uh a day job at the time we had been developing this in our spare time

since uh you know mid-summer so for the team to quit their day jobs they'd have to cash out some alcx in order to have enough funds to you know support them and their families and stuff and seeing the reaction to the market and the community when you know i i sent those tokens to the other dev who cashed them out and they thought that we were rugging i was like we have to we have it we have to find a different way luckily i'm in um eagle capital and they were one of our uh like they contributed to our initial liquidity pool on sushi swap and there's they have a lot of people in there that are traders and developers that are really really well connected into the ecosystem and i asked them it's like hey do you

think you could help us try to find some otc partners because we thought if we want otc um you know we wouldn't have the these problems with people freaking out thinking that we were rugging and stuff like that and dumping on sushi so they hooked us up with a number of players in the space that were all interested in getting alcx anyway and we struck out a deal at the time the the price of alcx was like 750 or 800 and we you know we settled on a price of 700 for the otc so overall pretty good the investors uh they got in a slight discount and we didn't uh you know dump the market so i think it was a pretty good win-win situation and those funds allowed the team to uh you know quit their day jobs completely

so and go full time so that was really important for us um and then during those negotiations some other investors jumped in and said hey we'd also like to lead a strategic round um without chemics and so we worked out a deal with them and that was using the the dao's funds itself so that seated our dow with over three million dollars of capital um so it's giving us a lot of flexibility for you know paying for audits and other expenses that are coming up as well between those two deals uh you know the team is taken care of and the the protocol is in good shape going forward i think if our app wasn't compelling and novel and something new we probably

would not have ever been offered this uh these deals so i think that that's you know you know is a very flattering and very nice you know for our protocol that they would consider to invest in anonymous devs i also think that maybe because i have a little bit of clout reputation in the space and i'm connected to you know people like eagle capital that that also probably made investors a little bit more comfortable uh investing with us so you know i don't know if other anons could pull this off they might not be as you know as connected as scoopy troops is can you tell us a little bit about what egirl capital is yeah we're a just a it's just a group of um

anons and and people who we have a couple docs members as well um and so we are like we together we form like we're all our own individual lps um and together we we form our own little kind of like ad hoc uh decentralized vc not really decentralized uh we're not a dow or anything like that per se but um uh we try to find ecosystem projects that are interesting to us um that are cool we're not just like there to you know invest in things and flip it and take profits and stuff like that but we want to find uh projects that we think are cool or move the space forward and then we pull our funds together and we invest and so far we've done radical alchemics

unisocks um that was more of a liquid token investment and arbitrarum and yet yes so those are the the investments that we have as eager right now we we've actually turned down a lot of things it's just because uh you know we wanted to kind of distinguish ourselves as people you know who are more allies of the ecosystem instead of people were just out there to you know make a quick buck and flip uh tokens and stuff like that that's a very eclectic uh set of investments i guess it fits for a very eclectic set of uh lps it's it's very very eclectic like the eagle chat is just a really wild and random place where we go

from talking to defy to talking to to women and girls and then we talk about um and then we talk about like djen's trading and then you know insider news like all sorts of stuff just gets talked about there and it's like you know because there's a few devs in there there's myself included we have uh professional traders uh people you know like ciel um you know and jeff wang um and we also have just like d5 power users like uh spartan is in there as well so like it's just a very good eclectic mix we actually have some girls in egirl um shout out to ava baylen uh she's really you know helped us organize and turn it into a reality

before her we were just e-girls and now we are e-queens so it's a really fun place it's really cool it's exciting um and it's definitely been something that's uh you know helped alchemics because you know they've been able to connect us with a lot of good people that have helped us as well yeah and i think we're coming up to near the end of our time um so is any you know i guess you already talked a little bit about the future of uh alchemics but is there anything else you want you know the listeners to know about and what's coming up next for uh alcomix yeah so um there's actually a lot of stuff coming up right now our audit um just got back uh we're just

sending it back to our auditor real quick to get it finalized and everything like that um everything came back uh looking good um and that's gonna give us the green light to get on to curve.5 um also getting insurance options for alchemics so those are some developments that are going to coming in sometime over the next week or so and then shortly thereafter we're going to be launching al eth so you know towards the end of may there's going to be a decent amount of stuff coming uh going on with alchemix then we'll probably have a little bit of a quiet period as we are going heads down on uh getting v2 ready for launch um you know sometime towards the end of july or early august is what we're aiming for um so yeah that's that's uh the next few months of

alchemics right there um if there's any more developments we'll be sure to to tweet them very loudly from our twitter yeah thanks so much scoopy uh how can users get started if they want to interact with alchemics yeah so you can go to alchemix.5 that's our our homepage they can there's links to the app there and uh you know the app is uh i think pretty straight forward to use there's tutorial videos linked on the website itself and if that's too hard uh then find us on discord and get involved or ask questions on there and you know there'll be plenty of people there willing to help you out all right cool thanks so much thank you for joining us on this week's episode we release new episodes

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